Pepper Spray

[cafolini]

I agree with part of what you're saying, but they would also drill off the coasts of California and Florida, dragging property values down and wrecking the environment. They have already made numerous attempts to do so. So far they have been denied, by the government.

Well, yes. But it is the main part.

[Darcy88]

"Libertarians are among the most vocal critics of the military-industrial complex."

Then why do you wish to further empower said complex? If that's a distortion of your view then please correct me.

[Ragnar Freund]

No. I know we pay taxes for road maintenance. I've driven the toll roads in Florida, though. It's a situation that cripples the unemployed and keeps them from going out and actively seeking employment. The buses don't travel the toll roads. Private ownership means eventually large amounts of people won't be allowed to travel due to lack of income. Paying $2-$10 per trip out of the house sucks pretty hard. Gas prices are ridiculous. Is there much freedom in paying to leave your home? Will we have to pay to use private sidewalks?

Are you interested in doing away with public transportation too? Just curious. Taxis and shuttles cost a fortune if used regularly. I get that we pay taxes. You don't seem to get how much more we would have to pay without a structured government.

stlukeguild:

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that some people do indeed believe in free education/transportation/healthcare/etc.



You don't seem to get how much more we would have to pay without a structured government.

So structured government saves money?! You mean, of course, that it saves you money. Someone else must pay for your public transportation, otherwise money would come out of nothing. You find no problem with referring to yourself as society at large. Someone out there is paying taxes but not using public transportation. This person is your victim.That doesn't bother you?


"Libertarians are among the most vocal critics of the military-industrial complex."

Then why do you wish to further empower said complex? If that's a distortion of your view then please correct me.

A vile distortion, indeed. I wish to do away with the state. How can there be a military-industrial complex when there's no state? Whom would corporations bribe? I wish to kill the "military" part of "military-industrial", and you accuse me of trying to empower it? that's rich!

[Darcy88]

A vile distortion, indeed. I wish to do away with the state. How can there be a military-industrial complex when there's no state? Whom would corporations bribe? I wish to kill the "military" part of "military-industrial", and you accuse me of trying to empower it? that's rich!

So you're saying that if you do away with the state you thereby do away with the military? Without a state to enforce rules the military-industrial complex would run amok. Unless you envision a world-wide libertarian revolution where all pledge to never again wage war, the military will still have to exist. I just don't see that happening.

The only way total corporate rule could be prevented in your envisioned scenerio would be if the majority of people got together and organized themselves. There would be a structure to this organization. In other words, there would be a government.

[Varenne Rodin]

stlukeguild:

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that some people do indeed believe in free education/transportation/healthcare/etc.



So structured government saves money?! You mean, of course, that it saves you money. Someone else must pay for your public transportation, otherwise money would come out of nothing. You find no problem with referring to yourself as society at large. Someone out there is paying taxes but not using public transportation. This person is your victim.That doesn't bother you?

You have me wrong, Ragnar. I'm in the wealthy bracket and I don't think any services are free. I think I have excess. I think that excess can help people who need help. People who I would like to see happy if I happen to interact with them in this life. I'm not victimizing anyone. I manage my money better than people who either weren't born wealthy or don't have the financial skills needed to get ahead. I don't think human beings should live miserable lives simply because they didn't beat me at the money game.

[Vonny]

Hitler's rise to power and his war machine was fueled by major German (and non-German) corporations.

IBM sold Hitler the computers to keep track of concentration camp victims, and IBM made a killing. Those were some of the first computers that used punch cards.

Our government is corporate owned. The media is what has facillitated this. Propaganda/advertising is their weapon. It is more effective than using a militia and martial law, because people's brains immediately recognize that as threatening. Through brainwashing, they get us to be complacent and keep their people in office. And they keep us entertained us so we won't go against them.

The only power we have is through government, but people won't take control of it because they are too busy swilling soda.

The only way we can do anything to a corporation is if we used government to dismantle their charters. Otherwise they are rogue entities, and have moved beyond our national borders.

The reason the Middle East had to be conquered militarily is because their religion makes it impossible for us to change their values and accept us commercially as Iceland has done.

Corporations love government because government channels tax money to them. When services are privatized for example - government funds a business to help the mentally ill and all the business is thinking of is profit - they do the very least they can to get by in the short term, and the true health and well-being of the mentally ill is not their concern.

[cafolini]

You have me wrong, Ragnar. I'm in the wealthy bracket and I don't think any services are free. I think I have excess. I think that excess can help people who need help. People who I would like to see happy if I happen to interact with them in this life. I'm not victimizing anyone. I manage my money better than people who either weren't born wealthy or don't have the financial skills needed to get ahead. I don't think human beings should live miserable lives simply because they didn't beat me at the money game.

But Varenne, first priority to look upon is that redistribution of wealth is the make of any government whatsoever. It is done even in dictatorships. There is no solution to that. So it is either done well and more progressively or government fails. If government fails, the takeover is military, not corporate.

I agree with Darcy about libertarians. I think they are extremely naive.

[Vonny]

But Varenne, first priority to look upon is that redistribution of wealth is the make of any government whatsoever. It is done even in dictatorships. There is no solution to that. So it is either done well and more progressively or government fails. If government fails, the takeover is military, not corporate.

The military is corporate.

The media is corporate. They got us to sit back and go for the invasion of Iraq, and oooh and aww at what they called "Shock and Awe", as though the bombing of that country was a video game.

[Emil Miller]

The military is corporate.

The media is corporate. They got us to sit back and go for the invasion of Iraq, and oooh and aww at what they called "Shock and Awe", as though the bombing of that country was a video game.

So, given the WMDs were the excuse, what was the real reason for the invasion of Iraq?