9/11 - Where Were You?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

This is not intended to be a political discussion.

In two days, as you undoubtedly know, it will have been ten years since the 9/11 terrorist attacks in America. I thought it'd be apropos to share each other's memories of that day--where you were, what you felt, who you were with, etc. I'd also like to hear from people outside the US, a perspective we, as Americans, rarely get.

I remember the day well. Actually, I remember that day more vividly than any other day of my life. I got to school around 8:15, and my first hour English class was meeting in the library instead of the regular classroom since we were doing a research project. I remember two of the library workers standing in a corner of the library with a TV pointed towards them and thinking it strange. A student came in and told us he heard that a plane had hit a building in New York City. I, I think like a lot of people before actually seeing it, assumed it was a small one-or-two passenger plane.

When I got to my second hour class, civics, our teacher had the TV on, and all we did was watch it and talk about it. I just remember sitting there, amazed because it didn't seem real. I saw the towers collapse live, and the whole class just gasped. It was unbelievable.

The rest of the school day was pretty much devoted to watching it on TV and talking about it. It seemed every teacher became a councilor of sorts. I remember a couple teachers who tried having class as usual, but it didn't work. It was the only subject of conversation in the halls. When I got home from school that day, I turned on the TV and watched it some more.

It's something I'll never forget. Much like people who lived when Pearl Harbor was attacked, it will never leave me.

[cl154576]

All I remember is my parents telling me a tower fell. Now I understand the significance, but I suppose I could be excused then, as I was only three ...

[Lokasenna]

I was in Mr Trevett's history class. I can't believe it was a decade ago.

I only found out about it in the evening. I remember the school bus broke down, as it was wont to do, and dad had to come and pick me up from a lay-by on the motorway. It was he who told me.

Terrible business.

[JuniperWoolf]

I was in grade eight. When we got to class, the first tower had just been hit but the second one hadn't yet. Our teacher asked us if we knew what happened and the only person who's parents put the radio on during their morning routine was a kid named Bill, so he was all informed which annoyed everyone because Bill was a douche.

Anyway, Mr. Hula told us that something very important had happened in the world and that we should try to cement everything that we see and hear that day into our memories because some day younger generations will ask us about it (he said "one day, people are going to ask what you did on the day that the world trade centers were hit," and what do you know!). Then we went to the library with the school's other grade eight class and they put on the tv maybe five minutes before the first tower collapsed. When it did, we were stunned but I was sure at the time that there weren't any people left in there (I obviously learned differently later). I remember the other class's teacher, Mrs. Fester, murmured "well, god damn." It was the first time that I had heard a teacher swear.

I spent the next few days trying to learn who organized it and the next few months watching everyone freak out on tv, but I was somewhat dissociated from what was happening because I was a kid. I just tried to pay very close attention to the sequence of events because the adults were acting so serious and because Mr. Hula told me to.

[Vonny]

I didn't go to school that day. It was evening before I knew about it. I still haven't seen complete television coverage of it. For some reason, that I don't understand, this event doesn't impact me in the way that many other horrors do, such a depiction of an individual child being tortured.

[Lokasenna]

Anyway, Mr. Hula told us that something very important had happened in the world and that we should try to cement everything that we see and hear that day into our memories because some day younger generations will ask us about it (he said "one day, people are going to ask what you did on the day that the world trade centers were hit," and what do you know!). Then we went to the library with the school's other grade eight class and they put on the tv maybe five minutes before the first tower collapsed. When it did, we were stunned but I was sure at the time that there weren't any people left in there (I obviously learned differently later). I remember the other class's teacher, Mrs. Fester, murmured "well, god damn." It was the first time that I had heard a teacher swear.

It was actually revealed later that the teachers were all aware of it thanks to the radio in the staffroom, but they all decided not to say anything to the students so that the day's teaching would not be interrupted. I've still not come to a decision about whether that was justified or not.

In my parents' shop, they knew about it quite early because the wife of one of our employees phoned up to tell her husband about it. My dad took the TV from the staffroom and set it up on a table in the shop, so that the customers could see the rolling news. Apparently loads of people just forgot completely about their shopping, so entranced were they by the horror unfolding across the pond.

[Vonny]

I had a doctor's appointment that day a few hours after it happened, and no one mentioned it to me. I still haven't read the details of it, of the individuals involved, and now when I'm in the hospital ER lobby and the anniversary of it is on TV, I turn away from it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I was at work, in the other job I had before this one, and someone heard about it on the radio. However, they didn't bother to tell anybody about it, so eight hours later I saw it on the news when I got in. Nothing stops the work ritual.

[Helga]

it was around 9 in the morning here on the ice and I was skipping class and buying french fries to take home. I remember watching it on tv and thinking how it reminded me of alien invasion movies, it was unreal.

[lawpark]

I was in Beijing, a home-week for a 3-month long project in Tokyo. The Beijing office head (my boss) called, and told me the World Trade Center fell ... I thought he was joking ... and he said "I never joked about people's life" and then I knew it was real ...

This discussion thread makes me realize the generation gap I have with my fellow forum-members ...

[irinmisfit92]

I didn't recall anything partly because I was only 9 years old during that time and 9/11 wasn't that of a big news in my country. Indonesia was more isolated back then and even if it was big on the news, many people didn't really concern themselves with the news because the country had their own plethora of problems and preferred watching soccer rather than news.

I think it was my Mom or Dad who told me about it, but as a primary school student my friends and I were very ignorant of these kinds of things. Dad never really allowed me to watch much TV; just the news; so I probably caught the news from watching the telly in his room around those days.

[Paulclem]

I had been teaching that day, and hadn't heard anything about it. I was in town on Trinity Street and popped into a bakers to buy a pasty. The woman behind the counter and another customer were talking about it and I asked them what had been going on. Thet told me about seeing the planes crashing into the towers.

I went home and my wife had sky news on. They were doing reports about what had happened and I watched it then. The bakery has since shut.

It will be one of those moments - as has been noted - when people ask you where you were such as when Nelson Mandela was released and JFK was shot.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Interesting stories, all.

[TheFifthElement]

I'd taken my son for a scan that morning on his hips, and had taken him back to nursery and was driving back home when they announced what had happened on the news. I went home and put the TV on and didn't move for hours after that. We watched the whole thing in total, abject horror. I think that's one of the worst things about it - the fact that you could watch it all unfolding live, as it happened. Most of the time with disasters and atrocities you find out about it afterwards, you see the aftermath or eyewitness footage and that's it and it has kind of a shielding quality to it when you see things after the event. But this was all right there, and no matter that I was hundreds of miles away across the ocean I was witnessing a terrible event as it happened. Unforgettable, and terrifying.

Thoughts are with the people of New York today.

[JazzJazz]

I was 8 years old when it happened so unfortunately I don't remember :( I remember the aftermath though. All lessons in school were cancelled and we were given talks on it. Although I don't remember exactly where I was when it happened, it's still had a huge impact on my life in regards to how safe I feel and how I view the world.

My thoughts and best wishes go out to everyone involved and affected by that dark day.

[Hurricane]

Sixth grade math class.

At the time, I couldn't comprehend how much that morning would subtly change the trajectory of my life forever. I didn't lose anyone on 9/11 and have been lucky not to in the wars since, but I wouldn't be where I am or who I am without the events of that day.

[OrphanPip]

I was in high school at the time, the teachers didn't mention it, but the news got around school through word of mouth. Anyway, after school I went to a friend's house and watched the news with him and his mother for a bit.

[JuniperWoolf]

I've still not come to a decision about whether that was justified or not.

Hmm, I've been thinking about this for the last day or so and I think your teachers should have told you guys. 9/11 was a pretty signifigant part of our history (as humans, I mean). It was the largest mass-murder and the greatest attack ever organized and just think about the fallout. I often read about signifigant events in history textbooks and wonder what it would be like to observe the changes that take place completely raw and in their entirity. It's almost... dissapointing... that you weren't made aware of what was going on as early as possible (early enough to feel the shock, helplessness and confusion and on such a global scale, as strange and unpleasant as that might sound - I think that it must be a rare thing that we experienced).

[The Comedian]

I was workin' my first real job at a mid-size computer company in the East Coast of the US -- not too far from NYC, actually. I hated that job. I had to dress like a banker and write web-content for a computer/banking company.

I remember going to the break room for like my 6th or 7th cup of coffee (I needed frequent "tedium" breaks like this), and they had the TV on as usual. But instead of the normal stock-market report shows that were on, the news was on and people were all standing around the TV.

I noticed that one of 'em was a VP, so I kept watching too -- thinking that I wouldn't get in trouble if one of the big shots was there watching. I think the first plane had already hit the tower before I walked in, and the talk was about that. Everyone thought that it was an accident.

Then this I remember for sure: I was drinking my coffee and talking with someone and watching the live coverage of the first tower smouldering and such, when we saw the second plane crash into the second tower. . . . . that was a profound moment: no accident. The guy next to me said, "it's no accident. What the ****?"

Then pretty much the whole company crammed into the break room and watch TV for hours and hours. It was weird because we were, partly, waiting form something more to happen. The Pentagon and the crash in the field. . . .

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Hmm, I've been thinking about this for the last day or so and I think your teachers should have told you guys. 9/11 was a pretty signifigant part of our history (as humans, I mean). It was the largest mass-murder and the greatest attack ever organized and just think about the fallout. I often read about signifigant events in history textbooks and wonder what it would be like to observe the changes that take place completely raw and in their entirity. It's almost... dissapointing... that you weren't made aware of what was going on as early as possible (early enough to feel the shock, helplessness and confusion and on such a global scale, as strange and unpleasant as that might sound - I think that it must be a rare thing that we experienced).
I agree. Teacher's always talk about, and hope for, teachable moments. That day was definitely one, even if it was just watching the TV. It was a horribly good experience as we fielded are questions off our teacher ("Who did this . . . why'd they do it . . . etc.) even if the teacher's answer was "I don't know" 90% of the time, as it was. I still remember my second hour teacher's name, a civics teacher, so it was definitely apropos for that class.

The most poignant part was seeing the towers fall. It was like I could feel my whole self fall with them.

[JuniperWoolf]

The most poignant part was seeing the towers fall.

For me it was seeing the individual people jump out of the windows. It was hard not to think about how much desperation it must take to convince a person to jump out of a 90 story window. They must have been terrified.

[Lokasenna]

Hmm, I've been thinking about this for the last day or so and I think your teachers should have told you guys. 9/11 was a pretty signifigant part of our history (as humans, I mean). It was the largest mass-murder and the greatest attack ever organized and just think about the fallout. I often read about signifigant events in history textbooks and wonder what it would be like to observe the changes that take place completely raw and in their entirity. It's almost... dissapointing... that you weren't made aware of what was going on as early as possible (early enough to feel the shock, helplessness and confusion and on such a global scale, as strange and unpleasant as that might sound - I think that it must be a rare thing that we experienced).

True, but on the other hand I can see the counter-argument. They didn't want to interrupt a day of teaching with something unproductive. They didn't want anyone who might have American relatives going into a panic.

As I said, 10 years on I'm still not sure how I feel about that.

[Vonny]

Hmm, I've been thinking about this for the last day or so and I think your teachers should have told you guys. 9/11 was a pretty signifigant part of our history (as humans, I mean). It was the largest mass-murder and the greatest attack ever organized and just think about the fallout. I often read about signifigant events in history textbooks and wonder what it would be like to observe the changes that take place completely raw and in their entirity. It's almost... dissapointing... that you weren't made aware of what was going on as early as possible (early enough to feel the shock, helplessness and confusion and on such a global scale, as strange and unpleasant as that might sound - I think that it must be a rare thing that we experienced).

I think it was irresponsible of teachers who forced classrooms of children to witness this. When you have a group of children, they vary according to their ability to process something like that. In any group of children, there are always some who go home each day to shock, helplessness and confusion, and they don't need more.

To tell children that they have to watch and remember every detail because they have a responsibility to future generations is wrong. The first responsiblity is to the children in front of you.

[qimissung]

I think it depends on the age of the kids. Perhaps in elementary school it might have been appropriate for the teachers to tell them a terrible thing happened to some people who live far away and then what happened. Maybe wait until late in the day to tell them. It wouldn't be necessary to turn on the televison to make them aware.

[qimissung]

I heard it on the radio while on my way to work. The DJ didn't know exactly what had happened, just that it appeared that a plane had flown into one of the towers of the World Trade Center. I remember thinking "What?!" and feeling amazed, and doubtful. There was such a sense of unreality to it.

I got to work-I work at at high school-and did tardy duty in the cafeteria. The TV's were on and we knew something was happening, I guess at that point the second plane had flown into the second tower. I had first period off so I went to the library. At that time they had a huge TV there, and it was on, so I stood-and watched open-mouthed as the second tower fell. We talked about it all day long.

And then I went home and watched the news more than I have before or since, watched the pictures of the unbelievable massive destruction, the mountains, literally,of rubble, the stories that began to pour forth of how people lived or died or escaped or didn't, of thsoe who took hours to make it home, of the children whose parents never came for them, the mounting death toll, the pictures of the missing, the ravaged hope that the ones they loved were somehow still alive.

[Lulim]

I remember having been at work. A colleague came and showed me a video on the Internet -- this particular colleague always made jokes and funny antics and such like -- and I thought it was some fake video clip. It was only a little afterwards when my boss came along and commented about it very seriously that I realized that it was real.

And then, nobody seemed able to do much work, everywhere people talked about it. I went home early that day, and we watched the news. It was first day of school for my kids, after summer holidays, too, and they brought shopping lists. But nobody went shopping that day ...

[Vonny]

I think it depends on the age of the kids. Perhaps in elementary school it might have been appropriate for the teachers to tell them a terrible thing happened to some people who live far away and then what happened. Maybe wait until late in the day to tell them. It wouldn't be necessary to turn on the televison to make them aware.

Yes, it's not good to conceal, but some thought should be given to the way a message is delivered, when and how.

And I don't think that a captive audience of even adults should be forced or made to feel an obligation to watch something like that as it's unfolding. At the time people had no idea what would happen next, what they'd be witnessing. I think the teachers wanted to watch it themselves and that was why they automatically subjected the kids to it. I mean, it would've been difficult for them to just leave their classrooms to go watch it.

I watch many movies and documentaries that have a very difficult subject matter, but there's a difference when the subject is put into some kind of context and some perspective given on it. For instance, I watched Ken Burns Civil War series which describes the battles in explicit detail and shows the real pictures. It was disturbing but in a way a program like that is healing because it shows that unfairness and suffering is a part of life.

And I learned about the "Triangle Shirtwaist Fire of 1911," which was shown in Ken Burns New York documentary which to me was perhaps worse than 9/11, although fewer lives were lost. It upset me but it told the story of one woman who survived and went on to become an accountant and lived to be more than 100. So in a way, it was a good thing to learn about.

The whole reason for the event, (whoever perpetrated it) was to terrorize, and the media never delivers the actual events, there is always a spin. It's the way it's shown and the the way anchors talk, their voices, that bothers me.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

You can't, nor should you, shield kids from reality. I feel it's much more irresponsible to try and keep them isolated from actual, real-world events.

[Vonny]

You can't, nor should you, shield kids from reality. I feel it's much more irresponsible to try and keep them isolated from actual, real-world events.

Certainly when something major goes on in the world, everyone should know about it. And I don't think that a teenager should have been prevented from seeing it. (Although years ago news traveled slowly and life went on.)

But if there's a car crash on the road in front of your house and bodies parts and guts are scattered about there's no reason to make sure to take the kids out to see it. If there's a lesson in it, such as the driver was drinking and you want to teach a teenager not to drink and drive, well maybe.

I personally don't think I'd be any better off today if I had watched all the coverage of 9/11.

I love history, myself. It's nice when you can see a few survivors, and that the world carried on in some way. The "Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire of 1911" was an event that people learned from that brought positive changes in our country.

I'm troubled by the media. I heard that at the Olympics there was a luger killed, and they showed this guy flying into a pole and being killed, and they replayed it over and over and over. I think that's disrespectful and also makes viewers numb to a person losing his life. It bothered me more that the man was Russian, or something. Athletes from those countries are often desperately trying to escape their circumstances, and so they are different from our athletes who are seeking wealth and fame.

One thing I wish I could remove completely from my brain is all knowledge of Satanists and how they sacrifice infants and animals. Ignorance about that was bliss. I struggle some on Halloween now.

[Buh4Bee]

I was on the island teaching my third grade class. But I was way uptown in the 90s right across from Central Park. No one was killed in our school community. Amazing.

[stlukesguild]

I lived in New York City... or rather, Jersey City... just across the Hudson... but a few short years before 9/11. The towers were an everyday reality for me. They were a sort of compass as you traveled through Jersey or Manhattan... towering above everything else as a great beacon. My wife and I were dating at the time and we took any number of pictures of each other with the towers in the background...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6082/6142000991_30e878053e_z.jpg

We regularly walked through the World Trade Center after having taken the PATH train from Jersey under the Hudson into Manhattan. The scale of the buildings was immense and tens of not hundreds of thousands disembarked from the PATH into Lower Manhattan through WTC and up the stories high escalator every day. We often sat for lunch at Trinity Cathedral... one of the oldest churches in America (with tombstones dating to the 1600s)... in the shadow of the towers.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6151/6142021657_da35c94334.jpg

As the tragedy unfolded, we had friends in New York and New Jersey who we were unable to make contact with for days. Some in New Jersey had sat upon the roof of the building I had lived in not long before and watched as people jumped from the towers before they came crashing down covering the whole of the area in clouds of black smoke.

I had just begun teaching a few short years earlier in Cleveland, and was out of my school on a scheduled meeting with the whole of the arts faculty. As the meeting began, the news started to trickle in. Some teachers began to desperately attempt to call loved ones in NYC from their cell phones. Many were in tears. Flight 93 was still in the airspace over Northeast Ohio near Cleveland and the order went out to evacuate downtown and all office buildings. I was living in a studio-apartment downtown, but left the city for the suburbs until later in the afternoon. School was cancelled the next day, and I later found out that during the event students had been sent home under emergency evacuation conditions.

Just 2 short hours after the event gas stations were charging in excess of $5... $6... even $7 US per gallon at a time at which the going price was hovering around $2. The mayor sent out notice than any such price gouging would be treated as "war profiteering" and the proprietor would lose his or her licence to operate and be tried appropriately. Unfortunately, not all politicians were adverse to utilizing 9/11 for personal gain. I was absolutely sickened by the manner in which some wrapped themselves in the flag and used 9/11 as an excuse for all manner of things under the motto, "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists".

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Certainly when something major goes on in the world, everyone should know about it. And I don't think that a teenager should have been prevented from seeing it. (Although years ago news traveled slowly and life went on.)

But if there's a car crash on the road in front of your house and bodies parts and guts are scattered about there's no reason to make sure to take the kids out to see it. If there's a lesson in it, such as the driver was drinking and you want to teach a teenager not to drink and drive, well maybe.

I personally don't think I'd be any better off today if I had watched all the coverage of 9/11.

I love history, myself. It's nice when you can see a few survivors, and that the world carried on in some way. The "Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire of 1911" was an event that people learned from that brought positive changes in our country.

I'm troubled by the media. I heard that at the Olympics there was a luger killed, and they showed this guy flying into a pole and being killed, and they replayed it over and over and over. I think that's disrespectful and also makes viewers numb to a person losing his life. It bothered me more that the man was Russian, or something. Athletes from those countries are often desperately trying to escape their circumstances, and so they are different from our athletes who are seeking wealth and fame.

One thing I wish I could remove completely from my brain is all knowledge of Satanists and how they sacrifice infants and animals. Ignorance about that was bliss. I struggle some on Halloween now.
Well, never watch certain foreign news stations, like Al Jazeera, who aren't shy at all about showing war in all its glory. Those images can be quite disturbing.

I don't know about the Satanists thing. Most "Satanists" only label themselves that as a sign of rebellion, which is what most Satanists are all about. Think for yourself, question authority, all that jazz. Think Milton. Anyone who sacrifices babies is insane, period.

{edit}

On a lighter and completely different note . . . is that you StLukes? I must say you don't fit my mental image at all. I always envisioned a hippy-ish type with a pony-tail. Don't take offense--when I hear artist, that's what I see. Artists should probably be offended.

[stlukesguild]

On a lighter and completely different note . . . is that you StLukes? I must say you don't fit my mental image at all. I always envisioned a hippy-ish type with a pony-tail.

I'm too young for the hippy-era... although I went through my period of neatly coiffed long hair in the 80s...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6196/6142701660_6ff96229ce_b.jpg

and my hair was actually shoulder-length at the time of my high-school graduation. For much of my stay in art school I looked like Grizzly Adams with a hang-over. It finally dawned on me that this wasn't the greatest way to impress the girls (Alex has his points) and I began to "dress for success":lol:

Now I tend to fit in with the little ghetto urchins I teach:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6159/6142718646_7ee1c21c60_b.jpg:eek6:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Those pictures are absolutely epic. :nod:

When did you start getting into classical music? I only ask, because the top picture suggests more of an affinity for 70s rock (which is awesome).

[stlukesguild]

I started to explore all the arts with an absolute passion about the time of that photo (high school). I knew I would go on to do something in the arts... but wasn't certain if it would be in visual art, music, or literature... and so I decided to explore all of them as deeply as possible. I quickly eliminated music as a possibility (although I maintained a passion for it) for the simple reason that I had absolutely no talent for it whatsoever... in spite of having invested a small fortune on a white Fender Stratocaster.:nopity:

[OrphanPip]

I don't think people on forums ever look as one imagines them. What really can we tell about a person's appearance from the way they produce forum postings?

Edit: Except for me, I'm as ruggedly handsome as you all imagine.

[JuniperWoolf]

One thing I wish I could remove completely from my brain is all knowledge of Satanists and how they sacrifice infants and animals. Ignorance about that was bliss. I struggle some on Halloween now.

Someone told you that witches sacrifice babies on halloween?

[Scheherazade]

Now I tend to fit in with the little ghetto urchins I teach:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6159/6142718646_7ee1c21c60_b.jpg:eek6:Is that one of the "ghetto urchins" you teach next to you in the photo?

Someone told you that witches sacrifice babies on halloween?I thought it is a truth universally acknowledged that a witch seeks to sacrifice babies on Halloween...

:p

[JuniperWoolf]

I thought it is a truth universally acknowledged that a witch seeks to sacrifice babies on Halloween...

Not at all. Actually, witchcraft is a legally protected religion in most countries (including the US, the UK and Canada). It'd be hard to pull that one off if you sacrificed babies.

Although now that I read back I guess Vonny did say "satanists" and not "witches" (witches don't believe in the devil, as it is a Christian diety). Still, what are you referring to, Vonny? The only homicidal maniac calling himself a satanist that I can think of is Richard Ramirez, and I believe that he mostly targeted old ladies.

[Lokasenna]

Although now that I read back I guess Vonny did say "satanists" and not "witches" (witches don't believe in the devil, as it is a Christian diety). Still, what are you referring to, Vonny? The only homicidal maniac calling himself a satanist that I can think of is Richard Ramirez, and I believe that he mostly targeted old ladies.

Though, of course, according to Christian doctrine witches do worship the devil, and he is the source of their power. As the medieval theologians would say, there are only two sources for supernatural interference in the natural world: God and Old Nick. As only saints are enfused with some measure of the divine power of God, anyone else who manifests supernatural power must, by logical deduction, have it from the other fellow.

That said, I know several witches, and they're very nice indeed. I'm more inclined to trust them than the theologians. Also, they're rather fond of babies in the cooing and playing sense.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I've also known a few self-proclaimed witches (I don't know what makes one a witch, other than carrying around crystals and liking wacky symbols; they said they were witches, so I took their word for it), my best friend among them for a time (we're an odd pair). They're pretty nice, if not somewhat, or extremely, eccentric. My best friend sure as hell is.

[Vonny]

I think Wicca is a New Age feminist fad. With Satanists I think in terms of men. There are women Satanists, but I think they are under the influence of men. Not many women have a tendency to deliberately, physically, sacrifice a baby. Many women are very adept, and have a strong tendency toward, psychological cruelty. If you think in terms of true witchcraft, I think the definition is manipulation, and there are many women who practice this, far more than men, although they don't call it witchcraft. Lokasenna wrote his thesis on this, although it isn't necessarily women who are beautiful on the outside, they have diverse appearances, and they go after other women or little girls as much as they do men. But I think witches like in The Wizard of Oz are cute.

In history it was women who were different in some way who were accused of being witches. If I had lived a couple of hundred years ago the women I work with would've tried to have me burned at the stake. They wouldn't do it as a sacrifice of me, they would say I deserved it.

Satanists know how to avoid the spotlight. They have no interest in going to prison. They probably don't sacrifice as many humans as they'd like, but they perform rituals and sacrifice black cats. Our local Humane Society does not permit the adoption of black cats in the month or weeks (I'm not sure the actual time span) preceding Halloween. They advise people to keep their black cats safe from being stolen around Halloween.

I've always enjoyed the idea of Halloween, although I didn't celebrate it much as a kid. I find the Celtic historical and legendary roots of it very fascinating, the little that I know about it, and even if there were sacrifices, it doesn't trouble me so much if it happened long ago. I don't think the roots of Halloween are Satanic, merely pagan, and if they made sacrifices they thought they were doing it for some worthwhile purpose, not as a worship of Satan.

[JBI]

Well, for the one 10 years ago, I was in class, the weekend right before my brother's Bar Mitzvah, so a lot of my relatives showed up early as they had been headed toward New York and redirected. As for the catastrophe that ousted the democratically elected government in Chile, I was not yet born.

By the way you shouldn't say "in America" it isn't a country. You mean in the United States, if you want an abridgment. There are numerous other countries throughout the continents known as the Americas.

[stlukesguild]

By the way you shouldn't say "in America" it isn't a country. You mean in the United States, if you want an abridgment. There are numerous other countries throughout the continents known as the Americas.

More of JBI's usual anti-Americanism. When people around the world speak of "America" and "Americans" we know exactly who they are referring to... and it ain't Canada or Mexico or citizens of Chile. The United States of America is the only nation with the term "America" in its official name. The official demonym for residents of the USA isn't "USAers" it is "Americans". America has been an abridgment for the USA since virtually the founding of the nation. Most people are intelligent enough to employ the terms "the Americas", "North America" and "South America" when referring to the continents as opposed to the USA. Not once have I come across JCamillo or any other South Americans bemoaning the fact that Whitman, Dickenson, and T.S. Eliot are thought of as American writers.Ther is probably therapy available to address your fixation upon the USA and your likely inferiority complex.;)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Mexico, Mexicans. Canada, Canadians. United States of America, Americans. Somewhat of a disconnect, yes, but it's just the way it is. Methinks JBI just wishes Canadian's claimed the moniker "American" first. :D

I think Wicca is a New Age feminist fad. With Satanists I think in terms of men. There are women Satanists, but I think they are under the influence of men. Not many women have a tendency to deliberately, physically, sacrifice a baby. Many women are very adept, and have a strong tendency toward, psychological cruelty. If you think in terms of true witchcraft, I think the definition is manipulation, and there are many women who practice this, far more than men, although they don't call it witchcraft. Lokasenna wrote his thesis on this, although it isn't necessarily women who are beautiful on the outside, they have diverse appearances, and they go after other women or little girls as much as they do men. But I think witches like in The Wizard of Oz are cute.

In history it was women who were different in some way who were accused of being witches. If I had lived a couple of hundred years ago the women I work with would've tried to have me burned at the stake. They wouldn't do it as a sacrifice of me, they would say I deserved it.

Satanists know how to avoid the spotlight. They have no interest in going to prison. They probably don't sacrifice as many humans as they'd like, but they perform rituals and sacrifice black cats. Our local Humane Society does not permit the adoption of black cats in the month or weeks (I'm not sure the actual time span) preceding Halloween. They advise people to keep their black cats safe from being stolen around Halloween.

That's quite a lot of claims and accusations. I can't EVER recollect hearing about "Satanists" being sacrificed, nor can I ever recall hearing about a baby being sacrificed at all, much less by Satanists. Do you have any sources, articles, to back up these claims? The only thing I can think of pertaining to Satanists committing crimes of this nature is the case of the West Memphis Three, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three) which is highly suspect.

[Vonny]

No Mutatis, I have nothing to support this, other than the Humane Society's warning to watch out for your black cat. I'm not going to research it. It's another of those things I try not to think about. It would sure be nice if it weren't true.

[Hurricane]

By the way you shouldn't say "in America" it isn't a country. You mean in the United States, if you want an abridgment. There are numerous other countries throughout the continents known as the Americas.

Come on. We all know that the United States is the real America.
:chillpill:

On a slightly more serious note, citizens of the United States are known as "Americans," so it's really not that much of a stretch to go to referring to the US as "America." Unless you want to be called an American too? I don't know if we'll let you into our exclusive club.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

No Mutatis, I have nothing to support this, other than the Humane Society's warning to watch out for your black cat. I'm not going to research it. It's another of those things I try not to think about. It would sure be nice if it weren't true.
Okay. Still, a quick Google search of "satanists sacrifice baby" yielded nothing of substance. Don't believe everything you hear, is all I'm saying.

[Vonny]

Okay Mutatis, but if I get a black cat I will be careful with it.

Hurricane, we are no more Americans than people in Peru. We should be called Statesians or something, and then other countries wouldn't call us smug and snarky.

[papayahed]

Would a rose smell as sweet by any other name?

[stlukesguild]

Hurricane, we are no more Americans than people in Peru. We should be called Statesians or something, and then other countries wouldn't call us smug and snarky.

Vonny... have you actually ever heard any South Americans complaining about our being called Americans? JCamillo, the Brazilian Member who is a regular here refers to us as Americans. Statesians? First that sounds absolutely horrible... secondly it ignores the numerous other countries that have the term "states" in their name, such as our neighbor to the immediate South, The United Mexican States... commonly known as Mexico.

[Vonny]

Unless you want to be called an American too? I don't know if we'll let you into our exclusive club.

Last night I watched a documentary, In the Shadow of the Moon, about the first moon landing, and Michael Collins said this:

"After the flight of Apollo 11, the three of us went on an around the world trip. Wherever we went, people instead of saying, 'Well, you Americans did it,' Everywere, they said, 'We did it. We humankind, we the human race, we people did it,' And I had never heard of people in different countries use this word 'We, we, we' as emphatically as we were hearing from Europeans, Asians, Africans... Wherever we went, it was, 'We finally did it.' And I thought that was a wonderful thing. Ephemeral, but wonderful."

Edit: Luke, I didn't see you there before I posted this. That wasn't really my point.

[billl]

I have always tried to use the word "estadounidense" ("United Statesian", that is) instead of "americano" when I speak Spanish. I rarely (once or twice a year) converse in Spanish now, and my vocabulary is shot, but I used to do it more often, and was at least verging on fluency once I got going. Anyhow, I don't think I ever heard any native speakers use the word "estadounidense" in conversation. I think things might be different in the University, or in some professional settings (Spanish Wikipedia, and a couple of online newspapers I just checked, are using "estadounidense"...), but I have heard the word "americano" used to refer to U.S. citizens and so on (except maybe on TV?).

Maybe someone else here can provide more insight, but I think one problem might simply be that "estadounidense" has an extra two syllables... (In fact, I just noticed a variant I had never seen before, which has notably eliminated one of the two extra syllables: "estadunidense"). Another factor might be that I've only used Spanish in the U.S., and maybe "americano" is something that people use more often once they are here. But anyhow, I've conversed with Spanish-speakers from countries throughout the Western Hemisphere, and I occasionally have gotten something like a little smile when I say "estadounidense". Maybe it's gotten to the point where they can see some kind of uncertainty in my eyes or something... :) I'm still going to use it, though.

(Actually, one term I sometimes hear is "gringo", and it certainly isn't necessarily intended to offend--although I've seen people suddenly avoid it when talking to me, I guess because it can be used negatively and better safe than sorry.)

EDIT: Something I just learned about "estadounidense". It is technically fine to use it on Mexicans, as well, because the official name of that country is The United Mexican States. Huh.

[OrphanPip]

I actually have had arguments with South Americans over the notion of a panamerican identity. Personally, I don't want to be associated with it anyway. Plus, Canada as a place name and national identity predates the formation of the United States, since it was the name of the French colony that is now Quebec.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

It's not solely the fault of Americans that we are called Americans. We aren't, after all, the only nation to refer to us as Americans. Last time I checked, the whole world did.

[OrphanPip]

It's not solely the fault of Americans that we are called Americans. We aren't, after all, the only nation to refer to us as Americans. Last time I checked, the whole world did.

Yes it is, you chose the name lol.

[billl]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we started it, and I'm all for fixing it if people really are interested, but the situation is kind of a mess and will probably remain so for a while.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I never said we didn't choose to call ourselves Americans--though, how does one know this, and how is it provable? I said it wasn't solely the fault of Americans. After all, if the world was so annoyed by it, they could call us something else. Hell, we surely started referring to ourselves as Americans long before The United States of America was formed, so if it did come down to a case of us being to blame for our moniker because we chose it, it would be the British's fault, wouldn't it?

Still, "Americans" seems completely appropriate. Canada and Mexico have a base to work off of for their self-identifications--we don't. We're The United States of America. As has been pointed out, statesians would make even less sense, since there are far more nation states on the whole than just within the American continents.

[stlukesguild]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we started it, and I'm all for fixing it if people really are interested, but the situation is kind of a mess

There is nothing that needs fixing.

[Vonny]

I think our country, in being called America, indicates its intention to dominate. I wonder if it was planned from the beginning, to be named United States of America and then call us America.

The term "Americans" should refer to the indigenous people of these continents. But we decided to call them Indians and thereby make them foreigners in their own land.

Instead of Americans maybe we should be called Timbuktuians.

(There's something about Luke that brings out the bratty little sister in me! :lol:)

[JuniperWoolf]

I think Wicca is a New Age feminist fad.

You were the first person to mention watered-down wicca. I was talking about witchcraft, which has many branches within every culture ever known and predates wicca by a few thousand years. It has a lot more punch. If you called Aleister Crowly a feminist, he'd probably die all over again (after trying to have sex with you, of course - it was kind of his thing). There's a lot about the history of ritualistic magic and how it was adapted for a Christian society that most people are completely unaware of, which is a shame because it's unbelievably cool. Especially African slave magic, hoodoo and the like - that's my favorite after the Golden Dawn kabbalistic stuff.

[Vonny]

I know all about witchcraft after a lifetime with my mom. She's also not a feminist. But after being on the receiving end of it, I don't care to engage in witchcraft myself.

[JuniperWoolf]

Personally, I don't want to be associated with it anyway. Plus, Canada as a place name and national identity predates the formation of the United States, since it was the name of the French colony that is now Quebec.

Yeah, most Canadians would be angry if they were to visit Europe or something and the people called us "American." We don't want the association, so I don't know what JBI's on about.


I know all about witchcraft after a lifetime with my mom. She's also not a feminist.

Is she the one who convinced you that there are people out there who worship satan, sacrifice babies and are trying to steal your cat?

[mortalterror]

There is nothing that needs fixing.

Don't be so quick to dismiss people's feelings, Luke. JBI brings up a valid point. All this time, we've callously made the mistake of calling him a Canadian when he shares the same terra firma, breathes the same air as ourselves. Well, no more. Going forward, from this day forth, JBI is as American as you or me, and I'm not going to call him anything else. Calling him a Canadian now would just be an insult.

As an honorary American you are now officially $47,000 in debt, bad at math, and the target of terrorists who hate you. Don't be afraid. That feeling that's overwelming you right now is just freedom. You'll get used to that.

[JuniperWoolf]

Don't be so quick to dismiss people's feelings, Luke. JBI brings up a valid point. All this time, we've callously made the mistake of calling him a Canadian when he shares the same terra firma, breathes the same air as ourselves. Well, no more. Going forward, from this day forth, JBI is as American as you or me, and I'm not going to call him anything else. Calling him a Canadian now would just be an insult.

:smilielol5: Perfect.

[Lulim]

Hereabouts, we say "US-Americans", "Canadians", "Brazilians", "Mexicans" and so on.

[Vonny]

Is she the one who convinced you that there are people out there who worship satan, sacrifice babies and are trying to steal your cat?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15459377/ns/health-pet_health/t/idaho-animal-shelter-halts-black-cat-adoptions/


Here is an article about the cats in my state.

Black cat and white bunny adoptions are halted before Halloween. I'm sure there are Satanists who sacrifice animals. Of the people I know, no one disputes it.

Why don't we drop this now.

[B. Laumness]

I was twenty years, far from home, in the South of France, at the harvest of the grapes. At the end of the labor, the proprietor came to us and said the US had been attacked, that a part of New York had been destroyed, and that there could be millions of victims. “Attacked by who? – We are not sure. Probably the Arabs.” It was unbelievable. I was shocked, horrified. We said it was the beginning of WW3. Then I called my parents, who explained to me the situation, the crash of the planes, the apocalyptic atmosphere in New York. After the dinner, I asked the proprietor to buy the newspapers (he had the TV but we were not allowed to watch it), and, the following days, I could follow the events. Then the life went on… At least the other guys and girls did not talk much about it. Ten days later, back to home, I could eventually see the images at the television.

Sunday, I heard Kevin Cosgrove’s last call. It made me cry. During the night I dreamed of accidents and big holes. Monday, I woke up with his final scream in my ears.

[Vonny]

I just went to youtube and listened to Kevin Cosgrove.........

[JuniperWoolf]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15459377/ns/health-pet_health/t/idaho-animal-shelter-halts-black-cat-adoptions/


Here is an article about the cats in my state.

Black cat and white bunny adoptions are halted before Halloween.

This article is pointing out the foolishness of the shelter's reaction to an urban legend for which there is no proof and which hurts animals by inhibiting their adoption. That you put so much thought into it and ran away with the idea to suppose that satanists sacrifice children is quite a stretch to say the least, but you did say that this article was your only proof of such practices earlier in this thread and that the idea is something that disturbs you often. Really, talk about unnecessary stress.


I'm sure there are Satanists who sacrifice animals. Of the people I know, no one disputes it.

The strange thing is that you discuss it at all, but whatever. For the record, I wouldn't put too much thought into the shadowy practices of unknown people without any proof whatsoever, you know what they say about assumption.


Why don't we drop this now.

Consider it dropped.

[Vonny]

This article is pointing out the foolishness of the shelter's reaction to an urban legend for which there is no proof and which hurts animals by inhibiting their adoption. That you put so much thought into it and ran away with the idea to suppose that satanists sacrifice children is quite a stretch to say the least, but you did say that this article was your only proof of such practices earlier in this thread and that the idea is something that disturbs you often. Really, talk about unnecessary stress.


The strange thing is that you discuss it at all, but whatever. For the record, I wouldn't put too much thought into the shadowy practices of unknown people without any proof whatsoever, you know what they say about assumption.








Consider it dropped.




That's not what the article said. Some animal activists think that halting adoptions further adds to the stigma of black cats who already have more trouble finding homes than other cats do, and that if proper screenings of potential adopters are done, the cats can still be safely adopted.

[OrphanPip]

The article does say that it is urban legend though. The primary risk to them isn't really "satanic rituals" but punk teenagers using them for pranks. Working in the veterinary field and in animal shelters, I've seen loads of animals abused and mistreated, but none of them by a Satanist. Actually, the cruellest abuses I've seen have been perpetrated by children, from stomping on kittens' heads, deliberately, to breaking a rabbit's back by throwing it against a wall (they also spray painted the animal).

[cl154576]

It's not solely the fault of Americans that we are called Americans. We aren't, after all, the only nation to refer to us as Americans. Last time I checked, the whole world did.

Not really, some languages invent new names for us. In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not personalise your comments.

If you are not ready to accept the fact that your opinions might be questioned by the others,

please refrain from posting in public forums.

Posts containing such remarks and off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

~

[Vonny]

The article does say that it is urban legend though. The primary risk to them isn't really "satanic rituals" but punk teenagers using them for pranks. Working in the veterinary field and in animal shelters, I've seen loads of animals abused and mistreated, but none of them by a Satanist. Actually, the cruellest abuses I've seen have been perpetrated by children, from stomping on kittens' heads, deliberately, to breaking a rabbit's back by throwing it against a wall (they also spray painted the animal).

Since the subject continues, yeah, I'm sure this is true about children. I'm sure this is by far the greatest threat. I was so completely opposite as a child that it's hard to imagine, but I've known those kinds of kids. If there are no Satanists out there, I'm really glad.

It's really time to get back into books!

[stlukesguild]

I think our country, in being called America, indicates its intention to dominate. I wonder if it was planned from the beginning, to be named United States of America and then call us America.

The term "America" was employed by the German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller in Saint-Dié-des-Vosges in France in a map intended to show the divide between the "Americas" and Asia. The term was a Latinized variation upon the name of the Florentine explorer, Amerigo Vespucci'. It certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with the terms used by the natives of the North or South American continents prior to their discovery by the Europeans.

The term "Americans" should refer to the indigenous people of these continents. But we decided to call them Indians and thereby make them foreigners in their own land.

It would seem to me that whether we employed the term "Indian" or "American" we are attaching a European name to the people living in the Americas that has nothing to do with what they call themselves. Of course the whole argument is but another example of politically correct thought taken to the usual level of absurdity. No one complains that the French refer to Deutschland as "Allemagne" and the English-speaking world calls it "Germany". I haven't heard anyone complaining when someone uses the term "Florence" as opposed to "Firenze". The whole issue is simply one more means of criticizing the United States of America over essentially nothing.

Indigenous People? What indigenous people? The people who were living in the Americas at the time of the arrival of the Europeans were decedents of people who arrived long before from Asia and perhaps elsewhere as well. One might do well to recognize that the majority of Europe was equally conquered and settled by latter arrivals: Greeks, Romans, Huns, Magyars, Franks, etc...

Instead of Americans maybe we should be called Timbuktuians.

Although Mali might have something to say about that.

[MarkBastable]

I think our country, in being called America, indicates its intention to dominate. I wonder if it was planned from the beginning, to be named United States of America and then call us America.

The term "Americans" should refer to the indigenous people of these continents. But we decided to call them Indians and thereby make them foreigners in their own land.

Instead of Americans maybe we should be called Timbuktuians.

(There's something about Luke that brings out the bratty little sister in me! :lol:)


....blimey.

A friend of mine had an essay returned to him at university, in the margin of which his professor had written, "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."

[stlukesguild]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.:lol:

[cl154576]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.:lol:

I suppose I should clarify, before someone attacks me on this. In Chinese they call the US 美国 (mei-guo). The "mei," or beautiful, is shortened from 亚美利加 (ya-mei-li-jia), which is transliterated from "America" (I've never heard anyone use this expanded form in conversation, however); the "guo" means country.

There are countless character representations for "mei" but they chose the one that means "beautiful." Of course, it could be coincidental, or influenced by complex linguistic factors I do not know about.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.:lol:
Or East St. Louis, the little gem I live next to.

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.


I was twenty years, far from home, in the South of France, at the harvest of the grapes. At the end of the labor, the proprietor came to us and said the US had been attacked, that a part of New York had been destroyed, and that there could be millions of victims. “Attacked by who? – We are not sure. Probably the Arabs.” It was unbelievable. I was shocked, horrified. We said it was the beginning of WW3. Then I called my parents, who explained to me the situation, the crash of the planes, the apocalyptic atmosphere in New York. After the dinner, I asked the proprietor to buy the newspapers (he had the TV but we were not allowed to watch it), and, the following days, I could follow the events. Then the life went on… At least the other guys and girls did not talk much about it. Ten days later, back to home, I could eventually see the images at the television.

Sunday, I heard Kevin Cosgrove’s last call. It made me cry. During the night I dreamed of accidents and big holes. Monday, I woke up with his final scream in my ears.
Odd that you heard such an exaggerated number. Was there a sense of relief when you found out it wasn't nearly so bad, or even that strangely human disappointment when expected carnage isn't what it was thought to be?

[papayahed]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.:lol:


HEY!!!! I'm sitting right here.

[stlukesguild]

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

I agree that using the term "Indian" to denote "Native Americans" is problematic. It even leads to confusion when doing searches on Google for "Indian Art" as in the art of India as opposed to the art of Native Americans. Of course I don't know if the term is much more offensive toward the Native Americans than the native term many tribes used to define themselves: "human being"... inferring that all others... even other Native American tribes were not human beings. Rather like the Hebrew notion of being God's "chosen people". But if we ever do get around to changing things, what are we to do here in Cleveland with our ever beloved and beleaguered Cleveland Indians? I suppose we could just change Chief Wahoo into some blue Hindu god...:shocked::sosp::arf:

[cl154576]

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

In my school we call them Native Americans or American Indians, interchangeably, although the first is more popular (one less syllable ...)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

I agree that using the term "Indian" to denote "Native Americans" is problematic. It even leads to confusion when doing searches on Google for "Indian Art" as in the art of India as opposed to the art of Native Americans. Of course I don't know if the term is much more offensive toward the Native Americans than the native term many tribes used to define themselves: "human being"... inferring that all others... even other Native American tribes were not human beings. Rather like the Hebrew notion of being God's "chosen people". But if we ever do get around to changing things, what are we to do here in Cleveland with our ever beloved and beleaguered Cleveland Indians? I suppose we could just change Chief Wahoo into some blue Hindu god...:shocked::sosp::arf:
I don't know how teams get away with team names and mascots like that, especially the Redskins. I don't find it offensive, just pretty damn insensitive.

In my school we call them Native Americans or American Indians, interchangeably, although the first is more popular (one less syllable ...)
:lol: Students do take any shortcut they can.

[Shalot]

So, this thread went off on another topic sort of and I don't really have anything to contribute to it. I'm still stuck on 09/11 and it's Thursday now, so the 10 year mark has come and gone. But I'm always late.

I was living with my mom and dad at the time, and I was sleeping when all of it started. My first class didn't start until noon so I wasn't getting up if I didn't have to.

My mother called and it was the phone that woke me up. She works for a government agency and they had been ordered to evacuate when the pentagon was hit so she called and said "What's going on?" and I had no clue what she was talking about. Then I turned on the news and watched it until my class started. The campus was pretty much empty that day but I went to class and all 5 of us sat around and talked, had a bit of lecture and went hom. That night I attended a prayer service.

This past Sunday, I watched the old news coverage with Katie Couric. I do remember some news coverage shown the day it happend of a reporter in New York and pieces paper from the offices in the towers were blowing all around her - 8 X 10 white and yellow paper you'd see in any office and she grabbed a piece of paper and put it in front of the camera - I guess maybe as a memento. It was some kind of flyer it seemed like with big type and then my dad said that they needed to cut to another reporter. And they did. I couldn't even tell what it said.

So I was on youtube trying to find old news coverage of the event. I was wondering if I could find a clip of that reporter in New York with the papers blowing around her but I got sidetracked with Kevin Cosgrove. He called 911 from the South tower. I hadn't heard that phone call until Sunday. It was very sad.

[OrphanPip]

Indian, in Canada at least, is considered almost as bad as the N word in some parts. Native issues are more prominent here, probably because aboriginal Canadians remain a significant minority population, and the majority in many parts of the country. It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree. The PC term the government uses is First Nations, although that term usually does not cover the Inuit or the Metis, which is a cultural group in Western Canada that arose from French settlers intermarrying with natives after being cut off from the French Empire by the surrender of Quebec.

Edit: We also never quite had a history of glorifying the wars against the natives, largely because of how politically unpopular the expansion westward was perceived by Quebec, who were highly sympathetic towards Metis resistance, as they were fellow Catholics and Francophones.

[stlukesguild]

It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree.

That is probably the best when one considers that the various tribes were no less individual nations with their own language and traditions than the whole of Europe. Of course the challenge is to recognize the Sioux from the Blackfoot from the Cuyahoga from the Comanche, etc...

[MarkBastable]

I was at home in London, working. Our wedding had been two weeks earlier, and my American wife's relatives had gone back to the East Coast only a few days before.

My wife took a call from her sister (also living in London), telling her to turn on the TV. I went to watch too and - like the rest of the world - saw the second plane crash into the towers. We spent the rest of the day watching the coverage.

Anne had left the US in January that year - and until then she'd been a Fox News anchor. Watching the coverage, she felt that she ought to be there, working, doing something. I think she felt disloyal or cowardly because she was safe and happy in London. (Though a few months later we were to discover that London wasn't safe either.)

Some images from that day are still hugely evocative. They stimulate an inescapable involuntary response.

I work in the Docklands district of London, in the shadow of these buildings.

http://www.photoconnect.net/imgUpload2/scottyh/soloSubmit/_2007-03-02-097.jpg

London City Airport lies three or four miles to the east, and the planes' flight path goes right over the top of these skyscrapers - dozens every day. Even now, ten years later, my stomach lurches when I glance up and see this...

http://www.photoconnect.net/imgUpload2/scottyh/soloSubmit/_2007-03-02-051.jpg

[JuniperWoolf]

Indian, in Canada at least, is considered almost as bad as the N word in some parts..


It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree.

My area is about 30% native, and if you call any native an "Indian," you're in big trouble. You're supposed to call them either "natives" or "Cree" here, because that's the tribe that the vast majority our natives have descended from.

In fact, I happen to be native on my mother's side, and I get called "Cree" even though my people are from the Inuit tribes in the east. :rolleyes5: Then again, my family is the only non-Cree native descendants in the area so I can't fault them for the assumption.

Other than the social awkwardness that would ensue, there's one other reason to avoid using the word "Indian" - it's a four hundred year old error that makes our European ancestors and us look like morons for not correcting.


...until then she'd been a Fox News anchor.

No way! Really?

[B. Laumness]

Odd that you heard such an exaggerated number. Was there a sense of relief when you found out it wasn't nearly so bad, or even that strangely human disappointment when expected carnage isn't what it was thought to be?

Neither one nor the other. When I heard that rumour, I had mixed feelings. I was incredulous, I said: "It's not possible, I can't believe it!" And meanwhile I could not ignore it, I could not help feeling an unknown horror. When I had correct informations, maybe an hour later, I thought it was an idiocy and a shame to have spread such a rumour. And meanwhile that horror became true, I could visualize or imagine the scene (since I had not the TV), I was really horrified. Several days later, when I finally watched the TV, it was worse than I could imagine.

[qimissung]

I'm part Indian-and I usually just use the word Indian when I tell someone, although I realize it is not accurate. Native American is better, I just rarely think to use it and no one has ever been offended. It doesn't come up very much, in any event.

I am one-fourth Cherokee, and when I was in college I had a friend who was Creek. He used to call me an apple, because I was red on the outside and white on the inside, and it's true, that my siblings and I were not raised as a part of the Cherokee culture at all. Most people who are Cherokee in Oklahoma live in Tahlequah.

I know that's off topic, and I apologize. The various stories of where people were and the peek at their lives is quite fascinating, along with the undercurrent of sorrow.

[MarkBastable]

.
No way! Really?


Yeah. And a morning radio jock too. In Columbia, SC.

[OrphanPip]

I'm 1/8 native, Mikmaq from Nova Scotia to be specific, but I don't show it, it has been thoroughly diluted by Irish, Scott, and English.

I think the use of Indian is more controversial in Canada because of different dynamics of racial relationships. For many Natives in Canada it evokes the memory of when the Department of Indian Affairs' sole purpose was the forceful assimilation of Natives into mainstream Anglo-Canadian culture. It evokes the government proclamations of this kind:

"I want to get rid of the Indian problem. I do not think as a matter of fact, that the country ought to continuously protect a class of people who are able to stand alone… Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question, and no Indian Department, that is the whole object of this Bill."
- D.C. Scott head of Indian Affairs, 1920

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Indian, in Canada at least, is considered almost as bad as the N word in some parts. Native issues are more prominent here, probably because aboriginal Canadians remain a significant minority population, and the majority in many parts of the country. It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree. The PC term the government uses is First Nations, although that term usually does not cover the Inuit or the Metis, which is a cultural group in Western Canada that arose from French settlers intermarrying with natives after being cut off from the French Empire by the surrender of Quebec.

Edit: We also never quite had a history of glorifying the wars against the natives, largely because of how politically unpopular the expansion westward was perceived by Quebec, who were highly sympathetic towards Metis resistance, as they were fellow Catholics and Francophones.
Interesting how much of a bad word is in Canada. I don't think most Native Americans really care if you call them Indian, though I suspect most would probably prefer Native American.

As for glorifying wars against Native Americans, I think we, as in America, have pretty much stopped that (I think it ended in the 70s), and now realize there's really nothing to glorify about it. If anything, portrayals of Native Americans being the good guys and settlers the bad guys is the predominant portrayal.


Other than the social awkwardness that would ensue, there's one other reason to avoid using the word "Indian" - it's a four hundred year old error that makes our European ancestors and us look like morons for not correcting.
Exactly.

Neither one nor the other. When I heard that rumour, I had mixed feelings. I was incredulous, I said: "It's not possible, I can't believe it!" And meanwhile I could not ignore it, I could not help feeling an unknown horror. When I had correct informations, maybe an hour later, I thought it was an idiocy and a shame to have spread such a rumour. And meanwhile that horror became true, I could visualize or imagine the scene (since I had not the TV), I was really horrified. Several days later, when I finally watched the TV, it was worse than I could imagine.
Interesting. I think most everyone had that "worse than I could imagine" reaction. I, and nearly everyone I talk to, upon hearing a plane ran into one of the twin towers just assumed it was a small two person plane, not a jet-liner.

Yeah. And a morning radio jock too. In Columbia, SC.
Are you talking about being the anchor of a local, Fox affiliated news program, or was she an anchor for the Fox News station (which is what I suspect some are assuming). It seems like the latter would make for an odd pairing between you and her, though I've heard opposites attract.

[MarkBastable]

Are you talking about being the anchor of a local, Fox affiliated news program, or was she an anchor for the Fox News station (which is what I suspect some are assuming). It seems like the latter would make for an odd pairing between you and her, though I've heard opposites attract.

No, it was the proper Fox thing. Why would it be an odd pairing?

[JuniperWoolf]

Interesting how much of a bad word is in Canada. I don't think most Native Americans really care if you call them Indian, though I suspect most would probably prefer Native American.

Yeah, the fact that you guys have been using the formal "Native Americans" in this thread is definately a testiment to your unfamiliarity with the term. We just say the shortened version, "natives," in Canada, because they're a minority that we encounter daily (much more often than black people in my area, and I've never even met an hispanic person) and because the "First Nations" issue is always a big one in Canadian politics.

Native culture is such a hot button issue here, not so much because they're our most predominant minority, but because of the harsh attempts at assimilation. Not long ago they used to literally try to beat the culture out of people. My mother and the other native kids used to get hit with meter sticks in school, and it was against the rules for the teachers to hit the white kids. This was in the eighties. The middle aged people that I know are so racist against natives it's unbelievable. They see them as "stealing their tax dollars to get drunk," and my dad once had to get into a wrestling match with one of his friends who was trying to bash a native's head in with a pool cue. Native women in Canada have among the highest rate of suicide in the world, and alchoholism is through the roof.

As a result, we now learn about native culture as early as possible (in the first few years of grade school, while learning about early Canadian history), we have numerous "culture" days in which native dancers preform for the students and cook us bannock and stuff, we learn Cree and how to make dream catchers and medicine wheels, ect. The people born since the 80's in our area aren't nearly as racist as the adults and the natives born since that time have an exponentially higher probability of going to college and staying away from alchoholism and suicide. All it takes to overcome racial violence and hatred is a little education.


As for glorifying wars against Native Americans, I think we, as in America, have pretty much stopped that (I think it ended in the 70s), and now realize there's really nothing to glorify about it.

I don't know, I've heard this sentence fairly often: "we saved your *** in WWII, Frenchie!" Plus I think you guys still do the pantomime civil war thing.


No, it was the proper Fox thing. Why would it be an odd pairing?

Well, this is just a guess, but I think that Mutatis finds it an odd pairing because you would appear to be an atheist liberal and most "proper" Fox anchors seem to be right wing evangelists.

[stlukesguild]

I don't know, I've heard this sentence fairly often: "we saved your *** in WWII, Frenchie!" Plus I think you guys still do the pantomime civil war thing.

What do either of those have to do with glorifying the wars against the Native Americans?

[JuniperWoolf]

...Oh, okay, when Mutatis said:


As for glorifying wars against Native Americans, I think we, as in America, have pretty much stopped that (I think it ended in the 70s), and now realize there's really nothing to glorify about it.

I assumed that "it" was war in general, but now that I read the next sentence in his paragraph more closely I can tell that he was just talking about European settlement (my bad).

[MarkBastable]

Well, this is just a guess, but I think that Mutatis finds it an odd pairing because you would appear to be an atheist liberal and most "proper" Fox anchors seem to be right wing evangelists.

Oh, I see.

Apparently Fox don't ask you about your political and religious persuasions when you apply. Good utilitarian free market capitalists that they are, they just want to be certain that you can do the job and look good doing it (in that order, I'm assured).

Similarly, when my brother (who's about as gently and unconfrontationally liberal as you can get) was writing for The Times, I asked him whether he had a problem working for Murdoch, and he said, "They publish whatever I write. Where's the problem?"

And, anyway, liberalism is contextual. Given her sociopolitical outlook, Anne says that at work, and in the US generally, she was considered pretty much a liberal pinko commie pantywaist, and then she came to Northern Europe and realised that that same outlook flagged her as a reactionary jackbooted neo-fascist.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I assumed that "it" was war in general, but now that I read the next sentence in his paragraph more closely I can tell that he was just talking about European settlement (my bad).
Oh, no. We glorify war in general to no end--civil war, WWI and WWII, the Revolution, whatever. I think most realize the extreme error of our ways when it came to the treatment of Native Americans, though.

[papayahed]

Do other countries do war reenactments?

[OrphanPip]

Do other countries do war reenactments?

The descendants of UELs in Ontario like to re-enact the Battle of Lundy's Lane from the War of 1812, but that's about the only one in the country I can think of. United Empire Loyalist are a weird lot though, they did emigrate here from the US, hmm.

A historical society wanted to re-enact the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, which was when Quebec fell to the British, but this caused a major huff, and they cancelled it out of fear of protesters.

[MarkBastable]

We have a least a couple of battle re-enactment societies. They tend to concentrate on the English Civil War. It's not that controversial because it's difficult to map the sides on to modern factions - so it wasn't, for instance, really a North vs South thing.

[billl]

We have a least a couple of battle re-enactment societies. They tend to concentrate on the English Civil War. It's not that controversial because it's difficult to map the sides on to modern factions - so it wasn't, for instance, really a North vs South thing.

This might not be something you meant to refer to but, interestingly, the Civil War re-enactors in the U.S. don't really attract any controversy. The "angle" is mostly about historic authenticity, military history, and the drama: the soldiers, the dying, the tragedy, the heroics. I guess "cos-play" sort of (role-playing) too. Some guys would have uniforms from both sides, probably. It's more geeky than anything, and I've never ever heard of a protest.

Plenty of controversy about Confederate flag license plates, etc. though.

[JuniperWoolf]

This might not be something you meant to refer to but, interestingly, the Civil War re-enactors in the U.S. don't really attract any controversy.

I didn't know that. I would have thought that the slave descendants would take issue.

Alberta is the most conservative Canadian province, but I've never even heard of a Canadian war re-enactment (I've never heard of the ones that Pip mentioned, for example). I guess it's because Alberta is only conservative in an economic and enviromnental sense, because of our oil reserves. The people here are largely be pro-military spending, but they treat the whole thing pretty respectfully. There's really nothing akin to pagentry about it (although in regards to the current war many of the Alberta cowboy types are pretty racist against Muslims).

[billl]

I can't say I know for sure, but there isn't much opposition (if any) to my knowledge. There are some African-American re-enactors who obviously are fine with it--there might be some others who are uncomfortable with it, but I can't ever recall hearing anyone getting upset about it. Odds are there would be someone, I guess, but...

In the media, the re-enactors are pretty much always presented as a brotherhood, a bunch of guys getting away to go camping for the weekend, possibly have some bourbon around the campfire, I imagine, and maybe getting a little weepy together at some point (again, my imagination). Actors on each side will talk about how they respect each other and the soldiers that fought, and how there's no partisanship, etc. to the point where it probably doesn't need to get mentioned anymore if the TV coverage is just a brief little snippet.

I could be wrong, but if anyone is upset about it, they are for some reason not protesting or getting news coverage. Using my imagination again, I sort of wonder if an African-American watching re-enactors on TV, or stumbling on them on a weekend country drive, might see a bunch of guys in Gray running around, a bunch of others in Blue running too or whatever, then some shooting, some guys from each side fall down, and, what the hell, I guess that's what happened.

[JuniperWoolf]

True, I guess the majority people doing the actual fighting were just young boys. Most of them probably didn't even know the details of why they were fighting, so why get angry at the reenactment? My boyfriend is a big civil war buff, he tells me that it was a horrible, gangrenous, bloody thing.

[billl]

Yeah. I had a friend in high school whose father was a Civil War buff. He wasn't a re-enactor, but that was the first time I encountered Civil War "geekdom". In 1990, when Ken Burns put out his hugely popular Civil War documentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Civil_War_(TV_series)) (10 hours long, on PBS), the infatuation became well-known nation-wide, and probably got a lot of new converts. I think that's the spirit people do the thing in, on the whole. Who knows, there might be some people with ugly fantasies going on while they run around, but it looks like they would be keeping them well-hidden from the larger community of re-enactors.

As my initial response to Mark's post probably hints at, I am actually a little surprised that, in other countries, this sort of "innocent" or "non-partisan" aspect of the phenomenon isn't so well known. Makes sense, though, of course, because there certainly is controversy in closely-related areas.

[stlukesguild]

I have a couple of friends who are into the re-enactment thing. One focuses upon the Revolutionary War and the other on the US Civil War. As has been already noted, I have never heard of the least bit of protest. The whole thing is not far removed from the popular Renaissance Fairs where reenactors get together acting out roles of peasants, dukes, lords, knights, traveling minstrels, etc... Many of the actors have both civilian and military costumes. The women play along as camp followers, bar wenches, nurses, wives, etc... The Revolutionary War reenactment would include a dress ball in which high-ranking officers and aristocrats would be dressed in their 18th century powdered wigs at a formal dance and there would be pubs with traditional (nasty) drinks). The whole thing is just an excuse for a sort of elaborate role-play... like Halloween spread out over a week with a historical aspect. I don't see it as far removed from those who are into the costume parties at Halloween... or even those into certain fashion subgroups such as Goths or Steampunk.

[Hurricane]

I didn't know that. I would have thought that the slave descendants would take issue.



Not really, because it's not really "about" slavery or the causes of the war. My Dad went through a reinacting phase and it's more about telling the story of the Civil War (and the soldiers in it) as authentically as possible. Usually when there's a reinacting event, there's a section set up where women and other men are also in costume and sort of tell the "homefront" side of the war or talk about medicine, etc.

Also, a lot of Union Reinacting units have a separate set of uniforms to "play" confederate and vice versa. Some of the guys who do this stuff are a little crazy, but most of them are just very interested in history and educating people.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The most re-enactors are ever accused of being is dorky, honestly.

I have a friend who does a yearly WW2 re-enactment with paintball. It basically sounds like a huge paintball match with little organization and a ton of drinking. I'm surprised no one's died, honestly.

[Paulclem]

We have a least a couple of battle re-enactment societies. They tend to concentrate on the English Civil War. It's not that controversial because it's difficult to map the sides on to modern factions - so it wasn't, for instance, really a North vs South thing.

One of my teachers was in the Tied Knot. He was a big noise as apparently, being a short-house, he got to play Charles 1. It suited him, pompous as he was.


The most re-enactors are ever accused of being is dorky, honestly.

I have a friend who does a yearly WW2 re-enactment with paintball. It basically sounds like a huge paintball match with little organization and a ton of drinking. I'm surprised no one's died, honestly.

Sounds great. I'd love to go paintballing. I've done the laserquest thing in the past with the laser sensors and light pulse rifle type things. etc.