dorian gray

[danny]

who is more responsible dorian or lord henry

i think dorian is cause he can choose

-aestheticism taught by lord h abscribes to the principle of individuality. if lord h taught him.then he must have the freedom to choose
-has the ability to choose shown by him deciding between right and wrong
-choose to sell soul
-choose to follow lord h principles
-say on one page that he can resist lord h
-destroys and hides pic shows he has conscious control

[LadyLuck]

I'll actually get back to you. This is on my shelf and next in line to read. I've seen the movie (normally against my own rules, but I was bored), and I'm looking forward to the book.

[danny]

thanks.

i need help asap

i have my final test on thurs

i have only skimmed it

[cacian]

From what I know and have seen/read I personally would say that neither of them are.

The reasons are the following:

Lord Henry believes that one should only pursue beauty and the fulfillement of the senses,which as we know is detrimental unrealistic and fake.
one would would argue that beauty is superficial( beauty is in the eye of the beholder).
One might ask what is this beauty and how can one pursue it?
So it is a catch22 if you like, and fulfillement of the senses is ''egocentric and despotic'' in my views because one that lives to only satisfy themselves is an act of pure selfishness and indulgence because one will come/have to rely on others.
Is it wise to do so? or is it simply an idiotic approach to life with heavy repercussions.

Dorian comes across as unexperienced and dellusional because I quote:

Dorian (whimsically) expresses a desire to sell his soul to ensure the portrait Basil has painted would age rather than himself. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, plunging him into debauched acts

This means the act/wish Dorian has got himself into was misguided and subsequently not without consequences.
I would say that Lord Henry's carelessness has deceived and misled Dorian, whose unexperience led to his own misfortune.
Lord Henry is therefore responsible or shall I say irresponsible and Dorian's detriment is direclty linke to Lord Henry.
They both fail to achieve anything.
This is my take on it.

[kiki1982]

I would have to go with Cacian. Ultimately, it is Dorian's choice, but if Lord Henry hadn't suggested it, he would not have done it.

Evil Lord Henry wanted to set up something to see what happened (in a little naturalistic way still).

[danny]

lord henry suggest that their is no consequences for your actions
-their is no right or wrong only pursuit of sensory experience through beauty
-the painting showed him that consequences could be masked by exterior beauty
-reinforced by the contrast between what he does and how people view his beauty

-

conversly, dorian is responsible
-he choose to sell his soul
-he had opportunities to choose good/bad yet he choose bad
ie when he dumps sybil he weighs good and chooses bad
-

[danny]

ciacan

i skimmed it again

seems like lord h was responsible with his bs aesethicism

not sure what my argument is yet. but maybe something the influence of other people

-psychology lit
we can be infuenced unconsciously ie tv,media,culture
cults etc are extreme forms


-the painting /lord h theories suggest there is no consequences for action --its not right or wrong its just an experience.
-this is reinforced when dorian gets away with everything
-ie. rumours that must not be true cause dorian is so pure looking, james vain doesnt kill dorian cause he is too young looking, etc.

dorian tries to escape lord h grips but can't--it is too powerful
-several times he wants to break free but cant
-ie. after he harshly dumps sybil--he wants to break free of lord h infuence, by hiding the pic he wants to free himself or lord h influence and is own personal weakness(easily influenced)

the yellow book
-im not sure what to say here but he said he didn't want to break free from its infuence
-this leads him to take on asethicism to the extreme
-he collects jewels
-hits the docks
-fights, smokes opium,

[sickboy]

i personally think that if you look at it in a simple way, lord henry holds so much of the responsibility for tainting dorian with all his aestheticism. had he not have done so, everything else would not had happen and dorian would have remained the unadulterated being that he is.

but of course, dorian had all the freedom to make his choices and actions but he didn't make the supposedly right ones. he also allowed himself to be influenced so easily and did not break free from the grips of lord henry.

i think it would be best if you weigh both sides of the arguments and judge for yourself who you felt had been more responsible for the turnout of the events. that way you would be able to write more because you have your heart placed in your choice?

[PoeticPassions]

We can go back to the original sin in this instance... Lord Henry is sort of the serpent who corrupts Dorian in some sense. Leading to the first sin and his fall (from which he never really recovers).

He is young, and easily influenced... but of course, he has free will, but once he sins, each consequent sin becomes easier, with less guilt. After the worst sin of all-- the taking of a human life-- he really hits the point of no return.

LH if the more experienced of the two, so in some sense he should be more responsible, but I still think that Dorian is to blame for having such a weak character... it is one thing to be led into action, but quite another to continue it even after remorse. He is aware of the difference between good and bad, but he still chooses to act in a completely hedonistic manner... Still, someone had to push him off the ledge, I suppose.

[danny]

dorians obsession with beauty causes his downfall.