Religious Music and Art

[cl154576]

When you encounter music or art centered around a view contrary to your own, how are you affected?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I accept it as art. I do not let the beliefs of others interfere with how I perceive their art (to a point, of course). I listen to heavily Christian-based heavy metal bands. I read books by conservative authors. If the art is good, or I enjoy it, the beliefs don't matter.

When it comes to visual art, I really love religious imagery, actually. Old Renaissance paintings especially. There just seems to be a very dark feel with a lot of them, and I like that.

[stlukesguild]

I have stated here on any number of occasions that I do not look to art to reinforce my own experiences... my own values, standards, beliefs, prejudices, etc... To approach art in such a manner... I feel... is to miss much of its value. Anna Quindlen wrote, "Books (and I would expand this to include the whole of the arts) are a means to immortality." Kafka, among others, agreed, comparing reading with an "intercourse"... "a dialog with the dead." Quindlen continued, "through (the arts) we experience other times, other places; we manage to become more than our own selves." If art has a utilitarian value, it lies here... in the ability to spur on an empathy... a greater understanding of others... an ability to share in the experience of other times, other places, others experiences, other beliefs, other values.

I would also note... that in tandem with the experience of the "other", the greatest art maintains a core of the universal. Experiences common to the whole of humanity are repeated in various guises. Birth, Death, Love, Eros, Friendship, War, Revenge, Motherhood, etc... are themes repeated in an endless array. One need not be a Christian to appreciate the sacrifice and the tragedy of the Passion of Christ. One need not be Hindu to appreciate the celebration of Eros and physical love that is expressed in the temple sculpture of Kandariyâ Mahâdeva. One need not be Jewish to appreciate the tragedy and sense of loss expressed in the Lamentations.

[Vonny]

I have stated here on any number of occasions that I do not look to art to reinforce my own experiences... my own values, standards, beliefs, prejudices, etc... To approach art in such a manner... I feel... is to miss much of its value. Anna Quindlen wrote, "Books (and I would expand this to include the whole of the arts) are a means to immortality." Kafka, among others, agreed, comparing reading with an "intercourse"... "a dialog with the dead." Quindlen continued, "through (the arts) we experience other times, other places; we manage to become more than our own selves." If art has a utilitarian value, it lies here... in the ability to spur on an empathy... a greater understanding of others... an ability to share in the experience of other times, other places, others experiences, other beliefs, other values.

I would also note... that in tandem with the experience of the "other", the greatest art maintains a core of the universal. Experiences common to the whole of humanity are repeated in various guises. Birth, Death, Love, Eros, Friendship, War, Revenge, Motherhood, etc... are themes repeated in an endless array. One need not be a Christian to appreciate the sacrifice and the tragedy of the Passion of Christ. One need not be Hindu to appreciate the celebration of Eros and physical love that is expressed in the temple sculpture of Kandariyâ Mahâdeva. One need not be Jewish to appreciate the tragedy and sense of loss expressed in the Lamentations.


This makes sense to me.

[Lokasenna]

I try to maintain much the same view as Luke. Churches, and the religious art therein, are one of my passions. I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate the art and architecture for what it is.

The only time I come close to slipping is with music. As a musical form, I really love masses - and it is sometimes very hard not to be carried along by the force of the music. As I type these words, I'm about a third of the way through Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, and I'll admit that I find it profoundly spiritually affecting.

It is, I suppose, based upon making a distinction between the glory of God, and the glory of man's statements to God. It is sometimes quite hard to seperate these two, particularly in music.

[Vonny]

I try to maintain much the same view as Luke. Churches, and the religious art therein, are one of my passions. I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate the art and architecture for what it is.

The only time I come close to slipping is with music. As a musical form, I really love masses - and it is sometimes very hard not to be carried along by the force of the music. As I type these words, I'm about a third of the way through Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, and I'll admit that I find it profoundly spiritually affecting.

It is, I suppose, based upon making a distinction between the glory of God, and the glory of man's statements to God. It is sometimes quite hard to seperate these two, particularly in music.

I don't know why, but my mind insists on fitting you right into that Christian art. You belong in the painting, or something.

(I feel so bad to torment poor Lokasenna, but it's true.)

I also love the music. I get spiritually affected. Sometimes I don't know what I believe. But my mother just told me, the only thing I need to remember is to be patient and never to take the Lord's name in vain.

Why is that everything I write comes out so stupid? I never had any idea how stupid I was until I came to this forum.

[lawpark]

I try to maintain much the same view as Luke. Churches, and the religious art therein, are one of my passions. I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate the art and architecture for what it is.

The only time I come close to slipping is with music. As a musical form, I really love masses - and it is sometimes very hard not to be carried along by the force of the music. As I type these words, I'm about a third of the way through Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, and I'll admit that I find it profoundly spiritually affecting.

It is, I suppose, based upon making a distinction between the glory of God, and the glory of man's statements to God. It is sometimes quite hard to seperate these two, particularly in music.

I am not Christian but like Masses too ... Bach's B-Minor (especially the early part) and Mozart's C Minor. I recalled Schubert D950 was good too, oh, and Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.

[MystyrMystyry]

I've been thinking about this quite a lot lately, cl. The main reason for me to read, watch, listen etc to anything is the alternative to my own life through someone else's expression. Even a nature documentary on bugs hypnotises me in - but that's perhaps off topic.

There's a movie coming up in few minutes called Papillon which I haven't seen for years, and am quite excited at seeing again, though personally I have no interest in being incarcerated on Devil's Island, even with Dustin Hoffman and Steve McQueen speaking in the funniest French accents I've ever heard


Mutatis - good points all. I like a lot of things that are seemingly contradictory, but when I come across the best in its field (at least to me) then forget I ever said anything sweepingly against the era it was produced in (for instance the entire Victorian era - except for Dickens, Carrol, Collins, Turner, etc etc - and then I'm just useless at the power of their art)


Luke, you're right on that, with the entire appreciation/respect of all human experience featured in the best art, that recently I was amazed at Plato's The Republic, being such an ancient alien view of Utopia yet still as if it was speaking to me directly, as though I was a familiar of his (not the best example of great themes, just a recent one)


Loki, now you've really hit on it there. I've been compelled to notice that religious classical music is far above and beyond the norm for an emotional/spiritual lift. Take virtually any symphony or opera that you enjoy (I don't enjoy them all), and in contrast with a religious work they tend to be flat and insipid, even uninspired to the point of being completely opposite


Vonny, your confidence seems to be growing quite radically - maybe you've needed a place like this to air a bit about yourself. Life is a learning process (amongst other things) and some kids have rough starts to it. No one's actually dumb, just at different levels of education - we're all smartish in some areas and (totally) naive in things outside of our experience, and one of the best ways to learn and acquire new information is to talk to new and different people


Anyway - the movie's about to start :)

[stlukesguild]

I try to maintain much the same view as Luke. Churches, and the religious art therein, are one of my passions. I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate the art and architecture for what it is.

The only time I come close to slipping is with music. As a musical form, I really love masses - and it is sometimes very hard not to be carried along by the force of the music. As I type these words, I'm about a third of the way through Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, and I'll admit that I find it profoundly spiritually affecting.

It is, I suppose, based upon making a distinction between the glory of God, and the glory of man's statements to God. It is sometimes quite hard to seperate these two, particularly in music.

Of course this makes sense. In spite of Neely's hatred of advertising conveyed over on the Public Nudity thread, the church and the state and various other powers that be have long understood and employed the power of art. You cannot deny the seductiveness of the Catholic Church. Imagine entering Notre Dame, Paris during the Middle-Ages. You would have been surrounded by the architecture of a building larger than anything else you might have known. In contrast to the simple popular tunes churned out on an accordion or lute in the bars and taverns, you would have been overwhelmed with the sounds of the organ and massed voices of the choir. In contrast to the stench of everyday life where bathing and sanitation were almost unknown, the smell of costly incense would have filled the air. Looking around you, you would have been awed at the beauty of the gloriously painted and gilded images of saints... the Madonna more beautiful in her glorious raiment with her exquisite wistful smile, than any woman you had ever seen in real life. The light itself would seem the very face of God as it flooded over you in resplendence through the stained glass windows. The whole of the rituals... the arraignment of the priests and bishops and cardinals in sumptuous satin, velvet, and lace... all would have led you to believe that indeed, you were standing in the very presence of God.

Certainly, the Counter-Reformation saw a blatant attempt to employ the arts as a means of seducing the audience... as a form of spiritual theater. The virtuosity of the Baroque in art owes much to this effort to captivate and mesmerize. The Protestants were known for their iconoclasm or rejection of imagery, but even Martin Luther could not reject the seduction of music. Even today, music remains the art form that a great majority identify the most with... are are most seduced by. Farinelli, Paganini, Liszt, jazz, Frank Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles, on to the present, all had the power to seduce and whip their audience into a frenzy.

[Lokasenna]

Certainly, the church has long been a part of the mental fabric of the western world. I mean, I live in a city where this can be seen from pretty much everywhere:

http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/DurhamCathedral.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Durham_Cathedral_and_Castle.jpg

It dominates the city, and is visible from miles around. Even a thousand years after it was built, it still has the capacity to inspire powerful emotions. I've lived here for two years, and it still has as profound an effect on me as when I first arrived. It is simply impossible to imagine Durham without its cathedral - it is the keystone of the entire city. As I have said, I am not a Christian - but nonetheless as a testament to man's dedication to God throughout the ages, it is a source of wonder.

The same is true of music. Religious fervour is a supremely motivating force. Never is Elgar the catholic more at his creative zenith than when he is working with the poetry of Cardinal Newman. I might not subscribe to the sentiment, but the force of the feeling is transparently genuine, and carries you with it whether you want it to or not:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAbOgpcSEYg

Take Haydn as well, my favourite composer of masses. He is a very great composer who is at his absolute best in his masses - I do not think that it is a coincidence that he was a profoundly religious man. Listen to the barnstorming kyrie of the Nelson Mass - intense, turbulent emotions laid out in full openness, a wild cry for salvation to God in a time of terrible war. It reflects, powerfully, the sometimes difficult burden of faith; it is not simply an abstract piece of music, but carries a sense of dialogue, of which we hear only one side:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JRDB09pZB0

And let's not forget Rachmaninov. Everyone loves the second and third piano concertos, but a close runner up in the popularity ratings are his Vespers. The sounds and sentiments of his boyhood in the Eastern Orthodox faith permeate these beautiful pieces, a ravishing sense of nostalgia that weaves truthfully through the works as a whole. I've only been to a few Eastern Orthodox services, but I can see the verisimilitude of Rachmaninov's vision, and the sense of affection is palpable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEHufcT3jmw

[stlukesguild]

Speaking of inspiring music, I've got tickets to see/hear this tonight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciKr8NUmKs&feature=related

:party:

[cl154576]

Why is that everything I write comes out so stupid? I never had any idea how stupid I was until I came to this forum.

On the contrary, it sounds fine. I am sure most of what I say is gibberish.


I try to maintain much the same view as Luke. Churches, and the religious art therein, are one of my passions. I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate the art and architecture for what it is.

The only time I come close to slipping is with music. As a musical form, I really love masses - and it is sometimes very hard not to be carried along by the force of the music. As I type these words, I'm about a third of the way through Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, and I'll admit that I find it profoundly spiritually affecting.

It is, I suppose, based upon making a distinction between the glory of God, and the glory of man's statements to God. It is sometimes quite hard to seperate these two, particularly in music.

I find myself slipping more with music, especially when I play it. "Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian."

Do you think it is possible to perform a very religious work well without being religious?


How was the concert, stlukes? Who was performing?

[stlukesguild]

Do you think it is possible to perform a very religious work well without being religious?

Certainly. One may not embrace the belief but still fully grasp the very real human emotions behind a given theme. I think immediately of Caravaggio. His beliefs are questionable. He was a notoriously violent man. He pandered erotic paintings of pubescent boys to high-ranking clergy with a penchant for under-aged homoerotic images. He notoriously killed a man in a street brawl over the results of a tennis match. Nevertheless... he was able to paint something as profoundly moving as this:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6136161537_a7922f7f76_b.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6136707738_a92a542cb4_b.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6178/6136707884_77c51e2eb2_b.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6201/6136161939_6665bf71c8_b.jpg

Caravaggio's religious paintings are absolutely seething with emotion and passion. Standing before his deposition I was absolutely stunned. I must have spent a half hour or longer before this single painting. No matter what his beliefs and shortcomings may have been, he was able to capture the human element of the spiritual narratives with an absolute conviction.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Those are some really amazing paintings. I've never heard of him.

[MystyrMystyry]

Caravaggio was an absolute phenomenon, like Bach, Mozart and Shakespeare, but in paint. There's a particularly good Italian television series biopic thing (bioseries?) that tries to put his alleged violence in perspective - and succeeds. He lived in incredibly violent times.

For example there was an 'art mafia' in Naples, consisting of three 'art thugs' who would stand over commissioned artists, destroy their art in progress, and if that failed beat them up (and even murder them!), anything to run them out of town so they'd get the commissions instead.

Great time to try to earn a good reputation.

But he was a freak in other ways as well - he never needed a proper studio nor even preliminary sketches, just painted it straight down, and a true standout light in his generation.

But curiously his extreme chiaroscuro slowly fell out of favour after his death, and he went largely unappreciated for centuries (there are a few pintings much lighter in tone, including an exceptional Venice city scape that kept his name floating around, but much of his work was taken off walls and stored in dungeons for centuries.

Again, one of my favorites :)

[ftil]

I like Caravaggio art. These paintings are my faviorite.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Caravaggio_-_Taking_of_Christ_-_Dublin.jpg/780px-Caravaggio_-_Taking_of_Christ_-_Dublin.jpg

The Taking of Christ, National Gallery of Ireland, Dublin.




It looks like he has a dark aureole. Like on Benozzo Gozzoli's paintings, Scenes from the Life of St Francis.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Caravaggio_-_San_Gerolamo.jpg/800px-Caravaggio_-_San_Gerolamo.jpg

St. Jerome, Galleria Borghese, Rome.





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_11%2C _south_wall%29_-_WGA10242.jpg/580px-Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_11%2C _south_wall%29_-_WGA10242.jpg

Benozzo Gozzoli, Scenes from the Life of St Francis





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_10%2C _north_wall%29_-_WGA10241.jpg/553px-Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_10%2C _north_wall%29_-_WGA10241.jpg

Scenes from the Life of St Francis





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_4%2C_ south_wall%29_-_WGA10234.jpg/800px-Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_4%2C_ south_wall%29_-_WGA10234.jpg

Scenes from the Life of St Francis






http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_3%2C_ south_wall%29_-_WGA10233.jpg/778px-Benozzo_Gozzoli_-_Scenes_from_the_Life_of_St_Francis_%28Scene_3%2C_ south_wall%29_-_WGA10233.jpg

Scenes from the Life of St Francis

[stlukesguild]

For example there was an 'art mafia' in Naples, consisting of three 'art thugs' who would stand over commissioned artists, destroy their art in progress, and if that failed beat them up (and even murder them!), anything to run them out of town so they'd get the commissions instead.

This was not unique to Naples. Competition for commissions quite often were underhanded and turned violent. Durer was advised by Bellini to employ a food taster out of fear of attempts of poisoning by jealous competitors. El Greco was literally driven out of Italy after making unpopular comments concerning Michelangelo. A good many artists depended upon powerful patrons as a means of protection from such threats of violence.

But curiously his extreme chiaroscuro slowly fell out of favour after his death, and he went largely unappreciated for centuries (there are a few pintings much lighter in tone, including an exceptional Venice city scape that kept his name floating around, but much of his work was taken off walls and stored in dungeons for centuries.

Actually, Caravaggio slipped out of the limelight... but his innovations remained highly influential. There were a number of artists in Italy and Holland who quickly picked up upon his dramatic chiaroscuro who later became known as the "Caravaggisti"... Among these were...

Bartolomeo Manfredi-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6188/6138518670_1099355079_z.jpg

Barbara Strozzi-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6138518712_c956ed8f3c_z.jpg

Orazio Gentileschi-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6209/6137972023_4a488df638_z.jpg

Gerard van Honthhorst-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6155/6137972435_2977a5b306_b.jpg

Hendrick ter Brugghen-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6171/6137972253_d0492b0102_b.jpg

Giovanni Battista Salvi da Sassoferrato-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6174/6137972639_283d0bb2c4_z.jpg

... and Artemisia Gentileschi-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6153/6138548902_cac4a2663e_z.jpg

Unfortunately, in many cases these followers of Caravaggio became better known than Caravaggio himself. This was due to several factors. Caravaggio's work was surrounded with a degree of scandal due to in part to aspects of his biography... but also due to the unsettling aspects of realism in his work. The painting of The Death of the Virgin, for example, offended by reason of the harsh reality of the less-than-idealized saints in dirty clothes as well as the fact that the Virgin herself had been painted from the bloated dead body of a well-known prostitute who had been fished from the river.

Caravaggio also lacked any student to carry on his name and reputation. His reputation was further undermined by the artist/historian (and rival) Giovanni Baglione...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6175/6138578492_a48eae69a7_z.jpg

... who sought to erase Caravaggio's fame and influence in contrast to his own. There was also the impact of the critic, Giovan Bellori, who was influenced heavily by Pousin, the great French Baroque classicist, who openly expressed a hatred of Caravaggio's work.

Caravaggio's subsequent influence, however, was immense... even if the artists were unaware of the original source. Peter Paul Ruben was one of Caravaggio's great admirers. Vincenzo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua, purchased the painting of The Death of the Virgin on the advice of Rubens. While the Flemish artist commonly employed a lighter palette, the influence of Caravaggio upon his work remains undeniable.

continued...

[stlukesguild]

Neither can we imagine an entire array of later artists across Europe without Caravaggio:

Georges de la Tour-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/6138069677_c4b04e1e9b_z.jpg

Jusepe de Ribera-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6071/6137972603_8d39bdb1a1_z.jpg

Francisco de Zurbaran-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/6138077267_465f9406a7_z.jpg

Diego Velasquez-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6157/6138518814_bf4e752bc8_b.jpg

Rembrandt van Rijn-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6087/6138519624_a961a1f003_z.jpg

Vermeer-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6072/6138656624_fcc52d4cd2_z.jpg

Guercino-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6138109031_e0e23b79eb_z.jpg

Chardin-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6161/6138109115_5046b1ae33_z.jpg

Jacques Louis David-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6073/6138656958_91c7739524_b.jpg

Goya-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6081/6138657082_109f722937_z.jpg

Eugene Delacroix-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6189/6138109475_b673496c74_z.jpg

Gericault-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6200/6138109571_9ca48e387b_b.jpg

William Bouguereau and largely the whole of the French Academy-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6138656998_292856aace_z.jpg

Gustave Courbet-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6171/6138657190_ab75b36fed_b.jpg

Thomas Eakins-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6080/6138657222_857d2aaebd_z.jpg

and on through Andrew Wyeth and the present-
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6064/6138110159_5df11a27dd_z.jpg

The extreme chiaroscuro... or "tenebrism" slipped in and out of popularity. It was certainly rare during the Rococo when candy colors and a light palette were dominant... and it (along with "realism" as a whole) certainly slipped out of popularity again with the Impressionists on through most of Modernism... but even today it remains a major inspiration. Caravaggio clearly ranks along Michelangelo, Leonardo, Giotto, Rubens... and few others as one of the most influential artists in the whole of Western art.

[stlukesguild]

It looks like he has a dark aureole. Like on Benozzo Gozzoli's paintings, Scenes from the Life of St Francis.

This is not intended as a dark aureole, but rather a halo shaped like a thin ring... quite common in the Baroque and later...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6190/6138781966_d8abdded05.jpg

In the other examples of "black" or dark halos, it is quite likely that over time the gold leaf that commonly adorned such corroded... or was even scraped off by looters...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6198/6138236059_c920830f0a_z.jpg

It is even possible that in some cases the gold leaf, which quite often was applied by an artisan other than the painter... (the painters and goldsmiths being of separate guilds) was never even applied leaving a dark ground.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Does anyone know if any of Caravaggio's work is at the Louvre?

[stlukesguild]

One of the best art sites for the old masters:

http://www.wga.hu/index.html

After a quick perusal there appear to be 3 paintings by Caravaggio in the Louvre. The most important of these is the brilliant Death of the Virgin:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6178/6136707884_77c51e2eb2_b.jpg

[OrphanPip]

I got to see the Gentileshi at the Carravagio And his Followers exhibit in Ottawa two weeks ago. It really is a striking painting, photographs don't do justice to the size and vibrancy of these paintings.

[ftil]

stlukesguild wrote:
This is not intended as a dark aureole, but rather a halo shaped like a thin ring... quite common in the Baroque and later...

n the other examples of "black" or dark halos, it is quite likely that over time the gold leaf that commonly adorned such corroded... or was even scraped off by looters..

We don’t know the intentions of the artists or their sponsors. :ihih: We can only make assumptions and I avoid making assumptions. I am not satisfied with your explanation. Aureoles were used in Greek mythology, Christianity, or Hindu. But they weren’t black like on the paintings I have posted. We can’t deny that they were black. :biggrinjester: But there are more paintings with themes that make me ask question.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I like Caravaggio art. These paintings are my faviorite.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Caravaggio_-_Taking_of_Christ_-_Dublin.jpg/780px-Caravaggio_-_Taking_of_Christ_-_Dublin.jpg

The Taking of Christ, National Gallery of Ireland, Dublin.


I've seen this one in the flesh a few years ago on a trip to Dublin. I completely gasped at it as I walked into the room, it dominated everything else. The sheen on the armour in particular is unbelievable for me, probably helped by it's central position in the painting, but to my untrained art eye it just seems so unbelievable real. I think that if I had of touched the work, apart from getting kicked out, my hands would have struck metal. I think there were some more caravaggio in the National Gallery as well, but I think this one was the central piece.

Oh, I agree about the power of church advertising/propaganda whatever you call it as Stluke's and Loka commented upon, it's pretty powerful stuff especially in comparison to everything else around at the time, but even today the power of the church - the atmosphere, music, art all combine to be extremely emotive indeed as I have seen and felt before many times.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Any time I go to an art museum, my favorite section is always the religious Renaissance-era paintings, and I'm quite anti-religious.

I'm really looking forward to seeing his work in it's real state in a month or so.

[Lokasenna]

I've had the pleasure of seeing quite a few of Caravaggio's works in the flesh. They always jump out at you - you know it cannot be anyone other than Caravaggio.

As for his failings as a human being, I think they're irrelevant. Many of history's greatest artistic geniuses have been repellant people.

Also, I was thinking, can we look at it from the other perspective. Rather than religion expressed through music and art, can we see art itself as manifestation of something sacred. Some very few pieces of music are, for me, an experience much akin to religious fever. Sometimes (usually with Wagner) I feel myself touching the divine...

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Also, I was thinking, can we look at it from the other perspective. Rather than religion expressed through music and art, can we see art itself as manifestation of something sacred. Some very few pieces of music are, for me, an experience much akin to religious fever. Sometimes (usually with Wagner) I feel myself touching the divine...
I get the same way from heavy metal. It's a different kind of divine, but still divine.

[Vonny]

I get the same way from heavy metal. It's a different kind of divine, but still divine.

You're not going to have any hearing left if you keep listening to that Mutatis. I happen to know that you're multifaceted and also enjoy Debussy's Clair de Lune just as much - that's really beautiful, Thank you. I decided to try, for a little while, an SSRI like you take (you inspired me to try it) so maybe I'll be listening to heavy metal also, I don't know! Sometimes I wish I smoked, because your "chill" solution is probably what I really need.


Vonny, your confidence seems to be growing quite radically - maybe you've needed a place like this to air a bit about yourself. Life is a learning process (amongst other things) and some kids have rough starts to it. No one's actually dumb, just at different levels of education - we're all smartish in some areas and (totally) naive in things outside of our experience, and one of the best ways to learn and acquire new information is to talk to new and different people

Thanks MystyrMystyry. And thanks to everyone who puts up with me! I'm a slow learner, but in time... In the meantime the music and art and personalities here are so pleasant to experience.


On the contrary, it sounds fine. I am sure most of what I say is gibberish.

No, you have quite a mind for a 13 year-old, and you started such a good thread here.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

You're not going to have any hearing left if you keep listening to that Mutatis. I happen to know that you're multifaceted and also enjoy Debussy's Clair de Lune just as much - that's really beautiful, Thank you. I decided to try, for a little while, an SSRI like you take (you inspired me to try it) so maybe I'll be listening to heavy metal also, I don't know! Sometimes I wish I smoked, because your "chill" solution is probably what I really need.
Yes, my hearing is already noticeably not as good as others, especially in loud places with a lot of conversation, which makes it hard for me to distinguish a single voice. Alas, it's the price one pays, and I don't mind.

I don't smoke, though I can understand how one may assume I do. :lol: The coughing would not be good. Still, if I could, I have a feeling I'd be a pretty big stoner.

[stlukesguild]

I was thinking, can we look at it from the other perspective. Rather than religion expressed through music and art, can we see art itself as manifestation of something sacred.

I think a lot of artists have thought of art... to some extent... in this manner. I am reminded of the conversation between Picasso and Matisse while the elder artist was employed upon the designs for the Chapelle du Rosaire de Vence. Picasso challenged Matisse, asking, "I thought you don't believe in God." Matisse responded (in so many words) "I do when I am making art".

[stlukesguild]

As for his failings as a human being, I think they're irrelevant. Many of history's greatest artistic geniuses have been repellant people.

Gesualdo certainly had Caravaggio beat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo

And yet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVW8GCnr9-I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md4HB96MY-U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhuZ9GHT9pQ&feature=related

[ftil]

I've seen this one in the flesh a few years ago on a trip to Dublin. I completely gasped at it as I walked into the room, it dominated everything else. The sheen on the armour in particular is unbelievable for me, probably helped by it's central position in the painting, but to my untrained art eye it just seems so unbelievable real. I think that if I had of touched the work, apart from getting kicked out, my hands would have struck metal. I think there were some more caravaggio in the National Gallery as well, but I think this one was the central piece.



I am not as lucky as you are. :wink5:

[stlukesguild]

I've had the chance to see several Caravaggios in person... including one on a regular basis:

The Met/NY has two early paintings by the artist:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6172/6143885942_f783741015_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6154/6143886008_6ddd6de34d_z.jpg

These are marvelous paintings... but have yet to attain the brilliance and drama of his mature works.

Detroit has a real beauty of Mary Magdalene which caught me off guard as I hadn't been expecting a major Caravaggio of such quality there. I remember checking the placard... not believing it could be what I thought it was.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6182/6143886122_310719d7d2_z.jpg

My hometown museum, Cleveland, has another stand-out piece that overwhelms most of the rest of the Baroque collection. The subject is the Crucifixion of St. Andrew:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6197/6143336283_8a3d748fc8_z.jpg

The finest painting by the artist that I have seen, however, is unquestionably the Deposition from the Vatican. I saw it as part of an exhibition of work from the Vatican. The painting was presented alone in a room that had been painted burgundy to match the somber mood of the painting. A large bench was placed before it so that one might spend some time with it as with a holy relic. I spent at least a half hour absolutely overwhelmed. I had long admired Caravaggio, although he had little influence upon my own work. I far preferred (and still do) many other painters. Yet this painting made it clear that the artist was fully deserving of the high esteem and degree of influence he had over the whole of art.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/6143886192_76f827acdf_z.jpg

As OrphanPip suggested, the reproductions don't begin to do justice to these paintings. It is like listening to Beethoven's 9th on an old Victrola.

[ftil]

Stlukesguild wrote:

The finest painting by the artist that I have seen, however, is unquestionably the Deposition from the Vatican.

I have seen the Deposition. It is a pure joy to see a painting not a photo. :smile5:
What about William Holman Hunt.



http://www.artchive.com/artchive/h/hunt/hunt_light_of_world.jpg

The Light of the World



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/William_Holman_Hunt_-_The_Finding_of_the_Saviour_in_the_Temple.jpg/800px-William_Holman_Hunt_-_The_Finding_of_the_Saviour_in_the_Temple.jpg

The Finding of the Saviour in the Temple

[stlukesguild]

Personally, I find much of Holman-Hunt's work to be garish in the extreme. His color sense is absolutely atrocious... even though he was attempting an adherence to local color that was in some ways similar to what the Impressionists were far more successful at.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I like the color. Seems to give it a bit of a surreal feel.

[ftil]

Personally, I find much of Holman-Hunt's work to be garish in the extreme. His color sense is absolutely atrocious... even though he was attempting an adherence to local color that was in some ways similar to what the Impressionists were far more successful at.

I have noticed that we like different art. :wink5: I look at feelings that the painting evokes as well as the beauty that touches my soul.

[cl154576]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6154/6143886008_6ddd6de34d_z.jpg


I think I saw another version of this when I was in the Hermitage this summer, but there were so many masterpieces there and I was so rushed, I'm not sure if I remember correctly.

[OrphanPip]

I got to see the first lute player painting, and the Mary Magdalene one at the recent exhibit.

The Mary Magdalene was a gift to the Detroit museum from the Ford family, according to the painting list from the exhibit. There used to be a lot of money in cars :p.