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tonywalt

01-18-2012, 10:25 AM

Many people on this forum have sophisticated tastes. It can be seen in the type of books, plays, opera, intellectual and vibrant abstract disussions, and the list goes on.

What do you do in general public gatherings where you cannot choose the company - and most of us have these. Do you switch over to the usual American Idol/X Factor, football, and the other parochial stuff? Do you ever get bored and let it show a bit?

(I say this as I thirstily gulp from my 16 oz Budweiser and turn the volume up on Nascar while screaming for another one from the old lady)

JuniperWoolf

01-18-2012, 11:17 AM

A lot of the people in my town are pretty stupid. Don't get me wrong, I like many of them, they work hard and they'll help you out no matter what, they're just objectively dim which means that the things they like are usually boring. That's one of the biggest shocks I had in my first year at university; going into it I thought being the top student would be a effortless as usual, in my experience almost every other human I had ever met had the IQ of a slug. I've learned over the years that nope, that's just here. Maybe it's the lack of oxygen in the mountains.

I'm often around women who aren't my friends (I've snatched up all of the clever townsfolk as friends, I kind of have a monopoly on them) because I work in an office. The conversations quite often revolve around other women who aren't present, that whole “gossip” thing that makes everyone wet for some reason. Conversations like that just kill me, I clam up and ignore everyone. Most often however they're just talking about themselves and telling stories about their families, pets, their iPads, whatever. I'm not socially inept, so whenever they're saying something I listen politely and offer little contributions: "really, Tommy was born with blue eyes and then as he got older his eyes turned brown? That would be neat to see if you look back and track it through his baby pictures." They're not very funny people, but they’re nice enough and I guess these are those “life experiences” and “general public interactions during which I’m not high” that my family is always b*tching about me never having.

The men who stay and work at the hotel aren't as bad. The topic might not be "sophisticated," but literature, science and film are only three of the things that I'm interested in. Often the men talk about cool things, like hockey or near-death experiences (it's my location, people are always having wacky mishaps in the frozen cliffs). The worst among the "unsophisticated" males are the dumb, horny, older men, who aren't smart enough to know that a.) I'm 23 and you're 65 and embarrassing, or b.) you cannot flatter me, I am only politely smiling at you because I am being paid not to tell you to **** off. An older man's chances are in his charm, his wit and his style. I don't understand why people who obviously possess none of those qualities think that I'm going to sleep with them because they said I have "nice eyes" in a soft, serial-killerish tone that I assume is supposed to be seductive while leaning way too close to me. The magnitude of the stupidity that it takes to do that is depressing, and we deal with losers like this every single day, every day I have to get all evasive and bite my tongue, it's frustrating. Talk about a boring conversation. They must have no short-term memory, because there's no way on this earth that they haven't been shot down by a thousand other girls young enough to be their granddaughters that they somehow believed they had a chance with. They’re like goldfish.

Charles Darnay

01-18-2012, 11:46 AM

My associations over the past few years have mainly been with really nerdy people (university friends) and teachers, some of who are really nerdy. So conversations range from really academic - lit, philosophy, economics - to mid-aged men and women talking about their kids and their dogs. The latter is become more prevalent in my life: it is far less stimulating.

Delta40

01-18-2012, 11:59 AM

Forgive me but I just can't help myself (too much wine lol), what with all you have to endure from the common folk and all. Are you both too sophisticated to masturbate or should I use a more academic reference?

JuniperWoolf

01-18-2012, 12:01 PM

MANICHAEAN

01-18-2012, 12:08 PM

Sexual self gratification?

Oh, Come'on Juniper, let's call a spade a spade!

stlukesguild

01-18-2012, 12:20 PM

Juniper... did you ever think that your difficulty in communicating with the rest of the "morons" in the world has less to do with your stellar intellect, sophistication, and looks, and more to do with your "endearing" personality and humility?

I have found over the years that not many share my passions for music, literature, and art... but this does not mean that they are inherently less intelligent or unsophisticated than myself. I have met (and in some instances am friends) with doctors, lawyers, architects, CEOs, educators, etc... These people are not stupid. They may be ignorant of literature or art... but no less so than I am ignorant of the law or medicine or architectural engineering. I might even say that a great many people I have known who have worked in less glamorous careers have proven no intelligent on many occasions.

Like anyone else I seek out individuals who share my interests, but I have no problem "fitting in" in most any gathering. In a way, my job demands this. I need to be able to speak to parents of my students... parents who often dropped out of school and are struggling day to day to survive in a tough urban environment. At the same time, I think this is equally a necessity as an artist. An art born solely of academia is quite likely to be sterile and lifeless. Picasso suggested that "real art" was created in the same manner that the aristocracy produced children during the Renaissance: through a merger of the high and low... the aristocratic and the peasant.

JuniperWoolf

01-18-2012, 12:42 PM

Juniper... did you ever think that your difficulty in communicating with the rest of the "morons" in the world has less to do with your stellar intellect, sophistication, and looks, and more to do with your "endearing" personality and humility?

That too, I'm brazen and a cynic which is a completely different topic. I like to hang out with other cynics because they're hilarious, but they're hard to find. I also can't stand cowards who tiptoe around a topic like they're afraid of it. Not knowing anything about the topic is one thing - if the topic is the Japanese shrimp industry or something else that you know nothing about, and you have nothing constructive to add, then be honest with yourself and and stay out of it so that you don't waste everyone's time. If the topic doesn't interest you, then don't engage because it's pointless. If, however, I am in a public forum or a classroom and I won't share my thoughts (even though I want to and it's the appropriate time for idea-sharing) because I'm afraid that I'll look like a dick or make some breach of social code, then I am a coward and that's unacceptable. I can't live with that. Humility has a time and place and that time and place is usually after class when I'm trying to manipulate authority figures into upping my grade. Anyway, now that I've aptly defended my personality which you randomly and very maturely attacked for some reason, I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the snobby pot is currently commentating on the faults of the snobby kettle.

Before that though, I'd like to say for the record that politeness is one of the human traits I value most (it's in the top five). Politeness is one of the major reasons why our species is so advanced because it makes cooperation possible. I'd never speak to a mere aquaintence in daily life the way I would to someone who is here on litnet to share ideas. Life doesn't work like that, you can't be "yourself" at work unless your goal is to be fired, and you can't tell the stranger in front of you that his incessant rambling about the virtues of Ford trucks over Chevvies is boring as hell unless you want to fight. When I'm not around my friends or in the relative sanctuary of a classroom or social networking, when I am at work or during unavoidable social interaction within my community, it is not the place to share ideas or to show who I really am (as if I ever had the oppertunity to do so during a mind-numbing conversation about how Beth's new shirt gives her a muffin top, or how April is a dirty slut because she's hitting on the guy in room 113 even though she has a boyfriend, ****ing kill me). It's where I keep quiet and keep to myself.

I have found over the years that not many share my passions for music, literature, and art... but this does not mean that they are inherently less intelligent or unsophisticated than myself?

You frequently imply that your tastes are "better" than those of other people. I could dig in your previous posts if you want to deny it, but I wouldn't even try if I were you. Why is that okay, but openly saying "dim people exist and I don't relish talking to them because they discuss things which bore me" not okay?

parents who often dropped out of school and are struggling day to day to survive in a tough urban environment. At the same time, I think this is equally a necessity as an artist. An art born solely of academia is quite likely to be sterile and lifeless. Picasso suggested that "real art" was created in the same manner that the aristocracy produced children during the Renaissance: through a merger of the high and low... the aristocratic and the peasant.

You do realize that it's elitist to call a highschool drop-out "low" and equate them with peasants, right? The whole "I do it for my art" vibe you've got going is even more comically SoHo.

This all smacks of dishonest superficial PC rhetorical crap. "It's wrong to openly state a fact of life and say without pussyfooting around that some people really do work harder in the realm of academia and are therefore more intelligent. That's only okay if it's strongly implied, jerk!"

cafolini

01-18-2012, 01:13 PM

Juniper... did you ever think that your difficulty in communicating with the rest of the "morons" in the world has less to do with your stellar intellect, sophistication, and looks, and more to do with your "endearing" personality and humility?

I have found over the years that not many share my passions for music, literature, and art... but this does not mean that they are inherently less intelligent or unsophisticated than myself. I have met (and in some instances am friends) with doctors, lawyers, architects, CEOs, educators, etc... These people are not stupid. They may be ignorant of literature or art... but no less so than I am ignorant of the law or medicine or architectural engineering. I might even say that a great many people I have known who have worked in less glamorous careers have proven no intelligent on many occasions.

Like anyone else I seek out individuals who share my interests, but I have no problem "fitting in" in most any gathering. In a way, my job demands this. I need to be able to speak to parents of my students... parents who often dropped out of school and are struggling day to day to survive in a tough urban environment. At the same time, I think this is equally a necessity as an artist. An art born solely of academia is quite likely to be sterile and lifeless. Picasso suggested that "real art" was created in the same manner that the aristocracy produced children during the Renaissance: through a merger of the high and low... the aristocratic and the peasant.

This surprised me. You had to say something like this to get a pass out of the museum and become a true service to society with what I know you know. I loved it. Good commentary about unconscious snobbery.
And we also know that sophistication is a Protagorian idea of extremely sophistic and selfish ethics. Not worth much to the common person.

LitNetIsGreat

01-18-2012, 01:35 PM

What do you do in general public gatherings where you cannot choose the company - and most of us have these. Do you switch over to the usual American Idol/X Factor, football, and the usual parochial stuff? Do you ever get bored and let it show a bit?

It is a fair question I think.

It's not that I'm constantly walking around with the need to philosophise or anything like that, but there is still a need to discuss the things which interest you, I think this is only natural.

When I was at university two nights a week I could get all of that out of my system, like visiting some high class hooker. Then again a lot of such 'discussion' (usually in the pub) involved whinging about word counts or various assignments - there weren't much philosophizing going on, so I'm not really missing much on that front.

Generally though, when I think about it, most of my conversations involve moaning about things - this is my specialist subject, that and beer! I do get on with the vast majority of people though, but I like to keep myself to myself wherever possible.

In regards to your actual question I'm just honest about the things I like and dislike. I can talk a bit of football if necessary but I absolutely refuse to even be in the same room as any such reality nonsense or TV soaps, so I wouldn't make a pretense or even nod interest in any of those. I say something like "I can't stand those" and that's that. As I say though I'm quite flexible and get on with most people generally.

I must say though that I mostly avoid such public gatherings if I know I'm going to hate them. I don't go to any of the work dos and do my best to avoid weddings and such parties wherever possible. I've never been a fan of parties. I much prefer a quiet pint in a nice pub.

JuniperWoolf

01-18-2012, 02:16 PM

I can talk a bit of football if necessary but I absolutely refuse to even be in the same room as any such reality nonsense or TV soaps, so I wouldn't make a pretense or even nod interest in any of those. I say something like "I can't stand those" and that's that.

I'd try to tactfully steer the conversation away from something that makes me want to repeatedly bash my head against a brick wall. That way I wouldn't have to talk about something stupid but at the same time no one feels like I'm looking down on them and hates me only to cause problems for me in the future. "Survivor, yeah, I've never seen it but I know the premise... actually, if they really did drop a bunch of random people from various socioeconomic backgrounds into a survival situation without the huge cameras in their face reminding them that the whole world is watching or promise of medical aid and all that, wouldn't that be cool to witness somehow? Like Lord of the Flies, but I wonder how it would actually go." Cue the conversation about human nature, or else the discussion about where we'd fit in and what we'd do in a classic deserted island survival scenario.

OrphanPip

01-18-2012, 02:27 PM

I'm quite happy to talk about celebrity gossip and reality shows, I usually can keep up enough with pop culture to be informed enough to follow a conversation ha. And when I can't think of anything to say, like all good Anglo-Quebecer, I just complain about whatever misadventures our French speaking compatriots are up to lately.

Emil Miller

01-18-2012, 02:32 PM

Many people on this forum have sophisticated tastes. It can be seen in the type of books, plays, opera, intellectual and vibarant abstract disussions, and the list goes on.

What do you do in general public gatherings where you cannot choose the company - and most of us have these. Do you switch over to the usual American Idol/X Factor, football, and the usual parochial stuff? Do you ever get bored and let it show a bit?

(I say this as I thirstily gulp from my 16 oz Budweiser and turn the volume up on Nascar while screaming for another one from the old lady)

I tend to seek out people who are on a similar wavelength but when that hasn't been possible, as it often is in work situations for example, I kept quiet and let them quack on about the kind of mass 'entertainments' you have mentioned. But usually there was the possibility of having a laugh and a joke with colleagues that made the fact that they didn't share my personal interests less of a trial than it might have been. It helps if among the staff there are some 'characters' such as the Irishman I worked with who looked very much like Oscar Wilde and was a laugh a minute. Or the two Australians who joined at the same time and were an absoluter riot.

Charles Darnay

01-18-2012, 02:45 PM

It is a fair question I think.

It's not that I'm constantly walking around with the need to philosophise or anything like that...

I am. Stopping people on the street demanding a discourse in post-Kantian metaphysics - what I live for.

Darcy88

01-18-2012, 02:58 PM

I try to get a daily dose of regional and world news and an update on the local sports teams just so I have something to talk about when I'm around other people. My family and close friends will humour me when I wax on about the Greeks or the Romans or whatever book I'm currently reading, but most people give me a blank stare and try to change the subject. I feign ignorance all the time. It often seems impolite to appear intelligent. There seems to be an unspoken social rule about not touching upon serious or intellectual subjects. The four people I work with never ever read books. If it weren't for the few intelligent people I've befriended in real life and also those I've encountered here on litnet I'd probably consider myself a genius. Litnet can be very humbling.

Much of popular culture is revoltingly mindless. Some people are innately stupid, others are made so by dint of their having been saturated by this mindlessness. It would be a wonderful world wherein all read poetry, studied history, had refined taste for cinema and music.

I'll always consider myself half-philistine. I may like poetry and philosophy and classical music, but my family is humble and for much of my life I was, and to some degree still am, unsophisticated.

Varenne Rodin

01-18-2012, 03:31 PM

In Miami someone remarked to me that Californians must be very sophisticated. I took it as a compliment. Certainly compared to Florida we are, but there are few people like me here, and they are localized in the downtown and beach areas of our major cities. I'm a laid back girl, but I'll never shop at Walmart or embrace a garbage life. It has made for some lonely times. I can keep up with pop culture, but I don't rub elbows well with redneck hicks. I was called "too fancy" for not eating my meals out of store bought plastic containers. Too fancy for cooking food at home and eating it off of plates. By my own standards I am hardly sophisticated. By American standards I am a snob. *shrug*

tonywalt

01-18-2012, 03:38 PM

It often seems impolite to appear intelligent. There seems to be an unspoken social rule about not touching upon serious or intellectual subjects. The four people I work with never ever read books.
.

You have hit on something that i should have stated.

There is a social rule, and it's growing as the Kardashian/screaming reality show culture has become the societal norm. That rule is that any sort of intellectual conversation or use of any words with more than a syllable is explicitly discouraged. There is explicit but certain and growing anti-intellectual mindset, so much so that even to call someone an intellectual is considered derogatory. Politicians are dummed down by their advisors in campaign preparation - more and more so.

I would bet a dollar virtually everyone on Onlit know the rule and how far they can bend it, but they damn well have gotten some sort of social penalty for breaking it.

Emil Miller

01-18-2012, 04:08 PM

[QUOTE=tonywalt;1107549]Politicians are dummed down by their advisors in campaign preparation - more and more so. QUOTE]

Do you mean that George W Bush was actually told to behave that way ?

tonywalt

01-18-2012, 04:27 PM

Emil Miller

01-18-2012, 04:54 PM

He was a natural-bless his cowboy boots.

But back to point, one of the reasons I like England is that there is still room for intellectual exercise.

There are pub quizes (here in Cayman, which is of course a British Colony) with fairly intelligent questions. I can honestly say that a bar quiz in the US would go down like a lead balloon, maybe the odd one. I wish differently.

Yes, the Cayman Islands were once described by a former UK Prime Minister as being the unacceptable face of capitalism, on account of its tax-dodging status, but many pub quizzes here seem to have a large number of questions about pop singers and sport rather than serious general knowledge questions.
A couple of years ago, I went into a pub with a friend and we were greeted with a loud voice saying:"What kind of shop has three hanging balls outside?"
I said to my friend that it was hardly a serious question and he said : " Ah, but do you know what kinds of shop has two hanging balls outside?" Expecting some risque reply, I said no and, he said: " A pawnbroker's that has been vandalised."

tonywalt

01-18-2012, 05:04 PM

You have hit on something that i should have stated.

There is a social rule, and it's growing as the Kardashian/screaming reality show culture has become the societal norm. That rule is that any sort of intellectual conversation or use of any words with more than a syllable is explicitly discouraged. There is explicit but certain and growing anti-intellectual mindset, so much so that even to call someone an intellectual is considered derogatory. Politicians are dummed down by their advisors in campaign preparation - more and more so.

I would bet a dollar virtually everyone on Onlit know the rule and how far they can bend it, but they damn well have gotten some sort of social penalty for breaking it.

Lokasenna

01-18-2012, 05:15 PM

It's true about the social mechanics of it all. I get quite a stong impression that some people are unsettled and vaguely threatened by someone who would rather discuss opera than football, Shakespeare than soap opera. Some people find an interest in non-mainstream pursuits troubling - I can't help but feel it has something to do with pack mentality. That which is different is repulsive.

But then, most of my friends share some of my interests. There are people I can talk music and theatre with, and more often than not the subject round the dinner table is literature - but what would you expect in a house of English PhDs? I'm perfectly capable of having an enjoyable chat with people from outside my natural tribe, if I may call it that - and if the subject turns to something fundamentally uninteresting to me, I'll probably politely excuse myself. Probably to go and listen to some Wagner...

LitNetIsGreat

01-18-2012, 05:25 PM

On the subject of pub quizzes and dumbing down, I once did a pub quiz in a rough pub with a friend of mine and his mate. I've hardly ever been in that pub but they were regulars I think. Anyway, we won the pub quiz and they sent me to collect the winnings. They said that if there were a tie breaker I was their best shot at winning it, though I just think that they couldn't be bothered to get up.

When I got to the bar and the barmaid/landlady woman, whoever she was, saw a new face in mine and panicked and refused to hand over our winnings. Instead she claimed on the spot that the 'winning' quiz this week was the one with the least correct answers! I was outraged. I have never set foot in that horrible pub again.

Oh yes and the name of the pub, 'The Shakey' dumbed down from 'The Shakespeare' as it used to be called originally, wouldn't you just know?

Helga

01-18-2012, 05:32 PM

Ok, when tony said kardashian something my nerdy head thought 'hey he is spelling it wrong and dishing a good thing' then I googled and found out what kardashian is.

I don't consider myself sophisticated at all not in the least but I don't follow news on actors or things like that so what I do in situations when people talk about these things is very simple, stay quiet and try to follow, that can be hard... maybe they need to dumb down for me. I can hardly talk about the books I enjoy at school cause not that many people here enjoy Shakespeare for instance, and I am studying literature!

I read the threads here and that is enough for me

Lokasenna

01-18-2012, 05:44 PM

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-18-2012, 06:08 PM

Emil Miller

01-18-2012, 06:30 PM

Oh yes and the name of the pub, 'The Shakey' dumbed down from 'The Shakespeare' as it used to be called originally, wouldn't you just know?

You are not alone. There is a very large pub opposite Victoria Station in London that, since it was built during the 1930s, was called The Shakespeare until some years ago it was renamed Shakes. One evening I arranged to meet a friend at the station and for a laugh we went to the newly named pub. The labyrinthine corridors had been painted white and decked out in coloured lights while the ghastly caterwauling that passes for popular music nowadays permeated the airwaves. Needless to say, we did not linger, but a couple of years later, it changed back to its former state and is now, once again, called The Shakespeare. A similar fate befell the Rising Sun in the centre of London that, one dark day, became The Elvis Presley, I kid you not, until it returned to it's original name. Delusions of dumbed down grandeur indeed.

B. Laumness

01-18-2012, 07:01 PM

I was going to write something, when I remembered that I share Schopenhauer’s thoughts on the subject. Here are excerpts of “Counsels and Maxims (http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/counsels/)” in Parerga & Paralipomena.

SECTION 9. To be self-sufficient, to be all in all to oneself, to want for nothing, to be able to say omnia mea mecum porto — that is assuredly the chief qualification for happiness. Hence Aristotle’s remark, [Greek: hae eudaimonia ton autarchon esti] — to be happy means to be self-sufficient — cannot be too often repeated. It is, at bottom, the same thought as is present in the very well-turned sentence from Chamfort:

Le bonheur n’est pas chose aisée: il est très difficile de le trouver en nous, et impossible de le trouver ailleurs.

For while a man cannot reckon with certainty upon anyone but himself, the burdens and disadvantages, the dangers and annoyances, which arise from having to do with others, are not only countless but unavoidable.

There is no more mistaken path to happiness than worldliness, revelry, high life : for the whole object of it is to transform our miserable existence into a succession of joys, delights and pleasures,— a process which cannot fail to result in disappointment and delusion; on a par, in this respect, with its obligato accompaniment, the interchange of lies.

All society necessarily involves, as the first condition of its existence, mutual accommodation and restraint upon the part of its members. This means that the larger it is, the more insipid will be its tone. A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free. Constraint is always present in society, like a companion of whom there is no riddance; and in proportion to the greatness of a man’s individuality, it will be hard for him to bear the sacrifices which all intercourse with others demands, Solitude will be welcomed or endured or avoided, according as a man’s personal value is large or small,— the wretch feeling, when he is alone, the whole burden of his misery; the great intellect delighting in its greatness; and everyone, in short, being just what he is.

Further, if a man stands high in Nature’s lists, it is natural and inevitable that he should feel solitary. It will be an advantage to him if his surroundings do not interfere with this feeling; for if he has to see a great deal of other people who are not of like character with himself, they will exercise a disturbing influence upon him, adverse to his peace of mind; they will rob him, in fact, of himself, and give him nothing to compensate for the loss.

But while Nature sets very wide differences between man and man in respect both of morality and of intellect, society disregards and effaces them; or, rather, it sets up artificial differences in their stead,— gradations of rank and position, which are very often diametrically opposed to those which Nature establishes. The result of this arrangement is to elevate those whom Nature has placed low, and to depress the few who stand high. These latter, then, usually withdraw from society, where, as soon as it is at all numerous, vulgarity reigns supreme.

What offends a great intellect in society is the equality of rights, leading to equality of pretensions, which everyone enjoys; while at the same time, inequality of capacity means a corresponding disparity of social power. So-called good society recognizes every kind of claim but that of intellect, which is a contraband article; and people are expected to exhibit an unlimited amount of patience towards every form of folly and stupidity, perversity and dullness; whilst personal merit has to beg pardon, as it were, for being present, or else conceal itself altogether. Intellectual superiority offends by its very existence, without any desire to do so.

The worst of what is called good society is not only that it offers us the companionship of people who are unable to win either our praise or our affection, but that it does not allow of our being that which we naturally are; it compels us, for the sake of harmony, to shrivel up, or even alter our shape altogether. Intellectual conversation, whether grave or humorous, is only fit for intellectual society; it is downright abhorrent to ordinary people, to please whom it is absolutely necessary to be commonplace and dull. This demands an act of severe self-denial; we have to forfeit three-fourths of ourselves in order to become like other people. No doubt their company may be set down against our loss in this respect; but the more a man is worth, the more he will find that what he gains does not cover what he loses, and that the balance is on the debit side of the account; for the people with whom he deals are generally bankrupt,— that is to say, there is nothing to be got from their society which can compensate either for its boredom, annoyance and disagreeableness, or for the self-denial which it renders necessary. Accordingly, most society is so constituted as to offer a good profit to anyone who will exchange it for solitude.

Nor is this all. By way of providing a substitute for real — I mean intellectual — superiority, which is seldom to be met with, and intolerable when it is found, society has capriciously adopted a false kind of superiority, conventional in its character, and resting upon arbitrary principles,— a tradition, as it were, handed down in the higher circles, and, like a password, subject to alteration; I refer to bon-ton fashion. Whenever this kind of superiority comes into collision with the real kind, its weakness is manifest. Moreover, the presence of good tone means the absence of good sense.

SECTION 34. A man must be still a greenhorn in the ways of the world, if he imagines that he can make himself popular in society by exhibiting intelligence and discernment. With the immense majority of people, such qualities excite hatred and resentment, which are rendered all the harder to bear by the fact that people are obliged to suppress — even from themselves — the real reason of their anger.

What actually takes place is this. A man feels and perceives that the person with whom he is conversing is intellectually very much his superior.

He thereupon secretly and half unconsciously concludes that his interlocutor must form a proportionately low and limited estimate of his abilities. That is a method of reasoning — an enthymeme — which rouses the bitterest feelings of sullen and rancorous hatred. And so Gracian is quite right in saying that the only way to win affection from people is to show the most animal-like simplicity of demeanor — para ser bien quisto, el unico medio vestirse la piel del mas simple de los brutos .

To show your intelligence and discernment is only an indirect way of reproaching other people for being dull and incapable. And besides, it is natural for a vulgar man to be violently agitated by the sight of opposition in any form; and in this case envy comes in as the secret cause of his hostility. For it is a matter of daily observation that people take the greatest pleasure in that which satisfies their vanity; and vanity cannot be satisfied without comparison with others. Now, there is nothing of which a man is prouder than of intellectual ability, for it is this that gives him his commanding place in the animal world. It is an exceedingly rash thing to let any one see that you are decidedly superior to him in this respect, and to let other people see it too; because he will then thirst for vengeance, and generally look about for an opportunity of taking it by means of insult, because this is to pass from the sphere of intellect to that of will — and there, all are on an equal footing as regards the feeling of hostility. Hence, while rank and riches may always reckon upon deferential treatment in society, that is something which intellectual ability can never expect; to be ignored is the greatest favor shown to it; and if people notice it at all, it is because they regard it as a piece of impertinence, or else as something to which its possessor has no legitimate right, and upon which he dares to pride himself; and in retaliation and revenge for his conduct, people secretly try and humiliate him in some other way; and if they wait to do this, it is only for a fitting opportunity. A man may be as humble as possible in his demeanor, and yet hardly ever get people to overlook his crime in standing intellectually above them. In the Garden of Roses , Sadi makes the remark:— You should know that foolish people are a hundredfold more averse to meeting the wise than the wise are indisposed for the company of the foolish .

On the other hand, it is a real recommendation to be stupid. For just as warmth is agreeable to the body, so it does the mind good to feel its superiority; and a man will seek company likely to give him this feeling, as instinctively as he will approach the fireplace or walk in the sun if he wants to get warm. But this means that he will be disliked on account of his superiority; and if a man is to be liked, he must really be inferior in point of intellect; and the same thing holds good of a woman in point of beauty. To give proof of real and unfeigned inferiority to some of the people you meet — that is a very difficult business indeed!

Consider how kindly and heartily a girl who is passably pretty will welcome one who is downright ugly. Physical advantages are not thought so much of in the case of man, though I suppose you would rather a little man sat next to you than one who was bigger than yourself. This is why, amongst men, it is the dull and ignorant, and amongst women, the ugly, who are always popular and in request. It is likely to be said of such people that they are extremely good-natured, because every one wants to find a pretext for caring about them — a pretext which will blind both himself and other people to the real reason why he likes them. This is also why mental superiority of any sort always tends to isolate its possessor; people run away from him out of pure hatred, and say all manner of bad things about him by way of justifying their action. Beauty, in the case of women, has a similar effect: very pretty girls have no friends of their own sex, and they even find it hard to get another girl to keep them company. A handsome woman should always avoid applying for a position as companion, because the moment she enters the room, her prospective mistress will scowl at her beauty, as a piece of folly with which, both for her own and for her daughter’s sake, she can very well dispense. But if the girl has advantages of rank, the case is very different; because rank, unlike personal qualities which work by the force of mere contrast, produces its effect by a process of reflection; much in the same way as the particular hue of a person’s complexion depends upon the prevailing tone of his immediate surroundings.

SECTION 21. In making his way through life, a man will find it useful to be ready and able to do two things: to look ahead and to overlook: the one will protect him from loss and injury, the other from disputes and squabbles.

No one who has to live amongst men should absolutely discard any person who has his due place in the order of nature, even though he is very wicked or contemptible or ridiculous. He must accept him as an unalterable fact — unalterable, because the necessary outcome of an eternal, fundamental principle; and in bad cases he should remember the words of Mephistopheles: es muss auch solche Käuze geben — there must be fools and rogues in the world. If he acts otherwise, he will be committing an injustice, and giving a challenge of life and death to the man he discards. No one can alter his own peculiar individuality, his moral character, his intellectual capacity, his temperament or physique; and if we go so far as to condemn a man from every point of view, there will be nothing left him but to engage us in deadly conflict; for we are practically allowing him the right to exist only on condition that he becomes another man — which is impossible; his nature forbids it.

So if you have to live amongst men, you must allow everyone the right to exist in accordance with the character he has, whatever it turns out to be: and all you should strive to do is to make use of this character in such a way as its kind and nature permit, rather than to hope for any alteration in it, or to condemn it off-hand for what it is. This is the true sense of the maxim — Live and let live. That, however, is a task which is difficult in proportion as it is right; and he is a happy man who can once for all avoid having to do with a great many of his fellow creatures.

SECTION 36. Politeness ,— which the Chinese hold to be a cardinal virtue,— is based upon two considerations of policy. I have explained one of these considerations in my Ethics ; the other is as follows:— Politeness is a tacit agreement that people’s miserable defects, whether moral or intellectual, shall on either side be ignored and not made the subject of reproach; and since these defects are thus rendered somewhat less obtrusive, the result is mutually advantageous.

It is a wise thing to be polite; consequently, it is a stupid thing to be rude. To make enemies by unnecessary and willful incivility, is just as insane a proceeding as to set your house on fire. For politeness is like a counter — an avowedly false coin, with which it is foolish to be stingy. A sensible man will be generous in the use of it. It is customary in every country to end a letter with the words:— your most obedient servant — votre très-humble serviteur — suo devotissimo servo. (The Germans are the only people who suppress the word servant — Diener — because, of course, it is not true!) However, to carry politeness to such an extent as to damage your prospects, is like giving money where only counters are expected.

Wax, a substance naturally hard and brittle, can be made soft by the application of a little warmth, so that it will take any shape you please. In the same way, by being polite and friendly, you can make people pliable and obliging, even though they are apt to be crabbed and malevolent. Hence politeness is to human nature what warmth is to wax.

Of course, it is no easy matter to be polite; in so far, I mean, as it requires us to show great respect for everybody, whereas most people deserve none at all; and again in so far as it demands that we should feign the most lively interest in people, when we must be very glad that we have nothing to do with them. To combine politeness with pride is a masterpiece of wisdom.

We should be much less ready to lose our temper over an insult,— which, in the strict sense of the word, means that we have not been treated with respect,— if, on the one hand, we have not such an exaggerated estimate of our value and dignity — that is to say, if we were not so immensely proud of ourselves; and, on the other hand, if we had arrived at any clear notion of the judgment which, in his heart, one man generally passes upon another. If most people resent the slightest hint that any blame attaches to them, you may imagine their feelings if they were to overhear what their acquaintance say about them. You should never lose sight of the fact that ordinary politeness is only a grinning mask: if it shifts its place a little, or is removed for a moment, there is no use raising a hue and cry. When a man is downright rude, it is as though he had taken off all his clothes, and stood before you in puris naturalibus . Like most men in this condition, he does not present a very attractive appearance.

Alexander III

01-18-2012, 07:48 PM

Most of my friends are non-academic types who know little-to-nothing about literature and art, and I prefer it that way. I've found that outside of an academic setting, I usually can't stand the smugness of "intellectuals." Maybe I just haven't found the right ones. I'd much rather just BS and play video game with a buddy. After all, I enjoy Family Guy and South Park more than an opera.

I am with you on this, the only thing worst than a dim man is a dim man convinced he is clever, and many of those are found amongst the pseudo-cultured.

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-18-2012, 08:01 PM

^ Bingo.

stlukesguild

01-18-2012, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by stlukesguild
I have found over the years that not many share my passions for music, literature, and art... but this does not mean that they are inherently less intelligent or unsophisticated than myself?

You frequently imply that your tastes are "better" than those of other people. I could dig in your previous posts if you want to deny it, but I wouldn't even try if I were you. Why is that okay, but openly saying "dim people exist and I don't relish talking to them because they discuss things which bore me" not okay?

My own tastes are certainly better for myself. And there is also the issue of experience and knowledge within a given field. I have had any number of these doctor/lawyer/accountant friends suggest that I would like Dan Brown. I don't go out of my way to tear him apart, but I do suspect that my thoughts are no different from theirs were I to start raising some debate within their field of expertise.

Originally Posted by stlukesguild-
parents who often dropped out of school and are struggling day to day to survive in a tough urban environment. At the same time, I think this is equally a necessity as an artist. An art born solely of academia is quite likely to be sterile and lifeless. Picasso suggested that "real art" was created in the same manner that the aristocracy produced children during the Renaissance: through a merger of the high and low... the aristocratic and the peasant.

You do realize that it's elitist to call a highschool drop-out "low" and equate them with peasants, right? The whole "I do it for my art" vibe you've got going is even more comically SoHo.

In case you missed the gist of the quote, Picasso was referring to art and its sources and art most certainly still employs the terminology of "high" and low" although the terms are commonly used in quotes for the simple reason that the lines between each are being consistently eroded or blurred. To build upon "high art" means to build upon the art of the museums. To build upon "low art" means to build upon the art of popular culture, the mass media, comics, cartoons, television, popular films, Hollywood film stars, rock and roll, pornography, etc... A large movement of contemporary artist openly embrace the term "low" or "lowbrow" (and one painter brazenly refers to himself as a "kitsch artist") in stark opposition to the contemporary art rooted in academia.

Peasants and class aren't really an issue I have ever seen raised in the US outside of the realm of money. The "upper class", "middle class", and "lower class" refer almost exclusively to income. The average PhD. student would likely be "lower class" while one might have little more than an 8th grade education and little knowledge of interest of arts, culture, science, history, etc... and still been deemed "upper class" in the US based solely upon one's success in business.

stlukesguild

01-18-2012, 08:07 PM

Neely- It's not that I'm constantly walking around with the need to philosophise or anything like that, but there is still a need to discuss the things which interest you, I think this is only natural.

When I was at university two nights a week I could get all of that out of my system, like visiting some high class hooker.

Interesting analogy :lol:

Then again a lot of such 'discussion' (usually in the pub) involved whinging about word counts or various assignments - there weren't much philosophizing going on, so I'm not really missing much on that front.

Generally though, when I think about it, most of my conversations involve moaning about things -

That is true as well. Whenever I have gone back a taken courses for CEUs and the like I haven't really found the majority of the students were engaging much in deeper philosophical discussions of art and art history. Far more likely they were moaning about the requirements... which were in all reality, ridiculously light.

JuniperWoolf

01-19-2012, 06:25 AM

There is a social rule, and it's growing as the Kardashian/screaming reality show culture has become the societal norm. That rule is that any sort of intellectual conversation or use of any words with more than a syllable is explicitly discouraged. There is explicit but certain and growing anti-intellectual mindset, so much so that even to call someone an intellectual is considered derogatory. Politicians are dummed down by their advisors in campaign preparation - more and more so.

I experience the opposite. I quote romantic poetry to jokingly hit on the girls I work with and it makes them blush and all giggly like. I also get a lot of respect for my punchy one-liners, and for some reason whenever someone sees me reading a book or doing something "geeky" they try to talk to me about how much they like The Big Bang Theory.

I may like poetry and philosophy and classical music, but my family is humble and for much of my life I was, and to some degree still am, unsophisticated.

I like to combine the two aesthetics. Contrast is my favorite thing, it's just cool when you find a motorcycle mechanic who can quote Faust or a high-ranking scientist with punk rock patches on his lab coat. Also, when you're both crass and educated it throws people off.

My own tastes are certainly better for myself.

Haha, yeah, uh huh. I'm sure that's what you meant when you posted the following in a recent thread:

So you have the right to impose your bad taste in music upon all those around you? Give me a break. When I'm off work and I'm popping in some Bach on my CD player I don't want to hear your hip-hop blasting from across the street. I can easily look away or ignore your bad taste in clothing. It is not so easy when it comes to noise.

But I'm sure that you don't mean that their taste is bad, right? Just that it's bad for you. :rolleyes5:

*cough*hypocrite*cough* Oh, excuse me.

Anyway, like I was saying, you're clearly just as snobby as the rest of us so let's not play pretend that you're the proletariat champion, shall we?

tonywalt

01-19-2012, 11:39 AM

AuntShecky

01-19-2012, 01:48 PM

And if you happen to be wondering just what the virtue of "humility" entails,
here's a good example right here:

I have found over the years that not many share my passions for music, literature, and art... but this does not mean that they are inherently less intelligent or unsophisticated than myself. I have met (and in some instances am friends) with doctors, lawyers, architects, CEOs, educators, etc... These people are not stupid. They may be ignorant of literature or art... but no less so than I am ignorant of the law or medicine or architectural engineering. I might even say that a great many people I have known who have worked in less glamorous careers have proven no intelligent on many occasions.

Now as far as the alleged correlation between sophisticated tastes and intelligence goes, it might do us well to keep in mind that there are various kinds of intelligence, even though there might be differences in degrees (no pun intended.) There are book smarts and street smarts, cerebral intelligence and emotional intelligence and so forth.

I have learned just as much from mentally disabled people than I have from highly educated professionals. Folks in various walks of life may not have had economic or academic opportunities yet do their jobs expertly, no matter how seemingly "low level" their occupation may be. If one is fortunate enough to have friends like that--as equals, with no condescension involved, one would soon realize that these folks contribute greatly to society, and that one, personally, can learn much from them. By that I mean learning about life, learning how to be a good human being through their good examples. And we can benefit from each other, no matter how old we may be.

Even so, there is in the long history of my country an inherent distrust or disdain for higher learning and lofty cultural pursuits: an undercurrent of "anti-intellectualism" which over the centuries various demagogues used as a focal point in order to exploit by manipulating resentment. Part of this comes from the early colonial desire to cut completely the European "Old World" ties, which, along with a rigid social class system, prized cultural excellence as an important value in society. (We still , however, have a very real economic class system in my country, which recently has come to the forefront of our collective consciousness). Many Americans, such as the ones the OP cited, do embrace the Arts and various intellectual pursuits, but many others in all regions of the U.S.--not just in the South or the rugged, still "wild" West-- scoff and reject what they may perceive as effete or "useless" (in a practical, money-making sense.)

I truly believe that our most important shared value to be life-affirming, to embrace the positive attributes of being human, whatever that concept may ultimately mean.

stlukesguild

01-19-2012, 04:01 PM

Emil Miller

01-19-2012, 04:15 PM

stlukesguild

01-19-2012, 05:00 PM

Now as far as the alleged correlation between sophisticated tastes and intelligence goes, it might do us well to keep in mind that there are various kinds of intelligence, even though there might be differences in degrees (no pun intended.) There are book smarts and street smarts, cerebral intelligence and emotional intelligence and so forth.

Yes... Harold Gardner's studies of the human brain have largely proven that there is no such thing as "intelligence" but rather "intelligences". There is an intelligence involved with confronting mathematical problems that is different from the intelligence involved in music, language, emotions, or even sports. Gardner's studies suggest that the great athlete is not simply more agile or "talented" than his or her opponent, but rather "more intelligent"... capable of anticipating the likely moves of an opponent and countering them more rapidly.

This realization has only begun to influence the manner in which we teach.

I have learned just as much from mentally disabled people than I have from highly educated professionals. Folks in various walks of life may not have had economic or academic opportunities yet do their jobs expertly, no matter how seemingly "low level" their occupation may be. If one is fortunate enough to have friends like that--as equals, with no condescension involved, one would soon realize that these folks contribute greatly to society, and that one, personally, can learn much from them. By that I mean learning about life, learning how to be a good human being through their good examples. And we can benefit from each other, no matter how old we may be.

There was an interesting test given out to educators some time back in which questions related to the ability to survive and succeed in various social contexts. Most of us were less than comfortable with some of the questions relating to realities of the very wealthy, but the questions concerning survival in the 'hood were even more revealing... questions such as "Where can you get a gun that can't be traced on a moment's notice?" "Where can you get free meals in the immediate neighborhood and on which days of the week?" "Where can you get free or inexpensive medical care in the neighborhood?" "Which retailers will accept food stamps for cash so that you can purchase non-food items?"

Much of what some consider intelligence is merely acquired knowledge related to the environment that we work and live in.

Even so, there is in the long history of my country an inherent distrust or disdain for higher learning and lofty cultural pursuits: an undercurrent of "anti-intellectualism" which over the centuries various demagogues used as a focal point in order to exploit by manipulating resentment.

That is true. Whereas I would desire that my political leaders be among the most intelligent, we quite often come upon debates in which an opponent is painted as an "elitist" or a "snob" for the simple reason that not only did he or she attend a highly regarded university, but he or she actually excelled in his or her studies. Such, it is assumed, should be seen as insulting to a "real American".

Part of this comes from the early colonial desire to cut completely the European "Old World" ties, which, along with a rigid social class system, prized cultural excellence as an important value in society. (We still , however, have a very real economic class system in my country, which recently has come to the forefront of our collective consciousness). Many Americans, such as the ones the OP cited, do embrace the Arts and various intellectual pursuits, but many others in all regions of the U.S.--not just in the South or the rugged, still "wild" West-- scoff and reject what they may perceive as effete or "useless" (in a practical, money-making sense.)

Unfortunately true. Of course there is the reverse argument. In the various moneyed communities of the West there is a burgeoning of art galleries and arts institutions. The Huston Opera, for example, is a leading force in supporting contemporary composers. But we have the academic elite who would have everyone believe that the popular efforts of the Huston Opera or the galleries of Scottsdale, Arizona (among other places) are but purveyors of populist kitsch, while they represent the real art. Taken to the extreme, we have the artists who believe they are entitled to government grants (which are essentially tax dollars) without owing the least bit to the audience from whom these tax dollars are taken. Indeed, many feel it is their right to be openly disdainful of masses while still expecting them to fund their artistic endeavors.

I truly believe that our most important shared value to be life-affirming, to embrace the positive attributes of being human, whatever that concept may ultimately mean.

:iagree:

KCurtis

01-19-2012, 07:02 PM

It's true about the social mechanics of it all. I get quite a stong impression that some people are unsettled and vaguely threatened by someone who would rather discuss opera than football, Shakespeare than soap opera. Some people find an interest in non-mainstream pursuits troubling - I can't help but feel it has something to do with pack mentality. That which is different is repulsive.

It is pack mentality. People want to belong to the group- that means they want to agree with people. I find it frustrating also, and I have very few people I can talk with about music and literature. I do like some mindless dribble- I watch one soap opera after work, after working in a school all day I need a mind break.

KCurtis

01-19-2012, 07:06 PM

Most of my friends are non-academic types who know little-to-nothing about literature and art, and I prefer it that way. I've found that outside of an academic setting, I usually can't stand the smugness of "intellectuals." Maybe I just haven't found the right ones. I'd much rather just BS and play video games with a buddy. After all, I enjoy Family Guy and South Park more than an opera.
I don't like opera, I'm still a rock and roll person and I like it loud, and I still like punk rock. I don't like smugness either, and there is a place for intellectual conversation, just not all the time. A nice balance is a good thing.

KCurtis

01-19-2012, 07:19 PM

And if you happen to be wondering just what the virtue of "humility" entails,
here's a good example right here:

I have learned just as much from mentally disabled people than I have from highly educated professionals. Folks in various walks of life may not have had economic or academic opportunities yet do their jobs expertly, no matter how seemingly "low level" their occupation may be. If one is fortunate enough to have friends like that--as equals, with no condescension involved, one would soon realize that these folks contribute greatly to society, and that one, personally, can learn much from them. By that I mean learning about life, learning how to be a good human being through their good examples. And we can benefit from each other, no matter how old we may be.

Thankyou for posting so eloquently on the subject of intelligence. As an educator and mother of a mentally disabled person, I certainly agree with your statement. It is impossible to measure all intelligences with an IQ number. My son is so smart in certain areas, and to meet him you would not believe his IQ is as low as it is. I have learned more from a downs syndrome student I had- one who knew so well what is truly important in life. And another down syndrome student who had to correct MY mistakes, three times-and the subject was English!

Delta40

01-19-2012, 07:47 PM

I don't crap on other people because they don't have a high education or the tastes I like. In my experience, people from all walks of life are what make this such an interesting place to be. The journeys which we take are diverse and I find myself moved by those turnings that people have taken along the way. That is what interests me. I often sit in the courtyard of a psychiatric hospital and find amazing inspiration there - not just in the patients but in the clinical staff who work there too. How much distance is there between the psychiatrist and the patient I wonder? So we're all human and some choose to cloak themselves in numerous ways as if to separate them from the obvious without really knowing or even caring about the lives of those they wish to feel superior to. That I believe is a flaw within them rather than anyone else. Aunt Shecky gave a good example. Nobody wishes to condemn personal taste, but my point is these tastes or achievements alone are not evidence that a person is anywhere further along the hierarchy of needs and to be human in this world is the greatest experience of all.

Darcy88

01-19-2012, 09:32 PM

SLG quote-My own tastes are certainly better for myself.

Haha, yeah, uh huh. I'm sure that's what you meant when you posted the following in a recent thread:

So you have the right to impose your bad taste in music upon all those around you? Give me a break. When I'm off work and I'm popping in some Bach on my CD player I don't want to hear your hip-hop blasting from across the street. I can easily look away or ignore your bad taste in clothing. It is not so easy when it comes to noise.

But I'm sure that you don't mean that their taste is bad, right? Just that it's bad for you.

*cough*hypocrite*cough* Oh, excuse me.

What on earth does insisting that someone not go about blasting their stereo at all hours of the night have to do with assuming that your tastes are superior to everyone else' around you? It is quite possible that in the right context that I will have no problem listening to nearly anything. But even if I do think someone's taste in music is bad and that they are completely ignorant of literature, I don't think I've yet to go about describing everyone else around me as "stupid", "objectively dim", "boring", "with the IQ of a slug", or "losers". Such an attitude seemly demands a degree of pretentiousness that few can help but fall short. In other words, I cant say that you have done much to prove your profound knowledge in intellect to such a point that we might fully understand your looking upon all lesser mortals as mere morons.

I see where you're coming from, but you seem unwillling to admit that there is a sizable percentage of the population which one could justifiably label "stupid." Just this morning I was sitting across from a girl on the bus who was reading Macbeth. Another girl got on and while walking by said "that book is so gay." The other responded "I know. Why do they make us read this boring crap?" I worked construction a few summers. Any mention of Shakespeare or Bach or any other esteemed cultural figure was met with derision. If I had mentioned that I enjoy opera I probably would have been openly mocked and ostracized. There is not merely an indifference but an actual hatred had by many for all forms of higher culture. A massive amount of people are aliterate, simply choosing not to read. Much of popular culture - sitcoms, films, cds - are entirely devoid of any intellectual or aesthetic quality. I would not feel comfortable condemning the majority as stupid. Maybe its a third that are stupid, a third that are average and a third that are intelligent, with a varying spectrum present within all three.

mona amon

01-20-2012, 12:36 AM

Art, literature etc aren't the only interesting things in the world, though it did take me a while to realise that! I now understand that my trouble fitting in with others was more to do with childhood issues and shyness than with my liking books that they'd never even heard of.

On the whole people talk about a wide variety of subjects, mostly to do with the day to day living of life, which is not at all uninteresting, often entertaining and often instructive. Having said that, I usually much prefer to curl up with a book than go for a party, but once there I'm quite happy that I went.

As for art and literature, thank goodness for the internet and forums such as this! :cheers2:

JuniperWoolf

01-20-2012, 04:00 AM

What on earth does insisting that someone not go about blasting their stereo at all hours of the night have to do with assuming that your tastes are superior to everyone else' around you?

Um, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not discussing the old topic, I'm referencing the language that you used and the fact that you literally called everyone else's taste "bad" because they don't listen to Bach and instead would rather listen to hiphop. You clearly believe that some things are "better" than others. You've made several similar posts over the years, you've said things so snobby that they've made me dry heave. Then, less than three weeks later, you personally attacked me for doing the same thing simply because you don't like me. You are a HYPOCRITE.

But even if I do think someone's taste in music is bad and that they are completely ignorant of literature, I don't think I've yet to go about describing everyone else around me as "stupid", "objectively dim", "boring", "with the IQ of a slug", or "losers".

They are. You're trying to defend the greasy 65 year old men (LOSERS) who hit on me even though you don't know them? You're also trying to defend random strangers in my town who you've never even met? Trust me, I've met some VERY stupid people, I used to proof read their letters to the newspaper's public forum section. I'd say 40% of them were almost illegible, I had to guess my way through them and it's no one's fault but their own that they never learned how to construct a basic sentence. They had every oppertunity to learn, they simply chose not to. Do you seriously believe that such people don't exist (meaning that you would essentially have to never leave your house, turn on the radio, go on the internet or watch tv), or are you just grasping at straws?

Personally I would go for 'objectively dim'.

I might do likewise if it weren't for the fact that I can't outright call you "dim" since there's no such thing as a "dim" person in PC land.

Darcy88

01-20-2012, 04:28 AM

Lokasenna

01-20-2012, 06:34 AM

Alexander III

01-20-2012, 06:51 AM

Um, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not discussing the old topic, I'm referencing the language that you used and the fact that you literally called everyone else's taste "bad" because they don't listen to Bach and instead would rather listen to hiphop. You clearly believe that some things are "better" than others. You've made several similar posts over the years, you've said things so snobby that they've made me dry heave. Then, less than three weeks later, you personally attacked me for doing the same thing simply because you don't like me. You are a HYPOCRITE.

They are. You're trying to defend the greasy 65 year old men (LOSERS) who hit on me even though you don't know them? You're also trying to defend random strangers in my town who you've never even met? Trust me, I've met some VERY stupid people, I used to proof read their letters to the newspaper's public forum section. I'd say 40% of them were almost illegible, I had to guess my way through them and it's no one's fault but their own that they never learned how to construct a basic sentence. They had every oppertunity to learn, they simply chose not to. Do you seriously believe that such people don't exist (meaning that you would essentially have to never leave your house, turn on the radio, go on the internet or watch tv), or are you just grasping at straws?

I might do likewise if it weren't for the fact that I can't outright call you "dim" since there's no such thing as a "dim" person in PC land.

Relax St.lukes and Emil are only behaving in said agressive and awkward manner because of the whole young vs old ego trip which makes people more agressive because they find they are no loger defending themselves, they are defending their entire status qua genereation which they know will age even more and be replaced by the younger generation. Its a pennis thing, and when we are older we will do it to.

It's like the new guy enetring a group with to much confidence, the alphas of that group will hit him hard to take him down a peg untill he has earnt said confidence in their eyes.

Emil Miller

01-20-2012, 07:26 AM

I might do likewise if it weren't for the fact that I can't outright call you "dim" since there's no such thing as a "dim" person in PC land.

That's a debatable point but there is no doubt that there are some rude and conceited people there.

Drkshadow03

01-20-2012, 08:29 AM

You guys don't go down to the local pub, get some fried mozzarella, a beer, and start talking about Dante and Kant, while glancing up at the game playing on the large flat screen?

JuniperWoolf

01-20-2012, 08:42 AM

Relax St.lukes and Emil are only behaving in said agressive and awkward manner because of the whole young vs old ego trip which makes people more agressive because they find they are no loger defending themselves, they are defending their entire status qua genereation which they know will age even more and be replaced by the younger generation. Its a pennis thing, and when we are older we will do it to.

It's like the new guy enetring a group with to much confidence, the alphas of that group will hit him hard to take him down a peg untill he has earnt said confidence in their eyes.

*sigh* Aw damn, is that what this is? Again?

Drkshadow03

01-20-2012, 08:48 AM

JuniperWoolf

01-20-2012, 09:06 AM

You must be one of the few people on this earth who doesn't have the IQ of a slug!

I said that was a misconception based on daily interaction, just like how Darcy thought that he might be a genius based on the slugs around him, the ones chucking fried rice at him.

Emil Miller

01-20-2012, 11:41 AM

I worked construction a few summers. Any mention of Shakespeare or Bach or any other esteemed cultural figure was met with derision. If I had mentioned that I enjoy opera I probably would have been openly mocked and ostracized. There is not merely an indifference but an actual hatred had by many for all forms of higher culture.

This may be true, although perhaps it's a fairly recent phenomenon now that the entertainment corporations such as Sony, Fox, Turner etc. have the ability to reach and dumb down a greater populace than previously. I don't think it has been a universal concept, I can remember long ago sitting in my overalls among the beer bottles on my work bench in a German steelworks and smoking whilst reading Scott Fitzgerald short stories, but my workmates didn't show any disdain while they enjoyed their lunch break in other pursuits. I don't know how they would react now of course.

LitNetIsGreat

01-20-2012, 01:26 PM

You guys don't go down to the local pub, get some fried mozzarella, a beer, and start talking about Dante and Kant, while glancing up at the game playing on the large flat screen?

I don't think I've ever had fried mozzarella. In the pub we usually have bags of crisps and rip them open and lay them on the table like a poor man's tapas. It does the trick. I don't like pubs with TVs. I go out to escape the TV! I'm not into post-modern pub experiences.

*sigh* Aw damn, is that what this is? Again?

This debate doesn't exist...only in the minds of the young...

tonywalt

01-20-2012, 01:47 PM

On a good Alpha display I like to club the rival, hear the lamentations of his women, and drag them back to my cave for caviar and Tolstoy.

cacian

01-20-2012, 01:54 PM

it all depends on what sophistication entails what it means.
I enjoy watching pointless programmes especially the ones that entails real people interacting because they are natural and their behaviour/attitudes and what they say is not not scripted.
I take a lof enjoyement watching and listening to people interact after few drink because they conduct themsleves in a fun way and it makes me laugh no ends.
They act out to the camera and that is a scream to watch.
There is nothing more funnier then watching people's humour unfold.
That is sophisitication for me because it is easy, effortless is the word I am looking for.

Varenne Rodin

01-20-2012, 02:16 PM

"Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming. This is a fault. Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated. For these there is hope. They are the elect to whom beautiful things mean only beauty." - Oscar Wilde

cafolini

01-20-2012, 02:25 PM

Varenne Rodin

01-20-2012, 02:32 PM

And those who find beauty in just the eyes of the beholder are the ugly.

If you're saying beauty is not just an opinion of an individual, you're in agreement with the quote I posted.

tonywalt

01-20-2012, 02:35 PM

it all depends on what sophistication entails what it means.
I enjoy watching pointless programmes especially the ones that entails real people interacting because they are natural and their behaviour/attitudes and what they say is not not scripted.
I take a lof enjoyement watching and listening to people interact after few drink because they conduct themsleves in a fun way and it makes me laugh no ends.
They act out to the camera and that is a scream to watch.
There is nothing then poeple's humour and together enjoying themselve.
That is sophisitication for me because it is easy, effortless is the word I am looking for.

I suppose it depends on whether one considers pointless programmes, "real people interacting"(a reality show?), and people "acting out" for the camera(ok, staged reality TV) sophisticated?

Varenne Rodin

01-20-2012, 02:53 PM

My point, Caf, was that there is not much of a gray area for sophistication.

Emil Miller

01-20-2012, 03:09 PM

[QUOTE=Neely;1108022]I don't think I've ever had fried mozzarella. In the pub we usually have bags of crisps and rip them open and lay them on the table like a poor man's tapas. It does the trick. I don't like pubs with TVs. I go out to escape the TV! I'm not into post-modern pub experiences.
QUOTE]

Got to agree here Neely.The question is where are the pubs that don't have television? I can imagine you sitting down to a decent pint when suddenly the Go Compare man starts bawling out in the background. I can see the headline now: MAN RUNS RIOT IN SHEFFIELD PUB.

cacian

01-20-2012, 04:24 PM

I suppose it depends on whether one considers pointless programmes, "real people interacting"(a reality show?), and people "acting out" for the camera(ok, staged reality TV) sophisticated?

well sophistication is about something that most of us are missing out on.
My little mind is telling me sophistication is the art or the ability to capture without the help of a camera, humour and laughter in one or more especially when those involved in humour are not being aware of being humourous or funny.

That is one of my definition of being sophisticated.

KCurtis

01-20-2012, 06:37 PM

I don't crap on other people because they don't have a high education or the tastes I like. In my experience, people from all walks of life are what make this such an interesting place to be. The journeys which we take are diverse and I find myself moved by those turnings that people have taken along the way. That is what interests me. I often sit in the courtyard of a psychiatric hospital and find amazing inspiration there - not just in the patients but in the clinical staff who work there too. How much distance is there between the psychiatrist and the patient I wonder?

How wonderful it is that you do this. Have you ever thought of volunteering at the hospital? It is people like you that these patients need. My son currently resides in a very good state hospital, and there are opportunities for the community to get involved. The hospital has been there for over 100 years, and the surrounding community is very accepting.

Drkshadow03

01-20-2012, 07:57 PM

I don't think I've ever had fried mozzarella.

Good stuff.

LitNetIsGreat

01-20-2012, 08:36 PM

Good stuff.
I'll have to try it then, but I think I would want some bread with it though.

Got to agree here Neely.The question is where are the pubs that don't have television? I can imagine you sitting down to a decent pint when suddenly the Go Compare man starts bawling out in the background. I can see the headline now: MAN RUNS RIOT IN SHEFFIELD PUB.

Well they are getting fewer but there's still a few around off the beaten track without TVs thankfully.

If the Go Compare man came on while I was in a pub I would get up and walk straight out without a doubt, no question. Chances are I would never return too.

Music is getting just as bad though, as are the crowds on a Saturday night. I walked in the Red Deer the other week and walked straight back out again. There was a band on. I can't be doing with the whole shouting conversation thing; I can't see the point.

See I told you I mostly moan about things. What's this thread about anyway? Why is it that every thread I post in usually has some type of pub related element to it?

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-20-2012, 11:16 PM

I don't go to bars, but I think I'd go to pubs.

stlukesguild

01-21-2012, 12:09 AM

I'm surprised this issue has proved so contentious. The intellecutals I've met and gotten to know seem perfectly fine identifying the bulk of humanity as philistines. Those celebrity magazines you see next to the checkout counter - people actually buy those.

OK... there are "morons" in the world. There are even "morons" here on LitNet:shocked: However, it seems more than a little bit pretentious if not conceited to assume that the majority of the population around you are "morons". Indeed it leads me to think of the old one liner, "Well if you're such a genius, how do you explain the fact that you let yourself be surrounded by "morons"?":D

Noting obvious intellectual and cultural deficits in people doesn't mean one necessarily lacks compassion for them. It also doesn't mean that one considers themselves "better." A person can be ignorant and still be loving and hard-working and honest.

But who decides what knowledge is essential to our being recognized as "well educated" and "sophisticated" as opposed to "ignorant" and "culturally deficient"... let alone "stupid"? Am I to simply assume that just because someone hasn't read Shakespeare since grade school and doesn't even know who Marcel Proust is, would rather listen to Katy Perry than Debussy, and only knows something of Leonardo DaVinci thanks to Dan Brown that they are inherently "ignorant"? But then what of all the facts that I am ignorant of? Most of what my wife knows of art, classical music, and literature she has learned from me... but as a nurse she knows many things that I am fully ignorant of. Simply put... we are all ignorant of most of the wealth of knowledge that there is to know.

You guys don't go down to the local pub, get some fried mozzarella, a beer, and start talking about Dante and Kant, while glancing up at the game playing on the large flat screen?

Oh! Certainly! Nothing better than Dante and Kant accompanied by a black and tan. Even better in a strip club.:cheers2::drool5:

it all depends on what sophistication entails what it means.
I enjoy watching pointless programmes especially the ones that entails real people interacting because they are natural and their behaviour/attitudes and what they say is not not scripted.
I take a lof enjoyement watching and listening to people interact after few drink because they conduct themsleves in a fun way and it makes me laugh no ends.
They act out to the camera and that is a scream to watch.

I loved maudlin pictures, the painted panels over doors, stage sets, the back-drops of mountebanks, old inn signs, popular prints; antiquated literature, church Latin, erotic books innocent of all spelling, the novels of our grandfathers, fairytales, children’s storybooks, old operas, inane refrains and artless rhythms.
-Arthur Rimbaud

I do not doubt but the majesty and beauty of the world are latent
in any iota of the world;
I do not doubt there is far more in trivialities, insects,
vulgar persons, slaves, dwarfs, weeds, rejected refuse than
I have supposed.
-Walt Whitman

mortalterror

01-21-2012, 01:31 AM

I said that was a misconception based on daily interaction, just like how Darcy thought that he might be a genius based on the slugs around him, the ones chucking fried rice at him.

What? He looked hungry!

Darcy88

01-21-2012, 02:04 AM

I'm surprised this issue has proved so contentious. The intellecutals I've met and gotten to know seem perfectly fine identifying the bulk of humanity as philistines. Those celebrity magazines you see next to the checkout counter - people actually buy those.

OK... there are "morons" in the world. There are even "morons" here on LitNet:shocked: However, it seems more than a little bit pretentious if not conceited to assume that the majority of the population around you are "morons". Indeed it leads me to think of the old one liner, "Well if you're such a genius, how do you explain the fact that you let yourself be surrounded by "morons"?":D

Noting obvious intellectual and cultural deficits in people doesn't mean one necessarily lacks compassion for them. It also doesn't mean that one considers themselves "better." A person can be ignorant and still be loving and hard-working and honest.

But who decides what knowledge is essential to our being recognized as "well educated" and "sophisticated" as opposed to "ignorant" and "culturally deficient"... let alone "stupid"? Am I to simply assume that just because someone hasn't read Shakespeare since grade school and doesn't even know who Marcel Proust is, would rather listen to Katy Perry than Debussy, and only knows something of Leonardo DaVinci thanks to Dan Brown that they are inherently "ignorant"? But then what of all the facts that I am ignorant of? Most of what my wife knows of art, classical music, and literature she has learned from me... but as a nurse she knows many things that I am fully ignorant of. Simply put... we are all ignorant of most of the wealth of knowledge that there is to know.

Seems we've found a little common ground, though it is not my position that the majority of people are stupid. Earlier I threw out the figure of one third. Maybe its a little less. I admit that it is pretentious and perhaps conceited of me to thus label them, but I don't think that makes it any less true.

I think the thread was intended to focus on culture, on books, art, philosophy, ect. Some people are starkly ignorant of these things and this fact cannot be denied.

There are those who are philistines and those who are stupid. The stupid will perforce be philistines but the philistines need not necessarily be stupid. Someone can care not a lick for literature or art or any refined thing and still be keen and quick of mind.

What you say of your wife is true also of my mother, a nurse herself. She wouldn't know Shakespeare from Sarte, Bach from Brahms, but the extent of her knowledge on health, anatomy, epidemiology and numerous other things is vast and impressive.

JuniperWoolf

01-21-2012, 05:34 AM

Hahaha, my buddy Andrew the DJ from the bar section just walked past me while I was reading and said (and I quote): "Reading? What the f*ck, Robin. Who reads?"

Emil Miller

01-21-2012, 07:11 AM

[QUOTE]They are getting fewer but there's still a few around off the beaten track without TVs thankfully.

Many such pubs in London have now closed but I don't think it's to do with TV, because the same applies to those that do have it. I read somewhere that they are closing at a rate of 35 per week.

Music is getting just as bad though, as are the crowds on a Saturday night. I walked in the Red Deer the other week and walked straight back out again. There was a band on. I can't be doing with the whole shouting conversation thing; I can't see the point.

There's a Victorian pub near Covent Garden called The Lord Salisbury which has a famous original period interior:

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/815/londonwc2coventgardensa.jpg

For many years it was the haunt of homosexuals until a new pub opened across the road called the Brief Encounter ( I kid you not ) where they decamped ( no pun intended ) en masse during the 1970s. Anyhow, I went into this pub about a year ago and it was packed to bursting point, and although they had music (?) going over the loudspeakers, all that could be discerned was a dull thumping sound above the clamour of people shouting to make themselves heard. It's the sheer insanity of switching on the speakers when nobody is at all interested. In fact this noise is is so prevalent now that there is something definitely Orwellian about it.

Why is it that every thread I post in usually has some type of pub related element to it?

Because you have your priorities right.

OrphanPip

01-21-2012, 07:20 AM

Emil Miller

01-21-2012, 07:36 AM

You know they do have bars, at least in Montreal we do, designed specifically for the pretentious artsy types. I was at this bar, Casa Del Popolo, for an album launch party, and it is described on its website as:

"Established in September 2000, Casa Del Popolo (The House of the People) is Montréal's only family-run neighborhood vegetarian hot-spot! Part fair-trade café, part music venue, part resto-bar and part art gallery… Where else would you find an eclectic mix of music, art, snacks, film, zines, spoken word and the hottest bartenders in town!

The Casa holds up to 55 people and is an intimate and warm place to see live performances. We are open from noon for soup, salad and sandwiches. Come on by and enjoy a relaxing afternoon."

I can't imagine there not being similar hipsterish hang-outs in London.

There are such places but they are usually known only to the cognoscenti who frequent them. There is a vast range of different pubs in London but, whatever one's inclination, they are mostly infested with pop music and/or television. I believe it is this that has seriously damaged the pub scene in England because, as Neely says, there are people who want to escape the TV and pop music, and the pub is one of the few places they can go to get away from it.

KCurtis

01-21-2012, 10:56 AM

We have coffee bars here for people who think they are intellectuals. :rolleyes:

Drkshadow03

01-21-2012, 11:42 AM

We have coffee bars here for people who think they are intellectuals. :rolleyes:

Where you can listen to poetry like this (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1108222&postcount=44) all the time!

stlukesguild

01-21-2012, 01:10 PM

It's the sheer insanity of switching on the speakers when nobody is at all interested. In fact this noise is is so prevalent now that there is something definitely Orwellian about it.

I've long suspected that the goal was to force the clientele into speaking... yelling... louder... putting a strain on their voices and a greater need for drinks.

Emil Miller

01-21-2012, 02:12 PM

[/QUOTE]I've long suspected that the goal was to force the clientele into speaking... yelling... louder... putting a strain on their voices and a greater need for drinks.[/QUOTE]

That may well be the case because I've noticed a lot of money going over the bar in such a manic atmosphere which doesn't happen in a quieter environment.

Darcy88

01-21-2012, 03:15 PM

You know they do have bars, at least in Montreal we do, designed specifically for the pretentious artsy types. I was at this bar, Casa Del Popolo, for an album launch party, and it is described on its website as:

"Established in September 2000, Casa Del Popolo (The House of the People) is Montréal's only family-run neighborhood vegetarian hot-spot! Part fair-trade café, part music venue, part resto-bar and part art gallery… Where else would you find an eclectic mix of music, art, snacks, film, zines, spoken word and the hottest bartenders in town!

The Casa holds up to 55 people and is an intimate and warm place to see live performances. We are open from noon for soup, salad and sandwiches. Come on by and enjoy a relaxing afternoon."

I can't imagine there not being similar hipsterish hang-outs in London.

Heck I live in a smallish town and that sounds exactly like where I hang out much of the time. Only the place here is more cafe than bar.

KCurtis

01-21-2012, 03:28 PM

Where you can listen to poetry like this (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1108222&postcount=44) all the time!

No, the poetry in the coffee bars are much worse.

Emil Miller

01-21-2012, 03:46 PM

We have coffee bars here for people who think they are intellectuals. :rolleyes:

I don't think that our coffee bars are associated with intellectuals as I use them myself and haven't heard anything that might be described as intellectual conversation, but they are used by women with the ubiquitous baby buggies that are dangerous when being wheeled about in an enclosed space. That's why I tend to sit outside with the smokers.

KCurtis

01-21-2012, 03:48 PM

I don't think that our coffee bars are associated with intellectuals as I use them myself and haven't heard anything that might be described as intellectual conversation, but they are used by women with the ubiquitous baby buggies that are dangerous when being wheeled about in an enclosed space. That's why I tend to sit outside with the smokers.

I said people who think they're intellectuals.

LitNetIsGreat

01-21-2012, 04:10 PM

Many such pubs in London have now closed but I don't think it's to do with TV, because the same applies to those that do have it. I read somewhere that they are closing at a rate of 35 per week.

Yes I've heard similar numbers. The only positive is that there is a serge in real ale pubs apparently and an increase in small breweries (there are about 10 in Sheffield alone). A friend of mine occasionally works for CAMRA and reckons so anyway. Of course they still represent the minority of pubs. I think a lot of those pubs going under are Carling and pool table pubs, though there has got to be some genuine casualties as well.

I went into this pub about a year ago and it was packed to bursting point, and although they had music (?) going over the loudspeakers, all that could be discerned was a dull thumping sound above the clamour of people shouting to make themselves heard. It's the sheer insanity of switching on the speakers when nobody is at all interested. In fact this noise is is so prevalent now that there is something definitely Orwellian about it.

Yes that's what I mean. Even some of the quieter pubs are like that on Saturday night, that and you are fighting to get to the bar, that's not my idea of fun so I tend to avoid, walk in and walk out job. It's a shame when they are spoiling nice pubs though like that Victorian one you shown earlier. Would probably be better midweek.

This is not a bad pub, just a couple of miles up the road from me, the Cow and Calf. It's an old converted farm house.

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/01/93/2019387_28299b80.jpg

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/74/93/1749319_d89d982f.jpg

There's a nice open fire place in there with all the original beams, stone floors, those gold pan things by the fire and horse ornaments etc inside. It's a Samuel Smith pub as well which means you get a fair pint for dirt cheap (three pints and a bag of crisp for a £5!), nice crisp too. There's no music either. I don't tend to go in that often though as generally head out to a few in town.

Oh, a view shot:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/17/80/c9/view-from-cow-and-calf.jpg

Emil Miller

01-21-2012, 05:52 PM

Yes I've heard similar numbers. The only positive is that there is a serge in real ale pubs apparently and an increase in small breweries (there are about 10 in Sheffield alone). A friend of mine occasionally works for CAMRA and reckons so anyway. Of course they still represent the minority of pubs. I think a lot of those pubs going under are Carling and pool table pubs, though there has got to be some genuine casualties as well.

Yes that's what I mean. Even some of the quieter pubs are like that on Saturday night, that and you are fighting to get to the bar, that's not my idea of fun so I tend to avoid, walk in and walk out job. It's a shame when they are spoiling nice pubs though like that Victorian one you shown earlier. Would probably be better midweek.

This is not a bad pub, just a couple of miles up the road from me, the Cow and Calf. It's an old converted farm house.

There's a nice open fire place in there with all the original beams, stone floors, those gold pan things by the fire and horse ornaments etc inside. It's a Samuel Smith pub as well which means you get a fair pint for dirt cheap (three pints and a bag of crisp for a £5!), nice crisp too. There's no music either. I don't tend to go in that often though as generally head out to a few in town.

Now that's what I call a real pub and the view is marvellous. If the pubs that are going under are of the Carling and pool table variety then it's no great loss. It's interesting that the number of small brewers springing up is increasing and more power to their elbow; the big boys have had it too easy for too long. I'm not a killjoy and if people want a manic environment with pop music blaring out and a screaming mob around them, then that's up to them but when virtually every pub becomes a place where it's impossible to hold an ordinary conversation, there is obviously something wrong with the society we live in.

tonywalt

01-21-2012, 05:53 PM

Lovely looking pub. It's just hard to find that sort of architecture and feel outside of the UK. There's always something tranquil and comforting about them.

Delta40

01-21-2012, 06:01 PM

How wonderful it is that you do this. Have you ever thought of volunteering at the hospital? It is people like you that these patients need. My son currently resides in a very good state hospital, and there are opportunities for the community to get involved. The hospital has been there for over 100 years, and the surrounding community is very accepting.

Perhaps I will when I'm no longer working.

LitNetIsGreat

01-21-2012, 06:53 PM

Lovely looking pub. It's just hard to find that sort of architecture and feel outside of the UK. There's always something tranquil and comforting about them.

Yes it would be one of (only) a few things I'd miss if I ever did leave the UK.

Now that's what I call a real pub and the view is marvellous. If the pubs that are going under are of the Carling and pool table variety then it's no great loss. It's interesting that the number of small brewers springing up is increasing and more power to their elbow; the big boys have had it too easy for too long. I'm not a killjoy and if people want a manic environment with pop music blaring out and a screaming mob around them, then that's up to them but when virtually every pub becomes a place where it's impossible to hold an ordinary conversation, there is obviously something wrong with the society we live in.

Yes the view is good and there's a wood around the corner which leads on to the Trans Pennine Trail. You wouldn't think with the photo that that just one/two miles down to the right is a big council estate though.

I don't know for sure that the majority of those going out of business are the Carling/pool table type but I suspect so, mostly anyway. I agree I think it's a great thing that so many micro breweries are doing well. My friend says that much of this is to do with the image of real ale becoming more popular of late. Whatever the reason it's a good thing. Sheffield for example had two big breweries in Wards and Stones, both of them are now disused. Instead as I say there are about 10 micro breweries with probably around 100 beers amongst them, the same is true of the rest of the country by scale.

True, there are loads of pubs around that are no gos for the noise. Much of any typical town centre is crammed full of these. Thankfully the odd one or two still exist in the towns and cities, down side streets etc, if you happen to know where to look.

kiki1982

01-21-2012, 07:03 PM

Haha, where we live that's a daily problem. I can't keep up acting for ages...

but many pub quizzes here seem to have a large number of questions about pop singers and sport rather than serious general knowledge questions.

Well, not only pub quizzes... The problem is that you start to look stupid as an intelligent person, because a 'politics' question is about the wife of a prime minister (uhm, excuse me, that's is no politicss, is it).

But that left to one side, I once went to a pub in Green Street Green and that pub quiz was an insult to humanity. Before you ask, my husband had the misfortune of his parents buying a house there in the late 50s - early 60s. It wasn't his fault, poor boy, because back then it was quite nice. Needless to say that in the ten years I have known him the area has gone down dramatically...

Anyway, so we were at this pub 'quiz' and one of the questions, I kid you not, was 'name something made of straw'. The even more astonishing possible answer was 'a hay stack'. Uhm, there is a huge difference between hay and straw, people. You may not know, but if you give the latter to the horse I think it rather starves... In fact it'll crap on it and such a stac is not even 'made' of hay. They were not amused when we started laughing harder and harder at the questions...

You have hit on something that i should have stated.

There is a social rule, and it's growing as the Kardashian/screaming reality show culture has become the societal norm. That rule is that any sort of intellectual conversation or use of any words with more than a syllable is explicitly discouraged. There is explicit but certain and growing anti-intellectual mindset, so much so that even to call someone an intellectual is considered derogatory. Politicians are dummed down by their advisors in campaign preparation - more and more so.

I would bet a dollar virtually everyone on Onlit know the rule and how far they can bend it, but they damn well have gotten some sort of social penalty for breaking it.

Oh, yes. The disadvantage of being intelligent is that you ask seemingly unimportant questions or embarrass people by thinking too far.

In fact I have to try to accomodate for the sort that discusses what is the best way to scrub your windows, that 'surely cilit bang (how however it may be written) is no good and expensive.' Well, duh, do you really have to talk about that. But when you then give a sensible reply that normal detergent and some vinegar is good enough then they stare at you as if you are an alien of the type of The Simpsons.

Here in my area the killer is that you like Kafka, find him terribly funny and a great writer. They will find you a frightening prospect for ever and ever :D.

My friends are no better, though. They are school friends and one of them cannot shut up - in fact she once claimed that when she went to Venice she ate in MacDonald's every day because there was nothing that was affordable. I told her before she went, having parents who still go every two years and blending in almost with the locals, that under no circumstances you should go to a main street to get food. I even indicated some places. Three times I tried, and three times I failed to explain to her again and again... The rest tries to think but has lost it.

Does anyone else have the same problem as I? I namely think in general terms and I rarely get upset. In fact at the time people are upset I will most probably be thinking about what could be done to solve it or what the possible consequences could be. Of course if the greatest part of humanity doesn't do what I do, that's good, isn't it for the people at the top...

As it is, I mostly end up listening to what is being said and getting bored or trying to see what people are like...

KCurtis

01-21-2012, 07:21 PM

Perhaps I will when I'm no longer working.

Me too! When I am no longer working, I want to be more of an advocate for the mentally ill.

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-21-2012, 11:56 PM

This whole thread has made me feel better about my seclusive and misanthropic ways.

Emil Miller

01-22-2012, 06:28 AM

This whole thread has made me feel better about my seclusive and misanthropic ways.

It's called growing up.

prendrelemick

01-22-2012, 08:22 AM

I wonder if you can get organic rare breed pork scratchings?

tonywalt

01-22-2012, 11:43 AM

.......

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-22-2012, 04:41 PM

It's called growing up.

Yeah, but I've been seclusive and misanthropic since high school.

Emil Miller

01-22-2012, 06:20 PM

Yeah, but I've been seclusive and misanthropic since high school.

Well perhaps you should get out more.

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-22-2012, 06:24 PM

Perhaps. . . .

Emil Miller

01-22-2012, 06:37 PM

Perhaps. . . .

Perhaps indeed, you may not know what you are missing.

http://youtu.be/M4ohha4jMQk

KCurtis

01-22-2012, 07:05 PM

Darcy88

01-22-2012, 07:10 PM

Well perhaps you should get out more.

Why? People suck.

http://www.lat34.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/UFC-Just-Bleed-Guy.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vytywViO9PU/So7oIgyrmlI/AAAAAAAABGc/YRNfR-dK2tM/s400/drunk+dude.JPG

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/5103998810_c39bec75c9.jpg

http://quarrylanefarms.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/hillbilly-security-marketing.jpg?w=235&h=252

LitNetIsGreat

01-22-2012, 07:30 PM

Just looking at that picture of the Cow and Calf makes me want to go back to London and find these pubs- we just don't have that here. Maybe one in Boston, but not as old. I would go in the daytime, just to look at it.
When we were in London the first time we went to the Cheshire Cheese- I think it is more of a restaurant than a pub, but it was ancient!!! I love things like that.

I bet you'd like the Strines then a 16th century inn. It's one of my favourite pubs and a regular stop off when out biking. The views are stunning and the inn is just about perfect. http://www.qype.co.uk/place/1830924-Strines-Inn-Sheffield/photos/2442052

Why? People suck.

I think you've stolen that second photo from Emil.

Emil Miller

01-23-2012, 08:57 AM

When we were in London the first time we went to the Cheshire Cheese- I think it is more of a restaurant than a pub, but it was ancient!!! I love things like that.

The Cheshire Cheese is famous for its association with Dr.Johnson who lived just at the back of the tavern and used it as his local.
There are ,of course, many old pubs in London with historical or literary connections:

I've had a few pints in The Spaniard's Inn which claims to have associations with the infamous highway robber, Dick Turpin and also features in Graham Greene's 'Stamboul Train'. The pub is also associated with famous literary figures such as Keats, Shelly and Byron and is mentioned in Charles Dickens’ 'The Pickwick Papers' as well as Bram Stoker’s Dracula.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5372/spaniards.png

This is the Museum Tavern which is right opposite the British Museum
and was the haunt of Karl Marx, who supposedly caused some damage when he got into a brawl with somebody on one of his breaks from writing Das Kapital in the museum. It was also used by Graham Greene on occasion. It's quiet touristy during the daytime but after museum hours it gets a group of regulars. I used to drink there quite often after work until the wife of a young couple who took it over told me that they were going to put in piped 'soul' music. I never returned.

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4116/museumtavernbloomsbury.jpg

The Sherlock Holmes is obviously a tourist type pub and that is what it gets, but it does have a connection with Holmes as it was once a hotel that is mentioned in one of the stories. It is directly opposite the building I once worked in but like others that worked there I never went into it as there were lots of alternatives in the vicinity.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2473/11240453140sherlockholm.jpg

Delta40

01-23-2012, 09:32 AM

They all look so interesting. I'll be in London next month. Care to recommend some other pubs?

Alexander III

01-23-2012, 12:40 PM

It's called growing up.

You could call it that, but in truth it's just giving up

Alexander III

01-23-2012, 01:13 PM

They all look so interesting. I'll be in London next month. Care to recommend some other pubs?

A bit off-topic , but while in London make sure to visit Covent Garden, it is one of the most beautifull places, with a distinguished arcade and lots of coffe shops and stores. It just has that relaxed local 19th century feel to it which sadly most of london lacks. It is beauty without grandness.

Also make sure to check out the DaVinci exehbition in Traflager Square!

Alexander III

01-23-2012, 01:30 PM

Why? People suck.

http://bostonvcblog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83424781853ef0133f3cef573970b-800wi

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CnKvK047uiw/TKschUtKREI/AAAAAAAAD_w/njV4wt5VLec/s1600/World+Most+Amazing+Temples+2.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/86613/istanbul-blue_mosque_at_night.jpg

http://www.african-solutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/paarl-south-africa.jpg

http://voiceinthedesert.netfirms.com/weblog/archives/images/photo1.JPG

http://media.smashingmagazine.com/cdn_smash/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/115-photos.jpg

http://www.photographyabdu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Beautiful-Night-In-Rome-Agnieszka-Borkowska.jpg

http://gencept.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Beautiful-Photography-Pedro-Terrinha.jpg

It is quite clear you have never been out of Canada. And you may be very well content living like a comfortable hamster in a cage your entire life. But don't ever council others to live like hamsters in cages, when there is such a world out there; which if they are lucky and brave enough, they might catch a glimpse of before they die.

OrphanPip

01-23-2012, 04:56 PM

It is quite clear you have never been out of Canada.

Oh ya, because if there's anything we don't have in Canada, it's picturesque scenery :rolleyes5:

Darcy88

01-23-2012, 05:48 PM

It is quite clear you have never been out of Canada. And you may be very well content living like a comfortable hamster in a cage your entire life. But don't ever council others to live like hamsters in cages, when there is such a world out there; which if they are lucky and brave enough, they might catch a glimpse of before they die.

Yes I live like a hamster in a cage. My hobbies include kickboxing, hiking, kayaking, and mountain-biking. In my 23 years I've already worked as a mill-wright, a roofer, a waiter, a prep chef, a farm-hand, a security guard, a barista, and other jobs that escape me now. I'm learning Spanish as I plan to go teach esl in South America once I complete my degree, and then China. It is quite clear you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

This photo is from what is practically my back-yard:

http://www.theblogismine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/National-Geographic-38th-Week-in-Breathtaking-Photos-03.jpg

This is Long Beach, also not that far. One of the premiere surfing destinations in the world.

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01341/web-tofino4_jpe_1341817cl-8.jpg

This is Della Falls, a somewhat short hike from where I am now. Its almost 500 metres tall.

http://www.whistlervancouverbc.com/parks/images/shannonFalls.jpg

Vancouver:

http://www.citysquaretravel.com/uploadedImages/City_Square_Travel/Sightseeing%20Image%201(1).jpg

That's just a few from my small corner of Canada. Quite the cage I've got.

KCurtis

01-23-2012, 06:03 PM

Thankyou Neely
Now I want to go back all the more. Someday. Sheffield looks wonderful, where is it from London?

Delta40

01-23-2012, 06:09 PM

This is the breathtaking view from my house

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h411/delta40/images-3.jpg

LitNetIsGreat

01-23-2012, 06:29 PM

Thankyou Neely
Now I want to go back all the more. Someday. Sheffield looks wonderful, where is it from London?

Ha, ha, it's not all like that unfortunately, but it's just over two hours on the train from London. York is a nice historic place up north and worth a visit, as it the likes of Whitby on the east coast.

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-23-2012, 06:38 PM

Perhaps indeed, you may not know what you are missing.

http://youtu.be/M4ohha4jMQk
Your argument isn't quite wowing me. It's more compelling when muted.

http://bostonvcblog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83424781853ef0133f3cef573970b-800wi

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CnKvK047uiw/TKschUtKREI/AAAAAAAAD_w/njV4wt5VLec/s1600/World+Most+Amazing+Temples+2.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/86613/istanbul-blue_mosque_at_night.jpg

http://www.african-solutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/paarl-south-africa.jpg

http://voiceinthedesert.netfirms.com/weblog/archives/images/photo1.JPG

http://media.smashingmagazine.com/cdn_smash/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/115-photos.jpg

http://www.photographyabdu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Beautiful-Night-In-Rome-Agnieszka-Borkowska.jpg

http://gencept.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Beautiful-Photography-Pedro-Terrinha.jpg

It is quite clear you have never been out of Canada. And you may be very well content living like a comfortable hamster in a cage your entire life. But don't ever council others to live like hamsters in cages, when there is such a world out there; which if they are lucky and brave enough, they might catch a glimpse of before they die.
Why is this a defense of people? There're no people there. :lol:

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-23-2012, 06:41 PM

Also, when we were in London, we were fortunate enough to stumble upon the Cheshire Cheese when coming out of the Tower of London. It had the best fried fish I've ever had in my life. If I ever make it back to London, I'll definitely be going there again.

Emil Miller

01-23-2012, 06:50 PM

They all look so interesting. I'll be in London next month. Care to recommend some other pubs?

The George is a pub I used to drink in some years ago that had an authentic London pub atmosphere. It is in Great Portland Street.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4303/thegeorgegtportlandstre.jpg

This is The Red Lion in Jermyn Street just off Piccadilly and, although quite small, has a real pub feel to it.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1143/pic844redlion.jpg

The Blue Posts is another one off of Piccadilly in Arlington Street on the corner of the Ritz hotel and is, consequently, rather civilised.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4692/imagesca3b4kz8blueposts.jpg

And here is The Audley, for some years my favourite pub among many that I don't have time to mention here. Situated in Mayfair and just past the American embassy in South Audley Street which is a continuation of North Audley Street off of the Marble Arch end of Oxford Street.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9538/imagescazz77evtheaudley.jpg

KCurtis

01-23-2012, 06:55 PM

Delta40

01-23-2012, 07:04 PM

Thanks Emil. I'm scribbling them down.

Emil Miller

01-23-2012, 07:17 PM

Thanks Emil. I'm scribbling them down.

They are all in the centre, except for The Spaniard's that I mentioned earlier which is in Hampstead but easily reachable by underground train.
One word of caution, I seldom drink in those pubs these days and they may have been invaded by barbaric trashy noise from loud speakers, although you're pretty safe in Mayfair where the weight of money keeps the rabble at bay; that was always the Audley's attraction for me

Mutatis-Mutandis

01-23-2012, 07:50 PM

Do you have any recommendations when it comes to fish, Emil? Any that tops Cheshire Cheese?

Emil Miller

01-23-2012, 08:02 PM

Do you have any recommendations when it comes to fish, Emil? Any that tops Cheshire Cheese?

Yes, try Scott's right next to The Audley. It's a famous fish restaurant frequented by pop singers and 'celebrities' but I think it's necessary to book in advance.

TurquoiseSunset

01-24-2012, 11:33 AM

The OP:

Many people on this forum have sophisticated tastes. It can be seen in the type of books, plays, opera, intellectual and vibrant abstract disussions, and the list goes on.

What do you do in general public gatherings where you cannot choose the company - and most of us have these. Do you switch over to the usual American Idol/X Factor, football, and the other parochial stuff? Do you ever get bored and let it show a bit?

When people are talking about things that don't interest me I just keep quiet and let them talk. If I find the conversation very tedious I will either leave or try to steer it in a different direction.

As for this situation:

There seems to be an unspoken social rule about not touching upon serious or intellectual subjects.

I have been in groups where the fact that I have, in some regards, so-called 'sophisticated' tastes, was looked down on. When I mention the classics I get this: :ack2:

I have been in groups where the fact that I have read Harry Potter, Twilight and Dan Brown has been looked down on. Oh wait...

I have been in groups where the fact that I wear makeup and occasionally heels automatically makes me some Paris Hilton-type airhead.

I have been in groups where the fact that I couldn't care less about fashion and do my own thing in that regard was looked down on.

"TS, what do you mean you like cooking, baking, sewing and cross-stitching? Do you not believe in feminism???? :ack2:"

"TS, what do you mean you don't need to get married and have kids to be happy???? Are you a feminist???? :ack2:"

And I can go on and on. The point is, whatever the group or topic, people like others to like what they like. Sometimes people expect me to say 'highly intellectual' things in order to be part of the conversation. Sometimes people expect me to not say those kinds of things...

Emil Miller

01-24-2012, 12:12 PM

Thanks Emil. I'm scribbling them down.

I forgot this one on the corner of Whitehall and right bang opposite parliament. I used to pass it every morning on my way to work at the Foreign Office but I never went in there. I have to go to that area next month so I might just pop in there for a quick one. It's known as the Prime Minister's local although I doubt that any PM has ever been in there; especially as there used to be 6 bars in the Palace of Westminster for Members of Parliament and House of Lords. Since Tony Blair did away with all-night sittings some of their bars have closed, so you might be standing next to a MP if you go there in the day time; if so, hang on to your money.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5249/42580379whitehallpub.jpg

tonywalt

01-24-2012, 02:58 PM

Do the members of Parliament pay for beverages? How does it work? All very clubby stuff!

Emil Miller

01-24-2012, 04:39 PM

Do the members of Parliament pay for beverages? How does it work? All very clubby stuff!

They are supposed to pay but it's an open secret that they often have it put on the slate. Annie's bar that was one of the most frequented was said to be owed quite a bit of money on account of members not paying up at the bar.
Given the recent excessive claims for expenses scandal that actually saw some of them imprisoned, it's hardly surprising that outstanding bar bills are a feature of the House of Commons. I don't know about the Lords but I remember reading the political columnist Paul Johnson who said that the House of Lords felt inherently corrupt and he always imagined that he was going to be accosted by some leathery old Earl and touched for a tenner.

tonywalt

01-24-2012, 05:03 PM

Well, it's good to know they are not taking the mickey quite as much as in yesteryear. The idea of paying for a politician's drinking session puts a sour taste in my mouth.

Emil Miller

01-24-2012, 06:37 PM

Well, it's good to know they are not taking the mickey quite as much as in yesteryear. The idea of paying for a politician's drinking session puts a sour taste in my mouth.

Mine too, but having written Pro Bono Publico, I could hardly be accused of being surprised.

Leland Gaunt

01-25-2012, 04:29 PM

Going back to a point that seemed to pop up, in the first few pages. Some people, used sports as an example of subjects they found stupid or boring. I can't help but feel that they should allow themselves to think about the sport in a more analytic way. For instance, in soccer there is a great deal of room to have an intelligent debate/discussion, and that is just regarding tactics. Due to its prominent and global stature, there are a great deal of off the field issues that pop up. Ian Ayre's recent statements on broadcasting, and of course the Luis Suarez "scandal". For these same reasons, soccer can be related to a country's political and societal problems, like Alex Bellos does in his book Futebol-The Brazilian Way of Life. The level of intelligence involved in a conversation, is determined by the participants, and one who just shuts off at the mere mention of a subject, is likely missing out on a chance to intelligently understand that topic.

Free pass on reality TV, that is just plain entertainment with almost no value. Though if these self-proclaimed cynics watched it more often, they would have wondrous examples of all their ill-thoughts on humanity. I caught the Survivor finale, over holiday break, and to my delight discovered one of the participants had masterfully wielded religion to manipulate the other participants!

Well said, TurquoiseSunset.

papayahed

02-04-2012, 11:55 AM

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