How Important Is Ambition?

[Pensive]

'My ambition is handicapped by my laziness. It was true that I didn't have much ambition, but there ought to be a place for people without ambition, I mean a better place than the one usually reserved. How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, ****, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?' -Charles Bukowski

So folks, firstly how important is ambition in your life? Secondly how important do you think ambition should be in anybody's life? Can one truly be happy without being ambitious? Is there any kind of success possible without an ambitious nature?

[MANICHAEAN]

Dear Pensive
The end of ambition comes as a great relief. For a lot of my early life I struggled for the higher position, the bigger car etc. But now I'm happy in myself and don't really care what the job title is, or whether the car is an eye-catcher. Getting older, you realise more your priorities and invariably they are, (or should be) simpler. Close friends, family, a good meal & Jack Daniels on the rocks! The money is there in the background to give peace of mind.

Best wishes
M.

[Pensive]

Getting older, you realise more your priorities and invariably they are, (or should be) simpler.

You mean to say it's only young people who are ambitious? And if a young person doesn't place much importance to big cars, extravagant lifestyle and wants to move to a smaller town than remain in a big city, does it mean she/he is ahead of her/his age? Or does it just make her/him stupid because you could only perhaps afford not being too ambitious once you have moved out of a certain age having achieved something? Like you must be ambitious at some point of your life at least?

[JuniperWoolf]

Where I'm from, a person has the option to work on a rig for eighty straight days, 14 hours per shift. It's psychotic. The work is hard and the weather is brutal. There are rigs all throughout Northern Alberta and we're the only town within 400 square kms in this area, so rig guys sleep here when they aren't sleeping in the camps. They look like complete hell and they're very lonely, the chances of them getting hurt are very high, but MAN do they get paid well. They go home for two weeks, then they're back at it for another eighty days. Now that is financial ambition.

[papayahed]

'My ambition is handicapped by my laziness. It was true that I didn't have much ambition, but there ought to be a place for people without ambition, I mean a better place than the one usually reserved. How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, ****, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?' -Charles Bukowski

I dislike this quote on so many levels, most have been discussed ad infinitum on this site so no need to go into detail.



So folks, firstly how important is ambition in your life? Secondly how important do you think ambition should be in anybody's life? Can one truly be happy without being ambitious? Is there any kind of success possible without an ambitious nature?

Not so important. People always ask "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" or "How do you want your career to go?". Right now I am perfectly happy doing my current job. As long as I can say that I have no ambition to gain more. However, I have grown tired and bored with certain jobs and that was my impetus to move on.

[papayahed]

On the other hand some ambition was needed to finish my degree.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Originally Posted by Pensive
'My ambition is handicapped by my laziness. It was true that I didn't have much ambition, but there ought to be a place for people without ambition, I mean a better place than the one usually reserved. How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, ****, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?' -Charles Bukowski


I dislike this quote on so many levels, most have been discussed ad infinitum on this site so no need to go into detail.

How come? Personally I think that just about sums up the majority of working life quite nicely. I am familar with this passage. I think it's quite a good one, though I'm not a fan of Bukowski generally.

Edit: I have little work ambition as I view work as renting my time for money, a necessary evil. I do have a great amount of personal ambition/targets though which changes year by year. I invest a lot of time and energy in those. This is part of the reason I detest working life because it so completely pulls me away from what I want to be doing.

[Alexander III]

How come? Personally I think that just about sums up the majority of working life quite nicely.

But ambition is not about being mediocre, about waking up at 6:30 working 10 hours and making money for another man. Ambition is not to die just another namless mediocrity. It is about becoming the guy who moves millions if not billons, the man who has power and influence, the great man; not the namless mediocrity.

That is why that quote sucks. It is just so ridicoulously working class and ignorant that it becomes a horrible cliche, of a narrow view of the world.

[LitNetIsGreat]

But ambition is not about being mediocre, about waking up at 6:30 working 10 hours and making money for another man. Ambition is not to die just another namless mediocrity. It is about becoming the guy who moves millions if not billons, the man who has power and influence, the great man; not the namless mediocrity.

That is why that quote sucks. It is just so ridicoulously working class and ignorant that it becomes a horrible cliche, of a narrow view of the world.

But for the vast majority of people this is the reality of working life, working life is mediocrity. Even the big business man who moves millions is still a slave to the company. The only difference is that his chains are golden.

[papayahed]

How come? Personally I think that just about sums up the majority of working life quite nicely. I am familar with this passage. I think its quite a good one, though I'm not a fan of Bukowski generally.


In order to not derail this thread I'll make another thread later.

[LitNetIsGreat]

In order to not derail this thread I'll make another thread later.

Well OK if you want, but the thread is about ambition so I don't think it is that much off topic.

[Emil Miller]

Several times throughout my working life, I was asked to apply for higher grades because I was told that I was wasted in the grade I occupied.
I refused each time the subject was broached and at one point a senior member said: "But surely you have some ambition."
My answer was that I was content at my present level. What I didn't say was that I did have ambition but it had nothing to do with work. It was to learn languages, to travel, to read widely and play music etc. Like Neely says, there's work and there's what you really want to do and I didn't want to take on the responsibility that meant I would have to undertake work that would have interfered with my interests. When Guy de Maupassant finished his studies, he managed through connections to get a post in The French Ministry for Marine in which he had no interest at all but it was a sinecure that enabled him to spend much of his day writing. He might have taken more interest and gone on to become a senior French government official, now completely forgotten, instead of someone whose grave still has flowers placed on it today in memory of a great writer. I'm not making comparisons of course, but at least I have had the chance to do more of what I wanted to do than would otherwise have been the case.

[Charles Darnay]

I agree with the distinction between work and "personal" ambition. However, as I am in the position of out of school and just entering into the work-force, a terribly overcrowded place in which I am pitted against old ladies, my ambition right now is to get work. I assume once I have steady work my ambition will be to focus on things beyond work. But ambition is important in general, because it is an awful feeling waking up and thinking, "there is really no reason for me to get up right now."

[JuniperWoolf]

But ambition is not about being mediocre, about waking up at 6:30 working 10 hours and making money for another man. Ambition is not to die just another namless mediocrity. It is about becoming the guy who moves millions if not billons, the man who has power and influence, the great man; not the namless mediocrity.

A bit dramatic, but I agree.

Work is just something that I have to endure until I get to the point where they'll pay me to achieve my ambitions. I can't "settle" for a living, I have to keep moving up. It seems dismissive to say that my feelings are only because I'm young, but at the same time I can't disprove that notion (although I must say, there are many young people with zero ambition and many older people who are quite driven).

[Scheherazade]

A little short on time at the moment but can a work-ambition not be a personal ambition as well?

I love my job truly and always look for ways of developing myself professionally... Not because I am after more money or a higher position but simply because it matters to me to be good at what I do.

[Emil Miller]

A little short on time at the moment but can a work-ambition not be a personal ambition as well?

I love my job truly and always look for ways of developing myself professionally... Not because I am after more money or a higher position but simply because it matters to me to be good at what I do.

Well I suppose it can, I had one job that I actually liked and, as with yourself, I enjoyed doing it to the best of my ability. I was very interested in the work and had complete authority over its execution but I never let it impinge on my non working life which was more important to me.

[Paulclem]

I'm in the very fortunate position of enjoying my job, but it won't provide me with opportunities to satisfy ambition. I am ambitious in the sense that I want to be better pay, conditions and status - but think it'll have to come via another route.

[Henry Please]

From Raymond Carver's "On Writing." In my opinion the best short essay on the subject.

"Ambition and a little luck are good things for a writer to have going for him. Too much ambition and bad luck, or no luck at all, can be killing. There has to be talent."

[LitNetIsGreat]

A little short on time at the moment but can a work-ambition not be a personal ambition as well?

I love my job truly and always look for ways of developing myself professionally... Not because I am after more money or a higher position but simply because it matters to me to be good at what I do.

I suppose it can be to some degree, but it I think it is wise to keep a healthy separation between them all the same, less you become one of those work obsessed individuals.

The thing that I can't understand is that even if you love your job there has to be moments when you would rather be doing something else. How does the job sit then, ambition or not?

What I love most about the weekends/holidays is the opportunity to get up a little later and sit with a nice cup of coffee or tea for a while, maybe switch on my laptop or open a book? What a civilized start to the morning this is.

Or maybe I fancy taking advantage of a spot of fair weather and want to go for a ride or a walk in the Peaks. Or I fancy a bite to eat and a drink in a nice pub somewhere so I phone my brother/friends and off I go. In other words I like the flexibility to follow what I fancy. This is why I personally will never enjoy work. For me this is quite impossible regardless of what it is. Of course the reality is that I have to make the best of it and this is what I do, but it can never be ideal and Chirst if I won the lottery I would not be there!



I'm in the very fortunate position of enjoying my job, but it won't provide me with opportunities to satisfy ambition. I am ambitious in the sense that I want to be better pay, conditions and status - but think it'll have to come via another route.

Status seeking can take people down dark pathways, be careful what you wish for! I'm sure you'll be fine however. Seriously though, I'm sure we have all at sometime seen decent people turn into power hungry Hitlers. Strange how made up job titles and fake leather filofaxes can corrupt people so.

I once had a job where I had to sit inside for 9 hours a day at a desk bending wire. The fancy job title for this one was orthodonic technician. In summer I would sit there and look through the window totally depressed, completely crushed and under no delusion that I was completely wasting my life and letting my brief summers pass my by. The job before that I will never talk about again because it is too painful. Anyway, I would look around and wonder if I was the only one thinking these thoughts and it seemed I was. Don't get me wrong there were some nice people there, some lovely people, but everyone it seemed were obsessed with their own little work ambitions or with pleasing the boss, making the most bonus, bragging, playing the status game etc, etc - all of it was quite sickening but normal, a totally normal working environment, horrible.

I like Ricky Gervais but I could never sit through a full episode of The Office because it is just too horrendously real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9LLZJFBWdc

Edit: free advice for the smart young ones on here for what it's worth - (arrgghhh what did I say about advice the other day?) anyway, get in, make as much money as possible, and get out, fast.

[KCurtis]

Where I'm from, a person has the option to work on a rig for eighty straight days, 14 hours per shift. It's psychotic. The work is hard and the weather is brutal. There are rigs all throughout Northern Alberta and we're the only town within 400 square kms in this area, so rig guys sleep here when they aren't sleeping in the camps. They look like complete hell and they're very lonely, the chances of them getting hurt are very high, but MAN do they get paid well. They go home for two weeks, then they're back at it for another eighty days. Now that is financial ambition.

I have a lot of respect for people who do this. Your description of northern Alberta sounds quite cold. My family is mostly from Ontario and Quebec. A beautiful country, Canada.
I wish I had had more ambition when I was younger- but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I moved to a small peninsula when I was 20, where it is hard to be ambitious, and young people have to move in order to make decent money or get a good education. The ones who don't mostly have menial jobs. It's easier to be ambitious when you know what you want.

[kiki1982]

My only ambition (if that is one) is to be respected for what I do, oh and have enough money in my pocket to enjoy my life. I don't need status, I don't need fame, I don't need a car even, I just want to be thanked for my work and not be slagged off if I happen to be five minutes late or because I did not do what I had to do the right way.

The profession of housewife (where my biggest ambition was to get the house clean in half a day :D) suited me fine. There was always time for fun on the days hubby was off, which was half of the week. Bliss :). Sadly, overall workload does not permit us to continue.

Now we need to be there for when work comes in.
Soon there is going to come at least one smartphone so we can at least put a step outside without foregoing a job by not replying, but still the stress remains.

So now, to boost my willpower, I work with targets. This year my target is to put a wood stove so we can save on oil expenses. The whole thing is going to cost 5,000 EUR, so that's my (first) target. Then it is to get a cleaner. Then to get a new bathroom and then a new kitchen.

Guess what I would be doing if I won the lottery.

I have also been asked 'where would you want to be in five years?' in interviews. I always replied that I did not have a crystal ball and that consequently I would not like to dwell on the future as I would probably get too disappointed... That always got a very surprised look, but no reply.

For me, the energy I put into something must always be worth the result I would be likely to achieve. As such, not many jobs are worth putting your energy into.

That's pessimistic, isn't it?

[Lokasenna]

Ambitions change, I suppose. All throughout my teens, I was determined to be a political animal - it was my ambition to make a Cabinet post by thirty, and Prime Minister/Party Leader by thirty-five. While at University, I became Chairman of my party's local association, and oversaw the largest branch of my party's youth wing in the country. Unfortunately, this also introduced me to a lot of other aspiring student politicians who were running the youth organisations, and time and experience brought me to the conclusion, regardless of party, that they were all a bunch of cloth-eared, incompetent, unintelligent, title-chasing egomaniacs who should be kept as far away from power as humanly possible. Sustained contact with such people really served to dampen my political ardour.

I still have ambitions in that direction, but I'll go into politics in my 40s or 50s - where I will sit happily on the backbenches, voicing criticism or praise where necessary. For now, I want an academic career more than anything else, and that is what I am working towards (though becoming a best-selling novelist would be utterly wonderful too!).

[JuniperWoolf]

I still have ambitions in that direction, but I'll go into politics in my 40s or 50s - where I will sit happily on the backbenches, voicing criticism or praise where necessary. For now, I want an academic career more than anything else, and that is what I am working towards.

Heeeey, no kidding! Those are exactly the same as my ambitions! Step one: earn a place in the scientific community. Step two: become the Canadian equivalent of a backbencher.

Also, your description of the other kids trying to get into government was depressing and frightening.

[Emil Miller]

While at University, I became Chairman of my party's local association, and oversaw the largest branch of my party's youth wing in the country. Unfortunately, this also introduced me to a lot of other aspiring student politicians who were running the youth organisations, and time and experience brought me to the conclusion, regardless of party, that they were all a bunch of cloth-eared, incompetent, unintelligent, title-chasing egomaniacs who should be kept as far away from power as humanly possible.

This reminds me of someone who was chairman of his local Young Conservatives branch and was quite simply an idiot. He left to take up a job in the City which he said would earn him big bucks while we were still earning small bucks in the laboratory. Some time after he left, one of his erstwhile colleagues went into a public house and saw him working behind the bar. If that is typical of the Young Conservatives, God knows what the Young Socialists are like.

[QUOTE=Neely;1106355]What I love most about the weekends/holidays is the opportunity to get up a little later and sit with a nice cup of coffee or tea for a while, maybe switch on my laptop or open a book? What a civilized start to the morning this is. QUOTE]

Let me confirm that it is indeed a civilised start to the morning.

[Alexander III]

A little short on time at the moment but can a work-ambition not be a personal ambition as well?

I love my job truly and always look for ways of developing myself professionally... Not because I am after more money or a higher position but simply because it matters to me to be good at what I do.

I think this is more honor than ambition. But equally good.


Neely and Emil's comments on this page remind me of a few friends of mine from highschool. Once they finished they realized "I don't want to work or study." So they all borrowed some money from their parents on the pretext of investment, and they spend said money drinking partying enjoying the leisured and idle good life. When they run out of money they go back to their parents and ask more. Ofcourse their parents will give it to them, afterall you cant abandon your children, and money is not so much a problem. And that is how they intend to life their lives, traveling around, partying, enjoying all with their parents money and never having to work a day in their lives. These are my friends and remain my friends but in my eyes they are a bit lesser. Naturaly these guys are the most obstinate proclamators of ambition as a sin, that ambition is only for ego-maniacs and people obssesed with money. They rail against ambition with the same oratorial perfection of Lennin against the bourgoise.

I am not saying you guys are like my friends, but they way you talk on this thread is identical to them.

[Scheherazade]

I suppose it can be to some degree, but it I think it is wise to keep a healthy separation between them all the same, less you become one of those work obsessed individuals. As opposed to being a "pleasure-obsessed" individual? A hedonist so to speak?

:D


I think this is more honor than ambition. But equally good.Care to elaborate?

I find ambitions useful both in my work or personal life. They give me a purpose. I find I read more regularly if there is a list I am following, for example.

[Emil Miller]

What I love most about the weekends/holidays is the opportunity to get up a little later and sit with a nice cup of coffee or tea for a while, maybe switch on my laptop or open a book? What a civilized start to the morning this is.

Or maybe I fancy taking advantage of a spot of fair weather and want to go for a ride or a walk in the Peaks. Or I fancy a bite to eat and a drink in a nice pub somewhere so I phone my brother/friends and off I go. In other words I like the flexibility to follow what I fancy. This is why I personally will never enjoy work. For me this is quite impossible regardless of what it is.

Wow Neely, you hedonistic swine, aren't you going to have some caviar with your coffee or tea? And drinking and eating in a pub rather than partaking of a sandwich at your workplace is the kind of thing that starts revolutions. Can there ever have been such self-indulgence? You will be buying a football team next.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Wow Neely, you hedonistic swine, aren't you going to have some caviar with you coffee or tea? And drinking and eating in a pub rather than partaking of a sandwich at your workplace is the kind of thing that starts revolutions. Can there ever have been such self-indulgence? You will be buying a football team next.

Ha, ha yes, I was going to say that I'm no raving hedonist! Rather I call it a common sense approach to life.

Someone told me a story the other day about a couple who ran a business together. They were in two minds whether to sell up at 55 and spend the rest of their lives enjoying the money, particularly going cruising as the wife had always wanted to go cruising. Instead they decided to carry on making more money even though they had plenty to live on to be more than comfortable. They decided to work until 65 and then to pack it in. The wife had a heart attack and died at 63. Life is too short.

[Emil Miller]

I[QUOTE=Neely;1106577]Ha, ha yes, I was going to say that I'm no raving hedonist! Rather I call it a common sense approach to life.

Someone told me a story the other day about a couple who ran a business together. They were in two minds whether to sell up at 55 and spend the rest of their lives enjoying the money, particularly going cruising as the wife had always wanted to go cruising. Instead they decided to carry on making more money even though they had plenty to live on to be more than comfortable. They decided to work until 65 and then to pack it in. The wife had a heart attack and died age 63. Life is too short.

You are absolutely right. There was, until recently, a garden centre very close to where I live and the husband and wife who owned it worked hard even though they were getting on. I bought a number of things from them and one day I was discussing with the woman the overall economic situation and how it was affecting business. Shortly afterwards, she contracted motor neurone disease and the business was sold. Recently I read that the man had murdered his wife in a mercy killing and I just felt sick. If they had sold up earlier and gone to live in France which was a favourite holiday location of theirs, they could at least have had some free time together.

[Paulclem]

Ambitions change, I suppose. All throughout my teens, I was determined to be a political animal - it was my ambition to make a Cabinet post by thirty, and Prime Minister/Party Leader by thirty-five. While at University, I became Chairman of my party's local association, and oversaw the largest branch of my party's youth wing in the country. Unfortunately, this also introduced me to a lot of other aspiring student politicians who were running the youth organisations, and time and experience brought me to the conclusion, regardless of party, that they were all a bunch of cloth-eared, incompetent, unintelligent, title-chasing egomaniacs who should be kept as far away from power as humanly possible. Sustained contact with such people really served to dampen my political ardour.



I was once involved in the teaching union - NUT - but I didn't like what I saw, and the people it attracted. It all seemed to deviate away from what was good for ordinary teachers like myself, and the kids. I'm certainly no conservative, but I got the impression that I wouldn't like the politics of any party.



Or maybe I fancy taking advantage of a spot of fair weather and want to go for a ride or a walk in the Peaks. Or I fancy a bite to eat and a drink in a nice pub somewhere so I phone my brother/friends and off I go. In other words I like the flexibility to follow what I fancy. This is why I personally will never enjoy work. For me this is quite impossible regardless of what it is. Of course the reality is that I have to make the best of it and this is what I do, but it can never be ideal and Chirst if I won the lottery I would not be there!



Status seeking can take people down dark pathways, be careful what you wish for! I'm sure you'll be fine however. Seriously though, I'm sure we have all at sometime seen decent people turn into power hungry Hitlers. Strange how made up job titles and fake leather filofaxes can corrupt people so.
.

It sounds as though you want to retire!

My Dad effectively retired 25 years early. Myself and all my siblings have always worked and had a strong work ethic as a result of this. Poverty was what he brought on the family.

I know what you mean about status - the back biting and struggle for ascendancy in a firm or organisation. I mean I'd like to generate my own status - my job won't make me wealthy, but perhaps a hobby or interest might. I'd like to be good at something.

[LitNetIsGreat]

It sounds as though you want to retire!

My Dad effectively retired 25 years early. Myself and all my siblings have always worked and had a strong work ethic as a result of this. Poverty was what he brought on the family.

I know what you mean about status - the back biting and struggle for ascendancy in a firm or organisation. I mean I'd like to generate my own status - my job won't make me wealthy, but perhaps a hobby or interest might. I'd like to be good at something.

Oh yes please I'd love to retire, though the reality is far from that of course. The phrase 'part-time' also brings sweet music to my ears...

It would be good to have a hobby or interest generate some income. I mean that is ideal really. The problem is that's often difficult to do, unless your hobby is selling car insurance or mobile phones something horrible like that. It's not impossible though I imagine. Good luck.

[KCurtis]

After reading all of this on ambition, it makes me think that people should do more of what they want to do.
I plan to retire in eight years, at 62. I also plan to work part time. I work in a school, so I work a total of 183 days per year. As an assistant, I don't make much money, I took the job because we had a disabled son to raise. My husband, I hope, retires at age 62 or 64, if he can. He wishes he had a science degree, he is more knowledgable than many in that area, it's his serious hobby, (self taught mostly) but he never did that. He works hard, he likes his work but wishes he was in a science field. He only gets two weeks vacation a year.
We don't want to spend more years than we have to working like this, we live very simply so that later we can do what we want- we have no debt. What we have learned is this;
Think hard about what you want to be when you are young enough! I hope that didn't come across as preachy, it was not my intent.

[Emil Miller]

Think hard about what you want to be when you are young enough! I hope that didn't come across as preachy, it was not my intent.

This is good advice but easier said than done because many of us simply don't know what we want to do work wise. I had no idea what to do and consequently drifted in and out of jobs until I found work in a laboratory.
I don't think my case is unusual because the truth is that I didn't want to work at all. After some years, the company I worked for moved away from London and I opted not to go with them. At which point, I landed the best job I ever had and for the first time discovered that there is a such a thing as work that could be fulfilling and financially rewarding. For reasons that I won't bore you with here, I resigned after a couple of years and subsequently moved around various government offices until I took early retirement. As you can see, working life can be pretty haphazard unless you have a predilection for something: such as one of my school friends, for example, who had a burning ambition to join the Royal Air Force.

[KCurtis]

I have met very few people who knew what they wanted to do when young. In my family, nobody seems to go to College, which is a mistake, I think. I went later in life, but it is better to go when you don't have family obligations. Even if you don't know what you want to do, and have at least a bachelors degree, you are one step ahead. Then later on people decide on what masters they want to go for. But to not go to college or a trade school I think is the biggest mistake people make.

[JuniperWoolf]

My family is all hunters and/or coal miners. The only other "academic" from my family is my uncle Shawn, he has four degrees but they're all in trades so it's different from me. He makes six figures a year doing something manly and technical in Hannah.


This is good advice but easier said than done because many of us simply don't know what we want to do work wise. I had no idea what to do and consequently drifted in and out of jobs until I found work in a laboratory.

What kind of laboratory?

[LitNetIsGreat]

He makes six figures a year doing something manly and technical in Hannah.

Is this Hannah good looking?

[KCurtis]

My family is all hunters and/or coal miners. The only other "academic" from my family is my uncle Shawn, he has four degrees but they're all in trades so it's different from me. He makes six figures a year doing something manly and technical in Hannah.


So then you are one who really wanted something different. That's impressive. I blame my family's lack of ambition on never getting off this peninsula we live on. It is a beautiful one though.


Is this Hannah good looking?

:lol::lol:

[JuniperWoolf]

Is this Hannah good looking?

Haha, she is if you get turned on by this:
http://www.roadsideattractions.ca/hgoose.jpg