A Western shortlisted on the Booker prize.

[Paulclem]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/sep/06/man-booker-prize-shortlist

The Guardian has reported that a western has been shortlisted for the Booker prize. I always used to associate Westerns with my Grandma who seemed to read nothing else, and I never read one. Te western as a film genre faded in the 80s, though I enjoyed the Brad Pitt Jesse James.

Since, i've had Zane Gray on my reading list for a while. Perhaps the genre is going to regenerate. I hear True Grit was a good film.

[JBI]

It's found new ground in other places, for instance, the Chinese expansion westward into Turkestan has elements of Western, as do movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, if vaguely, though I noticed it is toned down significantly in the English dubbing.

Western is an idea, as a genre it is weak, but there is potential as a bases for literary work, as there are with every genre. The trouble is that Westerns tend to be awfully racist and unrealistic. Something like Blood Meridian is the horrific post-modern inverse of a Western, whereas Canadian Westerns are strange, and Spagetti Westerns focus on other elements - the traditional Good Guy versus savage and land Westerns are amongst the most racist cinema and literature produced, which is probably why they fed when civil rights became a far bigger deal in the West. You cannot go out and "shoot the savages" anymore when you realize that massacring native Americans was perhaps one of the darkest traditions of Western expansion.

While a novel about a murder in Gold Rush California is probably harmless, it is hardly "Western" in the realized sense of the genre, it isn't exactly the Duke.

[Emil Miller]

Our view of westerns has been shaped by Hollywood, and while it has produced some very good films of the genre, notably those by John Ford, by and large they have mostly been been nonsense. From a literary point of view, there has been little writing of consequence but two major novels that include elements of the genre are McTeague and The Octopus by Frank Norris. These are stories that incorporate the California gold rush and the opening up of America by the railway and are often to be found in what is commonly referred to as 'westerns'.

[Paulclem]

It's found new ground in other places, for instance, the Chinese expansion westward into Turkestan has elements of Western, as do movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, if vaguely, though I noticed it is toned down significantly in the English dubbing.

Western is an idea, as a genre it is weak, but there is potential as a bases for literary work, as there are with every genre. The trouble is that Westerns tend to be awfully racist and unrealistic. Something like Blood Meridian is the horrific post-modern inverse of a Western, whereas Canadian Westerns are strange, and Spagetti Westerns focus on other elements - the traditional Good Guy versus savage and land Westerns are amongst the most racist cinema and literature produced, which is probably why they fed when civil rights became a far bigger deal in the West. You cannot go out and "shoot the savages" anymore when you realize that massacring native Americans was perhaps one of the darkest traditions of Western expansion.

While a novel about a murder in Gold Rush California is probably harmless, it is hardly "Western" in the realized sense of the genre, it isn't exactly the Duke.

Yes, it's certainly making a bit of a comeback in cinematic terms with True Grit as the latest.

I think the genre has a number of sub genres as you say, and we're unlikely to see the Cowboy v Indian aspect precisely because of the racism you pointed out.

The film Jeremiah Johnson was apparently based on two books, (I've just looked it up), about frontier men, and I always felt it was a much more interesting aspect, and is perhaps closer to the Booker entry. Hopefully there will be more of this kind and it will perhaps widen out the genre. I grew up in the 60's 70s, and I just think the traditional "Cowboy" just ran completely out of steam - though it was given a boost by Clint's take.

There was also the one man alone in conflict - the misunderstood anti-hero aspect, which I am completely sick of, and has been done to death by many film genres. I hope any new stuff moves away from this to perhaps a more historically accurate type western. We'll see.

[Venerable Bede]

I haven't read too many westerns but I grew up watching old western movies and tv shows. Looking back at the movies again when I am older, I find oodles of problems with John Wayne movies, and not just the racism. Most of them have pretty weak plots, flat characters, and misogynistic love stories. Basically, the only purpose to many of his movies is to watch John Wayne and friends surrounded by savages, picking them off and making jokes to each other, while happy, bubbly music plays in the background.

Clint Eastwood westerns on the other hand are alot better. I have seen "The Good the Bad and the Ugly" several times and I still think it's a very solid movie. It has an actual artistic quality which is lacking in most of John Wayne's movies.

The only real western novel I've read is Zane Grey's Riders of the Purple Sage and I found it very disappointing due to its weak characterization and mediocre plot. It's supposed to be one of the greatest westerns ever written, so the fact that I disliked it probably means that I'd hate any western novel. I may try Lonesome Dove some day but beyond that, all the western's I see in library's and bookstores look awful. I think someone with tremendous skill could write a great western novel but the only people who really do are average at best and just try to stick to the standard cliches.

[Paulclem]

I agree about the Jon Wayne Westerns and the better Clint ones. Clint's Westerns moved away from the Indian slaughter and a lot of the aspects of the earlier Westerns.

I happen to be reading The Deerslayerby J Fenimore Cooper at the moment, and I find this type of bbok - and film - much more interesting than the traditional Cowboy. A more insightful view of the Indian wars would be really good too. There seems to be more stuff about the Wild West about at the moment, but I would like to see more accurate renditions, anda more true to life account. I did like the Brad Pitt Jesse James.

[JBI]

I agree about the Jon Wayne Westerns and the better Clint ones. Clint's Westerns moved away from the Indian slaughter and a lot of the aspects of the earlier Westerns.

I happen to be reading The Deerslayerby J Fenimore Cooper at the moment, and I find this type of bbok - and film - much more interesting than the traditional Cowboy. A more insightful view of the Indian wars would be really good too. There seems to be more stuff about the Wild West about at the moment, but I would like to see more accurate renditions, anda more true to life account. I did like the Brad Pitt Jesse James.

I attribute that to the Italian crew.

[mal4mac]

"The chair of judges is former MI5 director Stella Rimington." Does this mean Martin Amis is going to be our man in Havanna? Or maybe Bill Bailey can becomes Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, while Stephen Hawking goes on a multi-media comedy tour?

Rimington, said: "We want people to buy these books and read them, not buy them and admire them." This has to come top of the 'vapid cliche of the year' competition. And she's chair of people judging books of literary merit? It's a bit like Putin singing Blueberry Hill... an "I got the power, so I can do anything" situation... But why did the literary establishment let her?

[Emil Miller]

"The chair of judges is former MI5 director Stella Rimington." Does this mean Martin Amis is going to be our man in Havanna? Or maybe Bill Bailey can becomes Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, while Stephen Hawking goes on a multi-media comedy tour?

Rimington, said: "We want people to buy these books and read them, not buy them and admire them." This has to come top of the 'vapid cliche of the year' competition. And she's chair of people judging books of literary merit? It's a bit like Putin singing Blueberry Hill... an "I got the power, so I can do anything" situation... But why did the literary establishment let her?

I think the answer to the question is, having the right connections and the cult of celebrity. In former times, the head of the secret service would have discreetly retired to an English village in the Cotswolds and nobody would ever have known who they were.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

I’m curious; how is a “western” defined? what are the prerequisites?

Beyond the Eastwood movie examples that do not involve hunting down or rounding up Native Americans, I listed additional examples below, using the following parameters:
19th century, between longitude 94 deg and the Pacific coast within the contiguous U.S.
Movie adaptations are the first thing that came to mind. However since we are talking about books, I conducted a brief search for each and added the story and author from which the movie was adapted:

“Shane” based on the same name story by Jack Schaefer
As for the movie, the cinematography is magnificent with the Grand Tetons as a back drop for many scenes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWdPmapuOd4


“High Noon” based on a short story by John. W. Cunningham titled “Tin Star”

I always thought Lee Van Cleef was a bad a**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLvKZ6nIiA


“Three Ten to Yuma” based on a short story by Elmore Leonard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkXDLNRVMxY

.

[Emil Miller]

I mentioned Frank Norris's novel McTeague above, it was filmed in the 1920s by the great director Erich von Stroheim. The final scene was filmed in Death Valley, one most the most hostile areas of the USA and the film crew really suffered during the shooting but the film is a masterpiece, or what's left of it because most of the reels were destroyed and only a truncated version remains. Von Stroheim titled the film Greed and some say that it is an allegory on US capitalism but the book is a truly great novel worthy of anything that the US has turned out by any author you care to name.
Having read the book a number of times, I saw the film at the National Film Theatre in London years ago and was amazed at how accurately it mirrored the novel, which isn't surprising considering Von Stroheim almost bankrupted the film company in order to get everything as perfect as he wanted.


http://youtu.be/q3EaWRHPU0w

[Paulclem]

I attribute that to the Italian crew.

:D Probably


I’m curious; how is a “western” defined? what are the prerequisites?


I wondered that too. There seems to be a few sub genres. I'm too unfamiliar with the books to suggest any definitions. I should have asked my Grandma.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

... I always used to associate Westerns with my Grandma who seemed to read nothing else, and I never read one...

Since, i've had Zane Gray on my reading list for a while. Perhaps the genre is going to regenerate...

I was scanning my book shelves and found Zane Grey among my Grandfather's collection. I haven't read it though. Thought you and your Grandma might enoy this:


http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Misc%20Album/ZaneGreycover.jpg

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/tabuka1/Misc%20Album/ZaneGreyCopyrightpage.jpg

I should give it a read.



... The final scene was filmed in Death Valley, one most the most hostile areas of the USA and the film crew really suffered during the shooting but the film is a masterpiece, or what's left of it because most of the reels were destroyed and only a truncated version remains...

[url]http://youtu.be/q3EaWRHPU0w

Mesmerizing esp with the sepia tones.

.

[hanzklein]

It's found new ground in other places, for instance, the Chinese expansion westward into Turkestan has elements of Western, as do movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, if vaguely, though I noticed it is toned down significantly in the English dubbing.

Western is an idea, as a genre it is weak, but there is potential as a bases for literary work, as there are with every genre. The trouble is that Westerns tend to be awfully racist and unrealistic. Something like Blood Meridian is the horrific post-modern inverse of a Western, whereas Canadian Westerns are strange, and Spagetti Westerns focus on other elements - the traditional Good Guy versus savage and land Westerns are amongst the most racist cinema and literature produced, which is probably why they fed when civil rights became a far bigger deal in the West. You cannot go out and "shoot the savages" anymore when you realize that massacring native Americans was perhaps one of the darkest traditions of Western expansion.

While a novel about a murder in Gold Rush California is probably harmless, it is hardly "Western" in the realized sense of the genre, it isn't exactly the Duke.
There is a huge amount of more deadly and negative messages in media than what you described, and they're everywhere.

[Chris 73]

True Grit by Charles Portis is worth a try. A sweet and amusing read.

[JBI]

There is a huge amount of more deadly and negative messages in media than what you described, and they're everywhere.

That's like saying tuberculosis is bad but AIDS is worse.

[keilj]

I haven't read too many westerns but I grew up watching old western movies and tv shows. Looking back at the movies again when I am older, I find oodles of problems with John Wayne movies, and not just the racism. Most of them have pretty weak plots, flat characters, and misogynistic love stories. Basically, the only purpose to many of his movies is to watch John Wayne and friends surrounded by savages, picking them off and making jokes to each other, while happy, bubbly music plays in the background.

Clint Eastwood westerns on the other hand are alot better. I have seen "The Good the Bad and the Ugly" several times and I still think it's a very solid movie. It has an actual artistic quality which is lacking in most of John Wayne's movies.

The only real western novel I've read is Zane Grey's Riders of the Purple Sage and I found it very disappointing due to its weak characterization and mediocre plot. It's supposed to be one of the greatest westerns ever written, so the fact that I disliked it probably means that I'd hate any western novel. I may try Lonesome Dove some day but beyond that, all the western's I see in library's and bookstores look awful. I think someone with tremendous skill could write a great western novel but the only people who really do are average at best and just try to stick to the standard cliches.


Maybe give Zane Grey's Wyoming a try. I found it to be much better than Purple Sage.

Also, Max Brand is the best western writer I've come cross. If you can track down his short story The Blackness of MacTee, or his novels featuring Riata, you might come to like his stuff