JBI: How Was China

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

JBI,

I noticed your signature says you're home from China. Now, I am by nature quite the unobservant person, so maybe that's been there for months, but I don't think so. So, how was your journey? Inquiring minds want to know!

[JBI]

I am indeed home, ask any question and I will warmly answer. As for the general idea, unclean is the best word to describe it, in both politics, culture, and the physical space.

[JuniperWoolf]

My friend Alex just went to China two days ago to teach English in some backwater villiage. He says there's a really greasey brothel literally right beside the school, they share the same courtyard.

Did you get to go somewhere with pretty bamboo forests and tigers, or were you like Alex sent to some dingy little piece of hell?

[JBI]

My friend Alex just went to China two days ago to teach English in some backwater villiage. He says there's a really greasey brothel literally right beside the school, they share the same courtyard.

Did you get to go somewhere with pretty bamboo forests and tigers, or were you like Alex sent to some dingy little piece of hell?

I was in Beijing but I did a great deal of traveling. As for bamboo, I saw some (mostly now all located in southern Sichuan), as for Tigers, they've all been eaten except for the stuffed ones in the museum.

Brothels are nothing, most hookers just knock on your door - if you have an apartment, they will stick their ads under your door, or knock, or call randomly - worse in hotels, you cannot even get a good night sleep they keep knocking. The weird thing is that Chinese men, especially rich men love to pay for hookers - it isn't uncommon to see a rich 70 year old Chinese guy with 4 hookers all to himself, sitting at a table mixing 24 year old Chivas with tea. When I said unclean, well, there you have it, and then the guy will most likely drive home piss drunk with 4 hookers in the back seat of his Ferrari. Common rule, in a bar in China, 95% of females if they are local are prostitutes. Probably 1 in 10 female university students have night jobs.

The China promoted by the international propaganda campaign is non-related to the real China - the idea of harmony, progress, understanding and respect do not exist. You basically have sleazy corruption, no regulations on anything, bad food, and even worse air. That's China - and they take your picture and point without asking you like you are a freak show.

That aside, most Chinese people are honest and kindly, and southern Chinese people are quite hospitable. It's a shame that China is such a caste society.

The toilets are beyond foul. Literally a hole with a mountain underneath where everything accumulates - in the countryside, they put the pig pen next to the "dump" so the beasts can feed. Lets just say there is no running water, and a mountain of other people's feces and urine often metres high. In cities they have running water, but it is hardly better - a public washroom can be smelt from about 200metres. And also, no seat, no walls often, and 50 eyes in a claustrophobic cage all staring at you doing your business.

Then again, I hear the women's washrooms are worse, and that women have taken to pasting their used vaginal pads on the wall - I didn't see it, but ewe.

Generally Beijing and Shanghai, and many tourist centres have built up facades that mask reality well - this is done by not letting poor people in (often by brute force) and by constantly having people cleaning those places - walk into an alley though, or turn your head even and out pops the good old undeveloped world, where less then 10% of toilets have running water. Facades only work so much when you go from tourist to temporary resident. The real tragedy though is one rich person can go to China, see only the facade, and tell you that you are crazy, and that it was clean, developed and beautiful, and totally orderly - I once threw an unopened package of noodles out, and saw 3 beggars fight each other over it. This was in the Nanchang bus station, right next to the arcade claw game machine loaded with cigarettes as prizes (and a cacophony of spitting of the worst sort imaginable).

[jajdude]

You paint a gloomy picture there my friend. It isn't all that bad for many of us over here.

[Silas Thorne]

Common rule, in a bar in China, 95% of females if they are local are prostitutes. Probably 1 in 10 female university students have night jobs.

I'm pretty familiar with Shanghai, but I wouldn't say things are that grim there. It definitely depends on the bars, and the universities. A lot of professional people go out drinking and dancing with their friends and workmates in bars which have live music and to dance clubs, although there are some very sleazy parts of the city too with dodgy bars for tourists and expats. Some universities there, even famous ones, are infamous for having female students with 'night jobs' to support their studies.

I wouldn't disagree completely with all of your other points, although you are right, people have different experiences.

I have taught in a small country school in southern China for a short stint, and yes, JuniperWoolf, I saw the kind of thing your friend saw too.

[Lokasenna]

I spent a month back-packing across China when I was in my mid-teens. Unless it has dramatically changed for the worse in the last seven years, I wonder if you were just unlucky, JBI.

Beijing isn't the most slaubrious of places, I'll grant - but I still found the culture really interesting and met a lot of friendly people there. There was a bit of a prostitution issue about, but no worse than Liverpool or Leeds; certainly nowhere near as prevalent as Amsterdam, Hamburg or Prague. It's true that there is a lot of corruption in Beijing - everyone drives brand new BMWs or really ancient bangers, with nothing in between. But I never found it as bad as you describe. As for the photographing Westerners thing, I thought it rather sweet - more often than not, they would ask me and my friends for permission first, and usually wanted to be in the picture with us. One of the friends who went with me, Kenny, is of African origin, and he pretty much became an instant celebrity whenever we were out walking; caucasians are a novelty, but black people are a real rarity out there. He took it all in his stride.

I agree with you about Chinese people as a whole: friendly, honest, helpful and really interested to talk to you. Really, the only obnoxious people we found were those working for the government.

And as for the latrines, yes, not pleasent. But I think maybe you were unlucky again - 95% of the places I went (and we were on a tight budget, so not posh places) had private stalls for you to do your business in, and about 70% of them had running water to keep the smell down.

To be honest, I really want to go back to China. I think I've seen the best and worst of what it has to offer, and still think it would be worth roughing it again to look around some more.

[JBI]

I'm pretty familiar with Shanghai, but I wouldn't say things are that grim there. It definitely depends on the bars, and the universities. A lot of professional people go out drinking and dancing with their friends and workmates in bars which have live music and to dance clubs, although there are some very sleazy parts of the city too with dodgy bars for tourists and expats. Some universities there, even famous ones, are infamous for having female students with 'night jobs' to support their studies.

I wouldn't disagree completely with all of your other points, although you are right, people have different experiences.

I have taught in a small country school in southern China for a short stint, and yes, JuniperWoolf, I saw the kind of thing your friend saw too.

That is true of Shanghai, and of the 三角 to an extent, but seriously 99/100 Northern Chinese women will tell you it is improper for women to even drink alcohol. Likewise, Shanghai is loaded with pimps, the difference is they have a Western-influenced urban culture where women have taken to drinking and smoking, something rare in China.

I said this before, China is a calculated experience. The first thing a foreign person will learn is where they cannot go, the second is where they should not go. It is not uncommon, for instance, for an elite segment of Chinese society to have no clue about the country as a whole, but if you just hop onto the CIA world factbook, you are shocked.

The experience of China is limited - firstly, if you do not speak Chinese, chances are you will not drift from major tourist centres. Secondly, if you do not have time, and darkness you won't look or see things that seem out of place.

Take Shanghai for example - if you are a local born Shanghainese person, you as good as live in a rather neat, orderly, developed city - you have the right hukou, you can go to the right schools, and you are set - for most of the people in the city, it is the exact opposite, the term Waidiren, or non-local person is a swear word, and I would say the prevalence of prostitution in the city is probably rooted in that mentality - likewise, commercialism in the third world leads to a mentality of if you don't have, you have nothing.


Now, you compare that with, lets say, the poorest province, Guizhou. I was there, and saw someone administer an IV drip in a shared table in a restaurant - but the general mentality was gloomy there, and people were not friendly, not happy, and overall just as miserable as the scenery, though the minority villages on the west part of the province, though poor, were more hospitable.


The problem with China is this - in downtown Beijing you can see foreign people, driving nice cars, and clean streets (though there is still spitting), but just take a cab, and you'll see some teenage kid driving his mercedes and cutting your cab driver off while swearing. Then you go out of that part of the city where people live, and you'll see that the vegetables are delivered to the market by donkey (yes by donkey), and you'll walk around and realize something is wrong. Then you'll look at income averages and figure out, that for someone in their 20s, a fantastic salary is less than 400$ American a month (top of the end university graduate) and things like rent are similar in cost to most major cities in the western world - you cannot legally be there unless you have the right connection (rare), you cannot own property unless you have those same connections, and money, you cannot then benefit from anything in the city (medicine, education for children, etc.) without those connections, and as such, nobody from there will think of you as human, and you will probably live 6 to a room in a shabby building, with no air conditioning and bad plumbing, not to mention all sorts of other disgusting things that occur when too many people live in too tight a space.

University students themselves, living the easy life, benefit from living 6-10 in a small room that can barely fit their crammed bunk beds - the showers are often outside, and the washrooms communal with hundreds of people on the same floor, though universities tend to have running water. That is the standard experience of every university student, except a select few who have money, and foreign students as China does not want us seeing those dormitories (where I studied, you needed a permit to go inside, though you could see the conditions on the first few floors from the street-facing windows).

One can avoid disgusting washrooms, true, but that ignores the point - in backpacker's lodges in Beijing, Xian, Shanghai, etc., you'll find good toilets, mostly with seats. Take a train, you'll see within 1 hour of the voyage what a washroom really looks like.


Seriously, there are over 30 provinces in the country - seeing 3 does not constitute seeing the best or the worse. Likewise, of the provinces, and cities, there are good and bad parts, that can appear or not appear depending on method of travel. I was held to a strict budget, I didn't have an income or a legal means of getting one, short of illegally teaching English, and likewise, I was stuck to my scholarship and my pocket money, something which 99% of Chinese people don't even have.

China is trying hard to make it seem Beijing and Shanghai are representative of the country, yet they could hardly be further. Likewise, Beijing is more rural than city, but you cannot get to the rural part easily, as even to this day the public transport becomes difficult, and no cab driver wants to go out there.

This is the real problem I have, someone can be a tourist downtown in a major city, and think wow how beautiful, and then think they have seen a complete view of a country, without as much as seeing 1/100th, and pass a judgement.

Simply put, you just head to the statistics, and it shocks people - yet things you would normally check in a western country are not listed normally. the government is secretive, and spent a year making me memorize book after book of propaganda, articles starting with things like, "Chinese people are the most modest people in the world." or "Chinese medicine can do things for illnesses that western medicine cannot, and is excellent," or "Chinese people are the most patient people in the world." or "Taiwan is China's beautiful island."

Then of course, I looked for what they said about Canada in their textbooks - similar to what they said about Australia - it's for the taking, open fields, tons of opportunity, no population, great place to move and settle, lots of natural resources. They forgot something though, the people who live here and see Canada as more than a crop to be plucked, or a cheaper alternative to American education - it's disgusting. Yet the great hall of propaganda that opened in the National museum in Beijing has a huge exhibit on how Imperialist West ruined China, and we are all evil and saw them as a market and made money - along with a Hu Jintao shrine, and no mention of any real history - the same narrative told in their textbooks, how foreign people destroyed their beautiful harmonious (feudal) society. A somewhat popular narrative in history, before it was totally defaced by simple logic, and dismissed as a jingoist oversimplification.

But yes, Canada is for the taking guys 加拿大，大家拿, a common maxim.

[qimissung]

Fascinating. I tend to believe all of you, and it's quite interesting to read the different view points. I know Silas Thorne has spent a fair amount of time there also. You saw what you saw, after all (sorry for sounding like Dr. Seuss). Actually, without being facetious, it sounds a lot like Mexico, with a small percentage of hugely wealthy people and most everyone else living in abject poverty.

I would still like to go there. I have some other places I want to go first, but it's on my list of places I plan to visit.

So you were going to school. Which one? What were your living conditions like?

How did you find the quality of education?

Did you visit any museums? The Forbidden City?

What's public transportation like?

Have you seen the Three Gorges?

Also, when you are first studying a language, how often do you study?

Do you now believe any of the propaganda you were forced to study?

Can I have Canada, since it's currently for the taking? I promise to let you, Juniper and Pip stay as long as you study the propaganda literature I throw at you (Americans are the most modest people in the world...).

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but that will do for starters. And thank you.

[JBI]

[QUOTE=qimissung;1068929]Fascinating. I tend to believe all of you, and it's quite interesting to read the different view points. I know Silas Thorne has spent a fair amount of time there also. You saw what you saw, after all (sorry for sounding like Dr. Seuss). Actually, without being facetious, it sounds a lot like Mexico, with a small percentage of hugely wealthy people and most everyone else living in abject poverty.

The interesting thing is that most political scientists who specialize in Chinese politics have been calling it the "Latin Americanization" of China since the Deng Xiaoping take over. I would say they do it better - the old families are fewer per capita, and the average person is barely a cut above animal - add to that the government control on mobility, fertility and other basic rights, and you basically have an ingrained class system on every level. In truth, I would say the system in place is designed to kill off a few hundred million people - that's the implication of it anyway.

I would still like to go there. I have some other places I want to go first, but it's on my list of places I plan to visit.

I would recommend you do, but in all honesty, it's cheaper to go to South East Asia to vacation, and it makes for a better trip. The people there are nicer, more used to tourism, and cook better food. The place is more fun. Generally China is not built for foreign tourism, but for primarily Chinese tourism. The place is not a cheap tourist location, and the government has put ridiculous entrance tickets on virtually everything.

So you were going to school. Which one? What were your living conditions like?

北京语言大学（Beijing language and culture university) paid for completely by the government of China.
How did you find the quality of education?
It's mediocre, the textbooks are good, if loaded with propaganda, and the teachers are ok, but there is no challenge, and the pace is too slow, and nobody there takes the classes seriously. People who paid to go there basically are on vacation for a year, and scholarship students are treated as marginalized students who actually need to do the work, however easy it is.

The rooms were rather simple, furniture and a bed, and a roommate, who turned out to be an anti-semite. The washrooms were communal, and disgusting, though they were cleaned often enough, an the showers were literally a pipe coming out of the wall with two controls for hot and cold - of which, do to instability could leave you one second comfortable, the next either burnt or frozen. No kitchen, nowhere to really wash anything, and radiators that went on too late, and AC units that were shut off too early.


As for Chinese students themselves, according to French professors I have talked to (one from France, one from Quebec) about 60% of the class cheats on everything. According to my professors, nobody is allowed getting under 75 in anything by decree of the government since they believe they will kill themselves (this from a 人民大学 professor). Everyone cares only about marks, and there isn't the slightest trace of an intellectual culture, or intellectual maturity. For people who study English since grade 3, it's painful to see a Ph. D. student who cannot form a sentence, much less listen to them lie about how well read they are, when most cannot name more than 3 Shakespeare plays, let alone something less common place like Spenser or Chaucer, the likes of which they've never heard of.

Did you visit any museums? The Forbidden City?

I visited the bulk of the country (all but 6 provinces, Heilongjiang, Hainan, Gansu, Ningxia, Tibet (which was closed to me), and Qinghai which was partially closed) and went to many Museums and almost all the world heritage sites, as well as numerous lesser known sites. Tourism is made for about 4 of the 12 months, as I found it more educational to be on the road then to remain on campus for any minute longer than necessary. If you go to China, minus the normal tourist nonsense, the nicest place is in the mountainous regions of Sichuan, though the food is bad (I like Sichuan food, but the remote areas have awful local supplies, and meat gets expensive for low quality).

What's public transportation like?

It's excellent within major cities, the subway system in Beijing and Shanghai are both excellent, if not packed. The busses aren't bad either. Trains come in different classes, but the annoying thing is that people hoard tickets which means sometimes you cannot get what you want, though they put measures to fix that right before I left. Airplanes are relatively cheap, and comfortable though they usually get delayed, especially if you get on a "less priority" airline. Overall, I would say public transport in China beats Canada hands down. However, overuse of transport is still problematic for them - 700million migrant workers head home every year at the same times, while the rest of the country prepares to shutdown - that is what we call chaos.
Have you seen the Three Gorges?

Yes, I went on a terrible cruise. I've seen what they looked like before the dam - they suffered much. Still beautiful, but not very exciting. For instance, it's hard to look at a monument to a poem by Li Bai about how dangerous the gorge was, and how exciting it was when you are cruising on a lake. Makes the poem read like an elegy. The small three gorges, the small small three gorges, and the beginning of the Wu gorge are beautiful though, however, the dam has caused a great deal of fog to an already sewer-like climate (though local Chongqing people will attest, tough Chongqing always stank, it stinks more now than before).

Also, when you are first studying a language, how often do you study?
I study 4-6 hours a day on leisure time, and during the year when not in class up to 18 hours a day. In China I slacked off since the pacing was slow, even though I skipped a few levels of class. Review to me seems something that should be done at home. Generally though I focus on my own time on classical Chinese which isn't taught. As for Chinese itself, I allotted while in Toronto about 1/2 of my study time to the subject.

Do you now believe any of the propaganda you were forced to study?

No, I am a sinologist and a cynic, it is hard to believe there is, for instance no gender inequality in China (according to my textbook) when I have talked to people. Simply put, in a country notorious for female infanticide, it's hard to believe such idiocy - it wasn't even skillful propaganda. Though I will say there is a population of student there who digests everything they are fed. Usually the same people who go to China with dreams of marrying very poor uneducated women from the countryside who won't mind that their life is either without direction or without prospects of which I'd say 30% of the expat population of China belongs to - after all, male expats from Western countries outnumber females something like 10 to 1.

Can I have Canada, since it's currently for the taking? I promise to let you, Juniper and Pip stay as long as you study the propaganda literature I throw at you (Americans are the most modest people in the world...).

Well there you go.

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but that will do for starters. And thank you.

[OrphanPip]

I had a political science prof who once attended a conference on women's issues in Southern China, I forget which city, and there was a brothel in the basement of the hotel where the foreign guest were housed. A bit ironic.

[JBI]

I had a political science prof who once attended a conference on women's issues in Southern China, I forget which city, and there was a brothel in the basement of the hotel where the foreign guest were housed. A bit ironic.

meh，they have a penchant for calling in the middle of the night and saying, "An mo, an mo" then when you give a "huh" they go "Massage-eey massage-eey" in a high pitch voice. meanwhile another person will knock on your door. saying the same thing.

Not saying prostitution is that large a problem comparatively, but it is annoying as hell. I'd say though that much of southern China is Matriarchal. certainly Shanghai, Sichuan and Hunan are, extremely. Though Shanghainese men have taken to ignoring local women in favor of the more easily controlled, and less maintenance migrant women.

[JuniperWoolf]

That's China - and they take your picture and point without asking you like you are a freak show.

Alex told me just this morning that this keeps happening to him. People keep taking his picture and chasing him around with their fingers opening their eyes wide to mimic his caucasion eyes. I think it's starting to piss him off.

He's in the Jiangsu province, incidentally. Is that one of the ones that you went to?

[lawpark]

JBI - did you happen to have visited some hospitals in China? That adds to your general themes ...

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Interesting stuff.

[JBI]

JBI - did you happen to have visited some hospitals in China? That adds to your general themes ...
I saw some of the one on campus, not for me, for a friend, as I never went to a hospital minus the physical they made us do at the Hong Kong Foreigners hospital or something. For the one on campus, which is supposedly not bad, it was not as unsanitary as one would think, but nobody there seemed to know what was going on half the time, and in the end my friend, who had a simple infection from eating something had to go to 4 hospitals before going to the foreign staffed hospital in a wheel chair after 4 hospitals dismissed him as just having a minor cold and prescribing herbs.


As for the physical, the ENT consisted of a mere stick out your tongue, naked eye quick peak. they weighed me with my napsack on and got my height wrong by 20 centimetres. The Blood check was thorough I believe, as they sent me the result, but I was scared getting it, though I was assured that the needle was from a brand new package.

Generally, the level of education of doctors, and the expertise there is quite lacking from what people have told me. Likewise they noted that the ones covered by the Chinese insurance were sub-par and lacking in anything, whereas the expensive ones were noticeably better, though high in price (lucky I didn't need to go, since I come from a country where top notch medical treatment is funded by the government equally and would have hated having to pay for a basic human right).


Alex told me just this morning that this keeps happening to him. People keep taking his picture and chasing him around with their fingers opening their eyes wide to mimic his caucasion eyes. I think it's starting to piss him off.

He's in the Jiangsu province, incidentally. Is that one of the ones that you went to?

Yes that is in one of the provinces most exposed to foreign culture and influence. Home of Suzhou, once called Venice of the East by Marco Polo, as well as Nanjing amongst other centres of exchange and culture.

Such a ridiculous thing is apparent even in the most understanding of areas. That isn't to say that Time magazine didn't have a special in the 40s on Chinese and Japanese people and how to tell them apart, but in today's age, something like that is still common there.

I think perhaps things will improve when they realize there are other people in the world too.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Interesting stuff indeed, I hadn't realised that things were as bad as that.

Have you got any plans to go back or would you in the future?

[cl154576]

When I went to Nanjing my distant cousins spent hours dissecting my face, hairstyle, clothes, etc., trying to find out why I looked so Western.

JBI, did you see a lot of 臭水沟? You've covered propaganda pretty well, but the pollution disturbs me too ... I got a lot of pictures of smelly, swampy green canals with garbage strewn everywhere. Is it better in the countryside maybe?

As for "massage-ey," they get that from the Japanese. My parents used to say "massage-ey" as well.

edit: just as an example, some pictures from Nanjing ...

[JBI]

I know they get it from the Japanese, but I still thought it was ridiculous. As for the countryside, the air is better, everything else is worse. The toilets in rural areas are beyond disgusting, and the food is more likely to taste bad. Likewise, development is variable - Nanjing is known however to be one of the more filthy cities in terms of air quality - Beijing is bad, but Tianjin to me was far worse. Likewise, Taiyuan was disgusting, though Shanxi is one of those places that has awful air almost everywhere.

As for actual cleanliness, I found that Hunan people seem to have no regard for garbage and dustiness all over everything. It's common to see car exhaust flavoring barbecued meat and just an air of dusty grunge hovering over the city (thinking of Changsha here), the Betel nuts people chew there do nothing for their breathe, and have a knack to rot their teeth to an unpleasant dark purple.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

When I went to Nanjing my distant cousins spent hours dissecting my face, hairstyle, clothes, etc., trying to find out why I looked so Western.

JBI, did you see a lot of 臭水沟? You've covered propaganda pretty well, but the pollution disturbs me too ... I got a lot of pictures of smelly, swampy green canals with garbage strewn everywhere. Is it better in the countryside maybe?

As for "massage-ey," they get that from the Japanese. My parents used to say "massage-ey" as well.

edit: just as an example, some pictures from Nanjing ...

The green water doesn't even look real. It looks like on exaggeration someone would use for a cartoon. Pretty gross.

After all this, I like how the US now has the bad habit of pointing to China for examples of how we should do things just because they're the new economic powerhouse. I'll take a weaker economy and lower test scores over that filth any day.

[JBI]

I think we've said enough of the bad for now.

Now, to the good:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=29&pictureid=9117

In many pockets it is quite beautiful. This was taken on pretty much unmarked territory between 康定 and 海螺沟. I will share more later, and will be putting the lot on my facebook at a different date.

[mortalterror]

When I went to Nanjing my distant cousins spent hours dissecting my face, hairstyle, clothes, etc., trying to find out why I looked so Western.

JBI, did you see a lot of 臭水沟? You've covered propaganda pretty well, but the pollution disturbs me too ... I got a lot of pictures of smelly, swampy green canals with garbage strewn everywhere. Is it better in the countryside maybe?

As for "massage-ey," they get that from the Japanese. My parents used to say "massage-ey" as well.

edit: just as an example, some pictures from Nanjing ...

Oh no, look what those awful westerners have done to this once proud land!

[lawpark]

JBI: just curious, what motivated you to learn Chinese in the first place? You are actually very motivated in learning the language, and learning about the land and the people.

[JBI]

JBI: just curious, what motivated you to learn Chinese in the first place? You are actually very motivated in learning the language, and learning about the land and the people.

Well, as a Jew I always liked Chinese food. And I always was into literature. But one time discussing literature with a friend of mine, she said, "Well, English literature is all crap. Chinese literature is better, especially Chinese poetry. So it makes no difference if I do not know anything about English." So, I thought to myself, well, I am going to learn Chinese until I read better than you, and am more versed in your literature, and then lets hear your excuse, you philistine. Besides which, Toronto has lots of Chinese people, and The University of Toronto has a very large concentration - I wanted to know what people were saying about me behind my back.

[Alexander III]

Well, as a Jew I always liked Chinese food. And I always was into literature. But one time discussing literature with a friend of mine, she said, "Well, English literature is all crap. Chinese literature is better, especially Chinese poetry. So it makes no difference if I do not know anything about English." So, I thought to myself, well, I am going to learn Chinese until I read better than you, and am more versed in your literature, and then lets hear your excuse, you philistine. Besides which, Toronto has lots of Chinese people, and The University of Toronto has a very large concentration - I wanted to know what people were saying about me behind my back.

So you devoted yourself to the understanding of chinese literature out of spite?:rolleyes5:

I kid, but I really found your posts about china very informative, it is really nice to hear fresh opinions about such things. And from what I remember of when I went, I for the most part agree with you. Though the chinese still maintain that the easiest way to tell a chinaman and japanese man apart, is that the japanese one is the short and ugly one who looks like a monkey :D

What were the thought on china of the other "westerners" with you? Did they agree with you, or were their views different?

[qimissung]

"Well, as a Jew I always liked Chinese food."

Can you explain this statement a little more thoroughly? I have a friend who is Jewish; she happens to favor Japanese food herself.


I think we've said enough of the bad for now.

Now, to the good:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=29&pictureid=9117

In many pockets it is quite beautiful. This was taken on pretty much unmarked territory between 康定 and 海螺沟. I will share more later, and will be putting the lot on my facebook at a different date.

Wow. Just wow. That is really breathtaking.

[JBI]

So you devoted yourself to the understanding of chinese literature out of spite?:rolleyes5:

I kid, but I really found your posts about china very informative, it is really nice to hear fresh opinions about such things. And from what I remember of when I went, I for the most part agree with you. Though the chinese still maintain that the easiest way to tell a chinaman and japanese man apart, is that the japanese one is the short and ugly one who looks like a monkey :D

What were the thought on china of the other "westerners" with you? Did they agree with you, or were their views different?

It varies. In general, the university discouraged people from leaving - they told us to eat all our meals in the cafeteria, and buy all our things on campus - for an inflated price. For the most part, I would say most of the Korean and Japanese exchange students, who make up about 40-50% of people would do that.

The rest just seemed interested in killing time - 60% of Western foreign students there were there to kill time, most didn't show up for class, fewer had any ambition or direction toward using Chinese for something productive. I would say a good 50% of men there were there to find wives, some did.

Generally the idea was, things are cheap, we're in a recession, lets kill time as we have nothing going on back home - not leaving the small vicinity of the campus except to go to the local foreign-run bar for cheap beers, most people drank away a year, as is common.

I would say 75% of people didn't even see most of the sites in Beijing, let alone go out of the city and see something of the country. Likewise, the government encouraged it, with a professor arguing with me about how Beijing was representative of the whole of China (Chinese people themselves completely disagree with such an absurd statement and regard Beijing as a weird, albeit attractive place).

There are also those who just spend time there getting taken advantage of and not caring. Who work and get cheated by their bosses, but do not care, who do favors for people who use them, and who are spat on and treated like animals - usually those people go there to find wives, but occasionally they just couldn't make it back home, and teaching English while being in school seems the best option.


I didn't interact much with long-term foreign residents in cities out of Beijing, so I cannot vouch for them. Generally most people just ignore the poor people in China, and don't leave their bubble. When cabs, food, and liquor are cheap, it's hard to complain really - hookers are cheap also, and lower-income women find being in a relationship a nice subsidy to their income especially if working means prostitution. Most people just drift.

Generally though, whenever you meet people on trains, foreign people in China always discuss "how China is treating them," or "how do you like China?" there is a perpetual state of us and them, and "those Chinese" which is dizzying since it creates to much of a non-acceptance.

As for people in general, lots of people in China believe taking advantage of people is the best way to get ahead, especially in big cities, and particularly in Beijing.

Most people in China I would say try to find their own little bubble, and shut out the world - that's the goal, have your friends, and pretend there is nobody else - it's sad, but it keeps people happy, because, after all, everyone there regards themselves as in transition, and not an actual part of the place.

Then again, they would usually just go on about how awesome China is, and how everything is free and easy there - you can get a massage for 70RMB, and it comes with a happy ending!

Drugs are plentiful too, and completely unregulated.

The interesting thing though was meeting those few foreign students from the very poor or obscure countries, like north Koreans, or Cambodians - for them, coming to China, and experiencing it is totally different, so it begs mention if anyone is interested.


Wow. Just wow. That is really breathtaking.

Impossible to get to almost - it's not marked, so you basically need to be with someone in a private car who knows when to stop as it isn't visible from the road without stopping. It's one of the few places in China that didn't have an entrance ticket, or a million people ruining it.


"Well, as a Jew I always liked Chinese food."

Can you explain this statement a little more thoroughly? I have a friend who is Jewish; she happens to favor Japanese food herself.

Jews in the US and Canada lived and live side by side with Chinese people - the communities are very connected, and when everyone was racist and thought Chinese food was disgusting, Jews lined up to get their fix - they love it, and for a good reason - Chinese food is awesome - talk about flavor. Americans can keep their French fries and big Macs, give me Cantonese cooking any day.

That's the reason, Jews like Chinese people, and Chinese people like Jews - we get along well, and live near each other.

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=29&pictureid=9118

This one was snapped on the border of China and North Korea at 长白山森林公园 or, Changbaishan (forever white mountain) national park, called mount Baekdu in Korean, traditionally a taboo people for Chinese persons, the place is important to Korean culture as the Birthplace of Tangun, the mythical son of Heaven. This was taken in the middle of June at the top, about 100 metres from the North Korean border post.

[cl154576]

Jews in the US and Canada lived and live side by side with Chinese people - the communities are very connected, and when everyone was racist and thought Chinese food was disgusting, Jews lined up to get their fix - they love it, and for a good reason - Chinese food is awesome - talk about flavor. Americans can keep their French fries and big Macs, give me Cantonese cooking any day.

That's the reason, Jews like Chinese people, and Chinese people like Jews - we get along well, and live near each other.

Chinese food in the US is oily and meat-oriented. I prefer home-cooked, authentic Chinese food.

Most of the Chinese people I know attach epithets to every race – 老美, 小印度, 小犹太人, etc. It confuses me as to why Americans are old and virtually everyone else is little.


http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=29&pictureid=9118

This one was snapped on the border of China and North Korea at 长白山森林公园 or, Changbaishan (forever white mountain) national park, called mount Baekdu in Korean, traditionally a taboo people for Chinese persons, the place is important to Korean culture as the Birthplace of Tangun, the mythical son of Heaven. This was taken in the middle of June at the top, about 100 metres from the North Korean border post.

Beautiful picture ...

[JBI]

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=29&pictureid=9119

Now this one from the complete opposite end - the Karakul Lake, near the border with several other countries, of central the lake is uninhabited except for the season presence of ethnic Kyrgyz nomads who frequent the lake part of the year. This far into China, Chinese ceases to be a spoken language for all but oppressive military personnel.

[JuniperWoolf]

Oh, I remember what I was going to ask. I have a Japanese friend who told me about some of the cool national holidays that they have there which are completely different from those of Canada (they seem very nature-oriented), and a German friend who told me about their spin on the winter holidays. I have a lot of interest in big, nation-wide celebrations. What were the national holidays like in China? Did they resemble ours at all(would they recognize the red and white coca-cola Santa), or were they completely different?

[JBI]

The big holiday is Chinese new year, or Spring Festival as it was renamed. It is a family reunion holiday focused on visiting family and eating.

The rest with the exception of a few days are merely civic holidays, and are treated as days off - like Labor Day, or National Day even Mid-Autumn and Tomb Sweeping Day.

[JuniperWoolf]

Oh. Well that's boring. Chinese new year is pretty fun, but I wish that they had numerous holidays like the Japanese (or us, I guess).

[cl154576]

They don't have many major ones. Most of the unique ones seem to be oriented around eating a particular food to commemorate something.

[JBI]

They don't have many major ones. Most of the unique ones seem to be oriented around eating a particular food to commemorate something.

Still, everything is chaotic with transit, as many people choose to go home - train tickets are almost impossible to buy, tourist areas are overfilled.

[lawpark]

with a professor arguing with me about how Beijing was representative of the whole of China

Sounds like he/she is a Old (lao)Beijing ...


Besides which, Toronto has lots of Chinese people, and The University of Toronto has a very large concentration - I wanted to know what people were saying about me behind my back.

But most of them are from Hong Kong speaking in Cantonese, no?



Jews in the US and Canada lived and live side by side with Chinese people - the communities are very connected, and when everyone was racist and thought Chinese food was disgusting, Jews lined up to get their fix - they love it, and for a good reason - Chinese food is awesome - talk about flavor. Americans can keep their French fries and big Macs, give me Cantonese cooking any day.

That's the reason, Jews like Chinese people, and Chinese people like Jews - we get along well, and live near each other.


I think prime example is New York City - there is Wall Street (where the Jews are) and next to Wall Street is Chinatown!

True that Jews / Chinese like each other - my best friend in freshman year is a Jew - my perception (of course very generalized, given how few Jews I actually know personally) is that Jews generally value intelligence and respect knowledge more than the general US student population.


Oh. Well that's boring. Chinese new year is pretty fun, but I wish that they had numerous holidays like the Japanese (or us, I guess).

Japanese don't celebrate lunar new year ... and at least some concept of civil holidays (using JBI's terms) the Chinese learnt from the Japanese. Japanese does not celebrate Lunar new year nor Christmas ... really hard-going from a Hong Kong Chinese (me!) when I lived there ...

JBI - you should consider writing a travellogue ... looks like many people (myself included, even though I have lived in Beijing for 5 years) enjoy reading about your experience in China.

[JBI]

Meh, these few pictures and tidbits are a mere tip of a giant iceberg.


But most of them are from Hong Kong speaking in Cantonese, no?

No, a lot are exchange students, or Canadians who speak Mandarin. It's pretty mixed.


Sounds like he/she is a Old (lao)Beijing ...

As old as you can get - supposedly father was a 北大 professor or something, she kept making references also to 侯寶林 which is strange since I think he is tediously boring as a comedian, but Beijing people love him.

She also was a little crazy - when I was just starting out, she gave me a practice question of 中醫對一些慢性病的效果不錯，尤其。。。...

So I answered, 尤其人血饅頭，什麼病都包好。and she got offended, and told me it was, "forbidden" to say that. Good old Lu Xun is rolling in his grave! Though she did teach me a great deal about Classical Chinese, even though she couldn't write a sentence in it to save her life. (her method of reading was also to just translate everything into baihua).

[OrphanPip]

As a Montrealer I always think of the Jewish community as one of the main pillars of Montreal's anglo population. The Jewish neighbourhoods, Cote St-Luc, Westmount and Hamstead are all also traditionally WASP neighbourhoods. Except for the remainders of the Hasidic community around Bernard Street near The Main. Something like 25% of Montreal's anglo community is Jewish. Added to that one of my grandfathers and a few of my cousins are Jewish, which is normal for the older English Montreal families.

[JBI]

As a Montrealer I always think of the Jewish community as one of the main pillars of Montreal's anglo population. The Jewish neighbourhoods, Cote St-Luc, Westmount and Hamstead are all also traditionally WASP neighbourhoods. Except for the remainders of the Hasidic community around Bernard Street near The Main. Something like 25% of Montreal's anglo community is Jewish. Added to that one of my grandfathers and a few of my cousins are Jewish, which is normal for the older English Montreal families.、

Jews are also a part of Montreal French culture, as many Jews there, especially now, are Francophone. But I was thinking like Toronto, since you guys don't have as large a Chinese community yet.

[OrphanPip]

、

Jews are also a part of Montreal French culture, as many Jews there, especially now, are Francophone. But I was thinking like Toronto, since you guys don't have as large a Chinese community yet.

That's true, but I understand that the North African Jews tend to live in different neighbourhoods from the Anglophone Jews (political issues around separatism probably play a part in this). Many of them are more recent arrivals too, but we have also lost a lot of the Anglo Jews to emigration to Toronto (Wikipedia says 25% of Montreal's Jewish community is French speaking). What I meant though was that as a percentage of our population, Jews are highly visible in the Anglo community. Half my high school teachers were Jewish. I also think there is a sense of English speaking Jews being a major part of Anglo Montreal history, with major Montreal business figures like the Bronfmans, the Jewish General Hospital (one of the 3 english hospitals in the city) and cultural figures like A.M. Klein, Irving Layton, and Leonard Cohen.

There are historical reasons that effected this too though, like Baron Byng high school being the only public high school along The Main, so many Jewish immigrants had no choice but to attend an English language school, which is a major part of why most of the Eastern European Jewish immigrants were integrated into the anglophone community.

[lawpark]

Meh, these few pictures and tidbits are a mere tip of a giant iceberg.



No, a lot are exchange students, or Canadians who speak Mandarin. It's pretty mixed.



As old as you can get - supposedly father was a 北大 professor or something, she kept making references also to 侯寶林 which is strange since I think he is tediously boring as a comedian, but Beijing people love him.

She also was a little crazy - when I was just starting out, she gave me a practice question of 中醫對一些慢性病的效果不錯，尤其。。。...

So I answered, 尤其人血饅頭，什麼病都包好。and she got offended, and told me it was, "forbidden" to say that. Good old Lu Xun is rolling in his grave! Though she did teach me a great deal about Classical Chinese, even though she couldn't write a sentence in it to save her life. (her method of reading was also to just translate everything into baihua).

Hillarious!!!

I couldn't write anythign in classical Chinese either ... I guess not many people can nowadays.

Have you met your compatriot 大山 in Beijing?!

[JBI]

No, he was in Shanghai while I was there, but I didn't want to/get a chance to see him. He is such a boring speaker in English, and not at all funny in Chinese. Though truth be told, he lives in Canada most of the year when he is not doing this or that fundraising event.

[Brucini]

JBI's narrative is "eye opening." A really different angle than one gleans in the U.S. press. It makes sense but, as always, I'm trying to sort out what part is personal bad experience and what part is well observed experience.
Nonetheless, your comments are very useful.
What do you, JBI, think China will be 5, 10 and 35 years from now?

[mortalterror]

She also was a little crazy - when I was just starting out, she gave me a practice question of 中醫對一些慢性病的效果不錯，尤其。。。...

So I answered, 尤其人血饅頭，什麼病都包好。and she got offended, and told me it was, "forbidden" to say that. Good old Lu Xun is rolling in his grave!

I quite enjoyed that short story. William A. Lyell translates it's title as Medicine in the version I read. As I recall, the child died of Tuberculosis or some such thing.

[Alexander III]

It varies. In general, the university discouraged people from leaving - they told us to eat all our meals in the cafeteria, and buy all our things on campus - for an inflated price. For the most part, I would say most of the Korean and Japanese exchange students, who make up about 40-50% of people would do that.

The rest just seemed interested in killing time - 60% of Western foreign students there were there to kill time, most didn't show up for class, fewer had any ambition or direction toward using Chinese for something productive. I would say a good 50% of men there were there to find wives, some did.

Generally the idea was, things are cheap, we're in a recession, lets kill time as we have nothing going on back home - not leaving the small vicinity of the campus except to go to the local foreign-run bar for cheap beers, most people drank away a year, as is common.

I would say 75% of people didn't even see most of the sites in Beijing, let alone go out of the city and see something of the country. Likewise, the government encouraged it, with a professor arguing with me about how Beijing was representative of the whole of China (Chinese people themselves completely disagree with such an absurd statement and regard Beijing as a weird, albeit attractive place).

There are also those who just spend time there getting taken advantage of and not caring. Who work and get cheated by their bosses, but do not care, who do favors for people who use them, and who are spat on and treated like animals - usually those people go there to find wives, but occasionally they just couldn't make it back home, and teaching English while being in school seems the best option.


I didn't interact much with long-term foreign residents in cities out of Beijing, so I cannot vouch for them. Generally most people just ignore the poor people in China, and don't leave their bubble. When cabs, food, and liquor are cheap, it's hard to complain really - hookers are cheap also, and lower-income women find being in a relationship a nice subsidy to their income especially if working means prostitution. Most people just drift.

Generally though, whenever you meet people on trains, foreign people in China always discuss "how China is treating them," or "how do you like China?" there is a perpetual state of us and them, and "those Chinese" which is dizzying since it creates to much of a non-acceptance.

As for people in general, lots of people in China believe taking advantage of people is the best way to get ahead, especially in big cities, and particularly in Beijing.

Most people in China I would say try to find their own little bubble, and shut out the world - that's the goal, have your friends, and pretend there is nobody else - it's sad, but it keeps people happy, because, after all, everyone there regards themselves as in transition, and not an actual part of the place.

Then again, they would usually just go on about how awesome China is, and how everything is free and easy there - you can get a massage for 70RMB, and it comes with a happy ending!

Drugs are plentiful too, and completely unregulated.

The interesting thing though was meeting those few foreign students from the very poor or obscure countries, like north Koreans, or Cambodians - for them, coming to China, and experiencing it is totally different, so it begs mention if anyone is interested.



Yes seems more or less what I expected. Except the 50% getting married, thats sounds very weird. Most of the young european guys I know, who enjoy drifting about and drinking and pleasuring their lives away (not that I think there is anything wrong with that, its just as fine as being a scholar in my eyes - to each his own, and what gives him the most pleasure)

But from what I know, the fact that they would marry poor chinese girls seems strange. Firstly they would risk getting disowned from their families, or at the very least their money flow from their parents would be cut of. All the guys, would rather partake in the time honored sport of "how many prostitutes can I band with before I get the clamp". The marrying thing sounds weird.

[cl154576]

It could be practical, though. Marry a poor girl who considers herself forever indebted, pay for her education, make her earn a salary and do all the housework besides, then run off and continue with your pleasure-seeking. Your "wife," being a devoted slave, ought never to complain.

It's the way my father still thinks. Marriage is an investment.

[JBI]

Yes seems more or less what I expected. Except the 50% getting married, thats sounds very weird. Most of the young european guys I know, who enjoy drifting about and drinking and pleasuring their lives away (not that I think there is anything wrong with that, its just as fine as being a scholar in my eyes - to each his own, and what gives him the most pleasure)

But from what I know, the fact that they would marry poor chinese girls seems strange. Firstly they would risk getting disowned from their families, or at the very least their money flow from their parents would be cut of. All the guys, would rather partake in the time honored sport of "how many prostitutes can I band with before I get the clamp". The marrying thing sounds weird.

Well, anyone with white skin pretty much can earn 130-150RMB an hour teaching English, if not more, even if they cannot make a sentence. Most Chinese people do not even come close to earning that - the idea of being disowned by the parents is not an issue - many people go to China with the idea of not coming back, or not coming back alone, race or education are hardly concerns for people who are mediocre to begin with. Very little real talent goes to China, I would wager, unless they go with Western backing, to work for Western companies, Western contractors, or to go on a Western university backed exchange.

Expats in general have a weird drifter quality about them.

Then again, there is always that classic good old French Tanguy stereotype, a film that everyone should see.

[mortalterror]

Then again, there is always that classic good old French Tanguy stereotype, a film that everyone should see.

Sounds like the 2006 film Failure to Launch.

[Alexander III]

Expats in general have a weird drifter quality about them.


Yea I know, it's true - My parents were expats and I lived amongst expat communities all my life. The children of expats, are the worse though. We are probably the most self-centered, cruel and hedonistic group around. And growing up around the world, does instill some level of racism too, all of us are a bit right wing and a bit racist. But then again, I guess we see and understand the world in a different manner, and have more cultural perspective, so the disillusionment and haughtiness and sense of superiority and the conservative stance and the debauchery come very naturally. We are not a pretty lot.

I remember one of my friends, he had a stint in Manila. This was when he was 15-16. After school, on some days he and some of his friends would walk 15 minutes away from their international school and get 10 dollar blow-jobs from some of the working girls.

Things like this, leave very earnest impressions of peoples and nations and mankind in general on a person when they are young. There is very little sugar coating for a kid who grows up in expat communities. From a moral point, it does us bad. From an ambition and success point, it does us good.

[OrphanPip]

I remember one of my friends, he had a stint in Manila. This was when he was 15-16. After school, on some days he and some of his friends would walk 15 minutes away from their international school and get 10 dollar blow-jobs from some of the working girls.


Oh please, I grew up around crack houses, actually I still live in a neighbourhood of crack heads, so that's nothing too spectacular. It only sounds spectacular if you actually lived a sheltered life. And Montreal is a relatively nice place, these kinds of debauchery, drug use, and general malaise are ordinary fair in every city in the world. Hell, my brother's building has a brothel filled with street kids in it on the second floor.

[JBI]

Oh please, I grew up around crack houses, actually I still live in a neighbourhood of crack heads, so that's nothing too spectacular. It only sounds spectacular if you actually lived a sheltered life. And Montreal is a relatively nice place, these kinds of debauchery, drug use, and general malaise are ordinary fair in every city in the world. Hell, my brother's building has a brothel filled with street kids in it on the second floor.

I would have just said it seems like they overpaid, judging by how I hear things were, and are in Manila, still, the idea of some kids doing it in a foreign country is kind of weird.

By expats though I meant those people aged usually around their early 30s, or for students probably around 26-27, who are like backpackers who suck at backpacking. In general there is a popular trend of going to Asia to teach English - the best go to Korea or Japan, then others go to Taiwan, and usually on the last tier go to China, because it has the lowest buffer (some go to China where it has a high buffer, but are usually affiliated with foreign affiliated schools). These people are not accepted by society where they move, so are in a point of stasis, not some rich people, but paid better usually than local populations at the moment - they kind of just float.


Sounds like the 2006 film Failure to Launch.

Not at all, and I referenced it because a "Tanguy" is a cultural stereotype, though I do not want to spoil the ending of the film.

[Pensive]

For a person like me who is very interested in cultural studies, reading an account of China (our next-door neighbour :p) from JBI's perspective has been very interesting! Thank you!

[Melysnl]

JBI, I appreciate your candid commentary about China. I just returned from teaching in Korea and your description of China sounds remarkably like what I experienced there. Literally down to the fact that my teacher housing was located in the red light district. There were ten other teachers living in my building, right next to a church, and the rest of our immediate neighbors were hookers. Did you visit Korea while you were there?

I'm nearly finished writing a book about my experiences teaching in Korea and I'm thinking about teaching in China and keeping a journal of my experiences there as well. Do you think that the expat teachers live in decent housing there? It's one of my main concerns and why I'm a bit hesitant to go. My housing in Korea was unacceptable due to black mold, electrical/heating problems...I could go on. If I go, I'm pretty set on living in Shanghai as well. Is there decent affordable housing on a teacher's salary? I would appreciate any comments or advice. I hope you're enjoying being back in the US right now. I hate cliches but there really is no place like home and after that stint in Korea for me, I've never felt better about coming home. Let me know what you think when you get some time. Cheers!

[lawpark]

Umm ... JBI lives in Canada.

In Shanghai, I have a sense (I lived there for 2.5 years, as a not-so-decadent expat in my view) that many of the universities are quite far away from downtown, so maybe there are affordable housing around university areas for teachers ... but I actually have no idea how much English teachers would be making in Shanghai ...

[JBI]

Umm ... JBI lives in Canada.

In Shanghai, I have a sense (I lived there for 2.5 years, as a not-so-decadent expat in my view) that many of the universities are quite far away from downtown, so maybe there are affordable housing around university areas for teachers ... but I actually have no idea how much English teachers would be making in Shanghai ...

It will be trickier to get a job in Shanghai, and probably a bad idea in terms of economy. Rent in Shanghai is huge, living expenses not cheap, and jobs harder to come by. In terms of teaching, you are far better off in a smaller city, since most places seem to pay the same amount (150 an hour for full time work or so, something like 12-15thousand a month is generally a salary with housing provided) Freelancing can make more - I know somebody who was tutoring prospect immigrants to Quebec in French pulling in 300 an hour while teaching at my university with free housing and 2000 a month provided for 2 hours of teaching a week - not bad. That is a rare example of course, but they do exist.

Personally, from everything I can gather, going to China to teach English is a dead end - if you go to Korea, it is easy to spend a few years, travel around Asia, and pocket some money to pay off debts/go to grad school/ start your life. If you go to China, you'll never have enough money to settle anywhere but China, unless you get a real job that isn't teaching English.

The bureaucracy will begin to murder you quickly, as you are a perpetual foreigner going through awful paperwork over and over again - some people never leave, most of them get married to a local girl and settle down - the divorce rate is high as well. Taiwan is considered the more fashionable option, but even that is being swarmed, and they are looking for teachers with experience and actual fluency now (I assume you have both).


I was not in South Korea - my sister lived there for a time, but I personally didn't make it out of the airport (excellent airport by the way). I was on the border with North Korea, but to be honest hold no interest toward visiting Korea in the near future.



If one is going to be a successful expat in Asia, one needs a good degree with a good specialist to begin with. Computer science, engineering, law, business, and the like - or one needs to go in as an entrepreneur - I do not know about elsewhere, but if you do that in China, you best marry someone Chinese because the market is closed off pretty much to foreigners - they can invest money but not own anything.


To be honest, if you need to work in China, go to Chengdu, or Qingdao, or Kunming or something - those cities have far cheaper rent, and are far easier to live in than Shanghai - you will put most of your pay check toward rent and utilities in Beijing or Shanghai, or live in the middle of nowhere. Generally, plan for Shanghai on 2500-3000RMB a month for rent if you want your own place in a good location, or half that if you want to live in the suburbs. Universities are mostly in the suburbs so you could go there, but it is also possible to affiliate yourself with a university who will put you up in their housing for the year, and work under the table by the hour for cash to supplement your income.


As for red light districts, the hostels when I was in Vienna were right near the red light district - I stumbled home drunk at age 18 and took a wrong turn once :p though didn't have the wallet, or intuition to go in.

As for the red light districts in China - they do not exist. They will find you anywhere, on any tier in any location. They will put ads under your door, call your phone and spam your email - they will approach you in a bar, on the street, in hotels - basically anywhere.

[yuka]

Hangzhou(borders Shanghai) also a good choice for foreigners to teach English there. Living expenses not so high( much lower than Shanghai), jobs easier to get( the foreign teacher in high demand). In Hangzhou there are many foreigners, you can easily make some foreign friends if you like. And a good place to convenient travel around( to other places both inside and outside China) with it’s good location and well-developed transportation. Hangzhou is widely known as “ a paradise on earth, the cultural city, the home of silk, the capital of tea”, all in all, working and living in Hangzhou is a not bad choice, especially the university zone, the air there is really nice.

[lawpark]

I recalled Hangzhou lake area is really nice, and the industrial area not very nice ...

[jajdude]

There are other sites to ask questions about living and working in China and elsewhere if anyone is interested. www.eslcafe.com may be the most well-known, with mostly teachers of English.

[yuka]

I recalled Hangzhou lake area is really nice, and the industrial area not very nice ...


Do you mean Xihu(West Lake)? There really a good place. And yes the industrial area not very nice, but you don't need to live in industrial area.

[lawpark]

That is right ... I meant to say "in Hangzhou the lake area" ... typed too fast ...