View Full Version : Lady Chatterley's Lover
I have been reading this book for the last one week. This, the one most disputed and censored in the UK, was later on acclaimed by E.M. Foster and a veteran critic F. R. Leavis. Of course there is some obscene if you judge them by our establishments and yet reading it detachedly and disinterestedly I like the art and philosophy of the book. The writer had amply used some generally considered offensive words.
All these things apart I enjoy the book and find the philosophy of life sex, love defined by Lawrence quite revealing.
I want you to put forth your comments or opinions on the novel
cacian
11-29-2011, 05:57 AM
May I ask for some examples of what you consider rude or offensive by the writer?
I was introduced to D.H. Lawrence book , Sons and Lovers at University and I thought at the time what a strange twisted thing to write because it verges on the obscene if you like and that is of
INCEST'
For anything else after ths is neither offensive or out of order.
To think that the UK censored Lady Chatterley's Lover but did not with Sons and Lovers is rather unconvining to what the meaning of a Ban or Censor is all about.
blazeofglory
11-29-2011, 06:10 AM
May I ask for some examples of what you consider rude or offensive by the writer?
I was introduced to D.H. Lawrence book , Sons and Lovers at University and I thought at the time what a strange twisted thing to write because it verges on the obscene if you like and that is of
For anything else after ths is neither offensive or out of order.
To think that the UK censored Lady Chatterley's Lover but did not with Sons and Lovers is rather unconvining to what the meaning of a Ban or Censor is all about.
They are not offending to me and I enjoy and yet I find this thru some olden critical lens. He was candid and straightforward and I second his philosophy and the discussions held there quite illuminating
May I ask for some examples of what you consider rude or offensive by the writer?
I was introduced to D.H. Lawrence book , Sons and Lovers at University and I thought at the time what a strange twisted thing to write because it verges on the obscene if you like and that is of
For anything else after ths is neither offensive or out of order.
To think that the UK censored Lady Chatterley's Lover but did not with Sons and Lovers is rather unconvining to what the meaning of a Ban or Censor is all about.
In fact they are said beautifully and every line is full of something we can find mesmerizing
cacian
11-29-2011, 06:15 AM
In fact they are said beautifully and every line is full of something we can find mesmerizing
would you have an example of what you mean and in what sense?
blazeofglory
11-29-2011, 06:20 AM
It is so nice of Osho to start discussing a novel I always wanted myself and the fact this books needs some elucidations is it was once immensely disputed and D H Lawrence was even considered pornographic, which he is not though there may be some room for the criticism, and had no reputation the way he earned it posthumously. He was forthright; he took a great ascent and placed himself at a height no other writers could have peaked and from that acme he visualized the truth few other did.
would you have an example of what you mean and in what sense?
What I said is obvious and plain and no elaboration is wanting. The book itself is there before us to read and realize and everything in the book is said touchingly and the philosophy of the book deepens with the proceedings of every chapter. My OP may sound I was critical of him; on the contrary I am appreciative and recommend the rest if you have not read it
It is so nice of Osho to start discussing a novel I always wanted myself and the fact this books needs some elucidations is it was once immensely disputed and D H Lawrence was even considered pornographic, which he is not though there may be some room for the criticism, and had no reputation the way he earned it posthumously. He was forthright; he took a great ascent and placed himself at a height no other writers could have peaked and from that acme he visualized the truth few other did.
Thank you Blaze for your approving words.
I am expecting your comments if you have gone through this book. This book is one of the kind that transformed immensely and in fact it changed my attitude about life, romance, sex and the like. The writer is so much body -sensitive and he throughout the novel lays so much emphasis on body not on mind. He is against the platonic kind of love and he said Jesus was the one to finish it off and he wants this primordial, prehistorical pleasure or physical sex is reinvented and the ecstasy born of physical touch is relived.
We are today rationalizing our drives and in fact we are living mechanically far from our own real selves and some of the questions I always raised got answered here in this book and I am sure some of you might have gone through this magnum opus and give your opinions if you have.
I am expecting your comments if you have gone through this book. This book is one of the kind that transformed immensely and in fact it changed my attitude about life, romance, sex and the like. The writer is so much body -sensitive and he throughout the novel lays so much emphasis on body not on mind. He is against the platonic kind of love and he said Jesus was the one to finish it off and he wants this primordial, prehistorical pleasure or physical sex is reinvented and the ecstasy born of physical touch is relived.
We are today rationalizing our drives and in fact we are living mechanically far from our own real selves and some of the questions I always raised got answered here in this book and I am sure some of you might have gone through this magnum opus and give your opinions if you have.
I haven’t read this book. I may read it not to…change my attitude about life or sex, though. I think that we should find own truth rather than following others. I am curious that the author put as you said so much emphasis on body not on mind. Shouldn’t a balanced person appreciate the body and the mind?
I always feel suspicious of those who write about it. Shouldn’t ecstasy be experienced …rather than being in a realm of one’s dreams and writings? :biggrinjester:
I wouldn’t agree as you said that”we are today rationalizing our drives and in fact we are living mechanically far from our own real selves” generalizations are always dangerous. Some people may live that way, others don’t. :p
I haven’t read this book. I may read it not to…change my attitude about life or sex, though. I think that we should find own truth rather than following others. I am curious that the author put as you said so much emphasis on body not on mind. Shouldn’t a balanced person appreciate the body and the mind?
I always feel suspicious of those who write about it. Shouldn’t ecstasy be experienced …rather than being in a realm of one’s dreams and writings? :biggrinjester:
I wouldn’t agree as you said that”we are today rationalizing our drives and in fact we are living mechanically far from our own real selves” generalizations are always dangerous. Some people may live that way, others don’t. :p
If you haven't, I think you will find it a wonderful read, something singular in English literature. As you rightly said the writer throughout the entire novel laid emphasis on ecstasy. The main character Lady Chartterly has always been seeking for love; the sensuous, the physical only satisfied her though she came across a few. Finally the one she madly in love with comes from a working class and she finds in him the sturdy type she has been eternally craving. She was married to a crippled, paralyzed man whose down from the waist was completely paralyzed. He could intellectually, even emotionally gratify her but not physically and the writer through this novel puts forth his philosophy of life and he eternalizes the body and is against this modern world rife with platonic or catholic trashes.
If you haven't, I think you will find it a wonderful read, something singular in English literature. As you rightly said the writer throughout the entire novel laid emphasis on ecstasy. The main character Lady Chartterly has always been seeking for love; the sensuous, the physical only satisfied her though she came across a few. Finally the one she madly in love with comes from a working class and she finds in him the sturdy type she has been eternally craving. She was married to a crippled, paralyzed man whose down from the waist was completely paralyzed. He could intellectually, even emotionally gratify her but not physically and the writer through this novel puts forth his philosophy of life and he eternalizes the body and is against this modern world rife with platonic or catholic trashes.
Hm…I don’t know what you mean by platonic and catholic trashes. Are you talking about the medieval ages? This book was first published in 1928 and it is December of 2011. Haven't you read about sexual revolution in 60’s? :devil:
Anyway, I can’t make any comments about book but I read others opinion. Richard Hoggart sees it in a very different way as he emphasizes the search for integrity and wholeness. It is not just about as you wrote, “pleasure or physical sex is reinvented and the ecstasy born of physical touch is relived”
I guess you have tried to simplify the author intentions.
Richard Hoggart argues that the main subject of Lady Chatterley's Lover is not the sexual passages that were the subject of such debate but the search for integrity and wholeness. Key to this integrity is cohesion between the mind and the body for "body without mind is brutish; mind without body...is a running away from our double being." Lady Chatterley's Lover focuses on the incoherence of living a life that is "all mind", which Lawrence saw as particularly true among the young members of the aristocratic classes, as in his description of Constance's and her sister Hilda's "tentative love-affairs" in their youth:
So they had given the gift of themselves, each to the youth with whom she had the most subtle and intimate arguments. The arguments, the discussions were the great thing: the love-making and connection were only sort of primitive reversion and a bit of an anti-climax.
The contrast between mind and body can be seen in the dissatisfaction each has with their previous relationships: Constance's lack of intimacy with her husband who is "all mind" and Mellors's choice to live apart from his wife because of her "brutish" sexual nature. These dissatisfactions lead them into a relationship that builds very slowly and is based upon tenderness, physical passion, and mutual respect. As the relationship between Lady Chatterley and Mellors develops, they learn more about the interrelation of the mind and the body; she learns that sex is more than a shameful and disappointing act, and he learns about the spiritual challenges that come from physical love.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Chatterley%27s_Lover
Hm…I don’t know what you mean by platonic and catholic trashes. Are you talking about the medieval ages? This book was first published in 1928 and it is December of 2011. Haven't you read about sexual revolution in 60’s? :devil:
Anyway, I can’t make any comments about book but I read others opinion. Richard Hoggart sees it in a very different way as he emphasizes the search for integrity and wholeness. It is not just about as you wrote, “pleasure or physical sex is reinvented and the ecstasy born of physical touch is relived”
I guess you have tried to simplify the author intentions.
In fact I did not try to simplify but try to mirror his thoughts; yet the depth of his novel is unfathomable for me and I am really stirred up, a little disturbed by his revolutionary idea and the way he dealt with the burning question of male-female relationship in this chaotic world.
kelby_lake
12-06-2011, 07:13 AM
Richard Hoggett is right: it's about the search for fulfillment, which Connie finds in Mellors. In all the Lawrence novels I've read, they explore the clash between physical and spiritual love, and the impossibility of finding both in the same person.
In fact I did not try to simplify but try to mirror his thoughts; yet the depth of his novel is unfathomable for me and I am really stirred up, a little disturbed by his revolutionary idea and the way he dealt with the burning question of male-female relationship in this chaotic world.
Well, the way you wrote it sounded that it was just about sexual love where love, deep intimacy, and mind was not that important. Hoggart’s understanding made me curious to read this book. Please, don’t forget that it was a different reality than that of today. We have quite different issues and problems but the search for wholeness and integrity is as valid as it was in 1928.
Well, the way you wrote it sounded that it was just about sexual love where love, deep intimacy, and mind was not that important. Hoggart’s understanding made me curious to read this book. Please, don’t forget that it was a different reality than that of today. We have quite different issues and problems but the search for wholes and integrity is as valid as it was in 1928.
In fact when we read a certain book with a certain and different philosophy in it get absorbed in it and it is really hard drive one out of this syndrome and that I just now got immersed in his thoughts does not mean his philosophy will carve out my future way or thought.
But for now I am entirely wrapped up in his thoughts, almost gripped
Richard Hoggett is right: it's about the search for fulfillment, which Connie finds in Mellors. In all the Lawrence novels I've read, they explore the clash between physical and spiritual love, and the impossibility of finding both in the same person.
Yes it is exactly the search and we all want it and the way we understand love and sex misdirect us and keeps us from fulfillment
Yes it is exactly the search and we all want it and the way we understand love and sex misdirect us and keeps us from fulfillment
Kelby_lake expressed it well. Only a small number of people find fulfillment in relationships as they find physical, emotional, and mental connections. In fact, there were research done according to which after 15 years of marriage 90% of married couple described their marriage as empty. After 25 years of marriage the number raised to 99% . It is only 1% of people who find deep fulfillment and emotional intimacy. It is a big problem and 99% look for “the perfect one”.
Is it just understanding of love and sex that stop most people from achieving fulfillment? I wish it were that simple. There is a vast literature on marital therapy as many scholars have been looking for the answer. My favorite is Bowen family system. Bowen clearly stated that most people who enter therapy due to dissatisfaction in marriage leave therapy when the symptoms disappear. He said that only small number of couple stays for 3 years in therapy that results in long lasting changes in dynamic in relationships and deep fulfillment. So, it is not just understanding of love and sex but inner strengths and courage to change and grow. Interestingly enough, when women change the steps in relationships, men intensify their behavior as Bowen described, “change back ” behaviour. Unfortunately, many women go back to the old dynamic as a result of “change back” behaviors of their partners that involve withdrawal, emotional abuse, even physical abuse, or threat of divorce.
They can be quite creative.....not to change and grow. :biggrinjester:
Kelby_lake expressed it well. Only a small number of people find fulfillment in relationships as they find physical, emotional, and mental connections. In fact, there were research done according to which after 15 years of marriage 90% of married couple described their marriage as empty. After 25 years of marriage the number raised to 99% . It is only 1% of people who find deep fulfillment and emotional intimacy. It is a big problem and 99% look for “the perfect one”.
Is it just understanding of love and sex that stop most people from achieving fulfillment? I wish it were that simple. There is a vast literature on marital therapy as many scholars have been looking for the answer. My favorite is Bowen family system. Bowen clearly stated that most people who enter therapy due to dissatisfaction in marriage leave therapy when the symptoms disappear. He said that only small number of couple stays for 3 years in therapy that results in long lasting changes in dynamic in relationships and deep fulfillment. So, it is not just understanding of love and sex but inner strengths and courage to change and grow. Interestingly enough, when women change the steps in relationships, men intensify their behavior as Bowen described, “change back ” behaviour. Unfortunately, many women go back to the old dynamic as a result of “change back” behaviors of their partners that involve withdrawal, emotional abuse, even physical abuse, or threat of divorce.
They can be quite creative.....not to change and grow. :biggrinjester:
In fact we hardly get appropriately paired up through weddings and we make a hodgepodge of things, arrange everything beforehand to make marriage a celebration. But in a while most find their spouses in bed repulsive. There is no love but kind of kinship only, no bond of love and understanding but of values and mores, of no purity of heart but of a brief impulsive contentment. Yet we socially pretend we are a happy couple, satisfied and fulfilled and we rejuvenate the relationship thorough by hanging out together as socialites. But at the bottom we are shallowly living, faking our love, romance and fulfillment and Lawrence laid it bare though at times boldly and brazenly. He was oftentimes considered pornographic. Most of us, if not all, are kind of hungry for something and we can affiliate better with someone special crave secretly and for that matter I feel Lawrence shares our points of observation and put forth it for our view and review.
I second your idea of the "perfect one" and we are desperately seeking for that one.
I second your idea of the "perfect one" and we are desperately seeking for that one.
If you are lucky……you will be in 1% I have only met one married couple who fit into that category.
I have asked my “spiritual” mother about them since she has known them for 2o years. They deeply cared about each other and when I met them there had been married for 23 years. I could feel genuine love in the air. Many people put a mask, pretending that they are happy. Well, they can’t hide it from those who are good observers. Many couple after getting married put pajamas or just underwear and they don’t care. But then they are upset that the partner is not interested in ……experiencing ecstasy. Second, many men expect women to clean and cook, take care of their emotional weaknesses, be the best in bed…… be successful and never tired. :biggrin5:
I don’t know the book and the author’s solution but it sounds that he expressed his deep longing to find fulfillment. I don’t know about his life but I wouldn’t be surprised, if he didn’t find it.
If you are lucky……you will be in 1% I have only met one married couple who fit into that category.
I have asked my “spiritual” mother about them since she has known them for 2o years. They deeply cared about each other and when I met them there had been married for 23 years. I could feel genuine love in the air. Many people put a mask, pretending that they are happy. Well, they can’t hide it from those who are good observers. Many couple after getting married put pajamas or just underwear and they don’t care. But then they are upset that the partner is not interested in ……experiencing ecstasy. Second, many men expect women to clean and cook, take care of their emotional weaknesses, be the best in bed…… be successful and never tired. :biggrin5:
I don’t know the book and the author’s solution but it sounds that he expressed his deep longing to find fulfillment. I don’t know about his life but I wouldn’t be surprised, if he didn’t find it.
In fact we wear a mask of society and that cripples our emotional appeals. We have to wed and live together in society and in a few days most become fed up with their spouses and they look ugly and unappealing and yet they sleep under the same roof and pretend to be lovers whereas their minds fly somewhere and with someone and that is why people have lovers , mistresses and a few of this stark realty is filmed and we watch on TV serials but most of the events go never recorded.
And a few writers are blatantly doing justice to their observations, unearthing the reality that is there and Lawrence has done this magnificently
In fact we wear a mask of society and that cripples our emotional appeals. We have to wed and live together in society and in a few days most become fed up with their spouses and they look ugly and unappealing and yet they sleep under the same roof and pretend to be lovers whereas their minds fly somewhere and with someone and that is why people have lovers , mistresses and a few of this stark realty is filmed and we watch on TV serials but most of the events go never recorded.
And a few writers are blatantly doing justice to their observations, unearthing the reality that is there and Lawrence has done this magnificently
I think that it is a deeper problem than that. We got a very wrong idea about relationships. Many still believe that Cinderella met a prince and they were living happily ever after. Nobody says that perhaps Cinderella had a compulsive and addictive disorder and……..was busy cleaning the palace 24/7. :biggrinjester: You have said that they their minds are somewhere else…thinking about a lover. But we have to ask why?
Relationship requires work. But we haven’t beentold that, have we? It is easier to dream or have a lover then do a job. Sadly, as people get older, particularly men as they reach dreadful 40’s and their sexual prowess is disappearing with a speed of light…….they are left only with … dreams.
I think that it is a deeper problem than that. We got a very wrong idea about relationships. Many still believe that Cinderella met a prince and they were living happily ever after. Nobody says that perhaps Cinderella had a compulsive and addictive disorder and……..was busy cleaning the palace 24/7. :biggrinjester: You have said that they their minds are somewhere else…thinking about a lover. But we have to ask why?
Relationship requires work. But we haven’t beentold that, have we? It is easier to dream or have a lover then do a job. Sadly, as people get older, particularly men as they reach dreadful 40’s and their sexual prowess is disappearing with a speed of light…….they are left only with … dreams.
Yes, absolutely so, and we have, in fact most, not only got a wring idea but wrong relationships and we keep up it since we fear seclusion and in society we have to swallow frustrations and humiliations. And men reaching the 40s become the repulsive lots, and their wives get noting from them and may look else where for something really more vital and sweeter and lovelier and yet they dread the criticisms of their neighbors, relatives and the like and they have to shrink cocooning in their communal, familial cossets. They want a powerful, sensuously appealing touch something that salivates them and give them the feel of the body and soul; they want to intertwine bodily and mentally and get the thrill of oneness and feel the fusion of something between them and it is sex and that rarely happens between the couples.
Yes, absolutely so, and we have, in fact most, not only got a wring idea but wrong relationships and we keep up it since we fear seclusion and in society we have to swallow frustrations and humiliations. And men reaching the 40s become the repulsive lots, and their wives get noting from them and may look else where for something really more vital and sweeter and lovelier and yet they dread the criticisms of their neighbors, relatives and the like and they have to shrink cocooning in their communal, familial cossets. They want a powerful, sensuously appealing touch something that salivates them and give them the feel of the body and soul; they want to intertwine bodily and mentally and get the thrill of oneness and feel the fusion of something between them and it is sex and that rarely happens between the couples.
I wouldn’t say that people stay in wrong relationships because they fear seclusion. It may be a part of the problem. But I think that many fear to be alone. Economic reasons also play a role so that they deliberately choose misery.
I agree that people want to feel fully alive and to have deep emotional, physical, and mental connections. Women need emotional intimacy and understanding. Men who don’t take an effort to listen and try to understand women without giving any advice kill relationships and passions. I was laughing when I was reading Rosenberg’s book where he was teaching married couples to listen. A husband who finally got what it meant to listen was shocked to learn that his wife was happy and fulfilled and he didn’t need to do anything.LOL! He couldn’t believe that it was all he needed to do. I don’t know from where men got the idea that if a woman expresses her feelings and needs, they feel obliged to solve her problems. Nothing else can make women angry.
Relationships can bring the best in us but it can be a source of pain and frustrations. Socrates has his idea about marriage.
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." :lol:
I wouldn’t say that people stay in wrong relationships because they fear seclusion. It may be a part of the problem. But I think that many fear to be alone. Economic reasons also play a role so that they deliberately choose misery.
I agree that people want to feel fully alive and to have deep emotional, physical, and mental connections. Women need emotional intimacy and understanding. Men who don’t take an effort to listen and try to understand women without giving any advice kill relationships and passions. I was laughing when I was reading Rosenberg’s book where he was teaching married couples to listen. A husband who finally got what it meant to listen was shocked to learn that his wife was happy and fulfilled and he didn’t need to do anything.LOL! He couldn’t believe that it was all he needed to do. I don’t know from where men got the idea that if a woman expresses her feelings and needs, they feel obliged to solve her problems. Nothing else can make women angry.
Relationships can bring the best in us but it can be a source of pain and frustrations. Socrates has his idea about marriage.
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." :lol:
You have a wonderful quote of Socrates and in fact it is really significant and is in fact true. People are together as husband and wife sheer for economic reasons, social reasons and not for a personal reason. Men just want a powerful sex and women want something passional, emotional, and once man satisfy his urges he does not care about his wife and she becomes hormonal since she has not satisfied herself sexually and become depressed and yet she sticks to him and this is how society goes on and on and on infinitely. I have seen some societies in which sex for women mean only for spawning babies and not for enjoyment and men on the other hand always makes the most of it. That is why this institution of marriage fails and Lawrence saw it vividly and I can feel it in his novel, Lady Chatterley's Lover and I have finished it recently
You have a wonderful quote of Socrates and in fact it is really significant and is in fact true. People are together as husband and wife sheer for economic reasons, social reasons and not for a personal reason. Men just want a powerful sex and women want something passional, emotional, and once man satisfy his urges he does not care about his wife and she becomes hormonal since she has not satisfied herself sexually and become depressed and yet she sticks to him and this is how society goes on and on and on infinitely. I have seen some societies in which sex for women mean only for spawning babies and not for enjoyment and men on the other hand always makes the most of it. That is why this institution of marriage fails and Lawrence saw it vividly and I can feel it in his novel, Lady Chatterley's Lover and I have finished it recently
Okay. The institution of marriage fails for many people. I don’t know this book but Hoggart said that they built relationship very slowly and it was based upon tenderness, physical passion, and mutual respect. I think that is extremely import aspect of having fulfilling relationship. Many people fall in love but they mistakenly take a strong physical attraction as love. After all, love is blind, isn’t it?
But they don’t take time to get to know each other to be sure that they emotionally or mentally match. Many women fall in love with ……..potential and they spend their energy to change a partner to fit her image of him. But most likely it is only her dream about him. LOL! Others may get together for very wrong reasons in the first place. They feel incomplete and look for a person to make them a whole and complete. A perfect prescription for a disaster.
We go back again to the very wrong ideas people have about relationships.
But there is a small percentage of people who enjoy the deep and fulfilling relationships with success in all ares of their lives.
Okay. The institution of marriage fails for many people. I don’t know this book but Hoggart said that they built relationship very slowly and it was based upon tenderness, physical passion, and mutual respect. I think that is extremely import aspect of having fulfilling relationship. Many people fall in love but they mistakenly take a strong physical attraction as love. After all, love is blind, isn’t it?
But they don’t take time to get to know each other to be sure that they emotionally or mentally match. Many women fall in love with ……..potential and they spend their energy to change a partner to fit her image of him. But most likely it is only her dream about him. LOL! Others may get together for very wrong reasons in the first place. They feel incomplete and look for a person to make them a whole and complete. A perfect prescription for a disaster.
We go back again to the very wrong ideas people have about relationships.
But there is a small percentage of people who enjoy the deep and fulfilling relationships with success in all ares of their lives.
Yes the few who succeed enjoy the relationships to the fullest extent. And what binds them together is understanding and this is not infatuation and it is a sense of togetherness. I have read a Greek legend in which there was a being that split up and got turned into two beings: male and female. They again wanted to regain their old unity since they have been by accident two beings. That is how sex has happened since they become intertwined and this sense of sex is the feeling of togetherness and today few want this kind of kinship. They have some urges, that rise up inside their bodies through some chemical reactions, sex hormones and once they satisfy themselves everything is over. But in real love they become one and intimately and integrally one and feel the eternal joy of sex and unity and this is what I felt in his novel. Now I am reading his other novel Sons and Lovers which I had read in my school days and now as a matured man I read it differently and I find a different meaning here, a different philosophy since in those days my impotency or immaturity barred me from comprehending this great literature
Yes the few who succeed enjoy the relationships to the fullest extent. And what binds them together is understanding and this is not infatuation and it is a sense of togetherness. I have read a Greek legend in which there was a being that split up and got turned into two beings: male and female. They again wanted to regain their old unity since they have been by accident two beings. That is how sex has happened since they become intertwined and this sense of sex is the feeling of togetherness and today few want this kind of kinship. They have some urges, that rise up inside their bodies through some chemical reactions, sex hormones and once they satisfy themselves everything is over. But in real love they become one and intimately and integrally one and feel the eternal joy of sex and unity and this is what I felt in his novel. Now I am reading his other novel Sons and Lovers which I had read in my school days and now as a matured man I read it differently and I find a different meaning here, a different philosophy since in those days my impotency or immaturity barred me from comprehending this great literature
Right now I understand you. I agree that in real love people feel the depth and sexual act is one of the way to express it. Alexander Lowen beautifully talked about that kind of love and sex. He said that those who feel deep love reach ecstasy where they merge with each other and merge with entire universe. He expressed it better but it is the idea of feeling deep connection with the partner and whole universe. However, according to his 40 + experience of working with people, not that many people know that experience and most people are not capable of it due to emotional blockages. The problem is that many people don’t have a passionate nature as they control their feelings. Passionate nature requires giving in to body and its feelings that need to be fully expressed. It is simple, yet difficult for many.
Right now I understand you. I agree that in real love people feel the depth and sexual act is one of the way to express it. Alexander Lowen beautifully talked about that kind of love and sex. He said that those who feel deep love reach ecstasy where they merge with each other and merge with entire universe. He expressed it better but it is the idea of feeling deep connection with the partner and whole universe. However, according to his 40 + experience of working with people, not that many people know that experience and most people are not capable of it due to emotional blockages. The problem is that many people don’t have a passionate nature as they control their feelings. Passionate nature requires giving in to body and its feelings that need to be fully expressed. It is simple, yet difficult for many.
You are close to the idea I hold strongly and in fact when we are really in love we do not feel our individuality and this is how love happens in its essence the way a rivulet meets a river and flow together to an ocean of ecstasy and there is no self and get merged as you have felt and a sensation flows, a deep undercurrent between the two and this is rapture and this is rarely possible in most relationships and when two lovers can unknot their prejudices, preoccupations and can feel they are on this planet to enjoy the company of each other. In this perfect relationship the femaleness of her wakes to its fullness and the maleness wraps her up in its eternal lap and arms and they become eternal one. Hardly the model of marriage can help them to reach that stage, perfect unity
You are close to the idea I hold strongly and in fact when we are really in love we do not feel our individuality and this is how love happens in its essence the way a rivulet meets a river and flow together to an ocean of ecstasy and there is no self and get merged as you have felt and a sensation flows, a deep undercurrent between the two and this is rapture and this is rarely possible in most relationships and when two lovers can unknot their prejudices, preoccupations and can feel they are on this planet to enjoy the company of each other. In this perfect relationship the femaleness of her wakes to its fullness and the maleness wraps her up in its eternal lap and arms and they become eternal one. Hardly the model of marriage can help them to reach that stage, perfect unity
Yes, I agree that in deep love people transcend their ego. I wouldn’t say that they don’t feel their individuality. They definitely don’t while making love but they have to have a strong sense of self to feel deep love. When people have a strong self of self, they are relatively free from defenses and can fully give in to their feelings. It is a key since there is no space for prejudice or any limiting beliefs. Dance is not that powerful as love but people transcend the ego boundaries and many times they feel love.
I agree that that kind of depth of experience is not possible for most people. Sad, indeed, as many try to find fulfillment in many wrong ways that leave them empty.
Yes, I agree that in deep love people transcend their ego. I wouldn’t say that they don’t feel their individuality. They definitely don’t while making love but they have to have a strong sense of self to feel deep love. When people have a strong self of self, they are relatively free from defenses and can fully give in to their feelings. It is a key since there is no space for prejudice or any limiting beliefs. Dance is not that powerful as love but people transcend the ego boundaries and many times they feel love.
I agree that that kind of depth of experience is not possible for most people. Sad, indeed, as many try to find fulfillment in many wrong ways that leave them empty.
That is why no marriage can pair off each other properly and that is people seek it somewhere and that is the predicament we live in society and now few people can fathom the depth of love and can understand each other's bodies and the touch then becomes superficial and few can touch the innermost part each other while making love. I always feel there must be a good amount of understanding each other and their mental and physical frames and then only they must physically touch, caress and kiss and proceed further to have sex or else this will be shallow.
That is why no marriage can pair off each other properly and that is people seek it somewhere and that is the predicament we live in society and now few people can fathom the depth of love and can understand each other's bodies and the touch then becomes superficial and few can touch the innermost part each other while making love. I always feel there must be a good amount of understanding each other and their mental and physical frames and then only they must physically touch, caress and kiss and proceed further to have sex or else this will be shallow.
I agree that the foundation must be built if people want to have deep and fulfilling relationships. Otherwise, even to strongest physical attraction fade away…and people are endlessly looking for another experience. But there are people who don’t feel at all as if they don’t have souls and the only feelings they experience is sexual energy. I have noticed that they look for a feeling person. They should look for a numb person but it is not a case.
Oh, I did a lot of talking here. I like this subject but I better give a space to others. :lol:
I agree that the foundation must be built if people want to have deep and fulfilling relationships. Otherwise, even to strongest physical attraction fade away…and people are endlessly looking for another experience. But there are people who don’t feel at all as if they don’t have souls and the only feelings they experience is sexual energy. I have noticed that they look for a feeling person. They should look for a numb person but it is not a case.
Oh, I did a lot of talking here. I like this subject but I better give a space to others. :lol:
It is nice to hear you like this subject and in fact this is one such subject that speaks up much about human nature, their passion, their love and lust, their urges and some of the suppressed desires that never got addressed and that remained layered inside them. In fact the truth about human relationship, union, marriage and sexual interests go on ebbing and though when they meet first in their flowering days they woo each other and find them their relationship poignant and juicing. The juice of love goes on dripping inside them as long as the source does not dry up. That is why both men and women fall for someone else, an extramarital affair and he cannot feel drawn in there and time saps the relationship and if nothing is done to renew it the will perform like dry bones.
This is human situation and life becomes a bore, sickening; everything around turns up unappealing, unappetizing. The thrill of touch, fits of kisses and caresses and a series of sexual performances all will die down and still two individuals stand up to each other feigning love and relationship. This is trash
It is nice to hear you like this subject and in fact this is one such subject that speaks up much about human nature, their passion, their love and lust, their urges and some of the suppressed desires that never got addressed and that remained layered inside them. In fact the truth about human relationship, union, marriage and sexual interests go on ebbing and though when they meet first in their flowering days they woo each other and find them their relationship poignant and juicing. The juice of love goes on dripping inside them as long as the source does not dry up. That is why both men and women fall for someone else, an extramarital affair and he cannot feel drawn in there and time saps the relationship and if nothing is done to renew it the will perform like dry bones.
This is human situation and life becomes a bore, sickening; everything around turns up unappealing, unappetizing. The thrill of touch, fits of kisses and caresses and a series of sexual performances all will die down and still two individuals stand up to each other feigning love and relationship. This is trash
Well, life without passions is not worth living. If people let their passions, feelings, love, and lust flow, their spirits get stronger and they feel fully alive. But relationship and love is like a gentle flower that needs to be taken care of. People fool themselves that if they start a new affair or divorce to be with somebody else, they will find all aliveness and passions. Yes, for a very short time LOL I have a neighbor who was 3 times married. 4 months after his 3 wife left him, I couldn’t recognize him. I was shocked as he aged so much in 4 months. I was curious what had happened. He never took time after the relationship ended to be alone and to deal with all feelings. He jumped into another relationship very fast. 6 moths after the first relationship ended and 3 moths after a second one. He said that he was absolutely devastated by the extensity of his feelings after his last wife left. I could see it as he aged with a speed of light. But there are people who are emotionally numb. It is sad.
Well, life without passions is not worth living. If people let their passions, feelings, love, and lust flow, their spirits get stronger and they feel fully alive. But relationship and love is like a gentle flower that needs to be taken care of. People fool themselves that if they start a new affair or divorce to be with somebody else, they will find all aliveness and passions. Yes, for a very short time LOL I have a neighbor who was 3 times married. 4 months after his 3 wife left him, I couldn’t recognize him. I was shocked as he aged so much in 4 months. I was curious what had happened. He never took time after the relationship ended to be alone and to deal with all feelings. He jumped into another relationship very fast. 6 moths after the first relationship ended and 3 moths after a second one. He said that he was absolutely devastated by the extensity of his feelings after his last wife left. I could see it as he aged with a speed of light. But there are people who are emotionally numb. It is sad.
Life without passions, love and lust is totally empty, a dried up watercourse and it does not flow and has nothing to drown somebody in an ocean of joy and aliveness goes with embrace and the feelings it implants in the other. Yes, your neighbor is emotionally numb, dead and he took love for sexual gratification and once he fulfils this he finds the other unnecessary. When one matures sexually, emotionally and hormonally sex is inevitable and a bodily intercourse is a must to keep themselves emotionally together, but it does not stop there and if they stop their they will stop to feel the warmth of the other and sheer acts of sex become very stomach-turning in a while. They find the other side green. That is why marriage done without understanding each other is likely to fail and if the failures does not end up in a divorce, emotionally they fail and they find the togetherness of each other very cumbersome, discomforting. That is why physical or bodily relationships must precede enough understanding, hugging, caressing and talking heartedly or else the fountain of love will dry up and one will grope for something again
Life without passions, love and lust is totally empty, a dried up watercourse and it does not flow and has nothing to drown somebody in an ocean of joy and aliveness goes with embrace and the feelings it implants in the other. Yes, your neighbor is emotionally numb, dead and he took love for sexual gratification and once he fulfils this he finds the other unnecessary. When one matures sexually, emotionally and hormonally sex is inevitable and a bodily intercourse is a must to keep themselves emotionally together, but it does not stop there and if they stop their they will stop to feel the warmth of the other and sheer acts of sex become very stomach-turning in a while. They find the other side green. That is why marriage done without understanding each other is likely to fail and if the failures does not end up in a divorce, emotionally they fail and they find the togetherness of each other very cumbersome, discomforting. That is why physical or bodily relationships must precede enough understanding, hugging, caressing and talking heartedly or else the fountain of love will dry up and one will grope for something again
I think that my neighbor paid a big price for avoiding his feelings. But I don’t think that he understood it as he moved into another relationship 1 year later. Unfortunately, he moved out so that I don’t know if he was left again or not. Lol You are right saying that he was using his partners. I don’t know details about his relationships but he definitely needed women to do emotional work for him. No wonder, it was no he who ended relationships.
Some people do not want to grow and become a mature adult. :biggrin5:
blazeofglory
12-08-2011, 10:48 AM
I like this fascinating discussion between osho and ftil and it has almost given an air of romantic chat and both seem to have diverged a little further on a passionate level. Sharing something of their experience with enough romantic tangs. It is not bad to switch to express thoughts and yet this elongated talk has been too personal and sentimental as if the partakers knew each other intimately.
I have read Lady Chatterley’s Lover and Lawrence used some offensive terns and in his lifetime and he earned his popularity much afterwards and critical acclaim posthumously only and of course I understand the writer has voiced for sensuous or physical love, something one has to enjoy by touching each other disregarding the old notion of detached love, a certain mental frame.
Both osho and ftil has really added to it more than Lawrence did, finding it a platform for their discussion, with an air of sensuality.
I am not critical of it though I may sound so a bit. This kind of open discussion is critical to literature and makes the forum livelier and of course lovelier. We all are capable of being exposed to emotional or romantic fits and life is like that and there is no sin in that. We need a partner to talk to, the right partner of course and both got in each other to be carried to an extent that can entertain a reader like myself.
I am not denigrating anybody here and they are my friends and I have talked to osho and enjoyed his romantic poems. Most of his poem have plenty of romantic elements and I believe he must be youthful both in spirit and body.
This is my critical appreciation or comment on the discussion.
I agree with you that sharing our experience and feelings add aliveness to our discussions. I believe that sharing our feelings and insights with others is the best what we give to each other. I don’t like dry and detached discussions. I want to know what others feel. Beliefs are just beliefs and we change them like used clothing when they don’t fit any more. I also don’t like dry discussion about literature. Those who write share their souls, happiness, and sorrows and it evokes feelings and insights within us. It is interesting what you said that our discussion has given an air of romantic chat. I have the same kind of discussions with female friends. I believe that our lives would be different if we had emotional intimacy with people. But culture trained us to have emotional intimacy only in romantic relationships. It is wrong because when we can connect with each other on a deeper level we feel alive and energized. I have a couple of female friends and after spending time with them I feel energized so that I can’t fall asleep. I sleep for 4 hours but I feel like sleeping 8. Yes, we need a partner to talk to but I would extend it to other interactions too. :smile5:
Blaze is somewhat right and there was not just an air of romantic thought, but the wind of passion and we got swept far and far. Everyone wants it and though we live with pretense. I like ftil the way she is, a passionate lady and every word of her moved me and that is why got carried thus far passionately and spontaneously. I found a fire in her writing, and every word she wrote was abounding with beauty. Maybe we were on the same wavelength. As a human being I like a fully alive, vital lady of passion, not a robot and her ways of speaking is aflame with love, feeling and awareness. Do not narrow down the meaning of love to sex, and love is there between humans and that is why I like somebody’ writing and ideas. Every love issue does not end up in a physical intimacy. Physical intimacy between humans must not be a barrier to love to make life bleak. I love everybody here, the rest of guys and chicks. But this liking goes a little farther and that enables me to understand the person I am touch with or in love with. I can be in love with anybody and yet this is not a sexual intercourse and it is a spiritual intercourse, mental intercourse and this intercourse has gone on a deeper level between myself and ftil and this goes on unabashed so long as we can keep on understanding each other tolerantly and un-biasedly. Everybody has a heart and a heart is not something of veins and arteries; it has something subtler and profounder and that is feeling and both of us have plenty of it and have gone brimful and as long the source does not dry up we will carry on and you can join in the stream as a tributary and once you flow with us you are not a tributary, you will be the same river and going to an ocean and will be ocean. Imagine when come out of our egocentric confinement we will feel universal love.
Blaze, you too are heartily welcome
blazeofglory
12-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Osho and ftil has gone a little far and further than the rest of us and there is some room for something, and very candidly, there seemed some fishy thing and that is what I made out at first. They were talking as if it was a chat between two lovers passionately driven by some urge, romantic and sexual. I was too blinkered to think along those lines but human minds are capable of anything and this is the instinctive feeling and in a while, and particularly after reading ftil’s response and the subsequent response from osho I have a different thought and I realized it is not so and they are far above and beyond our or my own narrow thought. They are humans, a little bolder, a little more honest and sincere.
The subject matter seemed to have winched to some out of the context stuff and yet I am sure they are going not off hand or off course. They are in the same spirit as Lawrence is in his famous novel, Lady Chatterley’s Lover
Anyway for the first time on this forum I am reading a romantic stuff
Blaze I am glad that you have joined our discussion. I will tell you something……. in secret what my avatar stands for. Freedom, truth, integrity, and love. Sometimes, I got a harsh treatment for my honesty. But as an old proverb says, “If something doesn’t kill you, it will only make you stronger.” Well, women were programmed to be a lady…..not to be honest and passionate so that I definitely challenge old stereotypes……. with a punishment attached to it. :brow:
Osho, you have beautify expressed the essence of being a fully human. We got a heart for a reason! We want to touch another heart and we want others to touch our hearts. We are emotional beings and I strongly believe that we can only understand another human being on an emotional level. It is a universal need of all human beings to be heard and to be understood without judgment or criticism. If I can’t understand what others feel I am lost and I lose interest to talk. Spiritual and mental intercourse. I like that. It is a connection with another human being that makes us fully alive. Yes, we need to bring our passions back in everything what we do. I don’t just hate cleaning. I passionately hate it! It helps. Passion is contagious. I have noticed a shift of energy in people when I talk about something I am passionate about.
I have to read this book, particularly as both of you talk about it. There is also another member who has opened his tread about that subject. I may have many questions I will ask. To be honest, I do understand women but sometimes I don’t understand men. I can’t understand when they can’t translate their thoughts into feelings. It will be excited to get a deeper understanding.
kelby_lake
12-09-2011, 05:37 PM
It's worth reading other Lawrence books as well, as the exploration of physical vs. spiritual love and the search to find both in one person is present throughout his novels. I'd recommend Sons and Lovers and Women in Love.
I watched an interesting interview yesterday. It was not about relationships but somehow it brought many issues that relate to relationships and the importance of strong family bonds. It is a human need and desire to find a physical and mental and emotional connection in one person. People who have deep and fulfilling relationships are not only the happiest and healthiest but also they are highly successful in all areas in of their lives. They live their lives to the fullest and have not only deep intimate relationship with a partner but also with children and friends. They are inner directed and principle oriented, having a strong self of self. They can’t be controlled and they don’t control others. Unfortunately, those people constitute a small percentage of society. Did Lawrence found a panacea? I can’t answer it as I haven’t read it yet. But I have feelings that he did not, otherwise he wouldn’t be writing about it but living and enjoying it. I will see if my feelings were wrong or not. :lol:
I watched an interesting interview yesterday. It was not about relationships but somehow it brought many issues that relate to relationships and the importance of strong family bonds. It is a human need and desire to find a physical and mental and emotional connection in one person. People who have deep and fulfilling relationships are not only the happiest and healthiest but also they are highly successful in all areas in of their lives. They live their lives to the fullest and have not only deep intimate relationship with a partner but also with children and friends. They are inner directed and principle oriented, having a strong self of self. They can’t be controlled and they don’t control others. Unfortunately, those people constitute a small percentage of society. Did Lawrence found a panacea? I can’t answer it as I haven’t read it yet. But I have feelings that he did not, otherwise he wouldn’t be writing about it but living and enjoying it. I will see if my feelings were wrong or not. :lol:
In fact it is really hard to say whether one can have that most sought after thrill of blending and in fact we humans have flaws and hubristic mindsets and we never can still our minds at a particular point. When we are alone we want to build a relation, emotional, sexual and social and we come physically and emotionally closer to a certain POINT and extension and once we reach that stage we become fed up with this relation and crave the other greener side, more romantic, sensuous and fulfilling and that is how humans flirt and in some cases people cluster in a family setup and their confinements within that set boundary has much more to do with their limitations and fears and securities. There are some value or cultural issues too that make us eternally bound or get hooked to a single bond. Imagine how instable our minds are. They are like birds flying borderless in the open sky and no national or political boundaries can obstruct their flights. If you look at this issue from this lens I think you will second the thought of Lawrence. We are crippled by our traditions and that is why we mostly live depressed in society
In fact it is really hard to say whether one can have that most sought after thrill of blending and in fact we humans have flaws and hubristic mindsets and we never can still our minds at a particular point. When we are alone we want to build a relation, emotional, sexual and social and we come physically and emotionally closer to a certain POINT and extension and once we reach that stage we become fed up with this relation and crave the other greener side, more romantic, sensuous and fulfilling and that is how humans flirt and in some cases people cluster in a family setup and their confinements within that set boundary has much more to do with their limitations and fears and securities. There are some value or cultural issues too that make us eternally bound or get hooked to a single bond. Imagine how instable our minds are. They are like birds flying borderless in the open sky and no national or political boundaries can obstruct their flights. If you look at this issue from this lens I think you will second the thought of Lawrence. We are crippled by our traditions and that is why we mostly live depressed in society
Well, I ask different questions than you. There is nothing inspiring to look at those who failed. In other word, to look at those who are chasing a shadow. It can make us only depressed. No wonder so many people use Prozac. Doing the same again and again but expecting different results...... is insanity. :wink5:
It we want a different result we need to change our behavior. I prefer to look at those who succeeded and to learn from them.
Well, I ask different questions than you. There is nothing inspiring to look at those who failed. In other word, to look at those who are chasing a shadow. It can make us only depressed. No wonder so many people use Prozac. Doing the same again and again but expecting different results...... is insanity. :wink5:
It we want a different result we need to change our behavior. I prefer to look at those who succeeded and to learn from them.
Is there a yardstick of success in relationship? How can we make sure somebody is really and unfailingly successful at building a true relationship? Man and woman may behave in like manner outwardly and people are too clever to be pretentious and can masquerade their real natures and weaknesses and behave amicably and yet beneath their masked persona he or she may live in a different world. It is the most challenging job to know human nature. With this said however I never mean there are not good characters to follow and learn from. There could be. I have read one article in an international papers about Mahatma Gandhi, the most revered person in India and yet he had a licentious relationship with women in spite of his illustrious advocacy for chastity and if the Illustrious Gandhi failed what about the lesser humans? I am unsure real chastity and purity exist even today. I wonder who will be that last modern man / woman who can keep it to himself or her self
It is a good question how do we know. It definitely requires having emotional awareness to know that. We don’t perceive it through a left brain but a right one. But even if people don’t have emotional awareness, they still can recognize a mask that people put to impress others. 84-93% of our communication is transmitted via body language. It takes some practice to recognize incongruency between verbal and not verbal communication that is a visible sign of games or dishonesty. Virginia Satir called people who have congruency as levelers. I can say that if people are in a presence of a person whose verbal and nonverbal communication is congruent, they will know it. But if they don’t, they have to do some emotional healing to perceive it. In the end of the day, nobody who is emotionally numb or has a low level of emotional awareness can have deep and intimate relationships. It is as simple as that yet difficult to many.
Emotional awareness is something interesting to know about. We all are masks and in fact what pops up inside our heads never goes explicit and most of our thoughts are censored and we sift them through social endorsements prior to unfolding our thoughts. What we call manners, etiquettes, social mores and moral codes are external veneers and any thoughts or impulses that arise within us can wash them away in a while. No matter what righteous and moral altitudes one assumes and the tower of all this will be torn down by the strong gust of impulses. We weaklings, beasts standing on two legs have something funny and bizarre inside them and once we get engulfed by our desires we do away with what we have been told or instructed upon. Our standings are fair-seasoned statures, They fall dawn at any times wildly and all we remain is a heap of instincts, primal instincts and you have marvelously put forth them through your wonderful presentations of arts and paintings.
Emotional awareness is something interesting to know about. We all are masks and in fact what pops up inside our heads never goes explicit and most of our thoughts are censored and we sift them through social endorsements prior to unfolding our thoughts. What we call manners, etiquettes, social mores and moral codes are external veneers and any thoughts or impulses that arise within us can wash them away in a while. No matter what righteous and moral altitudes one assumes and the tower of all this will be torn down by the strong gust of impulses. We weaklings, beasts standing on two legs have something funny and bizarre inside them and once we get engulfed by our desires we do away with what we have been told or instructed upon. Our standings are fair-seasoned statures, They fall dawn at any times wildly and all we remain is a heap of instincts, primal instincts and you have marvelously put forth them through your wonderful presentations of arts and paintings.
LOL! I agree that some people may fit into that category. But it would be very sad to see people as a beasts run by instincts, indeed. Darwin would have to change his theory from evolution ....to devolution :biggrinjester: Don’t you think that we got minds and hearts for a reason? I guess you haven’t met people who are not mask but who have integrity. Making generalization is dangerous. But if you choose to see people as a mask and beast run by instincts…….you will only attract those kind of people. :wink5:
LOL! I agree that some people may fit into that category. But it would be very sad to see people as a beasts run by instincts, indeed. Darwin would have to change his theory from evolution ....to devolution :biggrinjester: Don’t you think that we got minds and hearts for a reason? I guess you haven’t met people who are not mask but who have integrity. Making generalization is dangerous. But if you choose to see people as a mask and beast run by instincts…….you will only attract those kind of people. :wink5:
We have integrity and in fact every man and woman how high or low he is. There is a the lowest point they cannot be lower than that and there is a pinnacle one cannot climb higher than that. We all have the lowliness of everyone and it is a matter of degrees and everyone is gullible. Mythology, you have read lengthily endorses this fact.
We have integrity and in fact every man and woman how high or low he is. There is a the lowest point they cannot be lower than that and there is a pinnacle one cannot climb higher than that. We all have the lowliness of everyone and it is a matter of degrees and everyone is gullible. Mythology, you have read lengthily endorses this fact.
I have a different understanding of integrity. People who have integrity have a high level of self awareness and emotional awareness. You can’t say that a person has integrity if he or she has a poorly defined self but reasonable level of pseudo self. Those are people whom you have described as having a mask.
I have noticed that you like making generalizations and you are trying to simplify it. :wink5: People are unique but some are inner directed. In other words, they have a strong self of self and they don’t have chronic anxiety and less emotional fusion in close relationships, therefore, they have more energy available to pursue goal oriented activity. In contrary, those who operate on a pseudo self experience a high level emotional intensity. It is a pseudo self that is vulnerable to being molded by others. It is a pseudo self that fuses with others, reacting to beliefs, attitudes, and values of others and trying to change them. It is a pseudo self that is gullible.
I am not interested in people who have pseudo self. We can’t learn from them how to have deep and intimate relationships. In fact, their relationships are an example of living in a hell with high level of anxiety that they try to release in many ways, not healthy ways though. :biggrin5:
I have a different understanding of integrity. People who have integrity have a high level of self awareness and emotional awareness. You can’t say that a person has integrity if he or she has a poorly defined self but reasonable level of pseudo self. Those are people whom you have described as having a mask.
I have noticed that you like making generalizations and you are trying to simplify it. :wink5: People are unique but some are inner directed. In other words, they have a strong self of self and they don’t have chronic anxiety and less emotional fusion in close relationships, therefore, they have more energy available to pursue goal oriented activity. In contrary, those who operate on a pseudo self experience a high level emotional intensity. It is a pseudo self that is vulnerable to being molded by others. It is a pseudo self that fuses with others, reacting to beliefs, attitudes, and values of others and trying to change them. It is a pseudo self that is gullible.
I am not interested in people who have pseudo self. We can’t learn from them how to have deep and intimate relationships. In fact, their relationships are an example of living in a hell with high level of anxiety that they try to release in many ways, not healthy ways though. :biggrin5:
I second your idea that people are unique and yes it is really to caste somebody in a particular mold and we cannot easily forecast who is who and only by studying their external behaviors, looks or something others have said about them we may misjudge or misquote their real natures. How they appear to us externally may not be representative what they actually are and what they seem may be masks, other than what they are. That is why most relationship fade in a while and in the west it does fail so fast and in the east too now with more and more people are getting exposed to western society and values are likely to break their relationships. Men are naturally free beings and societies and so called matrimonial relations or institutions cannot run far enough and though they idealize their intimacy in a short time they tend to crave their natural instincts.
I second your idea that people are unique and yes it is really to caste somebody in a particular mold and we cannot easily forecast who is who and only by studying their external behaviors, looks or something others have said about them we may misjudge or misquote their real natures. How they appear to us externally may not be representative what they actually are and what they seem may be masks, other than what they are. That is why most relationship fade in a while and in the west it does fail so fast and in the east too now with more and more people are getting exposed to western society and values are likely to break their relationships. Men are naturally free beings and societies and so called matrimonial relations or institutions cannot run far enough and though they idealize their intimacy in a short time they tend to crave their natural instincts.
You choose to believe that people are just mask and everybody is the same. Sad, indeed. You think that you have found a solution for marital or relationships problems. I am not going to convince you otherwise. :lol:
Well, we may end our discussion. I don’t want to repeat myself. On a final note, I can say that I have met a great men and women. They do exist, however, they are minority. They are not run by instincts but make a full use of their minds and hearts. Brilliant minds with big hearts. Trust me, they don’t waste their time to talk about sex……they enjoy experiencing it. :wink5:
You choose to believe that people are just mask and everybody is the same. Sad, indeed. You think that you have found a solution for marital or relationships problems. I am not going to convince you otherwise. :lol:
Well, we may end our discussion. I don’t want to repeat myself. On a final note, I can say that I have met a great men and women. They do exist, however, they are minority. They are not run by instincts but make a full use of their minds and hearts. Brilliant minds with big hearts. Trust me, they don’t waste their time to talk about sex……they enjoy experiencing it. :wink5:
There is a gulf between our understanding of the world we are living in. I do not want to conclude and most of what I talked about not necessarily comes from my direct experiences and most of them are derived, something I read in books, gathered from movies and dramas and maybe the real world functions differently than what I perceive or assume and I am still on the threshold of understanding it and maybe you have certain experiences and beliefs and when what I talked become incongruous to what you have understood and this may then turn out to be an irritant and you may find my thoughts discomforting though I never meant to hurt you. And I do not claim all I had argued rashly is what I really live by and stand for. They are not necessarily my ideologies and ideologies, thoughts, beliefs, relations all undergo shifts in this world and one does not become intellectually the same person after going through different phases in life
There is a gulf between our understanding of the world we are living in. I do not want to conclude and most of what I talked about not necessarily comes from my direct experiences and most of them are derived, something I read in books, gathered from movies and dramas and maybe the real world functions differently than what I perceive or assume and I am still on the threshold of understanding it and maybe you have certain experiences and beliefs and when what I talked become incongruous to what you have understood and this may then turn out to be an irritant and you may find my thoughts discomforting though I never meant to hurt you. And I do not claim all I had argued rashly is what I really live by and stand for. They are not necessarily my ideologies and ideologies, thoughts, beliefs, relations all undergo shifts in this world and one does not become intellectually the same person after going through different phases in life
You didn’t hurt me. I have realized that we can’t find a common ground. To be honest, it is depressing to think that humans like animals are run by instincts. Well, animals don’t have any desire to create, to passionately live their lives, or passionately love. They don’t need to use their brains either. I have a very different view of humans. Yes, some may fit into that category...but are they really humans? :biggrin5: Perhaps, Rudolf Steiner was right when he talked about pre Adamic people that is people who are a link between 2D and 3D consciousness. I wound never take seriously any channeled material, however, Knight Jadczyk also talked about organic people that is people who don’t have souls. I am very aware of people who are empty without insights or feelings and I am not the only one.
Second, when I speak, it comes from my experience. I love studying but any theory is useless if I can’t experience and evaluate it. I don’t take seriously movies, dramas, or novels to get the understanding of human problems. I hope that it would help you to understand where I am coming from.
You didn’t hurt me. I have realized that we can’t find a common ground. To be honest, it is depressing to think that humans like animals are run by instincts. Well, animals don’t have any desire to create, to passionately live their lives, or passionately love. They don’t need to use their brains either. I have a very different view of humans. Yes, some may fit into that category...but are they really humans? :biggrin5: Perhaps, Rudolf Steiner was right when he talked about pre Adamic people that is people who are a link between 2D and 3D consciousness. I wound never take seriously any channeled material, however, Knight Jadczyk also talked about organic people that is people who don’t have souls. I am very aware of people who are empty without insights or feelings and I am not the only one.
Second, when I speak, it comes from my experience. I love studying but any theory is useless if I can’t experience and evaluate it. I don’t take seriously movies, dramas, or novels to get the understanding of human problems. I hope that it would help you to understand where I am coming from.
I like your ideas of not getting novels, books or movies to influence your thoughts and of course I always appreciate this and even if I am unable to sidestep such sources I am trying this out through meditation. Meditation to me is not a ritual and to empty my mind of the things I have pursued. I am unsure whether I can free myself of all these elements. At times I wish I were a farmer living in a conservative society and live by what my parents, grandpas and the rest of ancestors did. I know for certain what I speak about comes from different sources and about that I myself remain somewhat indecisive , vacillating between thoughts. That I resist your ideas does not mean I wholeheartedly am doing so and sometimes for the sake of arguments I go thus far. What I write always does not reflect what one is and there are two lives most people live: one the emotional life and the other rational life as beautifully illustrated in Daniels Goldman’s Emotional Intelligence
I like your ideas of not getting novels, books or movies to influence your thoughts and of course I always appreciate this and even if I am unable to sidestep such sources I am trying this out through meditation. Meditation to me is not a ritual and to empty my mind of the things I have pursued. I am unsure whether I can free myself of all these elements. At times I wish I were a farmer living in a conservative society and live by what my parents, grandpas and the rest of ancestors did. I know for certain what I speak about comes from different sources and about that I myself remain somewhat indecisive , vacillating between thoughts. That I resist your ideas does not mean I wholeheartedly am doing so and sometimes for the sake of arguments I go thus far. What I write always does not reflect what one is and there are two lives most people live: one the emotional life and the other rational life as beautifully illustrated in Daniels Goldman’s Emotional Intelligence
Some people enjoy meditating. I have tried but it doesn’t work for me. In fact, meditation takes me away from my feelings and I don’t like having empty mind. How we can get to know our innermost feelings and our core beliefs……..if we have empty mind? :brow:
I don’t understand how expressing ideas that you do not necessarily agree with can help to foster understanding. Or, perhaps, it is a male approach …to have discussion for sake of having discussion. :smilewinkgrin:
I think that you misunderstood Goldman’s concept. Yes, we may simplify it and say that we have emotional and rational mind. But it is not separate. Some people tend to use rational mind whereas others use emotional mind and are quite reactive. Both approaches indicate low or absent emotional awareness. The key is to use both at the same time. In other words, we need to feel, think, and then act. Those with high level of anxiety feel and react. But we need to use our minds to its fullest to be aware of our defenses or when we become reactive.
Paulclem
12-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Some people enjoy meditating. I have tried but it doesn’t work for me. In fact, meditation takes me away from my feelings and I don’t like having empty mind. How we can get to know our innermost feelings and our core beliefs……..if we have empty mind? :brow:
Excuse me for butting in, but most meditation is not about emptying the mind. Meditation is most often used to contemplate things/ ideas/ concepts.
Excuse me for butting in, but most meditation is not about emptying the mind. Meditation is most often used to contemplate things/ ideas/ concepts.
I knew that you are going to show up here. :lol: You don’t contemplate your idea in meditation. The purpose is to empty one’s mind. Some people sit quietly while others do chant but the result is the same. Empty mind. Bronte Baxter’s spent 17 years studying and practicing Maharishi and I couldn’t say it better.
“Brahman", what Tolle calls “Presence,” does bring euphoric peace to the experiencer. The grave is peaceful, too, but I wouldn’t want to spend time in one. There is peace when an individual surrenders their personal self. Gone is the responsibility of making choices, of finding motivation, of coming up with creative solutions. Gone is the need to think and the sting of emotional repercussions from former bad decisions. The enlightened need to do nothing, say nothing, become nothing. But to achieve that iced-over state of detachment, that cosmic disassociation, they must sacrifice the most precious thing they have ever been given: their personal divine spark. The enlightened willfully self-implode. And God’s very purpose for making them, as a unique, personal expression of Itself, gets subverted.
And what did Maharishi procure for? The Vedic gods. He sold us a meaningless word that was supposed to guide our minds to transcend superficial consciousness. Later we learned those meaningless words, our mantras, were names of deities. He taught us advanced techniques with the Sanskrit word “namah” at their core: “I bow down.” Mantra meditation is a form of paying worship to those who call themselves gods. When you scrape away all the fancy and misleading explanations – like “meaningless sounds” and “impulses of creative intelligence,” what you get very simply is people with their eyes closed bowing down in their minds to an assigned Hindu deity.
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/about/
How practicing empty mind, ego-less state, lack of individuality, creativity, and passions can relate to our discussion? Well, if people don’t feel and their bodies are dead, how their love making be passionate? They may only feel sexual energy but it has nothing to do with feelings and passion. How an ego-less person or a better term a person with a weak sense of self can have a deep and fulfilling relationships? Impossible! They can only build codependent relationships…..a prescription to live in a hell. How long sexual passion will last if a partner has an empty mind void of individuality and creativity......... People do much more in their lives than….24/7 making love. :smilewinkgrin:
I knew that you are going to show up here. :lol: You don’t contemplate your idea in meditation. The purpose is to empty one’s mind. Some people sit quietly while others do chant but the result is the same. Empty mind. Bronte Baxter’s spent 17 years studying and practicing Maharishi and I couldn’t say it better.
How practicing empty mind, ego-less state, lack of individuality, creativity, and passions can relate to our discussion? Well, if people don’t feel and their bodies are dead, how their love making be passionate? They may only feel sexual energy but it has nothing to do with feelings and passion. How an ego-less person or a better term a person with a weak sense of self can have a deep and fulfilling relationships? Impossible! They can only build codependent relationships…..a prescription to live in a hell. How long sexual passion will last if a partner has an empty mind void of individuality and creativity......... People do much more in their lives than….24/7 making love. :smilewinkgrin:
Lovemaking becomes passionate and full of life when we involve ourselves in the act and do not dragged away by second thought. Man and woman could be real enjoyers had they not been hardwired to think uncooperatively. They had cultures, taboos, mores and the like impeding, in fact crippling them and all these heaps of "what others said", what others will say" or "what if others know this" and the like. This is ridiculous and we live by certain myths and do not get directed by our natural instincts. And when man and of course woman too are in this state, a very depressing state they take refuge in sex and this can go to the limit of 24 / 7 making love. The juice that is generated will dry up and the act of sex then becomes an robotic act, man over woman and vice versa and at the end of the day what remains of them is hatred, doubt, erratic nauseas and one makes hell out of all these affairs. We are capable of loving and being loved if we do not become so much skeptical of each other. Every man has something to dip in the ocean of love in every woman. The swimmer and the swum must be in perfect unison. Count out your prejudices, religions and teachings and live the way you want, the way the eagle flies defying the eternity that seems to delimit his impetus. Let us learn to trust for today the one and only panacea is love and trust. Today the spring that manufactures generosity, love, understanding, empathy in our heart has dried up and we have a penchant for looking at things through a rational lens, a rational lens is opaque and we cannot see beauty thorough this since this lens is made of only intellect and doubt and thought.
Lovemaking becomes passionate and full of life when we involve ourselves in the act and do not dragged away by second thought. Man and woman could be real enjoyers had they not been hardwired to think uncooperatively. They had cultures, taboos, mores and the like impeding, in fact crippling them and all these heaps of "what others said", what others will say" or "what if others know this" and the like. This is ridiculous and we live by certain myths and do not get directed by our natural instincts. And when man and of course woman too are in this state, a very depressing state they take refuge in sex and this can go to the limit of 24 / 7 making love. The juice that is generated will dry up and the act of sex then becomes an robotic act, man over woman and vice versa and at the end of the day what remains of them is hatred, doubt, erratic nauseas and one makes hell out of all these affairs. We are capable of loving and being loved if we do not become so much skeptical of each other. Every man has something to dip in the ocean of love in every woman. The swimmer and the swum must be in perfect unison. Count out your prejudices, religions and teachings and live the way you want, the way the eagle flies defying the eternity that seems to delimit his impetus. Let us learn to trust for today the one and only panacea is love and trust. Today the spring that manufactures generosity, love, understanding, empathy in our heart has dried up and we have a penchant for looking at things through a rational lens, a rational lens is opaque and we cannot see beauty thorough this since this lens is made of only intellect and doubt and thought.
I wish it were that easy. Well, I don’t believe in any shortcut. I did and I spent a considerable time to look for a shortcut…….without any success. :lol: Religion or spiritual teachings don’t have the same impact upon us as it had 100 years ago. We have sexual freedom, yet most people don’t have fulfilling relationships. You put too much emphasis on sex but the most passionate experience will be gone fast if people are not mature. By maturity I mean that people don’t build codependent relationships and spend their time to control each other or use all energy to mange anxiety in relationships. Second, people need to get their bodies back and feel all feelings. They need to know themselves and to have the ability to communicate their needs and feelings. I don’t want to sound sexist, but unfortunately, most men don’t have any clue how to express their feelings. They were programmed to be macho man without showing vulnerability. As a result of programming, many men are emotionally numb. It is a huge barrier as to understand another human being, we have to understand them on emotional level that is we need to feel their feelings. It is not true that men are not capable of achieving high level of emotional awareness or developing a six sense to intuit others feelings. My best teachers into the realm of emotional awareness were men. Love and passion is gone if people don’t understand each other. The name of the game is personal growth, and unfortunately as research has shown, many men refuse to undergo that painful process. Finally, many men don’t have listening skills at all. They think that they do……but they are busy to hear themselves. :biggrinjester: Then they are surprised that the partner become cold.
I wish it were that easy. Well, I don’t believe in any shortcut. I did and I spent a considerable time to look for a shortcut…….without any success. :lol: Religion or spiritual teachings don’t have the same impact upon us as it had 100 years ago. We have sexual freedom, yet most people don’t have fulfilling relationships. You put too much emphasis on sex but the most passionate experience will be gone fast if people are not mature. By maturity I mean that people don’t build codependent relationships and spend their time to control each other or use all energy to mange anxiety in relationships. Second, people need to get their bodies back and feel all feelings. They need to know themselves and to have the ability to communicate their needs and feelings. I don’t want to sound sexist, but unfortunately, most men don’t have any clue how to express their feelings. They were programmed to be macho man without showing vulnerability. As a result of programming, many men are emotionally numb. It is a huge barrier as to understand another human being, we have to understand them on emotional level that is we need to feel their feelings. It is not true that men are not capable of achieving high level of emotional awareness or developing a six sense to intuit others feelings. My best teachers into the realm of emotional awareness were men. Love and passion is gone if people don’t understand each other. The name of the game is personal growth, and unfortunately as research has shown, many men refuse to undergo that painful process. Finally, many men don’t have listening skills at all. They think that they do……but they are busy to hear themselves. :biggrinjester: Then they are surprised that the partner become cold.
I second your thought that there is no shortcut to relationship building and this is not a tradeoff and it is something of the heart, of the feeling that goes beyond a blueprint. It happens and we often flow with it. I do not believe it happens only through efforts and though we cannot dispose of efforts, but it has more to do with our emotional mind. A man and of course woman too without emotion or passion driven only by their intelligence do not pair off appropriately in relationships and as you said the partner becomes cold once the flair for passion or sexual stimulation is exhausted. That is why most men after acts of sex shrink back whereas women want the more intimate relationship after the act. Sex is something man wants to satiate his sudden shakes, a kind of spasm that happens with his genitals and its concentration is there more in his case and in woman' s case it is all over her body and that is why they want more caressing and kissing prior to lovemaking to reach a state of climax.
I do not hate humans no matter what sexes they come of and in fact some men and of course women too tend to behave differently and they may stand at odd with our particular choices or bends of minds but it does not mean they are really mean and base. Sometimes their societies or the values they have inherited from their parents or friends become some decisive factors and more often than not they fail to overcome those influences and despite their freewill they fall victims to their circumstances.
I always want to look at humans through an unblemished lens and study them when they are not under a particular sway of thoughts or influences but I know it is rare and all our thoughts and communications are bits and pieces of what we have experienced or garnered from others and as long as our thoughts revolve around this periphery we cannot understand each other.
I second your thought that there is no shortcut to relationship building and this is not a tradeoff and it is something of the heart, of the feeling that goes beyond a blueprint. It happens and we often flow with it. I do not believe it happens only through efforts and though we cannot dispose of efforts, but it has more to do with our emotional mind. A man and of course woman too without emotion or passion driven only by their intelligence do not pair off appropriately in relationships and as you said the partner becomes cold once the flair for passion or sexual stimulation is exhausted. That is why most men after acts of sex shrink back whereas women want the more intimate relationship after the act. Sex is something man wants to satiate his sudden shakes, a kind of spasm that happens with his genitals and its concentration is there more in his case and in woman' s case it is all over her body and that is why they want more caressing and kissing prior to lovemaking to reach a state of climax.
I do not hate humans no matter what sexes they come of and in fact some men and of course women too tend to behave differently and they may stand at odd with our particular choices or bends of minds but it does not mean they are really mean and base. Sometimes their societies or the values they have inherited from their parents or friends become some decisive factors and more often than not they fail to overcome those influences and despite their freewill they fall victims to their circumstances.
I always want to look at humans through an unblemished lens and study them when they are not under a particular sway of thoughts or influences but I know it is rare and all our thoughts and communications are bits and pieces of what we have experienced or garnered from others and as long as our thoughts revolve around this periphery we cannot understand each other.
Hehehe…….Osho you scrupulously avoided to respond to the issues I have addressed. My friend, you are fooling yourself thinking that you know what women want. If you want to know….you need to ask and listen. :lol:
You are making a mistake I emphasized in my previous post. You focus too much on the act of love making. You need to ask why women lose interest and become cold. Haven’t you heard many jokes about women getting a migraine…….....just before they go to bed? :rofl: Think about that and we may stop walking in the circle.
I hope that you didn’t get from my post that I hate men. They are too cute ….to hate them but to love them. Being honest has nothing to do with hatred. I am aware of issues that women have that result from programming. We are not free from it either but women are more courageous to grow and to challenge negative programming.
Paulclem
12-29-2011, 07:43 PM
I knew that you are going to show up here. :lol: You don’t contemplate your idea in meditation. The purpose is to empty one’s mind. Some people sit quietly while others do chant but the result is the same. Empty mind. Bronte Baxter’s spent 17 years studying and practicing Maharishi and I couldn’t say it better.
Hi ftil. I did respond but I've edited my comment out. I feel I wasn't responding in the right spirit butting into your converstion with Osho, and so I withdraw.
Hi ftil. I did respond but I've edited my comment out. I feel I wasn't responding in the right spirit butting into your converstion with Osho, and so I withdraw.
Oh, you are welcome to our discussion about relationships. Buddhism or meditation is not a part of it though. ;)
Paulclem
12-30-2011, 11:26 AM
Oh, you are welcome to our discussion about relationships. Buddhism or meditation is not a part of it though. ;)
Thank you
Hehehe…….Osho you scrupulously avoided to respond to the issues I have addressed. My friend, you are fooling yourself thinking that you know what women want. If you want to know….you need to ask and listen. :lol:
You are making a mistake I emphasized in my previous post. You focus too much on the act of love making. You need to ask why women lose interest and become cold. Haven’t you heard many jokes about women getting a migraine…….....just before they go to bed? :rofl: Think about that and we may stop walking in the circle.
I hope that you didn’t get from my post that I hate men. They are too cute ….to hate them but to love them. Being honest has nothing to do with hatred. I am aware of issues that women have that result from programming. We are not free from it either but women are more courageous to grow and to challenge negative programming.
I am not scrupulously avoiding anything and why should I after all since you have not raised an issue that I feel uncomfortable to answer and I am not fooling myself into thinking the way you assume and you know me from what I write and that is a very little part of me. What is more, our writing cannot manifest what we are in person, physically and personally. I am somewhat liberal and as you know through our conversation I discuss any issue that comes our way and I do not pre-think how I must behave. I like Lawrence for his straightforwardness and I too choose to avert presenting myself in my double roles. I do present myself the way I am, not fabricating or layering what I feel and I am open inside out and maybe sometimes my prejudices , kind of leanings I may have to some country or culture specific things surface to what I say. I talk about sex, romance, love spontaneously as I feel not the way I am under somebody's or ideas' sway. Yes women outgrow negative programming, if they are bold enough but most are under the swing of what their parents have taught them. Parents too are not free of some bigotries and how can the child be free from such preconceptions to behave rationally?
I am not scrupulously avoiding anything and why should I after all since you have not raised an issue that I feel uncomfortable to answer and I am not fooling myself into thinking the way you assume and you know me from what I write and that is a very little part of me. What is more, our writing cannot manifest what we are in person, physically and personally. I am somewhat liberal and as you know through our conversation I discuss any issue that comes our way and I do not pre-think how I must behave. I like Lawrence for his straightforwardness and I too choose to avert presenting myself in my double roles. I do present myself the way I am, not fabricating or layering what I feel and I am open inside out and maybe sometimes my prejudices , kind of leanings I may have to some country or culture specific things surface to what I say. I talk about sex, romance, love spontaneously as I feel not the way I am under somebody's or ideas' sway. Yes women outgrow negative programming, if they are bold enough but most are under the swing of what their parents have taught them. Parents too are not free of some bigotries and how can the child be free from such preconceptions to behave rationally?
Happy New Year.
Hey, I don’t make any assumptions that I know you. There is a proverb that says,” To get to know another person, one need to eat a barrel of salt” It takes a long time to do so. :lol: I was taking about men in general that many men don’t have skills how to express their feelings as well as how to listen. Don’t be upset but I have noticed in our previous conversations that you spoke on behalf of women. You are not the only one, please don’t take it personally. But it is important as many women have voiced their concerns. BTW, M. Rosenberg has written a great book about communication, tilted “Nonviolent communication”. It is a really eye opening as it teaches how to listen and express feelings. Many relationships could avoid unnecessary pain if they had those skills.
I like your spontaneity and openness. Nothing else makes me losing interest as dishonesty and lack of spontaneity. I am not fond of robots ……no matter how eloquent they are. :biggrinjester:
It is true how parents can teach their children if they have never questioned and challenged their programming. Women are more courageous to outgrow programming than men and you can’t argue about that as vast research are available. In your opinion, how men can challenge their programming?
Happy New Year.
Hey, I don’t make any assumptions that I know you. There is a proverb that says,” To get to know another person, one need to eat a barrel of salt” It takes a long time to do so. :lol: I was taking about men in general that many men don’t have skills how to express their feelings as well as how to listen. Don’t be upset but I have noticed in our previous conversations that you spoke on behalf of women. You are not the only one, please don’t take it personally. But it is important as many women have voiced their concerns. BTW, M. Rosenberg has written a great book about communication, tilted “Nonviolent communication”. It is a really eye opening as it teaches how to listen and express feelings. Many relationships could avoid unnecessary pain if they had those skills.
I like your spontaneity and openness. Nothing else makes me losing interest as dishonesty and lack of spontaneity. I am not fond of robots ……no matter how eloquent they are. :biggrinjester:
It is true how parents can teach their children if they have never questioned and challenged their programming. Women are more courageous to outgrow programming than men and you can’t argue about that as vast research are available. In your opinion, how men can challenge their programming?
Happy New Year to you too, my friend,
You have raised a question I always likes to discuss. I do not think men can challenge programming and it is in fact a very tough job. I do not think I have challenged it ever though I am a bit iconoclastic myself. I hate some of our much treasured values. I do not even believe in the institution of marriage since through it we have to cut the wings of imagination. Our civilization has limited or crippled us fencing off our flights, our impulses, our drives and our dreams and that is why people become depressed. One has to love and make love within certain boundaries. I am not advocating free sex. Sex is one of our most in fact the most suppressed urge and when one cannot fulfill it one remains depressed. Our social setups are delimiting factors. I have read a little about matrimonial society in which the female chooses the male to impregnate her or if any urge pops inside her. Since life comes from her she used to be a dominant figure. In due course man through his muscular prowess has dominance over her and thus started ruling. Even today we have a society and I have come across it wherein a woman is free to marry several men and they sleep under the same roof if not together in the same bed.
Yes Hinduism, Christianity or Islam or Buddhism have framed our rational faculties and we tend to behave in a particular way and all these religions have shaped the way we live in society. For instance Hinduism has empowered man and women were deemed lower of birth, the recent movement in India against one of the Sutras of the Bhagbad Gita in which men were considered lower or baser by birth. Even women were burned to death in the tradition of Sati and those who coming and spreading from that family tree tend to behave accordingly with man's supremacy over every family decision. The same is true of Islam in some countries wherein women are expected to be perfect virginally to the extent of having their hymens unbroken and whereas men were never questioned about their chastity. In fact I again may sound advocating women. Not at all. In fact all I am trying to say is there are so many holes in our cultural fabrics and social norms and standards and they had once upon a time been designed to make them suitable and convenient to a particular class of people. People had, still they do have a strong faith in scriptural texts for example the Ramayana and the Mahabharata have always been a treasure trove of Hindu cultures.
Having talked at somewhat length all I want to defy is our social institutions and following what we have been told to do has crippled ourselves and we murder our powerful vital urges and shrink back from doing what our heart wants or we do not listen to the powerful emotions, impulses or drives that vibrate inside us. Our conditioned mind censors them.
To be honest, I don’t believe in institution of marriage either considering the fact that only 1 % of couple who have been married for 25 years have deep intimacy. Really depressing statistics. You are saying that freeing impulses and drives is a remedy for relationships. I would argue that suppressing our impulses or drives cause depression. It is much more complex problem than that. For example, when married women are depressed it is not as a result of unfulfilled sex. Symptoms related to depression are seen as the outcome of socialization and overly rigid adherence to stereotyped feminine roles. Several studies found that “housewife” who lacked a certain level of intimacy in martial relationships were the most depressed group of women. Depression is also associated with imbalance in relationships and the risk for depression is 13 greater when marital discord accompanies social isolation. Finally, the prevalence of depression is higher for women than men. It is not about sex and drives at all.
Unless men open up to the idea that women have different needs and start listening and understanding, people will blame religion, upbringing, or culture. Yes, religions have played an important roles, shaping and giving moral codes. In ancient Greece or Rome, gods raped and abducted women. Zeus abducted and raped a boy. It is almost impossible to get to know all their sexual affairs. Different standards and moral codes than that of Christianity or Islam. We can also look how women were treated in Buddhism or Hindu. But religions are not responsible for all the problems. In fact, focusing our attention on religions takes us away from the more profound influences. Love and sex have been a tool of control and mass manipulation. I have been reading Giordano Bruno’s On Magic and A General Account of Bonding ( The De vinculis in genere). His concepts of “chains” through love and sex has been successfully used through centuries through art, music, poetry, or movies to manipulate and control us. I haven’t finished Bruno’s book and I need to read more to get a deeper understanding of the mechanism of magic in binding.
You may ask yourself from where your concept of relationships and its fulfillment comes? Does religion plays the important roles or books and movies or psychology that shapes your ideas what people should do to have fulfillment and satisfaction.
Second, everything may be fine with your theory when people are young but the problem with fulfillment starts when men reach dreadful forties. If sex is the only means of having satisfying relationships, it means that there is no single men on earth who can have a fulfilling and satisfying relationship after 40’s....:reddevil: It is not true at all and 1% is lucky. It would be very depressing for men to think that way. I hope that you can take a serious look at your beliefs regarding relationships.
The timing of the capacity to be bound. In different seasons and ages, one and the same thing can be bonded in various ways, and different things are not related to one and the same bond in the same way. Nor are wholes always recomposed in the same way. From this we can point out that someone who was easy going and showy as a young man becomes a more stable and prudent adult, while an old man is more suspicious and morose, and a very old man is full of blame and loathing.
The number of things that can be bound. Thinking persons turn away from sensible things and are bound by divine things. Pleasure seekers descend through vision to the abundances of touching. Moralists are attracted by the amusement of conversation. The first are heroes, the second are natural, and the third are rational. The first are higher, the second lower, the third in between. The first are said to be worthy of the heavens, the second of life, the third of feeling. The first ascend to God, the second cling to bodies, the third move away from one extreme and approach the other.
The degrees of things that can be bound. Children are less bound by their natural feelings, because their nature is absorbed in growth and is disturbed by great changes, and all their nutrition is given over to growth and the structuring of the individual. But they clearly begin to be open to being bound in the fourteenth year, for even though at that age they are still involved in growth, their rate of growth is not as fast and as great as when they were children. And in the stable period of adulthood, men have a greater strength in their semen and, as a result, seem to be more subject to being bound. Furthermore, adolescents and young men seem to be more sexually excited for the reason that they are on fire for a long time because of the novelty of this pleasure; because the passages through which the semen passes are narrower, the wetness gushes forth with a more delightful pleasure. And as a result of the sexual itch which arises from this pressure, they are more delighted and liberated. But bonds are more difficult in older men, whose powers are half dead, whose organs and passages are spent, and whose semen is not abundant. Precisely the same thing is found proportionally in the other emotions which have an analogy or contrast or dependence on the passion of love.
Excerpt from Cause, Principle, and Unity. An Essay on Magic. Gordano Bruno
To be honest, I don’t believe in institution of marriage either considering the fact that only 1 % of couple who have been married for 25 years have deep intimacy. Really depressing statistics. You are saying that freeing impulses and drives is a remedy for relationships. I would argue that suppressing our impulses or drives cause depression. It is much more complex problem than that. For example, when married women are depressed it is not as a result of unfulfilled sex. Symptoms related to depression are seen as the outcome of socialization and overly rigid adherence to stereotyped feminine roles. Several studies found that “housewife” who lacked a certain level of intimacy in martial relationships were the most depressed group of women. Depression is also associated with imbalance in relationships and the risk for depression is 13 greater when marital discord accompanies social isolation. Finally, the prevalence of depression is higher for women than men. It is not about sex and drives at all.
Unless men open up to the idea that women have different needs and start listening and understanding, people will blame religion, upbringing, or culture. Yes, religions have played an important roles, shaping and giving moral codes. In ancient Greece or Rome, gods raped and abducted women. Zeus abducted and raped a boy. It is almost impossible to get to know all their sexual affairs. Different standards and moral codes than that of Christianity or Islam. We can also look how women were treated in Buddhism or Hindu. But religions are not responsible for all the problems. In fact, focusing our attention on religions takes us away from the more profound influences. Love and sex have been a tool of control and mass manipulation. I have been reading Giordano Bruno’s On Magic and A General Account of Bonding ( The De vinculis in genere). His concepts of “chains” through love and sex has been successfully used through centuries through art, music, poetry, or movies to manipulate and control us. I haven’t finished Bruno’s book and I need to read more to get a deeper understanding of the mechanism of magic in binding.
You may ask yourself from where your concept of relationships and its fulfillment comes? Does religion plays the important roles or books and movies or psychology that shapes your ideas what people should do to have fulfillment and satisfaction.
Second, everything may be fine with your theory when people are young but the problem with fulfillment starts when men reach dreadful forties. If sex is the only means of having satisfying relationships, it means that there is no single men on earth who can have a fulfilling and satisfying relationship after 40’s....:reddevil: It is not true at all and 1% is lucky. It would be very depressing for men to think that way. I hope that you can take a serious look at your beliefs regarding relationships.
I find this particular post of your greatly illuminating and in fact you got me to a point I have never thought. Yes housewives are some of the most neglected beings in society. I have seen a few families where women were hooked inside while their spouses, mostly high caliber professionals or businesspersons flirt with coworkers and they have the reason that compel their wives to hush up for their wives are at advantage financially and some of their ends are easily gratified and socially they are kind of upward. Inside them, however must be a void and maybe my analysis fails. But I know for sure some husbands take advantage of their male prowess society has bestowed on them since time immemorial. I like this A General Account of Bonding assertion. In fact I find some of the deeply socially and culturally suppressed human instincts, as you have beautifully put forth through another thread manifest in myths and legends. Sometimes I find my thoughts inexpressible in the world I am living in and they are discordant thoughts with what people take to be or the formulaic cine way. People have inherent differences and through a spurt of emotional and biological needs they abruptly get together and have physical intimacies and their chemistry match and things may go together for a while as long as the flow of desire has not dried up and yet in a while their desires do not become irresolute, vacillating here and there and yes I maybe mistaken in my assumptions and yet I am somewhere an impulsively driven being and in fact fail to understand the intricacy of relationship and that the 1 % successful men and women are really in harmony with one another is also questionable. I do not know why I often feel we through marriages bond together on the spur of the moment and in a while the thrill of being together, the warmth of cuddling, touching, caressing and fondling abates and one become sexually repulsive and the ones who still continue is for some other purposes, maybe after that the social relationship becomes profound. I feel among those who live thereafter with a seemingly intimate relationship is for the simple reason that if they do not cluster together they will have to live forlornly in this competitive world where everything is on sale. At the same time when two humans live together for a long period of time they may know a lot about themselves, their likes and dislikes, their interests, passions, limitations and the like and the same cannot be possible if they enter into a new relationship.
I am simply confused and though a lot of things have come to be disclosed to me at this point of time yet there are many things I have to learn about relationship.
One question I am still finding an answer of is what really connects two humans, male and female?
cafolini
01-02-2012, 11:57 AM
I find this particular post of your greatly illuminating and in fact you got me to a point I have never thought. Yes housewives are some of the most neglected beings in society. I have seen a few families where women were hooked inside while their spouses, mostly high caliber professionals or businesspersons flirt with coworkers and they have the reason that compel their wives to hush up for their wives are at advantage financially and some of their ends are easily gratified and socially they are kind of upward. Inside them, however must be a void and maybe my analysis fails. But I know for sure some husbands take advantage of their male prowess society has bestowed on them since time immemorial. I like this A General Account of Bonding assertion. In fact I find some of the deeply socially and culturally suppressed human instincts, as you have beautifully put forth through another thread manifest in myths and legends. Sometimes I find my thoughts inexpressible in the world I am living in and they are discordant thoughts with what people take to be or the formulaic cine way. People have inherent differences and through a spurt of emotional and biological needs they abruptly get together and have physical intimacies and their chemistry match and things may go together for a while as long as the flow of desire has not dried up and yet in a while their desires do not become irresolute, vacillating here and there and yes I maybe mistaken in my assumptions and yet I am somewhere an impulsively driven being and in fact fail to understand the intricacy of relationship and that the 1 % successful men and women are really in harmony with one another is also questionable. I do not know why I often feel we through marriages bond together on the spur of the moment and in a while the thrill of being together, the warmth of cuddling, touching, caressing and fondling abates and one become sexually repulsive and the ones who still continue is for some other purposes, maybe after that the social relationship becomes profound. I feel among those who live thereafter with a seemingly intimate relationship is for the simple reason that if they do not cluster together they will have to live forlornly in this competitive world where everything is on sale. At the same time when two humans live together for a long period of time they may know a lot about themselves, their likes and dislikes, their interests, passions, limitations and the like and the same cannot be possible if they enter into a new relationship.
I am simply confused and though a lot of things have come to be disclosed to me at this point of time yet there are many things I have to learn about relationship.
One question I am still finding an answer of is what really connects two humans, male and female?
Friendship. As differences arrive that seem impassable, ability to be friends is the only connection. And as The Prophet once adviced, space for growth and encouragement for differences and the enhancement of them through unending friendship. Fidelity is not the necessary parameter. Loyalty is.
Originally posted by Osho:
In fact I find some of the deeply socially and culturally suppressed human instincts, as you have beautifully put forth through another thread manifest in myths and legends.
You are kidding, aren’t you? Suppressed human instincts……Nice explanations for gods behaviors to be free to rape goddesses and women. Or perhaps, cult of Astrate that required to perform prostitution to worship her. No thanks no. :yikes: I don’t know if you can’t see it …or you choose not to see it because what you are saying is the oppression of women. So, we may ask a question who wrote those myths.
Herodotus, Histories 1. 199 :
"The foulest Babylonian custom is that which compels every woman of the land to sit in the temple of Aphrodite and have intercourse with some stranger once in her life . . . most sit down in the sacred plot of Aphrodite [Mylitta] . . . Once a woman has taken her place there, she does not go away to her home before some stranger has cast money into her lap, and had intercourse with her outside the temple; but while he casts the money, he must say, ‘I invite you in the name of Mylitta’ (that is the Assyrian name for Aphrodite)."
I maybe mistaken in my assumptions and yet I am somewhere an impulsively driven being and in fact fail to understand the intricacy of relationship and that the 1 % successful men and women are really in harmony with one another is also questionable.
Are you questioning that fact that 1% only have deep and fulfilling relationships or you think that nobody has deep and fulfilling relationships. If it is the latter, you may find a vast research that shows that only small percentage of people have deep and intimate relationships.
I like this A General Account of Bonding assertion.
Well, if we look at the bonding as a way to control and manipulate masses……it is not a good concept at all. I will be busy to study magic. I had a wrong ideas about magic or I would say a limited concept of magic. :biggrin5:
One question I am still finding an answer of is what really connects two humans, male and female?
Everybody needs to find their own answer. But it means that we need to free our minds from external influences that program us what being a human means. :ihih:
You are kidding, aren’t you? Suppressed human instincts……Nice explanations for gods behaviors to be free to rape goddesses and women. Or perhaps, cult of Astrate that required to perform prostitution to worship her. No thanks no. :yikes: I don’t know if you can’t see it …or you choose not to see it because what you are saying is the oppression of women. So, we may ask a question who wrote those myths.
Are you questioning that fact that 1% only have deep and fulfilling relationships or you think that nobody has deep and fulfilling relationships. If it is the latter, you may find a vast research that shows that only small percentage of people have deep and intimate relationships.
Well, if we look at the bonding as a way to control and manipulate masses……it is not a good concept at all. I will be busy to study magic. I had a wrong ideas about magic or I would say a limited concept of magic. :biggrin5:
Everybody needs to find their own answer. But it means that we need to free our minds from external influences that program us what being a human means. :ihih:
I am not kidding; in fact I am questioning and I am clueless, and wonder at human situations. I do not want to presuppose anything and of course I had things, vast sources of influences. Influences are everywhere and I simply cannot dodge them and even while conversing with you now across the globe your thoughts are swaying my mind and not that even if I mostly am critical of your thoughts and want to press forward my own notion .
This is what happens with me, with many others, a little bit with every mortal under the sun. Your example of Babylon Gods, their clouts and raucous rule over their subjects is revealing and yes the rest of other cultures is also not short of such accounts, and I have read Buddha clasped in sexual statures in Tantric books and Hindu temples are not running shorn of such statues where intercourse has been a way towards attainment or Nirvana. On the other hand we are told to internalize lessons to stave off acts of sex. When I was somewhat younger and come across a beautiful girl I had to put off the idea of touching her, not to mention kissing her as this is a sin and I was told I have to go through an entire marriage ceremony to engage myself in that act and that is how suppression takes hold of us,
Fertility culture in some pagan tribes were something Judo-Christianity had a kind of censored and women had no roles in Christianity and though there are plenty of evidence to endorse the fact that Jesus had a wife and he had a sexual intercourse his followers had negated it callously presenting the image of Jesus as somebody cold and insensible.
It seems this is my advocacy for free sex. Not at all. Sex is an intimate relationship, something that connects two humans, at times threesome too and this is my sheer observations of phenomena and not my inferences in any way.
. Fidelity is not the necessary parameter. Loyalty is.
I like this subtle difference between fidelity and locality. I side with Loyalty
Fertility culture in some pagan tribes were something Judo-Christianity had a kind of censored and women had no roles in Christianity and though there are plenty of evidence to endorse the fact that Jesus had a wife and he had a sexual intercourse his followers had negated it callously presenting the image of Jesus as somebody cold and insensible.
LOL! There is a number of scholars who were laughing at that theory. I don’t believe it either. I was laughing when I read about Gnostics and their interpretation of Jesus teachings. BTW, Gnostics cults with its sexual practices were sickening. From promoting homosexuality, sex with minors, and bestiality to prostitution. Who with a clear mind would take seriously their teachings? I pass……I leave it to them. :brow:
Why don’t we leave religion aside? I have my tread about religion and mythology….... I am fully satisfied and I don't like to mix it as it takes our attention from what is important.
Let’s focus on relationships.
When I was somewhat younger and come across a beautiful girl I had to put off the idea of touching her, not to mention kissing her as this is a sin and I was told I have to go through an entire marriage ceremony to engage myself in that act and that is how suppression takes hold of us,
Trust me, not all men and women go through that. Please don’t forget that people have different upbringing. You may benefit from reading Giordano Bruno’s book about magic and bonding. He was quite perceptive into the human nature and human desires. Even though he had in mind control and manipulation, his observations are thought provoking. It is an interesting addition to psychology as he looked at human nature from a different angle.
People are different and their desires are different. Think about what would happen, if natural met with moralist. Funny names that Bruno used but the essence is important. If a person who is sensual and loves touch meet with a person who is more moved be mind and entertaining conversation, no matter what sensual person will do, he or she is not going to change a moralist. My point is that we need to know ourselves first before we even think about having a relationship. I am not talking about romance or sex as it has nothing to do with having relationship but short lived, let say, sexual encounter. Therefore, thinking that sexual passion is a remedy for a relationship discord is very misleading. I wish I could create a fourth group that is a mix of naturalist and moralist where both passion and mind are of equal importance. :lol:
A few more quotes from Bruno’s book that fit into our discussion.
Humans are bound in many ways. Of all the things which bind, certainly more of them bind humans than brute animals, and more of them bind those who have an active character than those who are dull witted; those who are well endowed in their faculties and powers are aware of more details, circumstances and purposes, and thus, they are moved by more desires.
How the senses are panderers for the bonding agent. Dull witted people are bound by lusts, which are aroused infrequently and by natural impulses, and which are few in number and limited to base nourishments. Such people are not soothed by eloquent speech, nor are they won over by beauty, music, painting or by any of the other attractions of nature.
Why only one bond is not enough. As I am bound by more things, I become aware of the many things which bind me, for there are many different kinds of beauty. Thus, I am inflamed and bound in a relationship by one thing in one way and by other things in other ways. If every relationship were reduced to one, then perhaps one thing would be welcomed for all purposes and for all occasions. But up to now, this has not happened in nature, which has spread about many bonds of beauty, happiness, goodness, and the various contraries of these dispositions, and which widely distributes them separately according to the numerous types of matter. But it does sometimes happen that a person is so tied to one object that his awareness of other things is weakened, overwhelmed and suppressed, either because of the dullness of the senses which are blind to and neglectful of all other things, or because one bond is so strong that it weakens and distorts him. But this is extraordinary and happens rarely and in only a few cases. For example, there are some whose souls seem to be so carried away by the hope of eternal life and by a vivid faith and credulousness, and seem to be so separated from the body in some way, and so strongly bound and controlled by some object in their fantasies and in their opinions, that they do not seem to be aware of the most horrible torments.
What is bound more easily. A person who is more truly human is bound most strongly by the most worthy things, and he prefers much more to seek out more worthy things than to possess base things, for certainly, we are easily irritated by base things and more ardently seek for things which we do not easily attain.
LOL! There is a number of scholars who were laughing at that theory. I don’t believe it either. I was laughing when I read about Gnostics and their interpretation of Jesus teachings. BTW, Gnostics cults with its sexual practices were sickening. From promoting homosexuality, sex with minors, and bestiality to prostitution. Who with a clear mind would take seriously their teachings? I pass……I leave it to them. :brow:
Why don’t we leave religion aside? I have my tread about religion and mythology….... I am fully satisfied and I don't like to mix it as it takes our attention from what is important.
Let’s focus on relationships.
Trust me, not all men and women go through that. Please don’t forget that people have different upbringing. You may benefit from reading Giordano Bruno’s book about magic and bonding. He was quite perceptive into the human nature and human desires. Even though he had in mind control and manipulation, his observations are thought provoking. It is an interesting addition to psychology as he looked at human nature from a different angle.
People are different and their desires are different. Think about what would happen, if natural met with moralist. Funny names that Bruno used but the essence is important. If a person who is sensual and loves touch meet with a person who is more moved be mind and entertaining conversation, no matter what sensual person will do, he or she is not going to change a moralist. My point is that we need to know ourselves first before we even think about having a relationship. I am not talking about romance or sex as it has nothing to do with having relationship but short lived, let say, sexual encounter. Therefore, thinking that sexual passion is a remedy for a relationship discord is very misleading. I wish I could create a fourth group that is a mix of naturalist and moralist where both passion and mind are of equal importance. :lol:
A few more quotes from Bruno’s book that fit into our discussion.
I like the idea of looking at human nature from a different angle, maybe the book you have recommended may help but I doubt I may come across that book at my local bookshops. I do not think we can look at life uninfluenced by what surrounds us and maybe if go on a long journey and come across some tribes who have still conserved their antiquity unfed by modern civilization. I in fact want to visit some of the tribal societies in future and want to witness their life structures. I have already come across a matrimonial society in a Himalayan village which I have already posted earlier. Books can help but there are many books that counterbalance ideas and as a result we fail to infer at the end of the day. Maybe if we can metamorphose and be a bird we can fly inside human settlements to see what really goes under their roofs. Men take different faces or natures at nights though they cocoon themselves in their civilizations in the day time. I want to see their beastly natures, both men and women in togetherness. I want to know their impulses and how they manifest in their freedoms.
Hey, you don’t even need to go to the library. You can find it online. Well, books are helpful if they can open new perspective. The bottom line that we need to find own answers. I would not take seriously Lady Chatterley's lover, for example. The reason that I suggested that you read because you would have a deeper understanding of complexity of human nature. I also want to understand the mechanism of magic in binding to find a way how we can free our minds. In the end of the day, free mind is an ultimate goal to have in order to find own truth and recognize manipulations. We may read books, watch others or other civilizations but we need to find who we are and there is no shortcut to do so. :wink5: We have to live own lives, embrace all strengths, weaknesses, and passions and learn from our mistakes, otherwise, we will be puppet intimating others. I wouldn't recommend that to anybody. :hand:
Hey, you don’t even need to go to the library. You can find it online. Well, books are helpful if they can open new perspective. The bottom line that we need to find own answers. I would not take seriously Lady Chatterley's lover, for example. The reason that I suggested that you read because you would have a deeper understanding of complexity of human nature. I also want to understand the mechanism of magic in binding to find a way how we can free our minds. In the end of the day, free mind is an ultimate goal to have in order to find own truth and recognize manipulations. We may read books, watch others or other civilizations but we need to find who we are and there is no shortcut to do so. :wink5: We have to live own lives, embrace all strengths, weaknesses, and passions and learn from our mistakes, otherwise, we will be puppet intimating others. I wouldn't recommend that to anybody. :hand:
Now I accessed the book you have recommended online and most of it is in Latin and I found some in English versions too and I believe it gives me something I am looking for.Yes exactly I want to free myself from all influences and in fact I am fed up with this do and do not stuff in society and I want undo all else. In point of fact as long as I am society I have to coordinate whether or not I like. There are people, their beliefs, values, manners and mores I cannot forgo submissiveness though I know this is just a mask. For example I may out of some impulse want to go nude. My rational mind will censor me and I get hooked.
I just want to experiment with something, something undefined, unsolicited in human settlements. Maybe the books you have recommended of Bruno may help to open my eyes to different realities and different dimensions of truth. I am not after sex though, admittedly this is one of the strong passions I have to deal with everyday, I have many passions, many questions and urges and that make me take different and at times exotic ventures into some domains that are rather mysterious and bizarre and I want to take them despite the fact that I get singled out from society
It is good that your rational mind protect you not to go nude in public. After all, we are living in society and we need to respect others as people may be opposed for their children to see a naked man on the street. Inner freedom doesn’t mean that we do whatever we want without taking into a consideration the needs of others. But at the same time, inner freedom means that we are not threatened by others expectations nor we are threatened by their response to our expectations. When people are threatened by others expectations, they compromise their truth and put a mask to fit, to belong, be accepted, and approved. The challenge is to be who we are, yet respect others needs without changing or controlling them. Otherwise, people will invest all their energy to change others and their beliefs so that they don’t face judgment or rejection, yet they will do what they want. Very immature, indeed, but many people fit into that category.
I can understand that having strong sexual passions ……can be a pain.lol You need to find a partner who will match your passions. Don’t look for a spiritual person………you may avoid unnecessary frustrations. :reddevil:
It is good that your rational mind protect you not to go nude in public. After all, we are living in society and we need to respect others as people may be opposed for their children to see a naked man on the street. Inner freedom doesn’t mean that we do whatever we want without taking into a consideration the needs of others. But at the same time, inner freedom means that we are not threatened by others expectations nor we are threatened by their response to our expectations. When people are threatened by others expectations, they compromise their truth and put a mask to fit, to belong, be accepted, and approved. The challenge is to be who we are, yet respect others needs without changing or controlling them. Otherwise, people will invest all their energy to change others and their beliefs so that they don’t face judgment or rejection, yet they will do what they want. Very immature, indeed, but many people fit into that category.
I can understand that having strong sexual passions ……can be a pain.lol You need to find a partner who will match your passions. Don’t look for a spiritual person………you may avoid unnecessary frustrations. :reddevil:
I am essentially a dreamer; I love dreaming and in fact I build up things on imaginations and I often suffered for this bend of mind. I like poetry immensely and one part of me is I never can stand the pain of the other I am across and my eyes become teary in a while. If I watch a movie or a tragic play I cry over every tragic happening. If become happy it becomes kind of impulsive, brimful and I cannot contain it. That is why I like the emotional stuff and read such sentimental rubbishes though there is little to enlighten me intellectually. I have urges and I could flirt with any women and yet I become kind Platonic and think sex is something passing, the joy of it is transitory and after a certain moment all we need is hearts, feelings and passions. I confess that every beautiful object that comes across me arouses me briefly and I feel as if I have to crush the object of beauty.
I am a social being and I cannot get out of its boundary and I have to comply with the standards and norms set for me and I cannot have multiple relationships though I often have this desire even something for threesome but I know from an ethical lens this is dirty to have sex with someone other than the one oneself is in love. In fact I am a kind of naturalist and I take kind of animalistic desires and I know sleeping with multiple people is not unscrupulous and yet I know our social fabrics is designed in such a way one has to hook oneself to a certain one and that makes sex a taboo and restricts one to one person and that is how family values are born and retained.
I enjoy mythology and your thread on this is stimulating and I feel I belong to a world of mythologies and my passions fly over to moments when passions manifested in love, sex and flirtations, some of the dirty parts like molestations and rapes apart. I like the classics for another reason that they wrote freely and unabatedly and though they seem melodramatic, erotic yet they express some of the truths we try to cover up. Of course some paintings go rapaciously presenting some of our inner feelings that mostly remain layered inside us.
Every potent human has a fiery desire, urges and fancies and our social parameters do not set them to realize his deep seated urges and at times they become manifest into rapes, molestations and the like, and they are considered culprits and they are not solely to blame for what they do but the entire social fabrics and the ethical threads that bind them or cripple them.
Every potent human has a fiery desire, urges and fancies and our social parameters do not set them to realize his deep seated urges and at times they become manifest into rapes, molestations and the like, and they are considered culprits and they are not solely to blame for what they do but the entire social fabrics and the ethical threads that bind them or cripple them
Everybody has desires but they are quite distinct depending on a person. We can’t forget that desires change with age and women have different desires then men. I don’t agree with your explanation of rape that is a result of a deep seated urges. I sent Freud with his theory to hell. :devil: I am not the only one.lol Yes, we are bombarded by messages of violence and rape in movies, music videos, or advertisement. It has a deep impact upon a psyche and I can’t deny it but human are not animals and need to take full responsibility for their actions and feelings. I have higher expectations from men. But there are men and there are boys who never want to grow, incapable of building deep and intimate relationships. Trust me, men get the best women. Boys get second or third category, and of course, they get bored or complain, wanting to have another relationship. But they never get the best. :ciappa: Those women who attract real men don’t set up for less. But it is fair as like attracts alike.
I enjoy mythology and your thread on this is stimulating and I feel I belong to a world of mythologies and my passions fly over to moments when passions manifested in love, sex and flirtations, some of the dirty parts like molestations and rapes apart. I like the classics for another reason that they wrote freely and unabatedly and though they seem melodramatic, erotic yet they express some of the truths we try to cover up. Of course some paintings go rapaciously presenting some of our inner feelings that mostly remain layered inside us.
I like mythology and religion for a very different reason. I love art and it makes more enjoyable to learn. Religion and mythology has always been a powerful tool to control masses. When we look at history , we see a cycle that repeats through ages. After medieval ages, humans entered a Renaissance and magic, Cabala and pseudo science played a big role. It has a big impact on art as the themes changed and mythology with nudity replaced religious art of medieval ages. After reading Giordano Bruno’s book as well a couple of books about the Renaissance magic and magicians such as Marcilio Ficino or Cornelius Agrippa, I have a different perspective on the art of Renaissance and it purpose and role to control and implement changes in psyche of people. Bruno knew it very well that images are the most import means of entering the unconsciousness. He was aware how images impress upon the unconscious mind, thus altering the behavior of the individual, often times against their will. In his work De Vinculus in Genere (Of Bonds in General) he daringly posits the idea that the ‘magician-psychologist’ him/herself can directly persuade the masses without any divine intervention whatsoever, again maintaining a humanist stance like Ficino. It is very freeing to see it.
Everybody has desires but they are quite distinct depending on a person. We can’t forget that desires change with age and women have different desires then men. I don’t agree with your explanation of rape that is a result of a deep seated urges. I sent Freud with his theory to hell. :devil: I am not the only one.lol Yes, we are bombarded by messages of violence and rape in movies, music videos, or advertisement. It has a deep impact upon a psyche and I can’t deny it but human are not animals and need to take full responsibility for their actions and feelings. I have higher expectations from men. But there are men and there are boys who never want to grow, incapable of building deep and intimate relationships. Trust me, men get the best women. Boys get second or third category, and of course, they get bored or complain, wanting to have another relationship. But they never get the best. :ciappa: Those women who attract real men don’t set up for less. But it is fair as like attracts alike.
I like mythology and religion for a very different reason. I love art and it makes more enjoyable to learn. Religion and mythology has always been a powerful tool to control masses. When we look at history , we see a cycle that repeats through ages. After medieval ages, humans entered a Renaissance and magic, Cabala and pseudo science played a big role. It has a big impact on art as the themes changed and mythology with nudity replaced religious art of medieval ages. After reading Giordano Bruno’s book as well a couple of books about the Renaissance magic and magicians such as Marcilio Ficino or Cornelius Agrippa, I have a different perspective on the art of Renaissance and it purpose and role to control and implement changes in psyche of people. Bruno knew it very well that images are the most import means of entering the unconsciousness. He was aware how images impress upon the unconscious mind, thus altering the behavior of the individual, often times against their will. In his work De Vinculus in Genere (Of Bonds in General) he daringly posits the idea that the ‘magician-psychologist’ him/herself can directly persuade the masses without any divine intervention whatsoever, again maintaining a humanist stance like Ficino. It is very freeing to see it.
Desires change with age, yes it seems, yet desires in fact remain intact and if they shift it is in a new form only. Think about a husband who has a passion for sex and yet the wife pushes of. He tries and tries using different techniques to get her turned on and cannot do it since if he does rather raucously it will be a variant of rape. The one and only choice he is left with is have someone out of the matrimonial relationship. Most women after birthing babies refrain from sexual indulgences and disappoint their spouses and men mostly have excess sex hormones and they are not culpable beings if they hunt for something outside to satisfy their natural impulses. Sex education is designed to understand and address one's own urges and the art of satisfying oneself and yet acts of sex is not one way traffic and one needs someone to have sex with save the vibrator. Women's urges are counteractive and it is mostly men get aroused first and women's roles will be reactive.
Well, I talked about desires that change with age. I quoted Bruno in a previous post as he as a man would have had a better understanding than I. lol I was talking about men who after 40’s lose their sexual prowess. Their desires are different then they were 10 or 20 years younger. Yes, it is fact them women may lose interest for sexual contact after having a child. It is temporary if woman has a deep and loving relationship. If not, they may switch their attention to their child to get fulfillment and gratification. It is not healthy either as it has a deep impact upon a child, particularly, a boy. A perfect example was Freud as he was involved in an intense emotional relationship with his mother. His genogram explains his problems that he carried into adult life. Too bad that for decades many psychiatrists believed a man who had a serious psychological problems himself.
Anyway, we have covered that subject. To be honest, we don’t have that much in common. I have a different idea about being a passionate and creative person who is fully capable of mature and deeply intimate relationship. I better go back to my study. I have many questions and I would love to find the answers.
I leave a floor for others to continue. I did lot’s of talking, but it has helped me to clarify my thoughts, particularly, after reading Bruno’s book. Thanks for conversation. :smile5:
Well, I talked about desires that change with age. I quoted Bruno in a previous post as he as a man would have had a better understanding than I. lol I was talking about men who after 40’s lose their sexual prowess. Their desires are different then they were 10 or 20 years younger. Yes, it is fact them women may lose interest for sexual contact after having a child. It is temporary if woman has a deep and loving relationship. If not, they may switch their attention to their child to get fulfillment and gratification. It is not healthy either as it has a deep impact upon a child, particularly, a boy. A perfect example was Freud as he was involved in an intense emotional relationship with his mother. His genogram explains his problems that he carried into adult life. Too bad that for decades many psychiatrists believed a man who had a serious psychological problems himself.
Anyway, we have covered that subject. To be honest, we don’t have that much in common. I have a different idea about being a passionate and creative person who is fully capable of mature and deeply intimate relationship. I better go back to my study. I have many questions and I would love to find the answers.
I leave a floor for others to continue. I did lot’s of talking, but it has helped me to clarify my thoughts, particularly, after reading Bruno’s book. Thanks for conversation. :smile5:
In fact I have had a wonderful conversation with you and this has in fact helped me understand something more about women. In fact no woman is free of maleness and no male is devoid of womanliness. We are not two different planets and though man comes from Mars and woman from Venus but both meet in person on Earth and both give in to each other and forget their differences and arrive at a certain point wherein they can be happy and intimate.
In fact I had more to learn from you than you from me and you have a vast resource and this has greatly helped me to visualize some of the hitherto unvisited dimensions of man and woman. I sounded brusquely uncouth and in fact I wanted to discuss some of the unsolicited topics and it was raised for the sheer curiosity of it and hardly such things can be illuminatingly discussed anywhere and I enjoyed the discussed and at the same time enlightened myself as well
blazeofglory
01-06-2012, 03:07 AM
Well, I talked about desires that change with age. I quoted Bruno in a previous post as he as a man would have had a better understanding than I. lol I was talking about men who after 40’s lose their sexual prowess. Their desires are different then they were 10 or 20 years younger. Yes, it is fact them women may lose interest for sexual contact after having a child. It is temporary if woman has a deep and loving relationship. If not, they may switch their attention to their child to get fulfillment and gratification. It is not healthy either as it has a deep impact upon a child, particularly, a boy. A perfect example was Freud as he was involved in an intense emotional relationship with his mother. His genogram explains his problems that he carried into adult life. Too bad that for decades many psychiatrists believed a man who had a serious psychological problems himself.
Anyway, we have covered that subject. To be honest, we don’t have that much in common. I have a different idea about being a passionate and creative person who is fully capable of mature and deeply intimate relationship. I better go back to my study. I have many questions and I would love to find the answers.
I leave a floor for others to continue. I did lot’s of talking, but it has helped me to clarify my thoughts, particularly, after reading Bruno’s book. Thanks for conversation. :smile5:
Do you recall I have often intercepted your mindboggling conversations and I was somewhat swayed by both of your deep insights and you had touched on some of the most sensitive issues that normally do not get raised for miscellaneous reasons. Both of you have no motives to hurt each other and behaved friendly. osho has referred to a book I too had the chance to read once in my school days and the talk carried to that length had much pertinence to what Lawrence had and his books were banned in the UK and was considered a variant of pornography but later on one of the great critics had acclaimed his books and then it gained wider popularity and today he stands as one of the few world class writers. Though I do not agree to some of his opinions I like the way he was daringly capable of raising some of the motives that remain deposited deep down.
Since you have invited some others too for discussion and I felt why I should not come in. Yet somewhere I feel the kind of intimate talks you and osho had seemed to have soured and with you disapproving of his thought, a little more openness and digression, but I see there is no hint of incursion in what he said.
I enjoy reading your conversation and wonder why this has to suddenly come to a halt. In fact humans have some differences and it is these differences that enable people to converse and in a world where people have no voice or difference passions will come to a blind alley.
In fact we on this forum share ideas and by that we enrich our intellectual capacities and fulfill our emotional needs and along with that build friendship and I hold the view that petty differences must not stand as roadblocks in that.
Originally posted by Blazeofglory:
Since you have invited some others too for discussion and I felt why I should not come in. Yet somewhere I feel the kind of intimate talks you and osho had seemed to have soured and with you disapproving of his thought, a little more openness and digression, but I see there is no hint of incursion in what he said.
I enjoy reading your conversation and wonder why this has to suddenly come to a halt. In fact humans have some differences and it is these differences that enable people to converse and in a world where people have no voice or difference passions will come to a blind alley.
Oh, I was hoping that you would participate. But you decided to do so…… when I left a floor.LOL! I should have done it earlier. I am very interested in a male perspective. I wouldn’t say that I disapprove Osho’s way of thinking. I have to admit that there is difference in our approach to relationships.
Second, my mind is preoccupied with fascinating staff relating to magic that has been used to control and manipulate societies. In fact, Giordano Bruno elaborated how love and sex could be used to manipulate and control masses. In other words, the idea about relationships and sex is not our own but it was implanted into our subconscious minds in a very clever way but without our consent. I don’t want to play that game but I want to find out how I can free my mind. I am wondering if people could free their minds and find out their truth about love and relationships, how it would impact humans and how relationship would look like. What would happen if a powerful tool of control like music and images that are loaded with sexual massages disappeared? :confused5:
blazeofglory
01-06-2012, 05:56 AM
Oh, I was hoping that you would participate. But you decided to do so…… when I left a floor.LOL! I should have done it earlier. I am very interested in a male perspective. I wouldn’t say that I disapprove Osho’s way of thinking. I have to admit that there is difference in our approach to relationships.
Second, my mind is preoccupied with fascinating staff relating to magic that has been used to control and manipulate societies. In fact, Giordano Bruno elaborated how love and sex could be used to manipulate and control masses. In other words, the idea about relationships and sex is not our own but it was implanted into our subconscious minds in a very clever way but without our consent. I don’t want to play that game but I want to find out how I can free my mind. I am wondering if people could free their minds and find out their truth about love and relationships, how it would impact humans and how relationship would look like. What would happen if a powerful tool of control like music and images that are loaded with sexual massages disappeared? :confused5:
Thank you so much to let my participation in the conversation. In fact I like your range of imagination and your search for something magical and to connect it to sex, love and the like. In fact I find in magic and of course in music human sentiments and passions manifest and I understand you can understand the subtlety of magic. It sounds really intriguing to understand the secret encrypted in music and few can fathom the depth and you seem to have gone a little further than the rest I have come across anyone on this forum and I really enjoy to converse with you on this subtlest issue with reference to art, music, religion and literature
Thank you so much to let my participation in the conversation. In fact I like your range of imagination and your search for something magical and to connect it to sex, love and the like. In fact I find in magic and of course in music human sentiments and passions manifest and I understand you can understand the subtlety of magic. It sounds really intriguing to understand the secret encrypted in music and few can fathom the depth and you seem to have gone a little further than the rest I have come across anyone on this forum and I really enjoy to converse with you on this subtlest issue with reference to art, music, religion and literature
I would be happy to talk about it. Indeed, it is a fascinating subject. I need to absorb what I have read and to read a few books. I have found quite fascinating how human minds work. I go back to the same books or art again and again and every time I see what I haven’t seen before. I have many questions and I don’t know if I will be able to find the answers but I need to trust my soul and its guidance. I can share something about my journey. A couple of years ago, my soul literally pushed me to look at art. I have always loved art but at that time it was more than that as it was almost like addiction. I couldn’t stop and I didn’t try to control it, knowing the power of images. From a perspective, I can say that my soul has prepared me to move to another level - to magic. It looked like that I had to experience it and to be stimulated by that experience with curiosity reaching sky to look for the deeper understanding. It is different knowledge and exciting one.
I am glad that this subject is of your interest. :smile5:
blazeofglory
01-07-2012, 02:05 AM
I would be happy to talk about it. Indeed, it is a fascinating subject. I need to absorb what I have read and to read a few books. I have found quite fascinating how human minds work. I go back to the same books or art again and again and every time I see what I haven’t seen before. I have many questions and I don’t know if I will be able to find the answers but I need to trust my soul and its guidance. I can share something about my journey. A couple of years ago, my soul literally pushed me to look at art. I have always loved art but at that time it was more than that as it was almost like addiction. I couldn’t stop and I didn’t try to control it, knowing the power of images. From a perspective, I can say that my soul has prepared me to move to another level - to magic. It looked like that I had to experience it and to be stimulated by that experience with curiosity reaching sky to look for the deeper understanding. It is different knowledge and exciting one.
I am glad that this subject is of your interest. :smile5:
Magic, mystery, music and mythology have always fascinated me and in fact I find so many of questions and curiosities answered through them and even in literature I am intrigued by magic realism, a blend of magic and realism something I find mirrored in some postmodern literature. I have not read anything of the Italian writer Bruno which you and osho have much discussed.I have indeed a great passion for painting too and up to a certain age I updated myself with the latest advancements in art and I have since then abandoned that zone now my heart is much in mythology, literature and philosophy and in fact I get lost in that domain and some of the truths we must know in life got unfolded to me through these disciplines.
Now through conversations with someone like you I will find great revelations in the realm of magic. At times I feel objective reality belittles our capacity for imagination and it stands as a wall between our imagination and the actualities we live in. We do not accustom ourselves to that mysterious domain, to that remotest human psyche and fancy. The fact you are passionate about magic is really fascinating me to talk more to you. Can you tell me a little about what inspired you to take an interest in magic a little bit background about your passions for literature and the like and it is up to you to PM or discuss here. Since it will be easier to discuss our domains of interests and passions more closely and profoundly if we know a little bit about ourselves. Anyway I really got a great fascination in your conversations with osho and was a silent but fervent participant or listener there
Darcy88
01-07-2012, 02:42 AM
Yes the few who succeed enjoy the relationships to the fullest extent. And what binds them together is understanding and this is not infatuation and it is a sense of togetherness. I have read a Greek legend in which there was a being that split up and got turned into two beings: male and female. They again wanted to regain their old unity since they have been by accident two beings. That is how sex has happened since they become intertwined and this sense of sex is the feeling of togetherness and today few want this kind of kinship. They have some urges, that rise up inside their bodies through some chemical reactions, sex hormones and once they satisfy themselves everything is over. But in real love they become one and intimately and integrally one and feel the eternal joy of sex and unity and this is what I felt in his novel. Now I am reading his other novel Sons and Lovers which I had read in my school days and now as a matured man I read it differently and I find a different meaning here, a different philosophy since in those days my impotency or immaturity barred me from comprehending this great literature
Wow. Well said Osho. Plato has Aristophanes cover that myth in his speech in the Symposium. The conversation going on in this thread is fascinating and enlightening. Lady Chatterly is one of my favourite books. I have not read it in years but you are making me want to pick it up again.
Magic, mystery, music and mythology have always fascinated me and in fact I find so many of questions and curiosities answered through them and even in literature I am intrigued by magic realism, a blend of magic and realism something I find mirrored in some postmodern literature. I have not read anything of the Italian writer Bruno which you and osho have much discussed.I have indeed a great passion for painting too and up to a certain age I updated myself with the latest advancements in art and I have since then abandoned that zone now my heart is much in mythology, literature and philosophy and in fact I get lost in that domain and some of the truths we must know in life got unfolded to me through these disciplines.
Now through conversations with someone like you I will find great revelations in the realm of magic. At times I feel objective reality belittles our capacity for imagination and it stands as a wall between our imagination and the actualities we live in. We do not accustom ourselves to that mysterious domain, to that remotest human psyche and fancy. The fact you are passionate about magic is really fascinating me to talk more to you. Can you tell me a little about what inspired you to take an interest in magic a little bit background about your passions for literature and the like and it is up to you to PM or discuss here. Since it will be easier to discuss our domains of interests and passions more closely and profoundly if we know a little bit about ourselves. Anyway I really got a great fascination in your conversations with osho and was a silent but fervent participant or listener there
I have to take a break from writing now. I have opened a Pandora Box with feelings and thoughts after reading G. Bruno and I need to absorb it. But before I take a break, I would like to share my thoughts.
I was thinking what Osho wrote as he said, ”I cannot have multiple relationships though I often have this desire even something for threesome”. I guess I can say that it has been a desire for a number of men as I have seen many artists who painted women in a harem. Of course, we will never know if it was the artist’s desire or if it was a desire of a sponsor with his desire to manipulate and create changes in psyche of people.
I was thinking about a tread on another forum called “Sex Communism” Well, it has started with sex communism and has ended up with nudity. :biggrinjester: Anyway, the tread was funny to read as most members who strongly opposed that idea articulated their thoughts with such a clarity and a great sense of humor. There were only 2 members who argued to dead of the tread for a sex communism. Both men and women didn’t wanted to have a relationships where the partner had multiple sexual relationships. To be honest, I was curious what men thought about it and they didn’t want it. Only one female member was open to that idea, and in fact, she had that kind of relationship where both she and her partner had multiple sexual partners. She said that she was happy and her partner was happy. Ironically, he left relationship and marred somebody else. If he really was happy….....he would stay. :lol: I guess it was a denial or rationalization on her part. So, it is possible to have a tiresome relationship? I don’t know any women who would want that but there are 7 billion of people and half of them are women. But perhaps it is possible if they don’t have any desire for deep intimacy but operate only on an instinctual level. The question we may ask: did women in harem were happy or manipulated into that kind of thinking. If they were poor…..it might have looked as a good idea. The best option of imprisonment. :reddevil:
I have to take a break from writing now. I have opened a Pandora Box with feelings and thoughts after reading G. Bruno and I need to absorb it. But before I take a break, I would like to share my thoughts.
I was thinking what Osho wrote as he said, ”I cannot have multiple relationships though I often have this desire even something for threesome”. I guess I can say that it has been a desire for a number of men as I have seen many artists who painted women in a harem. Of course, we will never know if it was the artist’s desire or if it was a desire of a sponsor with his desire to manipulate and create changes in psyche of people.
I was thinking about a tread on another forum called “Sex Communism” Well, it has started with sex communism and has ended up with nudity. :biggrinjester: Anyway, the tread was funny to read as most members who strongly opposed that idea articulated their thoughts with such a clarity and a great sense of humor. There were only 2 members who argued to dead of the tread for a sex communism. Both men and women didn’t wanted to have a relationships where the partner had multiple sexual relationships. To be honest, I was curious what men thought about it and they didn’t want it. Only one female member was open to that idea, and in fact, she had that kind of relationship where both she and her partner had multiple sexual partners. She said that she was happy and her partner was happy. Ironically, he left relationship and marred somebody else. If he really was happy….....he would stay. :lol: I guess it was a denial or rationalization on her part. So, it is possible to have a tiresome relationship? I don’t know any women who would want that but there are 7 billion of people and half of them are women. But perhaps it is possible if they don’t have any desire for deep intimacy but operate only on an instinctual level. The question we may ask: did women in harem were happy or manipulated into that kind of thinking. If they were poor…..it might have looked as a good idea. The best option of imprisonment. :reddevil:
Though I have no intention to poke around between your conversations with blaze I think it has some pertinence to recommend you to read THE KAMA SUTRA OF VATSYAYANA with regard to your quote of "harem". This is a magnum opus and you cannot come upon something like this in any western repertoire. So many your unanswered questions, relationships between man and woman, their sexual urges, their prejudices in this iconoclastic book and I think if you read this books detachedly you will not have any assumption about what I said and I will never be misquoted in this context
Wow. Well said Osho. Plato has Aristophanes cover that myth in his speech in the Symposium. The conversation going on in this thread is fascinating and enlightening. Lady Chatterly is one of my favourite books. I have not read it in years but you are making me want to pick it up again.
I am really elated to know that you understood the essence of my conversation with ftil
Though I have no intention to poke around between your conversations with blaze I think it has some pertinence to recommend you to read THE KAMA SUTRA OF VATSYAYANA with regard to your quote of "harem". This is a magnum opus and you cannot come upon something like this in any western repertoire. So many your unanswered questions, relationships between man and woman, their sexual urges, their prejudices in this iconoclastic book and I think if you read this books detachedly you will not have any assumption about what I said and I will never be misquoted in this context
I have read it years ago. A couple of years ago, I have seen your Osho talking about it. When you can look at him, you see a man void of any feelings with soulless eyes. Second, look at Kandariya Mahadev sculptures. Orgy and sex with animals. Perhaps, it is your way of having a relationship. :biggrinjester: I can tell that I have never met a woman who was promiscuous but who wouldn’t regret it later. I met those women in real life and women expressed the same regret on the sex communism tread.
Again, there are men who want and are capable of having deep intimate relationships and there are men who don’t. I met more than a few of them who don’t. They ignite interest and passion in women….for a very short time. :devil: But then the boredom sets in as they are boring without depth of the souls, lacking of insights and incapable of passionate discussions. From perspective, I can honestly say as many women said……..it was a waste of time.
BTW, you may read Kalachakra Tantra. A Shadow of Dalai Lama. If I didn’t read this book, I wouldn’t find Giordano Bruno. Everything is connected.
I have read it years ago. A couple of years ago, I have seen your Osho talking about it. When you can look at him, you see a man void of any feelings with soulless eyes. Second, look at Kandariya Mahadev sculptures. Orgy and sex with animals. Perhaps, it is your way of having a relationship. :biggrinjester: I can tell that I have never met a woman who was promiscuous but who wouldn’t regret it later. I met those women in real life and women expressed the same regret on the sex communism tread.
Again, there are men who want and are capable of having deep intimate relationships and there are men who don’t. I met more than a few of them who don’t. They ignite interest and passion in women….for a very short time. :devil: But then the boredom sets in as they are boring without depth of the souls, lacking of insights and incapable of passionate discussions. From perspective, I can honestly say as many women said……..it was a waste of time.
BTW, you may read Kalachakra Tantra. A Shadow of Dalai Lama. If I didn’t read this book, I wouldn’t find Giordano Bruno. Everything is connected.
It is really nice to hear that you have a read a wide range of books and your hunger for books is really startling. While I too read books voraciously but I cannot measure up to you and of course I will have lots of things to learn from you despite seeming differences between us. I know my posts have oftentimes have exasperated you since I writing daringly and unconcernedly, almost callously what the rest think. It is nice we come from different disciplines, and we have no fixation. I am personally straightforward and am unaware about the impact my post might made on you. All I want to do is unfurl what goes inside me rather than morphing ideas, masquerading one's feelings. I do not want a mask of civilization and yes I often change and those who feign changelessness and stability in their relationships with their best moods are fakes and I hate them. I want open confrontations and want to put all that go on the inside inside-out. I may anger people but the impact is always positive. I do not know how you mistook me and of course we are humans and are therefore capable of straying, but indeed I may return to my earlier stance, calm and composed. One of the books you have recommended me Kalachakra Tantra is really fascinating and though I have no access to them save Wikipedia I am trying to read a book on it. In fact humans have weaknesses and they cannot maintain their moods all the time and that will be reflective of their behaviors.
It is really nice to hear that you have a read a wide range of books and your hunger for books is really startling. While I too read books voraciously but I cannot measure up to you and of course I will have lots of things to learn from you despite seeming differences between us. I know my posts have oftentimes have exasperated you since I writing daringly and unconcernedly, almost callously what the rest think. It is nice we come from different disciplines, and we have no fixation. I am personally straightforward and am unaware about the impact my post might made on you. All I want to do is unfurl what goes inside me rather than morphing ideas, masquerading one's feelings. I do not want a mask of civilization and yes I often change and those who feign changelessness and stability in their relationships with their best moods are fakes and I hate them. I want open confrontations and want to put all that go on the inside inside-out. I may anger people but the impact is always positive. I do not know how you mistook me and of course we are humans and are therefore capable of straying, but indeed I may return to my earlier stance, calm and composed. One of the books you have recommended me Kalachakra Tantra is really fascinating and though I have no access to them save Wikipedia I am trying to read a book on it. In fact humans have weaknesses and they cannot maintain their moods all the time and that will be reflective of their behaviors.
Osho, you have misunderstood me. When I thanked for our conversation, I was clear that we have reached a point where we had too many differences regarding relationships that there was no point to continue. We talked about relationships, and passions, and sex and I become disinterested when it has become a repetition. Second, as you said that you would want to have multiple sexual partners, I have realized that our discussion was not about relationships but about sexual encounters. You may find on a forum female members who would enjoy being entertained by the idea of having multiple sexual partners.
I am not interested in that kind of discussion. First, I don’t know any woman who would want that. I know a number of women who had that kind of partners and they left them. :p I don’t say that there are not women who would welcome being with a partner who has multiple sexual partners. I don’t know them and I wouldn’t be interested to get to know them. It is not that I judge both men and women for having different preferences. It is not my business and we have a choice with whom we interact. We want to be around like minded people as the energy is high in that kind of interactions. It is as simple as that.
Finally, if you think that women welcome having a partner who has several sexual partners, don’t you think that you waste your time on the forum. Your life should be very busy to accommodate them.
And if you impregnated a few of them……you really wouldn’t have time to waste. :lol:
I hope that I expressed myself clearly and that you would respect that.
Osho, you have misunderstood me. When I thanked for our conversation, I was clear that we have reached a point where we had too many differences regarding relationships that there was no point to continue. We talked about relationships, and passions, and sex and I become disinterested when it has become a repetition. Second, as you said that you would want to have multiple sexual partners, I have realized that our discussion was not about relationships but about sexual encounters. You may find on a forum female members who would enjoy being entertained by the idea of having multiple sexual partners.
I am not interested in that kind of discussion. First, I don’t know any woman who would want that. I know a number of women who had that kind of partners and they left them. :p I don’t say that there are not women who would welcome being with a partner who has multiple sexual partners. I don’t know them and I wouldn’t be interested to get to know them. It is not that I judge both men and women for having different preferences. It is not my business and we have a choice with whom we interact. We want to be around like minded people as the energy is high in that kind of interactions. It is as simple as that.
Finally, if you think that women welcome having a partner who has several sexual partners, don’t you think that you waste your time on the forum. Your life should be very busy to accommodate them.
And if you impregnated a few of them……you really wouldn’t have time to waste. :lol:
I hope that I expressed myself clearly and that you would respect that.
You always startle me with your quirks and you did not limit the discussion to something we do for the sake of conversation. I never said I am having or will have multiple sex or personal relationships and I have never had and will not have. This is impudence and narrow-mindedness and it speaks up the world you came from and it is not your fault to judge me or somebody like by the open discussion or some themes people catch on.
We were drifting with the topic Lady Chatterley's Lovers and this book is full of such themes and I have gone thematically and w have been little bit open and we had no motive to encumber each other. There was a natural flow in our conversation and it was on an impersonal level and suddenly your rootedness came in, and what you might have learned or some of the sweeter or bitter experiences you might have gone with man / men popped up there. In fact our cultural blockades demean us and that will drown any relationships. I never meant to treat you along the lines you have thought though at times we talked passionately. Art and personality are two different domains. My discussion was bounded by art and you suddenly linked it to life and despoiled the flow and tired to smash up my literary personality. You have to act civilly and this kind of attitude will single out you friends. I am your friend here, one of the literary team and do not hodgepodge open discussion with the personality issue and check here on some other threads there is a free flow of communication that goes unabatedly and objectively.
Osho wrote:
There was a natural flow in our conversation and it was on an impersonal level and suddenly your rootedness came in, and what you might have learned or some of the sweeter or bitter experiences you might have gone with man / men popped up there.
Hehehe….I lost my interest ….it was not sudden as you look how many posts I wrote.
Bitter experience with men…….I don’t even remember their names…...so how can I be bitter???? :lol:
You have to act civilly and this kind of attitude will single out you friends.
Hm…...I think that we have a different understanding what boundary means. I was honest with you when I thanked your for a conversation. I wrote that I my mind was focused on more interesting things than talking about sex. People don’t talk about it…..but enjoying experiencing it. I spent enough time to talk about it so that don’t blame me but find others to continue a free flow of communication.
.. if you think that women welcome having a partner who has several sexual partners, don’t you think that you waste your time on the forum. Your life should be very busy to accommodate them.
And if you impregnated a few of them……you really wouldn’t have time to waste. :lol:
I hope that I expressed myself clearly and that you would respect that.
Think how lowly you have vilified me and is not this reflective of the world or culture you were born and grown up and the environment that programmed you?
Think how lowly you have vilified me and is not this reflective of the world or culture you were born and grown up and the environment that programmed you?
LOL! I can tell you that your responses are a perfect example why many friendships not mentioning relationships fall apart. Maturity requires that we respect when others say no. We don’t push or manipulate to get what we want. :reddevil:
And if you impregnated a few of them……you really wouldn’t have time to waste. :lol:
.
Madam, your decency is born of something preposterous and you claim your self mature, maybe in age but not in thought and your bringing up and your experiences with males could be cold and that is why I always feel you fail to make relationships with humans. I see you always in a temper and talk obnoxiously, the way you use repellent words as quoted above speak up amply up the very mood you are in. Or else you would never have spewed out such words. In fact not only you your culture and your background could account for what comes from you.
Madam, your decency is born of something preposterous and you claim your self mature, maybe in age but not in thought and your bringing up and your experiences with males could be cold and that is why I always feel you fail to make relationships with humans. I see you always in a temper and talk obnoxiously, the way you use repellent words as quoted above speak up amply up the very mood you are in. Or else you would never have spewed out such words. In fact not only you your culture and your background could account for what comes from you.
LOL! It is getting more interesting. You are switching to another manipulative behavior- attack. And the only reason you are doing it is the fact that I lost my interest to continue discussion with you. When you mature, you will learn that not everybody likes us and accepts us. People have a free choice with whom they interact and associate. Please don’t forget that like attracts alike. I don’t have anything in common with you and I honestly said that.
I see you in a temper…..LOL! Well, I must agree that I have zero tolerance for manipulative behaviors and I call it out loud. I appreciate respect. It wouldn’t be any problem, if you respected my needs to end our conversation. There are so many people on the forum who may be willing to continue. It is as simple as that.
Why I always feel you fail to make relationships with humans……….You mean that I fail making friendships with you. You are absolutely right …... I was polite and honest when thanked you for our conversation. Rather than wasting your time and mine, why don’t you look for like minded people to talk to.
Enjoy the Litnet.
And if you impregnated a few of them……you really wouldn’t have time to waste. :lol:
.
I do not want any further trashy arguments and I simply want you to illuminate the one I have quoted. If you are a dignified lady let me know what you meant by the above quote. I have quoted it several times and you always take an excuse to skip / cover up this point.
I do not want any further trashy arguments and I simply want you to illuminate the one I have quoted. If you are a dignified lady let me know what you meant by the above quote. I have quoted it several times and you always take an excuse to skip / cover up this point.
It was no I who moved to trashy arguments. I politely thanked you for our conversation. That all.
You should have know that when you have sex with women…they may get pregnant. And if you like to have multiple sexual relationships…you may impregnate a few of them. Then you would be busy with no time to waste and no time for a forum. I didn’t expect that it was so difficult to figure it out. :lol:
I hope that we may end our conversation for good. :beatdeadhorse5:
It was no I who moved to trashy arguments. I politely thanked you for our conversation. That all.
You should have know that when you have sex with women…they may get pregnant. And if you like to have multiple sexual relationships…you may impregnate a few of them. Then you would be busy with no time to waste and no time for a forum. I didn’t expect that it was so difficult to figure it out. :lol:
I hope that we may end our conversation for good. :beatdeadhorse5:
Have you undergone that experience and got impregnated in the course? I have never proposed you and it was just with regard to the novel and you responded to my first post and carried it to the further extent and there was an objective discussion and I never wanted to have a relationship with anyone or with yourself and you assumed the incredible, the ridiculous and frustrated yourself and accused me. You are a great manipulator and you always had that kind of conversation.
Have you undergone that experience and got impregnated in the course? I have never proposed you and it was just with regard to the novel and you responded to my first post and carried it to the further extent and there was an objective discussion and I never wanted to have a relationship with anyone or with yourself and you assumed the incredible, the ridiculous and frustrated yourself and accused me. You are a great manipulator and you always had that kind of conversation.
From your post…short memory, eh?
I am a social being and I cannot get out of its boundary and I have to comply with the standards and norms set for me and I cannot have multiple relationships though I often have this desire even something for threesome
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65846&page=6 post 81.
Enjoy Litnet. :devil:
Find people who will enjoy talking to you. I don’t have time for it. :ciappa:
From your post…short memory, eh?
Enjoy Litnet. :devil:
Find people who will enjoy talking to you. I don’t have time for it. :ciappa:
Your extract will lose steam if you only honestly quote the argument in the entire context Your ideas have run short of steam since the topic under the discussion was Lady Chatterley's Lover and you know he was a much debated and banned writer in the UK. Like Nabokov, he too wrote or unearthed some deep seated human instincts which remain layered on the psyche and there are several layers of it, you know and some get expressed it artistically through magic, art and the like.D.H. Lawrence posthumously got great applauses as a novelist and some great novelist like E.M. Forster considered him the greatest novelist and F.R. Leavis gave applauded his works very highly.
Everyone has layers of consciousness, and when we talk something we rationalize our impulses and censor or sift them prior to speaking up. The writer has throughout his novels tried to uncouthly express what pops up in human minds. We often try to masquerade our real natures wearing sainthoods covering the "beast" within us. We often stray in dreams and have even sexual relationships with someone out of our matrimonial relationships and if we deny it we do it out of conceit only.
Now you can, if you have studied modern psychology you will understand the sum and substance of what I argued.
Do not try to connect this to my personality. The writer is not what he writes about. He can imagine things and that remains bound to his creative / imaginative faculties
Privy Counsel
03-13-2012, 07:55 AM
A new twist on the classic story:
http://theprivycounsel.blogspot.com/2012/01/lady-chatterleys-lover-draining-romance.html
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.