Scandinavian & Icelandic Literature

[irinmisfit92]

Recently, I've come across so many books from Scandinavian countries lying in bookstores because of the amazing success that comes about from The Girl trilogy by the late Stieg Larsson. I've grown to really love Scandinavian movies and also books; especially its crime fiction and well-known vampire (not like Twilight, of course) novel titled Let The Right One In by John Ajvide Lindqvist.

Does anyone here also have the same passion as I do? I don't know many people who actually love Scandinavian literature because most people here are too busy reading either Japanese, Indian, American, or British literature.

I'm also grateful if you can recommend more authors from Scandinavian countries. John Ajvide Lindqvist is one of my favourite authors and his writing is extremely powerful. :coolgleamA:

[Lokasenna]

I haven't read much contemporary stuff, but I'm an expert on medieval Norse-Icelandic literature. Ever since I discovered it early on in my undergraduate days, I've been hopelessly drawn to it. There is something about the cold, bleak north that has always inspired people to imagine and to write.

Did you know that Icelanders are statistically the most artistic people? 1 in 10 Icelanders will publish at least one book in their life - that's a really amazing statistic.

The modern Scandinavian stuff, I think, has always been popular here in Europe, and certainly the medieval material is growing in popular appeal: there are quite a few sagas and things on the shelves of my local bookshops. They're also producing some really good translations at the moment; Penguin Classics have just published Andy Orchard's new translation of the Poetic Edda, albeit with a bloody silly title - people are obviously buying!

Let the Right One In was a great film too, though I don't think I've seen many other Scandinavian films, unless things like Wallander and The Killing can count as such?

[Charles Darnay]

I as well came across the Icelandic sagas in my undergrad and fell in love with them. My first was Laxdaela Saga. My favourite is probably Egil's Saga.

[Calidore]

I've read a few of the sagas and enjoyed them. One of the intros had a great line about how most of the Icelandic sagas can be summed up in four words: "Farmers come to blows."

[Intuition]

Recently, I've come across so many books from Scandinavian countries lying in bookstores because of the amazing success that comes about from The Girl trilogy by the late Stieg Larsson. I've grown to really love Scandinavian movies and also books; especially its crime fiction and well-known vampire (not like Twilight, of course) novel titled Let The Right One In by John Ajvide Lindqvist.

Does anyone here also have the same passion as I do? I don't know many people who actually love Scandinavian literature because most people here are too busy reading either Japanese, Indian, American, or British literature.

I'm also grateful if you can recommend more authors from Scandinavian countries. John Ajvide Lindqvist is one of my favourite authors and his writing is extremely powerful. :coolgleamA:

The Icelandic are exceptionally artistic. They've had a large body of artistic output for such a small country. Regarding their literature and authors:

Halldór Laxness (A contemporary genius. I recommend Independent People.)
Knut Hamsun
Henrik Ibsen

The rest are archaic works, mostly sagas:

Poetic Edda
Prose Edda (Snorri Sturluson)
Njal's Saga
Egil's Saga
Laxdœla saga


Let the Right One In was a great film too, though I don't think I've seen many other Scandinavian films, unless things like Wallander and The Killing can count as such?

If you're interested in Scandinavian films then there are only two filmmakers to watch: Ingmar Bergman and Carl Dreyer.

For Bergman, I recommend:
Persona
Seventh Seal
Wild Strawberries
Fanny and Alexander
Cries and Whispers

For Dreyer, I recommend:
Ordet
Gertrud
Vampyr

(if you have absolute tolerance, and are able to watch a silent film-- Passion of Joan of Arc is by far the greatest out of these Scandinavian films)

If more are needed, I may provide.

[mortalterror]

Did you know that Icelanders are statistically the most artistic people? 1 in 10 Icelanders will publish at least one book in their life - that's a really amazing statistic.

How are they doing that? Is there massive self-publishing going on? Do people make ten copies down at the kinkos and then pass their book around among friends? I don't know how commercial publishing could sustain that kind of output. There are neither stores big enough to house all the books, or enough people buying massive quantities of books to justify that kind of output. In a population of 300,000, there can't be 30,000 people who know how to write entertaining fiction. How many of those counted are just gardening, cookbooks, or people's blogs? I doubt you'll be getting a lot of Par Lagerkvists, Isak Dinesens, or Henrik Ibsens out of that crop.

[TheFifthElement]

I echo the recommendation of Halldor Laxness, particularly Independent People and World Light. Also Knut Hamsun - Hunger is one of the strangest, most powerful and disturbing books I've ever read, and Pan is pretty good too. Tove Jansson is also excellent; beyond the Moomintrolls her fiction for adults is also good. I recently read The True Deceiver and loved it.

Never read any of the crime stuff, so can't really comment on that though I hear Henning Mankell is good. If he's Scandinavian that is, I'm not too sure about that.

[Lokasenna]

How are they doing that? Is there massive self-publishing going on? Do people make ten copies down at the kinkos and then pass their book around among friends? I don't know how commercial publishing could sustain that kind of output. There are neither stores big enough to house all the books, or enough people buying massive quantities of books to justify that kind of output. In a population of 300,000, there can't be 30,000 people who know how to write entertaining fiction. How many of those counted are just gardening, cookbooks, or people's blogs? I doubt you'll be getting a lot of Par Lagerkvists, Isak Dinesens, or Henrik Ibsens out of that crop.

To be honest, I don't know. I read it in an ethnographic survey of Icelandic culture. I suspect that probably does include gardening books, cookbooks, and so far. I seem to remember it mentioning that poetry was popular. Quite a few of them will be academic books, as the Icelanders have an amazing educational system, with a high proportion of them going through university.

It also said that loads of Icelanders have other artistic habits - painting, photography, music e.t.c.

[Delarge]

I am Scandinavian (Danish) so naturally I've read a fair share of Scandinavian books (If you are Danish you should also be able to read and understand Swedish and Norwegian - the three languages are very similar).

I don't know if I can help you since I don't like the Scandinavian crime novel. However, during our history there have been produced quite some literature worth reading.

As several have mentioned the Poetic and Prose Edda are really beautiful.

If you are going to get into Scandinavian works then you cannot neglect Henrik Ibsen (Norwegian), August Strindberg (Swedish) and Hans Christian Andersen (Danish). They are brilliant. In my humble (and biased) opinion Ibsen deserves comparison to Shakespeare.

Other writers considered classics of Danish Literature are nobel laureates Henrik Pontoppidan (Lykke-Per is a great novel) and Johannes V. Jensen (Kongens Fald). Martin Andersen Nexøs novels "Pelle the Conquerer" and "Ditte, Daughter of Man" are amazing novels aswell.

A lot of our decent contemporary writers suffer from being published in Danish instead of English. Only novels expected to sell well are translated into English for a broader audience. This favours the crime novels instead of our really interesting novels. We do have some interesting contemporary authors in my opinion which includes Morten Ramsland (Doghead), Helle Helle, Svend Aage Madsen and my favorite the late Dan Turell. I don't know how many of them have been translated into English.

Jan Guillous (Swedish) "Ondskan" is really great and so is the movie "Evil". He has also written some crime/spy novels, but I don't know is they ae any good.

For clarification: Scandinavia in a strict sence is only comprised of Denmark, Norway and Sweden. The Nordic Countries are Denmark (with the Faroe Islands and Greenland), Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland.

@Intuition: I disagree that Bergman and Dreyer are the only filmmakers worth seeing. Lars von Trier and Thomas Vinterberg first strike my mind. Actually I think Danish movies have a very high standard (higher than our literature) and there are tons of them to see.
The Swedish movie ****ing Åmål (in English "Show Me Love") is a new classic and really captures the Scandinavian vibe imo.

[Lokasenna]

Ooh, I just remembered...

If you'll forgive a bit of shameless self-promotion, I posted my own translation of the eddic poem Völuspá here on Lit-Net last year. Might be of interest if anyone hasn't looked at Old Norse mythological poetry before. I can promise that the translation is more accurate than any currently published one - I was very careful.

Here's the link:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57344

[Intuition]

@Intuition: I disagree that Bergman and Dreyer are the only filmmakers worth seeing. Lars von Trier and Thomas Vinterberg first strike my mind. Actually I think Danish movies have a very high standard (higher than our literature) and there are tons of them to see.
The Swedish movie ****ing Åmål (in English "Show Me Love") is a new classic and really captures the Scandinavian vibe imo.

I find it comical that you happened to only mention two directors who have made their masterpieces in the 1990s. Their works are definitely worth-while watching for the sake of discovering Scandinavian Cinema in modern day; but the works of Dreyer and Bergman are immortal. You may as well be comparing Shakespeare to Tennessee Williams. I don't disagree that von Trier and Vinterberg are worth watching if you happen to be biased to Scandinavian Cinema and completely disregard the wealth of Chinese Cinema in the 1990s.

May I assume that you haven't watched Dreyer's work? Critics do not disagree with me in this sense.

http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_top200directors.htm

Hopefully my argument did not sound excessively offensive. Again, what I merely meant to say, was: if you were to ever watch two filmmakers of Scandinavia, these two should be it, and they are enough.

I did not mean that Scandinavia "only has" two filmmakers, but then again, critics would not disagree with me either in saying that-- since these modern filmmakers of Scandinavia have lived in the shadows of their ancestors.

[OrphanPip]

If you are going to get into Scandinavian works then you cannot neglect Henrik Ibsen (Norwegian), August Strindberg (Swedish) and Hans Christian Andersen (Danish). They are brilliant. In my humble (and biased) opinion Ibsen deserves comparison to Shakespeare.


I wouldn't compare Ibsen to Shakespeare, because of how different they are. However, Ibsen is easily the most important 19th century playwright in the West.

[irinmisfit92]

I haven't read much contemporary stuff, but I'm an expert on medieval Norse-Icelandic literature. Ever since I discovered it early on in my undergraduate days, I've been hopelessly drawn to it. There is something about the cold, bleak north that has always inspired people to imagine and to write.

Did you know that Icelanders are statistically the most artistic people? 1 in 10 Icelanders will publish at least one book in their life - that's a really amazing statistic.

The modern Scandinavian stuff, I think, has always been popular here in Europe, and certainly the medieval material is growing in popular appeal: there are quite a few sagas and things on the shelves of my local bookshops. They're also producing some really good translations at the moment; Penguin Classics have just published Andy Orchard's new translation of the Poetic Edda, albeit with a bloody silly title - people are obviously buying!

Let the Right One In was a great film too, though I don't think I've seen many other Scandinavian films, unless things like Wallander and The Killing can count as such?

That's interesting :D I feel that most Europeans are inherently artistic though hehe. Which part of Europe do you come from?

Oooh cool is Andy Orchard Swedish or something? I shall research on him. I've never seen his name around here in my local bookstore.

YES love the movie :D I've seen Wallander, but I've never heard of The Killing. They do count. Wallander's really good; similar to the books.

[irinmisfit92]

The Icelandic are exceptionally artistic. They've had a large body of artistic output for such a small country. Regarding their literature and authors:

Halldór Laxness (A contemporary genius. I recommend Independent People.)
Knut Hamsun
Henrik Ibsen

The rest are archaic works, mostly sagas:

Poetic Edda
Prose Edda (Snorri Sturluson)
Njal's Saga
Egil's Saga
Laxdœla saga



If you're interested in Scandinavian films then there are only two filmmakers to watch: Ingmar Bergman and Carl Dreyer.

For Bergman, I recommend:
Persona
Seventh Seal
Wild Strawberries
Fanny and Alexander
Cries and Whispers

For Dreyer, I recommend:
Ordet
Gertrud
Vampyr

(if you have absolute tolerance, and are able to watch a silent film-- Passion of Joan of Arc is by far the greatest out of these Scandinavian films)

If more are needed, I may provide.

Thanks a lot for the recommendations! I've seen Fanny och Alexander. It wasn't my type of movie but it was indeed very good and it was a total classic. I want to watch movies by Akira Kurosawa because he and Bergman are considered two of the few greatest movie directors in history.

I can watch a silent movie but I don't think I can withstand Joan of Arc XD

[Calidore]

Dreyer's Vampyr isn't a silent film, but may as well be, and it's excellent. Bonus: Criterion (finally!) released a spiffy new remastering recently.

[Lokasenna]

That's interesting I feel that most Europeans are inherently artistic though hehe. Which part of Europe do you come from?

Much as I would love to claim to be Icelandic, I'm actually Welsh. But certainly, Europe's artistic output over the centuries has been immense - I don't think there's anywhere else that can match it in bulk or breadth.


Oooh cool is Andy Orchard Swedish or something? I shall research on him. I've never seen his name around here in my local bookstore.

Andy is English, actually - but he's currently (and has been for quite a while) a professor of medieval literature at Toronto University. He's a major scholar in Old Norse, Old English and Celtic. I've only met him briefly, but he seemed a nice guy. His translation of the Edda is rather good as well - he's mainted the structure of the poetry (no mean feat!), and manged to make the transltion very accurate despite this, and very readable. If you're after a copy, Penguin Classics have published it as The Elder Edda: A Book of Viking Lore. I'm prepared to give it my personal seal of approval as the best published translation going.


YES love the movie I've seen Wallander, but I've never heard of The Killing. They do count. Wallander's really good; similar to the books.

If you like Wallander, then you'll like The Killing as well. It's a Danish drama covering a murder investigation. The BBC is currently re-showing it, so if anyone has iPlayer access it is well worth a watch!

[Intuition]

Dreyer's Vampyr isn't a silent film, but may as well be, and it's excellent. Bonus: Criterion (finally!) released a spiffy new remastering recently.

Hm, I still wouldn't categorize it as a silent. It was quite an experimental sound process, but the sound added a great deal to the atmosphere.

[Intuition]

Thanks a lot for the recommendations! I've seen Fanny och Alexander. It wasn't my type of movie but it was indeed very good and it was a total classic. I want to watch movies by Akira Kurosawa because he and Bergman are considered two of the few greatest movie directors in history.

I can watch a silent movie but I don't think I can withstand Joan of Arc XD

Kurosawa and Bergman are easily some of the greater foreign directors, but I don't think I would say they are the two greatest. Welles is easily the greatest director in the history of Cinema, and his masterpiece is often cherished by critics as being the greatest, which I do not disagree with-- although he is not a foreign director (from my point of view). My favorite foreign director is Federico Fellini.

[Mr.lucifer]

Kurosawa and Bergman are easily some of the greater foreign directors, but I don't think I would say they are the two greatest. Welles is easily the greatest director in the history of Cinema, and his masterpiece is often cherished by critics as being the greatest, which I do not disagree with-- although he is not a foreign director (from my point of view). My favorite foreign director is Federico Fellini.

There is not such thing as a greatest director in cinema. I don't see how citizen kane is as great as films like Seven Samurai, Winter Light, etc. Hell, for greatest american director, I said that John Cassevettes woukd earn that title.

[Idril]

I love Scandinavian literature. I haven't read a great deal of Finnish or Danish lit, it's not a conscious choice, it just seems to work out that way for some reason. I have read quite a few of the Sagas, my favorites being Njal's Saga and Egil's Saga and I also want to add my name to those recommending Halldór Laxness, his is simply, brilliant. A few more author names to add to the 'check out' list would be Hjalmer Söderberg, Selma Lagerlöf, Pär Lagerkvist, Tarjei Vesaas and Agnar Mykle.

[Vonny]

I realized that I hear foreign languages spoken when I watch foreign movies.

I didn't realize that Pelle the Conqueror was a novel. I've seen the movie, and it was really good.

Two other movies that were exceptional were The Ox (Swedish 1991) and Flight of the Eagle (Swedish 1982). These two movies I got from my library on VHS. It’s too bad these movies haven't been put on DVD when we've been inundated with Hollywood trash. Both of these movies are set in the past. The Ox shows the detriment of Christianity when it's been imposed on people. A man desperately kills his landlord’s ox to feed his starving family; he’s then overcome by guilt and ends up doing time in jail. His wife could only think of their guilt, even though her husband was simply trying to feed his family. Flight of the Eagle is a true story about explorers to the North Pole who end up dying one by one, until one man is left alone. Flight of the Eagle is my favorite Scandinavian movie. It’s very quiet and stark and eerie. I hope someday it will be on DVD.

One of the most disturbing movies I've ever seen was Lilya 4-Ever (Swedish 2002). It was so realistic and tragic. I almost want to say that I don't recommend it, but at the same time I think everyone should see it.

Then there's Babette's Feast (Danish 1987). It was interesting, but I don't remember it well, so it must not have made much impact on me. I think it was a women's film.

Anyway, these foreign films are so superior to what Hollywood churns out, because they are very original and they are devoid of the nauseating Hollywood Spin. They showed me a side of life I hadn't seen before, and they show the horrors of real life. In the end the characters usually crash and burn, or they are left with a questionable fate.

I discovered that Andy Orchard's book is even available on Kindle. I picked up my Kindle tonight and figured out how it works. I had mostly tossed it aside since it arrived about two months ago. It is nice to just download a book, rather than wait for a week or two to get it from Amazon, especially since our main bookstore, Borders, is going out of business right now, which is so sad.

[Delarge]

I find it comical that you happened to only mention two directors who have made their masterpieces in the 1990s. Their works are definitely worth-while watching for the sake of discovering Scandinavian Cinema in modern day; but the works of Dreyer and Bergman are immortal. You may as well be comparing Shakespeare to Tennessee Williams. I don't disagree that von Trier and Vinterberg are worth watching if you happen to be biased to Scandinavian Cinema and completely disregard the wealth of Chinese Cinema in the 1990s.

May I assume that you haven't watched Dreyer's work? Critics do not disagree with me in this sense.

http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_top200directors.htm

Hopefully my argument did not sound excessively offensive. Again, what I merely meant to say, was: if you were to ever watch two filmmakers of Scandinavia, these two should be it, and they are enough.

I did not mean that Scandinavia "only has" two filmmakers, but then again, critics would not disagree with me either in saying that-- since these modern filmmakers of Scandinavia have lived in the shadows of their ancestors.

Well, I don't know the first thing about film as an art form. I know of Dreyer, but haven't seen any of his works - maybe I should. I am guilty in having mostly seen the newer films from the last two decades.

I read your first post as if Bergman and Dreyer were the only two film makers that didn't make complete garbage. My point was that there are definately movies worth watching for the average person who just want to see some Scandinavian movies. Movies of the same quality as the ones being produced in Hollywood.

Bille August has made some good movies to.



I wouldn't compare Ibsen to Shakespeare, because of how different they are. However, Ibsen is easily the most important 19th century playwright in the West.
No I wouldn't compare them either in terms of theme/content. I just meant that Ibsen deserves to be compared to Shakespeare in greatness.

Has anyone mentioned Astrid Lindgren yet?

[Vonny]

Movies of the same quality as the ones being produced in Hollywood.

:lol:

There's Lasse Hallstrom. (2 dots over the "o") He's made Hollywood films. An Unfinished Life is good. I didn't like the woman who played in it, but the relationship between the men, played by Robert Redford and Morgan Freeman, was original. I also liked the way Redford disciplined the little girl, his granddaughter, in the movie. You don't see that often - a child being disciplined properly. Right now I can't remember too much about it, other than the way Redford disciplined the little girl.

Oops I have to edit. I shouldn't have called her that. Sleep deprivation again.

[LitNetIsGreat]

If you like Wallander, then you'll like The Killing as well. It's a Danish drama covering a murder investigation. The BBC is currently re-showing it, so if anyone has iPlayer access it is well worth a watch!

Thanks Loka. I've just watched the first episode and thought it was pretty good.

[Emil Miller]

Kurosawa and Bergman are easily some of the greater foreign directors, but I don't think I would say they are the two greatest. Welles is easily the greatest director in the history of Cinema, and his masterpiece is often cherished by critics as being the greatest, which I do not disagree with-- although he is not a foreign director (from my point of view). My favorite foreign director is Federico Fellini.

Kurusowa and Bergman obviously rate highly in world cinematic terms and I would say that they should be considered among the greatest, but I would agree that Welles' Citizen Kane is, as you say, the greatest film ever made. The camerawork is spellbinding and the screenplay and acting are unlikely to be equalled. It is less the story of W.R.Hearst than an allegory on America itself and its scope is, and I suspect will remain, unrivalled. Having said that, I don't think that Welles could be considered the best director, because after Kane he had nowhere to go but down and, although he made some excellent films it's not possible to reach the pinnacle twice. In my view, the title of best director belongs to Federico Fellini for a long run of superb films, but David Lean runs him close.

[Mr.lucifer]

Meh, I'd say Citizen Kane isn't as good as Ozu's Tokyo story, Cassavette's Faces, or kiarostami's the wind will carry us.

[Helga]

what an interesting thread. I can tell you that here on the ice there are so many book publishers it's hard to count them all. there are a few big and many small but many people also start off by publishing on their own and then later are contacted by bigger publishers. There are many books of poetry here and novels but also of course cookbooks and such.

If you want contemporary I know that Guðbergur Bergsson has been translated to many languages and of course the crime novelist Arnaldur Indriðason but I am not a big fan of his though many here are. My favorite is Thor Vilhjálmsson he died this summer in a very tragic way, he was really good. Of course Halldór Laxness is the most famous author from the ice and I have enjoyed most of what I have read, 'Independent people' is a great novel. Also Einar Kárason and his 'Angels of the universe' is one of the best books I have read and the movie was really good.

I see many here have read Snorra Edda and Egils saga and all of them. Here we start reading them in school around 12 years of age and continue all through school. There is much focus on literature here and even though not everybody read for fun the 'biggest' icelandic novels and sagas are read in school.

[Mr.lucifer]

I recommend Tarjei Vesaas. He's considered the greatest post-war writer of norway. He's been described as the literary equivalent of Bergman.

[Emil Miller]

Meh, I'd say Citizen Kane isn't as good as Ozu's Tokyo story, Cassavette's Faces, or kiarostami's the wind will carry us.

Of course, it's a matter of opinion but people who are closely connected with the film industry appear to think otherwise. I agree that Tokyo Story is one of the best films ever made.

Citizen Kane by Orson Welles, about the life of newspaper tycoon Charles Foster Kane, is the best film ever made, according to a global critics' poll.
The poll of international critics and directors was carried out by the British Film Institute's Sight and Sound magazine.

Both critics and directors put Citizen Kane at the top after being asked to name their top 10 films.

Critics' top 10
1. Citizen Kane (Welles) 1941
2. Vertigo (Hitchcock) 1958
3. La Regle du Jeu (Renoir) 1939
4. The Godfather I and II (Coppola) 1972, 1974
5. Tokyo Story (Ozu) 1953
6. 2001: A Space Odyssey (Kubrick) 1968
7. Sunrise (Murnau) 1927
8. Battleship Potemkin (Eisenstein) 1925
9. 8 1/2 (Fellini) 1963
10. Singin' in the Rain (Kelly, Donen) 1951

It is said to be the most innovative film of all time, and many of the tricks used by Welles - who directed, wrote and starred in the film - are now commonplace in modern movies.

The film famously revolves around Kane's dying word - "Rosebud" - and a journalist's attempts to discover its meaning, which reveals his subject's life in a series of flashbacks.

The movie has topped the Sight and Sound critics' poll for the last four decades.

[LitNetIsGreat]

what an interesting thread. I can tell you that here on the ice there are so many book publishers it's hard to count them all. there are a few big and many small but many people also start off by publishing on their own and then later are contacted by bigger publishers. There are many books of poetry here and novels but also of course cookbooks and such.

If you want contemporary I know that Guðbergur Bergsson has been translated to many languages and of course the crime novelist Arnaldur Indriðason but I am not a big fan of his though many here are. My favorite is Thor Vilhjálmsson he died this summer in a very tragic way, he was really good. Of course Halldór Laxness is the most famous author from the ice and I have enjoyed most of what I have read, 'Independent people' is a great novel. Also Einar Kárason and his 'Angels of the universe' is one of the best books I have read and the movie was really good.

I see many here have read Snorra Edda and Egils saga and all of them. Here we start reading them in school around 12 years of age and continue all through school. There is much focus on literature here and even though not everybody read for fun the 'biggest' icelandic novels and sagas are read in school.

I was just quickly leafing through some of those recommendations (thanks) and Independent People does indeed sound very good and has good reviews. I might give this one a go.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Independent-People-Halldor-Laxness/dp/009952712X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314301556&sr=8-1

[Idril]

Also Einar Kárason and his 'Angels of the universe' is one of the best books I have read and the movie was really good.

That's not a name I've heard before, I'll have to check him out.



I was just quickly leafing through some of those recommendations (thanks) and Independent People does indeed sound very good and has good reviews. I might give this one a go.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Independent-People-Halldor-Laxness/dp/009952712X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314301556&sr=8-1

Yes, do! You will not be disappointed.

[Intuition]

I read your first post as if Bergman and Dreyer were the only two film makers that didn't make complete garbage.


Ah, I didn't mean it that way. I only meant that if one were to only watch two, then they would be those two.


Having said that, I don't think that Welles could be considered the best director, because after Kane he had nowhere to go but down and, although he made some excellent films it's not possible to reach the pinnacle twice. In my view, the title of best director belongs to Federico Fellini for a long run of superb films, but David Lean runs him close.

You're right, Welles only did go "down" from Kane, but that doesn't matter, since no director could ever reach that point. Though, Citizen Kane was Welles with a mastery of content and form, but that isn't to say that Welles never made a film with excellent form ever again. Fellini's 8 1/2 is superb, although it is no Citizen Kane, whereas Fellini's La Dolce Vita is a fountain of memorable content, its formative aspects are elementary. Take, for example, Welles' Touch of Evil... it's a mess of content, but formatively speaking it is on equal levels with 8 1/2. The opening crane shot is the most memorable shot in cinema. It is as influential as the Vertigo Zoom.

This happened a great deal with Fellini's oeuvre before 8 1/2. Post 8 1/2 Fellini ended up having some of the greatest art direction of all of cinema.
In Juliet of the Spirits his art direction began to show, just shortly after he was finished taking LSD for 8 1/2. It allowed his career to flourish in colour, but Fellini never had a sense of framing, even though his mise en scene was glorious.

Welles, on the other hand, would make Magnificent Ambersons after Kane. A film superb in content, superb in form, and superb in acting. There is nothing wrong with the film, other than the fact that it just did not contain Welles' original ending, which would have made the film far too gloomy, as studio execs. claimed.

I would never agree with David Lean running Fellini close, let alone Welles. I would agree more closely to what critics usually claim to being the old masters. These evidently run something along these lines (in no particular order).

Orson Welles
Alfred Hitchcock
Federico Fellini
John Ford
Jean Renoir
Stanley Kubrick
Akira Kurosawa
Ingmar Bergman
Jean-Luc Goddard
Carl Theodor Dreyer
Sergei Eisenstein
F.W. Murnau
Yasujiro Ozu
Luis Bunuel
Francis Ford Copolla

Alfred Hitchcock would (in my book) be easily a greater director than Federico Fellini as well, but still would be second to Welles. Hitchcock (if only) was one of the most formulaic directors. His work-style influenced the greater majority of Hollywood today. Suspense was never the same after it was done by Hitchcock. He is homaged in the most horrid of films, and the most best of modern films. His oeuvre has had a profound effect on Cinematic history, from influencing the most avant-garde of the French New Wave, to influencing such modern directors as Tarantino. Taking one scene off the top of my head; remember the moment when Bruce Willis' character runs into Marsellus Wallace at the cross-walk? That's a homage to Hitchcock's Psycho, when Janet Leigh runs into her boss at the cross-walk.

I once heard how Sarris claimed that Hitchcock was the mathematical combination of what would happen if Murnau and Eisenstein merged together into one director. If the two greatest silent film directors were to merge together into one director, what else would this director be than one of the greatest filmmakers of all time?


Meh, I'd say Citizen Kane isn't as good as Ozu's Tokyo story, Cassavette's Faces, or kiarostami's the wind will carry us.

Do you really expect me to respond to that intellectually? Tokyo Story is easily one of the ten greatest films of all time, that I will not doubt; but that's as far as it goes.

As for the two other films you mentioned. I hope you did not mean for me to take that seriously.

Firstly, both of those films mentioned are not even the best films of the directors who made them. In Cassavette's case, it would most likely be a Woman Under the Influence. In Kiarostami's it would most likely be Close-Up. That being said, since you claim those are the greatest and they aren't even the greatest of the directors who made them, I will just assume that there is no spot higher than 'greatest' which there would have to be had those two films been the 'greatest' ever made.


Both critics and directors put Citizen Kane at the top after being asked to name their top 10 films.


I do not disagree with that poll one bit, after all, I've had a subscription to their magazine for decades. Of course, I think it is rather unfair to allow both Godfather I and Godfather II to compile their votes, otherwise they would be closer to what they are on TSPDT.

http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_top100films.htm

[Mr.lucifer]

I didn't meant to imply that those were the greatest films, I was just using them as examples. Really for me, I think personal top 10 lists of certain critics and directors are far more interesting than a list compiled out of multiple opinions of experts and saying this is the definitive list.

Lists like that to me are boring and limiting. In my opinion, the lists of each person of the last sight and sound poll was more fascinating than the grand poll. Btw, you forgot to list Luis Bunuel, Kenji Mizoguchi, Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, and satyajit ray.

[Intuition]

I didn't meant to imply that those were the greatest films, I was just using them as examples. Really for me, I think personal top 10 lists of certain critics and directors are far more interesting than a list compiled out of multiple opinions of experts and saying this is the definitive list.

Lists like that to me are boring and limiting. In my opinion, the lists of each person of the last sight and sound poll was more fascinating than the grand poll. Btw, you forgot to list Luis Bunuel, Kenji Mizoguchi, Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, and satyajit ray.

I don't disagree with you, those were great films that you listed, undoubtedly. Each of those films are part of a great director's oeuvre. As for Satyajit Ray, I'm not sure if he would belong with those directors, unless of course if you were to include a director such as Truffaut as well; as for the others, you're right, I can't believe I forgot Bunuel-- the father of surrealism (in film). I just re-watched a great deal of his oeuvre last month, so I'm surprised that I did not remember him. As for Mizoguchi, he is undoubtedly a genius, but I would not put him on the same level as Kurosawa and Ozu. If I were to start mentioning directors as Keaton and Chaplain then Griffith, Hawks and many more would need a mention as well, I was just trying to limit it down to a definitive few. Truthfully, I could probably add at least around ten or so more directors to that list, although I didn't want to flood the forums with names.

On another note, I don't believe any of those lists are actually to be held as being "definitive." TSPDT and Sight and Sound have vastly different lists, but they are both great as "guides" as to what to look into.

(Note: I'll add Bunuel to those, for sure).

[Mr.lucifer]

I have to admit my views on citizen kane were influence by the scholar, Ray carney, who has gained a following for his views on film.


Kane as Kitsch

Melodramatic mumbo-jumbo. Exuberant, gorgeous nonsense. Fun? Of course. A profound work of art? Hardly.

It takes more than bombastic rhetoric, gaudy visuals, and scenery-chewing performances to make a masterpiece.

Kane is an all-American triumph of style over substance. Welles is Kane–in a sense he couldn't have intended–substituting razzle-dazzle for truth and hoping no one notices the sleight of hand.

The movie is indistinguishable from the opera production within it: attempting to conceal the banality of its performances by wrapping them in a thousand layers of acoustic and visual processing.

Critics obviously enjoy being told what to think or they'd never sit still for the hammy acting, cartoon characterizations, tendentious photography, editorializing blockings, and absurdly grandiose (and annoyingly insistent) metaphors. This means this. That means that. Get it? Got it!

Everything's shifted one notch to the side of reality. It's all a metaphor. Wow. What an original idea. Don't you just love it when things are big and bloated with meaning? That's what art does. A big house symbolizes loneliness. A sled, the uprooting of your youth. That sure is profound. I sure learned a lot from that! Heavy. Pass the J, dude.

When will film studies grow up? Even Jedediah Leland, the opera reviewer in the film, knew better than to be taken in by Salaambo's empty reverberations.

My personal nominee (along with Psycho, 2001, The Godfather, and Chinatown) for one of the ten most over-rated American films of all time.

–Excerpted from Ray Carney's, "Citizen Kane on its Fiftieth Anniversary: The Greatest Movie Ever Made?" The Christian Science Monitor, Tuesday, April 30, 1991.




http://people.bu.edu/rcarney/carncult/orfilms.shtml

He is controversial for his dismissal of a lot of the acclaimed mainstream english language films and directors. But he is notable since he knew John Cassavettes before his death, found the original cuts of Shadows and Faces, and his championing of Independent film makers and contemporary foreign directors who don't recieve enough attention.

[Intuition]

He is controversial for his dismissal of a lot of the acclaimed mainstream english language films and directors. But he is notable since he knew John Cassavettes before his death, found the original cuts of Shadows and Faces, and his championing of Independent film makers and contemporary foreign directors who don't recieve enough attention.

I'm aware of that critic. I believe he has the complex which many amateur critics have: he attempts to be what he would call a "free-thinker," and by completely dis-acknowledging standard norms he attempts to make his views popular through controversy.

On another note, I would never take to mind a few sentences of what one critic says, than what Bazin filled a book with. I would recommend Bazin to you highly, if you have not already read him. If you already have, I am surprised you could take the views of Carney over him.

As for my views, I am not influenced by one single critic. I have noticed (from my times on IMDB) that many individuals are far too influenced by certain extremist critics when they view a film and "do not understand its stature."

I believe the correct thing to do in a case like this would be to say "why is it that critics see this film in this position?" than saying "since I cannot see why this film is in this position, I have to find others that agree with me." Chances are that when Carney was in the latter position, he could not find others that agreed with him, so he chose to make his on theory. Carney belongs to the field of critics who are extreme humanists, and do not care about formative techniques of film (which I believe every critic, director, and avid watcher of films should).

[Mr.lucifer]

Honestly, I had backlash of Kane before I discovered Carney. I don't take all what he says seriosuly. But I find his recommendations interesting. I think I will check out Bazin, Sorry for my foolishness earlier.

What do you mean by Extreme Humanists?

[Intuition]

Honestly, I had backlash of Kane before I discovered Carney. I don't take all what he says seriosuly. But I find his recommendations interesting. I think I will check out Bazin, Sorry for my foolishness earlier.

There isn't any need to apologize. You wouldn't be the first to hate Kane at first sight; many people did. Truthfully speaking, Welles is more of a director's director, or a critic's director, so it usually isn't surprising that a great deal of people dislike him. I was actually intrigued that you mentioned Kiarostami to begin with; he and Kieslowski are some of the greater directors of the 1990s.


What do you mean by Extreme Humanists?

This isn't necessarily an established term, but I refer to "extreme humanists" as the type of critic or director who is only interested in the humanistic aspects of a film. There is nothing wrong with humanism, but sometimes you'll hear responses such as, "I watched Citizen Kane the other day, and I couldn't understand the character Charles Foster Kane." By saying this they allude to the fact that they dislike the film because they find the character flawed. It's a common fallacy.

Of course, the archaic terms are "realists" and "formalists" but these terms are no longer used.

[Mr.lucifer]

I got that Charles foster kane was a complex character and a lonely man who was never happy since his childhood but for me, Citizen Kane wasn't as mindblowing as I expected it to be.

For me, Winter light was the first mindblowing film, even though I had already see wild strawberries and Seventh sea when it comes to Bergman's work.

[Intuition]

I got that Charles foster kane was a complex character and a lonely man who was never happy since his childhood but for me, Citizen Kane wasn't as mindblowing as I expected it to be.

For me, Winter light was the first mindblowing film, even though I had already see wild strawberries and Seventh sea when it comes to Bergman's work.

Well, the thing is. Citizen Kane is overwhelming in content in terms of influence. Most of its perfection lies in its form.

I don't deny Bergman being a great director, there are few I cherish above him; Welles just happens to be one of them. If you really enjoyed Winter Light (I did as well), then you will most likely enjoy the following of Bergman's work:

Persona
Fanny and Alexander
Cries and Whispers
The Silence
Sawdust and Tinsel
Smiles of a Summer Night

There are more, but I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

On another note, I would really recommend for you to re-watch Citizen Kane after some period of time, it's usually a remedy for films which one hates on the initial viewing.

[irinmisfit92]

I love Scandinavian literature. I haven't read a great deal of Finnish or Danish lit, it's not a conscious choice, it just seems to work out that way for some reason. I have read quite a few of the Sagas, my favorites being Njal's Saga and Egil's Saga and I also want to add my name to those recommending Halldór Laxness, his is simply, brilliant. A few more author names to add to the 'check out' list would be Hjalmer Söderberg, Selma Lagerlöf, Pär Lagerkvist, Tarjei Vesaas and Agnar Mykle.

Thanks for the recommendations I appreciate it! My local bookstore has some of the books by the authors mentioned so I'll check it out. I'm having exams and it's a pain in the ***. History killed me today >>"

[Vonny]

what an interesting thread. I can tell you that here on the ice there are so many book publishers it's hard to count them all. there are a few big and many small but many people also start off by publishing on their own and then later are contacted by bigger publishers. There are many books of poetry here and novels but also of course cookbooks and such.

If you want contemporary I know that Guðbergur Bergsson has been translated to many languages and of course the crime novelist Arnaldur Indriðason but I am not a big fan of his though many here are. My favorite is Thor Vilhjálmsson he died this summer in a very tragic way, he was really good. Of course Halldór Laxness is the most famous author from the ice and I have enjoyed most of what I have read, 'Independent people' is a great novel. Also Einar Kárason and his 'Angels of the universe' is one of the best books I have read and the movie was really good.

I see many here have read Snorra Edda and Egils saga and all of them. Here we start reading them in school around 12 years of age and continue all through school. There is much focus on literature here and even though not everybody read for fun the 'biggest' icelandic novels and sagas are read in school.

Thanks Helga. I think I'll get these. They sound interesting, and I think my brother will like them too. Amazon has used copies of Justice Undone, Angels of the Universe, and Independent People. Independent People is on Kindle but a used copy is cheaper and easier to share.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The Killing on i-player.


Thanks Loka. I've just watched the first episode and thought it was pretty good.

I'm on episode 4 now, it's brilliant, one of the best programmes of it's kind that I've seen for years. Great story and the acting is top notch.


Yes, do! You will not be disappointed.

Right, if I can't find it in town today I'll order it from Amazon when I get back. Thanks.

Edit:
Luckily I have managed to get hold of Independent People today and I've already started it. Thanks again.

Also, I am seriously addicted to The Killing (I forget the Danish title) superb TV. There is only a few days left of the early episodes on i-player so if you are interested get watching in now - sod and cat and dishes. Showing from episode 6 Sunday on BBC 4, 10.00pm. Quality stuff.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I'm about a third of the way through Independent People and I am enjoying it very much. It's clearly very well written and powerful stuff. I'm going to be stuck into tonight for a fair bit as well I think. Thanks again for the recommendations.

I have a little question which I'm curious about though, what is with the apparent Icelandic obsession with coffee? Every character in the book seems to go crazy for it, including a Minister who claims to drink 30 cups a day. Is this something just present in this book or is it a sort of national obsession? This is a genuine question thanks.

[Intuition]

http://chugginmccoffee.hubpages.com/hub/The-Coffee-Culture-of-Iceland

[Lokasenna]

The Killing on i-player.

I'm on episode 4 now, it's brilliant, one of the best programmes of it's kind that I've seen for years. Great story and the acting is top notch.

Also, I am seriously addicted to The Killing (I forget the Danish title) superb TV. There is only a few days left of the early episodes on i-player so if you are interested get watching in now - sod and cat and dishes. Showing from episode 6 Sunday on BBC 4, 10.00pm. Quality stuff.

I'll just add my voice to Neely's - The Killing is really amazing. When it originally aired, I only heard about it quite late on, and only managed to watch the first three episodes before the iPlayer pulled it off. I am now watching the reshowing, and like Neely I am hopelessly addicted. It is slow moving but brilliantly plotted and superbly acted.

[LitNetIsGreat]

http://chugginmccoffee.hubpages.com/hub/The-Coffee-Culture-of-Iceland

Thanks for the link, I didn't know about this. I had gathered that such must be so from the book but this clarity is great. Also, (from the link):


Local priests in Iceland also rely upon coffee consumption, even so much that they have developed ulcers from the overuse of Java over the years.

That fits with the fellow in the book. Maybe he wasn't exaggerating about the 30 cups?

Also:


Coffee houses became more popular in Iceland around 15 years ago, and many coffee shops serve both alcohol and coffee side-by-side. These are often called bar-bistros that serve elaborate coffee drinks, as well as cakes and pastries

I like that sound of that!!


One of the most well-liked coffee shops in Reykjavik opened in 1958 and is called Kaffi Moka. Since the opening day, the interior design has not changed one bit, but this coffee house operates with the first espresso machine from Italy used in the country of Iceland. Most of the customers in this coffee house are college students, artists, and intellectuals, which actually make up around 90% of the population of Iceland.

I don't quite get that. 90% of the population of Iceland are students, artists and intellectuals? Does that then back up what Loka posted early on? Interesting.


In Iceland, the locals take the time to truly savor and enjoy their brew.

Excellent, why not?


I'll just add my voice to Neely's - The Killing is really amazing. When it originally aired, I only heard about it quite late on, and only managed to watch the first three episodes before the iPlayer pulled it off. I am now watching the reshowing, and like Neely I am hopelessly addicted. It is slow moving but brilliantly plotted and superbly acted.

Absolutely. I have indoctrinated Mrs N into watching it as well and she is now as hooked as me.

[Intuition]

I don't quite get that. 90% of the population of Iceland are students, artists and intellectuals? Does that then back up what Loka posted early on? Interesting.

I wouldn't disagree; the most intelligent colleague I have ever known happened to be Icelandic.

[Emil Miller]

I don't quite get that. 90% of the population of Iceland are students, artists and intellectuals?

I don't get it either. Who's doing the work other than the remaining 10% ?

[LitNetIsGreat]

I don't get it either. Who's doing the work other than the remaining 10% ?

I don't know. I'm guessing that such is just a way of life for almost everyone. For example Bjartur the sheep farmer in Independent People is as rough as they come, but he goes about composing verse as easy as he guards his sheep. It's probably in the blood.

Edit: it must be all that coffee.

[irinmisfit92]

I'll just add my voice to Neely's - The Killing is really amazing. When it originally aired, I only heard about it quite late on, and only managed to watch the first three episodes before the iPlayer pulled it off. I am now watching the reshowing, and like Neely I am hopelessly addicted. It is slow moving but brilliantly plotted and superbly acted.

I absolutely envy the Europeans! I live in Asia where people don't give a **** about these kinds of things. TVs here don't really show British shows unless they're really famous. I had to download Skins and Misfits for myself; and they were really good. I've also downloaded The FIfth Woman, adapted from one of Henning Mankell's Wallander Series.

I'm going to download The Killing when I'm free from all the infernal exams I'm going to face real soon.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I'm thinking of getting the "Poetic and Prose Edda" as my next move into Scandinavian/Icelandic literature as this has been recommended twice (and seems the obvious root to take). Are there any recommened translations? What about the one below?

Thanks.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prose-Edda-Mythology-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140447555/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314753043&sr=8-1

[Idril]

I'm thinking of getting the "Poetic and Prose Edda" as my next move into Scandinavian/Icelandic literature as this has been recommended twice (and seems the obvious root to take). Are there any recommened translations? What about the one below?

Thanks.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prose-Edda-Mythology-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140447555/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314753043&sr=8-1

That's the one I have and I enjoyed it, in fact almost all of the sagas I've read have been from this publisher. As to the quality of the translation, I can't really speak but I can say I found it very readable and the notes and maps were very helpful.

[Lokasenna]

I'm thinking of getting the "Poetic and Prose Edda" as my next move into Scandinavian/Icelandic literature as this has been recommended twice (and seems the obvious root to take). Are there any recommened translations? What about the one below?

Thanks.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prose-Edda-Mythology-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140447555/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314753043&sr=8-1

Jesse's translation of the Prose Edda is good, but I would recommend Anthony Faulkes' translation over it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edda-Everyman-Anthony-Faulkes/dp/0460876163/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1314776510&sr=8-4

For an extra 30p, it's worth it; his translation is better than Jesse's, and just as fluidly readable. As for the Poetic Edda, I'll renew my recommendation for Andy Orchard's brand new translation:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elder-Edda-Viking-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140435859/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1314776510&sr=8-7

If that doesn't take your fancy, then there's always Carolyne Larrington's translation, but that has very few fans - not only is it clunky, it's full of dubious translations.

[billl]

I'm going to download The Killing when I'm free from all the infernal exams I'm going to face real soon.

Careful you don't download the U.S. remake of The Killing. The first 2-5 episodes were good, but the thing really fell apart, I haven't seen the original series but it simply MUST be better than the U.S. version.

The U.S. version actually got good ratings, and there's going to be a second season, but the show didn't seem to do as well with reviewers or TV-nerds or whatever. I'd recommend watching the original European version--why not, it's the one the other people in this thread are so strongly recommending--but there is a U.S. remake out there, and it might be the easier one to find online, and if so, just keep looking...

[LitNetIsGreat]

That's the one I have and I enjoyed it, in fact almost all of the sagas I've read have been from this publisher. As to the quality of the translation, I can't really speak but I can say I found it very readable and the notes and maps were very helpful.


Jesse's translation of the Prose Edda is good, but I would recommend Anthony Faulkes' translation over it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edda-Everyman-Anthony-Faulkes/dp/0460876163/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1314776510&sr=8-4

For an extra 30p, it's worth it; his translation is better than Jesse's, and just as fluidly readable. As for the Poetic Edda, I'll renew my recommendation for Andy Orchard's brand new translation:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elder-Edda-Viking-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140435859/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1314776510&sr=8-7

If that doesn't take your fancy, then there's always Carolyne Larrington's translation, but that has very few fans - not only is it clunky, it's full of dubious translations.

Thanks for the recommendations, spoilt for choice it seems. Does it make a difference if I start with the prose or the poetic Edda, of the two which is the most important work? Thanks.


Careful you don't download the U.S. remake of The Killing. The first 2-5 episodes were good, but the thing really fell apart, I haven't seen the original series but it simply MUST be better than the U.S. version.

The U.S. version actually got good ratings, and there's going to be a second season, but the show didn't seem to do as well with reviewers or TV-nerds or whatever. I'd recommend watching the original European version--why not, it's the one the other people in this thread are so strongly recommending--but there is a U.S. remake out there, and it might be the easier one to find online, and if so, just keep looking...

Absolutely. I've not seen the re-make but by all accounts it is a pale imitation. It seems crazy to me that what is near perfect production is re-made in the first place.

[Lokasenna]

Thanks for the recommendations, spoilt for choice it seems. Does it make a difference if I start with the prose or the poetic Edda, of the two which is the most important work? Thanks.

Hmm, that's a tricky one. The poetry predates the prose version (although the only manuscript we have of the poetry is actually later than Snorri's version), and is arguably purer - but the full enjoyment of the poems often requires a knowledge of the context in which the myth takes place.

Basically, the poems are as authentically pagan as you are going to get, though because they are fragmented and out of context they can be a little incoherent and puzzling. The Prose Edda is Snorri Sturluson's (a Christian man writing two and a half centuries after the conversion) attempt to make sense of it all, albeit with a definite Christian agenda.

Personally, I'd go with the poetry first and then go with Snorri's edda second. Though if you find yourself getting a bit lost and not really enjoying the poetry as a result, then switch over and see if that helps. That said, most editions of the Poetic Edda, including the two I've mentioned, contain useful explanatory notes about each poem.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Thanks for your help I think I'll go for those.

Also what about this mammoth thing? 848 pages of sagas!?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sagas-Icelanders-World/dp/0141000031/ref=pd_sim_b_5

Getting ahead of myself but that also sounds like core reading. It came up while browsing Amazon as they do.

[Lokasenna]

Thanks for your help I think I'll go for those.

Also what about this mammoth thing? 848 pages of sagas!?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sagas-Icelanders-World/dp/0141000031/ref=pd_sim_b_5

Getting ahead of myself but that also sounds like core reading. It came up while browsing Amazon as they do.

That's a very good volume as well - we use that for teaching the undergrads, and the translations in it are the best going. The thing to remember is that Old Norse literature is an absolutely huge corpus - the vast majority of which has never yet seen an editor, nevermind a translator. It is often broken down into 'eddas and sagas', but I've never liked that - it misses out reams of fantastic skaldic poetry and devotional poetry.

Sagas come in several genres: Íslendingasögur (Icelandic Family sagas), Konungasögur (Kings' sagas), Fornaldarsögur (Legendary or mythic sagas), Riddarasögur (Romance sagas, usually based on European romance), Samtíðarsögur (Contemporary sagas, like the family sagas but written within living memory of the events), Grœnlendingasögur (Greenlandic sagas) and assorted þættir (short tales).

That volume contains a good selection of the best Íslendingasögur, though unfortunately it does miss out Njáls saga, presumably for reasons of space, which is a masterpiece. They are very different from the mythological texts - they are written in realistic style, ostensibly depicting real events and real, historical people. They are fantastic pieces of literature, and well worth reading, but the style is very different. The Íslendingasögur have long been held as the most 'fashionable' sagas, and are thus the most read and written about; personally, I love the Fornaldarsögur, which fits in with my love of mythology, but they've always been viewed with suspicion.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Wow it does indeed sound a like huge body of work. This is not surprising I suppose, as it does seem that the Icelandic people have a deep cultural tradition of literature and mythology. I'll favourite that book as well then for later.

I'm about half way through the Laxness and very much enjoying it. There are some wonderful passages of sheer delight and it has a different feel to it over many other books. I've got two hours of blessed peace now with no disruptions so I'm going to get back to it in a minute.

Thanks again for your help.

[Idril]

I would second Lokasenna recommendation of The Sagas of the Icelanders. I have that as well and it has a wonderful selection of writings in there. It's a very good starting point.

I'm so glad you're enjoying Independent People. It's such an amazing book, like you said, unlike anything else. The language is so beautiful and the humor is such a wonderful surprise, so Scandinavian, dry and mischievous. It's a heavy book, so filled with despair but yet Laxness makes is a worthwhile journey and one you are glad you have taken when all is said and done.

[TheFifthElement]

I'm so glad you're enjoying Independent People. It's such an amazing book, like you said, unlike anything else. The language is so beautiful and the humor is such a wonderful surprise, so Scandinavian, dry and mischievous. It's a heavy book, so filled with despair but yet Laxness makes is a worthwhile journey and one you are glad you have taken when all is said and done.

It is an excellent book, very memorable. I think the incident with the gimmer is one of the most surprisingly disturbing scenes I've ever read. Laxness's style is both humorous and pitiless at the same time. World Light is another good one of his. Long, strange but beautiful and a bit sad too.

I am very tempted to buy the Sagas :D

[Idril]

World Light is another good one of his. Long, strange but beautiful and a bit sad too.


That one just about killed me, it was so sad. I still loved it, it is second only to Independent People in my list of favorite Laxness work but it was tough to get through at times because it was just so devastating.

[Calidore]

Thanks for your help I think I'll go for those.

Also what about this mammoth thing? 848 pages of sagas!?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sagas-Icelanders-World/dp/0141000031/ref=pd_sim_b_5

Getting ahead of myself but that also sounds like core reading. It came up while browsing Amazon as they do.

I've got that one and can add to the recommendation. However, it it a distillation of a bigger and more expensive work, so if you're a completist and have money to burn:

http://www.sagas.is/yfirlit.htm

[LitNetIsGreat]

I've got that one and can add to the recommendation. However, it it a distillation of a bigger and more expensive work, so if you're a completist and have money to burn:

http://www.sagas.is/yfirlit.htm

Thanks but I think the distillation of the 848 page saga is enough to be going on at the moment!:biggrin5: As well as the Eddas that are on the way. They look like beatiful books though.


I'm so glad you're enjoying Independent People. It's such an amazing book, like you said, unlike anything else. The language is so beautiful and the humor is such a wonderful surprise, so Scandinavian, dry and mischievous. It's a heavy book, so filled with despair but yet Laxness makes is a worthwhile journey and one you are glad you have taken when all is said and done.

Yes it's a great book. I would have normally finished it by now, or not far off, but as it seems more and more these days things are getting in the way of reading. I prefer to read in chunks of about 50 pages or so but I keep getting interrupted with 'things' to do and the like, it's a pain. Also when it gets past 11.00pm I just find that I can't read much these days at this time.


It is an excellent book, very memorable. I think the incident with the gimmer is one of the most surprisingly disturbing scenes I've ever read.

Yes it was very macabre episode. I thought the introductionary tale of the witch women myth effective in that it helped to carry this atmosphere into the story itself and is always present in the background like a fog.

And on The Killing front:willy_nilly:...

[Lokasenna]

I've got that one and can add to the recommendation. However, it it a distillation of a bigger and more expensive work, so if you're a completist and have money to burn:

http://www.sagas.is/yfirlit.htm

Yes, that's the best volume - but far too expensive for a student! I've got the library's copy out on permanent loan, but I'll wait till I have a wage before splashing out on this one!

That said, all the translations in the 848 page volume are taken from that collection - it is, in essence, a collection of highlights!

[irinmisfit92]

I just ordered Independent People and I'm so excited. I hope I will be able to read it by next month. :D

[LitNetIsGreat]

It is an excellent book, very memorable. I think the incident with the gimmer is one of the most surprisingly disturbing scenes I've ever read. Laxness's style is both humorous and pitiless at the same time. World Light is another good one of his. Long, strange but beautiful and a bit sad too.

I am very tempted to buy the Sagas :D

Yes they have called to me as well and so I have just ordered it.

Almost finished Independent People and still waiting for the Eddas to come.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I have decided to read some of the sagas before the Eddas. I'm currently about halfway through Egil's Saga and very much enjoying it. It's not taken me long to get used to the past tense oral type narration style and the way it delves into the history of every character; father, grandfather, next door neighbour etc, etc. At first it could have overwhelmed but it all comes back around and relates and you are left with a feeling of depth, and even a sense of nostalgia, for some of the main characters. It also of course gives a solid context to the stories.

I've found the violent and harsh way of life even more extreme than expected. Egil in particular is shockingly violent and not what I anticipated as the 'hero' of the tale. Of course I didn't come to Viking literature (is that the correct phrase or is Icelandic literature more accurate?) expecting tea parties and Pimms at six, but even so it is powerful and somewhat disturbing stuff. I've read Beowulf twice in different translations and expected something along those lines in terms of violence, but even he and his fellows come across as softies compared to Egil and co.

Maybe some of the other sagas aren't as violent, as surely Egil has to be one of the more extreme characters in the sagas?

(I'm also reading, and enjoying to my surprise alongside this, A Tale of Two Cities!)

[Lokasenna]

I have decided to read some of the sagas before the Eddas. I'm currently about halfway through Egil's Saga and very much enjoying it. It's not taken me long to get used to the past tense oral type narration style and the way it delves into the history of every character; father, grandfather, next door neighbour etc, etc. At first it could have overwhelmed but it all comes back around and relates and you are left with a feeling of depth, and even a sense of nostalgia, for some of the main characters. It also of course gives a solid context to the stories.

I've found the violent and harsh way of life even more extreme than expected. Egil in particular is shockingly violent and not what I anticipated as the 'hero' of the tale. Of course I didn't come to Viking literature (is that the correct phrase or is Icelandic literature more accurate?) expecting tea parties and Pimms at six, but even so it is powerful and somewhat disturbing stuff. I've read Beowulf twice in different translations and expected something along those lines in terms of violence, but even he and his fellows come across as softies compared to Egil and co.

Maybe some of the other sagas aren't as violent, as surely Egil has to be one of the more extreme characters in the sagas?

(I'm also reading, and enjoying to my surprise alongside this, A Tale of Two Cities!)

Egils saga is one of the greatest masterpieces of Icelandic literature, and one of the few where we have a pretty good idea of who wrote it.

The notion of context is a constant in saga literature, as one of their main functions is as a geneolgical record. It does also set the scene rather well, and sagas usually do not finish until all the main cast (and sometimes their children and grandchildren) are dead.

Egil is psychologically a very complex character. The topos of the ugly, brutish but poetic younger brother of a more heroic type is a common one, but Egil is the most consumate depiction of it. His character ranges from the pettily cruel to the poundingly psychotic, and yet he is capable of producing poetry of depth and emotional intensity. And yet, though there is no attempt by the author to excuse him, he does somehow come across as a very sympathetic. His list of crimes, on the whole, is probably greater than Queen Gunnhildr, but where as she is without doubt the villain of the story, he is somehow very human and approachable.

On a semantic note, it is not in fact correct to call them Viking Sagas - they are written long after the Viking Age, and most of them are set after the Viking Age. By the time Iceland was settled, there were no more vikings - so the phrase 'Icelandic Viking' is a contradiction in terms. Best to call it either 'Saga Literature' or 'Norse-Icelandic Literature'.

I'm really glad you're enjoying it!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Egils saga is one of the greatest masterpieces of Icelandic literature, and one of the few where we have a pretty good idea of who wrote it.

The notion of context is a constant in saga literature, as one of their main functions is as a geneolgical record. It does also set the scene rather well, and sagas usually do not finish until all the main cast (and sometimes their children and grandchildren) are dead.

Egil is psychologically a very complex character. The topos of the ugly, brutish but poetic younger brother of a more heroic type is a common one, but Egil is the most consumate depiction of it. His character ranges from the pettily cruel to the poundingly psychotic, and yet he is capable of producing poetry of depth and emotional intensity. And yet, though there is no attempt by the author to excuse him, he does somehow come across as a very sympathetic. His list of crimes, on the whole, is probably greater than Queen Gunnhildr, but where as she is without doubt the villain of the story, he is somehow very human and approachable.

On a semantic note, it is not in fact correct to call them Viking Sagas - they are written long after the Viking Age, and most of them are set after the Viking Age. By the time Iceland was settled, there were no more vikings - so the phrase 'Icelandic Viking' is a contradiction in terms. Best to call it either 'Saga Literature' or 'Norse-Icelandic Literature'.

I'm really glad you're enjoying it!

Oh yes I'm enjoying it very much. Psychotic is a good description of Egil and co, but yes there is a greater degree of complexity to him than that, taking the point about his poetic and at times sensitive nature. That's interesting though; the trope of a younger, less heroic but poetic brother at his base.

I'm a little confused about the use of Viking then. Egil and his brother often talk about going on Viking raids and King Erik of defending his lands from Viking raiders. I take it the use of Viking in such contexts are not therefore referring to actual Vikings, but Viking actions, Viking as a verb or post-Viking behaviour as it were, if you see what I mean?

[Helga]

man I lost track of this thread...

you guys are really enjoying the sagas. I liked the link about coffee in iceland, coffee is probably like tea in England to us, I drink about 10 cups a day and that is not as much as many around me. I have been reading the sagas since I was 12 so it's not something you read because you want to here, you have to read it. I only see now how good it was for me, I can't say I was always a fan of them as a kid but enjoyed most of them.

egil's saga is interesting, Egill was a very interesting man and everything around him is a fascinating read, his 'nanny' is mentioned only once or twice her name was Brák but everything else that is known about her is very interesting and she even has a few streets named after her.

I loved independent people, it is probably lost in translation but he had a unique writing style and his spelling is different from anything else in Icelandic. World Light is very good, I am going to see a play based on it soon I hope. I think there are films based on most of his books here on the ice and many plays too.

I am reading Völuspá for my son, a very good icelandic author made a children's book around it.

I am gonna read the translation by Lokasenna too, I have never read any of it in English but there is a joke here that teachers often say when teaching Njáls saga. in one translation of it his wife Bergþóra says 'I married Neil young' kids who know who Neil Young is find that very funny, the others just think the teacher is weird.

[Des Essientes]

I recommend two works from the icy North-- "The Havamal", purported to be the words of Odin himself, it reads like a slightly less sophisticated version of the Tao Te Ching, and "Peer Gynt", by Ibsen, because it is funny and delightful, and at over 300 pages I doubt any of us will ever see a complete version of it on the stage. I wonder how many hours an unabridged performance would take.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Good stuff.

I'm still fascinated by the amount of coffee Icelanders drink in a day. I drink the maximum of 3/4 cups of coffee/tea a day which I think is about the average for Brits. I can't imagine 10 cups as a conservative amount, it would send me hyper I'm sure. I might give it a go though and see what happens. Perhaps I will start composing spontaneous verses? Maybe there's a link between drinking loads of coffee and producing vast amounts of literature?

[Vonny]

You're way ahead of me Neely. I got Independent People, but haven't started it yet. It's very easy reading though. In my life I've never been too worn out to read at all before, as I've been the last few months. Maybe I should try drinking more coffee. Lokasenna would recommend tea though. I must get to my reading soon, as it has always been my salvation.

Helga, you're fortunate to have an educational system that insists that the kids actually read something, and that reminds them of their culture.

[Helga]

Helga, you're fortunate to have an educational system that insists that the kids actually read something, and that reminds them of their culture.

I agree with that and I think the educational system here is great and I really could go on and on about all the books and stories I read in school, I just wish kids appreciated it more than they do. Icelandic was always my favorite subject, I loved reading most of those sagas. I am not gonna tell you I loved the beginning of them, like Njáls's saga that has just countless names and relations in the beginning that is no fun to a 16 year old!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Glad you are reading it Vonny. It is quite a strange haunting little book and I enjoyed it a lot.

I'm working my way up to and taking the "Helga Icelandic challenge!" I'm going to try and work up to over ten cups of coffee a day to see what happens. I've had five/six today and that is a record. My eyes and brain are buzzing at that.:crazy: Also, earlier when I was emailing at work my fingers were typing at record speed and I even think most of it made sense - and that's not normal for me.

Oh, a thought - Helga how strong is the coffee most Icelanders drink? Is it really weak or normal strength?

[Calidore]

Glad you are reading it Vonny. It is quite a strange haunting little book and I enjoyed it a lot.

I'm working my way up to and taking the "Helga Icelandic challenge!" I'm going to try and work up to over ten cups of coffee a day to see what happens. I've had five/six today and that is a record. My eyes and brain are buzzing at that.:crazy: Also, earlier when I was emailing at work my fingers were typing at record speed and I even think most of it made sense - and that's not normal for me.

Oh, a thought - Helga how strong is the coffee most Icelanders drink? Is it really weak or normal strength?

You should also ask if Icelanders are normal or higher strength. It's possible that they have a genetic tolerance for amounts of coffee that would kill lesser races, like Russians do with vodka.

[Griffith]

Please someone give me a list of the main Scandinavian writers and the top notch books. Ignorants who don't know nothing about it please stay quiet. I don't want to know about films or statues. I want to know about LITERATURE.

[TheFifthElement]

Just a thought: would anyone be interested in joining an Icelandic sagas reading group? Seems like we have enough interested people, and there's plenty of material to go with. I haven't got my copy yet (Amazon says 1-3 weeks so I'm going to shop around at lunchtime...excuse to go to the bookshop? Goodie :D ) but once I've got it I'm well up for a discussion.

Anyone else fancy it?

[Vonny]

Neely, I can't believe you're actually taking that "Helga Icelandic Challenge"! Maybe you should ease into that more gradually! Many Americans drink a lot of coffee. I actually do. I also drink tea. My mother probably drank 10 cups of (fairly strong) coffee per day, until she developed atrial fibrillation (fast, irregular heartbeat) and had to stop, which was been very difficult for her to do. Many Americans are addicted to syrupy sweet coffee from Starbucks - I'm surprised we haven't exported the "latte" to you, which comes in a 24 ounce cup. I only put milk in my coffee, as my mom did. I bet the Icelanders drink their coffee "black" or with milk.

Helga, in the U.S. reading books in school is a joke. In our educational system the children instruct the teachers. And since our culture is commercial and we don't have countless names and relations, not much of a family-tree, there isn't much for us to learn anyway. I'm realizing that it's fortunate that there are cultures out there to discover. I remember as a very little girl, looking at remote places on the globe and thinking thoughts like, "I wonder what is in Iceland? Do people really live in a strange place like that?? What kind of people live there?" I was always taught that we're the center of everything and that there's not much else out there. (I guess I should say, I'm kidding a bit.)

FifthElement: Yes, I'll try it!! I'll be the slowest learner, but I'm up for it!

I'm ready to think about something besides 9/11.

[TheFifthElement]

Helga, in the U.S. reading books in school is a joke. In our educational system the children instruct the teachers. And since our culture is commercial and we don't have countless names and relations, not much of a family-tree, there isn't much for us to learn anyway. I'm realizing that it's fortunate that there are cultures out there to discover. I remember as a very little girl, looking at remote places on the globe and thinking thoughts like, "I wonder what is in Iceland? Do people really live in a strange place like that?? What kind of people live there?" I was always taught that we're the center of everything and that there's not much else out there. (I guess I should say, I'm kidding a bit.)


I was wondering about this the other day. I suppose it's difficult for US to teach much in terms of back history and culture because there comes a point in your not too far distant history where the 'culture' becomes something which seems alien - European - to which you probably don't feel much of a link. In the same way, perhaps, that Britons today don't feel much of a cultural link to the French albeit that we have a very interlinked history from 1066 onwards. I'm not sure that's always a downside. In Britain (or I feel at least) that we carry the weight of history on us and that maybe gives a sense of oldness and gravitas but also a very great weight of tradition which can be good (because it's safe) or bad (because it's difficult to change), whereas in the US you have energy and newness and vibrancy and you're creating your own culture in which you can have a real input but on the downside it maybe doesn't give you a lot to connect to or the sense that you're doing anything more than experimenting, and then there are so many people that your influence on the prevailing culture is so insignificant that it feels you can't really make a difference.

So what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that you also have culture and history but perhaps your sense of connectedness to it is different to someone in Europe, but that really is just a matter of geography and local custom. In a sense you're as connected to the Norman invaders of 1066 as I am (assuming your ancestry is British or French, of course) but may feel less so because your country and its future is defined by its break from Europe whereas mine is not. And really it's all an illusion anyway, when it comes down to it.

That probably doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm in a very reflective, rambly mood today :D

[Helga]

Oh, a thought - Helga how strong is the coffee most Icelanders drink? Is it really weak or normal strength?

I think it depends, most young people want it rather strong but people like my ex in laws they drank more coffee than anyone I know and it was so weak and disgusting. I usually get a strong Americano at coffee houses but a rather strong cup at home, I always buy espresso for home.

it's only on an empty stomach that I get shaky.

I think coffee drinking here on the ice is because it was cheap and warm on a cold night and many put in it what we call 'Landi' that is just strong home brewed alcohol. Coffee was a drink everybody could get rich or poor.

[Freudian Monkey]

For those who would like to learn more about Finnish literature, I might have a few recommendations. Mika Waltari is one of my personal favorites, he's also one of the most successful Finnish authors of all time. He wrote mainly historical fiction, the best known novel being Sinuhe, The Egyptian. It's a great novel where exciting historical facts blend nicely together with an imaginative story arc.

Many most well-known Finnish literary works, like the works of Joel Lehtonen, tell about the common life of the Finns living at the countryside. However, I'd like to recommend a classic about the Finnish city-dwellers: Toivo Pekkanen's novel Tehtaan Varjossa. Unfortunately it hasn't been translated to English, only to French, Swedish and Danish. I'd also like to mention Tuomas Anhava to all who already have learned some Finnish and want to get to know Finnish poetry - he's poems reflect the ideals of new criticism, since they are extremelly well constructed.

For those who are interested in Finnish mythology and folktales, I recommend Eino Leino's poetry alongside Kalevala and Kanteletar by Elias Lönnrot. In Finnish literature, there aren't that many sagas or tales about mythic heroes, other than the oral tradition that can be found in it's original form in a large poem collection called Suomen kansan vanhat runot.

If anyone has questions about Finnish literature, feel free to ask.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Just a thought: would anyone be interested in joining an Icelandic sagas reading group? Seems like we have enough interested people, and there's plenty of material to go with. I haven't got my copy yet (Amazon says 1-3 weeks so I'm going to shop around at lunchtime...excuse to go to the bookshop? Goodie :D ) but once I've got it I'm well up for a discussion.

Anyone else fancy it?

Yes definitely. Shout up when your book comes. Let's just keep it all on one thread and get stuck in though, none of the voting stuff.


I think it depends, most young people want it rather strong but people like my ex in laws they drank more coffee than anyone I know and it was so weak and disgusting. I usually get a strong Americano at coffee houses but a rather strong cup at home, I always buy espresso for home.

it's only on an empty stomach that I get shaky.

I think coffee drinking here on the ice is because it was cheap and warm on a cold night and many put in it what we call 'Landi' that is just strong home brewed alcohol. Coffee was a drink everybody could get rich or poor.

Thanks Helga, interesting stuff. No Vonny I'm going to bulid up to it. I've only had three today and I can't have any more for a bit. I am still amazed by it all.

[Helga]

I bet the Icelanders drink their coffee "black" or with milk.

Helga, in the U.S. reading books in school is a joke. In our educational system the children instruct the teachers. And since our culture is commercial and we don't have countless names and relations, not much of a family-tree, there isn't much for us to learn anyway. I'm realizing that it's fortunate that there are cultures out there to discover. I remember as a very little girl, looking at remote places on the globe and thinking thoughts like, "I wonder what is in Iceland? Do people really live in a strange place like that?? What kind of people live there?" I was always taught that we're the center of everything and that there's not much else out there. (I guess I should say, I'm kidding a bit.)



you are right, most people here drink their coffee black or with milk, I drink it black. we don't have Starbucks here but when I was in London it was the best bet for good coffee, I can't stand any sweeteners so I didn't try anything new, I just know I like my black cup and I don't want anything else.
it is funny but when I was a kid I had over 20 penpals from different countries and most of them in their first letter asked if we live in snow houses and eat fish everyday. also I know that many kids send letters to santa to iceland.

in school this morning there was actually a discussion about how tv and movies aren't taught enough to kids so they would learn more about how that world works. we realize as adults that there are formulas and a lot in the movies we watch is there for reason, to get us to understand some point and familiarize us with the person on the screen.
I remember my English teacher when I was 13 he used to let us watch Mr. Bean but there is hardly any English spoken in it so it was kind of a strange choice...

[TheFifthElement]

Yes definitely. Shout up when your book comes. Let's just keep it all on one thread and get stuck in though, none of the voting stuff.

I've got it! (thank you Waterstones). I've got a book to finish but will be ready in a couple of days. Shall we just start at the beginning (Egil's Saga) and work our way through chronologically?

[LitNetIsGreat]

I've got it! (thank you Waterstones). I've got a book to finish but will be ready in a couple of days. Shall we just start at the beginning (Egil's Saga) and work our way through chronologically?

Yep, fine just shoot at that. It doesn't matter if one reads it before the other we can just throw things out there. I'm sure that the likes of Lokasenna and Helga will help us out if they have got time as well and anybody else that wants to chip in. (Also Vonny and co feel free to throw in the likes of Laxness as well). The way I see it is that the more of this literature gets discussed, even small things, the better. It certainly deserves to be read.

I'm about more than halfway through Egil's Saga but I have not been able to touch it yesterday or today.

I don't like Starbucks coffee it's too big and too strong. Had four cups today well away from the ten I am aiming for, I don't think I can do it. I wonder how they fit it all in?

[Vonny]

Helga, you're a true coffee drinker when you drink black coffee! I'm bored talking about myself, but not having watched television has left me like an alien in this world. It's embarrassing to say, but I was told that the devil is in the TV! So as a kid when I went to a friend's home and the TV was on, I'd say, "Let's go outside." Since I didn't get used to the television early, it overwhelms me now, but I watch DVDs.

FifthElement, again I'm tired of me, but the only history I can personally identify with is the pioneers who came West 150 years ago, and I do really enjoy that pioneer history. Everything else that's happened in this country was about 2,000 miles from me. I admire the Native Americans, but I'm not them. My ancestors are from England, Germany and Spain, so that is very split up and remote... Well, I don't think we're a vibrant country anymore. I watched a documentary In the Shadow of the Moon with the Astronauts Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrich and others. I think this country had some vibrancy with the Apollo missions. Watching and listening to the astronauts, I feel that I can respect them. The reason I know that the moon landing conspiracy theories are false is that I can trust the individual astronauts when they say they went there. But they're in their 80s. There's no one new to fill their shoes, and there's no more great ventures.

So on to the Sagas next. And maybe I'll comment on Independent People here on this thread. The Icelanders are Dog People!

Neely, there's a wide variance in people's ability to tolerate caffeine. I can drink any amount of coffee and never feel jittery. It only makes me feel more rested. (I'm nervous, but it's the same with or without caffeine.) My own theory on this, which I have no way to substantiate, is that I got a lot of caffeine prenatally, so I think that's why it's a natural chemical to my body. Most likely, even if Helga's mother didn't drink coffee when she was pregnant, her grandmother did with her mother, so I think it's sort of "in the genes." Again - just my theory. - But if you're a person who gets jittery on coffee, I don't think you will ever adapt to large amounts as an adult.

[TheFifthElement]

Neely, there's a wide variance in people's ability to tolerate caffeine. I can drink any amount of coffee and never feel jittery. It only makes me feel more rested. (I'm nervous, but it's the same with or without caffeine.) My own theory on this, which I have no way to substantiate, is that I got a lot of caffeine prenatally, so I think that's why it's a natural chemical to my body. Most likely, even if Helga's mother didn't drink coffee when she was pregnant, her grandmother did with her mother, so I think it's sort of "in the genes." Again - just my theory. - But if you're a person who gets jittery on coffee, I don't think you will ever adapt to large amounts as an adult.
I think you're right about this Vonny. I am sensitive to caffeine, when I quit drinking caffeinated drinks my blood pressure dropped about 15 points and I no longer needed blood pressure treatment. I do wonder how many people are taking medication unnecessarily on the same basis. If I drink coffee, after 2 or 3 cups I start feeling sick and dizzy. Tea is not so bad, but mostly I drink decaffeinated tea or green or white or oolong tea which all have quite low levels of caffeine. If I have caffeine after around 8pm, I find it difficult to get to sleep.

I don't think it's that uncommon in UK to be caffeine sensitive. Sounds like Neely might be, but I also know of at least 3 other people even in my small circle of acquaintances who have switched to decaff because of sensitivity issues.

[Helga]

I can talk about Laxness but I am pretty sure Lokasenna knows more about the saga's I may comment a bit but I am no expert.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I can talk about Laxness but I am pretty sure Lokasenna knows more about the saga's I may comment a bit but I am no expert.

Fine, great also your insights into Icelandic life is very useful.


I don't think it's that uncommon in UK to be caffeine sensitive. Sounds like Neely might be, but I also know of at least 3 other people even in my small circle of acquaintances who have switched to decaff because of sensitivity issues.

I wouldn't say that I was caffeine sensitive, just that it is not really normal to drink mor than 4/5 cups of coffee a day, at least for non-Icelanders.

[Vonny]

Fine, great also your insights into Icelandic life is very useful.

Yes Helga, I second Neely on this.


It's possible that caffeine causes more trouble for me than I realize. As I said my mom developed atrial fibrillation, along with her other myriad heart troubles. She doesn't believe the caffeine caused it, but she has to drink decaf now.

Laxness mentions how stress is the worst killer. Funny how that's the same in Iceland as here.

[JazzJazz]

I've read three books by John Ajvide Lindqvist. I love his style. I feel like I can get to know the characters in his novels personally which I think is important in fiction. Unfortunately, I haven't the time to read other books by Scandinavian authors because I'm now studying English and Creative Writing at university so the reading list I already have is quite extensive :prrr:

[thelastmelon]

Just a thought: would anyone be interested in joining an Icelandic sagas reading group? Seems like we have enough interested people, and there's plenty of material to go with. I haven't got my copy yet (Amazon says 1-3 weeks so I'm going to shop around at lunchtime...excuse to go to the bookshop? Goodie :D ) but once I've got it I'm well up for a discussion.

Anyone else fancy it?
I'd like to join you, if I can.
Is there a certain copy I should get? What title?

[LitNetIsGreat]

I'd like to join you, if I can.
Is there a certain copy I should get? What title?

Excellent, rock and roll!

We are reading, in particular, Independent People by Laxness and The Sagas of the Icelanders as below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0141000031/ref=s9_simh_se_p14_d1_g14_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OL E&pf_rd_s=auto-no-results-center-1&pf_rd_r=1EFVZCHRXQK1GRFDXA8N&pf_rd_t=301&pf_rd_p=240112507&pf_rd_i=lcelanders

We are also discussing coffee consumption and anything else people care to discuss in the world of Scandinavian/Icelandic literature. Also the original version of The Killing if you have seen it.

How many cups of coffee do you drink a day?

[Lokasenna]

Just a thought: would anyone be interested in joining an Icelandic sagas reading group? Seems like we have enough interested people, and there's plenty of material to go with. I haven't got my copy yet (Amazon says 1-3 weeks so I'm going to shop around at lunchtime...excuse to go to the bookshop? Goodie :D ) but once I've got it I'm well up for a discussion.

Anyone else fancy it?

Sign me up as well! That is, so long as you don't mind me geeking out over all things Icelandic...

[thelastmelon]

Okay, great! I can get hold on the Laxness book pretty easily (I'll read it in Swedish though), and I'll see if I can join in on the other one, or if that will have to pass. :)
And as for coffee, I don't drink a single cup of coffee, ever. I prefer tea.

By the way, will the books/stories be discussed in this thread, or is there a different thread for discussion that I haven't found?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Sign me up as well! That is, so long as you don't mind me geeking out over all things Icelandic...

Of course we put you down already, your time permitting.

Oh, if you can help I was confused over the references to vikings in Egil's saga, I posted it two/three pages back, if you could shed any light on that I would be grateful, thanks.


By the way, will the books/stories be discussed in this thread, or is there a different thread for discussion that I haven't found?

Well I suggest to keep in on one thread here as the more you separate them out the more they dry up. There is another thread discussing the sagas though, so either one would be fine if you ask me.

[Lokasenna]

Oh, if you can help I was confused over the references to vikings in Egil's saga, I posted it two/three pages back, if you could shed any light on that I would be grateful, thanks.


Ah, sorry Neely - I missed that. I've been moving house these last few days, so I've been pretty distracted. I'll have a look back.

[Lokasenna]

I'm a little confused about the use of Viking then. Egil and his brother often talk about going on Viking raids and King Erik of defending his lands from Viking raiders. I take it the use of Viking in such contexts are not therefore referring to actual Vikings, but Viking actions, Viking as a verb or post-Viking behaviour as it were, if you see what I mean?

Ah, found it!

Right, the term 'viking' comes from quite a broad lexical field. Víkingr is the noun, meaning 'pirate' or 'freebooter'. It's a job description. The noun Víking means 'piracy' in general. By the settlement of Iceland, the so-called Viking Age, when piracy was extremely rife and the economy of northern Europe depended on predation, had wound down, though Viking raids continued on a much smaller basis for many decades thereafter. Most of the medieval Icelanders who go abroad in sagas tend to go trading or travelling rather than raiding. The whole piracy thing is far more common in sagas set before the settlement, when romantic notions of the 'old way' abound.

[Idril]

I'm curious about the term 'Jomsviking'. How does that differ from your typical garden variety of Viking? It was mentioned a lot in The Long Ships by Frans G. Bengtsson. I had asked my brother who is fairly knowledgeable about those kinds of things but his response was quite vague.

[TheFifthElement]

Well I suggest to keep in on one thread here as the more you separate them out the more they dry up. There is another thread discussing the sagas though, so either one would be fine if you ask me.

Perhaps it would make sense to keep it all in this thread, then. Otherwise we might start getting a bit lost.

Started reading Egil's Saga today. Getting a bit lost with the who is related to who business but I think it will become clearer as I go along. Reminds me a bit of Beowulf in that respect. Interesting so far anyway.

On the subject of fascinating Iceland, I was curious about the name 'Laxness' as this doesn't seem to follow the pattern of Icelandic names and it turns out that 'Laxness' is a chosen family name but that it is now illegal in Iceland to choose a family name. Is that right Helga? I understood that surnames are usually 'insert name of parent' followed by 'dottir' for a girl and 'sson' for a boy. So My Dad was called Brian and I would be called 'Whatever my first name is Briansdottir'. Is that right? I like this way of naming, but I imagine it only works in a relatively small population.

And if we have time to discuss Bjork, that'd be good too. Being as she is about the most creative person on the planet right now and is, of course, also Icelandic.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ah, found it!

Right, the term 'viking' comes from quite a broad lexical field. Víkingr is the noun, meaning 'pirate' or 'freebooter'. It's a job description. The noun Víking means 'piracy' in general. By the settlement of Iceland, the so-called Viking Age, when piracy was extremely rife and the economy of northern Europe depended on predation, had wound down, though Viking raids continued on a much smaller basis for many decades thereafter. Most of the medieval Icelanders who go abroad in sagas tend to go trading or travelling rather than raiding. The whole piracy thing is far more common in sagas set before the settlement, when romantic notions of the 'old way' abound.

Oh brilliant, I get it now, my guess wasn't too far off the spot then. Moving house is a pain.


Perhaps it would make sense to keep it all in this thread, then. Otherwise we might start getting a bit lost.

Started reading Egil's Saga today. Getting a bit lost with the who is related to who business but I think it will become clearer as I go along. Reminds me a bit of Beowulf in that respect. Interesting so far anyway.

On the subject of fascinating Iceland, I was curious about the name 'Laxness' as this doesn't seem to follow the pattern of Icelandic names and it turns out that 'Laxness' is a chosen family name but that it is now illegal in Iceland to choose a family name. Is that right Helga? I understood that surnames are usually 'insert name of parent' followed by 'dottir' for a girl and 'sson' for a boy. So My Dad was called Brian and I would be called 'Whatever my first name is Briansdottir'. Is that right? I like this way of naming, but I imagine it only works in a relatively small population.

And if we have time to discuss Bjork, that'd be good too. Being as she is about the most creative person on the planet right now and is, of course, also Icelandic.

OK then, keep in on this thread if you are happy with that and it is OK with the thread starter? This way you get potential crossover points of discussion from other people and we don't exclude anybody who is not reading the sagas but might want to chip in with things. If we discuss the sagas in a separate thread it's likely to bomb.

In terms of the names I think it is impossible to try and hold all that information in your head and I don't think it is important to do so. What I found was that the more important central characters tend to settle and come together after a while. Just go with it.

Oh is that Bjork as your avatar? The only thing I know about her is that awful song when she screams at the top of her voice from ages ago. I hate screeching like that. Of course there may be more to her than that but that's all I know. You're have to do a lot to convince me to listen to anything else based on that row though.:D

[Lokasenna]

I'm curious about the term 'Jomsviking'. How does that differ from your typical garden variety of Viking? It was mentioned a lot in The Long Ships by Frans G. Bengtsson. I had asked my brother who is fairly knowledgeable about those kinds of things but his response was quite vague.

The Jómsvikings were a pseudo-historical order of viking pirates who operated out of what was in essence an independent city state, Jómsborg. Essentially, a pirate kingdom. According to Jómsvíkinga saga, which is the main source for their exploits, there was a long list of regulations about who was allowed to become a member of the group: no women, men had to be a certain age, they had to have proven themselves in fearless exploits, they weren't permitted to feud amongst themselves, and many others that I can't remember off the top of my head.

Because of the purported size of their fleet and their martial prowess, they were a major naval power, and many aristocrats sought alliances with them. Unfortunately for them, they are most remembered for the battles they either lost of acted treacherously in. At the battle of Hjörungavágr they fought the forces of Hákon Sigurðsson, the last pagan ruler of Norway; according to Jómsvíkinga saga they were soundly defeated by the sorceress/goddess Þorgerðr Hölgabrúðr. They also famously switched sides at the battle of Svolder, which lead to the death of King Óláfr Tryggvason, the first great Christian monarch of Norway. Largely as a result of this, some 40 years later King Magnús the Good wiped them out completely, and destroyed Jómsborg.

They've been popular though, in terms of literary appearances. I think it is a rather romantic notion that appeals to something in the medieval writers: this manly band of brothers ruling their own little esoteric kingdom. I'm afraid to say that I think the accounts are almost entirely mythical, and that no such organization ever existed. That said, there are some scholars who have argued for a degree of veracity behind the legend.

[TheFifthElement]

Oh is that Bjork as your avatar? The only thing I know about her is that awful song when she screams at the top of her voice from ages ago. I hate screeching like that. Of course there may be more to her than that but that's all I know. You're have to do a lot to convince me to listen to anything else based on that row though.:D
You must be thinking of 'It's Oh So Quiet' which is the only Bjork song most people know and is also thought of by most Bjork fans as an aberration. There's much more to her than that, but she's not to everyone's taste. She is, however, definitely the most creative person on the planet. No doubt about it. Her current album is being released both as a traditional CD and as an interactive app. It's pretty cool. She can also act (see Dancer in the Dark - she won the Palm D'Or at Cannes for her performance).
One of my favourites http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=9PEybjgUj6U

[Helga]

On the subject of fascinating Iceland, I was curious about the name 'Laxness' as this doesn't seem to follow the pattern of Icelandic names and it turns out that 'Laxness' is a chosen family name but that it is now illegal in Iceland to choose a family name. Is that right Helga? I understood that surnames are usually 'insert name of parent' followed by 'dottir' for a girl and 'sson' for a boy. So My Dad was called Brian and I would be called 'Whatever my first name is Briansdottir'. Is that right? I like this way of naming, but I imagine it only works in a relatively small population.

And if we have time to discuss Bjork, that'd be good too. Being as she is about the most creative person on the planet right now and is, of course, also Icelandic.


People can't choose their family name now but there are still many in use and you are correct about the names here, I am Guðmundsdóttir cause my dads name was Guðmundur. It is an extremely popular name here on the ice. When you mention Björk, I have never been a fan and she is way more popular overseas than here on the ice.but we have the same last name so many people have asked if we are related, it seems like we must be in such a small country and have the same last name but no.

the endless names at the beginning of the sagas is the worst part I could never make heads or tails of it but I still enjoyed the stories.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes that's the one, right loud that one was...

OK then I'll listen to another track as it is the spirit of the thread. The link you posted doesn't work. Post it again and I'll listen. If she screams and I drop my coffee you get the stain removal bill.

[irinmisfit92]

you are right, most people here drink their coffee black or with milk, I drink it black. we don't have Starbucks here but when I was in London it was the best bet for good coffee, I can't stand any sweeteners so I didn't try anything new, I just know I like my black cup and I don't want anything else.
it is funny but when I was a kid I had over 20 penpals from different countries and most of them in their first letter asked if we live in snow houses and eat fish everyday. also I know that many kids send letters to santa to iceland.

in school this morning there was actually a discussion about how tv and movies aren't taught enough to kids so they would learn more about how that world works. we realize as adults that there are formulas and a lot in the movies we watch is there for reason, to get us to understand some point and familiarize us with the person on the screen.
I remember my English teacher when I was 13 he used to let us watch Mr. Bean but there is hardly any English spoken in it so it was kind of a strange choice...

Whoa I haven't been to my own post for some time and I didn't realise the discussion has gone extremely far. Haha I can understand why those people write them to you because as an Asian people here tend not to know much about Iceland. I also have assumptions that Iceland is the land where Santa lives and that everyone lives in igloos. Seems like I'm wrong. How exactly is Iceland like?

I think in almost any education system kids are not really forced to read and be exposed to a lot of ideas. In Indonesia, the system's pretty easy and students are generally very lazy (but happy), whereas in Singapore, the education system's wayyyyy too difficult and stressful because every student is expected to be holistic in their learning. The people are generally good in writing English, but there are very few who actually bother to be more eclectic. I think Singapore is somehow the Asian version of USA. Even though it's a small country, its prosperity kind of makes the people somewhat complacent, even though the education system is so much different from that of the US. Some kids here commit suicide because of bad A level grades, and trust me, the A levels here are not the ones taken by the Brits. The A levels is "Singapore-Cambridge"; not Cambridge.

[TheFifthElement]

People can't choose their family name now but there are still many in use and you are correct about the names here, I am Guðmundsdóttir cause my dads name was Guðmundur. It is an extremely popular name here on the ice. When you mention Björk, I have never been a fan and she is way more popular overseas than here on the ice.but we have the same last name so many people have asked if we are related, it seems like we must be in such a small country and have the same last name but no.

the endless names at the beginning of the sagas is the worst part I could never make heads or tails of it but I still enjoyed the stories.
I am enjoying the story too, though I am wondering, 30 odd pages into Egil's Saga, when Egil is going to make an appearance :)

I read somewhere that Icelanders can have problems at passport control because people expect their children to have the same last name as the parents, and find it very confusing when they don't. I like your naming tradition, it's nice.



OK then I'll listen to another track as it is the spirit of the thread. The link you posted doesn't work. Post it again and I'll listen. If she screams and I drop my coffee you get the stain removal bill.
Ah, I think that's because I used the Apple Iamtotallyuselessbutboydon'tilookpretty thing. Let's try another link:
Hidden Place (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2loVEqBW5Q)

or if you just want to watch a video with a cat in a vest in it, interspecies snogging and spontaneous, drunk yodelling, there's always:

Triumph of a Heart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HTugQFI8Wg&feature=channel_video_title)

which is cool, apart from the video, if only for the line: 'Smooth, soft, red velvety lungs are pushing a network joyfully...'

She is nothing if not unique :D

I don't think there's any screaming in either of those, and besides how will I know if you've dropped your coffee because of the screaming or because of the ten cup jitters? How many cups is it today, by the way?

Just back on the subject of literature, and while I'm still thinking about Björk, has anyone read anything by Sjon? He's a contemporary writer, who has written some of Björk's lyrics (hence I've heard of him). I've spied a couple of his books on Amazon and am thinking of trying him out. One called The Blue Fox and one called From the Mouth of the Whale. Any opinions?

[LitNetIsGreat]

I am enjoying the story too, though I am wondering, 30 odd pages into Egil's Saga, when Egil is going to make an appearance.:)

Yes I wondered that at the time, but as Lokasenna said they tend to engulf the whole of the family past and beyond (grand parents to children) and don't tend to end until all of them are dead. From this you obviously get a deep sense of history and context that you can relate back to - ahhh, his grandfather was like that as well etc, etc, amongst everything else.

OK, I'll have a listen to those songs later, though I doubt I'll like them.:D Only had two cups today so far; just can't get beyond four/five.

No I've not read any of those books you mention. What about the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo things, surely these are so popular that they have to be pretty awful? I don't know anything about them.

[TheFifthElement]

OK, I'll have a listen to those songs later, though I doubt I'll like them.:D Only had two cups today so far; just can't get beyond four/five.

No I've not read any of those books you mention. What about the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo things, surely these are so popular that they have to be pretty awful? I don't know anything about them.
Have you considered the size of the cup? Maybe Icelandic cups are smaller in which case four/five might be closer to ten than you think?

Just checked the Mcr central library catalogue and they have Blue Fox on the shelf so I guess I'll be trundling down there on Monday and pick it up.

Haven't read any of the Millenium series, as like you I assume if it's popular it's probably trash. A girl at work was reading them and said she found the third one hard to get through but I think that might have had something to do with it bring about 750 pages long. I had a little read and the sentences were very short so I found it a bit bleugh, but that could be down to quality of translation. It's always hard to know.

On the subject of Scandinavian literature, again, any fans of Tove Jansson out there? I've read Moomingtrolls (obviously!) but read one of her books for adults earlier this year called 'The True Deceiver' and it was excellent. Strongly recommend for a winter read.

[Helga]

Just back on the subject of literature, and while I'm still thinking about Björk, has anyone read anything by Sjon? He's a contemporary writer, who has written some of Björk's lyrics (hence I've heard of him). I've spied a couple of his books on Amazon and am thinking of trying him out. One called The Blue Fox and one called From the Mouth of the Whale. Any opinions?


Sjón is a very good poet and author, he was a guest performer in Björk's band the Sugarcubes. his novels are really good and most of them are kinda short and easy to read, his poems are very good too.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Good point about the cups in Iceland, are they tiny? I bet they are normal size though.

Only had one cup this morning (and a tea) but it was a large one, so I'm counting that as two.

Just finished Egil's saga. Very much enjoyed it and looking forward to the next one in the book. I'm interested to see how they differ from Egil's especially in terms of violence:


Then Egil cut off Amrod's beard close to the chin, and gouged out his eyes...(ch73)

(I could go on and on but I don't want to spoil it Fifth.)
or his manners:


Egil started to feel that he woul not be able to go on like this. He stood up and walked across the floor to where Armod was sitting, seized him by the shoulders and thrust him up against a wall-post. Then Egil spewed a torrent of vomit that gushed all over Armod's face, filling his eyes and nostrils and mouth and pouring down his beard and chest. (ch72)

Though he does have his nice side.;)

It will be interesting to compare the sagas. The next one up is The Saga of the People of Vatnsdal. It looks to be shorter than Egil's saga, about half the size.

[Idril]

Just finished Egil's saga. Very much enjoyed it and looking forward to the next one in the book. I'm interested to see how they differ from Egil's especially in terms of violence:


They are all pretty violent, Neely. The hacking off of limbs and cleaving in half of bodies will continue. :wink5:

One of the things I love about the sagas, about that culture is there is so much violence, so many revenge killings, so much savagery and then they go to The Thing and pay out damages and all is good. I love that contrast between utter lawlessness and the reasonableness of taking responsibility for your actions, "Yes, I cut your son's head off but here's a bag of silver and some land and so we're fine."

[LitNetIsGreat]

They are all pretty violent, Neely. The hacking off of limbs and cleaving in half of bodies will continue. :wink5:

One of the things I love about the sagas, about that culture is there is so much violence, so many revenge killings, so much savagery and then they go to The Thing and pay out damages and all is good. I love that contrast between utter lawlessness and the reasonableness of taking responsibility for your actions, "Yes, I cut your son's head off but here's a bag of silver and some land and so we're fine."

Oh yes it gathered it is part and parcel of the sagas. That said this second one doesn't seem quite as psychotic as Egil was.

True, there is a strange code of honour that exists. I gather "The Thing" is some sort of court of justice - seems a strange name?

[Lokasenna]

Glad you enjoyed it Neely!

What did you think of Egil's poetry? Particularly Sonatorrek, the poem about the death of his sons? It is generally held up as the finest surviving example of genuine pre-Conversion Old Norse poetry.

Though not a consumate masterpiece, Vatnsdœla saga is good fun as well. Andrew Wawn, the translator, was one of my tutors at Leeds - and it's one of his favourites to give lectures on. It contains some interesting material on Old Norse magical practices that are great fun.

The Thing is a meeting of chieftans were matters of law are prosecuted. Every four years the was the Althing, the great meeting of all the most powerful men in Iceland, where the lawspeaker recited the country's laws, and the most important crimes were prosecuted. It was an open-air affair held in the dramatic scenery of Þingvellir, in the geological fault between the American and Eurasian tectonic plates.

The Althing still exists today as the Icelandic parliament, though it moved to Reykjavík in the late 1700s (can't remember the exact date). It was founded in 930, and as such is the world's oldest still surviving parlimentary institution, a fact the Icelanders are very proud of.

[Idril]

I forgot to thank you, Lokasenna, for your explanation of Jomsvikings. You explained it much clearer than my brother did. He did mention that they may be more myth than fact but that was about all I got out of that conversation.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Oh, some interesting points there. Yes I was interested in his use of verse throughout. I'm going to go back over some of it and bits and pieces again, especially in light of what you say about it.

Fancy knowing the translator of the saga I'm on now. I will look out for the magical pieces then.

Thanks for clearing The Thing up I would have never have thought that so much history surrounds it.

I can see how these things can be quite addictive.

[TheFifthElement]

Sjón is a very good poet and author, he was a guest performer in Björk's band the Sugarcubes. his novels are really good and most of them are kinda short and easy to read, his poems are very good too.

I will take that recommendation, thanks Helga :) Can I ask you another couple of questions? How do you pronounce 'ð' and also is it right that the 'ö' is pronounced like 'e' so Björk would be pronounced 'Byerk'? There's a pronunciation guide in my copy of World Light and I still can't quite get my head around it.


Just finished Egil's saga. Very much enjoyed it and looking forward to the next one in the book. I'm interested to see how they differ from Egil's especially in terms of violence...or his manners

Egil has now made an appearance. Those extracts you posted were hilarious, can't wait to get to those. I was reading a bit to my son the other day, where Kveldulf attacked someone with an axe and drove it so deep into his head that when he pulled it away the man was tossed overboard. He thought it was very funny. Very violent too, obviously.

Gah, I'm so behind. That horrible thing called 'work' is very much interfering with my reading time. I'm off to London tomorrow and will probably be spending tonight figuring out what I can leave behind in order to fit the Sagas into my bag.

*edit - I have to say, I'm very, very impressed with Lokasenna's extensive knowledge.

[Lokasenna]

I forgot to thank you, Lokasenna, for your explanation of Jomsvikings. You explained it much clearer than my brother did. He did mention that they may be more myth than fact but that was about all I got out of that conversation.

You're welcome! I've written fairly extensively on Þorgerðr Hölgabrúðr, and her battle with the Jómsvíkings is arguably her most important and characterising moment - so I've used that saga a lot!


Fancy knowing the translator of the saga I'm on now. I will look out for the magical pieces then.

The Old Norse academic community is very small, so everybody knows each other. It's really rather nice - big academic conferences come to feel like family reunions. And Andrew is such a great fellow - he was a real inspiration to me.


I have to say, I'm very, very impressed with Lokasenna's extensive knowledge.

Thank you! I'm glad to shed whatever light I can on this fascinating corpus - the more people who read it, the better.

Also, you were asking about pronunciation. Some people like to try using a reconstructed Old Norse form of pronunciation, but most academics (myself included) prefer to use modern Icelandic pronunciation. Hopefully Helga will correct me if I'm wrong, but here it goes! The letter 'ð' is called an Eth, and is pronounced like the 'th' sound in breathe. The letter 'ö' is pronounced like the 'eu' sound in French word peur, or the were sound in Northern English dialects. Another letter that crops up frequently is the Thorn, 'Þ', which is pronounced as a voiced 'th' sound, as in the word think.

There are some other interesting features of pronunciation which I might put up later if I have time. The translators, unfortunately, tend to anglicise everything - so the name 'Guðrún' becomes 'Gudrun' and so forth...

[Lokasenna]

Please excuse the double post, but I thought I could provide a bit of contextual illumination with some of my holiday snaps from last summer!

There isn't much at Borg now, apart from this church (which Egil would not be happy with!):

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040740.jpg

The actual farm where Egil was born and lived has long since gone, but its position is marked by a cairn:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040741.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040742.jpg

The famous episode where Skalla-Grímr Kveldulfsson drowns Egil's nanny with a boulder is also recognized, and this is the place:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040438.jpg

There's a rather artistic cairn there as well:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040440.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040441.jpg

Now, for the Alþing, here are some of the settings. This is the lawrock, where the lawspeaker stood to recite the law:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040128.jpg

This is Þingvellir itself, the valley in the crevice between the two tectonic plates - it was here the great meeting was held for centuries. The taller plate on the right is the American plate:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040129.jpg

The scenery in Iceland is stunning wherever you go, but Þingvellir, now a national park, is particularly attractive. I took dozens of photos, but here are some nice ones:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040154.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040147.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040146.jpg

[Helga]

wow Lokasenna, you took some good pictures! I haven't been to Þingvellir for years even though it is not a long drive. Brák, Egil's nanny is not mentioned a lot in the saga but an Icelandic actress researched her a lot and made a one woman show simply called Brák that has been on stage for a few years now. I think the shows are fewer now but every now and then. the letters are pronounced just like you said, no need for my Icelandic there.

I am curious though how long you were here on the ice and where you went? I don't travel much but it seems to me like you have seen more of the island than I have... also for some reason I don't really get why people would want to come here, I know I want to live here but why come here for a holiday...

[LitNetIsGreat]

Fascinating and beautiful shots Loka, really lovely.

This might seem like a dumb question then, but I take it from your wording that Egil was, or was based on, a real character? How many of the sagas roughly are based on real people do you know? What's the balance?

Thanks.

Had a couple of really busy days with work and stuff "to do". It's a pain; all I want to do is to sit and read this stuff. I'm going to take my nightly bath and see if I can't wake myself up a bit. Oh and I think too much coffee is not good for me, going to give up on the Helga coffee challenge!

Edit: the Egil chap is really growing on me. I feel like I just want to read it again...maybe from his entrance onwards. Right now though I've all on reading my post - I need a bath!

(I've nicked that fourth one down as my temporary desktop background for my laptop, that is until the kids change it for some fluffy animal.)

[MystyrMystyry]

Because it's mystical, historical, and mythological Helga. Like seeing where King Arthur's Camelot may have stood (throwing your heart and mind back to ancient Albion), or going to where Hadrian's Wall was built to keep the militarily superior Picts/Scots from taking over the entire Roman Empire (had we been so inclined)

It's the romantic feel of the ancient history, of Vikings (and their descendants), of the Elder Edda, and the myths - of standing where the figures stood, and seeing what they saw virtually unchanged over the centuries.

History and archaeology and everything - it's all great. Sometimes you have to get away from where you live for awhile to appreciate it, but sometimes the distance is time.

In New Zealand after The Lord Of The Rings was filmed, tourism went straight up because people wanted to see and be in Middle Earth. But Iceland is real history - you're very lucky Helga.

[Helga]

maybe one day I'll get out of my comfort zone and see more of this island.

[Vonny]

Helga, if I traveled I'd go to Iceland, and maybe the south of Argentina... I don't know! But I surely wouldn't go to Paris where there's hordes of people, I know that. Iceland looks so clean and unspoiled, and as Mystyry said, mystical.

Lokasenna, the photos are beautiful but they could have been better. :(

[JuniperWoolf]

Also what about this mammoth thing? 848 pages of sagas!?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sagas-Icelanders-World/dp/0141000031/ref=pd_sim_b_5


That's a very good volume as well - we use that for teaching the undergrads, and the translations in it are the best going.

That's the one I'll order, then. I was considering following the path of a Greek Classicist when I was first venturing into undergrad studies. I know a lot about Roman, Celtic and Middle Eastern mythology and history as well, and yet somehow I managed to accumulate very little knowledge about Norse myth and history. It's odd, since being from the Great White North myself I've always felt a kinship towards the Northern Germanic countries.

:yesnod: It's nice having our own personal expert.


I'll just add my voice to Neely's - The Killing is really amazing. When it originally aired, I only heard about it quite late on, and only managed to watch the first three episodes before the iPlayer pulled it off. I am now watching the reshowing, and like Neely I am hopelessly addicted. It is slow moving but brilliantly plotted and superbly acted.

Haha, after your reccomendation last year I've watched a ridiculous amount of Doctor Who, and now I can tell that you're going to get me addicted to something else. I blame my upcoming lack of productivity on you, Loka.

[billl]

It's odd, since being from the Great White North myself I've always felt a kinship towards the Northern Germanic countries.


I read the collection a couple years ago (right about when I started coming on LitNet, actually), and it really is something. After about 700-800 pages, well, that's a lot of sagas, for me at least... but throughout the anthology, there is a rough progression forward through time, during which an often mythological-based/superstitious and possibly pumped-up version of events shifts more into a realistic, and more reliable accounting of things in subsequent sagas, and one of the great things about the end of that massive book is the stories that make up some of the important historical documentation of the first Europeans visiting your nation's eastern shores and taking a stab at survival in North America.

[Lokasenna]

I am curious though how long you were here on the ice and where you went? I don't travel much but it seems to me like you have seen more of the island than I have... also for some reason I don't really get why people would want to come here, I know I want to live here but why come here for a holiday...

For that holiday, I was there for a week - four nights based in Reykjavík and three nights based in Akureyri. We rented a car, so getting around was easy enough. Let me see if I remember the itinerary:

Day 0: Blue Lagoon
Day 1: Golden Circle (Gullfoss, Geysir, Laugrvatn and Þingvellir)
Day 2: Day in Reykjavík (including the maddest shopping spree of my life in Bóksala Stúdenta)
Day 3: Skógafoss, Vík and Jökulsárlón
Day 4: Borg and Reykholt
Day 5: Goðafoss, Mývatn, Dimmuborgir, Hverir and Dettifoss
Day 6: Drangey, Grettislaug and Glaumbær
Day 7: Drive to airport, calling in at National Museum of Iceland which had been closed on Day 2.

It was a great holiday, and I've been back to Iceland several times since then, though always for things in Reykjavík - it really is the most spectacular and wonderful country!


This might seem like a dumb question then, but I take it from your wording that Egil was, or was based on, a real character? How many of the sagas roughly are based on real people do you know? What's the balance?

All the Íslendingasögur are ostensibly history, albeit that a very obvious motive is to provide entertainment. That said, they are supposed to be a 'realistic' form of literature - everything that happens is supposed to be plausible. Egil was absolutely a historical person: that is beyond doubt. A lot of the poetry attributed to him is quite likely to be authentic, particularly the three long poems (though Höfuðlausn, the one he gives in York to save his life is a little suspect). Thus, the context surrounding these poems is likely to be fairly accurate.

The Icelanders have always been passionate about geneology, and detailed records of family trees and their ancestors' exploits have always been around, at first memorised and repeated orally and later written down. We are about 95% sure that Snorri Sturluson was the author of Egils saga, though we can't prove it. This is for several reasons: firstly, on linguistic grounds; secondly, the saga is undoubtedly the work of a genius and Snorri was without doubt one of the finest minds the medieval world produced; thirdly, and most compellingly, Snorri was a descendent of Egil - it would be in his interests to write a saga glorifying his great ancestor.


It's nice having our own personal expert.

At last, my degree is useful for something! :lol:


Haha, after your reccomendation last year I've watched a ridiculous amount of Doctor Who, and now I can tell that you're going to get me addicted to something else. I blame my upcoming lack of productivity on you, Loka.

Fab! Though to be fair, The Killing is well worth it - masterful drama. And, you know, work is overrated!

If people would like me to, and it wouldn't constitute going off-topic, I could post up some more pictures of Iceland's stunning scenery?

[LitNetIsGreat]

All the Íslendingasögur are ostensibly history, albeit that a very obvious motive is to provide entertainment. That said, they are supposed to be a 'realistic' form of literature - everything that happens is supposed to be plausible. Egil was absolutely a historical person: that is beyond doubt. A lot of the poetry attributed to him is quite likely to be authentic, particularly the three long poems (though Höfuðlausn, the one he gives in York to save his life is a little suspect). Thus, the context surrounding these poems is likely to be fairly accurate.

The Icelanders have always been passionate about geneology, and detailed records of family trees and their ancestors' exploits have always been around, at first memorised and repeated orally and later written down. We are about 95% sure that Snorri Sturluson was the author of Egils saga, though we can't prove it. This is for several reasons: firstly, on linguistic grounds; secondly, the saga is undoubtedly the work of a genius and Snorri was without doubt one of the finest minds the medieval world produced; thirdly, and most compellingly, Snorri was a descendent of Egil - it would be in his interests to write a saga glorifying his great ancestor.

Thanks that's cleared that up for me.


If people would like me to, and it wouldn't constitute going off-topic, I could post up some more pictures of Iceland's stunning scenery?

Please do, shoot away.

[Helga]

Lokasenna, you have seen a lot of iceland that is for sure. My parents took me on trips as a kid but I haven't been to these places for years. I don't like the blue lagoon and I doubt I'll go there again.

you are absolutely right about our genealogy and being so small and isolated it is an ideal place for gene research. there is an icelandic website that has the 'family tree' almost a 100%, I can put in my name and every one in the history of iceland and see the relation. When it comes to people alive today most are related in the 6th or 7th generation, it is no lie that everyone is connected here.

Lokasenna, I would love to see more pictures you have taken of the ice!

[Vonny]

If people would like me to, and it wouldn't constitute going off-topic, I could post up some more pictures of Iceland's stunning scenery?

Yes, more please :)

[Lokasenna]

Righty-ho! I took many hundreds of photos, but here are some of the best that show off Iceland's incredible natural beauty.

Firstly, Iceland is famed for its many stunning waterfalls. The most famous is Gullfoss:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040052.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040056.jpg

Skógafoss:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040223.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040226.jpg

Goðafoss:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040530.jpg

Dettifoss, the most powerful waterfall by volume in Europe - you can tell by the size of the canyon it has cut out:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040667.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040663.jpg

Now what would Iceland be without ice? Here is one of the many limbs of the Vatnajökull glacier, one of the largest in the world:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040263.jpg

One of the limbs has melted to rapidly to create the great glacial lagoon of Jökulsárlón, the most hauntingly beautiful place I have ever seen. The lagoon is constantly full of icebergs, that move with unimaginable tranquility:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040276.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040291.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040313.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040371.jpg

The lagoon has a small opening to the sea, and when the icebergs are small enough they get pulled out. Many of them end up on the black, volcanic beach nearby, as the frigid Atlantic rolls them in:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040403.jpg

Speaking of things volcanic, that is obviously Iceland's other main landscape feature. The most famous is Geysir, steaming gently:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040089.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040103.jpg

Geysir is home to Strokkur, one of the world's biggest geysers, and also one of the most regular, erupting every 8 minutes or so. It starts as a sort of throbbing, liquid hole in the earth that seems to flex and breathe before exploding violently upwards:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040087.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040088.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040100.jpg

Volcanic activity has also majorly shaped the northern bits of Iceland. Lake Mývatn is a natural wonder: a vast, shallow lake that is permanently heated to a moderate temperature. It has become a real hub of wildlife. The lake is dotted with hundreds of islands and craters:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040549.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040550.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040562.jpg

Near the lake is Dimmuborgir, the 'dark towers'. These are a completely unique volcanic formation, and they amazingly resemble a fortification of some sort - medieval Icelander's thought they were a troll's castle, and kept clear. It is very easy to see why:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040571.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040576.jpg

The volcanic activity in that area has also lead to the creation of Hverir, the closest imaginable place to hell on earth. Nothing can live there: the ground is scorched and hot, the air is thick with the stench of the sulphur that colours the surface, steam vents scream like insane locamotives and vast calderas bubble with poisonous grey mud:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040613.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040625.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040626.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040643.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040658.jpg

Hope you enjoyed these! And if any of you are ever thinking of going on holiday to Iceland, I have only one thing to say: go!

[Helga]

Lokasenna, now I wanna go. beautiful pictures, I have been to most of these places, not all but most.

Bóksala stúdenta is a great bookstore, in the middle of the university, I dare not go in unless I really need something! and it is cheaper than other bookstores here on the ice.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Amazing shots, wonderful.

Going to read some more tonight, I've nearly finished Vatnsdal Saga. Yes it is not as good as Egil's but it has been interesting comparing the two and learning a little more of the culture that comes through.

[Vonny]

Beautiful and interesting photos, Lokasenna. It's too bad you aren't in any of them, but I suppose we don't want to lose the topic of the thread, lol. The best part is your mother in the photos. It's lovely that you take your mother to Iceland, especially since she had to miss so much of your childhood, with having to work and all. So many people I see give gifts and make a big "to do", but they will not give of themselves, they will not spend their time. And with parents we never know what day something will go wrong and everything changes and they can no longer travel and do things... (So interesting how this perfected one isn't Christian.) Lovely photos. :)

[LitNetIsGreat]

Where's his mum, I must have missed that one?:smile5:

The shots of the waterfalls and the ice are amazing in particular. It all seems so untouched. Probably remained the same since the sagas and before.

[Vonny]

Neely, these have Lokasenna's mum:


This is Þingvellir itself, the valley in the crevice between the two tectonic plates - it was here the great meeting was held for centuries. The taller plate on the right is the American plate:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040129.jpg


Speaking of things volcanic, that is obviously Iceland's other main landscape feature. The most famous is Geysir, steaming gently:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/P1040089.jpg

[Scheherazade]

Beautiful and interesting photos, Lokasenna. It's too bad you aren't in any of them, but I suppose we don't want to lose the topic of the thread, lol. The best part is your mother in the photos. It's lovely that you take your mother to Iceland, especially since she had to miss so much of your childhood, with having to work and all. So many people I see give gifts and make a big "to do", but they will not give of themselves, they will not spend their time. And with parents we never know what day something will go wrong and everything changes and they can no longer travel and do things... (So interesting how this perfected one isn't Christian.) Lovely photos. :)Well, I hope Loka does not mind having his personal life laid out here in the Forum in this manner.

Loka, wonderful photos as always... Like Neely, loved the waterfalls. Never been interested in Iceland as such but these managed to pique my interest! :)

[Lokasenna]

Never been interested in Iceland as such but these managed to pique my interest! :)

And there you have my intent! When I was preparing to go there, so many people would say things like, "What? Iceland? Why would you possibly want to go there?".

For a country that is only about the size of Wales and Scotland combined, the scenery has a feeling of immensity that I have never encountered before. The scenery ranges from the beautiful to the weird, and changes dramatically over short distances. And the most amazing thing is the silence - it is so hard to find actual complete silence, but it abounds in Iceland. You can get out of the car on the country's main road, and hear absolutely nothing. It really is awe-inspiring.

[MystyrMystyry]

They are amazing photos Loki. Those waterfalls are spectacular, and your mention of the still silence has really drawn me in

Maybe one day you should come down to see Middle Earth (guysers in NZ too strangely), with some breath taking scenery all its own. There's quite a bit of the strange in the native cultures of both Oz and NZ, that would knock you out if you began to study the complexity of their traditions (you're vast - you're capable)

But just of the landscapes - I mean the tip of the South Island is like half a million uninhabited little islands all drifting along in the mist, which to float around in a fishing boat is something out of Celtic legend, and the more extreme Maori facial tattoos provide a glimpse of the Ancient Britons.


Actually every Litnetter must make the trip some day - you'll regret if otherwise.

[TheFifthElement]

I just want to echo everyone's comments about how amazing those photos are Lokasenna. Really, really beautiful, especially the ones of the lagoon where the water is so still and tranquil it looks like glass.

I already wanted to go to Iceland, but now I really want to go to Iceland. It's one of the few places on my 'I expect I will really love it here' hit list (Japan, Italy, Iceland...well I already know I love Italy.).

Any more pictures?

Back on to the sagas, I managed to lug my book all the way to London and back and read a bit more of Egil's Saga. Not finished yet though. There are some ace bits in it which I'll probably take the trouble to reference over the weekend when I've got a bit more time.

[Artorius]

While the subject is Icelandic literature I've got to mention a wonderful little book called The Good Shepard by Gunnar Gunnarsson. It's so beautifully written that I've made it a habit to read it every year. Preferably when snow is pounding on the windows to get the full effect :)

Gunnarsson is near forgotten author but in his days he was nominated three times for the Nobel, according to Wikipedia.

[Helga]

one of the times he was nominated (Gunnar Gunnarsson) Halldór Laxness got the award, I think I remember it correctly but you are right he has been kinda forgotten even here on the ice.

[TheFifthElement]

Any recommendations for great female Scandinavian writers (Tove Jansson aside)?

[Griffith]

What about scandinavian girls?? I really appreciate blonde girls. :smash: :brow:
Now talking about serious subjects, i would like to know an introductory book approaching nordic literature in general. Any suggestions?

[Lokasenna]

What about scandinavian girls?? I really appreciate blonde girls. :smash: :brow:
Now talking about serious subjects, i would like to know an introductory book approaching nordic literature in general. Any suggestions?

It's rather long and imposing, but you won't find better than Daisy Neijmann's A History of Icelandic Literature.

[Griffith]

It's a beginning. Thanks, mate.

[Vonny]

What about scandinavian girls?? ... Any suggestions?

it's been on everyone's minds.

not only is the scenery stunning in Iceland, but even the single moms read to their children and encourage reading, and that's kinda a mainstay in learning to recognize allusions and archetypes (was that what they were called?) as well as correct mythology and the best imagery imaginable (so Egil chops up bodies but not the Tin Woodsman of Oz), and this provides for development of decent personalities, as well. From this beginning children rely much on reading, even if they also they watch quite a bit of tv and play video games, (the pre-existing foundation of face-to-face human contact, and reading, using the mental faculties to formulate imagery, then serves to neutralize the potentially damaging aspects of electronic stimuli), so the end result is people who are creative and not smart alecs ... granted, this is based on limited social research, but small samples can be statistically accurate.

[Helga]

if anyone is interested Iceland is the guest of honor at the Frankfurt book fair this year so you should find a few authors both male and female there.

http://www.buchmesse.de/en/guestofhonour/



but on the subject of reading here on the ice, it has actually been a hot subject here for a few weeks now, apparently fewer kids are reading for fun now than ever before and boys are very few who read for fun. There is a campaign of sort to increase interest in books. I know my kid loves it when I read to him and he is happy to go to bed every night because I always read for him first.

it is not perfect here on the ice but I think it starts with parents and they have to show kids it is fun to read.

we are unfortunately getting more and more influence from fast food and video game industry, I have heard people say we are getting a bit like 'little America' but I don't think that is true.

[Gregory Samsa]

They are some good Swedish authors and here is my favorites; I don’t know how good the translations are in English or how available there are.

August Strindberg
Selma Lagerlöf
Hjalmar Söderberg
Stig Dagerman
Tomas Tranströmer
Per Olov Enquist

[TheFifthElement]

Anyone read anything by Per Petterson? I'm quite tempted by Out Stealing Horses any views?

[Lokasenna]

I'm currently re-reading The Kalevala (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kalevala-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199538867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318775106&sr=8-1), Finland's national epic. Though I've always loved it, I'd forgotten just how beautiful a work it is. Intensely lyrical, and populated with incredible and vivid imagery, it's a stunner. It's currently serving as my antidote to having to read Heaney's Beowulf again for my undergrad classes.

Extremely recommended.

[Vonny]

There's a literary stunner in Finland, as well. I read how she was that little girl sitting on the edge of the playground alone, turning the pages with mittens on her hands... a beautiful work.

[ladderandbucket]

I'm currently re-reading The Kalevala (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kalevala-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199538867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318775106&sr=8-1), Finland's national epic. Though I've always loved it, I'd forgotten just how beautiful a work it is. Intensely lyrical, and populated with incredible and vivid imagery, it's a stunner. It's currently serving as my antidote to having to read Heaney's Beowulf again for my undergrad classes.

Extremely recommended.

I also enjoyed the Kalevala. Feels especially right when there is snow on the ground. Definately my favourite wintertime read.

You may be interested in a book called New Finnish Grammer by Diego Marani. It is set in Finland during WW2 and makes a lot of reference to the Kalevala. It basically does for Finnish folklore what countless other books have done for the Greek myths.

I wanted to mention it before in this thread but, well, I wasn't sure if Finland was part of Scandinavia...:blush:

[Annamariah]

There's a literary stunner in Finland, as well. I read how she was that little girl sitting on the edge of the playground alone, turning the pages with mittens on her hands... a beautiful work.

Indeed...

[LitNetIsGreat]

The Amazon hit men have targeted me with a book by Audur Ava Olafsdottir called The Greenhouse. It sounds interesting but one never knows, any takers?

I have put the Icelandic literature on ice as I got sucked into Chekhov and then my kindle arrived, but previously I did read a few more of the shorter epics. The Edda also stares at me angrily from my bookcase. I might read it next though as Mrs Neely wants to read the Frank Chalk book on my kindle.

[Vonny]

Indeed...

Nothing has made me smile :) like this in a really long time!

[Freudian Monkey]

I'm currently re-reading The Kalevala (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kalevala-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199538867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318775106&sr=8-1), Finland's national epic. Though I've always loved it, I'd forgotten just how beautiful a work it is. Intensely lyrical, and populated with incredible and vivid imagery, it's a stunner. It's currently serving as my antidote to having to read Heaney's Beowulf again for my undergrad classes.

Extremely recommended.

Good to hear that you have enjoyed reading Kalevala. I've never read the English translation and I've been wondering whether people find it appealing. Was the Oxford World's Classics edition written in old english - with "thous" and "shan'ts" - or was it a more contemporary take on Kalevala? Did it try to replicate the original Kalevala meter? Do you think that the foreign universities/high schools usually recommend the more prosaic translations over the lyrical ones?

[Lokasenna]

Good to hear that you have enjoyed reading Kalevala. I've never read the English translation and I've been wondering whether people find it appealing. Was the Oxford World's Classics edition written in old english - with "thous" and "shan'ts" - or was it a more contemporary take on Kalevala? Did it try to replicate the original Kalevala meter? Do you think that the foreign universities/high schools usually recommend the more prosaic translations over the lyrical ones?

Linguistically, it was written in good modern English, as I think all translations really ought to be. Of course, the Kalevala itself is a 19th century construct (albeit rooted in a much older tradition) - it would be a little odd to make it deliberately archaic.

It is a verse translation, and attempts (most of the time) to maintain some sense of the original form, though it never seems to sacrifice accuracy in the name of poetic diction, if I'm any judge. I don't, unfortunately, have much facility with Finnish - I read it for my own pleasure, rather than for my studies. I don't even know of a university department that teaches it, although one of my housemates did his undergraduate dissertation on the influence of the Kalevala on Tolkien, and I know my supervisor has lectured on it before. Both of them used the Oxford World Classics version, but I don't know what academic currency it has beyond that...

[Freudian Monkey]

Linguistically, it was written in good modern English, as I think all translations really ought to be. Of course, the Kalevala itself is a 19th century construct (albeit rooted in a much older tradition) - it would be a little odd to make it deliberately archaic.

It is a verse translation, and attempts (most of the time) to maintain some sense of the original form, though it never seems to sacrifice accuracy in the name of poetic diction, if I'm any judge. I don't, unfortunately, have much facility with Finnish - I read it for my own pleasure, rather than for my studies. I don't even know of a university department that teaches it, although one of my housemates did his undergraduate dissertation on the influence of the Kalevala on Tolkien, and I know my supervisor has lectured on it before. Both of them used the Oxford World Classics version, but I don't know what academic currency it has beyond that...

Thank you for your reply. The reason I thought Kalevala might be written in old english was for purely aesthetic reasons - maybe people would regard it as a more valuable piece of literature if it's language would be similar to, say, King James' Bible translation. It was a silly idea, I know. :) I have to try reading Kalevala's english translation some time.

Unfortunately Finnish is quite rarely been taught outside Finland. I have a Polish friend who was able to study Finnish in a high school in Warsaw and I believe that in most Northern and Central European countries there are some universities that teach it. There's only approx 6 million people in total speaking Finnish in the world, so it might not seem like an appealing language to learn if one doesn't live here.

[Lokasenna]

Unfortunately Finnish is quite rarely been taught outside Finland. I have a Polish friend who was able to study Finnish in a high school in Warsaw and I believe that in most Northern and Central European countries there are some universities that teach it. There's only approx 6 million people in total speaking Finnish in the world, so it might not seem like an appealing language to learn if one doesn't live here.

It is also, alas, one of the most difficult European languages to learn (only Hungarian really gives it a run for its money), because it really isn't remotely like anything else spoken on the continent. With a basic understanding of at least one germanic language and one romantic language, it's possible to read stuff in most European languages and get the gist of it - Finnish, I'm afraid, really isn't one of them.

[Annamariah]

Nothing has made me smile :) like this in a really long time!
I'm still not sure what to think about that.


Linguistically, it was written in good modern English, as I think all translations really ought to be. Of course, the Kalevala itself is a 19th century construct (albeit rooted in a much older tradition) - it would be a little odd to make it deliberately archaic.

Actually, compared to the Finnish we speak nowadays, Kalevala is pretty archaic, and not only because it's poetry. Written Finnish language is quite young and has gone through a lot of changes even in the past hundred years. Even though Mikael Agricola created written Finnish in 1500s, there was very little written Finnish around before 1800s. The first novel written in Finnish wasn't published until 1860s. What I'm trying to say is that the language of Kalevala compared to modern Finnish is almost as like Shakespeare's English compared to modern English. There are lots of words that have disappeared from the modern language altogether and some that are only used in some (Karelian) dialects.

[Vonny]

I'm still not sure what to think about that

I'm sure other people see what I did, if they've been here very long. It used to be that your picture/writings and remarks you made about yourself didn't match. I would think, "huh?" And then when you wrote "Indeed..." next to your picture - it matched, suddenly. You saw what everyone else sees. It's terrific to see that moment!

[Annamariah]

I'm sure other people see what I did, if they've been here very long. It used to be that your picture/writings and remarks you made about yourself didn't match. I would think, "huh?" And then when you wrote "Indeed..." next to your picture - it matched, suddenly. You saw what everyone else sees. It's terrific to see that moment!

I'm still not sure I saw what you think I did. I was just very surprised to find myself being mentioned in Scandinavian literature thread out of the blue like that :D

[Lokasenna]

Actually, compared to the Finnish we speak nowadays, Kalevala is pretty archaic, and not only because it's poetry. Written Finnish language is quite young and has gone through a lot of changes even in the past hundred years. Even though Mikael Agricola created written Finnish in 1500s, there was very little written Finnish around before 1800s. The first novel written in Finnish wasn't published until 1860s. What I'm trying to say is that the language of Kalevala compared to modern Finnish is almost as like Shakespeare's English compared to modern English. There are lots of words that have disappeared from the modern language altogether and some that are only used in some (Karelian) dialects.

Now that I did not know - thank you for the heads up! It's only very recently that I've started exploring Finnish history and literature, so I feel I've still got so much to learn!

[Annamariah]

Now that I did not know - thank you for the heads up! It's only very recently that I've started exploring Finnish history and literature, so I feel I've still got so much to learn!

You're welcome :) Besides, the history of Finnish language is hardly general knowledge outside Finland :D But for anyone studying Finnish as a second language it would be a huge achievement to learn it well enough to read the original Kalevala :rolleyes:

[CarpeNixta]

Lokasenna... thank you for the translation, I loved it and made me look into the Norse Mythology (that I admit I know nothing about, but it's very interesting)

Now looking into this thread I see a lot of names of authors and books, I'll see what can I find in my library to start reading.

[Lokasenna]

Lokasenna... thank you for the translation, I loved it and made me look into the Norse Mythology (that I admit I know nothing about, but it's very interesting)

Now looking into this thread I see a lot of names of authors and books, I'll see what can I find in my library to start reading.

You're very welcome! If you have any questions you think I may be able to answer, by all means ask them!

[CarpeNixta]

Lokasenna... I will ask, thanks.

I had a lucky find today, I went to see the the owner of the old book store to ask him to search me some Norse Myth books or similar, and he gave me one called "El Kalevala" I'll be reading it this week, he also promised to search for more books from Norway, Sweden, Iceland and all that are related.

[kensington]

This is an interesting thread!

[Veho]

I wish I'd seen this thread sooner - I've never read any Scandinavian or Nordic literature apart from one of Ibsen's plays and want to get in to it. Is anyone still reading any of this? It would be good to start a reading group for Nordic lit.