Untitled (was "Skye's Shirt)

[kangels4ever]

Removed due to massive re-write issues.

[hillwalker]

10 out of 10 for perseverance. You must be a glutton for punishment. I admire your decision to give it another shot and I hope my comments won't make you give up.

I’ll begin with the nuts and bolts : a tiny grammatical detail in one paragraph (the 7th from the end) where you repeat the phrase ‘at that instant’ (an oversight I’m sure).
You might also consider changing the fourth word in paragraph 1 (the opening sentence) from ‘the’ to ‘one’ – focussing a little less on the month’s meteorological history…

As for the bones of the story – I recall you were looking to experiment with romantic writing. One presumes therefore that you are hoping this tale will appeal to women readers (as well as men – I’m not being sexist here, honestly).
So does it work?

Well, it doesn’t start particularly well, any author referring to other men as ‘dudes’ suggests a certain ‘type’ of narrator – some guy so full of himself he’s got a chip on each shoulder and an inflated ego to match. Are women readers going to empathise with him? Hardly. And dialogue like ‘Thanks man’ adds to the assumption that he’s a dick. Perhaps it’s me, but do people talk that way still? It seems so artificially hip.

Then you introduce Skye – and immediately you’ve stuck her on a pedestal. She’s drawn as a target rather than a person doing a job and interacting with the ‘hero’. It’s a little predatory. I know there are things like sexual chemistry and instant attraction but you don’t even allude to that. It just happens because she’s so cute - one can almost hear the accompanying music; slushy violins, harps and an angelic chorus.

The corny chit-chat isn’t so bad – some of it was quite amusing - but there’s rather an abrupt leap to him noticing her pendant. One is tempted to post a ‘Creep Alert’ at this point in the story. It’s like he’s spinning a line rather than making genuine conversation. Perhaps that was the intention – portray Mike as a guy on the make - but if so he’s not going to appeal to your target audience.

And of course, the first meeting at the Caribou Café – ‘all Mr. Relaxed after I’d made eye contact with her and walked over. Perhaps we should replace ‘Creep Alert’ with ‘Stalker Alert’. Can you not see how stage-managed the whole incident seems – he’s homing in on her rather than just going across to say ‘Hello’. And the fact that he picks up the conversation at the exact same point that they parted some time previous suggests he’s been replaying it over in his mind the whole time. It’s definitely not romantic.

You then skip the 'difficult' bits of getting to know someone better because things quickly ‘evolved into genuine friendship’. We have no proof of this other than the narrator’s word – and the conversation that soon follows is again a little disconcerting.

‘“He’s being sadistic about sex.” She finally whispered’.

Well, I’ve had some pretty frank discussions with female friends (young and not so young) about relationships and sexual matters but I can’t remember anyone sharing such a confidence as the one Skye decides to share. This is the kind of conversation girls have with each other rather than with guys unless the guy is their partner. I have a 25 year-old friend who is good enough to test-read a lot of my stuff and I can promise you if I wrote something along these lines she’d soon set me straight.
It is so easy to develop a blind spot when you’re writing something you believe you need to say. But this plot development isn’t remotely romance – it’s leaning towards soft-porn - yet you keep everything so low key that it’s neither one nor the other. Women are going to feel their skin crawl at this point in the story, and men who enjoy the raunchier stuff are going to feel short-changed by the time they reach the end.

One senses this guy is grooming the poor girl rather than trying to develop a meaningful relationship with her. You’re portraying Skye as a stereotypical, helpless victim who needs an older man to save her.
And here’s a question for you. How on earth has Mike become aware of the details of his parents’ sexual behaviour or preferences? It’s a major flaw in the plot from where I’m sitting.

“But I’m scared, Mick.” She whispered, another tear coursing down her cheek. “What if he comes and tries to rape me or something?”
“If he does, he will get his *** kicked because I’ll be there. Now call.”

Ooh err…
This sort of macho posturing just makes the entire situation increasingly unrealistic.
And, of course, the implied climax - where ‘she came into my arms and we swapped words for deeper forms of expression, expressed and expressed them until we fell asleep’ – everything happens rather suddenly does it not? More Rambo than romance.

Here’s a serious suggestion – try rewriting this from Skye’s pov. Put yourself in her shoes and let her tell us what really happened. If they still end up together at least it won’t be because it fitted some male writer’s fantasy:willy_nilly:

Good luck,

H

[Varenne Rodin]

I agree with Hillwalker.

The sexual stuff about the parents was completely inappropriate, even for the closest of friends. That's not something that should be fixated on in fiction or in reality. It would be something for your male character to address in therapy and then let go of before seeking to date women. It's not believable that the female friend would have a similar story that she would blurt out in a coffee shop. Again, something she should either discuss in therapy, or something she should address privately with her boyfriend. It's not provocative or romantic, it's just gross and not necessary to talk about. What kind of person tells someone about a boyfriend's sick fantasies? Or an ex boyfriend's? Or a parent's? That isn't healthy. Maybe your character should let go of unusual fixations and get healthy before pursuing women.

You should either write a different story from a woman's point of view, or you should write about a male character living alone and struggling to come to grips with an abusive past.

[kangels4ever]

Hillwalker:

Could you please relax, sarge? Why does everything I write creep you out, man? Why oh why must you slam my stuff with the likes of "One is tempted to post a ‘Creep Alert’ at this point in the story." or "Perhaps we should replace ‘Creep Alert’ with ‘Stalker Alert’." You mean to tell me that a male lead in a story should be meek as a mouse and not say one darn word to a girl of he is single?

I took inspiration for how tough Mick is with Skye towards the end from a passage in a Clive Cussler novel entitled "The Mediterranean Caper" where his hero Dirk Pitt meets a pretty girl one morning (on a beach no less) and within an hour has gotten tough with her about her tragic past, made her seen the light ... and they are lovers. If you want to slam my more subtle version you'll have to bash Clive's, too.

Mick talks like I do. I'm relaxed and say things like "hey" and "man" alot. Also, yesterday I was with my brother at a car dealership and I wished I could have asked the girl at the desk where I paid for an oil change on our cars if the pendant she had was Black Hills Gold or not because I was out in the Black Hills late last year, but didn't think to as I politely chatted in between the blah of paperwork and all that kind of jazz.

Also, I'm 31, and Skye is meant to be, say, 27. Mick is 31 in this story: if that makes him "an older man" I'd hate to see what you define a dude who is 21 as! :-)

Genre?

I realized after this second draft that it has moved from romance into something that falls into the "general" category.


Varenne:

I am an honest person, and Mick is meant to be an honest person only three years older than Skye. I've told quite a few women (without gory details yet because I don't know them that well yet) about what a jerk my father was and they always are sympathetic.

I don't know about you, but a sane woman does not like a creep.

I also wrote this because I got ticked off long ago when some singles columnist did indeed claim that no man could get a woman away from her mean boyfriend. "Oh yeah?" I thought after reading that little gem. Hence this hypothetical scenario done in part off of some life experiences taking a gamble with fiction on the rest.

Also, Mick has come to terms with his past. Which is why he wants to save Skye from a similar fate. That part is intensely autobiographical: my father pulled the exact same kind of crud amongst many other crimes he deserves to burn in a hot place for.

Judging by your feedback, Varenne, you sound like you've never known a man who was a jerk or had any female friends who knew men who were jerks, too.

That said, thanks for the feedback. :-)

[Varenne Rodin]

I've known men and women who were jerks and also creeps. Nothing about them was "romantic". Sorry. It wasn't enjoyable to this reader. Maybe it would be to the jerks you speak of, but we haven't heard from them yet. I do hope you'll get some positive feedback, but this really isn't my cup of tea. I like honest works, sure. I like and write horror stories too. Full of cussing and colorful language. You just happened to choose language that makes skin crawl. If you were writing about a creepy pervert, it would work.

There's a fine line between being honest with people and volunteering disgusting stories about other people. I've known people who were abused in atrocious ways. I wouldn't share the gross details of their lives with anyone. To me, that would be an abandonment of integrity, and a debasement of myself. There are some things that simply are not pleasant and not involved in healthy "romances". If you want to write about them, cool, but calling them beautiful and innocent and sweet? That's quite a stretch.

Hillwalker's comments were on the mark. If you present stories like this, continue to expect criticism, or at least label them as deviant perversion fantasies. "Romance" is the wrong genre.

[Charles Darnay]

I think Mick is a fine narrator/character. I personally don't see a problem with his diction (aside from the odd part where it seems too forced), and the piece does not seem overly sadistic (now what does that say about me?)

My problem with the story is Skye. She isn't real. It seems too much like Mich (or you, however you want to blur the lines) have created her to suit your imagination - she speaks how a guy would imagine her speaking.

To me, the whole thing comes across as Mick's "fantasy" - which is interesting if it is what you are going for, but I don't think it is.

[hillwalker]

Stand at ease, dude...

I'm nit-picking because I care about what you are attempting to do. I judged this story on the basis that you were trying to write a romance - hence the 'creep alert' because the story certainly isn't a romance. And to be honest, basing characters on a Clive Cussler hero isn't going to win any awards for realism. He writes escapist adventures where the main protagonists are cartoon characters - great fun but not the kind of guy you'd meet in the real world.

The dialogue and perspective of the main character are very much male orientated - no woman reader is going to be won over by the story or the artificial interaction of Mick and Skye as you present it. Which is fine if you admit you're catering for a different readership.

And I'm not suggesting every male lead should be a wimp - far from it. Also there are instances where it's possible to save a girl from an abusive relationship and win her heart. I've been there - done that. Got the t-shirt and mug to prove it. I'm just pointing out that in this story at times Mick acts like a creep. And since you wrote the story it's your fault, no one else's.

Most guys in his situation would play it a lot cooler. Homing in on her in the cafe and continuing some long-forgotten conversation suggests he has been waiting all this time to snag her. He's been replaying the conversation inside his head, practicing what line to say when the opportunity arises. In other words, fantasizing about her with a view to developing the relationship that in all reality doesn't even exist.

Ok, we have all done the same to a certain extent when we get close to someone we don't yet know well enough - acting out various scenarios inside our heads. But the way Mick approaches her - the body language you describe - put me in mind of a shark tasting blood in the water and going in for the kill. The guy isn't subtle. And one feels he's not really interested in Skye as a person - just as a desirable object.

Again, if you're not aiming for romantic fiction that's fine. The guy can be a complete predator who knows how to prey on vulnerable women, providing them with a shoulder to cry on before moving in for the clinch. But don't expect the likes of Varenne to applaud your story-telling skills. It's not a case of Prince Charming and some damsel in distress, it's much more sinister than that but you don't seem to see that.

I'd still like you to consider approaching this story from the woman's pov. There are many men who write succcessful romantic literature using a female pen name - and most of their readers are none the wiser. At least it would make you reconsider some of the plot - would Skye really tell Mick everything about Lyle or would she suggest things weren't working out and leave it at that? Would she really allow him to speak to Lyle on her phone?? To threaten him when she might be made to suffer the consequences??? Is there anything in her make-up that explains why she's confiding so much to Mick in the first place? And would she jump into bed with him hours after ending an abusive relationship having heard this guy threaten to kick Lyle's a$$? On Planet Cussler presumably so. But in the real world...

H

[kangels4ever]

Hill:

So what if this was meant to be on "Planet Cussler", dude, but in a more subtle way?

I'll grant this needs tweaking, but as a man, I am the first one to admit I can't get into a woman's mind.

Nevertheless, at heart I do believe I based her off of my mom, the one woman any sane child truly knows by the time they're 31. I just need to make Skye a bit better as a character. There's the gripe.

Thanks for your patience, everybody. :-)

[kangels4ever]

(aside from the odd part where it seems too forced)

Could you point that part out to me? Thanks.

[hillwalker]

I'm guessing it's up to Charles to answer this. But I found the telephone conversation over the top. Not just the dialogue but the entire premise that some stranger gets to warn off another guy because this other guy's girlfriend doesn't enjoy certain aspects of their physical relationship.

H

[Charles Darnay]

I'm guessing it's up to Charles to answer this. But I found the telephone conversation over the top. Not just the dialogue but the entire premise that some stranger gets to warn off another guy because this other guy's girlfriend doesn't enjoy certain aspects of their physical relationship.

H

Yeah, I could agree with that.

The part I was thinking about was:
__________________________________________________ _____
A few weeks later I did see her, at the Caribou Coffee nestled along Lake Street in downtown Wayzata.

“Hey, here I am,” I said, all Mr. Relaxed after I’d made eye contact with her and walked over. “Ready to hear why I said what I did about young folks in the Black Hills?”

“Yeah, go ahead,” she said as she took a sip of her coffee.

“Because the time I went out there last year with my mom and brother we kept running into old folks tour after old folks tour. It played hell with my social plans for the trip, I swear.”

She laughed. “Not that you could be a social butterfly staying in one room,” she joked.

I shook my head, Mr. Mock Serious now. “Thou shalt never assume. I had my own room on the trip.”

“Oh.”

I smiled, offered her my hand. “My name’s Mick. And you are …?”

She smiled as she took my hand in hers. “I’m Skye.”
__________________________________________________ ___________

This section seemed unnatural in both the narration and dialogue.

[Varenne Rodin]

If he was all "Mr. Relaxed" it wouldn't need to be said. It seems like everything he says and does is calculated.

[kangels4ever]

This story is now down because of massive re-write issues your constructive feedback revealed. Thanks. :-)

[Charles Darnay]

Best of luck

[hillwalker]

You know you’re onto something when your readers can’t get the latest piece you’ve written out of their heads. I woke up in the middle of the night and realised your story was still there rattling around inside my skull!

It’s good news that you’re considering a rewrite. You might like to consider these points while you’re redrafting –

1) If this statement is true
I am the first one to admit I can't get into a woman's mind.
what are you doing trying to write about a relationship between a man and a woman (especially as this started as an attempt at romance)?

2)Telling us I based her off of my mom, the one woman any sane child truly knows by the time they're 31. is entering Norman Bates (‘Psycho’) territory. One of the creepiest lines ever spoken in a movie by a grown man was ‘A boy’s best friend is his mother’.
You do need to try and remove any personal agenda from this story otherwise it’s in danger of becoming a private campaign rather than a credible piece of fiction. Using the fact that your parents suffered an abusive relationship as raw material for a story is perfectly acceptable – but vicariously trying to put things right through a made-up story just won’t work. You’re manipulating your characters in such a way that their behaviour is controlled rather than natural.

3) Basing your characters’ behaviour on something you read in a Clive Cussler novel doesn’t help matters either – it’s like trying to cook a 15-course Chinese banquet using just a takeaway flier as the recipe. I assume you realise that Dirk Pitt isn’t a real man – he doesn’t behave like a real person, and Cussler’s portrayal of women is equally wide of the mark. His women are there to make the men look good – nothing more. So I’d question anyone attempting to write realistic contemporary fiction using the Cussler template. His stuff is enjoyable escapist literature – but his characters are as shallow as puddles in the Mojave.

4) You admit the main gripe is Skye’s character. Others on here have commented that the plot development where she confides certain intimate details to Mick and his rescue bid is not realistic. Well trust me, they're right.
You’ve deleted the original story – but I can’t recall any point in their conversation where Mick declared an interest in Skye as a person. Every comment or conversational thread was a chat-up line or was intended to make Mick look super-cool. No attempt was to made to explore the female lead. You were using Skye to advance Mick’s campaign to win her heart rather than giving her breathing space to also grow as a character.
There's even a line I seem to recall where Skye says she doesn't enjoy being 'stinky'. Regardless of her sexual preferences this makes her sound more like a seven-year-old kid than a grown woman. Little wonder that Mike's paternal concern sets the alarm bells ringing.

As far as the climactic scene in the café goes, there is no way any woman would allow her boyfriend to be attacked the way Mick attacked Lyle on her mobile phone. Trust me. She’d crawl away with her tail between her legs and do the dumping in private – when she felt ready.
Lyle is a bully, but Mick’s behaviour is just as intimidating. I seem to remember him saying ‘Give me the phone. Now.’ He’s not being supportive or caring here – he’s being as much of a control freak as her ex. Can’t you see that?

5) Finally, the denouement is a perfect example of a distorted male fantasy. You are confusing gratitude with sexual attraction or true lurrrv. Skye might feel grateful to Mick for intervening in her abusive relationship, but there’s no way she would then immediately jump into bed with him as a way of saying ‘Thanks’.
If Mick had any real feelings for her as a person he would be happy for her that she was free of Lyle and leave it there. Perhaps sometime in the future they might rekindle their friendship - and indeed it might develop into a mutual physical relationship. But in this instance you’ve got the maths badly wrong. You’re fulfilling Mick’s wishes, nothing more. It’s all about Mick from the moment the story begins and quite frankly, however you dress it up in trying to be more subtle than Cussler, he still behaves like a macho creep.

I do sincerely wish you all the best with this little problem you’ve set yourself. You know we’re always here to help out (like vultures circling over your head???).

H

[kangels4ever]

I hate Norman Bates, Hill, and wish he had wound up on Dexter Morgan's table.

I don't consider mom my "best friend", she's just ... mom. And there are times my mom drives me so nuts I give her back talk! :-) No fanciful "Mary Poppins" bull here ...

But why on earth can't my story about Skye ultimately be "escapist" fiction? There's no law against posting such stuff here.

Now historical fiction, on the other hand, is not "escapist" to me, btw. It's a time warp! :-)

[Charles Darnay]

The problem is that you do not set it up as escapist and you seem to want us to believe that Skye is a real person. The only way I see to make that "natural" is to frame the story within Mick's mind, having him wonder what would happen if he asked that girl out. But this is a very unimaginative way of going about it.

You won't find too much support here for a story more suited for guys sitting around, drinking, smoking and talking about conquests.

[Jack of Hearts]

This reader emphatically disagrees. The way it was written before, it couldn't have been anything but escapist fiction.

Eventually, in our writing, we run into the edges of ourselves and are constrained- sometimes by our worldviews, sometimes by the way we'd like the world to be. For this story, at least the version this reader read, the latter seems to come into play.








- Jack Push Cart

[Varenne Rodin]

Single guys who are unlucky with women might sympathize with these fantasies. I don't want to burst any bubbles, but attractive women don't behave the way Skye does, so attractive women will not enjoy this story.

[Varenne Rodin]

Now if you want to say that Skye is ugly, or weak and vulnerable and/or sexually abused, it could make sense for her to act like a sleazy moron. The kind of guy who preys on a victimized girl is a grosso creep. Just so you know.

[Charles Darnay]

Now if you want to say that Skye is ugly, or weak and vulnerable and/or sexually abused, it could make sense for her to act like a sleazy moron. The kind of guy who preys on a victimized girl is a grosso creep. Just so you know.

I think don't any woman would act like Skye...regardless of looks or even vulnerability.

[Varenne Rodin]

I think don't any woman would act like Skye...regardless of looks or even vulnerability.

I agree with you almost completely. I think a girl would have to have some serious psychological disorders, is what I meant. Even then, unbelievable.