Scientism = dumb dogmatism

[G L Wilson]

"In esssence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth." In other words, scientism is no substitute for religion. It is in fact a faith, a fiction, a fantasy of faith. The philosophy of science allows for doubt, theology allows for conviction. It is a poor thinker who is convinced of his own theories.

[Delta40]

I'm so poor here....wedged firmly between my beliefs, convictions and self-doubts.....oh what to do, what to do!

[G L Wilson]

I'm so poor here....wedged firmly between my beliefs, convictions and self-doubts.....oh what to do, what to do!

You could come over to the dark side, Delta40.

[Delta40]

Wha? I thought I was! Or maybe it's because I didn't pay my power bill...

[Alexander III]

I am quite sure that The Romantic movement was all about that, denouncing the cold enlightenment which thought that reason and science and logic were the only truths. Romanticism said, yes I have reason and logic, but I shall not tie myself solely to it; like a swan that chooses only to swim and not to fly.

[Panglossian]

If only the master of the universe would tell us what percentage of reality is beyond human intelligence, then we could decide which worldview is the best way forward. If he, the master of the universe, told us that 90% of reality is and will always be beyond our ken, we could go back to charming snakes and doing stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwHWbsvgQUE

[G L Wilson]

Albert Einstein was overall a very poor thinker.

[MarkBastable]

" It is a poor thinker who is convinced of his own theories.

You're getting to the stage now where, to quote Hobbes, you're making "language an impediment to understanding".

[Varenne Rodin]

I don't think Albert Einstein was a poor thinker at all. He was very self doubting and even self loathing at times. He had confidence in his cognitive abilities, but recognized that they were still limited. He constantly questioned everything. He was a sexual deviant, and I doubt he would have claimed to be a man of convictions.

[Delta40]

Albert Einstein was overall a very poor thinker.

That comment smacks of penis envy to me. :nod: How should I write that mathematically?

[The Atheist]

"In esssence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth." In other words, scientism is no substitute for religion. It is in fact a faith, a fiction, a fantasy of faith. The philosophy of science allows for doubt, theology allows for conviction. It is a poor thinker who is convinced of his own theories.

Nice of you to come up with a description that flies in the face of the accepted meaning, but I guess it's harder to build a strawman out of.

I'll accept this description of scientism rather than yours, thanks:


Scientism is the notion that natural science constitutes the most authoritative worldview or form of human knowledge, and that it is superior to all other interpretations of life.

My bolding should give the obvious clue to where the problem is.


You're getting to the stage now where, to quote Hobbes, you're making "language an impediment to understanding".

But it's helluva fun doing it is my guess. Like this:


Albert Einstein was overall a very poor thinker.

Comments like that hardly bear reading, let alone answering.

[G L Wilson]

Einstein was a deist, a determinist and a drag on physics in the end.

Look at a selection of quotes by the guy. I understand what he means but very few others would.

Hume was more on the money, that you couldn't determine cause: it was bad for history but a closer proof of the doctrine of free will as you are ever likely to get.

[Dodo25]

I never met an adherent to 'scientism'. I think the term is a pathetic straw-man designed by people who feel cornered in arguments and thus come up with relativism nonsense. It's quite annyoing, whenever you try to have a serious discussion, you gotta spend at least 75% of the time arguing about epistemology instead of just talking about the issue directly. What's up with all those amateur philosophers and their anti-science attitude??

[G L Wilson]

I never met an adherent to 'scientism'. I think the term is a pathetic straw-man designed by people who feel cornered in arguments and thus come up with relativism nonsense. It's quite annyoing, whenever you try to have a serious discussion, you gotta spend at least 75% of the time arguing about epistemology instead of just talking about the issue directly. What's up with all those amateur philosophers and their anti-science attitude??

Scientism is not science, it's religion.

[MarkBastable]

I understand what he means but very few others would.


...ah, there's the problem. Very few people are as bright as you. Frankly, we should be flattered that you deign to speak to us at all.

[Delta40]

...ah, there's the problem. Very few people are as bright as you. Frankly, we should be flattered that you deign to speak to us at all.

I agree. Does this mean G L Wilson is a Great Deign?

[G L Wilson]

...ah, there's the problem. Very few people are as bright as you. Frankly, we should be flattered that you deign to speak to us at all.

You never fail to be presumptous and rude. Why you have never been called for trolling is beyond me.

[YesNo]

Einstein was a deist, a determinist and a drag on physics in the end.

Look at a selection of quotes by the guy. I understand what he means but very few others would.

Hume was more on the money, that you couldn't determine cause: it was bad for history but a closer proof of the doctrine of free will as you are ever likely to get.

I don't know much about Hume. Do you have a reference?

Was he saying that there is no cause whatsoever within the space-time matter-energy universe for some events, such as spontaneous radioactive decay, or that we will not be able to know all the causes no matter how hard we look?

[Silas Thorne]

Oh, but Mark's comment was amusing, and much needed in this thread. :)

[YesNo]

I never met an adherent to 'scientism'. I think the term is a pathetic straw-man designed by people who feel cornered in arguments and thus come up with relativism nonsense. It's quite annyoing, whenever you try to have a serious discussion, you gotta spend at least 75% of the time arguing about epistemology instead of just talking about the issue directly. What's up with all those amateur philosophers and their anti-science attitude??
Part of the problem with "serious discussions" is that people engaging in them get too serious about what is going on. They want the other person to agree with them more than they want to use the other person's comments as a prompt to clarify their own position.

One of the things that politicians, missionaries and advertisers have in common is the desire to "talk about the issues directly". What that means to them is they want the opportunity to get a vote, a convert or a person ready to buy their product. They don't want to be distracted by responses that disagree with their positions. That is all "nonsense". For them, communication is a one-way street and they direct the traffic.

[G L Wilson]

I don't know much about Hume. Do you have a reference?

Was he saying that there is no cause whatsoever within the space-time matter-energy universe for some events, such as spontaneous radioactive decay, or that we will not be able to know all the causes no matter how hard we look?

Hume said, "There is no such thing as chance in the world," which means in his philosophy that there was a cause but it couldn't be known.

[MarkBastable]

You never fail to be presumptous and rude. Why you have never been called for trolling is beyond me.

How can it be beyond you? Nothing else is.

[G L Wilson]

Oh, but Mark's comment was amusing, and much needed in this thread. :)

If that was a joke, the joke's on me.

[G L Wilson]

How can it be beyond you? Nothing else is.

I have learnt over time that I know very little. But one thing that I do know is that you live to annoy people.

[Varenne Rodin]

Which one of you will be Alpha male? I can't wait to see!

Albert Einstein was brilliant. Emotionally, he was nearly crushed and devastated by the society he was born into. I'm surprised you don't feel you can relate to that, G L.

[Dodo25]

Part of the problem with "serious discussions" is that people engaging in them get too serious about what is going on. They want the other person to agree with them more than they want to use the other person's comments as a prompt to clarify their own position.

One of the things that politicians, missionaries and advertisers have in common is the desire to "talk about the issues directly". What that means to them is they want the opportunity to get a vote, a convert or a person ready to buy their product. They don't want to be distracted by responses that disagree with their positions. That is all "nonsense". For them, communication is a one-way street and they direct the traffic.

That's a good point, but I don't think it's an argument against the point I was making. (My point was that 'scientism' in the dogmatic sense has virtually no adherents, and that there are, nevertheless, good reasons to think that science is the best way to learn anything.)

People should be HAPPY to be convinced of something. It's not about 'winning or loosing' the argument, if someone changes their mind, both parties won. As soon as people get too attached to their view, this becomes an irrational bias. The goal should be 'truth', not 'being the one that wins'.

(And btw, I define 'truth' as whatever accurately predicts future outcomes.)

[Varenne Rodin]

I agree that science is the best system we have for explaining the physical world. It's beautiful, and complex, and it frequently challenges its own established theories. I think the possibility exists for any conviction to be dismissed.

[YesNo]

Hume said, "There is no such thing as chance in the world," which means in his philosophy that there was a cause but it couldn't be known.
Checking Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume, I see he lived in the 18th century. If he did not believe in chance, I think that would make him a determinist, but didn't you mention that he promoted free will? Perhaps I missed the point you were making.

Anyway, I think I'll see if I can find something in the library by him this evening.

[MarkBastable]

I have learnt over time that I know very little. But one thing that I do know is that you live to annoy people.

Very carefully selected people, and only in retaliation.

[G L Wilson]

Very carefully selected people, and only in retaliation.

In retaliation for the wounding of your sense of justice or pride? I see you as having no stake in anything of great importance, hence why the rage?

[G L Wilson]

Checking Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume, I see he lived in the 18th century. If he did not believe in chance, I think that would make him a determinist, but didn't you mention that he promoted free will? Perhaps I missed the point you were making.

Anyway, I think I'll see if I can find something in the library by him this evening.

He is very good, I assure you.


Which one of you will be Alpha male? I can't wait to see!

Albert Einstein was brilliant. Emotionally, he was nearly crushed and devastated by the society he was born into. I'm surprised you don't feel you can relate to that, G L.

I am not saying that he wasn't a human being. I am saying that his thinking was poor overall.

[BienvenuJDC]

GL...I'm seeing a part of you that I haven't seen before...
Good thread...

[Varenne Rodin]

G L, what gives? Are you trying to fly under the radar of dominionism? You have BienvenuJDC in your corner. Um...mission accomplished?

[MarkBastable]

In retaliation for the wounding of your sense of justice or pride? I see you as having no stake in anything of great importance, hence why the rage?

Nah - in direct retaliation to having been annoyed. You're annoying.

[G L Wilson]

Nah - in direct retaliation to having been annoyed. You're annoying.

And you're vain.

[Calidore]

You know, G.L., I've admired (and mentioned this elsewhere) the fact that you always went your own way and never responded to the attacks. Don't change that philosophy. People may question the value of some of your postings, but why give them postings that there's no question about?

Mark, unless I haven't been paying attention (no reason I should be, I guess), this isn't typical of you either.

[BienvenuJDC]

G L, what gives? Are you trying to fly under the radar of dominionism? You have BienvenuJDC in your corner. Um...mission accomplished?

I'm reasonable.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'm reasonable.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise, Bien. It's just that your type of Christian philosophy tends to be in line with dominionism. You and G L have often been at odds. Now that he has taken to bashing Einstein, you're having a change of heart, it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's tough for me to wrap my head around the idea of an atheist like G L disliking a man who has made great scientific contributions. Ridiculing Einstein is like a goal of dominionism. It just seems counterproductive, and I wonder what the motivation is.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this debate sucks. You're all super sweethearts and I thank you for the dynamic conversation. :D

[BienvenuJDC]

I didn't mean to imply otherwise, Bien. It's just that your type of Christian philosophy tends to be in line with dominionism. You and G L have often been at odds. Now that he has taken to bashing Einstein, you're having a change of heart, it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's tough for me to wrap my head around the idea of an atheist like G L disliking a man who has made great scientific contributions. Ridiculing Einstein is like a goal of dominionism. It just seems counterproductive, and I wonder what the motivation is.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this debate sucks. You're all super sweethearts and I thank you for the dynamic conversation. :D

I've discovered that GL doesn't reside in any particular camp. I don't either.

[MystyrMystyry]

Thankyou Varenne :)

I've met many an over-philosophising type, and have learnt to avoid them - they all aggravate at minimum exposure (in my first hand experience), and I'm sure they're very clever in their loopy way, but genuine laughter's lost on them and socially they're mere experts of the superior smirk

Philosophy is only a single aspect of a full life, and will lead to defeatism quicker than anything else, and forget the argument that philosophy is a language to be studied - it should be, but not to the exclusion of everything else

That's my philosophy anyway

[Varenne Rodin]

"...and if you don't like that one, I've got others." - Groucho Marx, I think.

People want to speak authoritatively on matters. I'm reminded of a Jack Handey quote: “Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend." ;)

[BienvenuJDC]

"...and if you don't like that one, I've got others." - Groucho Marx, I think.

"Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas...what he was doing in my pajamas, I don't know.." Groucho

[Varenne Rodin]

"Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas...what he was doing in my pajamas, I don't know.." Groucho

Hahaha. Gotta love Groucho!

[G L Wilson]

I don't see how the knocking of Einstein, for the zealot that he obviously was, is somehow a threat to the security of secularism. In actual fact I thought that it would somewhat reverse the slow decline into dumb tyranny that is so evident in America and other places.

Einstein is not an obvious target of the religious right. At any rate, the religious right is virtually toothless in the face of severe opposition.

Also, I love Groucho too.

[YesNo]

I didn't mean to imply otherwise, Bien. It's just that your type of Christian philosophy tends to be in line with dominionism. You and G L have often been at odds. Now that he has taken to bashing Einstein, you're having a change of heart, it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's tough for me to wrap my head around the idea of an atheist like G L disliking a man who has made great scientific contributions. Ridiculing Einstein is like a goal of dominionism. It just seems counterproductive, and I wonder what the motivation is.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this debate sucks. You're all super sweethearts and I thank you for the dynamic conversation. :D

I've known at least one person in my life who disliked Einstein because he was Jewish. I don't know if this is why G L Wilson dislikes him, but without more specific information, anti-semitism is as good an explanation as any other.

What is "dominionism"?

[Varenne Rodin]

Dominionism is when Christians attempt to seize control of secular civil government and basically start biblical rule. It's also known as subjectivism, or Christian Reconstructionism. It's a movement that's been gaining ground with the growing number of American evangelicals. They don't specifically attack Einstein, but they do attempt to make scientists out to be fanatical "believers," and they have taken the stance that science is "scientism." The goal being to have science reduced or removed from public schools, throwing out evolution in favor of creationism. There's more to it, and I'm probably not the best person to describe it. It's long and involved and has much to do with interpreting biblical scripture in ways that I think are dangerous to women, minorities, gays, and poor people.

I'm not saying G L is a dominionist at all, I was just noting that demeaning a scientist and attaching dogma to science is a similar philosophy and is of no help to secular people trying to escape that type of stigma.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please keep in mind that this forum welcomes members of all ages with different social, cultural and religious backgrounds from all over the world.

~

[G L Wilson]

Who cares if Einstein was Jewish? Science is a region of doubt, not conviction.

[Varenne Rodin]

Who cares if Einstein was Jewish? Science is a region of doubt, not conviction.

If you're anti-religion, and anti-science, do you fancy yourself a Nihilist?

[G L Wilson]

If you're anti-religion, and anti-science, do you fancy yourself a Nihilist?

Who said that I was anti-science? I am anti-scientism. And as for the accusation that I am anti-semitic, the accusation is plainly ridiculous. I don't believe in having convictions, for they are plainly ridiculous. Therefore, I guess that I am a bit of a nihilist.

[Varenne Rodin]

That one didn't come from me, man. I don't really think about racism.

[G L Wilson]

That one didn't come from me, man. I don't really think about racism.

I say a few critical things about Jews and the next minute I'm an anti-semite. Are Jews a protected species or something? Are they above all criticism? Really, it is beneath contempt.

[YesNo]

I say a few critical things about Jews and the next minute I'm an anti-semite. Are Jews a protected species or something? Are they above all criticism? Really, it is beneath contempt.
Hmmm. You say that you're not anti-semitic. So, what then is your problem with Einstein?

Why is Einstein "the zealot that he obviously was"? What is this "dumb tyranny that is so evident in America and other places" anyway and what does it have to do with Einstein assuming it exists? Or do you believe in things now that don't exist?

Just a reminder, the Romans killed Jesus, not the Jews. Just let it go. You don't have to take it out on them.

[G L Wilson]

Hmmm. You say that you're not anti-semitic. So, what then is your problem with Einstein?

Why is Einstein "the zealot that he obviously was"? What is this "dumb tyranny that is so evident in America and other places" anyway and what does it have to do with Einstein assuming it exists? Or do you believe in things now that don't exist?

Just a reminder, the Romans killed Jesus, not the Jews. Just let it go. You don't have to take it out on them.

You are the dumb tyranny. There's nothing worse than a whiney Jew and his defender aka Woody Allen and sycophant.

[Varenne Rodin]

Hm. Yeah. I still don't see the problem with Einstein.

[YesNo]

You are the dumb tyranny. There's nothing worse than a whiney Jew and his defender aka Woody Allen and sycophant.
Can I be the tooth fairy as well?

So, back to topic, what is your problem with Einstein?

[Varenne Rodin]

You are the dumb tyranny. There's nothing worse than a whiney Jew and his defender aka Woody Allen and sycophant.

Nothing worse than a whiney Jew? Wow. I didn't see what people disliked about you before now, G L. Hating an ethnic background is one of the most ridiculous things people do.

[G L Wilson]

Can I be the tooth fairy as well?

So, back to topic, what is your problem with Einstein?

God. "He is only one who understands me." Boo hoo.

[G L Wilson]

Nothing worse than a whiney Jew? Wow. I didn't see what people disliked about you before now, G L. Hating an ethnic background is one of the most ridiculous things people do.

I hate everyone. I am not prejudiced.

[G L Wilson]

The attacks on me recently have been unreasonable, and I have reacted unreasonably, I apologise.

I battle with ideas every day, not people.

[cl154576]

I hate everyone. I am not prejudiced.

Is it not a prejudice to hate everyone before you know everyone?

[OrphanPip]

Nothing worse than a whiney Jew? Wow. I didn't see what people disliked about you before now, G L. Hating an ethnic background is one of the most ridiculous things people do.

It's not his first display of anti-semitism on the forum either.

[YesNo]

I battle with ideas every day, not people.

I'm reading Hume's An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding http://18th.eserver.org/hume-enquiry.html as a result of your recommendation.

I would not have thought about reading Hume if it weren't for this thread. Thanks!

[G L Wilson]

It's not his first display of anti-semitism on the forum either.

I don't think that it is anti-semitism to call a person a whiney Jew. To say that Einstein was a brilliant scientist and not much of a philosopher is not saying very much at all.

[Varenne Rodin]

I don't think that it is anti-semitism to call a person a whiney Jew. To say that Einstein was a brilliant scientist and not much of a philosopher is not saying very much at all.

You didn't call one person a whiney Jew, you said there's nothing worse than a whiney Jew. If I said there's nothing worse than a swimming dolphin, would you think I was talking about one specific dolphin? Of course not. Besides, I love dolphins.

Racism doesn't feel good when it's directed at you. I don't know if you have ever felt it, but I have. It's stupid. Try not to be stupid.

[G L Wilson]

You didn't call one person a whiney Jew, you said there's nothing worse than a whiney Jew. If I said there's nothing worse than a swimming dolphin, would you think I was talking about one specific dolphin? Of course not. Besides, I love dolphins.

Racism doesn't feel good when it's directed at you. I don't know if you have ever felt it, but I have. It's stupid. Try not to be stupid.

I am rarely stupid; but when I am stupid, it is rarely over race.

[cl154576]

Maybe it would be fairer to say that any whiney person, especially one who whines about being victimized, is irritating?

[G L Wilson]

Maybe it would be fairer to say that any whiney person, especially one who whines about being victimized, is irritating?

What I meant by the remark is that culture marks a man consciously or unconsciously with deep conviction.

[Drkshadow03]

It's not his first display of anti-semitism on the forum either.

Which makes his whiney pleas that he isn't anti-Semitic even more ridiculous because this is the second time.

If you look on the internet or real life you will rarely find anyone who actually admits that what they said is racist, unless they're a neo-Nazi and take pride in the fact that they're racist. Even when what they said was clearly racist or homophobic or anti-Semitic or whatever.

[WyattGwyon]

Einstein was a deist, a determinist and a drag on physics in the end.

Wondering about your basis for this. I think he was an atheist but is often mistaken for a deist because of the "God doesn't play dice with . . ." comment, which was metaphorical.

Yes he was a drag on physics just as Kepler was a drag on astronomy and Darwin was a drag on the life sciences and Beethoven was a drag on music.

[MarkBastable]

Originally Posted by G L Wilson
Einstein was a deist, a determinist and a drag on physics in the end.




Yes he was a drag on physics just as Kepler was a drag on astronomy and Darwin was a drag on the life sciences and Beethoven was a drag on music.

You're rather implying that GL should expand on that statement, in order to give the rest of us some considered insight into what the hell he meant. GL doesn't do that. He expects us to divine the truth encapsulated in his cryptic Delphic utterances, and if we can't, it's our failure and our loss.

[G L Wilson]

Einstein was such a dumb dogmatist in the end, he was a drag.

[WyattGwyon]

Originally Posted by G L Wilson
Einstein was a deist, a determinist and a drag on physics in the end.

You're rather implying that GL should expand on that statement, in order to give the rest of us some considered insight into what the hell he meant. GL doesn't do that. He expects us to divine the truth encapsulated in his cryptic Delphic utterances, and if we can't, it's our failure and our loss.

Yes Mark, to respond at all was a mistake, obviously. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic: In a lapse of judgment you kick a dog and then realize it is willing to suffer any indignity for the sake of the attention it craves.

[The Atheist]

Einstein was such a dumb dogmatist in the end, he was a drag.

We are so privileged to have you here.

The rest of us, poor deluded lot that we are, probably agree with Time magazine's estimation of Einstein as the Man of the entire 20th Century, when in fact, he was just another dunce.

[G L Wilson]

We are so privileged to have you here.

The rest of us, poor deluded lot that we are, probably agree with Time magazine's estimation of Einstein as the Man of the entire 20th Century, when in fact, he was just another dunce.

Was that the same magazine that had Adolf Hitler as man of the year once?

[cl154576]

Was that the same magazine that had Adolf Hitler as man of the year once?

Yes, and Stalin twice.
Maybe you would like to be on their cover as well?

[G L Wilson]

Yes, and Stalin twice.
Maybe you would like to be on their cover as well?

No, thanks.

[The Atheist]

Was that the same magazine that had Adolf Hitler as man of the year once?

Godwined.

A quote attributed to Einstein springs to mind:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity."






"And I'm not sure about the the universe."

[G L Wilson]

Godwined.

A quote attributed to Einstein springs to mind:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity."






"And I'm not sure about the the universe."

Godwin's Law is a silly law made even sillier by the Internet.