Notes from Underground - self analysis leading to disillusionment and inaction?

[Heloise Wild]

Dostoyevsky's book is offers a pessimistic view, particularly when it comes to inaction as caused by hightened consciousness and what appears to be excessive knowledge of oneself. Also, it is troubling that the hero realizes all of his shortcomings, and yet is unable to stop himself from self-destructive behaviour and the pursuit of stubborness for its own sake. (It is quite difficult to explain, but those who have read the book will know what I am talking about.) The question is: is there any hope for "the mouse"? Is there any way for him to exit the underground, and if yes, what is it?
I feel that the excess of psychoanalysis is harming me as well. How is it possible to believe in something good and holy and create instead of destroying when you are acutely aware of the base, utilitarian motives in your subconscious, and of your animal, fallible nature? How is it possible to maintain your "integrity" when everything you encounter tells you that there is no undelying meaning in life, no purpose, and no certainty?

[ftil]

Dostoyevsky's book is offers a pessimistic view, particularly when it comes to inaction as caused by hightened consciousness and what appears to be excessive knowledge of oneself. Also, it is troubling that the hero realizes all of his shortcomings, and yet is unable to stop himself from self-destructive behaviour and the pursuit of stubborness for its own sake. (It is quite difficult to explain, but those who have read the book will know what I am talking about.) The question is: is there any hope for "the mouse"? Is there any way for him to exit the underground, and if yes, what is it?
I feel that the excess of psychoanalysis is harming me as well. How is it possible to believe in something good and holy and create instead of destroying when you are acutely aware of the base, utilitarian motives in your subconscious, and of your animal, fallible nature? How is it possible to maintain your "integrity" when everything you encounter tells you that there is no undelying meaning in life, no purpose, and no certainty?

You have raised quite important questions. The issue is how you understand integrity. I wouldn’t say that integrity is associated with certainty. I view integrity as acting in accordance with inner values. Honesty is of the highest importance and an integral aspect of having integrity. That is being honest with oneself and others.

It is a challenge to recognize a false teaching of who we are and how our psyche works. I agree that extensive psychoanalysis may do more harm than good. However, how can we get to know who we really are if we don’t take time to learn about our feelings as well as to learn about unconscious beliefs, particularly, core beliefs that were imposed upon us by family or culture.

[cafolini]

Dostoyevsky's book is offers a pessimistic view, particularly when it comes to inaction as caused by hightened consciousness and what appears to be excessive knowledge of oneself. Also, it is troubling that the hero realizes all of his shortcomings, and yet is unable to stop himself from self-destructive behaviour and the pursuit of stubborness for its own sake. (It is quite difficult to explain, but those who have read the book will know what I am talking about.) The question is: is there any hope for "the mouse"? Is there any way for him to exit the underground, and if yes, what is it?
I feel that the excess of psychoanalysis is harming me as well. How is it possible to believe in something good and holy and create instead of destroying when you are acutely aware of the base, utilitarian motives in your subconscious, and of your animal, fallible nature? How is it possible to maintain your "integrity" when everything you encounter tells you that there is no undelying meaning in life, no purpose, and no certainty?

I think you view it as a proposition on how to live. Dostoievski is merely descriptive of the realities of the man in the underground and he's asserting his life as it goes.
I don't think psychoanalisis is his purpose at all.

[KCurtis]

Dostoyevsky's book is offers a pessimistic view, particularly when it comes to inaction as caused by hightened consciousness and what appears to be excessive knowledge of oneself. Also, it is troubling that the hero realizes all of his shortcomings, and yet is unable to stop himself from self-destructive behaviour and the pursuit of stubborness for its own sake. (It is quite difficult to explain, but those who have read the book will know what I am talking about.) The question is: is there any hope for "the mouse"? Is there any way for him to exit the underground, and if yes, what is it?

The underground man was really sick, that is why he had so much trouble. This story saddened me. Remember at the end, after the woman left his room, and he was awful to her, he ran after her but it was too late. He was at last remorseful, and that is where the story ends.
Dostoyevsky spent a lot of time visiting patients at the psychiatric hospital adjacent to where he lived, and was very sensitive to their plights. I think that he had a great insight into troubled minds. He also had a really hard life. I would have liked to have met him.

[Theunderground]

Most people in life wont even try a quarter as hards as dostoevsky/the underground man to pyschoanalyse themselves. Its possible he did this because he was not satisfied with his life or that he was just over-intellectual. (as most reformers/pioneeers are.) but the truley great man will overcome the psychoanalysis of words and become a man of action and poetry. I know several people who are in similar plights to the underground man,and are just too weak to break free.

[KCurtis]

Most people in life wont even try a quarter as hards as dostoevsky/the underground man to pyschoanalyse themselves. Its possible he did this because he was not satisfied with his life or that he was just over-intellectual. (as most reformers/pioneeers are.) but the truley great man will overcome the psychoanalysis of words and become a man of action and poetry. I know several people who are in similar plights to the underground man,and are just too weak to break free.
I think the Underground man was in fact inflicted with a serious mental illness-weakness has nothing to do with having a psychotic illness. I am thinking the underground man suffered from a severe paranoia type illness- but he did try to break free at the end, if that is what you mean.

[Heloise Wild]

I view integrity as acting in accordance with inner values. Honesty is of the highest importance and an integral aspect of having integrity.

Thank you for responding. I am interested, though, where do these inner values (such as honestry) come from? What are they based on, in the absence of certainty and absolute law?
For me, it was truly devastating when my Catholic value system broke up, and broke up completely, in a matter of months. I was quite young - 14 years old - and I remember my panic: "They are trying to kill my heart!" "They," of course, were the kids who were bullying me, but I guess my own (untimely) maturation was just as responsible. When my mother called a psycholagist on my request, he said that there was nothing wrong with my mind, and a lot wrong with my bookcase. = ) But whatever it is, my values never returned... I tried to create them artificially - out of my incurable desire for "the beautiful and the lofty," you could say, and an inner need for religion. But I failed. And I wonder what would you do in my place...

As for the metal illness - yes, maybe he is crazy. Maybe I am crazy. But how do you define who is crazy and who is normal? Against what standards? I don't think there are a lot of definitions which are less vague!

[KCurtis]

As for the metal illness - yes, maybe he is crazy. Maybe I am crazy. But how do you define who is crazy and who is normal? Against what standards? I don't think there are a lot of definitions which are less vague!

I don't really want to go into mental illness too much, my son suffers severely. It is defined by soundness of mind. Hallucinations and delusions, extreme paranoia that makes it very difficult or near impossible to function and hold a job.

[Darcy88]

Such a masterful piece of literature, not merely in its psychological and philosophical depth, but also as a work of art. Its dramatic and its intense, incredibly dramatic, incredibly intense. That last scene with the girl in his room.... wow! Dostoevsky goes all out and the result is stunning. And he paints so perfect a picture of a neurotic individual I suspect he must have been a little neurotic himself.

[ftil]

Thank you for responding. I am interested, though, where do these inner values (such as honestry) come from? What are they based on, in the absence of certainty and absolute law?
For me, it was truly devastating when my Catholic value system broke up, and broke up completely, in a matter of months. I was quite young - 14 years old - and I remember my panic: "They are trying to kill my heart!" "They," of course, were the kids who were bullying me, but I guess my own (untimely) maturation was just as responsible. When my mother called a psycholagist on my request, he said that there was nothing wrong with my mind, and a lot wrong with my bookcase. = ) But whatever it is, my values never returned... I tried to create them artificially - out of my incurable desire for "the beautiful and the lofty," you could say, and an inner need for religion. But I failed. And I wonder what would you do in my place...

As for the metal illness - yes, maybe he is crazy. Maybe I am crazy. But how do you define who is crazy and who is normal? Against what standards? I don't think there are a lot of definitions which are less vague!

It is a good question from where our inner values come from. Family plays an important role in transmitting values as well as religion teaches us about values. We can’t underestimate the impact of culture upon us, particularly, media that shape our view of reality. We are bombarded with messages that may be contradictory. Honesty is a good example as we may receive quite opposite messages. However, there are values that are universal such as truth, dignity, freedom, love, or beauty. We can’t have integrity if we are not honest with ourselves and others. I think that it is not a matter of asking about certainty or absolute law. It is connected with our inner core of who we are and how we feel about it. In other words, we know when we are not honest with others or ourselves. Sometimes, we try to justify our dishonesty saying that we didn’t want to hurt others. But when we carefully examine our feelings and thoughts, we always find very different reasons and feelings we didn’t want to face. Therefore, self examination is very important if we want to know how we are. Sadly, many people don’t know how to do it and family, church, or culture doesn’t teach it either.

Regarding your experience with Catholic religion, I may share my own experience. I grew up in catholic family. When I was sixteen, I openly questioned catholic teachings. It is our personal growth that encourages us to seek the truth. I was seeking spirituality in Eastern teachings to realize that it was not my cup of coffee. In fact, I have seen my people quite fragmented by practicing Buddhism or Hindu religion. So, it helped me to completely let go of Eastern religion. As people mature, they look for spirituality. But we only know if it is a right path when we feel it in our bodies that is when we feel fully alive, energized, and peaceful. We feel that way when we act with integrity and dignity too.


As for the metal illness - yes, maybe he is crazy. Maybe I am crazy. But how do you define who is crazy and who is normal? Against what standards? I don't think there are a lot of definitions which are less vague!

Absolutely. Who says that somebody is normal or not. DSM IV? Good that you question that.

[Buh4Bee]

Great thread! I have been struggling to pick my next book as all my usual recommending resources are tapped out! Anyway, I'm going to give this book a go, if not next over Xmas break.

[Heloise Wild]

I don't really want to go into mental illness too much, my son suffers severely. It is defined by soundness of mind. Hallucinations and delusions, extreme paranoia that makes it very difficult or near impossible to function and hold a job.

I didn't want to offend you. I am sorry about your son... What I meant was, sometimes it is very hard to tell. I have regular panic attacks that for some reason cause my sugar to jump up, and I have been on antidepressants for a year. It doesn't necessarily mean that I am mentally sick, though: it's just the stress in my life that is beginning to show. And most people have such mild problems at one point, what with the modern pace of life. In short, I think the underground man's paranoia is an effect, not a cause...

[Theunderground]

Im not an expert on 'real' mental illnesses but i suspect that a huge majority of cases like depression,psychosis,paranoia are either the person adjusting to difficult circumstances or short term imbalances in the body.(i have worked in secure hospitals with patients sectioned for six months due to these conditions.) I think everyone has certain behaviours that might be considered 'abnormal' by others. Mental illness to some extent is a subjective term. I think people may 'recover' if given the apropriate care etc.
As for values,as a rejector of islam and its values i found that my own deepest values were 'innate',you dont need to find a 'reason' for these values any more than you need a 'reason' to start eating food.The moment i gave up theism,science or any 'ism' and just lived life according to my deepest feelings i felt fine,alive,happy,strong and optimistic,most of all i felt active.You dont need any religion,medication or 'ism' to feel love,and i feel mans deepest need is to be loved or love.

[ftil]

Im not an expert on 'real' mental illnesses but i suspect that a huge majority of cases like depression,psychosis,paranoia are either the person adjusting to difficult circumstances or short term imbalances in the body.(i have worked in secure hospitals with patients sectioned for six months due to these conditions.) I think everyone has certain behaviours that might be considered 'abnormal' by others. Mental illness to some extent is a subjective term. I think people may 'recover' if given the apropriate care etc.
As for values,as a rejector of islam and its values i found that my own deepest values were 'innate',you dont need to find a 'reason' for these values any more than you need a 'reason' to start eating food.The moment i gave up theism,science or any 'ism' and just lived life according to my deepest feelings i felt fine,alive,happy,strong and optimistic,most of all i felt active.You dont need any religion,medication or 'ism' to feel love,and i feel mans deepest need is to be loved or love.


Hm…..I think that it is more than having adjusting problems or imbalances in the body. Yes, any transition or change may aggravate existing problems but there are deeper problems. It is not very helpful for those we suffer. Some people may recover, other don’t. I would be very far from simplifying it.

I agree that religion may not be the answer for some people. Others may find a comfort in it. Everybody is unique and what work for you may not work for others. But I agree that any fundamentalist approach is not healthy. People don’t need to be Muslim or Christian to be called fundamentalist. I have see people who practiced Eastern religion or its New Age version and were fundamentalists.

[KCurtis]

I didn't want to offend you. I am sorry about your son... What I meant was, sometimes it is very hard to tell. I have regular panic attacks that for some reason cause my sugar to jump up, and I have been on antidepressants for a year. It doesn't necessarily mean that I am mentally sick, though: it's just the stress in my life that is beginning to show. And most people have such mild problems at one point, what with the modern pace of life. In short, I think the underground man's paranoia is an effect, not a cause...
You did not offend me at all. I think the underground man's paranoia was both actually.

[Heloise Wild]

As for values,as a rejector of islam and its values i found that my own deepest values were 'innate',you dont need to find a 'reason' for these values any more than you need a 'reason' to start eating food.
Yes, I think that this is true for most people - people who are not "abnormal," i.e., were born the way evolution intended them to be. For example, I am against murder, because I regard life, any life, as beautiful and the destruction of it saddens me. However, I am very much aware that this is nothing but a subjective perception. It doesn't make me a "good" person. And it has no moral judgement in it: for me, the two statements - "I hate cabbage" and "I hate murder" - belong to the same category, that of taste. I was just lucky enough not to be born a psycho...
This realization is what scares me.

[KCurtis]

Hm…..I think that it is more than having adjusting problems or imbalances in the body. Yes, any transition or change may aggravate existing problems but there are deeper problems. It is not very helpful for those we suffer. Some people may recover, other don’t. I would be very far from simplifying it.


Thankyou for your understanding, you are right, it cannot be simplified. I have firsthand experience with severe mental illness, and I wish everyone could recover, the fact is many cannot. As a parent of a son afflicted, that would be my greatest wish. However, my son has a medical condition that cannot be cured, and is difficult to treat. This is the last statement I will make on this issue.

[Theunderground]

I dont think its quite a simple as 'i hate cabbage,i hate murder'! and i dont think we are born with unchangeable values,we have to work to uphold those values,its not really a question of being 'born a psycho',i think its the propensity to be a psycho plus the will of the human. we cant take away human free-will and responsibility,though would wish to do so. I dont find it all frightening that i have to fight to uphold MY values or get rid of certain propensities i may have which i wish to eliminate or at least render null.
On the other issue,of course i myself was simplfying a tad,there may be certain illnesses' which are physical and which resist a 'complete physical recovery'.