I'm interested in christianity..I want logical answers

[Mojtaba-Iraqi]

Hello.
Recently, I started looking up some facts and historical events about the Testaments, Jesus, and Christianity in general. So please, I want some academic logical answers.

#1: Would you please tell me about the history of the Bible and the process of translating it into English?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I'm sorry this doesn't answer your question, but the thread's title made me chuckle.

[Mojtaba-Iraqi]

Hey..How do you do?
You made me doubt...Is there something wrong?

[Haunted]

MI, religion is a matter of faith vs. reason. I flunked in Bible studies so I can't answer your question. Be patient and you will receive more meaningful responses from posters who are knowledgeable.

[YesNo]

Hello.
Recently, I started looking up some facts and historical events about the Testaments, Jesus, and Christianity in general. So please, I want some academic logical answers.

#1: Would you please tell me about the history of the Bible and the process of translating it into English?
There is an interesting history by Brian Moynahan called "God's Bestseller" which described the political issues around getting a translation of the Bible into English. One of the most famous translators, William Tyndale, was burnt at the stake for his translation. One of Tyndale's chief adversaries, Thomas Moore, canonized a Catholic saint in the 20th century, was beheaded.

[KCurtis]

I'm sorry this doesn't answer your question, but the thread's title made me chuckle.

You are a funny one; I did have to look at the title twice.

[MANICHAEAN]

It begs the question, "What is an illogical explanation of Christianity?"

I find it strange that this aspect of a major religion's beliefs is even raised, considering it's history and pedigree.

[BienvenuJDC]

If you want to study the translation and origin of the Bible, you would want to get into the area of study called Textual Criticisms. The King James Version of the Bible was translated in 1611 from the manuscript called the Textus Receptus (Received Text). At that time it was one of the few known texts, but since there have been many (thousands of) manuscripts that have been discovered since. Many of the modern versions have been translated with different methods from direct word for word translations to paraphrases. There have been several manuscripts that have been put together from the many parts of manuscripts that have been found. The Nestle-Allen text was combined with the United Bible Society text to get the NU text, which was used for the more reliable versions such as the New American Standard Bible. The New King James Version is an easier to read version from the Textus Receptus using more modern English. One of the latest translations that I have used is the English Standard Version.

If you have an interest in the area of Textual Criticisms, I can suggest some good books, but it is a very complex area of study. I will caution you on many of the books out there that they may be written with a bias to a particular version or manuscripts. Consider that any writing that highly condemns or praises one version probably contain biased viewpoints.

[Mojtaba-Iraqi]

MI, religion is a matter of faith vs. reason. I flunked in Bible studies so I can't answer your question. Be patient and you will receive more meaningful responses from posters who are knowledgeable.

Hello dear Haunted. I hope you are doing well.
I see! So, one has to deal with superstitions, since faith VS reason? or it is a matter of private confusion?


There is an interesting history by Brian Moynahan called "God's Bestseller" which described the political issues around getting a translation of the Bible into English. One of the most famous translators, William Tyndale, was burnt at the stake for his translation. One of Tyndale's chief adversaries, Thomas Moore, canonized a Catholic saint in the 20th century, was beheaded.
This is really strange! Is there any reason behind this fear from the translation?


It begs the question, "What is an illogical explanation of Christianity?"

I find it strange that this aspect of a major religion's beliefs is even raised, considering it's history and pedigree.
Why? You can have a look at Haunted's post...She does not know the answer too, though she is a native, and there are more available books about this subject around. I have another question concerning this matter.


Textual Criticisms

Or "Higher Criticism". But in fact, I could not find honesty in that field too, because Coleridge wrote a book about the Bible, and he mentioned some facts, but then, he was ridiculed, and he was even accused of being an addict.
By the way, I don't have any problem with the King James Bible, and I really enjoy reading its stories.
Anyway, thank you for the suggestion


Once, one mentioned that before this version, an earlier Bible's translation was refused and burnt by King James himself, because in the translated Bible, there were not much rights given to the ruler, or to be more specific, the king was not given an absolute power and right, next to God. My question is that "was the translated Bible gone under political desires?"

[OrphanPip]

I don't know of King James burning any Bibles, the switch over was accomplished simply by having the printing presses stop producing the old authorized translation for the new one. And the reason for the translation had more to do with bringing the KJV more in line with Anglican theology than reinforcing any rights of King James.

King James did however write his own books of political philosophy that defended the divine rights of kings. He also was fond of burning witches, everybody has hobbies I suppose.

[YesNo]

This is really strange! Is there any reason behind this fear from the translation?

At the time the stakes were high as I recall from Moynahan's work. The Catholic Church held power but the translations coming from Tyndale did not validate that authority. Essentially, the Greek for "church" was translated as "congregation" and the Greek for "priest" was translated as "elder" or "deacon". I also think the Greek for "charity" no longer implied that one had to give to the Catholic Church. I'm taking this from memory, but as I recall there were only a few critical words that caused the contention.

Thomas Moore was on the Catholic side and Tyndale on the budding Protestant side. As things turned out in the KJV, "church" was used because the Protestants now had their own Anglican Church to defend. Again, this is all from memory.

I'm sure the translations of the Quran have also stimulated controversies. A co-worker who gave me a copy of the Quran once warned me about the translation I picked up from a used-book store. I never did understand why the translation he gave me was better than the other one I already had and at the time wasn't interested in religious ideas enough to ask. Perhaps you do. The one I purchased was translated by Maulana Muhammad Ali associated with Ahmadiyyah Anjuman Isha'at Islam, whatever that is. The one he recommended was by Abdullah Yusuf Ali published by Asir Media.

[Calidore]

At the time the stakes were high as I recall from Moynahan's work. The Catholic Church held power but the translations coming from Tyndale did not validate that authority. Essentially, the Greek for "church" was translated as "congregation" and the Greek for "priest" was translated as "elder" or "deacon". I also think the Greek for "charity" no longer implied that one had to give to the Catholic Church. I'm taking this from memory, but as I recall there were only a few critical words that caused the contention.


I think your second sentence is the gist of it. My understanding is that the church at the time did not allow the public to own bibles; everything had to go through the priests, who were the only authorized speakers for God. Possession of a Bible by a civilian was punishable by death.

[Delta40]

I understood Henry the VIII made an edict at least in England that all copies of the Bible must be written in English. He was on the cover on them, larger than life surrounded by kneeling people while a rather small God floated above him somewhat in the background. That is the extent of my knowledge.

[Haunted]

Hello dear Haunted. I hope you are doing well.
I see! So, one has to deal with superstitions, since faith VS reason? or it is a matter of private confusion?

I'm well MI, thanks :)

You got my drift. Among Christians, Catholics are a superstitious bunch. You might have read it in the news once in a while that Jesus appears on a piece of toast; or a statue of Virgin Mary is shedding tears. These are our modern day miracles. To "logical" people, this is nonsense.

Christian miracles go back a long time, all the way to the beginning. The central figure of Christianity, Jesus, rose from the dead. Of course there's the immaculous conception that started it all.

There are physicists who attempted to explain Christian miracles using Quantum Physics and the concept of Singularity. They are a great read but I'll leave that out for now because it's off topic.

And as you said, it's "private confusion" indeed. Religion is certainly a very personal matter. That's why rebukes from atheists and ridicules are pointless and disrespectful. We believe what we want to believe and it's no one else's business. Religious tolerance should be taken seriously. As a Christian I'd like to learn about other religions to broaden my knowledge.

[MANICHAEAN]

Rambling.

The first and last paragraphs contradict each other.

[Mojtaba-Iraqi]

Thank you OrphanPip

This is a very nice summery YesNo. Concerning Quran, its translation is not a problematic matter, since its charm cannot be translated. So, no heated discussions are required to prove which translation is a standard one. I assume, it is the same case for the holy Bible too. I mean, the original Bible in Hebrew is more impressive, I guess.

You're right Calidore, but neither you, nor YesNo answered my question, or it is my problem in understanding. I want to know the real reason behind the fear from translating the Holy Bible.


He was on the cover on them, larger than life surrounded by kneeling people while a rather small God floated above him somewhat in the background.
I like your description Delta. How nice when literary flavor is mixed with theology!

Thank you Haunted. I'm afraid your comment does not maintain our objectivity toward different sects. Catholics are admired too, at least I do. Concerning the superstitions you've mentioned, I think they are not admitted by their scholars. Are they? ..... But dear, this is not convincing, when you say that faith is an individual case. You should have some justifications for being a Protestant, I assume.


Finally,
I want to know: Why understanding Bible was limited only to the clergy men?
And what modified this belief? What led the Bible to be at the hands of vulgar or common people?

[OrphanPip]

Finally,
I want to know: Why understanding Bible was limited only to the clergy men?
And what modified this belief? What led the Bible to be at the hands of vulgar or common people?

You'd probably want to review something about the history of Western Christianity as a whole, without getting into the issue of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

The Bible wasn't only limited to clergy men, but the Catholic Bible was produced exclusively in Latin, which meant that most people, if they could even read their own language, would not have access to the Bible. Catholic masses were traditionally performed in Latin well into the 20th century. Apart from this, Bibles were also predominantly produced by Catholic monks, and were expensive since they were all hand transcribed until the invention of the printing press in Germany.

The Protestant reformation, beginning in Switzerland (Calvin) and Germany (Luther) primarily, started translating Bibles into German and French, then their followers in England, like Tyndale translated it into English. The early Protestants turned back towards the Hebrew and Greek text for their translations because they viewed the Catholic tradition of Biblical scholarship with suspicion. This leads to a general attitude of moral superiority amongst Protestant sects who hold their Christianity generally to be closer to the meaning of God than the "corrupted" Catholic tradition. Calvinist traditions were particularly influential on English Protestantism because many English Protestant reformers gathered in Geneva where Calvin was active.

Why turn away from Latin? It's a big question with many layers. For some congregationalist Protestants, it was part of their belief in making the relationship of the believer to the faith direct rather than mediated through a clergy. Often these sects are organized around electing their clergy, rather than having their clergy imposed on them by a higher authority. Then you have the nationalist tendency.

Eventually, you get the Counter-Reformation in the Catholic Church, which responded to many of the early critiques levelled against the Church by Protestants.

The KJV is essentially an attempt by the Church of England to reach a middle ground between it's Puritanical Protestant branches, and it's more Catholic branches. Because Anglicanism is very Catholic in its structures despite forwarding certain Protestant values.

[Haunted]

Thank you Haunted. I'm afraid your comment does not maintain our objectivity toward different sects. Catholics are admired too, at least I do. Concerning the superstitions you've mentioned, I think they are not admitted by their scholars. Are they? ..... But dear, this is not convincing, when you say that faith is an individual case. You should have some justifications for being a Protestant, I assume.

What objectivity? I have said faith is very personal, at least to me. Next, I have no justifications for being a Protestant, which I am not. But anyone who is a Protestant it's fine by me.

There is no slight towards Catholics: Some have experiences that non believers would dismiss as superstitions, I was just using a word others can relate to. We can laugh at ourselves, we don't get offended so easily. As such it matters not to us what is "admitted", we are free thinkers exercising our first amendment rights under the US Constitution. Besides the Vatican is not going to drag us to prison. It's not that kind of society. Most of us enjoyed the Da Vinci Code, I myself is fascinated with science and technology. But at the same time we believe what we experienced and that's that.

[Mojtaba-Iraqi]

Thank you OrphanPip

I apologize Haunted if my post was not decent. I guess you are right.




#2- Was the Bible simply narrated from generations to generations, or it is a matter of divine inspiration?

[BienvenuJDC]

#2- Was the Bible simply narrated from generations to generations, or it is a matter of divine inspiration?

This is a question that is a matter of faith. Some believe that it was of divine inspiration, some do not.