Why The West Craves Materialism & Why The East Sticks To Religion

[mazHur]

THE PAKISTANI CRICKETER IMRAN KHAN ( Currently a vibrant politician of his Country)
Why The West Craves Materialism & Why The East Sticks To Religion
By Imran Khan

'This is not only about Islam but Faith in general

http://www.livingislam.org/o/wcm_e.html


This article by Imran Khan appeared on Arab news; a leading English daily in Saudi Arabia -an eye opener which communicates real feelings of many a true Muslims in these trying times'

How far Imran Khan is right (or wrong)?? Share your thoughts!!:)

[Darcy88]

"Since all morality has it roots in religion, once religion was removed, immorality has progressively grown since the 70s."

"While science always tries to prove the inequality of man (recent survey showing the American Black to be genetically less intelligent than whites) it is only religion that preaches the equality of man."

"Philosophers like Darwin, who with his half-baked theory of evolution had supposedly disproved the creation of men and hence religion, were read and revered."

^ Silliness. Religion promotes the inequality of women, plain and simple. It is your holy Koran which directs men to beat their disobedient wives. The bible speaks about the nonsense of male headship. And calling evolution "half-baked" is deluded in the extreme.

That said, the author seems to get the point of religion. He calls out not merely the godless secular westerners but the zealous religious extremists as well. Faith to him is a quest to better himself. He exemplifies what is good in religion - humility, compassion, focus.

All in all an interesting read. Muslims like him are proof that Islam is not so dark and malignant as it is often erroneously perceived. True Islam is about duty to God and duty to one's fellow man.

[mazHur]

"Since all morality has it roots in religion, once religion was removed, immorality has progressively grown since the 70s."

"While science always tries to prove the inequality of man (recent survey showing the American Black to be genetically less intelligent than whites) it is only religion that preaches the equality of man."

"Philosophers like Darwin, who with his half-baked theory of evolution had supposedly disproved the creation of men and hence religion, were read and revered."

^ Silliness. Religion promotes the inequality of women, plain and simple. It is your holy Koran which directs men to beat their disobedient wives. The bible speaks about the nonsense of male headship. And calling evolution "half-baked" is deluded in the extreme.

That said, the author seems to get the point of religion. He calls out not merely the godless secular westerners but the zealous religious extremists as well. Faith to him is a quest to better himself. He exemplifies what is good in religion - humility, compassion, focus.

All in all an interesting read. Muslims like him are proof that Islam is not so dark and malignant as it is often erroneously perceived. True is Islam is about duty to God and duty to one's fellow man.


Thanks...
Islam is universally acknowledged as a religion of Brotherhood. All are equal in Islam except in matters of learning and piety, says the Quran.

Wife beating is not practiced in Islam though the Quran hints at ''beating''
disobedient and wayward wives. I personally think the word 'beating' (or it may have a different meaning in Arabic??) doesn't mean thrashing...but 'stroking' ...mildly enough not to cause her 'physical distress'.

Imran Khan was wedded to Jemima, a jew or a Christian, and he might have
acquired such knowledge from her, particularly from the OT.
Islam does not preach inequality of women. However, it does emphasize segregation of sexes in public or privacy.


If Bible speaks against male headship it is not necessary for the Quran to tow its line because both religions are different, given their pros and cons.

[Gladys]

If nothing else, traditional religion provides some ethical sensibility to its many adherents - surely a good thing. "Love thy neighbour" is a good start. Does rampant consumer culture and our recent worship of the individual do that? In Australia the loudest voice in support of boat people - desperate refugees from Asia - comes from the churches. Unfortunately, fundamentalist church campaigns to restrict lifestyle choices for all are more problematic.

Religion may work well for individuals but, in politics, religion soon becomes grossly distorted along with everything else. Western governments, flying God's banner, have long intervened in Iraq and Afghanistan, with hoards of English-speaking agents, for imperceptible benefit. Can well-meaning and influential individuals in the East following a Muslim God do worse?

Good luck to you, Imran!

[cacian]

I doubt faith has anything to do with it.
I think with the East it is more deeply engrained,in the blood as they say, where not much thinking goes on.

'This is not only about Islam but Faith in general
This is not quite true because what this is suggesting is that people in the West have less faith then in the East.
Lots of easter men are backward in their thinking and rely on a religion to see them true their frustrated minds hence not much thinking goes one.
Easter men in general are usually extremely insecure and challenged by what Western ideas.
The more the West liberate the more the East closes in.
It is a programm I watched about an Egyptian guy who for the first time went to Europe to study and what he experienced he said was of another dimension.
He was shocked,confused, bewildered,lost and above all angry because he tought there was 'too much' freedom for women for example.
Then when he finished his studies he went back to Egypt and was never the same again.
He became more and more reclused and turned into God , almost a fanatic, hated and repressed and distrusted women around him.
It was a very revealing programm.
This is what happens apparently to lots of easten men apparently when they come to the West.
They come, they see and then they change , radically and for the worse.

[Patrick_Bateman]

The reason materialism is not embraced in Islamic nations is due in large part to the fatalistic nature that is imbued in the people of the east.

[JCamilo]

Materialism is not embraced on east? Sure, South Korea, Japan, Qatar are in which part of the globe?

Albeit, all the western society free commerce is actually born from the liberal notions like Democracy:everyone is free to have all they worked for. It is born more in equality than anything else, but like many things, it goes well while preached, it goes down while put in pratic.

[Patrick_Bateman]

"Since all morality has it roots in religion, once religion was removed, immorality has progressively grown since the 70s."

"While science always tries to prove the inequality of man (recent survey showing the American Black to be genetically less intelligent than whites) it is only religion that preaches the equality of man."

"Philosophers like Darwin, who with his half-baked theory of evolution had supposedly disproved the creation of men and hence religion, were read and revered."

^ Silliness. Religion promotes the inequality of women, plain and simple. It is your holy Koran which directs men to beat their disobedient wives. The bible speaks about the nonsense of male headship. And calling evolution "half-baked" is deluded in the extreme.

That said, the author seems to get the point of religion. He calls out not merely the godless secular westerners but the zealous religious extremists as well. Faith to him is a quest to better himself. He exemplifies what is good in religion - humility, compassion, focus.

All in all an interesting read. Muslims like him are proof that Islam is not so dark and malignant as it is often erroneously perceived. True Islam is about duty to God and duty to one's fellow man.

It's a common misconception that women in the Koran are resigned to a life of abuse and servitude.

Womankind is recognised in the Koran as an equal partner to man in the procreation of life. Her role is as important as his and she enjoys an equal share and equal rights.


O mankind! Verily We have created your from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that you may know each other

Women are acknowledged as independent, and her human nature is not deemed to be inferior to man.


'Never will I cause to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female; you are members, one of another

She is equal to man in the pursuit of education and knowledge. When Islam enjoins the seeking of knowledge upon Muslims, it makes no distinction between man and woman. Almost fourteen centuries ago, Muhammad declared that the pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim male and female.

Historical records show that women participated in public life with the early Muslims, especially in times of emergencies. Women used to accompany the Muslim armies engaged in battles to nurse the wounded, prepare supplies, and so on.

It is also said in the Qur'an and shown in history that women not only expressed their opinion freely but also argued and participated in serious discussions with the Prophet himself as well as with other Muslim leaders (Qur'an, 58:1-4; 60:10-12)


Materialism is not embraced on east? Sure, South Korea, Japan, Qatar are in which part of the globe?

Albeit, all the western society free commerce is actually born from the liberal notions like Democracy:everyone is free to have all they worked for. It is born more in equality than anything else, but like many things, it goes well while preached, it goes down while put in pratic.

Japan and Korea aren't Muslim nations

[JBI]

The number one consumer of luxury goods in the world right now is China. I don't think Dubai for instance is not a materialistic place, nor do I think Saudi Arabia is either. Even women are traded as materials in part of the world designated as East, this is all nonsense, as religion sanctifies it.

[JCamilo]

Japan and Korea aren't Muslim nations


'This is not only about Islam but Faith in general

In the opening thread.

So, East nations. And it is easy to see that the economic model of countries like Saudi Arabia is not "religious" butter rather the "colonial" mindset: i see prime materials to others and I keep the money to me (as the dominant class). If the lower classes or middle classes do not have the power to consume, as the rich class did not used their money to create the conditions (industrial production and social communication devices) for this. It is not because of religion, as those with power, do consume and do it a lot. In those countries, religion (by nature, often traditionalist) is used by the power to be often as the famous "opium of the masses", where they do a very selective option of the religious ethics, but religion itself is not favorable or against the economic system.

It is easy to follow the JBI example: China. They were in theory atheists, but had no consume for while because the communist regime didnt gave this condition. As soon it was created, booom.

[mazHur]

It's a common misconception that women in the Koran are resigned to a life of abuse and servitude.

Womankind is recognised in the Koran as an equal partner to man in the procreation of life. Her role is as important as his and she enjoys an equal share and equal rights.



Women are acknowledged as independent, and her human nature is not deemed to be inferior to man.



She is equal to man in the pursuit of education and knowledge. When Islam enjoins the seeking of knowledge upon Muslims, it makes no distinction between man and woman. Almost fourteen centuries ago, Muhammad declared that the pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim male and female.

Historical records show that women participated in public life with the early Muslims, especially in times of emergencies. Women used to accompany the Muslim armies engaged in battles to nurse the wounded, prepare supplies, and so on.

It is also said in the Qur'an and shown in history that women not only expressed their opinion freely but also argued and participated in serious discussions with the Prophet himself as well as with other Muslim leaders (Qur'an, 58:1-4; 60:10-12)

Wow! You surely know much about Islam!! What you said is true and i endorse it.


The number one consumer of luxury goods in the world right now is China. I don't think Dubai for instance is not a materialistic place, nor do I think Saudi Arabia is either. Even women are traded as materials in part of the world designated as East, this is all nonsense, as religion sanctifies it.

1. Duabi is totally materialistic...i agree. But Saudi Arabia is so to a lesser extent.

2. Wrong. At least islam doesn't sanctify women trade at all; it even doesn't allow trading of Haram (forbidden) animals like snakes, lizards, frogs, etc.
If you find any Muslim doing this he is doing it to satisfy his lust for money....against the tenets of Islam.


The reason materialism is not embraced in Islamic nations is due in large part to the fatalistic nature that is imbued in the people of the east.

That's true...fatalism but some sects of Muslims such as Shia's do not believe in fate! However, most Muslims do.....and because in doing that they give up struggle (Jihad or Ijtehaad) they have ceased to prosper in scientific and economic fields. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be any specific system of governance specified by the Quran. Consequently, different sects of Muslims have their own opinion of the heads of state (such as Calif, Imam, etc) which leads to seriously unending grudges,warfare and bloodshed among themselves. From reading history of the Saracens it appears that Islam prospers best under Tyranny and all the good works accomplished by Muslims until the 12th Century was due to this. Democracy seems to be poison for Muslims who need very harsh and cruel dictators to keep them straight. This is my personal view and I might be wrong.....


I doubt faith has anything to do with it.
I think with the East it is more deeply engrained,in the blood as they say, where not much thinking goes on.

This is not quite true because what this is suggesting is that people in the West have less faith then in the East.
Lots of easter men are backward in their thinking and rely on a religion to see them true their frustrated minds hence not much thinking goes one.
Easter men in general are usually extremely insecure and challenged by what Western ideas.
The more the West liberate the more the East closes in.
It is a programm I watched about an Egyptian guy who for the first time went to Europe to study and what he experienced he said was of another dimension.
He was shocked,confused, bewildered,lost and above all angry because he tought there was 'too much' freedom for women for example.
Then when he finished his studies he went back to Egypt and was never the same again.
He became more and more reclused and turned into God , almost a fanatic, hated and repressed and distrusted women around him.
It was a very revealing programm.
This is what happens apparently to lots of easten men apparently when they come to the West.
They come, they see and then they change , radically and for the worse.

That seems to be an oddity. I have been traveling to the West and East but i didn't feel the same way!
One thing i observed during my stay in the West incl USA that most Asian Muslims wouldn't mix up with the Western culture no matter what....reason being both Eastern and western cultures are quite opposite as far as lifestyle and sex-mingling and food is concerned. I also noticed that even Hindus would also stay aloof of the Western lifestyle, particularly in as much as their women folk were concerned, because of do's and dont's of their religion. Same holds true for Muslims as well but both Hindu men find a way out to
'enjoy' the Western 'offers' but will hardly get assimilated in Western society.
Better check it out and let me know!:)


If nothing else, traditional religion provides some ethical sensibility to its many adherents - surely a good thing. "Love thy neighbour" is a good start. Does rampant consumer culture and our recent worship of the individual do that? In Australia the loudest voice in support of boat people - desperate refugees from Asia - comes from the churches. Unfortunately, fundamentalist church campaigns to restrict lifestyle choices for all are more problematic.

Religion may work well for individuals but, in politics, religion soon becomes grossly distorted along with everything else. Western governments, flying God's banner, have long intervened in Iraq and Afghanistan, with hoards of English-speaking agents, for imperceptible benefit. Can well-meaning and influential individuals in the East following a Muslim God do worse?

Good luck to you, Imran!

Hmm........you have a point there!!:)

[Haunted]

It's a common misconception that women in the Koran are resigned to a life of abuse and servitude.

Womankind is recognised in the Koran as an equal partner to man in the procreation of life. Her role is as important as his and she enjoys an equal share and equal rights.



Women are acknowledged as independent, and her human nature is not deemed to be inferior to man.



She is equal to man in the pursuit of education and knowledge. When Islam enjoins the seeking of knowledge upon Muslims, it makes no distinction between man and woman. Almost fourteen centuries ago, Muhammad declared that the pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim male and female.

Historical records show that women participated in public life with the early Muslims, especially in times of emergencies. Women used to accompany the Muslim armies engaged in battles to nurse the wounded, prepare supplies, and so on.

It is also said in the Qur'an and shown in history that women not only expressed their opinion freely but also argued and participated in serious discussions with the Prophet himself as well as with other Muslim leaders (Qur'an, 58:1-4; 60:10-12)

Then why is it that women in Arabia aren't allowed to drive?

Why do women have to cover their faces?

Why do women in Afghanistan have to wear burkas?

Why are girls/women not allowed to go to school?

Why do women who committed adultery are killed by stoning?


****

Maz, your position is stereotype. The west doesn't crave materialism the way you portrayed us. For example, in the US religion is separate from state, we have the freedom to creativity, and that's our way of life. We can enjoy materialism and practice religion both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

[mazHur]

[QUOTE=Haunted;1103522]Then why is it that women in Arabia aren't allowed to drive?

That is because of their law!


Why do women have to cover their faces?

That is more of a cultural problem.


Why do women in Afghanistan have to wear burkas?

Again that is a cultural problem. Burqa is not prescribed by Islam...A woman can wear any dress as long as it is 'modest' and does not show her 'adornments' to the public.


Why are girls/women not allowed to go to school?

Do you know how much funds are reserved for education in Pakistan ?? Less than 2 per cent of GDP! More than 50 percent citizens live below poverty line, they don't have money to buy books, uniform and pay for the conveyance. In fact many do not even have enough food to sustain their families. You must know that our govt do not support anyone here....you have to 'strive' for your sustenance or just die off! In short the problem is socio-economic, mostly in remote places,not religious. Females do go to schools and there is no bar on their studying in schools. Islam doesn't stop them from doing that...



Why do women who committed adultery are killed by stoning?


How do you want them to be killed??? Electrocuted??
I haven't heard any woman been stoned to death in Pakistan! With Saudi Arabia the case is different because that is monarchy and as you know it's the lords who make the law! Punishment for adultery is 100 lashes--for married and 80 lashes for unmarried. Both rape and fornication are punishable at Islam. Islam lays emphasis on 'chastity' and 'purity of soul and body' and looks down at behaving like animals, in this case illegitimate sex.
NB: the punishment is for both men and women convicts.

****


Maz, your position is stereotype. The west doesn't crave materialism the way you portrayed us. For example, in the US religion is separate from state, we have the freedom to creativity, and that's our way of life. We can enjoy materialism and practice religion both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

I know that but I have noticed that people in the West are vehemently critical of their 'religion' and hardly take it as a 'serious matter'. I also think that it is not separation of state from religion that makes the west go as it is but
good ''management' and 'organized societal system' mainly.

You will not deny the fact that the Muslim had their Golden Age when the state and Islam were hand in hand and the West was sunk in Dark Ages!
The trouble with Muslims is that they are not organized and suffer from bad state management, their leaders are selfish and not interested in ''creativity'' at all. Truly speaking there is NO Islamic state in the world and almost all so-called Muslim states are either following the dictates of their monarchs and dictators or just ceding to the excesses of democracy.

[mazHur]

Interesting Facts About Dubai.

A Paradigm of a Totally Materialistic Society


Dubai is the land of the biggest, tallest, longest, widest, richest, fanciest, fastest...everything is t... in the world.

They have the tallest residential towers in the world, the tallest restaurant in the world, the largest number of Malbaris in the world, the highest crane operator in the world.

If it does not grow in Dubai , they' ll make it artificially - artificial ski slopes, artificial islands, artificial oasis, coconut trees and lawns, artificial beaches, artificial economy.

Indians especially love it here because of the dirham-to-rupee value. Pakistanis adore it.

The Egyptians come here because there is nothing to do in Egypt . No more pyramids to build either.

The Filipinos come here because they have no choice; there's nothing back home, not even dogs - they've been eaten up.

The Brits come here coz they have forgotten what it is to enjoy 3 meals a day in UK and nobody employs them there for the crap they give. .

The Lebanese come here to buy cars, dress to kill, wear Peter Pan shoes 10 sizes bigger than their feet, put 1 kg of gel on their heads and give everyone ball talk. They'll buy a 1980s Merc or BMW for 10k dirhams and drive the car like they're sitting in the rear passenger seat, stretching their arms all the way to the steering wheel, giving you the piercing bald eagle look.

Russian girls come here for "fun".

The Bangladeshis come here to serve you when you honk outside a Baklava (shop), but would not even look at you if you park and go inside to pickup yourself.

Now according to the government Dubai is Tax free. Of course, that is true. You only have to pay for the visa, medical, sponsor, insurance, resident ID, Opening a bank account or even closing an account, Municipality, Sewerage, attestation of papers, translation of papers, driving license papers, lessons, Car license, testing, and .... but the salary is Tax Free.

Only, there is a Pay and Park scheme with 5000 parking lots, and 500,000 cars in the city, so where the hell do you park? And you are fined for wrong parking.

Toll has been introduced on many roads. You can avoid the toll tax by using alternative routes, but you'll end up in a traffic jam because everyone is trying to avoid the toll tax.

If you have any government related work like medicals for visa or immigration, you have 2 options - Standard and Urgent Procedure. Standard takes 15 days and Urgent takes 2 days. The difference is 30 to 40-odd dirhams. Everyone goes for the urgent option and the Dubai government makes money, urgently.

If you switch jobs you get a work ban and to lift the ban you pay a huge penalty.

In Dubai , without a car you are paralyzed (you don't even get jobs if you don't have a car). But you 'll get your license in attempts ranging from 2 to 20. Each time you fail you have paid fees for Driving classes & Driving Tests, which are 1000-odd dirhams. Imagine the money RTA makes.

Most of the expats live alone with families back home. So they spend much on phone calls. And call charges from Dubai are high.

Another odd thing about Dubai - no matter where you go or who you meet, you take down phone numbers. Everybody has everybody's number in Dubai . And everyone has a Visiting Card, whether you are a bootlegger, a masseuse, a hooker, a car cleaner, a watchman or a pizza delivery boy. Everyone knocks around with lots of cards in his or her wallet and one card in the palm. So whenever you shake hands with anyone in Dubai and let go, you end up with a visiting card in your palm.

If you're walking on the road and you ask someone the time, he'll tell you 10:30, give you his card and say, I have new and second-hand watches.

At a restaurant when you are leaving they'll say Here is my card, call us for home delivery.

If you're below your building, you'll meet those Chinese chicks giving you their cards, saying, Call us if you want DVDs.

If you're standing at a bus stop, a
Pakistani will pull over in his 1980 Toyota Corolla, give you his card and say, If you want Pick-up & Drop Service, call me.

Dubai has amusing-looking buildings. Some have holes in them, some have giant balls on them, some look like aeroplanes, some look like sail boats, and, all of them reach into space with your window right in front of the moon.

Everyone in Dubai goes to malls. Not necessarily to shop. To beat the heat, go to a mall; business meeting, go to a mall; getting bored, go to a mall; want to take a leak or dump, go to a mall; want to do lukhagiri (little in your pocket, little in your mind), go to a mall.

If you want to go for a picnic go to a mall.

Some Malbaris go home to Kerala, get married, and then come to a Dubai Mall for their honeymoon.

[ralfyman]

The latter is not taking place as seen in the rise of BRIC and emerging markets.

[JCamilo]

It is not dubai only and so far the only argument that east is not materiaslist is because it is written in a book (and people dont follow it completely). It is bit like arguing americans being christians - not little and seriously christians - are not materialists because at some point jesus said it was easier for the poor to enter in the realm of god.

[smerdyakov]

Sorry but I am of the opinion that the very premise of the thread is a nonsense.
Not everyone who lives in capitalistic democracies "craves" materialism and not everyone in the east is "religious". This dichotomy is laughable for anyone who doesn't have a "child's brain".
It is a moot point (like most threads on here I am noticing), and also, it is childishly naive to think in those terms. It's the kind of divisive, backward thing some uneducated, disenfranchised jihadist might utter.

Imran Khan's views are prehistoric; he should stick to the cricket. The whole article is a badly conceived series of assumptions. And it is written in such an obvious fashion as well! When he suggests things like "all morality has its roots in religion" i genuinely feel sorry for the man.All morality has its roots in mans sense of justice, that's where it always was, it didn't fall out of the sky.

Religion is "a voluntary state of madness". We need to rid the world of it.

[mazHur]

Sorry but I am of the opinion that the very premise of the thread is a nonsense.
Not everyone who lives in capitalistic democracies "craves" materialism and not everyone in the east is "religious". This dichotomy is laughable for anyone who doesn't have a "child's brain".
It is a moot point (like most threads on here I am noticing), and also, it is childishly naive to think in those terms. It's the kind of divisive, backward thing some uneducated, disenfranchised jihadist might utter.

Imran Khan's views are prehistoric; he should stick to the cricket. The whole article is a badly conceived series of assumptions. And it is written in such an obvious fashion as well! When he suggests things like "all morality has its roots in religion" i genuinely feel sorry for the man.All morality has its roots in mans sense of justice, that's where it always was, it didn't fall out of the sky.

Religion is "a voluntary state of madness". We need to rid the world of it.


Why, do you want to defeat the right of freedom of speech or dialogue?? Many a problem is undone through mutual dialogue.

[JCamilo]

Well, he has a point, the article is polite, but still bigotry as anything that is unlike him is bad, a half-baked, or else. I have no doubt that only a deep study of the Qu'ran will give you some knowledge about it, but it does not give him nothing else but other areas and his visions of west are just a bunch of prejudice. Perhaps they make sense within the Pakisthan sittuation,where indeed, the country's international interventions just help to keep it in a chaos, but that is all.

[smerdyakov]

Why, do you want to defeat the right of freedom of speech or dialogue?? Many a problem is undone through mutual dialogue.

Hi mazHur.

I'm all for freedom of speech and debate; it doesn't mean I have to agree with what the article.

[mazHur]

Hi mazHur.

I'm all for freedom of speech and debate; it doesn't mean I have to agree with what the article.

thanks:)

[BienvenuJDC]

Religion is "a voluntary state of madness". We need to rid the world of it.

While this might be true of some extremist religions, I think that this world would be a terrible place to live if it wasn't for religion.


Well, he has a point, the article is polite, but still bigotry as anything that is unlike him is bad, a half-baked, or else. I have no doubt that only a deep study of the Qu'ran will give you some knowledge about it, but it does not give him nothing else but other areas and his visions of west are just a bunch of prejudice. Perhaps they make sense within the Pakisthan sittuation,where indeed, the country's international interventions just help to keep it in a chaos, but that is all.

All the Pakistani politicians have been talking sweet like Imran to make a breakthrough in politics or to achieve power. Judging by his company, I am doubtful if Imran would be able to deliver what he says. The only edge he has over his contemporary politicians and is favored by younger generation is it wants Change from conventional politicians and they see a new face in Imran who is mainly popular because he had won the ex-Cricket World Cup for the country and built the largest Cancer Welfare Hospital in south Asia. Moreover, he does seem to have somewhat unblemished character (though his reputation as a Muslim was marred due to his illegitimate relations with a blond and the daughter she gave birth to ..which were not owned by Imran despite public demand for DNA test) but as far as his lifestyle is concerned it contradicts the way his country men live. (he lives in a posh farmhouse stretching over 300 Acres and has some other high-prized properties...wonder if ever paid his taxes or just got all he has in dowry from Jemima?)

With people economically crushed, acute lack of gas, water and electricity, unemployment and lack of rule of law and justice, I am not sure Imran and his team of many ill-reputed rejected by other political parties shall be able to perform as it their talk sounds...?


While this might be true of some extremist religions, I think that this world would be a terrible place to live if it wasn't for religion.

hehe!! I don't think there is ANY so called 'extremist' religion in the world. Maybe there are people who take their religion differently.


hehe!! I don't think there is ANY so called 'extremist' religion in the world. Maybe there are people who take their religion differently.

Jim Jones in Jonestown Guyana?
David Koresh in Waco, TX?
What about those Muslims who believe that everyone else should die?

I would describe these as "religions" of there own, because they have different values and goals. I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with your definitions. And I would say that anyone who worships the devil (as the Christian view of the devil) is something that this world does not need. As any of the religions of past cultures that called for human sacrifice. I bet factions of those still exist as well.

[mazHur]

Jim Jones in Jonestown Guyana?
David Koresh in Waco, TX?
What about those Muslims who believe that everyone else should die?

I haven't heard of the first two until now...
As for 'those Muslims who......................die'' I must say that\s a wrong perception as why would anyone kill anyone without some good reason??
Those Muslims who are doing that without 'justification' are deviates of their faith. Killing an enemy in self-defence or during wars is elemental in almost all religions.

I would describe these as "religions" of there own, because they have different values and goals. I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with your definitions. And I would say that anyone who worships the devil (as the Christian view of the devil) is something that this world does not need. As any of the religions of past cultures that called for human sacrifice. I bet factions of those still exist as well.[/QUOTE]

A shoe wouldn't fit all sizes, will it?? I already said it is upto one as to how he takes his religion, how he reads his Book?

[Haunted]

That is because of their law!

It's a religion-based law:

The Islam based theocracy in Saudi Arabia imposes certain laws which discriminate women in many ways from men including a ban on driving. Saudi clerics issued a non-binding fatwa, or religious edict, in 1991 banning women from driving. (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/169621/20110626/twitter-facebook-saudi-women-hillary-clinton-drive-youtube-islam-council-petition-legal-freedom-law.htm)


That is more of a cultural problem.

It's an Islamic / religious requirement:
an educated Muslim woman does this [covering their faces] because she is following guidance from God and His prophet Muhammad recorded in the Qur'an, and in the Sunnah (the knowledge about the practice and example of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)). (http://www.islamic.org.uk/hijab.html)


Again that is a cultural problem. Burqa is not prescribed by Islam...A woman can wear any dress as long as it is 'modest' and does not show her 'adornments' to the public.

See the above reply.



Do you know how much funds are reserved for education in Pakistan ?? Less than 2 per cent of GDP! More than 50 percent citizens live below poverty line, they don't have money to buy books, uniform and pay for the conveyance. In fact many do not even have enough food to sustain their families. You must know that our govt do not support anyone here....you have to 'strive' for your sustenance or just die off! In short the problem is socio-economic, mostly in remote places,not religious. Females do go to schools and there is no bar on their studying in schools. Islam doesn't stop them from doing that...

Perhaps Pakistan should divert its funding for nuclear weapons to education?



How do you want them to be killed??? Electrocuted??
I haven't heard any woman been stoned to death in Pakistan! With Saudi Arabia the case is different because that is monarchy and as you know it's the lords who make the law! Punishment for adultery is 100 lashes--for married and 80 lashes for unmarried. Both rape and fornication are punishable at Islam. Islam lays emphasis on 'chastity' and 'purity of soul and body' and looks down at behaving like animals, in this case illegitimate sex.
NB: the punishment is for both men and women convicts.


northwest Pakistan:
Footage of a woman dying under a barrage of stones. Her crime: seen out with a man. (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/video-surfaces-of-taliban-stoning-woman-in-northwest-pakistan.html)

"This is Sharia. This is an act Muhammad approved of and participated in, according to canonical Islamic sources including Sahih ("sound," "reliable") Bukhari."



I know that but I have noticed that people in the West are vehemently critical of their 'religion' and hardly take it as a 'serious matter'. I also think that it is not separation of state from religion that makes the west go as it is but
good ''management' and 'organized societal system' mainly.

You will not deny the fact that the Muslim had their Golden Age when the state and Islam were hand in hand and the West was sunk in Dark Ages!
The trouble with Muslims is that they are not organized and suffer from bad state management, their leaders are selfish and not interested in ''creativity'' at all. Truly speaking there is NO Islamic state in the world and almost all so-called Muslim states are either following the dictates of their monarchs and dictators or just ceding to the excesses of democracy.

Your assessments of Muslim states are insightful. Creativity is key to improve our way of living. But your perception of the West is flawed if you consider material inventions and innovations as bad things. The assumption that the western world is all about materialism, is just that, an assumption.

Westerners "vehemently critical of their 'religion'" because they can, under human rights and freedom of speech. And the fact that they are so critical, doesn't that tell you that religion is a 'serious matter' to them too?

You might have been misled by the western media that portray a degenerative lifestyle as examplified by such personalities as Paris Hilton and Kim Kadashian, but those are reality shows, they do it for ratings and ironically bear no resemblance to reality. We buy cars and go on vacations, but is it really materialism or just a thing called living our lives and exercising our freedom of choice?

Just because people in the West aren't religious zealots and they don't pray multiple times a day, doesn't diminish their spirituality. If you stand back and take a look at the works of the Red Cross for instance, that spirit of charity and good will is founded largely on Christian values of love and mercy.

[Scheherazade]

~

Discussion of current politics and preaching are not allowed in this Forum.

~