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View Full Version : On Irving's Mountjoy, and on the value of physical science to the humanities



Ragnar Freund
09-22-2011, 08:37 PM
It is interesting that The legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle are Washington Irving’s two most popular tales, whereas Mountjoy (http://www.online-literature.com/irving/crayon-papers/1/), a beautiful philosophical masterpiece, is relatively obscure. Its obscurity is attested to by the fact that a Google search (http://www.google.com/search?q=mountjoy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) for Mountjoy returns no links to Irving’s story on the first page of results! And yet, a great story it is.

As I was reading it, I found an interesting connection between it and another great philosophical tale, Bayard Taylor’s Who was she? (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23166) In both stories, a man falls in love with a woman whose footprints he finds in a secluded area, even though he has never see her in person. In both cases, he become quite obsessed with finding her, and in both tales disappointment ensues, although it comes from different directions in each story. It is, I think, fairly obvious that Taylor borrowed some ideas from Irving, and it is interesting to see whether there are other examples of borrowing on Taylor’s behalf.

Now, back to Mountjoy. It contains many interesting ideas and observations that are presented in small bits and beg further discussion and analysis. Here’s one of them.

Toward the end of the tale, Mr. Somerville advises Mountjoy to turn his attention to physical sciences, at the expense of moral sciences:


"These [physical science] studies," said he, "store a man's mind with valuable facts, and at the same time repress self-confidence, by letting him know how boundless are the realms of knowledge, and how little we can possibly know. Whereas metaphysical studies, though of an ingenious order of intellectual employment, are apt to bewilder some minds with vague speculations. They never know how far they have advanced, or what may be the correctness of their favorite theory. They render many of our young men verbose and declamatory, and prone to mistake the aberrations of their fancy for the inspirations of divine philosophy."


It is indeed a fact that most literary and philosophical scholars today are quite unlearned in the physical sciences, and conversely, that physical scientists are unlearned in the humanities.

Do you think that an education in the physical sciences can make one a better literary or philosophical scholar? Do you agree that without knowledge of the physical world, one’s ability to appreciate art, literature, and philosophy is diminished?

mal4mac
09-26-2011, 07:36 AM
If you step back from your study of the physical sciences and observe, "how boundless are the realms of knowledge", then you are indulging in metaphysics! It's also rather a trite and obvious comment - and certainly not original - this may be why Mountjoy is forgotten, while his (wonderful) tales are remembered.

The whole thrust of Kant's metaphysics was to avoid indulging in vague speculations. Before him many scientists had an inclination to indulge in such speculations. Newton spent more time in useless metaphysical speculations on the Bible than doing physics.

Look at the life story of some acknowledged 'great literary scholars'. You'll find that some had a good grounding in the physical sciences, others had not.

It seems unlikely that having expertise in one field would have much impact on your expertise in a totally different field. If you want to become a professional literary scholar you're better off studying literary theory. Actually doing physical science - solving partial differential equations or learning experimental techniques, say, - would be no use, and would be looked at as eccentric by potential employers.

But, of course, you need to understand the basics of physical and biological science, so you don't look like an idiot when 'evolution' or 'cosmology' crops up in conversation. If you read 'the obvious' popular science books - Dawkins, Hawking, ... - that should be enough to get you by (and, less cyncially, you should learn enough about the Big Bang and Evolution, etc, to satisfy worries that you might be 'missing out' on understanding the big ideas in the physical and biological sciences.)

Certain specialised physical knowledge can certainly help you appreciate some works of art. For instance some knowledge of Greek/medieval astronomy would help you understand parts of Dante's Inferno - but understanding modern physics would be no help at all! Knowledge of Godel's logic and General relativity would help you interpret some of Escher's drawings.

A modern astronomer might know less about medieval astronomy than a Dante scholar who looked closely at the scientific influences on Dante - what physical science you learn (if any) should really be determined by what literary work you are doing.

I have two degrees in the physical sciences, and they didn't make Shakespeare or Dante any easier to understand! I wouldn't call myself a literary scholar, but I'm certain that studying physics had little impact on my ability to appreciate & understand literary works - only reading other literary works, and detailed notes(!), helped to any large degree.

Ragnar Freund
09-26-2011, 09:49 AM
If you step back from your study of the physical sciences and observe, "how boundless are the realms of knowledge", then you are indulging in metaphysics! It's also rather a trite and obvious comment - and certainly not original - this may be why Mountjoy is forgotten, while his (wonderful) tales are remembered.


By "his", I assume you mean Irving. You say the comment is trite and obvious, yet you go on to disagree with it. Is it trite and obvious, or false?
[added: an idea need not be original or even particularly "deep" to arouse an interesting conversation. It's not the idea itself that is important, but what you make of it and how you develop it]


Newton spent more time in useless metaphysical speculations on the Bible than doing physics.

Maybe that's the point? Maybe these biblical musings were not useless? Maybe they expanded his mind and helped him in some indirect way to develop his scientific theories?



Look at the life story of some acknowledged 'great literary scholars'. You'll find that some had a good grounding in the physical sciences, others had not.

It seems unlikely that having expertise in one field would have much impact on your expertise in a totally different field. If you want to become a professional literary scholar you're better off studying literary theory. Actually doing physical science - solving partial differential equations or learning experimental techniques, say, - would be no use, and would be looked at as eccentric by potential employers.


Employers??? I was asking about enhancing one's understanding of literature, not about job-seeking techniques. If one's main concern is finding a job, then one would benefit more from making connections and sucking up to potential employers than from literary studies.



But, of course, you need to understand the basics of physical and biological science, so you don't look like an idiot when 'evolution' or 'cosmology' crops up in conversation.

Again, my concern is not with impressing people in conversation. You take a very utilitarian view of the subject.