Does the idea of Free Will appeal to you??

[mazHur]

Does your Free Will control your mind?? Does it help you choose good from evil?? How and where Free Will comes from?? How much one should exercise his/her Free Will?? Is our Free Will subordinate to the Will of the Supreme Being? Does Free Will have any scientific basis?? Is Free Will yet another name for emotions??? These and many questions about Free Will still remain unanswered. There is some good discussion about Free Will in the following article at

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/13/the_controversial_science_of_free_will/?source=newsletter

Let's see what do you have in mind about Free Will. Plz feel free to speak out your heart but gently....:)





http://www.salon.com/2011/11/13/the_controversial_science_of_free_will/?source=newsletter

[cafolini]

It depends on what you mean by free will. There occurs no absolute one. You can choose among the given choices, which might or might not be what you want, but they are there in any sociological setup. Other than those choices you have no free will. But to make those choices you also have to be informed as to what's available.

[Theunderground]

Man is absolutely free to do what he 'wants'. But how much suffering are you prepeared to go through for what you want? Or are you brave enough to follow your own desires without recourse to the 'opinions' of others? Man is as free as he wants to be.

[mazHur]

Man is absolutely free to do what he 'wants'. But how much suffering are you prepeared to go through for what you want? Or are you brave enough to follow your own desires without recourse to the 'opinions' of others? Man is as free as he wants to be.

No, a soldier can't do whatever he wants, an employee cannot do whatever he wants; a student can't do whatever he wants, etc etc. The will of all these is subordinate to the will of someone, something else. Man is free yet in chains,goes the saying. These chains are of several kinds, terrestrial, heavenly, socio-economic, political, legal, institutional, etc etc. there is no way to escape them unless one wants to go astray!

[cafolini]

Man is absolutely free to do what he 'wants'. But how much suffering are you prepeared to go through for what you want? Or are you brave enough to follow your own desires without recourse to the 'opinions' of others? Man is as free as he wants to be.

Even in jail? Under the most pauperous conditions? I agree. He can be as delirious as he wants to be, but only in being, which doesn't occur other than in the imagination. In three-dimensions he has no free will.

[cafolini]

Is a man free to be born?

[mazHur]

Is a man free to be born?

Let it go as long as it will
for we neither entered this world
nor can leave it
under our wish!!

[cafolini]

Can a man commit suicide? Perhaps that's the only absolute act of free will. But don't take me seriously and do it to prove you have free will.
And please, please, please, do not have a temper tantrum because you have to admit that I was at least involved. No absolute free will.:wave:

[mazHur]

Can a man commit suicide? Perhaps that's the only absolute act of free will. But don't take me seriously and do it to prove you have free will.
And please, please, please, do not have a temper tantrum because you have to admit that I was at least involved. No absolute free will.:wave:

Thoughts that provoked you to think about suicide evidence that you have a 'forced free will''. Now don't ask me what's 'forced free will'', just check out your circumstances which made you think so, okay?:wave:

[cafolini]

Thoughts that provoked you to think about suicide evidence that you have a 'forced free will''. Now don't ask me what's 'forced free will'', just check out your circumstances which made you think so, okay?:wave:

Anything is circumstantial, whatever it is. That's precisely why there is no abolute free will except in the act of ending all the circumstances. You are the one who has a forced free will that doesn't occur but in your imagination.

[mazHur]

Anything is circumstantial, whatever it is. That's precisely why there is no abolute free will except in the act of ending all the circumstances. You are the one who has a forced free will that doesn't occur but in your imagination.

haha!! Something seems to have shaken down your 'free will''??
I don't think any one has a free will..no. We all are bound together with something that controls our 'will'. As I said earlier it could be anything, from terrestrial contingencies to heavenly shadows!! I doubt if you have the 'free will' to commit suicide (please don't do it-I am just trying to explain:) that takes courage less person=suicide;)


Anything is circumstantial, whatever it is. That's precisely why there is no abolute free will except in the act of ending all the circumstances. You are the one who has a forced free will that doesn't occur but in your imagination.

haha!! Something seems to have shaken down your 'free will''??
I don't think any one has a free will..no. We all are bound together with something that controls our 'will'. As I said earlier it could be anything, from terrestrial contingencies to heavenly shadows!! I doubt if you have the 'free will' to commit suicide (please don't do it-I am just trying to explain:) that takes cowardice less person=suicide;)

[cafolini]

Ha! I thought I was talking to Theunderground.

[Arrowni]

Freewill sounds like a poor concept but a nice feeling.

[cafolini]

Freewill sounds like a poor concept but a nice feeling.

Yep. Imagine the good feeling.

[Theunderground]

Correction,wimps claim they have no free-will. But are you free to claim otherwise?

[cafolini]

Correction,wimps claim they have no free-will. But are you free to claim otherwise?

Wimps don't count where the action is.

[BlackCat]

I do think a soldier or an employee and especially a student can do whatever he/she wants, but since everything comes with a consequence, he/she must also accept it at the end. Free will does not guarantee a jail free card

[mazHur]

I do think a soldier or an employee and especially a student can do whatever he/she wants, but since everything comes with a consequence, he/she must also accept it at the end. Free will does not guarantee a jail free card

Free will only tells you to choose good from bad. If someone misuses free will and sits on the highway he could become yet another star in the sky!

[Jack of Hearts]

It's just not that easy, unless you're Nietzchean about it.

One thing that makes it difficult is that science and psychology and sociology seem to support a form of at least 'soft' determinism. There's a lot of things to say 'no' to if you want to claim you're absolutely free.

On a personal note, this reader sees 'free will' as strictly an academic inquiry best left in the study, as Hume put it.





J

[Darcy88]

It's just not that easy, unless you're Nietzchean about it.

One thing that makes it difficult is that science and psychology and sociology seem to support a form of at least 'soft' determinism. There's a lot of things to say 'no' to if you want to claim you're absolutely free.

On a personal note, this reader sees 'free will' as strictly an academic inquiry best left in the study, as Hume put it.





J

I struggle on this issue, and so have men far wiser and far greater than me. Its difficult to assert the notion of free will knowing that behind every act of will there is a chain of causes and effects. They say determinism is no longer viewed by scientists as absolute, but whether that applies to humans and human brains remains to be seen.

Nietzsche said something to the effect of "there are no free and unfree wills, only strong and weak wills."

[Theunderground]

If you have to ask yourself if you have free-will i suggest you are spending far too much energy reading philosophy.

[mazHur]

Free Will is like a Clock which tells time for a certain duration without the intervention of its maker. Then it keeps telling time until its 'prime mover' wants it to or the clock goes dead!

[Jack of Hearts]

Oh come on. It's a perfectly acceptable, self-reflective question. Of course, walking around most of your day while in a state of self reflection probably means too much philosophy.








J

[mazHur]

If humans had free will they would be strolling on the moon!!

[Jack of Hearts]

Oh. Is that how it is? Resorting to the old 'strolling on the moon' argument, are we?

Sir, this reader detests your nihilistic, insidious, un-American undertones. If McCarthy and HUAC were around today, you'd be bound and shackled. Good day.






J

[mazHur]

Perhaps it was for that reason '' former President Harry S. Truman denounced it for being the "most un-American thing in the country today."

[Rores28]

Of course the idea of free will appeals to me. It just doesn't make seem to make sense. Determinism and all that.

[irishpixieb]

We are born free to do what we want in so long as it coincides with our nature. With the whole moon thing, we were not built to live in a place with no oxygen. The same thing goes with anything else that we were not made to do. In our choices, we are free, though. Even if someone is pointing a gun at your head, you still have a choice of whether you are going to go with their demands or not.

The "Adjustment Bureau" was an amazing movie that pondered this question of free will. I highly recommend it! Read up on free will in the Catechism of the Catholic Church if you want to get the catholic insight!

[Theunderground]

'What is it that you read my lord? Words,words,words.'
Come on,free-will is like Porn,you know what it is,its blatantly obvious,and you cant rationalize it away. (unless you use your free-will to deny your fre-will!!) Determinism in philosophy or science just shows the limits of these two 'sciences'.

[mazHur]

human free will is illusory at best

Rebecca Bynum

A point of view by Rebecca Bynum
Here's more from her........http://www.newenglishreview.org/Rebecca_Bynum/Islam,_Predestination_and_Free_Will/

[Rores28]

'What is it that you read my lord? Words,words,words.'
Come on,free-will is like Porn,you know what it is,its blatantly obvious,and you cant rationalize it away. (unless you use your free-will to deny your fre-will!!) Determinism in philosophy or science just shows the limits of these two 'sciences'.

No. I would like to believe in free will, but it does not make any sense. I've been open to plenty of counter arguments to convince me but they just haven't.

Free will exists in the same way that the color red exists. But that is the most that can be said of it.

If you have a book or article with a convincing counter argument that explores a universe that is neither causal, random, or a combination of the two, I would be interested in taking a look.

But if the main thrust of the argument runs something like this.... "If in the future scientists figured out they could predict exactly what someone would do and they asked you to kill your wife, would you?" then don't bother.

[Theunderground]

Well William james in his piece 'The will to believe' presents some good arguments. But i myself will state (without trying to belittle you.) that the possible cause of you denying free-will is listening to and digesting too many 'science theories',or being physcially and mentally tired. You cannot totally compare the material workings of the universe with a human. Even Newtonian physics breaks down at certain levels. Quantum physics shows some form of 'randomness or free-will' as a fundamental property of energy/matter.
But in the final analysis,its like trying to prove love by intellectual or scientific means. You have to feel it or come to it naturally. Free-will is an emotional reality,not an intellectual riddle.

[PoeticPassions]

Wow, reading through this thread was like reading through some bizarre short story by Dostoevsky...


Here is an opinion piece on science and Free Will that I enjoyed reading from the New York Times
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/what-makes-free-will-free/?scp=2&sq=free%20will&st=cse

And another great one from the NY TIMES:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?scp=3&sq=free%20will&st=cse

excerpt from the above:
''In one experiment, some people read a passage from Francis Crick, the molecular biologist, asserting that free will is a quaint old notion no longer taken seriously by intellectuals, especially not psychologists and neuroscientists. Afterward, when compared with a control group that read a different passage from Crick (who died in 2004) these people expressed more skepticism about free will — and promptly cut themselves some moral slack while taking a math test.

Asked to solve a series of arithmetic problems in a computerized quiz, they cheated by getting the answers through a glitch in the computer that they’d been asked not to exploit. The supposed glitch, of course, had been put there as a temptation by the researchers, Kathleen Vohs of the University of Minnesota and Jonathan Schooler of the University of California, Santa Barbara.

In a follow-up experiment, the psychologists gave another test in which people were promised $1 for every correct answer — and got to compile their own scores. Just as Dr. Vohs and Dr. Schooler feared, people were more likely to cheat after being exposed beforehand to arguments against free will. These people went home with more unearned cash than did the other people.....'

....'Free will guides people’s choices toward being more moral and better performers,” Dr. Vohs said. 'It’s adaptive for societies and individuals to hold a belief in free will, as it helps people adhere to cultural codes of conduct that portend healthy, wealthy and happy life outcomes.'”

So I guess, in this sense the idea has appeal...

[Rores28]

Well William james in his piece 'The will to believe' presents some good arguments. But i myself will state (without trying to belittle you.) that the possible cause of you denying free-will is listening to and digesting too many 'science theories',or being physcially and mentally tired. You cannot totally compare the material workings of the universe with a human. Even Newtonian physics breaks down at certain levels. Quantum physics shows some form of 'randomness or free-will' as a fundamental property of energy/matter.
But in the final analysis,its like trying to prove love by intellectual or scientific means. You have to feel it or come to it naturally. Free-will is an emotional reality,not an intellectual riddle.

I came to the conclusion that free will cannot exist on my accord (as much as anyone can come to any conclusion on their own). I did not convince myself through "digesting too many science theories" nor through being tired. In fact when I first came to this realization I was quite active and energetic.

Also randomness does not equate to free will (if this is what you were implying). If your behaviors were completely random this would not indicate what most people consider to be free will. The same goes for a completely causal universe. And the same goes for one that was a mix of randomness and causality.

I don't completely agree with your final analogy. Its as I said with the color red. Few would deny that the wavelength that causes a particular person to see red light is itself red. And few would also deny that that person sees red when stimulated by that wavelength. In fact free will is an emotional reality and an "intellectual riddle."

Lemme be clear here. I feel like I have free will just as much as I see the color red, so in this sense free will, "exists." I don't think anyone is disputing that. What is being disputed is whether or not that is simply a "trick" or contingency of our nervous system / body.

Absent anything in the universe that operates in a manner other than causal or random means, the simplest explanation seems to be that free will (as is conceived of by most people) does not exist.

Also I'm not saying I don't think that there could exist some other "connective mechansim" (besides causality and randomness) in the universe that would indeed mean we have free will, but being that we can't find anything in the universe as such, I have to think free will is merely a contingency of our nervous system, much in the way that red, or cold, or love are.

[Rores28]

Wow, reading through this thread was like reading through some bizarre short story by Dostoevsky...


Here is an opinion piece on science and Free Will that I enjoyed reading from the New York Times
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/what-makes-free-will-free/?scp=2&sq=free%20will&st=cse

And another great one from the NY TIMES:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/science/22tier.html?scp=3&sq=free%20will&st=cse

excerpt from the above:
''In one experiment, some people read a passage from Francis Crick, the molecular biologist, asserting that free will is a quaint old notion no longer taken seriously by intellectuals, especially not psychologists and neuroscientists. Afterward, when compared with a control group that read a different passage from Crick (who died in 2004) these people expressed more skepticism about free will — and promptly cut themselves some moral slack while taking a math test.

Asked to solve a series of arithmetic problems in a computerized quiz, they cheated by getting the answers through a glitch in the computer that they’d been asked not to exploit. The supposed glitch, of course, had been put there as a temptation by the researchers, Kathleen Vohs of the University of Minnesota and Jonathan Schooler of the University of California, Santa Barbara.

In a follow-up experiment, the psychologists gave another test in which people were promised $1 for every correct answer — and got to compile their own scores. Just as Dr. Vohs and Dr. Schooler feared, people were more likely to cheat after being exposed beforehand to arguments against free will. These people went home with more unearned cash than did the other people.....'

....'Free will guides people’s choices toward being more moral and better performers,” Dr. Vohs said. 'It’s adaptive for societies and individuals to hold a belief in free will, as it helps people adhere to cultural codes of conduct that portend healthy, wealthy and happy life outcomes.'”

So I guess, in this sense the idea has appeal...

Thats awesome.

[cafolini]

I came to the conclusion that free will cannot exist on my accord (as much as anyone can come to any conclusion on their own). I did not convince myself through "digesting too many science theories" nor through being tired. In fact when I first came to this realization I was quite active and energetic.

Also randomness does not equate to free will (if this is what you were implying). If your behaviors were completely random this would not indicate what most people consider to be free will. The same goes for a completely causal universe. And the same goes for one that was a mix of randomness and causality.

I don't completely agree with your final analogy. Its as I said with the color red. Few would deny that the wavelength that causes a particular person to see red light is itself red. And few would also deny that that person sees red when stimulated by that wavelength. In fact free will is an emotional reality and an "intellectual riddle."

Lemme be clear here. I feel like I have free will just as much as I see the color red, so in this sense free will, "exists." I don't think anyone is disputing that. What is being disputed is whether or not that is simply a "trick" or contingency of our nervous system / body.

Absent anything in the universe that operates in a manner other than causal or random means, the simplest explanation seems to be that free will (as is conceived of by most people) does not exist.

Also I'm not saying I don't think that there could exist some other "connective mechansim" (besides causality and randomness) in the universe that would indeed mean we have free will, but being that we can't find anything in the universe as such, I have to think free will is merely a contingency of our nervous system, much in the way that red, or cold, or love are.

Free will at max is freedom of choice among what's given and possible. Free will exists, but it does not occur. It is a religious idea of people trying to cope.
Freedom of choice is greater or smaller depending on information at anyone's disposal.
I agree that the analogies given by the person you are critiquing do not apply.

[Rores28]

"Few would deny that the wavelength that causes a particular person to see red light is itself red."

*Edit* This should read: "Few would contend that the wavelength that causes a particular person to see red light is itself red."

[mazHur]

Free Will is like a law. Take it or leave it and face the consequences.

[Ohmyscience]

To detract a little from the subject, if free will does not exists how can a legal system function? I personally think that free will is most likely a human vanity. If we cannot extend free will to animals how can it be an all encompassing rule.

[mazHur]

To detract a little from the subject, if free will does not exists how can a legal system function? I personally think that free will is most likely a human vanity. If we cannot extend free will to animals how can it be an all encompassing rule.

Free Will does not apply to animals......or does it??? How many asses have been tried in a court of law for back-kicking or biting??:)

Court of laws are man-made organizations.... and they and their laws and procedures differ from state to state, place to place.

[Theunderground]

Free-will is like porn. You know full well what it is,and its real...

[cacian]

This is how I would interpret it is I saw it out of context.
Free Will

I would read it like this:

''free the will'' in the sense of ''let your will go freely''.
Which means to me to say to let go of others pressures and constraint and go with your feelings/ideas.

If it was in within a context then no I do not think free will is about things having to happen regardless.
I believe in things because of a reasone.
Like there is an action and then a reaction.
Things don't just because things happens because a driven force.

[mazHur]

Free-will is like porn. You know full well what it is,and its real...

That would be an insult to pornographers!

[cafolini]

To detract a little from the subject, if free will does not exists how can a legal system function? I personally think that free will is most likely a human vanity. If we cannot extend free will to animals how can it be an all encompassing rule.

A legal system is not based on free will. That's a dumb contradiction. If there was free will, we would not need laws. A legal system is based on freedom of given choices and well-publish laws. More than a human vanity it is a human, religious lie.

[mazHur]

A legal system is not based on free will. That's a dumb contradiction. If there was free will, we would not need laws. A legal system is based on freedom of given choices and well-publish laws. More than a human vanity it is a human, religious lie.

In fact Laws are man-made administrative rules to keep people in leash.
Free Will is voluntary, divine.

[Ohmyscience]

I hope I can clarify earlier that there is a supposition of an agency behind those that commit crimes which by a jury of peers can be judged. If this agency (free will) does not exists, then morally speaking punishing criminals is like putting goats on trial for a crime. Also I don't see the distinction between free will and freedom of choices. Even if you are aware of your choices is this awareness done without influence? I liked the comparison between love and free will, in that they both seem to me man made and they gained value over time.

[Rores28]

I hope I can clarify earlier that there is a supposition of an agency behind those that commit crimes which by a jury of peers can be judged. If this agency (free will) does not exists, then morally speaking punishing criminals is like putting goats on trial for a crime. Also I don't see the distinction between free will and freedom of choices. Even if you are aware of your choices is this awareness done without influence? I liked the comparison between love and free will, in that they both seem to me man made and they gained value over time.

Right, very few people don't believe in free will. The underlying philosophy of the justice system is predicated upon it. But even absent free will the justice system is useful, kinda. The threat of punishment deters future crimes, and removing criminals from society and remediating them makes it less likely that crimes will continue to occur.

Yes there is no difference between free will and freedom of choices.