Mammoth 2012 - January - The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu

[TheFifthElement]

Hi all :D As mentioned in a previous thread, I'm going to try and read a mammoth novel each month in 2012 and intend to make a start with The Tale of Genji from 01st January. So that I can't get out of it, I'm starting the thread now so if anyone else would like to join me on this epic journey please feel free to post your thoughts here. All comers would be most welcome :D

[Charles Darnay]

Which edition are you using? I have yet to come across an unabridged version.

[TheFifthElement]

Hi Charles :D I'm reading this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1857151089/ref=mp_s_a_2?qid=1325013886&sr=8-2

[Calidore]

The third review down, by Steven Bradbury, compares the three available English translations and includes an excerpt to illustrate the translators' styles.

http://www.amazon.com/Tale-Genji-Penguin-Classics-Deluxe/dp/014243714X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[JBI]

I'll read it but I will be done with it in the first week as I have read most of it before. Make sure your edition is well footnoted.

[Charles Darnay]

The third review down, by Steven Bradbury, compares the three available English translations and includes an excerpt to illustrate the translators' styles.

http://www.amazon.com/Tale-Genji-Penguin-Classics-Deluxe/dp/014243714X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I found a bookstore that carried both the Tyler (Penguin) and Waly (Turtle) editions. I spent some time comparing them, and the review alluded to is quite accurate. Waly is a bit pedantic with his words but overall reads better than Tyler. I found it difficult to get through a page - "clumsy" is a very accurate way to describe the translation. Also the Penguin edition is more bulky. So Waly is it for me.

[TheFifthElement]

So, I have started reading. I'm on chapter 4 at the moment, reading the Seidensticker translation. So far my reactions are a bit mixed. I find it very readable, and I love the little interjections of poetry and am very glad that my copy has references to the original poem being quoted, otherwise those references would be lost on me. On the downside, it is a little confusing. It is like it is not quite in chronological order and aside from chapter one there is information which I feel I should be party to which doesn't seem to have come up yet. Particularly around the fact that Genji is said to be disinterested in women (because of a particular love) then he's dallying with all and sundry! I'm also not sure I quite 'got' the significance of Genji being designated a 'commoner' by his father, the Emperor. But in reading the introduction by Seidensticker it appears that the first chapters are patchy, so I am persevering on that front and hope some things make sense. There's a whole section where the men are talking about the different 'ranks' of women which I think I might need to read again. I'm not quite sure how they got there, and after reading it I really felt like I missed something.

So, interesting but confusing. An illustrious start :D

[Charles Darnay]

I'm around where you are at. In my edition, the footnote after the first chapter heading reads "this chapter should be read with indulgence" - which is not the best way to start the book. The first chapter reminded me of the Ramayana in both its plot and way it which is written. The following chapters seem different. I am not too sure how all the characters fit together, and I am as well a bit confused about Genji's love interests. I did enjoy the chapter of the "ranking of women."

[mona amon]

I read this a couple of years back and loved it, and will be very happy to read it again with you all. Not sure if I'll have anything intelligent to say about it, though. 'The Shining Genji' is one of my favourite fictional charaters, so I think I'll be using this smiley a lot :ladysman:

[JBI]

I read this a couple of years back and loved it, and will be very happy to read it again with you all. Not sure if I'll have anything intelligent to say about it, though. 'The Shining Genji' is one of my favourite fictional charaters, so I think I'll be using this smiley a lot :ladysman:

Or this one: :cryin:

[mona amon]

Or this one: :cryin:

I didn't get it, but reminds me of this little quote - "I have no doubt that there were many fine passages in the letters with which he saddened the lives of his many ladies, but, grief-stricken myself, I did not listen as carefully as I might have." (chapter 12) :lol:

[TheFifthElement]

mona amon, I'd love to hear your views on the book. I too am becoming very fond of Genji though he is a shameless womaniser ( I guess it went with the times! ). Yes, it is also sad. I'm up to chapter 10 'The Sacred Tree' and have just passed a very sad part which I'll not mention yet unless people are far enough along but which relates to the fate of Aoi.

Charles the issue of Genji's womanising behaviour seems to have been explained at the end of chapter 4 Evening Faces where Murasaki says:


I had hoped, out of deference to him, to conceal these difficult matters; but I have been accused of romancing, of pretending that because he was the son of an emperor he had no faults. Now, perhaps, I shall be accused of having revealed too much.

This both explains the focus on this behaviour and also suggests that we're not reading in exact chronological order or even written order as little of what I've read so far would suggest that Genji is faultless, even by chapter 10.

I am really loving the poetic interludes, they really brighten the story. Genji certainly gets into trouble with his ladies too sometimes with quite tragic consequences.

Does anyone know the significance of sleeves? There's a lot of talk about sleeves: brightness of sleeves, length of sleeves, wetting of sleeves, etc. Did sleeves bear a particular significance in Japanese dress in that era?

[Aylinn]

Hi, I'm also reading Genji monogatari.


Does anyone know the significance of sleeves? There's a lot of talk about sleeves: brightness of sleeves, length of sleeves, wetting of sleeves, etc. Did sleeves bear a particular significance in Japanese dress in that era?
I once read that the ability to choose sleeves well was a mark of good taste.

[JBI]

They were also quite long, and were used instead of pockets. I cannot say for sure, as I know only things really concerning the dress' forerunners in Chinese culture, but the sleeves, were of the type I believe to sway and draw attention to themselves. I would also wager, given the screen that seems to distort all social reactions, sleeve could mean any number of things. The main point though I would think is that sleeves were a big distinguished of taste in dress, as most of the other dress would be less personalized, and layered on (I believe at this period dresses for women would be so thick and heavy as to warrant constant fanning of the self in order not to suffocate, hence the importance of sleeves in the peripheral view of a man looking through a curtain).

As for his womanizing, I think the strength of the novel is that he is never reproached, as he is a sort of idealized, super-man throughout the novel, with his constant fault of always longing. I don't want to drop any spoilers, but clearly an aesthetic of lamenting for the past is the dominant force of the novel. Genji is never happy, always rash, and never reproached, his impeccable sensibility and subjectivity, as well as his tragic self-destructive impulse is highly tied in with the demonic and esoteric religious and popular cultures surrounding the book, which give it its characteristic mood.

That the poetic bits were mentioned as drawing your attention is interesting, as the poetry is highly prized, and highly passionate - the hyperbolic nature of the verse is interesting in that I believe it is not meant to be hyperbolic. I believe the intensity of the emotional sensibilities of the characters are meant to be taken literally, as the world of the Shining Prince is far more passionate than our own. The actual sensibility of seasons and time within the book contribute to this feeling, as things move with a passionate lament at the passing of events, that is both aesthetically rich, and brutally tragic.

[mona amon]

I'm only 3 chapters in. At this rate it'll take me the whole year. The problem is I'm reading it online, sitting at my computer, instead of curling up in bed with it, as I guess it was meant to be read.

Genji's mother, the Emperor's favourite, is bullied like in any modern day high school, and succumbs to the bullying. Genji, handsome, shining, perfumed, richly dressed and beloved by all would be the perfect example of a male Mary Sue, yet for reasons I can't analyse, when the author keeps telling us that he's the most charismatic thing that ever happened, I totally take her at her word. It's probably the passion and longing and lamenting mentioned by JBI. :D

I found chapter 2 a bit tedious as long as the men were discussing the ideal woman, and didn't blame Genji for falling asleep. I think Genji must still be a teenager in these chapters, since he was married off when he was 12 or thereabouts.


"Well, you at least must not abandon me." Genji pulled the boy down beside him.

The boy was delighted, such were Genji's youthful charms. Genji, for his part, or so one is informed, found the boy more attractive than his chilly sister." (Chapter 2)

Wow! :shocked: So matter of fact!

[TheFifthElement]

So, how is everyone getting along? I'm about 1/2 way through and still enjoying it.

Thanks for all the info about the sleeves. They really seem to have been important.

mona amon I know what you mean. I think it was much more acceptable in Japanese culture than it is generally perceived to be in the West. It's interesting, though, that the idea of his taking Murasaki as his wife when she was still very much a child still seemed to be unconventional. That being said it seems to turn out well. So far anyway :D

[mona amon]

Good progress, FifthElement! I've only done 3 more chapters :blush: but hope to make more progress now as I've recently got a Kindle (yay!), and can read it in bed rather than sitting at the computer.

I too am enjoying it very much!

[TheFifthElement]

Thanks mona :D I spend about 1 hour 40 minutes sitting on trains every day which gives me a lot of reading time so I tend to work through books quite quickly. I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'm finding it such an easy read, much more so than I was expecting.

Then this morning, chapter 40 - The Rites. :bawling: :bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:

[qimissung]

I just finished Chapter 4. I'm enjoying it very much. I liked the passage where the men talked about the 'ranks' of women, and thank you, JBI-your information was very helpfuI got a little confused in this last chapter about whom he was seeing and the other women he still had on the side, but I think I had it figured out by the end.

I am curious now as to how long his wife's family is going to continue to be happy with him.

[TheFifthElement]

Well I finished Genji early last week. I am still absorbing. It is definitely a book of 2 halves. I don't want to post spoilers, so I won't talk about why until people are a bit more of the way through it.

Overall it was an interesting read. I found it very easy to read, though there are cultural issues which confuse me and overall I'm not convinced that their treatment of women was very good although sometimes I wonder if Murasaki Shikibu wrote to highlight some of those points. Anyway, I enjoyed it and I'd be happy to read it again. Though maybe not next week...

How is everyone else getting along?

[mona amon]

Not too well so far as I was really busy, but things have eased up now and I hope to make a lot of progress this month. It'll be good to read at a stretch instead of a chapter now and then, during which I completely forget things like who the Rokujo lady was. :D Genji has way too many ladies!

I'm glad you enjoyed it, FifthElement. One frustrating thing about these discussions is having to hold yourself back because of spoilers!

[qimissung]

I'm about on page 300 now. Still liking it; sorry to go so slowly. It feels like I spend a lot of time reading it, yet I don't progress quickly.