Is marriage a defunct institution?

[Nostalgia375]

In my observation, very few people have blissful marriages. Do you think marriage is a defunct institution?

[MarkBastable]

In my observation, very few people have blissful marriages. Do you think marriage is a defunct institution?


Are you suggesting that in some golden past, all marriages were blissful? And if so, what makes you think that? And in either case, what's the blissfulness or otherwise got to to with the potential defunctness - unless you think the only purpose of marriage is bliss, in which case you'd have to prove that it used to cause bliss before but it's now stopped doing so.

[BookBeauty]

I think that, for many, marriage is defined by the wedding, and many couples expect that to be a huge catalyst that will change everything and make their relationship perfect and somehow unbreakable.

In reality, I think that a marriage is simply a symbol, much like the ring you wear, of your status of being with another person, and nothing more. It doesn't truly change the relationship, or at least, it most certainly shouldn't.

In this day and age, for the most part, it's more of a custom and a tradition for most, and something to aspire towards. I think that whether you're married to the person you love and know you're going to be with, or not,
shouldn't really make a difference in your relationship with that person.

And, as has been implied by MarkBastable, a marriage is a bit more complicated than a state of pure bliss, whether from the past, or the present. But, I think I understand the discussion you want to circulate. I think marriages can continue-- Why not? Whether people are married or not, as I've said, doesn't really change their status. They are with someone, or they are not. In many cases, because things aren't always, 'blissful', they separate. That's their business. But, I'm fairly certain that most either go into the relationship not really knowing what they're going into and/or go into the relationship and expect it to be blissful all the time. :D

[Nostalgia375]

Are you suggesting that in some golden past, all marriages were blissful? And if so, what makes you think that? And in either case, what's the blissfulness or otherwise got to to with the potential defunctness - unless you think the only purpose of marriage is bliss, in which case you'd have to prove that it used to cause bliss before but it's now stopped doing so.


I live in the present!

[MarkBastable]

I live in the present!

Maybe so. But the word 'defunct' implies the passage of time. In order to be defunct in the present, there has to have been some use in the past.

So - what use did marriage have, in your opinion, which, if it has been lost, would make marriage defunct.

[Nostalgia375]

Maybe so. But the word 'defunct' implies the passage of time. In order to be defunct in the present, there has to have been some use in the past.

So - what use did marriage have, in your opinion, which, if it has been lost, would make marriage defunct.


I would stick to the past, there was certainly one overt usefulness, and that was having vanilla sex and still being respected for it.

[MarkBastable]

I would stick to the past, there was certainly one overt usefulness, and that was having vanilla sex and still being respected for it.

I'm not even going to ask you why you're so certain that in the past all married people had vanilla sex. I mean, for all I know, my parents might have been having wild raspberry ripple sex all over the place.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I've never really understood marriage. It seems to me a antiquated notion that is encouraged by religious institutions, and yet we see atheists getting married all the time. Does it somehow make you in love more? As someone pointed out . . . no, it usually doesn't. The only real reason I can think of getting married is for tax purposes.

Plus, I think a lot of women dream about their fabulous wedding.

[smerdyakov]

This man has some interesting things to say on the subject :):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXpsT3e8UsM

[KCurtis]

In my observation, very few people have blissful marriages. Do you think marriage is a defunct institution?

No. I've been married for 28 years. To expect a marriage to be blissful all the time is not realistic, and to blame the spouse for it not being blissful all the time is selfish. The marriage ceremony in and of itself is not that important. It is the reason for the marriage that is. Love grows and evolves and changes throughout time, there is difficulty along the way. How can you appreciate wonderful times together if all you have is bliss? The difficulties make you appreciate the stronger bond that comes from that. To be there for someone you love in times of happiness and sadness and anger is a proud accomplishment. And have fun along the way. Love for someone is supposed to grow over time- and there are times when I thought I didn't like my husband very much, and there were a few years where he didn't get much of a Christmas present. I'm glad I stuck with it- he is an imperfect person, but the most decent one I know.
Leaving one's dirty underwear around isn't very sexy, either is living with one's annoyances. But having a true companion who you love and can talk about silly things with means more in the long run.

[MarkBastable]

No. I've been married for 28 years. To expect a marriage to be blissful all the time is not realistic, and to blame the spouse for it not being blissful all the time is selfish. The marriage ceremony in and of itself is not that important. It is the reason for the marriage that is. Love grows and evolves and changes throughout time, there is difficulty along the way. How can you appreciate wonderful times together if all you have is bliss? The difficulties make you appreciate the stronger bond that comes from that. To be there for someone you love in times of happiness and sadness and anger is a proud accomplishment. And have fun along the way. Love for someone is supposed to grow over time- and there are times when I thought I didn't like my husband very much, and there were a few years where he didn't get much of a Christmas present. I'm glad I stuck with it- he is an imperfect person, but the most decent one I know.
Leaving one's dirty underwear around isn't very sexy, either is living with one's annoyances. But having a true companion who you love and can talk about silly things with means more in the long run.

True. More to the point, this is nothing to do with marriage. It's just to do with relationships. If people think that the point of marriage is to make you happy in ways that living together won't, they're always going to suggest marriage is ultimately pointless, because it'll fail to do that.

[Helga]

Plus, I think a lot of women dream about their fabulous wedding.

I don't dream about my wedding or having some fabulous ceremony, but if I'd ever get married I like this idea:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBwXl-fGjN8

now that's a wedding


in general I am not a marriage person but if you expect it to make your relationship better your going down the wrong path, also if you expect it to be happiness all the time cause no relationship of any kind can be that.

[Darcy88]

Judging by what I see looking around me I'd say yes, marriage is a defunct institution. People are having kids without getting married, married people are getting divorced. I see it everywhere. I don't know what happened. I'm sure it wasn't always like this. Maybe its because women are working and have more freedom. They aren't stuck in marriages the way they used to be. And perhaps much of the time a woman now spends at work was once spent helping make the marriage work.

I view it as a lamentable trend. I either won't get married or I'll marry a young woman from some foreign culture where marriage is still respected. Nearly every marriage to take place among my family and acquaintances during my life-time have ended in divorce. I don't see the point.

[Alexander III]

I either won't get married or I'll marry a young woman from some foreign culture where marriage is still respected.

Oh, that is adorbaly naive - trust me, they will **** you over far worse than a western gal.

A bunch of western men get a oriental wife because they lack looks and charm and money, but they all end up badly, because if you lack looks and charm she only marries you for money, and she will bleed you dry. I lived a considerbale amount of time in South East Asia, and I travelled the region, and it's allways the same story. White man can't get pretty white woman - so he thinks that he will find one from the orient and she shall love him, she makes him think she loves him - as soon as they get married she bleeds his wallet dry and then leaves him for a man she can actualy love, or a richer man.

But these are the poor oriental women, the rich oriental women won't even look at you unless you are of equall social position as them.

[cacian]

marriage is an institution full stop.
an institution is usually forced upon a culture without their prior consent and therefore is a dated concept that plays no major/important role in society.
I consider a pain which by default makes it redundant as far as I am concerned, with all due respect to those who enjoy and believe in marriage.

[MarkBastable]

an institution is usually forced upon a culture without their prior consent and therefore is a dated concept that plays no major/important role in society.


Even by your inimitable standards, that sentence is a spaghetti of breathtaking generalisation, unsupported opinion, logical fallacy and almost surreal nonsequitur.

[Darcy88]

Oh, that is adorbaly naive - trust me, they will **** you over far worse than a western gal.

A bunch of western men get a oriental wife because they lack looks and charm and money, but they all end up badly, because if you lack looks and charm she only marries you for money, and she will bleed you dry. I lived a considerbale amount of time in South East Asia, and I travelled the region, and it's allways the same story. White man can't get pretty white woman - so he thinks that he will find one from the orient and she shall love him, she makes him think she loves him - as soon as they get married she bleeds his wallet dry and then leaves him for a man she can actualy love, or a richer man.

But these are the poor oriental women, the rich oriental women won't even look at you unless you are of equall social position as them.

I don't lack looks or charm and I have no problem getting "pretty white women." I'm just weary of marrying a Western girl, having kids, and then it not working out a couple years down the line. Maybe it is naive for me to think it would be any different with a girl from another culture. I just thought a girl from Catholic South America, or the Muslim Middle East, or some other culture, might have a different conception of what it means to be wed.

My area is full of mennonites. Maybe I'll try my luck with one of them.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Even by your inimitable standards, that sentence is a spaghetti of breathtaking generalisation, unsupported opinion, logical fallacy and almost surreal nonsequitur.

Zing!

[Paulclem]

Marriage is a act full of optimism about your relationship with another person. The contract is not binding these days - (good) - so there's a get out clause, and, though many marriages fail, only the most unsuitable were not successful for a time.

It would be foolish to think that a marriage will last no matter what - anything can happen - but having someone you know well, whom you can trust, with which you can share all the good times and holidays and kids and grandkids is pretty good.

[cacian]

Even by your inimitable standards, that sentence is a spaghetti of breathtaking generalisation, unsupported opinion, logical fallacy and almost surreal nonsequitur.

Humm..you can't beat a spag bowl though!! it is better then marriage anytime;)

[Darcy88]

I was right. The rate of divorce in other countries is significantly below that of Canada, the United States, Australia, and most countries in Western Europe. And I found one study which showed that the lower rate holds for Western men who marry women from most of those cultures.

[KCurtis]

True. More to the point, this is nothing to do with marriage. It's just to do with relationships. If people think that the point of marriage is to make you happy in ways that living together won't, they're always going to suggest marriage is ultimately pointless, because it'll fail to do that.
Well, since this "Is marriage a defunct institution?" was the title of the thread, I thought it was about marriage. Also, how do you know marriage will fail to make you happy in ways that living together won't? And again, while that may be true for you and others, you don't have any idea of what is true for me and others who are married.

[MarkBastable]

Well, since this "Is marriage a defunct institution?" was the title of the thread, I thought it was about marriage. Also, how do you know marriage will fail to make you happy in ways that living together won't? And again, while that may be true for you and others, you don't have any idea of what is true for me and others who are married.


Hang on. I'm only saying that the stuff you talked about - the growth of love, the tolerance, the sadness and all that - is not peculiar to marriage. It's true of all long-standing relationships.

Those who knock marriage seem to be saying that because marriage doesn't necessarily make you happy, there's something wrong with it.

I'm just saying that if you expect marriage to make you happy in some way that not-being-married won't - then you might be disappointed, because marriage isn't a magic spell for happiness - but that's not a reason to say that marriage is defunct.

So, I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I'm saying that you're right about how long, successful relationships tend to go - and my only addition is that long and successful relationships tend to go that way whether you're married or not.

It's not an argument against marriage. It's an argument for sticking with relationships.

[KCurtis]

I view it as a lamentable trend. I either won't get married or I'll marry a young woman from some foreign culture where marriage is still respected. Nearly every marriage to take place among my family and acquaintances during my life-time have ended in divorce. I don't see the point.
So what if people around you are getting divorced. All the friends (except for one) my husband and I had got divorced. We didn't, we just trudged on day after day, enjoying each others company, went to work, came home, had a son, had good times and bad. As the days accumulated, and became years, we realized how long we have been together. We wanted to be together, so we are. It's really that simple.


Hang on. I'm only saying that the stuff you talked about - the growth of love, the tolerance, the sadness and all that - is not peculiar to marriage. It's true of all long-standing relationships.

Those who knock marriage seem to be saying that because marriage doesn't necessarily make you happy, there's something wrong with it.

I'm just saying that if you expect marriage to make you happy in some way that not-being-married won't - then you might be disappointed, because marriage isn't a magic spell for happiness - but that's not a reason to say that marriage is defunct.

So, I'm not disagreeing with you. In fact, I'm saying that you're right about how long, successful relationships tend to go - and my only addition is that long and successful relationships tend to go that way whether you're married or not.

It's not an argument against marriage. It's an argument for sticking with relationships.
Oh...... that's what you meant. Okay, I agree. And no, getting married won't make an unhappy relationship better. And yes, I agree that you don't have to be married to have a long term relationship. Also, there are many gay people (before the new marriage laws) who have and had decades of happiness with a partner.

[NikolaiI]

Nostalgia, in reply to your very cogent, thoughtful and conversation-sparking question .... ....

Anyway - I'm an "idealist" when it comes to love, although I hesitate to use a term like that, because I don't think it quite describes who I am. But in the sense that I do believe in the possibility of extremely beautiful and blissful love, I am an "optimist." Marriage is cultural, but it isn't always portrayed idealistically. In fact, it's often portrayed very negatively, in many different contexts. In the end I think anything is possible. While it won't always be blissful, life can be incredibly beautiful, and it has periods that are mostly blissful. :smile5:

I know that people can be married and grow every day of their lives together, and love each other deeply their whole lives. It's possible, and it even should be the norm. We've evolved so far to where we are now, it is easy to envision a future humankind that has solved many of the more elusive sociological and existential problems that we currently face.

[Darcy88]

I know that people can be married and grow every day of their lives together, and love each other deeply their whole lives. It's possible, and it even should be the norm. We've evolved so far to where we are now, it is easy to envision a future humankind that has solved many of the more elusive sociological and existential problems that we currently face.

I praise you for your optimism but I unfortunately do not share it. If anything it seems to me that we are devolving, especially when it comes to marriage, seeing as how the rate of divorce has skyrocketed in the West, currently sitting round about 50 percent in many nations.

[Calidore]

I praise you for your optimism but I unfortunately do not share it. If anything it seems to me that we are devolving, especially when it comes to marriage, seeing as how the rate of divorce has skyrocketed in the West, currently sitting round about 50 percent in many nations.

The rate of divorce has risen, but has the number of marriages that shouldn't have happened risen, or are people just feeling less bound to stay in marriages that are loveless or even abusive?

[Darcy88]

The rate of divorce has risen, but has the number of marriages that shouldn't have happened risen, or are people just feeling less bound to stay in marriages that are loveless or even abusive?

I think that has a lot to do with it. I said earlier that women are working now and so if their husbands cheat on them or beat them they now have options and aren't trapped. I have a lot of theories. The obesity pandemic can't be helping much to combat marital dissatisfaction. All our distractions - video games, computers, screen of all sorts - have to be playing some role.

[OrphanPip]

I remember reading an article in Time a while ago that said that statistics suggest that the educated and the upper middle class were more likely to have successful marriages. Apparently, this statistic improved even more when the wife had a similar level of education to her spouse.

Also, in general poor people are a lot less likely to bother with marriage at all, and is becoming an increasingly middle class cultural phenomena.

(Edit: the divorce rate in Canada is actually 38% according to Statistics Canada though)

(Edit2: Also, if you look only at first time marriages you have a fairly good chance (between 60-70%) of having a lifelong marriage, the likelihood of your success at marriage decreases if you've had one divorce already)

[KCurtis]

I praise you for your optimism but I unfortunately do not share it. If anything it seems to me that we are devolving, especially when it comes to marriage, seeing as how the rate of divorce has skyrocketed in the West, currently sitting round about 50 percent in many nations.

And what are the other 50% doing? As one in the other 50%, I don't think about the 50% who are divorced, I just live my life.

[BienvenuJDC]

And what are the other 50% doing? As one in the other 50%, I don't think about the 50% who are divorced, I just live my life.

I'm soon to be divorced (not by my will), but I agree with you. I will remarry eventually. I will stay true to my vows. I will live according to my own word. Marriage is a commitment and should be respected as such. When people agree to just live together, they make no commitment.

[KCurtis]

I'm soon to be divorced (not by my will), but I agree with you. I will remarry eventually. I will stay true to my vows. I will live according to my own word. Marriage is a commitment and should be respected as such. When people agree to just live together, they make no commitment.
I think some people who aren't married make that commitment. It's just a different way of thinking. Many gay people I believe have that same commitment, and have for hundreds of years.

[BienvenuJDC]

I think some people who aren't married make that commitment. It's just a different way of thinking. Many gay people I believe have that same commitment, and have for hundreds of years.

I guess I had a particular attitude in mind when I said "just live together". Often times we hear, "We if it doesn't work out, we'll just split." That is an attitude that I've never adopted. This isn't to assume that there aren't those who are living together don't make a commitment. It's just easier to break that commitment more and more these days.

[KCurtis]

I guess I had a particular attitude in mind when I said "just live together". Often times we hear, "We if it doesn't work out, we'll just split." That is an attitude that I've never adopted. This isn't to assume that there aren't those who are living together don't make a commitment. It's just easier to break that commitment more and more these days.
That is definitely true. I never had that attitude either. I'm sorry for your divorce.

[Darcy88]

And what are the other 50% doing? As one in the other 50%, I don't think about the 50% who are divorced, I just live my life.

I see where you're coming from. Its just that I look around me and see marriages failing like ripe falling fruit, and I feel apprehension towards the fate of my own future marriage. I take the "from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part" thing very seriously but it seems many do not.

[BookBeauty]

In my opinion, if you're going to get married, or choose that you want to live your life with someone, you should know that person's it for you.

If you let them go, then you should live with loyalty towards them even as you part, and live your life on your own. That is the most honourable thing to do, to me.

It's a very traditional viewpoint, but I think that our relationships with people are precious.

It seems to me that people have an increasingly flippant, flighty view of marriage and relationships, that you can just turn them on and off like a switch. ''Oh, if I don't like him/her, it's just a stepping stone towards my perfect partner, my Soul Mate! I can just go and be with someone else and see if they fit the bill.''

And that kind of attitude is not progressive for our society as a whole.

Honestly, if you can get along with the person you're with, there's no real reason to separate. Love changes, as all things in life do.

We should nurture and cultivate our relationships, and bring together a more eastern-view, that is, to embrace community and family more, instead of becoming disconnected and increasingly unhappy.

[Scheherazade]

We should nurture and cultivate our relationships, and bring together a more eastern-view, that is, to embrace community and family more, instead of becoming disconnected and increasingly unhappy.Are there no unhappy marriages in the East or are they less talked about?

In my opinion, it is rather simple (you are welcome! :D ) : Marriage works for those who want to make it work and does not for those who cannot be bothered to put the effort into it. It is like one's relationship with one's body. You might wish you were thinner, taller, fitter and work at it to keep it that way if you are really bothered; however, by simply wishing to have a fit body will not guarantee you those muscles you yearn for unless you are willing to hit the gym three times a week.

[KCurtis]

I see where you're coming from. Its just that I look around me and see marriages failing like ripe falling fruit, and I feel apprehension towards the fate of my own future marriage. I take the "from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part" thing very seriously but it seems many do not.

I'm glad you do! And you will make sure the person you marry has the same beliefs, and to hell with everyone else!


In my opinion, if you're going to get married, or choose that you want to live your life with someone, you should know that person's it for you.

If you let them go, then you should live with loyalty towards them even as you part, and live your life on your own. That is the most honourable thing to do, to me.

It's a very traditional viewpoint, but I think that our relationships with people are precious.

It seems to me that people have an increasingly flippant, flighty view of marriage and relationships, that you can just turn them on and off like a switch. ''Oh, if I don't like him/her, it's just a stepping stone towards my perfect partner, my Soul Mate! I can just go and be with someone else and see if they fit the bill.''

And that kind of attitude is not progressive for our society as a whole.

Honestly, if you can get along with the person you're with, there's no real reason to separate. Love changes, as all things in life do.

We should nurture and cultivate our relationships, and bring together a more eastern-view, that is, to embrace community and family more, instead of becoming disconnected and increasingly unhappy.

Very well stated, and I agree.

[BookBeauty]

Are there no unhappy marriages in the East or are they less talked about?

Probably bucket loads! Enormous amounts! Same as any other place, or maybe more, I have no idea. That's a separate issue though, and wasn't the point I was trying to make. :)

I simply meant it as an example. In many Western families, and mine is no different, there is more disconnection and there isn't as much importance placed upon community and family. Probably in Eastern families too, nowadays, actually, come to think of it... As technology and popular culture becomes more widespread.

But, there are good examples of community and family working together in the East. I believe I read a news story about the tragic happenings in Japan, and yet there was no looting.

There are advantages and disadvantages everywhere, but we can all benefit from seeing what works and trying to incorporate it into our lives. :)

I do like your example of working with a marriage, as you would with your health, and not simply sitting around wishing for it to happen. It's absolutely true, as far as I'm concerned.

And thanks, KCurtis. :)

[Nostalgia375]

Probably bucket loads! Enormous amounts! Same as any other place, or maybe more, I have no idea. That's a separate issue though, and wasn't the point I was trying to make. :)

I simply meant it as an example. In many Western families, and mine is no different, there is more disconnection and there isn't as much importance placed upon community and family. Probably in Eastern families too, nowadays, actually, come to think of it... As technology and popular culture becomes more widespread.

But, there are good examples of community and family working together in the East. I believe I read a news story about the tragic happenings in Japan, and yet there was no looting.

There are advantages and disadvantages everywhere, but we can all benefit from seeing what works and trying to incorporate it into our lives. :)

I do like your example of working with a marriage, as you would with your health, and not simply sitting around wishing for it to happen. It's absolutely true, as far as I'm concerned.

And thanks, KCurtis. :)


The East is following the trends of the West, but still the family and the community are important issues here--however, it is not goody goody all the time. Many times, marriages fail because of family and community.

[Pensive]

We have a saying here 'joray aasmaanon pe bante hain' which can be translated as 'marriages are made in heaven' but I read this book where it said (it's not a personal favorite of mine, actually far from that, but this quote regarding marriages did quite catch my fancy):
Who says marriages are made in heaven? Marriages are made on earth, by earthlings for purely earthly reasons the top-most being money.

Despite of that, I don't think marriages are going to die anytime soon. I believe so because of religious and cultural reasons as well as the human need for bonding and attraction towards permanence of things. The need of belonging. And I also don't agree they were more blissful in the earlier times. Just because people were 'made' to tolerate each other better or divorce was not as acceptable as it is today does not actually make the marriages more blissful. Quite on the contrary, in my humble opinion.

[kiki1982]

I think what Pensive says is true: in the past, people maybe stayed married because it was done, but were not the happier for it.

However, these days it seems that once there is a disagreement (or even worse, that one partner at least is no longer 'in love') that the marriage is over. Why? I think Victor Meldrew in One Foot in the Grave puts it nicely when he says that 'marriage is spraying each other with [a medical pain-killing spray] when you've hurt your back'. In the long term things become routine, but it does not mean that your partner is not worth it. My hubby and I have had our ups and downs and actually he is turning into a kind of Victor Meldrew (complaining all the time), and I once had a crush when things were not going well, but I decided he was worth more as a person and a best friend. I could have walked away, but I didn't feel that was right. We have worked on it. One has to be realistic about things: things will not be the same as in the beginning.

What is actually the difference between living together long term and marriage? On a purely earthly level that is, leaving religious or cultural obligations to one side. If you live together in the long term, you have also bought a house or are renting a place, you have children, you have acquired things together (sofas and that kind of thing), you maybe have joint savings (that is something you can rule out from the start but people do tend to get complaisant about these things) etc. So the money thing crops up anyway. Unless you both contribute as much in terms of money: you both contribute exactly half of the warranty for the house, exactly half of registration fees, cover exactly half of the mortgage on it, or cover exactly half of the rent, you each cover exactly half of operational costs (electricity, taxes, gas, water, insurance), exactly half of anything you buy, eat, holidays, etc. etc. marriage is no different from living together. And then still, it is not because you can contribute half of exactly everything that you can actually afford the full hog.

I suppose I don't have to say that mainly women decide to stay at home a little more for the children or take less well-paying jobs and then the 50%-thing goes out of the window altogether. And if your partner earns more than you, does he have more right to the house or not? Are you going to split every single thing you buy your little daughter/son?

I seem to remember that someone said something about weddings earlier. I will say this: I got married with a big party for 120 people, paid for by myself/us, but a cheap wedding dress which I regret. Actually I both regret it. The money could have been better spent than on a party you do not enjoy. Fewer people (you don't notice them anyway) would have been OK. It's actually the most useless day you can pay for: you spend the first part running around/getting nervous and the second part being spoken to by everyone. Before you know it it's evening and what have you had from it? I say, go for a nice dinner, invite only those people who care about you and whom you often hear or see, have a nice service and go on a nice holiday with the rest of your €15,000.

[Delta40]

Kiki when you said leaving religious or cultural obligations to one side, did you also mean the formal ceremony where people take vows to honour each other? For some people, like me it's about values rather than religious or cultural reasons. I would never enter into a defacto relationship with a man since my personal experiences taught me that if I'm good enough to fill the role of a psuedo wife, then I'm obviously good enough to marry so why settle for less?

That doesn't mean I condemn others who choose to live together because that is entirely their business. It simply means defacto relationships are not right for me because if we can't make a binding lifetime comittment to each other, then I have no earthly reason living with a man pretending that we have.

[MarkBastable]

I would never enter into a defacto relationship with a man since my personal experiences taught me that if I'm good enough to fill the role of a psuedo wife, then I'm obviously good enough to marry so why settle for less?

..so you do think that not-being-married is 'less'.

[kiki1982]

Kiki when you said leaving religious or cultural obligations to one side, did you also mean the formal ceremony where people take vows to honour each other? For some people, like me it's about values rather than religious or cultural reasons. I would never enter into a defacto relationship with a man since my personal experiences taught me that if I'm good enough to fill the role of a psuedo wife, then I'm obviously good enough to marry so why settle for less?

That doesn't mean I condemn others who choose to live together because that is entirely their business. It simply means defacto relationships are not right for me because if we can't make a binding lifetime comittment to each other, then I have no earthly reason living with a man pretending that we have.

I meant leaving the obligation to marry to be together or to be considered as a couple to one side. One can commit oneself without the whole public shabang or even without the private shabang, but if that is what you wish, then that is your choice. [edit] I forgot to mention that we committed ourselves publically too (in church).

My only point was that the assumption that 'one can get out more easily' in a non-commitment relationship (i.e. living together) is not really true.

[Nostalgia375]

We have a saying here 'joray aasmaanon pe bante hain' which can be translated as 'marriages are made in heaven' but I read this book where it said (it's not a personal favorite of mine, actually far from that, but this quote regarding marriages did quite catch my fancy):

Despite of that, I don't think marriages are going to die anytime soon. I believe so because of religious and cultural reasons as well as the human need for bonding and attraction towards permanence of things. The need of belonging. And I also don't agree they were more blissful in the earlier times. Just because people were 'made' to tolerate each other better or divorce was not as acceptable as it is today does not actually make the marriages more blissful. Quite on the contrary, in my humble opinion.


Pensive, I am in agreement with you regarding the impact of religion and culture on the future of marriage. However, I am sceptical about the statement, "Human need for bonding and attraction towards the permanence of things".

[Arrowni]

I suscribe to the idea that marriage is a negociation or a mark of civic alliance, only to evade the upcoming economic definition. Think Vico Giammbatista, we suscribe marriage to a religious notion because it was one of the institutions that allowed to build most civilizations.

If families are part of human evolution, the current lack of stability in nuclear families kind of points out to a certain change in the status quo of mariages. Mostly because the society has built isolated men and women, which has defined our very notion of community and society. So in short, mariage ARE having a crisis, but that doesn't mean they were an intitution built upon bliss and love.

[stephofthenight]

marrige=waste of time, loss of independence and absolute misery. Enough said.

[Arrowni]

I can see some advantages in losing independance and wasting your time, so you must be suggesting that marriage is good as long as you're miserable to begin with and that you intend to keep being miserable.

Funny thing, in those conditions marriage would hold up!

[Maximilianus]

Many people show their real nature some time after signing the papers, like their incapacity towards commitment for example. Such incapacity was always there, hidden behind a finely deployed web of lies and alike deceits, and marriage acts as a mere detonator of truths, maybe because of the stressful ritual of dwelling under the same ceiling. But probably there's still some truth in some relations, regardless of the presence or absence of legal documents.

[Paulclem]

Many people show their real nature some time after signing the papers, like their incapacity towards commitment for example. Such incapacity was always there, hidden behind a finely deployed web of lies and alike deceits, and marriage acts as a mere detonator of truths, maybe because of the stressful ritual of dwelling under the same ceiling. But probably there's still some truth in some relations, regardless of the presence or absence of legal documents.

Lots of assumptions in there Max. You may well know some people like this, but it would be hard for you to say that you know that many people think this.

I think there's quite a lot of reasons why people get married - money, stability, unrealistic expectations, the idea that things won't really change, friendship and love. It is difficult to really appreciate that marriage can be a lifelong patnership - especially for young people, and maybe that's also a problem.

It also depends upon who you ask. If you are unattached, you wouldn't consider asking your partner to marry you, as they are unsuitable or not of that mind - then you're not going to think much of marriage. If you are unhappily married, or had a difficult divorce, then you are going to have a downer on the whole thing. If you are in love and want to get married to someone, then you'll think it's the best thing since whatever. If you are currently married, the it could go either way. (I'm happily married by the way).

The statistics, as someone has pointed out, still show many couples getting married, and, despite the divorce rate, many stay so, or even re-marry. There's only one certainty - your attitude is very likely going to change, just as mine and the many former unmarried ones did. Oh yes it is...:smile5:

[Maximilianus]

Lots of assumptions in there Max. You may well know some people like this, but it would be hard for you to say that you know that many people think this.
Yes, I was thinking about specific cases I've known of, some of them among my relatives.


I think there's quite a lot of reasons why people get married - money, stability, unrealistic expectations, the idea that things won't really change, friendship and love. It is difficult to really appreciate that marriage can be a lifelong partnership - especially for young people, and maybe that's also a problem.

It also depends upon who you ask. If you are unattached, you wouldn't consider asking your partner to marry you, as they are unsuitable or not of that mind - then you're not going to think much of marriage. If you are unhappily married, or had a difficult divorce, then you are going to have a downer on the whole thing. If you are in love and want to get married to someone, then you'll think it's the best thing since whatever. If you are currently married, the it could go either way. (I'm happily married by the way).

The statistics, as someone has pointed out, still show many couples getting married, and, despite the divorce rate, many stay so, or even re-marry.
Makes sense.


There's only one certainty - your attitude is very likely going to change, just as mine and the many former unmarried ones did. Oh yes it is...:smile5:
I hope it happens sometime before the end http://smiles.kolobok.us/standart/sad.gif

[BienvenuJDC]

If you are unhappily married, or had a difficult divorce, then you are going to have a downer on the whole thing.

I am going through a divorce, but I don't blame "marriage" for that. I put that blame on "her" inability to stay in a committed relationship. I will be ready to do it all over again, once I have found someone that I find suitable. Of course, I will be more cautious this time.

[Paulclem]

Yes, I was thinking about specific cases I've known of, some of them among my relatives.


Makes sense.


I hope it happens sometime before the end http://smiles.kolobok.us/standart/sad.gif

A lot of the couples we've known have also split, which is sad at the time, but they then go on to make a new life for themselves under their own terms.

I hope it happens sometime before the end

Surely mate. :biggrin5:


I am going through a divorce, but I don't blame "marriage" for that. I put that blame on "her" inability to stay in a committed relationship. I will be ready to do it all over again, once I have found someone that I find suitable. Of course, I will be more cautious this time.

I understand - I was generalising. Good luck with that.

[BienvenuJDC]

I understand - I was generalising. Good luck with that.

Yes, I understand what you were meaning. Your generalizations are practical. It's funny how society will often blame an institution (or concept) for failure, when the failure actually occurs due to the improper implementation.

[KCurtis]

marrige=waste of time, loss of independence and absolute misery. Enough said.

Maybe for you. It hasn't been a waste of time for me, no loss of independence and no misery here, after 28 years.
Some people should and want to be single, and I respect that, not everyone thinks alike.

[Maximilianus]

I am going through a divorce, but I don't blame "marriage" for that. I put that blame on "her" inability to stay in a committed relationship. I will be ready to do it all over again, once I have found someone that I find suitable. Of course, I will be more cautious this time.
Quite often what we feel numbs our wits, I think, rendering us unable to see incompatibilities that perhaps would be evident were we free from the sentiment. Better luck next time!


A lot of the couples we've known have also split, which is sad at the time, but they then go on to make a new life for themselves under their own terms.

I hope it happens sometime before the end

Surely mate. :biggrin5:
Thanks for the encouraging feedback, Paul http://smiles.kolobok.us/personal/hi.gif

[BienvenuJDC]

Quite often what we feel numbs our wits, I think, rendering us unable to see incompatibilities that perhaps would be evident were we free from the sentiment. Better luck next time!


Thank you! In all actuality, I believe that I have met her already. But this time, I'm going to employ a "courting" method of getting to know her, and spend the next year (as well as I have spent this past year) to develop the friendship. If it takes two years, then so be it...or even more.

[LadyLuck]

I am going through a divorce, but I don't blame "marriage" for that. I put that blame on "her" inability to stay in a committed relationship. I will be ready to do it all over again, once I have found someone that I find suitable. Of course, I will be more cautious this time.

Sorry to hear this Bien, but I can sympathize as I'm going through one too :ack2:. I myself don't blame the institution of marriage for the failure of mine either. Actually, I don't really blame anyone. Sometimes, I think, love really just isn't enough. Similar morals, parenting styles, financial expectations, goals etc all go a long way to a harmonious marriage. If and when I find the right person, I'll likely jump right back it... Like you, much more cautiously.

[BienvenuJDC]

Sorry to hear this Bien, but I can sympathize as I'm going through one too :ack2:. I myself don't blame the institution of marriage for the failure of mine either. Actually, I don't really blame anyone. Sometimes, I think, love really just isn't enough. Similar morals, parenting styles, financial expectations, goals etc all go a long way to a harmonious marriage. If and when I find the right person, I'll likely jump right back it... Like you, much more cautiously.

One key word that shouldn't be missed in all that is..."expectation"

[LadyLuck]

One key word that shouldn't be missed in all that is..."expectation"

??? I guess I'm thinking along the lines of lifestyle in general. Having similar goals in that are helps, but both parties have to be able to deal with the hard times too. Unfortunately one person often puts the full weight of responsibility for the condition of their life as a couple on the other. Then you get blame and resentment and nothing good comes of it.

[BienvenuJDC]

??? I guess I'm thinking along the lines of lifestyle in general. Having similar goals in that are helps, but both parties have to be able to deal with the hard times too. Unfortunately one person often puts the full weight of responsibility for the condition of their life as a couple on the other. Then you get blame and resentment and nothing good comes of it.


I heard that. I should have seen the writing on the wall being that it was her third marriage, and the failure for everything was primarily on the other person for her first two marriages. I actually believed it all, until I saw how she twisted little things into bigger things in our marriage. I was accused of emotional abuse for disagreeing with her. But all that is water under the bridge now (or is it water over the dam?)

[LadyLuck]

I heard that. I should have seen the writing on the wall being that it was her third marriage, and the failure for everything was primarily on the other person for her first two marriages. I actually believed it all, until I saw how she twisted little things into bigger things in our marriage. I was accused of emotional abuse for disagreeing with her. But all that is water under the bridge now (or is it water over the dam?)

Who knows anymore. I say water under the bridge, but I like "dirt in the grave" too :D

[KCurtis]

Sorry to hear this Bien, but I can sympathize as I'm going through one too :ack2:. I myself don't blame the institution of marriage for the failure of mine either. Actually, I don't really blame anyone. Sometimes, I think, love really just isn't enough. Similar morals, parenting styles, financial expectations, goals etc all go a long way to a harmonious marriage. If and when I find the right person, I'll likely jump right back it... Like you, much more cautiously.
I think you're right, it's not enough. If you ever get married again, you will know this and it will be successful.

[cacian]

an institution set out to make profits out of those who eventually divorce and dictate to those non straight couples that they could not marry under religious command?

discuss

[JuniperWoolf]

Marriage is old, much older than recorded history. Artifacts from pre-history suggest that marriage has existed as long as there's been hierarchical society, and it's existed in literally every single culture, almost every tribe, everywhere. It's not always been about man + woman either, I know off the top of my head that in some places in Africa a woman can be the husband (http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5001384575) and marry another woman, taking on the male roles if there were no other suitable males available or if she was the most suitable for the husband role. This practice has existed for hundreds of years. All traditions of "regular" marriage are observed, the female husband's family even recieves dowry.

Anyway, yeah, marriage is to do with society, not religion or money. I'm obviously not the wife type, but I think that where there's society, there's going to be marriage. Even if religion ceased to be a factor in society, I believe marriage would remain.

[cacian]

Hi JuniperWoolf interesting post.
What is the point of getting married if the figures shows that there more divorces on the rise?
what is the difference between a couple living together for as long as or the same as a maried couple?

[Helga]

Marriage means different things to different people so I don't think you can say it's better to live together and never marry. Yes many marriages end in divorce but many relationships break up too, mine is an example.

I don't think this piece of paper is important but when you think about the 'what if something happens to me' part of a family life it can be important. I know of a few people that were in a lot of trouble when they lost their boyfriend/girlfriend and money and property didn't go to them but the kids or other family members.

I am not the marriage type but that may change one day, I always say as a joke that if I find someone who is willing to get married in a ST chapel in Vegas I'd do it.

My biggest problem with marriage is the wedding, this huge expensive event and 'everything has to go according to plan'. I hate going to weddings!! It always feels so fake to me.

But on the gay thing, I think it's odd that some people can get married and some not. Here on the ice everybody can get married in a church or anywhere they want to, it's actually a big tourist thing, gay couples coming here to get married. In that sense it is a financial plot cause I don't think anybody cares if they get divorced in a year or not.

one last thing, this song is the only song I have heard that shows marriage and romance in a true light: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEpmUUEkrKM

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't believe in marriage in the way many people do--I don't see why or how having a priest talk to you and putting a little ring on your loved one's finger (or any ritual, really) can enhance or change the relationship on a way that could be done without such a ritual. I would get married for the financial benefits, though.

[Emil Miller]

Marriage means different things to different people


It sure does.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8127/260434790921682827xhsya.jpg

[OrphanPip]

There are a lot of misconceptions about the divorce rates though, they aren't actually substantially on the rise. And like I said before, the actual statistics, for Canada at least, put successful marriages in the 60-70% rate. However, there is evidence that marriage is strongly effected by economic opportunities and status. Poor people are less likely to be married, for one reason because of the cost of ceremonies, and are less likely to have successful marriages, money problems put a lot of stress on marriages.

Also, less people in general are getting married.

[Patrick_Bateman]

They say 50% of marriages end in divorce these days now, don't they?

I think there is a changing attitude towards marriage; some people enter into these unions knowing how easily reversable it now is; due to this fact a lot of young couples rush into such commitments to one another.
Marriage is no longer 'forever'; a binding of two people in love for eternity. But then again you can say that the institution of marriage was even less about love prior to the twentieth century, among the upper echelons of society anyway, it was about political alliances, dowries, consolidating power and influence through connections with a powerful and influential family.

The divorce rates can also be attributed to the change in the role of women over the decades. The proliferation of strong, powerful, independent women means that a lot of women are no longer dependent on a man to provide for them. I also think dating websites and social networking have led to more marriages and there for higher potential for more marriages to fail. And on the flip side the same websites are responsible for a lot of marriage break-ups.

For me, and my girlfriend, marriage itself isn't a necessary or fundamental step in our relationship. We would be just as happy co-habitating for the rest of our days. I think a big reason why people get married these days is because they want to celebrate their love with their families, and because society seems to decree the institution of marriage as a prerequisite to a happy family life; It makes things simpler and more convenient. I don't think people think about it as much as they should, and when they do think I don't think they are considering what needs to be considered.

[JuniperWoolf]

Marriage is no longer 'forever'.

I think that's a good thing. I can see a lot of benefits to it, and very few detriments.

[Patrick_Bateman]

I think that's a good thing. I can see a lot of benefits to it, and very few detriments.

Well then what's the point?

[Alexander III]

Well then what's the point?

A man should not be obeisant to his past but to his present.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

They say 50% of marriages end in divorce these days now, don't they?

I think there is a changing attitude towards marriage; some people enter into these unions knowing how easily reversable it now is; due to this fact a lot of young couples rush into such commitments to one another.
Marriage is no longer 'forever'; a binding of two people in love for eternity. But then again you can say that the institution of marriage was even less about love prior to the twentieth century, among the upper echelons of society anyway, it was about political alliances, dowries, consolidating power and influence through connections with a powerful and influential family.

The divorce rates can also be attributed to the change in the role of women over the decades. The proliferation of strong, powerful, independent women means that a lot of women are no longer dependent on a man to provide for them. I also think dating websites and social networking have led to more marriages and there for higher potential for more marriages to fail. And on the flip side the same websites are responsible for a lot of marriage break-ups.

For me, and my girlfriend, marriage itself isn't a necessary or fundamental step in our relationship. We would be just as happy co-habitating for the rest of our days. I think a big reason why people get married these days is because they want to celebrate their love with their families, and because society seems to decree the institution of marriage as a prerequisite to a happy family life; It makes things simpler and more convenient. I don't think people think about it as much as they should, and when they do think I don't think they are considering what needs to be considered.

Are there any financial benefits to being married in England? In the states, there're a lot of tax benefits, not to mention privileges, such as being able to see your spouse if they're in the hospital (this is often a big point in support of gay marriage, that a man/woman can't visit their partner in the hospital even if they've been together for 30 years).

[OrphanPip]

There are also parental rights issues in a lot of jurisdiction.

[KCurtis]

Marriage is old, much older than recorded history. Artifacts from pre-history suggest that marriage has existed as long as there's been hierarchical society, and it's existed in literally every single culture, almost every tribe, everywhere. It's not always been about man + woman either, I know off the top of my head that in some places in Africa a woman can be the husband (http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5001384575) and marry another woman, taking on the male roles if there were no other suitable males available or if she was the most suitable for the husband role. This practice has existed for hundreds of years. All traditions of "regular" marriage are observed, the female husband's family even recieves dowry.

Anyway, yeah, marriage is to do with society, not religion or money. I'm obviously not the wife type, but I think that where there's society, there's going to be marriage. Even if religion ceased to be a factor in society, I believe marriage would remain.

Thankyou Juniper. I was obviously not the wife type too once when I was your age, or maybe a bit younger. Then I met my husband and still didn't quite know what I was doing, but I was glad I did it!! I think marriage is here to stay. A lot of people stay married for a long time, I've been at it for 28 years. It gets better too as you get older, silly arguments don't matter anymore. And it's great because you and your spouse forget what the argument is about anyways. And you forget about what you thought you wanted to argue about but can't be bothered. As far as the ceremony goes, it doesn't have to be expensive. We got married at my mothers house- we didn't care what other people did.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Thankyou Juniper. I was obviously not the wife type too once when I was your age, or maybe a bit younger. Then I met my husband and still didn't quite know what I was doing, but I was glad I did it!! I think marriage is here to stay. A lot of people stay married for a long time, I've been at it for 28 years. It gets better too as you get older, silly arguments don't matter anymore. And it's great because you and your spouse forget what the argument is about anyways. And you forget about what you thought you wanted to argue about but can't be bothered. As far as the ceremony goes, it doesn't have to be expensive. We got married at my mothers house- we didn't care what other people did.

I'm not sure my parents, married nearly 30 years, feel the same. They argue all the time, get genuinely angry at each other, etc etc. I know for a fact they couldn't live without each other, though, no matter how many times my dad says he'd like to get a Winnebago and just drive away (jokingly . . . sorta).

[The Comedian]

I think the institution is changing. Whether you call that change "defunct" is a personal issue.

I've been married for 13 years, have two daughters, and am happy in my station in life. The relationship is fine. I can count the number of fights we've had on one hand. I think what most people miss, from my perspective is that they think that marriage is about one thing: passionate love.

It's not about just that. Passionate love is a part of the married relationship. But it's just an element of the relationship. . . . . sort of like an arm is to a body. A marriage has passion, friendship, collaboration, business, dependence, independence. . . . . Anyway, I think of it as the sum total of all one's previous relationships wrapped into one. But not excluding any of the others. Mrs. Comedian and I have friends, common and unique, and we love to spend time together. We work to keep house, family, and finances together. We love each other. . . . and so on.

Hell, I cooked dinner (glazed salmon, Japanese buckwheat noodles, spinach salad), and she's reading to the kids before they go to bed while I type this). . . .

But I digress. Is marriage defunct? Nope. Different. Yep.

[Scheherazade]

I am wondering whether marriage is an institution at all. It is not an academy or organisation you join... Marriage is between two people and it is what you make of it.

The rules of engagement are determined between those two people, regardless of what rest of the world population expect or even demand. And if it often comes down to this, I believe: Do you want to make it work with that particular person or not?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The definition of "institution" seems applicable (marriage even being used as an example): http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/institution

[JuniperWoolf]

My dad calls his workplace "the institution" (he's a prison guard). I guess I have always thought of marriage as comparable to a prison.

[Scheherazade]

The definition of "institution" seems applicable (marriage even being used as an example): http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/institutionI am well aware of the usage; I was simply reflecting on the notion myself... With which I am still not sure that I agree.

My dad calls his workplace "the institution" (he's a prison guard). I guess I have always thought of marriage as comparable to a prison.Life with no possibility of parole? :smilewinkgrin:

[KCurtis]

My dad calls his workplace "the institution" (he's a prison guard). I guess I have always thought of marriage as comparable to a prison.

It doesn't have to be. I guess if one was married to an overly possessive person it would seem that way. If people are careful in who they select it should not resemble a prison at all.

[qimissung]

Yeah, my mom always said that there is usually a rocky patch somewhere in a long marriage, and if people stay through that they come out closer on the other side. I don't know if that's true or not, and it is a generalization. It would seem logical that in a very long relationship that a couple might have to renegotiate the terms. Also, who have you married? Are they who they say they are? I got married, and I got divorced. I really thought, though, that he's stick around to be there for his kids. But on the day he left he put the computer in the car, got in and drove away. He did maintain some contact with his sons for a number of years, but has lately become estranged from them it seems. They were all the last ones to contact him.

So all you can do, really, is determine to be as present as you can. Which I plan to remember the next time I'm in a relationship. :)

[cacian]

One just have to look at the celebrities marriage saga and you would realise how theatrically messy the whole concept is.
Celebrities go through marraiges like water it is almost addictive
there are more divorces then marriages if you go byt celebrities
That is the costs it seems to me of glamorising anything, the end result is usually of a sour nature, not so glamorous after all.

[KCurtis]

Yeah, my mom always said that there is usually a rocky patch somewhere in a long marriage, and if people stay through that they come out closer on the other side. I don't know if that's true or not, and it is a generalization. It would seem logical that in a very long relationship that a couple might have to renegotiate the terms. Also, who have you married? Are they who they say they are? I got married, and I got divorced. I really thought, though, that he's stick around to be there for his kids. But on the day he left he put the computer in the car, got in and drove away. He did maintain some contact with his sons for a number of years, but has lately become estranged from them it seems. They were all the last ones to contact him.

So all you can do, really, is determine to be as present as you can. Which I plan to remember the next time I'm in a relationship. :)

Well, that is a sad story. I must say that after I compared my husband to the other guys I had dated, I knew he was the opposite of them, and that was a critical reason to stay with him. We had 5 years of great fun and interesting times before our mentally disabled son was born, and then after that it was a real commitment on our part to stay together and help him and each other. There was no "us" anymore, our lives were dedicated to him, and it was very stressful. We understood that and still do. Ofcourse there are rocky times, it's just part of being human. But now, even after our son has left home, we are still committed, after all these years we somehow work, and still have fun. We share the sorrow of our son, and would rather share it together. So maybe we are different from others, and it is very isolating to have a son like this, as it is not common. We have been through too much together.

[Scheherazade]

That is the costs it seems to me about glamorising anythin the end result is usually of a sour nature, not so glamorous after all.That is not a result of glamourising marriage, but, I believe, a result of marrying for wrong reasons. And sometimes, even though one might start out a journey for the right reasons with a person whom they consider to be "right", circumstances change, people change and develop so it may not last a life time but that is no reason, again in my opinion, not to try.

Very rarely I take celebrities as role models for myself so I am not so sure I want to do that where an important issue like marriage is concerned either.

There are so many real-life stories in this thread and I would like to thank everyone for sharing theirs so honestly.

[Idril]

Whom you marry is key of course but also why you marry. At 24 I decided I was ready to be a mom, I had no great desire to be a wife really but for me, one had to follow the other. I know that I genuinely felt I loved my sons' dad at the time we married but we really didn't know each other that well. He was a good guy and I thought he would be a good father but the fact of the matter was, I was much more ready to be a mother than a wife and I overlooked a few really critical red flags. Once those boys were born, the relationship with their dad became harder and harder to maintain. He was a nice guy, his heart was usually in the right place but those issues I ignored so that I could have babies just didn't go away, we weren't suited for each other, we couldn't communicate, we didn't have the same goals and after a few really honest tries, the relationship just...failed. I stuck around for the boys for many years, too many years, because I thought it was best but when I think of the example of marriage those two boys have grown up with, I feel so sad for them. All they know of marriage is two miserable people that never talk, never touch and who were barely functional as human beings and not at all functional as a couple. We have talked about it since the split, the boys and I, and they acknowledge that they understood it was not a good or normal marriage, in fact their response when told we were getting divorced was, "We're not surprised." but still, it haunts me that is their picture of marriage.

I really thought I would never marry again after that fiasco and it took awhile to get my bearings but...and this is so important...it's all about meeting the right person, the person that makes you feel good about yourself, that inspires you to be a better person, that can genuinely comfort you and someone you can have fun with. I don't think you have to marry in order to have that kind of relationship, some people don't need that piece of paper to tie them to a person or a relationship and that's just fine but I like the concept of marriage and I'm very excited and ready to experience a good marriage.

[Basil]

...I like the concept of marriage and I'm very excited and ready to experience a good marriage.
Anyone in particular that you had in mind? :smilewinkgrin:

[Idril]

Anyone in particular that you had in mind? :smilewinkgrin:

As if you didn't know. :P