Predictions that China will overtake US economically by 2018

[Paulclem]

I've just read in The Times that there are new predictions that China will overtake the US economically by 2018. I know little about how these things are measured, and it may or may not come to pass anyway. I'm not so interested in the nuts and bolts of it here.

What may be interesting is how you feel, and what you think about that. As a citizen of a faded global economic power, the event had overtaken us before I had the opportunity to alter the course of history. I suspect my current shoulder shrugging response is merely jaded acceptance. It is part of the British psyche, though it may not have been before our decline.

I have noted sometimes the great spirit of USA! USA! not necessarily pervading these forums, but being apparent on the TV. How will the ascendancy of China affect US citizens and your good selves? Will it really matter at all, or will there be some effects upon the US psyche.

[Emil Miller]

I've just read in The Times that there are new predictions that China will overtake the US economically by 2018. I know little about how these things are measured, and it may or may not come to pass anyway. I'm not so interested in the nuts and bolts of it here.

What may be interesting is how you feel, and what you think about that. As a citizen of a faded global economic power, the event had overtaken us before I had the opportunity to alter the course of history. I suspect my current shoulder shrugging response is merely jaded acceptance. It is part of the British psyche, though it may not have been before our decline.

I have noted sometimes the great spirit of USA! USA! not necessarily pervading these forums, but being apparent on the TV. How will the ascendancy of China affect US citizens and your good selves? Will it really matter at all, or will there be some effects upon the US psyche.

You're way too late with this, it's been discussed frequently for the past five years. In answer to your last double question, the answers are YES and IT ALREADY HAS.

[Varenne Rodin]

For me, the gilding was off of the lily years ago. I have become increasingly disgusted by the pompous attitudes of the media and our political figures. I think being humbled could be a good thing, if we as a group take it in a positive direction. I hope the world will be forgiving of our transgressions as we become a more weakened nation (in ways). I still very much love my country, this place that so badly wanted to be a free community. I love the land. I love California and its progressive laws to protect its people. This will be my home until I die, rich or poor.

In ways we are already a part of the Chinese empire. I don't know what to think about that at all. China is ancient. It has sustained very well. Its economic ascension should come as no surprise. The government is efficient toward its goals, though that success has been and is often at the expense of individuals. American national government has become hindered by the freedoms it implemented; the bickering and corruption those freedoms gave way to. I don't know which is worse.

[Varenne Rodin]

It is 5AM here and I have not slept. Please pardon me for anything that may have been incoherent. :)

[Emil Miller]

[QUOTE=Varenne Rodin;1102793] American national government has become hindered by the freedoms it implemented; QUOTE]

Which is why the Chinese have no intention of going the same way.

[Paulclem]

So there is scope for discussion.:D

[Paulclem]

For me, the gilding was off of the lily years ago. I have become increasingly disgusted by the pompous attitudes of the media and our political figures. I think being humbled could be a good thing, if we as a group take it in a positive direction. I hope the world will be forgiving of our transgressions as we become a more weakened nation (in ways). I still very much love my country, this place that so badly wanted to be a free community. I love the land. I love California and its progressive laws to protect its people. This will be my home until I die, rich or poor.

In ways we are already a part of the Chinese empire. I don't know what to think about that at all. China is ancient. It has sustained very well. Its economic ascension should come as no surprise. The government is efficient toward its goals, though that success has been and is often at the expense of individuals. American national government has become hindered by the freedoms it implemented; the bickering and corruption those freedoms gave way to. I don't know which is worse.

Do you think the US will try to reassert itself should this come to pass, or will it - like the UK before it - simply try to maintain a "superpower profile"? (I've no doubt that it will remain a superpower, but the UK, whilst being much smaller seems to persist in the myth of Empire such as in the Falklands, and in its support for intervention in the Middle East and Bosnia in the 1990s).

I was reading something about India today too, which is also marching up the economic ladder, but as yet has failed to secure the infrastructure of the country.

[KCurtis]

The government is efficient toward its goals, though that success has been and is often at the expense of individuals. American national government has become hindered by the freedoms it implemented; the bickering and corruption those freedoms gave way to. I don't know which is worse.

I do, and I think you do too. That's why you still love your country, with all it's imperfections and serious flaws.
Freedom.
The Chinese don't have this. Anyone who has ever lived under communism can tell you how horrible it is. I have met a few, and they live here.
We may have stupid politicians, but at least they cannot be president for life :yikes: Unless those politicians are in congress. :cuss:

[Varenne Rodin]

I do, and I think you do too. That's why you still love your country, with all it's imperfections and serious flaws.
Freedom.
The Chinese don't have this. Anyone who has ever lived under communism can tell you how horrible it is. I have met a few, and they live here.
We may have stupid politicians, but at least they cannot be president for life :yikes: Unless those politicians are in congress. :cuss:

It's a tough call. One is stronger and more sustaining over time. I'm not for communism under dictatorship or to serve an empire at grave cost to its citizens (that's fascism), but some socialist programs are necessary to a functioning society. I've seen conservative effects on the state of Florida and various third world countries. I'm really not sure what the best course of action is or what causes the least amount of harm. I am certain, however, that I have very little say in the matter (if any).

[Alexander III]

These are all cycles. Now is the dusk of democracy in my opinion. It reached it's peak in the last century and was fought against and it perceived and stood strong, and now it crumbles from within rather than from without, like all political systems. Like Monarchy and oligarchy before it.

China is just the physical representation of the change in zeitgeist. For better or for worse, the world will be different, as it always has and always will be.

Shelley put it best, to paraphrase, the only thing immutable is mutability itself.

[Varenne Rodin]

Do you think the US will try to reassert itself should this come to pass, or will it - like the UK before it - simply try to maintain a "superpower profile"? (I've no doubt that it will remain a superpower, but the UK, whilst being much smaller seems to persist in the myth of Empire such as in the Falklands, and in its support for intervention in the Middle East and Bosnia in the 1990s).

I was reading something about India today too, which is also marching up the economic ladder, but as yet has failed to secure the infrastructure of the country.

Good points. I think America will hold on to the tough guy front as long as it can. Eventually I think it will be too impoverished to function better than third world countries. The leaders will be as pompous as ever. These are just my opinions though. I can't pretend great insight on the matter. :)

[KCurtis]

It's a tough call. One is stronger and more sustaining over time. I'm not for communism under dictatorship or to serve an empire at grave cost to its citizens (that's fascism), but some socialist programs are necessary to a functioning society. I've seen conservative effects on the state of Florida and various third world countries. I'm really not sure what the best course of action is or what causes the least amount of harm. I am certain, however, that I have very little say in the matter (if any).

It is a tough call, and I am not a politically knowledgeable person really. I think if some sort of social program concerning health care is cost effective to all, fine- but I am skeptical. I am certainly not against social programs to take care of people- my son gets SSI due to a mental disability. I also know that in Canada the elderly are taken care of better- and people pay much more in taxes. There is so much more the government can do to save money I think- time will tell.

[Varenne Rodin]

It is a tough call, and I am not a politically knowledgeable person really. I think if some sort of social program concerning health care is cost effective to all, fine- but I am skeptical. I am certainly not against social programs to take care of people- my son gets SSI due to a mental disability. I also know that in Canada the elderly are taken care of better- and people pay much more in taxes. There is so much more the government can do to save money I think- time will tell.

I completely agree with you. We should start by severely limiting special interest lobbying. We should take subsidies away from mega wealthy corporations like the cotton industry. I'm not even saying we have to tax them more, we just shouldn't GIVE them taxpayer money. People will still buy tons of jeans and t-shirts. Cotton doesn't need extra free money. There are lots of things that can be done to lessen money burdens for the whole nation, but our two party system is basically one party now, and it's corporate. I have no idea what's going to happen in the next election, but I think the outcome will be the same.

[Darcy88]

I do not think there's ever in the history of the world been two top dog superpowers who did not butt heads militarily. Nuclear deterrence will likely prevent all out war, but I can easily envision the development of another cold war scenario. Once American economic power wanes an appreciable extent it will be left with only gunboat diplomacy to assert itself.

[Varenne Rodin]

I do not think there's ever in the history of the world been two top dog superpowers who did not butt heads militarily. Nuclear deterrence will likely prevent all out war, but I can easily envision the development of another cold war scenario. Once American economic power wanes an appreciable extent it will be left with only gunboat diplomacy to assert itself.

I agree with this. Again, the question I ask myself is, when is the best time to move out of this country, and where to?

[KCurtis]

I completely agree with you. We should start by severely limiting special interest lobbying. We should take subsidies away from mega wealthy corporations like the cotton industry. I'm not even saying we have to tax them more, we just shouldn't GIVE them taxpayer money. People will still buy tons of jeans and t-shirts. Cotton doesn't need extra free money. There are lots of things that can be done to lessen money burdens for the whole nation, but our two party system is basically one party now, and it's corporate. I have no idea what's going to happen in the next election, but I think the outcome will be the same.

That makes too much sense.


I do not think there's ever in the history of the world been two top dog superpowers who did not butt heads militarily. Nuclear deterrence will likely prevent all out war, but I can easily envision the development of another cold war scenario. Once American economic power wanes an appreciable extent it will be left with only gunboat diplomacy to assert itself.
Oh let's be more optimistic!! PLEASE! It does seem like there will be a lot of sameness. Another cold war with the middle east this time. Maybe. I just want my 401k to grow. Is that asking too much?

[Varenne Rodin]

I hope it will, KCurtis. I talk about moving but, like I said, this is home. There are still a lot of decent people here struggling to keep the ship afloat. Things could always get better. :)

[Darcy88]

I am not optimistic. I predict widespread economic and environmental chaos. I hope I'm wrong. If the world economy takes a steep dive the ramifications will be hellish. And the inevitable global environmental catastrophe will be unlike anything any of us can even imagine. And this ain't tin foil hat looniness I'm saying here. The pentagon recognizes that climate change will become the greatest threat to American national security.

I usually keep these thoughts to myself. Again, I hope I am wrong.

[JBI]

China is four or five times the population of the United States, economically then, to "overtake" the US it should be expected to have an economy proportional to its population size, meaning 4 to five times greater than that of the United States.

As a Sinologist, I can't help but just laugh at these ignorant arguments about the rise of China and all this nonsense.

What really is going on is that their market share is becoming more in line with their population. There is still an economic disaster there happening right now, and there is still an infrastructure problem at home that keeps most of the population at a relatively low human development level and socio-economic bracket.

As for the purchasing power - well, Canadians are happy more or less, and we have never been a really big player. Size doesn't matter really, what matters are the development of a place's citizens. The Americans seem preoccupied with this dated myth of national wellbeing as seen through imperialist terms which has been out of favor in many places for well over 50 years.

As for the actualities of Chinese development, well, obesity, heart disease, lung cancer, throat cancer, environmentally-related illnesses, as well as aging, lack of natural resources, and simple corruption stand directly in the way, more so than other places, as the health-care infrastructure in China, like their hero, the US, is dismally lacking and the majority of adult men consume cigarettes and alcohol like bread and water.

Everyone these days seems to have an opinion on China's rise - will they pass, when will they pass etc. - but how many have an opinion as to what it means to be prosperous as a nation, or individual, and how does that relate to family issues.

The air in Beijing is disgusting. Other cities are worse in China and in the world. Even if the streets were paved with gold, it would still be disgusting to live there, and many citizens have taken to wearing masks while walking in the street.

If you want to look at efficient economic success and development, I would recommend gazing at China's neighbour, South Korea, as that is a far more interesting ground - the power of something like Samsung as a market is far more fascinating than the ability of the Chinese economy to exploit cheap labour and authoritarian opportunism.

[JBI]

It is a tough call, and I am not a politically knowledgeable person really. I think if some sort of social program concerning health care is cost effective to all, fine- but I am skeptical. I am certainly not against social programs to take care of people- my son gets SSI due to a mental disability. I also know that in Canada the elderly are taken care of better- and people pay much more in taxes. There is so much more the government can do to save money I think- time will tell.

It's about where the money goes - Canadians regard, for instance, health care as a source of pride and human right. American governments put tons of cash into the military, for instance, which other countries don't. It's about giving people what they really want.

[Emil Miller]

I do not think there's ever in the history of the world been two top dog superpowers who did not butt heads militarily. Nuclear deterrence will likely prevent all out war, but I can easily envision the development of another cold war scenario. Once American economic power wanes an appreciable extent it will be left with only gunboat diplomacy to assert itself.

Anybody who is interested in China knows that the Chinese have designs on what has long been a major American sphere of influence: namely, the Pacific ocean, which is why they have one aircraft carrier that is being used to train crews that will eventually man the five others that are currently on the drawing board. It is inevitable that there will be a clash of interests in the region at some point. It seems that 2020 is the year when Chinese naval power will be equal to that of the US Pacific fleet. At least, that's what a Chinese admiral was recently reported as saying.
Today, I bought a copy of Le Figaro with a headline that reads Objectif Lune pour les Chinois because the Chinese government has given the go- ahead for sending men to the moon by 2020 to be followed by the establishment of a space station on the lunar surface. There have already been a number of manned space flights and they have recently joined two separate vehicles in space. Their next generation of rockets, Long March-5, will be capable of carrying up to 25 tons, and a space laboratory is envisaged for 2016. The plans also include a space station.
It's not looking too good for the US but a fabulolus scenario is unfolding before us. When they come to make the film, I'm betting that it will be in Chinese.

[cafolini]

That makes too much sense.


Oh let's be more optimistic!! PLEASE! It does seem like there will be a lot of sameness. Another cold war with the middle east this time. Maybe. I just want my 401k to grow. Is that asking too much?

There is no other power in the world that could match 10% of our resources and military power. Waning? I wonder where people get that idea who's reading the facts. The chances are far higher that slowly they'll all integrate into de globalization of democracy and freedom.
We have umbeliebable weapons we are showing the world only because we are afraid that some of the very primitive and ignorant countries, like Venezuela, for example, might start a war. If they don't get it, too bad. They will.

[Emil Miller]

There is no other power in the world that could match 10% of our resources and military power. Waning? I wonder where people get that idea who's reading the facts. The chances are far higher that slowly they'll all integrate into de globalization of democracy and freedom.
We have umbeliebable weapons we are showing the world only because we are afraid that some of the very primitive and ignorant countries, like Venezuela, for example, might start a war. If they don't get it, too bad. They will.

Unless you have something intelligible to say, why comment at all ?

[Paulclem]

There is no other power in the world that could match 10% of our resources and military power. Waning? I wonder where people get that idea who's reading the facts. The chances are far higher that slowly they'll all integrate into de globalization of democracy and freedom.
We have umbeliebable weapons we are showing the world only because we are afraid that some of the very primitive and ignorant countries, like Venezuela, for example, might start a war. If they don't get it, too bad. They will.

The predictions of economists suggested that it would be 2048 when the US was overtaken. This has had a couple of revisions - according to the Times today - the lowest being 2018.

Not only is China coming up but India too - both with populations that exceed the US considerably. On the downside as JBI pointed out, they have infrastructure problems and severe corruption issues - particularly India whose upper house debated a popular anti-corruption bill and got it delayed for at least 2 months. According to the Times , (it was a fascinating read today), this will affect foreign investment in the country.

That aside, make no mistake that China is developing its military as Brian has said.

[KCurtis]

There is no other power in the world that could match 10% of our resources and military power. Waning? I wonder where people get that idea who's reading the facts. The chances are far higher that slowly they'll all integrate into de globalization of democracy and freedom.
We have umbeliebable weapons we are showing the world only because we are afraid that some of the very primitive and ignorant countries, like Venezuela, for example, might start a war. If they don't get it, too bad. They will.

True-Iran is not a power that can match us, but if they get nuclear weapons they are then threatening Israel, which we will have to defend. I don't want to think about a declining democracy and freedom- but I do.

[KCurtis]

Unless you have something intelligible to say, why comment at all ?
And why isn't what Cafolini said intelligible? You need to explain yourself.

[cafolini]

The predictions of economists suggested that it would be 2048 when the US was overtaken. This has had a couple of revisions - according to the Times today - the lowest being 2018.

Not only is China coming up but India too - both with populations that exceed the US considerably. On the downside as JBI pointed out, they have infrastructure problems and severe corruption issues - particularly India whose upper house debated a popular anti-corruption bill and got it delayed for at least 2 months. According to the Times , (it was a fascinating read today), this will affect foreign investment in the country.

That aside, make no mistake that China is developing its military as Brian has said.

China is an allied when it comes to power. Nothing to fear from China. We are even giving them technology for commercial airplanes. Numbers don't mean diddley anymore. Check military.com to see what we have. The stealth, for example, is now so unreachable for the rest of the world. And you don't think that the allies gave HONG KONG to China as a Christmas present, do you? We are training them to integrate and they are doing it. We are teaching them capitalism and they are progressing well within what they are capable.
Numbers no longer mean diddley in today's economics.
We are supervising the Chinese like never before. 20 years ago, they started producing rustic machinery with exorbitant tolerances. Today they are shaping up and producing lots of great basic industry. Look at how Microsoft and Dell and Intel control the newest business technology. China is an allied. The mongers are crazy about this.

[Emil Miller]

And why isn't what Cafolini said intelligible? You need to explain yourself.

It's self-explanatory; he talks about 'we' having unbelievable weapons (Who's We?) then he rambles on about Venezuela. I would remind you that this thread is about China's rising economic power. Nothing Cafolini said has any relevance to the subject in hand and neither does your talk about Iran and Israel.

[cafolini]

It's self-explanatory; he talks about 'we' having unbelievable weapons (Who's We?) then he rambles on about Venezuela. I would remind you that this thread is about China's rising economic power. Nothing Cafolini said has any relevance to the subject in hand and neither does your talk about Iran and Israel.

We are the United States of America.
Hugo Chavez in Venezuela recently bought 20 billion worth of 30-year-old weapons. When asked what for, he said for the upcoming war.
I didn't deviate from the context of the subject. Just gave some examples that apply in viewing and contrasting the actual power of China and where it is going. I think you are the one who's rambling. Inform yourself.

[Emil Miller]

We are the United States of America.
Hugo Chavez in Venezuela recently bought 20 billion worth of 30-year-old weapons. When asked what for, he said for the upcoming war.
I didn't deviate from the context of the subject. Just gave some examples that apply in viewing and contrasting the actual power of China and where it is going. I think you are the one who's rambling. Inform yourself.

Thank you for explaining who 'we' are. I am quite aware of the problem that the USA is facing with regard to Venezuela and also of the declining power of communism in Cuba. All of which is peripheral to the question of China's position as an economic superpower.

[BienvenuJDC]

I hope it will, KCurtis. I talk about moving but, like I said, this is home. There are still a lot of decent people here struggling to keep the ship afloat. Things could always get better. :)

I think that we will emerge from this recession no matter what happens in the political realm. However, we do need to get away from the communist and socialist policies. That is what is killing the economy. I'm waiting for things to get better.

[Emil Miller]

I think that we will emerge from this recession no matter what happens in the political realm. However, we do need to get away from the communist and socialist policies. That is what is killing the economy. I'm waiting for things to get better.

An interesting viewpoint, but it isn't socialism or communism that is destroying the US economy, as deadly as they are, but its $15 trillion of debt.

[KCurtis]

It's self-explanatory; he talks about 'we' having unbelievable weapons (Who's We?) then he rambles on about Venezuela. I would remind you that this thread is about China's rising economic power. Nothing Cafolini said has any relevance to the subject in hand and neither does your talk about Iran and Israel.
Oh really. By "we" he is referring to the U.S., as that is where he is from. As far as the thread, let me remind YOU that economics and global threats go hand in hand.

[KCurtis]

We are the United States of America.
Hugo Chavez in Venezuela recently bought 20 billion worth of 30-year-old weapons. When asked what for, he said for the upcoming war.
I didn't deviate from the context of the subject. Just gave some examples that apply in viewing and contrasting the actual power of China and where it is going. I think you are the one who's rambling. Inform yourself.

Hugo Chavez also said he thinks the U.S. has developed a cancer inducing device that is involved in the deaths of several South American presidents. What an idiot. If this is "off thread" I don't care.
:argue:

[Emil Miller]

Oh really. As far as the thread, let me remind YOU that economics and global threats go hand in hand.

Tell me something I don't know but this thread is specifically about China's growing economic power vis-a-vis that of the USA's declining economy.

[JBI]

China is an allied when it comes to power. Nothing to fear from China. We are even giving them technology for commercial airplanes. Numbers don't mean diddley anymore. Check military.com to see what we have. The stealth, for example, is now so unreachable for the rest of the world. And you don't think that the allies gave HONG KONG to China as a Christmas present, do you? We are training them to integrate and they are doing it. We are teaching them capitalism and they are progressing well within what they are capable.
Numbers no longer mean diddley in today's economics.
We are supervising the Chinese like never before. 20 years ago, they started producing rustic machinery with exorbitant tolerances. Today they are shaping up and producing lots of great basic industry. Look at how Microsoft and Dell and Intel control the newest business technology. China is an allied. The mongers are crazy about this.

No, China has more power to buy US votes than most other players. They are an ally, but they are not a child. You sound like an ignorant fool when you speak in such terms as "teaching them" and "giving them" capitalism. Perhaps it is this attitude that sees a country bankrupt itself by purchasing guns and foolishly invading foreign countries.

[Paulclem]

China is an allied when it comes to power. Nothing to fear from China. We are even giving them technology for commercial airplanes. Numbers don't mean diddley anymore. Check military.com to see what we have. The stealth, for example, is now so unreachable for the rest of the world. And you don't think that the allies gave HONG KONG to China as a Christmas present, do you? We are training them to integrate and they are doing it. We are teaching them capitalism and they are progressing well within what they are capable.
Numbers no longer mean diddley in today's economics.
We are supervising the Chinese like never before. 20 years ago, they started producing rustic machinery with exorbitant tolerances. Today they are shaping up and producing lots of great basic industry. Look at how Microsoft and Dell and Intel control the newest business technology. China is an allied. The mongers are crazy about this.

You're speaking from a position of economic dominance. The question is what is the effect going to be if China becomes economically dominant? It's not really about now, and the tech and resources available now is it? I don't think anyone would suggest that China will try to take over the world as soon as it becomes the leading power - if it does. It will be a few decades at least. But consider this - in the same article in the Times it recorded that China now registers the most scientific patents in the world. You might have the best tech now - if you do - who knows - but will that be sustained decades from now with the resources, training and economic dominance?

[JBI]

I think that we will emerge from this recession no matter what happens in the political realm. However, we do need to get away from the communist and socialist policies. That is what is killing the economy. I'm waiting for things to get better.

Oh the old fear of socialism, the secret disease that plagues nations - what a washed out argument. The binary only works in rhetoric and not in practice - if you look at things like urban development, you see striking similarities between modernization processes in both communist and capitalist countries - it just pushes more to an understanding of the world in terms of mass movement regardless of the formal logic of a political system. ideological frameworks are still informing the decision making in capitalism - the only real difference in these "socialist" regimes is the extent in which things are unbiasedly given to people - for instance, medical care.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I think that we will emerge from this recession no matter what happens in the political realm. However, we do need to get away from the communist and socialist policies. That is what is killing the economy. I'm waiting for things to get better.

And what communist and social policies would those be, exactly?

[cafolini]

No, China has more power to buy US votes than most other players. They are an ally, but they are not a child. You sound like an ignorant fool when you speak in such terms as "teaching them" and "giving them" capitalism. Perhaps it is this attitude that sees a country bankrupt itself by purchasing guns and foolishly invading foreign countries.

Firstly, I never said the Chinese are children. But they are just coming out to meet and participate in capitalism. And in that area, they have a lot to learn.
Secondly, you are the fool if you think we foolishly invade any foreign country. We did it when we needed to do it and we did it pretty well, and will do it again whenever necessary. And thirdly you don't understand the GNP of USA nor the incredible resources we handle. You are listening to GOP mongers that are not only funny but somewhat ignorant and often driven by Wallstreet propaganda (lately trying to rip people off with the price of gold).

[cafolini]

You're speaking from a position of economic dominance. The question is what is the effect going to be if China becomes economically dominant? It's not really about now, and the tech and resources available now is it? I don't think anyone would suggest that China will try to take over the world as soon as it becomes the leading power - if it does. It will be a few decades at least. But consider this - in the same article in the Times it recorded that China now registers the most scientific patents in the world. You might have the best tech now - if you do - who knows - but will that be sustained decades from now with the resources, training and economic dominance?

Do you think for a minute that while the Chinese progress we are going to sleep and wait until we are no longer the leaders? That would be utter nonsense.
About patents: Do you know how big is the bibliograply of IBM regarding patents? Just one example. There are many more. What about GE?
I don't know if you have been in USA. But if you live here, pay attention to more detail.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Secondly, you are the fool if you think we foolishly invade any foreign country.
I think the inverse of this statement of true. Iraq and Vietnam are proof of that.

[Paulclem]

Do you think for a minute that while the Chinese progress we are going to sleep and wait until we are no longer the leaders? That would be utter nonsense.
About patents: Do you know how big is the bibliograply of IBM regarding patents? Just one example. There are many more. What about GE?
I don't know if you have been in USA. But if you live here, pay attention to more detail.

It's not about what I think. I'm just stating what was reported in the press. there's an element of speculation about it, but the speculation concerns the timescale, not the fact that economic growth will outstrip the US and that China will be ascendant. That's not me either, just the economists.

I've no idea how big the bibliography of IBM is. What I said was that the situation now is that China has registered more patents. That means that they are innovating at a greater rate than any other country including the US.

You clearly feel challenged by this information. Don't worry - you can come and join us as members of the faded superpower club.

[Varenne Rodin]

I think that we will emerge from this recession no matter what happens in the political realm. However, we do need to get away from the communist and socialist policies. That is what is killing the economy. I'm waiting for things to get better.

If you are so strongly anti-socialist, you should never drive on a public street again, or walk on a public sidewalk, or enter a county building, or call the police if you witness a crime, or call the fire department if there's a fire. You should haul your own garbage to the dump every day. You should never use or accept mail from USPS. You should tell your government that you want oil companies to drill next to your house or on your favorite lake.

SOCIETY requires socialist programs, or it's anarchy. Anarchy leads to gangs and other civil and class warfare. Be less destructive to your community. Communist programs are supposed to be for a community. You don't hate communism, you fear fascism. I think we disagree on just about everything there is to disagree on. Yay! :D

[Darcy88]

I think that we will emerge from this recession no matter what happens in the political realm. However, we do need to get away from the communist and socialist policies. That is what is killing the economy. I'm waiting for things to get better.

Comments like this make me chuckle. America veers off in a radically anti-socialist direction beginning with Reagan, its economy subsequently suffers, inequality skyrockets as one would expect, and its socialism that's to blame. Damn that Goldstein!

[Paulclem]

It's funny that the OP was about a communist country overtaking the US economically. Yes it has a more capitalistic element, but it's way way more communist than the US.

In my humble opinion, socialism actually fuels the capitalist agenda. For example, if it weren't for the socialist struggle in the UK, and the securing of workers rights and conditions, no-one would have had the cash to fuel an economic boom. The short sighted capitalists would have had it stuffed into their pockets whilst everyone else lived in a relative penury.

[JuniperWoolf]

As for the purchasing power - well, Canadians are happy more or less, and we have never been a really big player.

I agree, I don't really care about the whole China vs. US thing. Who's on top doesn't affect me at all, Canada has already begun to move away from the United States as our primary trading partner. If a ship starts sinking you cut the line that binds it to your own.

Comments like this make me chuckle. America veers off in a radically anti-socialist direction beginning with Reagan, its economy subsequently suffers, inequality skyrockets as one would expect, and its socialism that's to blame. Damn that Goldstein!

I know, America is so not socialized. It's staggering when Fox news watchers blame all of their problems on socialism. What socialism? Aren't they the only first world nation who's citizens still have to pay their own medical bills out of pocket?

[Emil Miller]

Firstly, I never said the Chinese are children. But they are just coming out to meet and participate in capitalism. And in that area, they have a lot to learn.
Secondly, you are the fool if you think we foolishly invade any foreign country. We did it when we needed to do it and we did it pretty well, and will do it again whenever necessary. And thirdly you don't understand the GNP of USA nor the incredible resources we handle. You are listening to GOP mongers that are not only funny but somewhat ignorant and often driven by Wallstreet propaganda (lately trying to rip people off with the price of gold).

You seem to be remarkably out of touch with events if you think that the US can willy nilly invade foreign countries. In the recent Libyan conflict, they didn't get involved, leaving it to France and the UK instead, because their involvement in Iraq has been too costly. Put quite bluntly, they don't have the money and, having lost it's triple AAA status, the $US will have to be auctioned at higher rates of interest if, or when, they decide that something has to be done about the looming nuclear danger from Iran.
And as for the Chinese just beginning to participate in capitalism and having a lot to learn, that's ridiculous; the Chinese were a major trading power for centuries before the USA came into existence.

[B. Laumness]

Firstly, I never said the Chinese are children. But they are just coming out to meet and participate in capitalism. And in that area, they have a lot to learn.


They have already learned the lesson and put it very well in practice to the detriment of the western countries.

[KCurtis]

Tell me something I don't know but this thread is specifically about China's growing economic power vis-a-vis that of the USA's declining economy.
Thankyou for telling me what the thread is about. BTW, I feel a bit uncomfortable arguing with an Englishman. I do love things British.

[Alexander III]

There is no other power in the world that could match 10% of our resources and military power. Waning? I wonder where people get that idea who's reading the facts. The chances are far higher that slowly they'll all integrate into de globalization of democracy and freedom.
We have umbeliebable weapons we are showing the world only because we are afraid that some of the very primitive and ignorant countries, like Venezuela, for example, might start a war. If they don't get it, too bad. They will.

And yet, a couple of illiterate men with some donkeys, a holy book and a rocket launcher have kept an American army worth billions of dollars if not trillions, at bay for 10+years.

Should we look at the expenses of the Jihadists, and the expenses of the American Army in the last 10 years in Afghanistan, I think the answer is clear.

Technology does not win wars. It helps by god, but it won't win them.

After all were not the Nazis far more advanced than the russians americans and english, yet the russians and americans were far more cost effective. It is not about technology, it is about cost effectiveness. America needs to learn that.

[Alexander III]

I agree, I don't really care about the whole China vs. US thing. Who's on top doesn't affect me at all, Canada has already begun to move away from the United States as our primary trading partner. If a ship starts sinking you cut the line that binds it to your own.



Of course, but to make an analogy.

Canada is like just one of the many street pushers. It doesn't care who is the big boss, nothing changes, it gets its dope, it sells it and it is happy.

But America, America is like Don Corleone, the top boss. Once you have felt what it is like to be on top of the world, anything less is bitter disappointment. But when you have been mediocre your entire life, you don't know what you have missed and thus cant ever be to sad about it.

I talk not in economic terms but in political terms, Canada is little more than what Iberia was for the Roman empire, just another protectorate. First for the British then for the Americans. But then again so is Europe. But Europe is like what Greece was in the Roman empire, simply more valued because of their prestigious history and cultural achievements.

[Emil Miller]

BTW, I feel a bit uncomfortable arguing with an Englishman. I do love things British.

If you lived here, you might have a different attitude to things British. Personally, I have no illusions about the US and none about the UK either.

[cafolini]

If you lived here, you might have a different attitude to things British. Personally, I have no illusions about the US and none about the UK either.
No, I wouldn't. The measure is the value of the English pound. Now that the leaders of the European union robbed their own circulations, they are reacting by considering the elimination of the Euro. Highly unlikely. But are we English or Americans ever going to talk about the elimination of the dollar or the pound?
I know you people in England hate to be the little brothers, but we are doing well as such. Obviously. We are even consenting to the pound staying higher.

[Varenne Rodin]

If you lived here, you might have a different attitude to things British. Personally, I have no illusions about the US and none about the UK either.

I like the accents. :)

[stlukesguild]

After all were not the Nazis far more advanced than the russians americans and english, yet the russians and americans were far more cost effective. It is not about technology, it is about cost effectiveness. America needs to learn that.

Actually no. Or rather we should say that the technological and strategic advantage changed sides during the course of the war. The German tanks and the Blitzkrieg strategy caught the allies, still stuck in the WWI mentality of long drawn-out trench warfare, completely off guard. The Luftwaffe was armed with the Messerschmidt fighters that could run circles around anything the French, British, Americans, or Russians had. The Panzer and later the Tiger tanks put any allied armor to shame. The British, on the other hand, rules the waves with their navy, although the German submarine fleet proved highly effective here. The advantages that the allies had were threefold. First the United States was far to remote to be a target, allowing the vast American industrial complex to churn out weaponry completely without threat. Secondly, the Soviets bought time for the US to fully arm itself. Thirdly, the US recognized that it was he who controls the skies who controls the war. In contrast to the small German bombers by Junkers and Heinkel the US churned out heavy bombers such as the B-17 "Flying Fortress", the B-24 "Liberator" and the B-29 "Superfortress" as well as the British Avro Lancaster and Manchester. These planes were capable of traveling long distances and dropping huge payloads. They were heavily armed and armored and able to sustain repeated hits and still fly. They were also churned out in vast quantities. Finally the Americans and British developed fighters that far outclassed the Germans in terms of speed, maneuverability, and armaments by midway through the war. The only areas in which the German maintained technological superiority were in the developments of rockets and jets. Unfortunately the VI and VII rockets were of limited use and the rocket and jet fighters developed in the final days of the war were too little too late.

With regard to the American interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq... these are closer to the sort of police actions of Vietnam and Korea as opposed to all-out total warfare. If the US had waged the sort of total warfare involving carpet bombing as used in WWII there would be virtually nothing left of Iraq or Afghanistan. This is something that various Islamic intellectuals have recognized. Like Hitler, many Islamic extremists underestimate the Western democracies as weak because of the fact that they are not quick to respond... and they have yet to respond with a real vengeance. The United States using the full capabilities of its military is not something I look forward to witnessing in my lifetime.

[Paulclem]

No, I wouldn't. The measure is the value of the English pound. Now that the leaders of the European union robbed their own circulations, they are reacting by considering the elimination of the Euro. Highly unlikely. But are we English or Americans ever going to talk about the elimination of the dollar or the pound?
I know you people in England hate to be the little brothers, but we are doing well as such. Obviously. We are even consenting to the pound staying higher.

He's not talking about economics here. A society is much more than the value of their currency etc. It's one of the reasons westerners have difficulty understanding the Middle eastern countries and China.

A friend of mine has suggested that China won't worry about expansionism in the military sense - it has a deep histroy of besiegers at the door that goes back beyond Ghengis Khan. What they have done is secured their borders and repressed minorities in Tibet and the western provinces which have muslim populations.

What they are doing is securing economic influence in Africa, and develping strong financial and trade links with the west and the US. Their form of capitalism - which has a red basis, is proving to be successful despite the infrastructure and corruption problems suggested earlier.

[Paulclem]

Actually no. Or rather we should say that the technological and strategic advantage changed sides during the course of the war. The German tanks and the Blitzkrieg strategy caught the allies, still stuck in the WWI mentality of long drawn-out trench warfare, completely off guard. The Luftwaffe was armed with the Messerschmidt fighters that could run circles around anything the French, British, Americans, or Russians had. The Panzer and later the Tiger tanks put any allied armor to shame. The British, on the other hand, rules the waves with their navy, although the German submarine fleet proved highly effective here. The advantages that the allies had were threefold. First the United States was far to remote to be a target, allowing the vast American industrial complex to churn out weaponry completely without threat. Secondly, the Soviets bought time for the US to fully arm itself. Thirdly, the US recognized that it was he who controls the skies who controls the war. In contrast to the small German bombers by Junkers and Heinkel the US churned out heavy bombers such as the B-17 "Flying Fortress", the B-24 "Liberator" and the B-29 "Superfortress" as well as the British Avro Lancaster and Manchester. These planes were capable of traveling long distances and dropping huge payloads. They were heavily armed and armored and able to sustain repeated hits and still fly. They were also churned out in vast quantities. Finally the Americans and British developed fighters that far outclassed the Germans in terms of speed, maneuverability, and armaments by midway through the war. The only areas in which the German maintained technological superiority were in the developments of rockets and jets. Unfortunately the VI and VII rockets were of limited use and the rocket and jet fighters developed in the final days of the war were too little too late.

.

The point was made earlier about the US military tech such as stealth bombers etc. St Lukes is correct, and WWII was economically funded by the US, whose production capacity were unaffected by the course of the war, whereas the axis forces were not.

In terms of the rise of China, they may develop a greater economic capacity, and similarly overtake western tech in time.

[MarkBastable]

If you lived here, you might have a different attitude to things British. Personally, I have no illusions about the US and none about the UK either.

Oh, I think you do.

[JBI]

Of course, but to make an analogy.

Canada is like just one of the many street pushers. It doesn't care who is the big boss, nothing changes, it gets its dope, it sells it and it is happy.

But America, America is like Don Corleone, the top boss. Once you have felt what it is like to be on top of the world, anything less is bitter disappointment. But when you have been mediocre your entire life, you don't know what you have missed and thus cant ever be to sad about it.

I talk not in economic terms but in political terms, Canada is little more than what Iberia was for the Roman empire, just another protectorate. First for the British then for the Americans. But then again so is Europe. But Europe is like what Greece was in the Roman empire, simply more valued because of their prestigious history and cultural achievements.
Not really - when multinational businesses understand themselves, they do not think of country, but of profit.

Canada has an advantage in the world that the US does not, and somewhere like China does and will not - they have a disproportionate amount of resources in a world where economics still is determined by who has what to start with. Every time the US gets into a conflict with the OPEC members or whomever, the cost of gas inflates to Canada's economic advantage, not to our disadvantage.

Other players in the world matter more than the "big players" give credit. Politics is rather insignificant in comparison to borderless economics, which sees the same massive businesses ultimately disassociated from their country of origin. I doubt many people know they are buying from a Dutch company when they pump up at Shell, likewise, I doubt anyone cares that their Canadian-manufactured Toyota is a Japanese design, or that the construction equipment used to build their house was designed by Samsung or John Deere, or that the food they eat has gone through a million similar processes, down to the manufacturing of the plates and knives.

As for China and capitalism - they arrived at it far faster than the rest of the world, and had what historians compare to a fully functioning modern economy well before the Mongol invasion. The idea that they were even a truly communist country at all is being debated now, as many sectors are now being compared to mixed economies even in the glory days of the Maoist regime. That's for the historians to decide anyway, socialism existed in places, as it did in the Kibbutz movement in Israel, or the New Deal in the US.


The world has generally worked on a game of slave and master - the US capitalism system is designed on it. When the local slaves became too demanding, things moved over seas. Now there are a bunch of players from China who want to take over the big American bosses' roles of overseer over the Chinese slave population. That means that the profit margin of the slavers, those creating goods, is factoring in new Chinese players, and developing an American-like economy out of China.

Does that mean China can grow out of it? Maybe, but right now the strength of the country rests in the fact that a few super rich men control the world's greatest supply of exploited labour. Yet certain things are clear - Taiwan, for instance, has developed faster and more intelligently - they own much of Fujian, and Shenzhen and gain huge profits from being better slavers than their mainland ex-countrymen. Hong Kong businessmen were given exclusive slaving rights for years from the Western World due to stupid politics, and they instead monopolized this to rip off the entire world and turn a fishing village into a mega-city.

Will China be able to continue to grow? Yes, they have the slave power to do it - the railways they put up overnight are done with 24/7 cheap labour crews, and the shoes on your feet were probably made from a young adult poverty-wage earner near Wenzhou.

Does that mean they can become a modern, developed nation - not when their strength and power rests in the fact that ideas of development and modernization, and equality only are given to the non-slave class. That is, their advantage right now is that they are not developed, but have a developed manufacturing infrastructure.

[JBI]

He's not talking about economics here. A society is much more than the value of their currency etc. It's one of the reasons westerners have difficulty understanding the Middle eastern countries and China.

A friend of mine has suggested that China won't worry about expansionism in the military sense - it has a deep histroy of besiegers at the door that goes back beyond Ghengis Khan. What they have done is secured their borders and repressed minorities in Tibet and the western provinces which have muslim populations.

What they are doing is securing economic influence in Africa, and develping strong financial and trade links with the west and the US. Their form of capitalism - which has a red basis, is proving to be successful despite the infrastructure and corruption problems suggested earlier.

China also has an equally long history of imperialist expansion. We cry over Tibet in some parts of the world, but there is far more of a claim there than lets say, contemporary Kashgar, or much of Xin Jiang province itself, which was conquered in the same way that Korea was conquered by the Japanese.

Imperialism is not a new idea by any means, nor is it restricted to the West. There is a major famine in the Horn of Africa killing millions right now, and it for once isn't the West's fault, but rather the greedy players, predominately the Gulf players who have calculated more gains from themselves by exploiting the land and starving the population than feeding the people.

As for their success of economics - well, they are buying up all the dictators the same way Shell purchased Nigeria, or the US pumped up Zaire. Will it work? Probably, but God help those poor people because they are in for another round of Colonial Hell.

[Emil Miller]

Oh, I think you do.

The obvious corollary to that is do I care what you think? But since it's a rhetorical question, a reply would be superfluous.

[Paulclem]

China also has an equally long history of imperialist expansion. We cry over Tibet in some parts of the world, but there is far more of a claim there than lets say, contemporary Kashgar, or much of Xin Jiang province itself, which was conquered in the same way that Korea was conquered by the Japanese.


As for their success of economics - well, they are buying up all the dictators the same way Shell purchased Nigeria, or the US pumped up Zaire. Will it work? Probably, but God help those poor people because they are in for another round of Colonial Hell.

These places are still local and provide a conveniant border, as did Eastern Europe during the Soviet era. It is probably for strataegic rather than colonial economic reasons that they have taken over.

It seems they may be playing the subtle colonialist game you refer to in the borderless businesses. I agre that it won't be good for the people. The Chinese are ot known for their racial tolerance.

[cafolini]

The point was made earlier about the US military tech such as stealth bombers etc. St Lukes is correct, and WWII was economically funded by the US, whose production capacity were unaffected by the course of the war, whereas the axis forces were not.

In terms of the rise of China, they may develop a greater economic capacity, and similarly overtake western tech in time.

When you start talking about tech, you have to consider what specifically you are talking about. When you do that, you would realize that the Chinese would have to be magicians to overtake US and allied tech. It's economically impossible for that to happen. I already gave you enough information to do some good analysis. China will grow with the US as an allied. And regardless of all the mongering, helping China inegrate into the capitalist economy is the best move we made full force in the 21st century.

[Darcy88]

When you start talking about tech, you have to consider what specifically you are talking about. When you do that, you would realize that the Chinese would have to be magicians to overtake US and allied tech. It's economically impossible for that to happen. I already gave you enough information to do some good analysis. China will grow with the US as an allied. And regardless of all the mongering, helping China inegrate into the capitalist economy is the best move we made full force in the 21st century.

I'm sure the Greeks thought the same about those upstart Romans.

Great empires rise and fall. By all indications the American one is falling.

[Emil Miller]

The point was made earlier about the US military tech such as stealth bombers etc. St Lukes is correct, and WWII was economically funded by the US, whose production capacity were unaffected by the course of the war, whereas the axis forces were not.

In terms of the rise of China, they may develop a greater economic capacity, and similarly overtake western tech in time.

China's technological advance will depend on its economic progression which by any standards is spectacular. Here is an extract from an organisation that analyses foreign news items. Its significance for the US dollar cannot be ignored except by the most shortsighted of wishful thinkers.

Last year and for the first time, foreign companies (McDonald's, Caterpillar, Air liquide, the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank have issued their first bonds in Yuan. And now, China and Japan have agreed to increase trade in their respective currencies, the renminbi and the yen instead of the dollar. Tokyo will also purchase as early as 2012 yuan-denominated bonds.

[Paulclem]

China's technological advance will depend on its economic progression which by any standards is spectacular. Here is an extract from an organisation that analyses foreign news items. Its significance for the US dollar cannot be ignored except by the most shortsighted of wishful thinkers.

Last year and for the first time, foreign companies (McDonald's, Caterpillar, Air liquide, the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank have issued their first bonds in Yuan. And now, China and Japan have agreed to increase trade in their respective currencies, the renminbi and the yen instead of the dollar. Tokyo will also purchase as early as 2012 yuan-denominated bonds.

Thanks Emil - useful.

[Paulclem]

When you start talking about tech, you have to consider what specifically you are talking about. When you do that, you would realize that the Chinese would have to be magicians to overtake US and allied tech. It's economically impossible for that to happen. I already gave you enough information to do some good analysis. China will grow with the US as an allied. And regardless of all the mongering, helping China inegrate into the capitalist economy is the best move we made full force in the 21st century.

I'm not sure what specific information you've given me to make an assessment - oh yes IBM's back catalogue. Back catalogue. One thing China is good at is manufacturing its own versions of stuff. Anyway, Emil 's information just clarifies what economists have been talking about.

It's economically impossible for that to happen.

What we've got are reports by economists who predict - using solid economic measures - that China may overtake the US. On the other hand there's yourself who is doggedly resisting the mere idea of it without considering current thought.

It's not much of a choice I'm afraid.

[cafolini]

I'm not sure what specific information you've given me to make an assessment - oh yes IBM's back catalogue. Back catalogue. One thing China is good at is manufacturing its own versions of stuff. Anyway, Emil 's information just clarifies what economists have been talking about.

It's economically impossible for that to happen.

What we've got are reports by economists who predict - using solid economic measures - that China may overtake the US. On the other hand there's yourself who is doggedly resisting the mere idea of it without considering current thought.

It's not much of a choice I'm afraid.

IBM receives royalties from uses of its technology in China. The Chinese were and are implementors of the technology, not the inventors. As it is today with many many other technologies. I always have to close the case so as to not go in circles with you. That's it.

[MystyrMystyry]

Didn't want to get involved in this, but China's foreign and internal economic policy is definitely being moulded in the shape of America's. A couple of centuries ago the U.S. developed its own silver weight so to maintain a trade imbalance (any goods bought were never fully paid for upon arrival of the payment - a perfect cheat). A few years ago a shipment of gold bullion to China was found by the suspicious Chinese to be merely gold-plated tungsten, which a bit of investigation had led to the discovery that this is the same standard of 'gold' held in Fort Knox, and in fact the currency all foreign payments are made - an eighth of what's owing.

Last year a consortium of Australian farmers bought a shipment of government sanctioned 'high grade soil' from the Chinese mainland - yep, a shipload of average dirt from a building site. When declared the Chinese made up the difference with a shipment of 'American gold' (worth even less than the original dirt).

Ah we're in for interesting times...

[cafolini]

Didn't want to get involved in this, but China's foreign and internal economic policy is definitely being moulded in the shape of America's. A couple of centuries ago the U.S. developed its own silver weight so to maintain a trade imbalance (any goods bought were never fully paid for upon arrival of the payment - a perfect cheat). A few years ago a shipment of gold bullion to China was found by the suspicious Chinese to be merely gold-plated tungsten, which a bit of investigation had led to the discovery that this is the same standard of 'gold' held in Fort Knox, and in fact the currency all foreign payments are made - an eighth of what's owing.

Last year a consortium of Australian farmers bought a shipment of government sanctioned 'high grade soil' from the Chinese mainland - yep, a shipload of average dirt from a building site. When declared the Chinese made up the difference with a shipment of 'American gold' (worth even less than the original dirt).

Ah we're in for interesting times...

That came through the National Inquirer.

[MystyrMystyry]

My words? I got them from all over the internet.

[Darcy88]

IBM receives royalties from uses of its technology in China. The Chinese were and are implementors of the technology, not the inventors. As it is today with many many other technologies. I always have to close the case so as to not go in circles with you. That's it.

America's manufacturing base has essentially ceased to meaningfully exist. China's is roaring at a pace and scale never before seen. The ball is in their court. America is on the wane.

[KCurtis]

If you lived here, you might have a different attitude to things British. Personally, I have no illusions about the US and none about the UK either.
Oh I know. I don't think I have illusions about the UK, nor my own country. But I love both all the same. Yes, I love our democracies- call them terrible, but it's better than the alternatives. There is no utopia.

[Paulclem]

IBM receives royalties from uses of its technology in China. The Chinese were and are implementors of the technology, not the inventors. As it is today with many many other technologies. I always have to close the case so as to not go in circles with you. That's it.

Why wouldn't they. I haven't said they invented the IBM stuff. I - again - said they registered more patents.

The writing seems to be on the...forum.

That's it. Is it? .....er......

[Paulclem]

Oh I know. I don't think I have illusions about the UK, nor my own country. But I love both all the same. Yes, I love our democracies- call them terrible, but it's better than the alternatives. There is no utopia.

I like the UK. There's a lot going for it. Faded as we are, beset with the old boy system, and a national character that regards upbeat as flamboyant - I like it. It has a sense of humour.

Fro what I see of the US on here, it seems to as well.

[MystyrMystyry]

Sorry - the first part of my post was obviously a conspiracy theory: just trying to inject a sense of futility to predictions about the future, something which has proved impossible time and again.

I do know that the Chinese are not only renowned for their resource in creating counterfeit products, but that many choose to go to a counterfeiter to obtain a better quality product than produced by the reputable manufacturer. Place an order for a fake iphone and specify that you'd like it to also feature AM, CB, emergency and police band, and shortwave radio, full television reception and a walky talky - voila! Try to get the same from Apple and you'll receive "No demand for it..."

There's a carousel nearby where I could purchase a gold-plated stainless steel ring for a fiver (no working parts = nothing to go wrong) - or I can go to Made-In-China and buy a hundred of them for a twenty including postage. The same if made in Australia (or America) would be twenty per ring postage extra. There is a trick to the Chinese though, wherein they'll mark the parcel as 'Toy Jewelery' to circumvent customs duty.

Watches, hats, sunglasses, greeting cards, phone cases, you name it - armed with this knowledge you may begin your own carousel and before you know it expand into a chain store. America's not going anywhere anytime soon - it needs China exactly where it is so it can keep an eye on it.

[Emil Miller]

Oh I know. I don't think I have illusions about the UK, nor my own country. But I love both all the same. Yes, I love our democracies- call them terrible, but it's better than the alternatives. There is no utopia.

There is nothing wrong with democracies until they start trying to be all things to all men. At which point they become 'liberal' democracies and bring about their own destruction.

[cafolini]

America's manufacturing base has essentially ceased to meaningfully exist. China's is roaring at a pace and scale never before seen. The ball is in their court. America is on the wane.

America has a lot more manufacturing than you imagine. Also, we are a highly developed research center and we have the technologies built on that research. China has very little comparatively speaking. And naturally it has implementation. But not nearly as much as America for the most advanced stuff. What are you talking about? Nonsense.

[KCurtis]

I like the UK. There's a lot going for it. Faded as we are, beset with the old boy system, and a national character that regards upbeat as flamboyant - I like it. It has a sense of humour.

Fro what I see of the US on here, it seems to as well.

A sense of humor is exactly it!! Where would I be without John Cleese and his silly walks!! Laughing less.
The humor is different- British is more direct and silly, I think. I adore it. I love being in London, though I feel like I am a loud person there. We tend to shout more here.

[cafolini]

There is nothing wrong with democracies until they start trying to be all things to all men. At which point they become 'liberal' democracies and bring about their own destruction.

Ridiculous. We are solicited all over the world. We are not trying to be all things to all men. But we were in 1945 forcedly. And will be again if necessary to kick ash to preserve freedom.

[KCurtis]

Ridiculous. We are solicited all over the world. We are not trying to be all things to all men. But we were in 1945 forcedly. And will be again if necessary to kick ash to preserve freedom.
:grouphug: Yes, if it wasn't for us in 1945........
Democracy will prevail, I am convinced.

[cafolini]

A sense of humor is exactly it!! Where would I be without John Cleese and his silly walks!! Laughing less.
The humor is different- British is more direct and silly, I think. I adore it. I love being in London, though I feel like I am a loud person there. We tend to shout more here.

Don't be so sure. These chaps have Shakes Peares.

[Darcy88]

Ridiculous. We are solicited all over the world. We are not trying to be all things to all men. But we were in 1945 forcedly. And will be again if necessary to kick ash to preserve freedom.

America preserving freedom? Now who is talking nonsense? All hail Bush!

Also, the manufacturing has gone over to China and the R&D shall soon follow as well.

[Emil Miller]

America has a lot more manufacturing than you imagine. Also, we are a highly developed research center and we have the technologies built on that research. China has very little comparatively speaking. And naturally it has implementation. But not nearly as much as America for the most advanced stuff. What are you talking about? Nonsense.

Yes, it's true that the US does still have a lot of manufacturing capacity, but it's equally true that the centre of production is shifting to the East and has been since the end of WW11 at precisely the moment when the US, having won the war, thought that it was on a roll that would last forever Almost as soon as the war ended, Japan started to produce imitation goods based on famous western brands, Then, having established itself as a major producer, began to manufacture goods equivalent to those of the USA and Europe and eventually rose to challenge them as the world's number one economic power. They overreached themselves and the result is still being felt in Japan today but China, having seen what happened to Japan, are treading very carefully amid the scenario of a downgraded US economy and failing Eurozone.

[cafolini]

Yes, it's true that the US does still have a lot of manufacturing capacity, but it's equally true that the centre of production is shifting to the East and has been since the end of WW11 at precisely the moment when the US, having won the war, thought that it was on a roll that would last forever Almost as soon as the war ended, Japan started to produce imitation goods based on famous western brands, Then, having established itself as a major producer, began to manufacture goods equivalent to those of the USA and Europe and eventually rose to challenge them as the world's number one economic power. They overreached themselves and the result is still being felt in Japan today but China, having seen what happened to Japan, are treading very carefully amid the scenario of a downgraded US economy and failing Eurozone.

We'll leave it at that. I said anything I had to say.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Speaking as an American, I'm glad we may no longer be the empirical power we once were. I never wanted to be an empire, and no one I know wanted to either. America, like everywhere else, is mostly comprised of people just trying to live comfortably, and help their families live comfortably. Our world status doesn't mean much ... it doesn't to me, at least. It's a game played by the most powerful of the powerful policiticans that I have absolutely no control over. If I can have clothes, food, shelter, and medical necessities (the last of which seems to be more and more difficult), I'm a happy camper. I know some politicians would have us believe that our world status makes a difference in all this, but I think that's a bunch of BS. If that's the case, than why are other countries, usually ones that seem to do nothing but mind thier own business, rank higher when it comes to quality of life?

Another country superseding us as a world power doesn't mean much to the common man. Let someone else **** up the world for a while.

[stlukesguild]

I am continually amazed at just how ignorant of history many here can be... considering that this is a site where the members in theory have read a bit. I my own life-time, as a child, I remember similar proclamations of the demise of the US and the rise of Japan. It's like listening to Chicken Little running about declaring that "the sky is falling". Within my parents... and more-so my grandparents memory the US... and most of the West (with the rest of the world following behind) underwent the Great Depression which makes our current financial debacle seem like a mere bump in the road. There was talk then of the ascendancy of Japan and Germany and weakness of the Western democracies that were rotten through to the core. Funny how that turned out.

I suspect that the majority of such doomsday predictions owes to a rather adolescent mentality that assumes the unique or special status of us and our times over all of the rest of history. This combined with the contemporary embrace of the victim status leads many to run about gladly embracing the latest doomsday predictions without sitting back and taking any real stock of the situation.

Just how much effort and wealth will it take before China is able to construct an infrastructure tying the nation together... bringing the majority of its population out of the 15th century... not even the 19th century? How freely will China be able to assert itself with the former Soviet Union to the North and West, India to the South West, and such growing world powers as Korea and Japan to all contend with?

Don't get me wrong, the US is facing some serious challenges. Perhaps worst of these are the Conservative extremists who are essentially making a last gasp attempt at consolidating control control over a nation that clearly no longer is what they imagined it once was: a lily-white, Christian, conservative nation in which it is the picket fence-lined little towns of the heartland that represent the "true" America... not the great economic machinery of the seedy cities crawling with people with accents and dark skin. I laugh to watch the moronic politicians giving out subsidies to corporations and tax abatements to the upper-middle-class in order to entice them to move into the distant suburbs... while watching nations like Japan and Korea and China growing largely on the basis of the productivity of their great cities.

Yet the US still remains THE destination for immigrants... for the simple reason that they recognize they can start with nothing and succeed through self-motivation. The immigrants, quite contrary to what our moronic politicians would have us believe, have long been among our greatest assets. This is something that our neighbor to the North has recognized as their economy has grown a great deal as a result of immigration. The great superpowers have always thrived upon the influx of foreign labor, motivation, and ideas. This is something China itself recognizes, as it thrives with foreign investment and foreign ideas. Comically, we would turn ourselves into a hermetic nation with barbed wire fences and "No foreigners need apply" signs at our businesses and in our schools.

[stlukesguild]

Speaking as an American, I'm glad we may no longer be the empirical power we once were. I never wanted to be an empire, and no one I know wanted to either. America, like everywhere else, is mostly comprised of people just trying to live comfortably, and help their families live comfortably. Our world status doesn't mean much ... it doesn't to me, at least. It's a game played by the most powerful of the powerful policiticans that I have absolutely no control over. If I can have clothes, food, shelter, and medical necessities (the last of which seems to be more and more difficult), I'm a happy camper. I know some politicians would have us believe that our world status makes a difference in all this, but I think that's a bunch of BS. If that's the case, than why are other countries, usually ones that seem to do nothing but mind thier own business, rank higher when it comes to quality of life?

Another country superseding us as a world power doesn't mean much to the common man. Let someone else **** up the world for a while.

Indeed! And certainly we shall reach the point where eventually the torch will be passed on to another world power... although I highly suspect this will be a far longer drawn-out process than the doomsayers imagine. The situation immediately following WWII was wholly unsustainable, based as it was upon the US existing as the sole intact economic superpower in the world. Over the years Germany has rebuilt itself, as have France, Britain, Japan, Korea, etc... Now China is rising... along with India, some of the nations of the Middle-East and South America. Is our standard of living really to be based solely upon our living in luxury while the rest of the world lives in poverty? Has the reconstruction of Japan, Germany, Korea, Britain, France, etc... really resulted in a decline in the standard of living for Americans? I surely haven't seen as much. Indeed, I suspect many of our French and British and Japanese members will admit that the standard of living in Britain and France and Japan is better now than it was when their nations were the far greater military/economic superpowers.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Don't get me wrong, the US is facing some serious challenges. Perhaps worst of these are the Conservative extremists who are essentially making a last gasp attempt at consolidating control control over a nation that clearly no longer is what they imagined it once was: a lily-white, Christian, conservative nation in which it is the picket fence-lined little towns of the heartland that represent the "true" America... not the great economic machinery of the seedy cities crawling with people with accents and dark skin. I laugh to watch the moronic politicians giving out subsidies to corporations and tax abatements to the upper-middle-class in order to entice them to move into the distant suburbs... while watching nations like Japan and Korea and China growing largely on the basis of the productivity of their great cities.

Yet the US still remains THE destination for immigrants... for the simple reason that they recognize they can start with nothing and succeed through self-motivation. The immigrants, quite contrary to what our moronic politicians would have us believe, have long been among our greatest assets. This is something that our neighbor to the North has recognized as their economy has grown a great deal as a result of immigration. The great superpowers have always thrived upon the influx of foreign labor, motivation, and ideas. This is something China itself recognizes, as it thrives with foreign investment and foreign ideas. Comically, we would turn ourselves into a hermetic nation with barbed wire fences and "No foreigners need apply" signs at our businesses and in our schools.
:hurray: Just had to applaud this two paragraphs.

[JBI]

:hurray: Just had to applaud this two paragraphs.

Nah, time will tell, Rome didn't fall to its superiors. In a matter of 50 years, the Han Dynasty of China went from the greatest civilization on the planet to a ruin where 70 percent of the population would die out within a 100 year period.

The great Tang dynasty in a 10 year period went similar depopulation and destruction, as did the Incas, and the Americas themselves, hit with a bomb.

The idea that time is slow or fast will be determined by the undetermined. That the US is the centre of the world though, is another debatable thing. The strength of the US remains in the fact that it has a disproportionately large economy. That perhaps may change faster than one thinks, as new players develop and the centrality of the US in the world declines considerably, which is happening now.

[KCurtis]

America preserving freedom? Now who is talking nonsense? All hail Bush!

Also, the manufacturing has gone over to China and the R&D shall soon follow as well.

I am so sick of Bush bashing- his fault for everything under the sun. I've moved on, so should you.

[KCurtis]

For all those who want China as the next super power, good luck to you. Happy New Year!!
A thought to ponder- have you ever met any Chinese who left Red China to get to the safety of Taiwan, and then move on to the U.S. when the threat of China was again looming over Taiwan? I have. And they have become very very prosperous here. We need more like THEM.

[Paulclem]

For all those who want China as the next super power, good luck to you. Happy New Year!!
A thought to ponder- have you ever met any Chinese who left Red China to get to the safety of Taiwan, and then move on to the U.S. when the threat of China was again looming over Taiwan? I have. And they have become very very prosperous here. We need more like THEM.

As the OP, I'd just like to clarify that I posted the thread in response to an article I read in the Times. The prediction is speculative, and I wondered what you all thought of the possibility.

[mortalterror]

Of course, but to make an analogy.

Canada is like just one of the many street pushers. It doesn't care who is the big boss, nothing changes, it gets its dope, it sells it and it is happy.

But America, America is like Don Corleone, the top boss. Once you have felt what it is like to be on top of the world, anything less is bitter disappointment. But when you have been mediocre your entire life, you don't know what you have missed and thus cant ever be to sad about it.

I talk not in economic terms but in political terms, Canada is little more than what Iberia was for the Roman empire, just another protectorate. First for the British then for the Americans. But then again so is Europe. But Europe is like what Greece was in the Roman empire, simply more valued because of their prestigious history and cultural achievements.

What an excellent analogy. Bravo, Alexander.

[JBI]

For all those who want China as the next super power, good luck to you. Happy New Year!!
A thought to ponder- have you ever met any Chinese who left Red China to get to the safety of Taiwan, and then move on to the U.S. when the threat of China was again looming over Taiwan? I have. And they have become very very prosperous here. We need more like THEM.

I have met them, as well as those who remained in "Red China". The Cold War is over, there are already 2million Taiwanese people living in Shanghai alone.

Besides which, Taiwan is a polarized society, with those who were born on the mainland 外生人 being seen by many as a sort of colonizing force. Chang Kai Shiek is not so well liked on the island as you may imagine.

[mortalterror]

I am continually amazed at just how ignorant of history many here can be... considering that this is a site where the members in theory have read a bit. I my own life-time, as a child, I remember similar proclamations of the demise of the US and the rise of Japan. It's like listening to Chicken Little running about declaring that "the sky is falling". Within my parents... and more-so my grandparents memory the US... and most of the West (with the rest of the world following behind) underwent the Great Depression which makes our current financial debacle seem like a mere bump in the road. There was talk then of the ascendancy of Japan and Germany and weakness of the Western democracies that were rotten through to the core. Funny how that turned out.

I suspect that the majority of such doomsday predictions owes to a rather adolescent mentality that assumes the unique or special status of us and our times over all of the rest of history. This combined with the contemporary embrace of the victim status leads many to run about gladly embracing the latest doomsday predictions without sitting back and taking any real stock of the situation.

Just how much effort and wealth will it take before China is able to construct an infrastructure tying the nation together... bringing the majority of its population out of the 15th century... not even the 19th century? How freely will China be able to assert itself with the former Soviet Union to the North and West, India to the South West, and such growing world powers as Korea and Japan to all contend with?

Don't get me wrong, the US is facing some serious challenges. Perhaps worst of these are the Conservative extremists who are essentially making a last gasp attempt at consolidating control control over a nation that clearly no longer is what they imagined it once was: a lily-white, Christian, conservative nation in which it is the picket fence-lined little towns of the heartland that represent the "true" America... not the great economic machinery of the seedy cities crawling with people with accents and dark skin. I laugh to watch the moronic politicians giving out subsidies to corporations and tax abatements to the upper-middle-class in order to entice them to move into the distant suburbs... while watching nations like Japan and Korea and China growing largely on the basis of the productivity of their great cities.

Yet the US still remains THE destination for immigrants... for the simple reason that they recognize they can start with nothing and succeed through self-motivation. The immigrants, quite contrary to what our moronic politicians would have us believe, have long been among our greatest assets. This is something that our neighbor to the North has recognized as their economy has grown a great deal as a result of immigration. The great superpowers have always thrived upon the influx of foreign labor, motivation, and ideas. This is something China itself recognizes, as it thrives with foreign investment and foreign ideas. Comically, we would turn ourselves into a hermetic nation with barbed wire fences and "No foreigners need apply" signs at our businesses and in our schools.

I don't think it's accurate to say that America has been a world power for the last hundred years because of it's immigration policy. I think that it has been powerful because it has been quick to respond to modern inventions. When trains were invented we built a lot of railroads. When Ford invented the car we built a lot of roads. When the Wright brothers invented airplanes we built airports. We move a lot of things around. We did the same with information technology. We adopted telegraphs, telephones, radios, television, computers, satellites, and the internet before other nations did and thus gained an advantage. We developed indoor plumbing, electricity, and plastics early on. We were able to do all of this because we had a superior banking system that insured that capital circulated freely. Think back. This has always been the case.

[Emil Miller]

I don't think it's accurate to say that America has been a world power for the last hundred years because of it's immigration policy. I think that it has been powerful because it has been quick to respond to modern inventions. When trains were invented we built a lot of railroads. When Ford invented the car we built a lot of roads. When the Wright brothers invented airplanes we built airports. We move a lot of things around. We did the same with information technology. We adopted telegraphs, telephones, radios, television, computers, satellites, and the internet before other nations did and thus gained an advantage. We developed indoor plumbing, electricity, and plastics early on. We were able to do all of this because we had a superior banking system that insured that capital circulated freely. Think back. This has always been the case.

This is partly true but, setting aside that it was a German, Karl Benz, who invented the car, American innovation went hand in hand with the opening up of the continent and the spread westwards, but without immigrant labour from Europe the infrastructure would not have been achieved. You are right, however, in pointing out that it wasn't only immigration that brought the USA to the forefront of world powers as some politicians would like us to believe. The then American banking system was, as you say, just as big a factor in the rise of the US as any other.

[KCurtis]

I have met them, as well as those who remained in "Red China". The Cold War is over, there are already 2million Taiwanese people living in Shanghai alone.

Besides which, Taiwan is a polarized society, with those who were born on the mainland 外生人 being seen by many as a sort of colonizing force. Chang Kai Shiek is not so well liked on the island as you may imagine.

You put Red China in quotes, but it is still that.

[Emil Miller]

You put Red China in quotes, but it is still that.

If by' red' you mean communism, you can forget it. Communism was merely a sprat to catch a mackerel or a means to unify China. Once that unification had been achieved and consolidated, China was on the path to return to its former place as the major world power. You can forget democracy, which has no place in the Chinese scheme of things, despite the wishful thinking of western liberals. With one fifth of the world's population to control, China needs democracy like a hole in the head. The communist party of China is simply a group whose purpose is to ensure that the country achieves its historic role as the world's foremost economic and military power.

[KCurtis]

If by' red' you mean communism, you can forget it. Communism was merely a sprat to catch a mackerel or a means to unify China. Once that unification had been achieved and consolidated, China was on the path to return to its former place as the major world power. You can forget democracy, which has no place in the Chinese scheme of things, despite the wishful thinking of western liberals. With one fifth of the world's population to control, China needs democracy like a hole in the head. The communist party of China is simply a group whose purpose is to ensure that the country achieves its historic role as the world's foremost economic and military power.

Yes by "red" I mean communism. And China treats it's people like communist governments do- like crap. No freedom there, not at all. Their economic power and the way they treat their people are two different issues. If they make it appear otherwise, it is propaganda. They don't know anything about democracy. They bulldoze their own people to death.

[JBI]

Yes by "red" I mean communism. And China treats it's people like communist governments do- like crap. No freedom there, not at all. Their economic power and the way they treat their people are two different issues. If they make it appear otherwise, it is propaganda. They don't know anything about democracy. They bulldoze their own people to death.

And you have witnessed this firsthand? Honestly, I mentioned before, I have a rather educated perception on the subject of China at least, having lived there and having made a career out of studying its history.

As a comparison, the US has a rather dark history of mistreatment of its citizens, or "citizens" or "slaves" that is completely in keeping with both democracy and capitalism.

As for Red, well, they have never truly been communist, except in patches, the broken snippets of propaganda history fed to generations of Westerners are but scratches on the surface of more complex social movements. Italy would be a far better example of having a communist presence, and Czech Rep. even more so, and I do not hear "Red Czech" being thrown around whenever someone discusses tourism.

If one is trained to see something in some way by that something, could they not as easily be trained by something else to view that something? for instance, China is promoting itself as one thing, the US is promoting China as another. One need only look at representations of Chinese over the years to realize how ridiculous perceptions of others can be. As a better example, watch any representation of either yellow face or black face.


As for democracy - In Canada we regard the American democracy as a nonsensical bunch of crap. I would assume more democratic people, like the Swiss would even regard the Canadian system as too restrictive (as do many Canadians). The Chinese are not democratic in their decision making. As for prospects of democracy, to quote a professor of mine who is an expert on the subject, "No chance." But that is not the point. One can be capitalist without being democratic, as the Americans have traditionally shown with the weird form of pseudo democracy practiced there, or the American backed capitalist regimes.

Mobutu was a fierce anti-communist, one must remember, and Western backed almost to the end. The "Nationalists" who landed in Taiwan basically conquered and imposed a form of fascism that is still being felt in many areas of society, though martial law has been lifted within recent decades. South Korea was under a US backed fascist government until recently as well, when a serious of coincidences, and the assassination of General Park led to a power crisis only resolvable by a polarized election or civil war.

Japan has had the same people in the Diet except in recent years as had been ruling the country since before World War 2. When the US decided to reverse its policy after the war, and side with war criminals over the fear of "communism" these guys literally came out of prison and into parliament.


Shall I go on?

You seem to know nothing of history, the region itself, economics, political science, or China.

And no, I am not an apologist. And in fact, I would be more happy if China was more socialist than it currently is, as I personally hold Mao to have been one of the greatest advocates of social change within a warped caste system.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

As for democracy - In Canada we regard the American democracy as a nonsensical bunch of crap.

While I might not put it in such harsh terms, I agree, but I'm wondering what the Canadian reasons are, and if they are the same?

[Varenne Rodin]

We need Chinese people to post on these forums and weigh in with their thoughts. Then I think America and China should hug it out. "Xoxoxo, China. I love you (from America)."

[BienvenuJDC]

We need Chinese people to post on these forums and weigh in with their thoughts. Then I think America and China should hug it out. "Xoxoxo, China. I love you (from America)."

Agreed.
How is it that China will "overtake" the US anyway? Is there some kind of competition going on here? If China does overtake the US...whatever that means...I hope that the people of China benefit from it.

[Paulclem]

Agreed.
How is it that China will "overtake" the US anyway? Is there some kind of competition going on here? If China does overtake the US...whatever that means...I hope that the people of China benefit from it.

It is a prediction by economists. I started the thread after reading a revision of forecasts that said due to the current economic crises, China could overtake the US in economic terms by 2018.

I wondered what people thought of that.

[ralfyman]

More details from the Goldman Sachs study about BRIC and emerging markets, but there's also peak oil.

[JBI]

We need Chinese people to post on these forums and weigh in with their thoughts. Then I think America and China should hug it out. "Xoxoxo, China. I love you (from America)."

You'll find educated Chinese people have only a set of phrases for answering these questions that are all the same and boring. If, for instance, any non-Chinese person even mentions the name Taiwan in Mainland China, there is an almost automatic response from Chinese people which says, "It is ours." The irony is that in contrast, as economics are showing more of the mainland is Taiwan's than vice versa, and that defeats the point - I wanted to talk tourism not politics, but they know less to nothing about the world outside the city they live. Even the Chinese perception of China is limited, and the population then only reveal their real sentiments to close friends.

As for Chinese people abroad - that is the most messed up of the lot, I will take Toronto, for example. Most people coming here are from Hong Kong, with a negative image of China, and a self-superior image of themselves, or are rich mainlanders who hold their roots to be wonderful, yet clearly moved away for something - the student population which funds all our universities is even more mediocre, as for the most part they have this idea that they were accepted to a university better than the one they got into in China for some reason other than that they pay 5X+ as much as Native born Canadians.

You cannot get a real opinion from anyone who is part of the tier that screws up the country - so basically anybody who has gone abroad. The only real perception of the country itself comes from people who are essentially unvoiced anywhere, and are often so uneducated that they do not even realize that other countries are more prosperous. I had a long discussion with a construction worker on a train, and when I told him what his job would get him in Toronto, he nearly died - compare that to working in 40degree heat 15 hours a day.

But how then can you judge any of this? how can you know anything of a place which selectively publishes? Even the weather is reported several degrees lower than it is to deny civil workers the right to stay home. It's a messed up game trying to figure out where things sit, and it doesn't help that almost everyone involved false under 3 umbrellas.

1) people with incentive to promote China - the Chinese government is a great funder of its own propaganda across the world. Worse off, if you publish anything bad, you simply are not able to return to China.
2) people who are from there, who ultimately make the process of real discussion stupid, and use the same argument, (you are not Chinese so how can you know) to try and defend basic issues that are common not just to China. This type is the worst, because its like talking to an aristocrat who is yelling at you that you are not rich so how can you discuss the poor.
3)More nuanced opinions that ultimately fail to take a stand, as they are dealing with fragmentary information, and are unpublishable. These are usually authors who are banned from and in China, and are unpublishable from any press that is associated with China (much of printing is done overseas). Even then, they also lose funding from universities, foundations and other places as they go against an agenda that seeks approval from China itself - the Chinese government for instance.

Within China the US is made to look like a failure country who are rich but stupid, and are letting China win. Both countries have way to strong a sense of the state of the nation, and not the state of the individual, so when American money goes down, or Obama meets Hu Jintao in Honolulu and gets told off, the Chinese celebrate, and the US don't report it. China when the actual numbers show them to be the biggest economy in the world will call themselves the number one country in the world and flaunt it, meanwhile 1billion of their 1.4 billion will be living in wage slavery or worse conditions, and aging, lack of healthcare, and a disgusting environment will be ignored as much as the fact that the US population is 1/5 their own, and therefore to be number one, they need to increase their market share proportionately to their size of population (per capita GDP or GNP rather than raw GDP or GNP).

As for all these new books, articles, etc. Don't even bother. They have never reported anything really worth reading, really accurate, or really well researched. I am yet to hear one of them even mention the word HuKou, for instance, which is synonymous I would argue with caste. Nor will they ever mention the fact that a Beijing university graduate makes on average less than 3000RMB a month, whereas rent in Beijing is similar to that of western countries, and inflation is moving faster than their growth rate. Nor will they mention that the education system there is completely worthless, and that every single sever or shop clerk in Beijing has a university degree.

But no, we remade the Karate Kid as an advertisement for how good China is (the actual places visited in the new movie aren't even real, ironically). We watched the Olympics and bought into the nonsense. And we waste time reading these stupid books about the rise of the Dragon, when we should be reading books called The Kissing of the Dragon's A$$.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, that's just good old fashioned orientalism. We westerners like our cozy, stereotypical image of Chinese people--they're wise, they know karate, and they're very mystical. We don't care how much that conflicts with reality; too many people like crappy Karate Kid movies.

[JBI]

Well, that's just good old fashioned orientalism. We westerners like our cozy, stereotypical image of Chinese people--they're wise, they know karate, and they're very mystical. We don't care how much that conflicts with reality; too many people like crappy Karate Kid movies.

It's far more complex than anything Edward Said imagined. Cultural perceptions can be bought and sold by governments. In the next 5 years we will all be taught to worship Chinese people.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I didn't say Said's ideas were the sole reason for the current state of things (I was mostly referring to your last paragraph), just part of it in terms of western perceptions of eastern (in this case Chinese). I don't really see how the American government has "bought or sold" our image of Chinese culture. I would put the most blame on Hollywood.

[Varenne Rodin]

The newest Karate Kid movie is completely unwatchable. That Will Smith kid is a scary mutant. He looked far too young to understand romance or anything else, and it seemed like they were trying to have him get cozy with the little girl in the movie. I watched less than five minutes of it.

I do like kung fu a lot. I really appreciate some of the dedication and discipline that go into conditioning the human body to such skill levels. I like some of their goofy funny media too. I understand that sinister things happen, and that the flow of information is censored, restrained. Still and all, there are some decent people living in China and decent people have come out of it.

My friend Lan came from China with her family. In school we competed for top honors. She was a cruel competitor. Highly skilled and condescending, it's true, but sweet and charming in all other areas. It didn't seem like they left China for anything other than a business opportunity.

When I asked her if she liked America, she said "Of course. I am here." I don't seek to glorify the country, but it really isn't all bad. They aren't subhuman and they aren't any more moronic as a society than America is.

[mortalterror]

Eh, could be worse. Some insignificant backwater like North Korea or Canada could become a world power and then we'd all have to pretend to care about their culture and politics.

[Emil Miller]

“ It didn't seem like they left China for anything other than a business opportunity.”

Which graphically highlights the role reversal that's taking place, because many looking for a business opportunity today are beating a path to China.

[JBI]

“ It didn't seem like they left China for anything other than a business opportunity.”

Which graphically highlights the role reversal that's taking place, because many looking for a business opportunity today are beating a path to China.

No, they are beating a path to someone who legally can get them into China. The actual China market place is restricted to those with power - originally it was Hong Kong businessmen, Wenzhou businessmen, and to an extent other areas of China. Now it is a ruling class that legally has the sanction to own things foreign passport holders cannot. If you are buying shoes anywhere in the world, chances are, unless they are some weird freak item, they have gone through a very small circle of Wenzhou merchants, who have taken the bulk of the profit and shipped them to bidders like Nike or whomever.

The move overseas is actually a massive one. There is a sort of racist chauvinism articulated through the buying and selling of raw resources, and things like women and concubines that controls wealth in the mainland and in the peripheral places doing business with the mainland. All the major players seem to know each other, and seem to be married to each other - if one of them moves into a different class, as they say, out go all their friends, as they no longer can associate.

To get in, you pretty much need to buy your way in, or marry your way in, or be born in. The circle which controls much of Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan, parts of Mainland China, Singapore and other regions is dominated by such new aristocratic playing. Part of moving somewhere like Toronto originally was an escape from the fact that these people are corrupt beyond safe measures - the entertainment business in Hong Kong, for instance, is dominated by factions of rich conglomerates and families, as well as triad and rivaling mafia and criminal entities who make rather than promote celebrities.

Moving to other countries is hardly the fact, and the irony is that massive numbers have moved back since the Canadian system gave them absolutely no advantage in the playing field - no job opportunities, and rarely anything substantial for their children, as the education system in Canada is not as easy to buy into as in the States (our schools are almost exclusively public ones with tuition of around 6000USD).

The globalized world requires a hold, and such new forms of colonialism rarely work. Certain grounds are better for such investment, but it was discovered Toronto wasn't as effective as somewhere like Vancouver, where the Mafia pretty much took over and control massive amounts of gro-ops for pricey British Colombian marijuana. The irony is, with so much freedom comes factions that end up killing each other, hence why more people just move to escape the chaos.

Orientalism is a very shamish theory that victimizes more than it discusses. Discourse uses it as a platform, but we have gone beyond it already. The glory days of putting I am a marxist feminist post-colonial scholar and landing a tenure track position and Columbia are over. Said has some good points, but the very name is ignorant, as it deliberately dodges a more interesting phenomenon of representation that isn't just east seeing west, but people seeing each other (what we call perspectives, or opinions).

Besides which, I am not even Western by Said's definition. The whole thing is ridiculous apologetics and misnaming of simple phenomenon that occur whenever there is any form of hegemony, regardless of geography.

The Chinese colonial history is as pronounced as any Western nation. That explains the extensive communities which are racially divided in southeast Asia, particularly the Philippines and Indonesia, but also Thailand, Vietnam, and others - there is a colonialism there, and there is a clear racialism, where hundreds of years later people still have not lost either language or culture, let alone mixed into the common genetic pool.

[JBI]

Eh, could be worse. Some insignificant backwater like North Korea or Canada could become a world power and then we'd all have to pretend to care about their culture and politics.

Meh, We know far less about North Korea than we think. As it is, the rise of South Korea has brought tons of funding from the Korea Foundation for promotion of what we soft imperialism - that is, if you review anything related to Korean cultural capital favorably - those tedious soap operas for example, or tourism - you are guaranteed ridiculous funding. China is doing something similar. IT is not just the US that cares about cultural politics - countries, especially emerging ones with too much cash - sell images of themselves to the world, and likewise receptors recreate new images - the balance lies in money, acceptance, and experience. Most people have not been to China, and most people who have have not seen most of China. We rely on sold and bought images for our opinions - we have a discussion here about the rise of China, but how much of the discussion is rooted in personal experience - what isn't just second hand propaganda from either side being reorganized.

[Emil Miller]

No, they are beating a path to someone who legally can get them into China.

Yes I am aware that the Chinese restrict the extent to which foreigners are able to do business there; in fact, it is a major feature of discussion in the western financial media, even the issuance of shares in Chinese companies favours the Chinese by giving them preference. It is clear that they are not going to let control of their finances go to any other racial group than themselves. Nevertheless, it is still very worthwhile for western companies to gain whatever foothold they can in such a potentially lucrative market.

[BienvenuJDC]

I am always amazed at how much some people know about everything.

[KCurtis]

And you have witnessed this firsthand? Honestly, I mentioned before, I have a rather educated perception on the subject of China at least, having lived there and having made a career out of studying its history.

As a comparison, the US has a rather dark history of mistreatment of its citizens, or "citizens" or "slaves" that is completely in keeping with both democracy and capitalism.

Shall I go on?

You seem to know nothing of history, the region itself, economics, political science, or China.

And no, I am not an apologist. And in fact, I would be more happy if China was more socialist than it currently is, as I personally hold Mao to have been one of the greatest advocates of social change within a warped caste system.

June 3rd, 1989: Massacre in Tiananmen Square

On 7 April 2011 a Beijing lawyer, Ni Yulan, and her husband, Dong Jiqin, were detained by Beijing police on suspicion of "picking quarrels and provoking trouble". They have since been formally charged with the offence. The couple are reportedly being held at a detention centre in Beijing – and not for the first time. Ni has been arrested and tortured several times since defending people forcibly evicted from their homes in the lead-up to the Beijing Olympics in 2008. For engaging in her legitimate professional advocacy, Ni has been permanently disbarred and frequently detained. While in custody in 2002, she was beaten so badly that she now uses a wheelchair.

And finally, about your wonderful Chairman Mao;
State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

Mr Dikötter said that he was once again examining the Party's archives for his next book, The Tragedy of Liberation, which will deal with the bloody advent of Communism in China from 1944 to 1957.


He said the archives were already illuminating the extent of the atrocities of the period; one piece of evidence revealed that 13,000 opponents of the new regime were killed in one region alone, in just three weeks. "We know the outline of what went on but I will be looking into precisely what happened in this period, how it happened, and the human experiences behind the history," he said.

Mr Dikötter, who teaches at the University of Hong Kong, said while it was difficult for any historian in China to write books that are critical of Mao, he felt he could not collude with the "conspiracy of silence" in what the Chinese rural community had suffered in recent history.
September 16, 2010

SHALL I GO ON? If you doubt what I have posted, look it up. You seem not to know much. And BTW, myself and most members of my family are from Canada. Canadians like us, I know them.

[stlukesguild]

I am always amazed at how much some people know about everything.

Most people have not been to China, and most people who have have not seen most of China. We rely on sold and bought images for our opinions - we have a discussion here about the rise of China, but how much of the discussion is rooted in personal experience - what isn't just second hand propaganda from either side being reorganized.

I spent a year and a half living in New York City and I wouldn't even begin to think of myself as an expert on half of that great city, its politics, history, future, etc... JBI spends a year in China as a student and he's not only a expert on China but also on Taiwan, North and South Korea, the Philippines, Japan, the United States and probably the whole of the Middle-East as well. The wonders of modern education.:goof:

[cafolini]

If you want to know a bit about North Korea, watch the National Geographics' documentary Inside North Korea.

[JBI]

June 3rd, 1989: Massacre in Tiananmen Square

On 7 April 2011 a Beijing lawyer, Ni Yulan, and her husband, Dong Jiqin, were detained by Beijing police on suspicion of "picking quarrels and provoking trouble". They have since been formally charged with the offence. The couple are reportedly being held at a detention centre in Beijing – and not for the first time. Ni has been arrested and tortured several times since defending people forcibly evicted from their homes in the lead-up to the Beijing Olympics in 2008. For engaging in her legitimate professional advocacy, Ni has been permanently disbarred and frequently detained. While in custody in 2002, she was beaten so badly that she now uses a wheelchair.

And finally, about your wonderful Chairman Mao;
State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

Mr Dikötter said that he was once again examining the Party's archives for his next book, The Tragedy of Liberation, which will deal with the bloody advent of Communism in China from 1944 to 1957.


He said the archives were already illuminating the extent of the atrocities of the period; one piece of evidence revealed that 13,000 opponents of the new regime were killed in one region alone, in just three weeks. "We know the outline of what went on but I will be looking into precisely what happened in this period, how it happened, and the human experiences behind the history," he said.

Mr Dikötter, who teaches at the University of Hong Kong, said while it was difficult for any historian in China to write books that are critical of Mao, he felt he could not collude with the "conspiracy of silence" in what the Chinese rural community had suffered in recent history.
September 16, 2010

SHALL I GO ON? If you doubt what I have posted, look it up. You seem not to know much. And BTW, myself and most members of my family are from Canada. Canadians like us, I know them.

That perhaps is true, however anecdotal much of that is. However, what of Japanese internment in the US during those years, for instance? Does that not get a mention? Or perhaps a more fair comparison, such as looking at Chinese rapid modernization and the American modernization that happened about 100 years earlier. You are not going to tell me the US has the cleanest history in the world, are you?

I need not mention the crimes of the US, or individual American presidents, the mere chaos of the Vietnam War and the Millions of deaths it caused are just one example.

No country is perfect, though perhaps one should footnote more than one reference when doing research on something that even that source admits is far more complex than the treatment he is giving it.

[JBI]

If you want to know a bit about North Korea, watch the National Geographics' documentary Inside North Korea.

The bulk of what we know of the history and policy of North Korea is rooted in controlled testimony and information offered by the Korean CIA, who have been proven to be completely groundless in the past. National Geographic hardly seems an inside source.

[JBI]

I am always amazed at how much some people know about everything.

Most people have not been to China, and most people who have have not seen most of China. We rely on sold and bought images for our opinions - we have a discussion here about the rise of China, but how much of the discussion is rooted in personal experience - what isn't just second hand propaganda from either side being reorganized.

I spent a year and a half living in New York City and I wouldn't even begin to think of myself as an expert on half of that great city, its politics, history, future, etc... JBI spends a year in China as a student and he's not only a expert on China but also on Taiwan, North and South Korea, the Philippines, Japan, the United States and probably the whole of the Middle-East as well. The wonders of modern education.:goof:
You forgot half the world.

But seriously, one need not be an expert to dispel BS, as you have proven in this thread as well. I would be the first person to admit my opinions polemics and less researched then I would like. Though, I think almost anyone can say with confidence that any arguments about "them commies" tend to be rather limited from the get-go. McCarthy has been dead for how long?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I am always amazed at how much some people know about everything.
Hey, there something we have in common!

The bulk of what we know of the history and policy of North Korea is rooted in controlled testimony and information offered by the Korean CIA, who have been proven to be completely groundless in the past. National Geographic hardly seems an inside source.
I'm guessing National Geographic didn't consult you when making their documentary?

[JBI]

Hey, there something we have in common!

I'm guessing National Geographic didn't consult you when making their documentary?

They didn't, however, being an American firm, they aren't really allowed on the ground in North Korea, so I guess they didn't consult them either.

[mortalterror]

However, what of Japanese internment in the US during those years, for instance? Does that not get a mention?

Indeed, or the Canadian internment of Japanese-Canadians in WW2? Or the Canadian government's forced high arctic relocation of Inuit people to barren wastelands in the 1950s? Or the fact that for the first half of the twentieth century women could be arrested and held for years without trial under the Ontario Female Refuges Act for dating outside their race? Or what about the Canadian Indian Residential School System that exposed children to tuberculosis, forced labor, routine sexual assault, and general cultural genocide? Why aren't they worth a mention?

[BienvenuJDC]

I am always amazed at how much some people know about everything.

Most people have not been to China, and most people who have have not seen most of China. We rely on sold and bought images for our opinions - we have a discussion here about the rise of China, but how much of the discussion is rooted in personal experience - what isn't just second hand propaganda from either side being reorganized.

I spent a year and a half living in New York City and I wouldn't even begin to think of myself as an expert on half of that great city, its politics, history, future, etc... JBI spends a year in China as a student and he's not only a expert on China but also on Taiwan, North and South Korea, the Philippines, Japan, the United States and probably the whole of the Middle-East as well. The wonders of modern education.:goof:

:smash:

[stlukesguild]

Too often these debates seem like that old joke in which an American and a Soviet Russian are debating the relative merits of their nations. Finally the American comes out and asks, "What about Freedom of Speech? I can go out on the street and shout that the President of the United States is a moron without the least fear of retribution." The Russian retorts, "I can do the same. I can go out on the street and shout that the President of the United States is a moron."

JBI seems quick to use any and all discussions that slip the least into the political realm as a means of lecturing us poor deluded Americans as to the negative aspects of our history... which are well known and discussed in our schools and public forums. Do you believe that the Japanese Internment is some great secret unknown to most Americans. Do you think we are unaware of our racist history with regards to slavery, Jim Crowe laws, etc? But any discussion of the abuses and very real genocides of Cambodia, China, North Korea... I'm surprised there's no attempts at acting as the apologist for Nazi Germany (but there's probably a reason for that) immediately result in drawing our attention to American failings and suggestions that we are somehow blind to these. What of Canadian failings? What of the failings of the nation of your birth? Or perhaps they are all non-existent.

[JuniperWoolf]

Of course, but to make an analogy.

Canada is like just one of the many street pushers. It doesn't care who is the big boss, nothing changes, it gets its dope, it sells it and it is happy.

But America, America is like Don Corleone, the top boss. Once you have felt what it is like to be on top of the world, anything less is bitter disappointment. But when you have been mediocre your entire life, you don't know what you have missed and thus cant ever be to sad about it.

Hey! Pushing what, oil and lumber? What a mean-spirited analogy, there's no respect for Canada I tell you. Story of my life.

We're not mediocre, we're underpopulated and young (only 144 years old). Canada possesses a large chunk of the world's natural resources and our world education rankings (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading#data) far surpass those of any other western nation except Finland so all of the building blocks are there.

In another 144 years I'm sure we'll have contributed a fair deal to global progress, but we haven't had the time that most European countries have had or the population of the United States. Give us a minute, will you?


While I might not put it in such harsh terms, I agree, but I'm wondering what the Canadian reasons are, and if they are the same?

Well, during the last presidential debates they played electric guitar to a laser show while introducing the candidates. Need I go on? American politics seems to be mostly about who has the best catch phrase and stage personality.


What of Canadian failings? What of the failings of the nation of your birth? Or perhaps they are all non-existent.

Er... yeah, well, there might be one or two... our own history of Japanese internment in British Columbia during WWII for example, or our history of killing and repressing the aboriginals (and if we're going to bring up modern shortcomings, there is a deep hatred for all things American held by the majority of Canadians which I do not think is to our benefit).

[Varenne Rodin]

Nothing. Nonsense.

[mortalterror]

Er... yeah, well, there might be one or two... Japanese internment for example, or our history of killing and repressing the aboriginals (plus if we're going to bring up modern shortcomings, there is a deep hatred for all things American held by the majority of Canadians).

Don't forget about centuries of slavery or the Ukrainian Canadian internment camps of WW1.

[JuniperWoolf]

Don't forget about centuries of slavery or the Ukrainian Canadian internment camps of WW1.

Do you mean aboriginals within what is now geographically Canada owning other aboriginals from opposing tribes as slaves? Because that's the only history of large-scale slavery that we have. European settlers didn't really take part in the African slave trade (historians have been able to find records of somewhere near 4000 people living as slaves owned by European settlers of what is now Canada throughout all of history, of which only about 1/4 were of African descent - the rest were all natives). France and England didn't need to send slaves here, the endeavours of early settlers required skilled labour - they simply didn't need a large inexpensive labour force to work on plantation-style establishments like they did in the United States. This was all before Canada was a country, we were united as one nation after slavery was made illegal in the colonies so technically there was no slavery in Canada.

Really though, trying to find a human rights violation outside of Canada's treatment of aboriginals is beating around the bush. You need look no further, we've treated no one as badly as we did the natives, it was our greatest failure. We didn't go in for genocide like the Americans did, but look up Canadian residential schools, human rights violations abound. Also, even though they tried to throw land and money at the natives to make them feel better about being dominated and then repressed, this whole "reservation" thing is not going well. The rate of suicide and alcoholism is through the roof. Segregation will do that.


Sometimes I think everyone gets a little too serious. Why is any of this something to worry about? Wanna know what's serious? We'll all be dead in 90 years or less. Canadien, Chinese, American, all of us. Everything is eventual, so don't sweat the small stuff.

Pfft, hippie. :p

You don't see anything beneficial about a population which will strive for the glory of their nation? National pride is a motivation for greatness, not just for killing.


I spent a year and a half living in New York City and I wouldn't even begin to think of myself as an expert on half of that great city, its politics, history, future, etc... JBI spends a year in China as a student and he's not only a expert on China but also on Taiwan, North and South Korea, the Philippines, Japan, the United States and probably the whole of the Middle-East as well. The wonders of modern education.:goof:

To be fair, you didn't dedicate your life to studying New York.

[JBI]

Indeed, or the Canadian internment of Japanese-Canadians in WW2? Or the Canadian government's forced high arctic relocation of Inuit people to barren wastelands in the 1950s? Or the fact that for the first half of the twentieth century women could be arrested and held for years without trial under the Ontario Female Refuges Act for dating outside their race? Or what about the Canadian Indian Residential School System that exposed children to tuberculosis, forced labor, routine sexual assault, and general cultural genocide? Why aren't they worth a mention?

Oh, of course they are, as they are in every single Canadian history textbook. As you read above, I said every country. I am yet to see a spotless history. My point is, it is easy to pick another country and villainize them on the same grounds that one could probably villainize ones' own country.

[JBI]

Too often these debates seem like that old joke in which an American and a Soviet Russian are debating the relative merits of their nations. Finally the American comes out and asks, "What about Freedom of Speech? I can go out on the street and shout that the President of the United States is a moron without the least fear of retribution." The Russian retorts, "I can do the same. I can go out on the street and shout that the President of the United States is a moron."

JBI seems quick to use any and all discussions that slip the least into the political realm as a means of lecturing us poor deluded Americans as to the negative aspects of our history... which are well known and discussed in our schools and public forums. Do you believe that the Japanese Internment is some great secret unknown to most Americans. Do you think we are unaware of our racist history with regards to slavery, Jim Crowe laws, etc? But any discussion of the abuses and very real genocides of Cambodia, China, North Korea... I'm surprised there's no attempts at acting as the apologist for Nazi Germany (but there's probably a reason for that) immediately result in drawing our attention to American failings and suggestions that we are somehow blind to these. What of Canadian failings? What of the failings of the nation of your birth? Or perhaps they are all non-existent.
Of course it isn't a secret, my point was not to stab at American backwardness, as you very well can lecture on it. My point was, given the position of American history, how dare Americans point fingers at the evil of others when it often mirrors their own. The same way as Canadians it is impossible to escape a dark history, Americans cannot either - the only difference is, we don't go around pointing fingers at the evil of them commies the way some Americans on this thread (not all) do.

As for you being aware, I would wager others are not. I have read that polls in the States regarding history have often found people uneducated in such matters - I admit no real ability to tell, as I have not researched the matter thoroughly.

But to suggest that me dispelling this myth of the evil communist or anti-American villain which has been prevalent since World War 2 in the American mythological mentality, but draws its roots in the American Revolution, as well as the frontier mentality is clearly wrong. There are no better critics of the United States than Americans themselves, though quoting them as a Canadian seems to warrant a rather negative response. Imagine how a Chinese person feels being told they are nothing but commies who are abused and weak and need American guidance.

It seems that whenever I mention the United States, I get a backlash of hate from you because I somehow am an American basher or something. Arguably, I am rather light in that regard - most of the world does a far better job at bashing you guys, China included, where they paint your president in the press as a weak effeminate failure, and your country as going through a rapid decay. It's no surprise; the reports of activity in Stalinist Soviet Russia from the west were either the most flattering or the most heinous depending on the reporters' affiliations. I am merely conveying a general desire for people to look at what position they are criticizing the world from.

As for the Nazi's, well, you don't need to tell them, the German population is one of the few countries a little bit honest. Austria though, a little less, Japan, completely dishonest. It varies based on ignorance, pride, and the will of the academies.

And the reason I don't point out my own country's failings publicly, is that outside of two stupid little issues of no real significance, the rest of the world seems to know nothing of our history, and beyond that nothing of the darkness of it, much less care. The only thing people seem to complain about is a little bit of dirt in the Tar Sands and an already declined annual seal hunt - most Americans don't even know we joined the Nato mission into Afghanistan, something which most Canadians disagree with. Much less do people know about mistreatment of Ukrainian Canadians.

[Emil Miller]

Hey, there something we have in common!




As Oscar Wilde once remarked: "I'm not young enough to know everything."

[JuniperWoolf]

Oh yeah, this thread is about the economy, isn't it?

I fall asleep when it comes to economics, but I have a friend who's big into it and he believes that the recent decline in the American economy is less due to bad decisions of the big corporate heads and more because the individual everyman has too much debt. The reason he has so much debt is because he insists on buying expensive gizmos and luxeries that he doesn't need, and he "will not pay 'till 2012!" Suddenly he's drowning in debt and he can't pay for even half of it. The economy caves in on itself as a result.

His theory for solving the economic crisis in the United States is fairly straightforward: stop buying sh*t you don't need.

Any opinions on that?

[Varenne Rodin]

Pfft, hippie. :p

You don't see anything beneficial about a population which will strive for the glory of their nation? National pride is a motivation for greatness, not just for killing.

Haha. To some extent. I'm not really proud of America, but I have greatly appreciated the talents of many of our citizens.

Disregard the stuff I said before. I am a modern hippie, it's true (but I'm way more clean). My ramblings last night were the result of too much red wine and a really great zombie movie. :D

[JBI]

Oh yeah, this thread is about the economy, isn't it?

I fall asleep when it comes to economics, but I have a friend who's big into it and he believes that the recent decline in the American economy is less due to bad decisions of the big corporate heads and more because the individual everyman has too much debt. The reason he has so much debt is because he insists on buying expensive gizmos and luxeries that he doesn't need, and he "will not pay 'till 2012!" Suddenly he's drowning in debt and he can't pay for even half of it. The economy caves in on itself as a result.

His theory for solving the economic crisis in the United States is fairly straightforward: stop buying sh*t you don't need.

Any opinions on that?

Two things, one, it isn't just that the US has declined, it is still quite strong, it's just that many other countries have caught up, or are catching up startlingly quickly.

As for buy or not, I thought the remedy was to keep buying to solve the problem, so as to generate more flow, hence more growth, hence more jobs, hence more money. People still need to spend money, they just need to spend it on the right things.

I heard somewhere something along the lines of any great Economist will tell you economics works on a system where you pay me, and I create the model to justify your policy. I don't know how true that is, I am not an economist, nor do I find it particularly interesting, though from what I do know is that the house purchasing is the real big one. People don't own their homes, and the American banking system is far less restrictive in letting people purchase homes without being able to afford them. I have been told that both Canada and Germany are similar in having tightly monitored banking and less of the impossible banking of the States - Couldn't tell you for certain how true that is, but I suspect the American dream to be unrealizable for too many who nonetheless seek it out.

[mortalterror]

Do you mean aboriginals within what is now geographically Canada owning other aboriginals from opposing tribes as slaves? Because that's the only history of large-scale slavery that we have. European settlers didn't really take part in the African slave trade (historians have been able to find records of somewhere near 4000 people living as slaves owned by European settlers of what is now Canada throughout all of history, of which only about 1/4 were of African descent - the rest were all natives). France and England didn't need to send slaves here, the endeavours of early settlers required skilled labour - they simply didn't need a large inexpensive labour force to work on plantation-style establishments like they did in the United States. This was all before Canada was a country, we were united as one nation after slavery was made illegal in the colonies so technically there was no slavery in Canada.

Well, as long as you didn't have that many slaves... and you don't really count your native population as Canadians... and you didn't really need them... and a lot of them weren't even black... and you call yourselves something else now... then I guess yeah, you never owned slaves.

[KCurtis]

Hey, there something we have in common!

I'm guessing National Geographic didn't consult you when making their documentary?

:smilielol5::nod: Good one! Perfect!!!


Oh yeah, this thread is about the economy, isn't it?

I fall asleep when it comes to economics, but I have a friend who's big into it and he believes that the recent decline in the American economy is less due to bad decisions of the big corporate heads and more because the individual everyman has too much debt. The reason he has so much debt is because he insists on buying expensive gizmos and luxeries that he doesn't need, and he "will not pay 'till 2012!" Suddenly he's drowning in debt and he can't pay for even half of it. The economy caves in on itself as a result.

His theory for solving the economic crisis in the United States is fairly straightforward: stop buying sh*t you don't need.

Any opinions on that? I love it!! We are sooo spoiled! I myself do not buy anything I can't pay for- with real money. And you are partly right about the everyman.
I also want you to know I think you are one of the smartest young persons I have ever "met", JuniperWoolf. You don't pretend to know everything, you back up your statements with proof, and you are quite logical.

[Originally posted by JBI [/QUOTE]
That perhaps is true, however anecdotal much of that is. However, what of Japanese internment in the US during those years, for instance? Does that not get a mention? Or perhaps a more fair comparison, such as looking at Chinese rapid modernization and the American modernization that happened about 100 years earlier. You are not going to tell me the US has the cleanest history in the world, are you?
I need not mention the crimes of the US, or individual American presidents, the mere chaos of the Vietnam War and the Millions of deaths it caused are just one example.

No country is perfect, though perhaps one should footnote more than one reference when doing research on something that even that source admits is far more complex than the treatment he is giving it.[/QUOTE]

Ofcourse it's anecdotal. Why wouldn't it be?? I have not mentioned the U.S. because I will not discuss that with you-you are mentioning things I obviously already know, but will not discuss with someone who doesn't like my country to begin with- it's a waste of time, and we'd be going round in circles. I have never told you, nor was I going to, that the US has the cleanest history in the world-you are using that because you have begun to grasp at straws here.
Secondly, I have not used footnotes, nor did I use one reference, everyone should know the date and year of the first one- that was from my own knowledge, since I was 31 at the time it happened, it is an extremely vivid memory, and I know exactly where I was when I saw it. How can one forget seeing a person mowed down by a tank?

[OrphanPip]

Well, as long as you didn't have that many slaves... and you don't really count your native population as Canadians... and you didn't really need them... and a lot of them weren't even black... and you call yourselves something else now... then I guess yeah, you never owned slaves.

Well you did say "centuries of slavery," given that Canada, even as a British colony, only existed for about 40 years before slavery was made illegal, it's a bit disingenuous. Canada, as a continuous political entity, has had limited exposure to slavery, and no history of chattel slavery.

And interpreting Jun's statement about aboriginal slavery, which pre-dates colonization, as saying our current Natives aren't Canadian is just petty. Would it be fair then to say Canadians and Americans have a national history of cannibalism because of some Native tribes, or that Mexicans participated in human sacrifice... really now.

Under the French regime, there were a few black house servants, but given that Quebec under the French was a feudal society, even white people were indentured servants.

Just take back your statement about slavery and Canada, because it was misguided. Canada has done plenty wrong, but "centuries of slavery" is grasping at straws and requires a deliberate misrepresentation of history.

[Alexander III]

Hey! Pushing what, oil and lumber? What a mean-spirited analogy, there's no respect for Canada I tell you. Story of my life.

We're not mediocre, we're underpopulated and young (only 144 years old). Canada possesses a large chunk of the world's natural resources and our world education rankings (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading#data) far surpass those of any other western nation except Finland so all of the building blocks are there.

In another 144 years I'm sure we'll have contributed a fair deal to global progress, but we haven't had the time that most European countries have had or the population of the United States. Give us a minute, will you?




I have a hard time imagining that the words "Oh **** Canada is pissed!" have ever been uttered in the history of international relations.

You have a stable economy and solid welfare and education, and the average canadian does pretty well in terms of quality of life compared to most of the world.

But then again the same can be said of Luxembourg...

[KCurtis]

I spent a year and a half living in New York City and I wouldn't even begin to think of myself as an expert on half of that great city, its politics, history, future, etc... JBI spends a year in China as a student and he's not only a expert on China but also on Taiwan, North and South Korea, the Philippines, Japan, the United States and probably the whole of the Middle-East as well. The wonders of modern education.:goof:

:smilielol5: Yes, education nowadays must be truly amazing. I already did that, and I came out an expert on nothing-knowing that, I was able to then learn.

[mortalterror]

Well you did say "centuries of slavery," given that Canada, even as a British colony, only existed for about 40 years before slavery was made illegal, it's a bit disingenuous. Canada, as a continuous political entity, has had limited exposure to slavery, and no history of chattel slavery.

And interpreting Jun's statement about aboriginal slavery, which pre-dates colonization, as saying our current Natives aren't Canadian is just petty. Would it be fair then to say Canadians and Americans have a national history of cannibalism because of some Native tribes, or that Mexicans participated in human sacrifice... really now.

Under the French regime, there were a few black house servants, but given that Quebec under the French was a feudal society, even white people were indentured servants.

Just take back your statement about slavery and Canada, because it was misguided. Canada has done plenty wrong, but "centuries of slavery" is grasping at straws and requires a deliberate misrepresentation of history.

So you are not going to take credit for anything that happened within your borders before 1867? You're just going to blame two hundred years of slavery on either the native population, the French, or the British, even though you were the British and the French at the time. And furthermore, you only had a couple of slaves, and you didn't work them that hard, so it shouldn't really count. Is that right?

You know what, I'm not taking it back. I'll double down on this. Your country was so racist that when the British parliament finally put an end to slavery in the 1830s your countrymen sold their slaves to Southern plantations so they wouldn't have to free them. How 'bout that? And then the free blacks they didn't sell weren't welcome in your country so they sent them to Sierra Leone. Look it up.

You didn't have enough black people to build your railroads so you brought in Chinese laborers and then issued a head tax and halted Chinese immigration to get rid of them once the railroads were done.

Then your military joined the British in the Boer War from 1899-1902 and made themselves a party to war crimes such as Kitchener's scorched earth policy and concentration camps that killed thousands of women and children and unnumbered, uncounted black bystanders in South Africa. You guys named a town after that man.

In the 1930s you only allowed 4,000 Jews into Canada of out of some 800,000 and famously turned away the SS. St. Louis. You had a large race riot between Jews and anti-semites at Christie Pits Park in Toronto in 1933. Local synagogues were set ablaze, swastikas were painted around town, and many Jews were beaten.

Then you have the segregation, and the laws restricting voting for minorities... But like JBI said, no country's perfect.

[Scheherazade]

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Since this thread has turned into another the US vs Canada debate,

it will now be closed.

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