Is Nudity Art?

[cacian]

I was just watching a programm and it suddenly showed a nude person standing in the middlle of a courtyard,in the cold, whilst painters/sketchers peered at the nudity with an eagle eye to catch something to draw.

It took me by surprise I was not expecting to see such a scene,:leaving:but it did make cring as I felt cold and almost squeemish for the nude person standing there.
I guess I would never understand people who have the stamina to stand totally nude in front of strangers.
I for one know there is no way I would.

so my question is
is a strangers' naked body art to be had?

discuss.

[LunarPlexus]

I don't like to say what is and isn't art, but the naked human body has always inspired artists. I like to paint, and try really hard to be original, but I still really love to sit down and sketch a beautiful naked lady.

[MystyrMystyry]

Some nude people get paid lots of money which they don't need to spend on clothes so that's even more money. Most nude people are not so fortunate but people will offer to pay them (though not as much) to put on their clothes.

There's a nude resort not far from here where the rent is very low (thirty dollars a week) provided you don't wear clothes. If you'd rather wear clothes then you're not allowed to live there.

I was on a bus once and the driver started talking about how he hates the job because he has to wear a uniform instead of being nude. I don't like buses in the first place, but if the driver was nude well gasp what would you do?

I agree that nude bus drivers are not really 'works of art' in themselves, though someone might think so, and even prefer it. Imagine being able to say that your bus driver was a 'work of art' instead of just a bio-mechanical robot.

There are nude people who think that they are 'works of art' just by virtue of that fact they are nude. These are lucky people who don't listen to public criticism and tend to do what ever they feel like (it doesn't mean they're 'works of art' though).

[stlukesguild]

When Duchamp placed the urinal in the art gallery, his intention was to provoke a dialog upon the age old question" "What is Art?" Sadly enough, a vast majority missed the irony and assumed that Duchamp was championing the notion that "Everything is Art." As a result, several generations have been given permission to buy into this notion that "Everything is Art" without ever really questioning just what it is that entails.

I don't buy into the notion that "Everything is Art" nor even the concept that a goal of Art should be to close the gap between "Life" and "Art". Art, to me, is something removed from life ("artificial"?)... something separate from life... something for which we have assigned a term (Art) defining it as something different or special from the the whole of life... the whole of "everything".

The human body is a work of nature. It may indeed be infinitely beautiful and suggest the most profound thoughts (as some works of art)... but the same may be true of a snowflake or the Grand Canyon. The human body is a work of nature... but it may be employed as the source of inspiration for works of art (as in the case of an artist creating a painting of a nude model), or the medium (in the case of a dancer or actor) or even the "canvas":

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7015/6762918371_3b4f23bf5a.jpg

The notion of that the nude body itself could be a source of inspiration for art has long been a source of anxiety for artists, critics, and moralists. Beyond those who would obviously object to nudity in art on moral terms: orthodox clergy, Puritans, etc... the nude as a subject in art even came under fire by various Modernist theorists. Emmanuel Kant objected to the seductive nature of the subject matter which made it difficult to judge a work of art objectively , in other words, the naked female body overwhelmed the male art lover/art critic's ability to discern whether it was the "art" or the subject matter that he found attractive. The architect Adolf Loos and the anarchist artist, Filippo Tommaso Marinetti argued that the nude was so clearly laden with emotional "baggage" that it should be done away with for the sake of reason.

I was just watching a programm and it suddenly showed a nude person standing in the middlle of a courtyard,in the cold, whilst painters/sketchers peered at the nudity with an eagle eye to catch something to draw. It took me by surprise I was not expecting to see such a scene,but it did make cring as I felt cold and almost squeemish for the nude person standing there.
I guess I would never understand people who have the stamina to stand totally nude in front of strangers.

I for one know there is no way I would.

I remember my first experience with drawing the nude in art school. The professor talked for a good deal about the tradition of drawing the nude stressing that it should in no way be looked upon as a sexual experience... that artists, like doctors, were professionals who could look at the nude without the least erotic thought coming to mind as they focused upon the gesture, the relationship of forms, the play of light, the anatomy and the physiology. Plato, great moralist that he was, argued along the same lines, suggesting that there were two Aphrodites, whom he calls the celestial and the vulgar: Venus Coelestis and Venus Naturalis. The "nude" in art, he argued, should avoid the expression of the obsessive, unreasonable nature of physical desire: the vulgar... and instead aspire to the celestial... the ideal... a celebration of beauty... a beauty that transcends sexuality.

It became rapidly clear what a crock this was as the female students were just as visibly affected my the male models, as the guys were by the female models.

Sir Kenneth Clark, the great art historian, reinforced my own thoughts when he argued that the human nude is an image of such power for the simple reason that it is "Us" and reminds us of all that we enjoy doing with ourselves... and first and foremost is our sexual urge or erotic drive. Clark went so far as to argue that the sexual drive... the desire to grasp and be physically united with another human being... is so central to our human experience that any representation of the nude that failed to raise some vestige of the erotic sensibility was ultimately bad art and false morals.

[JCamilo]

What still amaze me is how people still mix the object that inspired art (a naked woman, a dressed woman, a bird, a fruit) with the object (a song, a poem, a painting, a watever a woman may be doing naked) that is produces and ask if it is art. As if there is transformation, no medium, no changes between them... oh well.

[Revolte]

Yes it is. Not only because its creation itself (by whatever means that may be, I dont know and I don't care) is so superb, like any physical and living thing, that it can't seriously be disregarded as anything less then magic and art is magic. But also because of the knowledge defying war against the body, where it is illegal to be WHAT YOU ARE, it is only legal to NOT HIDE your true form when others can not see you unless willingly placed in the same location with INTENT to see you naked (which is absolutely dumbfounding considering it is NOT illegal to wear dead animals on your body when there is no realistic need for doing so other then looking like an idiot and serves just as much if not MORE triggering then a naked body alone). Breaking said laws in order to flaunt your truth is an EXTREME form of art, I may not go out of my way to see just anybody naked but I am sure as hell mature enough and smart enough to appreciate a true human body and the beauty that it holds. Patti Smith is someone I never found attractive, but when she is naked, she is beautiful.

And here we see said example above, plus the meeting of photography and nudity showing two arts to create an almost entirely different art where the focus is neither the photograph or the body but almost the forms itself and how they somehow manage to create a feel you would not get from looking directly at a nude person nor directly at any of todays forms of professional photography:

http://www.mapplethorpe.org/portfolios/

[cacian]

Some nude people get paid lots of money which they don't need to spend on clothes so that's even more money. Most nude people are not so fortunate but people will offer to pay them (though not as much) to put on their clothes.

There's a nude resort not far from here where the rent is very low (thirty dollars a week) provided you don't wear clothes. If you'd rather wear clothes then you're not allowed to live there.

I was on a bus once and the driver started talking about how he hates the job because he has to wear a uniform instead of being nude. I don't like buses in the first place, but if the driver was nude well gasp what would you do?

I agree that nude bus drivers are not really 'works of art' in themselves, though someone might think so, and even prefer it. Imagine being able to say that your bus driver was a 'work of art' instead of just a bio-mechanical robot.

There are nude people who think that they are 'works of art' just by virtue of that fact they are nude. These are lucky people who don't listen to public criticism and tend to do what ever they feel like (it doesn't mean they're 'works of art' though).

MyMy Mystery I am indeed baffled.
About the resort what happens when it snows and rains?
And do these people have children?
I hope not because that would be a breach of children to face or live with people who nude all the time.
I cannot imagine having to live with a parent or a relative who is permanentely nude that would sure affect my psychological sanity.
How depressing just thinking about it.
I can understand nude beaches, but nude as in the norm of living depresses me.

[Bluehound]

I am not particularly cultured or religious, but when I have seen really good art it moved me in a way that felt religious. Good art , including beautifully captured nudes, is divine.
But if I saw a naked person in the street, my instinct would be to look away.
Real naked people are not art, they may be beautiful and attractive, but they are still physical (wobbly bits and all).
A photo or a painting makes them more than that, it makes them godlike.

[stlukesguild]

About the resort what happens when it snows and rains?
And do these people have children?
I hope not because that would be a breach of children to face or live with people who nude all the time.
I cannot imagine having to live with a parent or a relative who is permanentely nude that would sure affect my psychological sanity.
How depressing just thinking about it.
I can understand nude beaches, but nude as in the norm of living depresses me.

You are making assumptions based upon your own experiences and moral standards. How many cultures do not look upon the nude in the same manner in which we, in the West, with our Judeo-Christian based notions about nudity and sexuality do? Do you honestly believe that the African tribes for whom nudity is the norm are permanently psychologically damaged as a result of seeing nudity on a day to day basis?

[cacian]

About the resort what happens when it snows and rains?
And do these people have children?
I hope not because that would be a breach of children to face or live with people who nude all the time.
I cannot imagine having to live with a parent or a relative who is permanentely nude that would sure affect my psychological sanity.
How depressing just thinking about it.
I can understand nude beaches, but nude as in the norm of living depresses me.

You are making assumptions based upon your own experiences and moral standards. How many cultures do not look upon the nude in the same manner in which we, in the West, with our Judeo-Christian based notions about nudity and sexuality do? Do you honestly believe that the African tribes for whom nudity is the norm are permanently psychologically damaged as a result of seeing nudity on a day to day basis?

I am not ot judge anyone.
I am simply reacting in the way I would in this situation.
I have given reasons why being in the nude when the weather is not permitting to do so.
This is simply logic. I put clothes on because I do not want to freeze.
It is a fact of life wether I like it or not.
I also care about childrend and what they might see in two parents that stand in thenude in front of them.
The problem I have with that is this
whilst you as an adult have made the decision to be in the nude it is not the children's decision to ask for parents to be nude in front of them.
Just because a tribe in Africe decided to go nude when they could be dressed does not justify them as being right.
The children were not asked wether it was ok or not for adults to conduct themselves in this way, not caring for clothes when there are clothing to be had.
Sorry I have no sympathy for adults imposing their habits onchildren.
An adult is to behave as they wish but when there are chuldren about then the situation is different.
It is not my right to impose my nudity on children because children are not able to make their minds up yet on wether nudity is acceptable to them or not. The quicker the adult learns the better off the children are.
charity begins at home. There is no point in preaching childrens' right and protection when parents are not applying them themselves.
Like everything in life one is to consider others inclcuding children believe or not.
PLus let'sface it it is really not advisable to hang around in the nude because it is cultural.
I think much more urgent pressing more interesting and mind stretching then one living in the nude saying it is cultural.
Sorry this is making laugh my head off no offense.:rolleyes:

[ftil]

Another tread about nudity.LOL! Nudity and prostitution are hot topics. :lol:


Anyway, I am curious if the forum rules have changed and we can post again an original size of the image not just a "thumbnail". :confused:.

[MarkBastable]

...that would sure affect my psychological sanity.



Well, I'd say give it go then. At this stage, anything's worth a try.

[Darcy88]

On the issue of nudism I am undecided. With over a third of North Americans obese I`d poke out my eyes were nudism to become a widespread trend. Being naked only before one with whom you are intimate bestows upon the state a special significance which I suspect would be lost were you to be thus exposed regardless of company or occasion.

But then you see film or photo of aborigines in their primitive uncivilized state and cannot help but be in awe at the natural beauty and simplicity, the sheer innocence of it, of those true children of Adam and Eve.

As far as nudity being art... of course! Botticelli`s Venus, Michelangelo`s David, Manet`s Luncheon on the Grass are only a few remarkable examples of the nude being beautifully depicted in art.

[Delta40]

I think you're taking it a little out of context Cacian. Households are not so much imposing nudity on children so much as it's no big deal to see each other without their clothes on. I grew up in a generation where I was thrashed for peeking at my mother whereas my girls and I enjoyed the freedom of open nudity and were given privacy when it was needed. I didn't want my girls to feel ashamed of their bodies and I had no problem with the questions they asked about mine. We didn't however live in a household where you had to take your clothes off when you got home. It just meant that we really didn't worry all that much about closing doors.

As for art, I think the male and female bodies are interesting and will always inspire artists.

[stlukesguild]

I am not ot judge anyone.
I am simply reacting in the way I would in this situation.
I have given reasons why being in the nude when the weather is not permitting to do so.
This is simply logic.

Obviously one of the reasons for the use of clothing relates to the weather. But it is far from being the sole reason that given cultures choose to dress in a certain way or to cover given parts of the body and not other parts.

I also care about childrend and what they might see in two parents that stand in thenude in front of them.
The problem I have with that is this
whilst you as an adult have made the decision to be in the nude it is not the children's decision to ask for parents to be nude in front of them.
Just because a tribe in Africe decided to go nude when they could be dressed does not justify them as being right.

So are you suggesting that their behavior is "wrong"? Based upon what? Your values and standards?

The children were not asked wether it was ok or not for adults to conduct themselves in this way, not caring for clothes when there are clothing to be had. Sorry I have no sympathy for adults imposing their habits onchildren.

Parents and adults... and the culture as a whole make endless decisions as to what is or is not OK concerning children. We choose some arbitrary age at which an individual is allowed to vote, to join the military, to drink alcohol, to get married, to have sex. Show me a culture in which the adults do not impose their "habits" upon children? Do you think a child reared in a culture in which nudity is the accepted norm is in any way going to share your anxiety concerning the fact that their parents and friends and everyone they know is going about nudes?

An adult is to behave as they wish but when there are chuldren about then the situation is different.

Why? You are again basing this upon your values and standards. You and I (and probably most of us here at LitNet) were raised in culture in which we don't speak of certain subjects or use certain language (profanity) or engage in certain actions around children. This is not a behavior dictated by nature, but rather by the culture in which we live. Animals go about freely without clothing and engage in sexual activities and mating openly before each other and before their offspring without psychological damage inflicted upon the offspring. Where do you find it dictated in nature as to why we establish a given arbitrary age for the start of school, voting, the consumption of alcohol, the legal age for sex, marriage, etc...

It is not my right to impose my nudity on children because children are not able to make their minds up yet on wether nudity is acceptable to them or not. The quicker the adult learns the better off the children are.
charity begins at home. There is no point in preaching childrens' right and protection when parents are not applying them themselves.

Again... why is it you presume that nudity is inherently harmful for children? Certainly you recognize that your very thoughts and values concerning nudity are the result of the culture in which you were raised. Had you been raised in a strict Islamic culture you might have found it unnatural for any woman past a certain age to be seen in public without being covered from head to foot.

[OrphanPip]

In the middle ages most families in the West lived in single room dwellings, so sex and nudity in front of children wasn't exactly abnormal in Western culture either. During the 19th century there developed a strange medicalizing obsession about child sexuality. Paradoxically, we've developed these systems of limiting the exposure of children to sex precisely with the intent of manipulating the sexual development of children, to make sure that they develop into psychosexually "normal" individuals.

[stlukesguild]

In the middle ages most families in the West lived in single room dwellings, so sex and nudity in front of children wasn't exactly abnormal in Western culture either.

Yes... I was thinking of this as well... and these families largely worked in farming in some form of another and so exposure to both sexuality and death were a fact of day to day life (seen in the livestock... and among the family members) in a manner quite removed from our own age.

[billl]

From all accounts from the Mongolians I've known: in the more traditional and nomadic parts of the country, sexy things might happen between parents that the youngsters learn about while living in a tent with extended family all of their lives--but it is not at all the case that the elders are screwing buck naked in plain view of the rest of the family.

EDIT: But then there's this, from a photographer in modern Japan
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/photobooth/2012/01/motoyuki-daifus-lovesody-at-lombard-freid.html
(check the slides beyond the first one, which isn't from at home)

[cacian]

Well, I'd say give it go then. At this stage, anything's worth a try.

give what a go?
Not wearing clothes?
No.
I much prefer clothes one me.
I look better.
Plus nudity is something I tend to associate with having a shower or hygiene.
To walk around nude is a nono. I enjoy clothes and their significance.
Alos being in the nude is private to me and me only.
I don't share it with anyone else. My choice.

[cacian]

I think you're taking it a little out of context Cacian. Households are not so much imposing nudity on children so much as it's no big deal to see each other without their clothes on. I grew up in a generation where I was thrashed for peeking at my mother whereas my girls and I enjoyed the freedom of open nudity and were given privacy when it was needed. I didn't want my girls to feel ashamed of their bodies and I had no problem with the questions they asked about mine. We didn't however live in a household where you had to take your clothes off when you got home. It just meant that we really didn't worry all that much about closing doors.

As for art, I think the male and female bodies are interesting and will always inspire artists.


it's no big deal to see each other without their clothes on
How do you know it is not a big deal for those children.
Just because they do not say or speak it does not mean they don't think it.
It is a generalisation. No one really knows what goes in those children's mind and for us to brush it on the side saying it is cultural is being slightely naive.


I grew up in a generation where I was thrashed for peeking at my mother
what do you mean peeking at your mother?

my girls and I enjoyed the freedom of open nudity and were given privacy when it was needed
I see what you mean.
I think for me there comes an age where I am very aware about not imposing my nudity around my kids.
I have two boys and they are very awareabout not exposing theirs either.
This is something that in inherent and within them.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to look and be decent/wearing clothes.
I prefer to appear in my clothes all the time in front of my children.
I don't see the importance in going nude in front of or with your children.
I don't do it and they don't and I am very content with it.

I didn't want my girls to feel ashamed of their bodies and I had no problem with the questions they asked about mine
Of course I understand that but for me I don't see it as an issue because my kids won't need to be in the nude anywhere anyway. Nudity is not something they would need to rely on in their lives so it is anot an issue for me:smile5:

[Delta40]

Cacian I said its no big deal because they were born and raised into a household like that so those standards are the norm just as a household where everyone keeps their bodies hidden from each other is the norm.

When I said peeking, I meant that as a young girl I was naturally curious about my mothers body and if the bathroom door was slightly ajar I would stand there and watch her bathe herself. The thrashing I received gave me the message that I was a dirty person for wanting to look at her which I believe to be really wrong. That is why I decided not to hide my body from my own children.

[JCamilo]

It is quite a feat to have a life, give birth and be naked just for a shower. I am sure those events are meaningless and no artist would represent it. I can imagine young boys health masturbation routine while imagining girls dressed on astronauts uniforms, with helmet and all, and have a life completely empty of sexuality.

Art however has nothing to do with that.

[stlukesguild]

How do you know it is not a big deal for those children.
Just because they do not say or speak it does not mean they don't think it.
It is a generalisation. No one really knows what goes in those children's mind and for us to brush it on the side saying it is cultural is being slightely naive.

This actually suggests that you know very little about children and childhood development. "Normal" is defined by the parents, culture, and environment in which a child is reared. You are nearly imposing a racist attitude upon other cultures by making the sort of judgments that you do about their way of living: "Aww! Poor little black children running around naked and exposed to the disgusting display of nudity of their parents and other adults. They must surely be psychologically damaged."

I think for me there comes an age where I am very aware about not imposing my nudity around my kids.
I have two boys and they are very awareabout not exposing theirs either.
This is something that in inherent and within them.

Where you are wrong is in your assumption that the development you see in your children of a desire for privacy or modesty... or shame... concerning the naked body is something inherent... ingrained in them by nature. You seem to ignore the fact that beyond the need for clothing as a means of protection against the elements, it was wholly a development of civilization and varies from culture to culture. Our pre-historic ancestors did not go about clothed except when the environment demanded such. Modesty... the desire for privacy with regard to the body... and shame all all learned behavior in response to the culture in which a child is reared. This does not mean it is something taught explicitly. A child doesn't need to be told that he or she should be modest with regard to exposing his or her body. Children are very observant and recognize this behavior in their parents and among other adults whereas they have no such feelings of modesty or shame when they are very young.

[MarkBastable]

give what a go?
Not wearing clothes?


No, I meant.....oh, it doesn't matter.

[JuniperWoolf]

In the middle ages most families in the West lived in single room dwellings, so sex and nudity in front of children wasn't exactly abnormal in Western culture either. During the 19th century there developed a strange medicalizing obsession about child sexuality. Paradoxically, we've developed these systems of limiting the exposure of children to sex precisely with the intent of manipulating the sexual development of children, to make sure that they develop into psychosexually "normal" individuals.

*sigh* Sexuality has really sucked since the onset of the 19th century in so many ways. Before research of human sexuality on a cellular level, people thought that the female reproductive system was basically like the male's except inside out, so they believed that in order for a couple to conceive both the male and the female had to have an orgasm. Thanks for debunking that, modern science. *shakes fist*

[Bluehound]

The female orgasm is still believed to be an aid to conception as far as I know, something to do with contractions helping the little swimmers along.
I wouldn't really know I only indulge in the practising part my self.

[osho]

In fact man, of course woman more so, is so beautiful in their entire nudity and our outfits are veneers hypocrisy, pretense and the like. Our religions, the cultures based on them and the civilization born of all our affectation compelled man and woman to cover their nudity. Sex is done in hiding. In fact there is beauty in this and there is a separate thread under "art and mythology" and from what have been illustrated there some truths which we bury down several layers of our consciousness can be gleaned. What is seen is not our real face and our real face is beneath our garments of civilization. Shred all these drab garbs of civilization and culture nudity is what we are and our artists, poets do great service to us trying to lay bare some of the greatest untold truths about nudity. Speaking unpretentiously I like people in their nudity and I do not loathe the sight though I was told they are ugly.

I have come across a community in which people sleep stripped and lovemaking is not a repulsive activity and children are even allowed to watch the activities. We have a community in which a single woman is married even to half a dozen men and they make love in unison and their life is very harmonious and there is perfect understanding. We often become judgmental about others not understanding the thread that string their society closely together.

Nudity is our real and beautiful posture and if we look at it unaffectedly we see there beauty, sincerity and divinity. Something beyond the faked façade

[BookBeauty]

Whether nudity is art or not depends on its context.

Nudity in itself is just nudity, in my opinion. There can be nudity in art. I have drawn, painted and inked from live models. There is nothing more challenging, and fun as an artist to do so. This work, despite the fact that it is only practice, to me it is art. There is art in all forms.

I think the definition of what art can be, is very subjective, and depends upon the individual.

A more rising concern about nudity, in my mind, is the growing perversity in society, and the way that it, as a whole, is embraced as normality.

[MarkBastable]

A more rising concern about nudity, in my mind, is the growing perversity in society, and the way that it, as a whole, is embraced as normality.


Of course, no one can offer any response unless you specify what you consider to be perversion.

Or we could guess. That might be fun.

[BookBeauty]

Or we could guess. That might be fun.

Well, seeing as we're talking about art... :biggrinjester:

All right, here I go, opening up the can of worms...

Just my two cents, mind you. None of this is necessarily fact, just my own personal perspective. Consider that a disclaimer. =)

I think that the media and entertainment mediums broadcast and flaunt nudity, and sex, in order to garner ratings.

Meanwhile, subject matter, movies, series, reality television, are all becoming more and more brash, with a diminishing sense of actual substance in, sometimes, otherwise worthwhile stories.

I feel sorry for the writers of some programs that have to fit it in where it doesn't belong.

Not to mention that this stuff is starting to creep into daytime television, where a 5 year old might freely roam. I've seen some pretty crude commercials, too.

It's also in the language, in regular everyday conversations portrayed. And it continues to get more crude and showy.

Many people don't even realize it, really. They just take it in stride.

The parents should keep a watchful eye on the children anyway, but I think we all have public responsibility to be nurturing to the next generation. Heck, we should have our absolute best teaching our children, but... Maybe that is for another thread.

When it comes to nudity, sex, language and conversation, it becomes very difficult in today's society for a line to be drawn about what is appropriate, and inappropriate. In fact, there is no line. And many would argue that, that is a good thing.

But, that also begins to blur the line on ethics and morals. And it arguably begins to produce very sick individuals, that commit crimes without a moral compass.

[Nostalgia375]

Nudity can be subsumed in the category of art--provided who is being nude. I would certainly like to sculpt a nude woman.

[ralfyman]

Yes, because anything can be considered. Whether or not it is worth admiring is another matter.