On Fashion

[G L Wilson]

At least my post was about fashion and not about the weather in England.

[Emil Miller]

At least my post was about fashion and not about the weather in England.

Yes and here it is again, silly and utterly pointless within the context of anything that has been previously expressed on the subject:

Fashion is just gay men playing dressups with flat-chested girls.

[G L Wilson]

Yes and here it is again, silly and utterly pointless within the context of anything that has been previously expressed on the subject:

Fashion is just gay men playing dressups with flat-chested girls.

So what? It's the truth, isn't it?

[Emil Miller]

So what? It's the truth, isn't it?

No it isn't, but you don't attempt to support your supposition with a valid argument, you simply interject and annoy anyone who might genuinely be trying to discuss the subject in a meaningful manner.

[OrphanPip]

So what? It's the truth, isn't it?

No, few of the major fashion designers are actually gay. Calvin Klein is bisexual, Ralph Lauren is straight, Oscar de la Renta is straight, Donatella Versace has a vagina...

Jean-Paul Gaultier is gay though.

[G L Wilson]

No, few of the major fashion designers are actually gay. Calvin Klein is bisexual, Ralph Lauren is straight, Oscar de la Renta is straight, Donatella Versace has a vagina...

Jean-Paul Gaultier is gay though.

It is a truism that the best chefs are fat men.
It is a truism that the best fashion designers are gay men. I don't blame them for dressing thin women, thin has been in since Byron.

[OrphanPip]

It is a truism that the best chefs are fat men.
It is a truism that the best fashion designers are gay men. I don't blame them for dressing thin women, thin has been in since Byron.

No, I think it's a media generated stereotype that arose from the flamboyancy and popularity of designers like Yves Saint Laurent. I'm sure gay men are disproportionately represented in the fashion industry, but they do not make up the majority of fashion designers, especially since women now play a prominent role in a formerly male dominated industry.

[Emil Miller]

Careful GLW, you are beginning to actually discuss the subject.

[G L Wilson]

Careful GLW, you are beginning to actually discuss the subject.

I throw out one-liners to generate debate, the heat that they draw doesn't matter.

[Emil Miller]

I throw out one-liners to generate debate, the heat that they draw doesn't matter.

Well you've got it wrong. One line input merely stultifies ongoing discussion.

[Alexander III]

"I throw out one-liners to generate debate"

On principle that is great and dandy, like if I were to say, I use human excrement to fertilize soil and increase the fertility of the soil. That statement is fine and dandy.

But you saying "I throw out one-liners to generate debate" and then looking at the majority of your one liners...

Is like me saying "I use human excriment to fertilize soil and increase the fertility of the soil" and then I go craping wherever I happen to be, and declare my mission successful because in 1/50 times when I crap publicly I manage to crap on some soil. The other times it is always cars, porches, boulevards, cafes, people children, the lamppost, the lake - but it's worth it because from time to time I manage to do it on a farm...

[G L Wilson]

Well you've got it wrong. One line input merely stultifies ongoing discussion.

Only if curiosity is dead.


"I throw out one-liners to generate debate"

On principle that is great and dandy, like if I were to say, I use human excrement to fertilize soil and increase the fertility of the soil. That statement is fine and dandy.

But you saying "I throw out one-liners to generate debate" and then looking at the majority of your one liners...

Is like me saying "I use human excriment to fertilize soil and increase the fertility of the soil" and then I go craping wherever I happen to be, and declare my mission successful because in 1/50 times when I crap publicly I manage to crap on some soil. The other times it is always cars, porches, boulevards, cafes, people children, the lamppost, the lake - but it's worth it because from time to time I manage to do it on a farm...

Alex, my dear, I think that you just crapped on your own head.

[Emil Miller]

Only if curiosity is dead.

I can assure you that nobody is curious about someone who, on his own admission, "creates chaos wherever he goes."

[G L Wilson]

I can assure you that nobody is curious about someone who, on his own admission, "creates chaos wherever he goes."

Not intentionally.

[Paulclem]

Well I think that the weather has a lot to do with clothes, and England has a lot of weather - meaning type...in one day usually...any time of the year...

:biggrin5:

[G L Wilson]

Well I think that the weather has a lot to do with clothes, and England has a lot of weather - meaning type...in one day usually...any time of the year...

:biggrin5:

The colours are suggestive of a darker mood.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well I think that the weather has a lot to do with clothes, and England has a lot of weather - meaning type...in one day usually...any time of the year...
Absolutely true. What's more nearly everyone in the UK plans their lives around the weather forecast even though it seems to be wrong nine times out of ten. Just today my brother cancelled tennis due to the threat of rain and it didn't oblige, despite massive black clouds and men in suits shaking their heads...

I really think that we would be better off without listening to the dictators at all. Instead we should just carry around rain macs or stuff them into a bag and have done with it, but then how would we talk to strangers?

Also why do the dictators tell you what the weather was like that same day - we know, we were there? :incazzato: Maybe that is the only thing they can get right?

Tomorrow's forecast:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/hi/news/newsid_7725000/7725418.stm

More lies and propaganda...

[Paulclem]

Yes - they are very accurate when it comes to telling you what's happened.

If we'd have listened to them last Wednesday, we wouldn't have gone to Leamington, had a lovely picnic there, had a ride on the boats and bought more books from the Works.

They're rubbish...but I still listen...

[G L Wilson]

Yes - they are very accurate when it comes to telling you what's happened.

If we'd have listened to them last Wednesday, we wouldn't have gone to Leamington, had a lovely picnic there, had a ride on the boats and bought more books from the Works.

They're rubbish...but I still listen...

This reminds me of a story that I heard about Cyclone Tracy. After it had flattened Darwin, people asked why the Aborigines had lit out of town before it hit and no-one else. The Aborigines said that they had heard about its approach on the radio and decided to bugger off quick. That's magic.

[Paulclem]

This reminds me of a story that I heard about Cyclone Tracy. After it had flattened Darwin, people asked why the Aborigines had lit out of town before it hit and no-one else. The Aborigines said that they had heard about its approach on the radio and decided to bugger off quick. That's magic.

:lol:

There was an instance in the UK when Michael Fish - good name for a weatherman - denied that there was a hurricane coming to England as one of his callers had just said.

It devastated parts of the South with Sevenoaks ending up with only one still standing. He's never lived it down.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I throw out one-liners to generate debate
You really suck at that, though. Maybe you should actually try discussing things.

[G L Wilson]

You really suck at that, though. Maybe you should actually try discussing things.

If you generate debate, you usually get to.

[G L Wilson]

I find sundresses incredibly sexy. I must be kinky or something.

[Varenne Rodin]

I like clothes that look like art, while showcasing feminine curves.

[G L Wilson]

I like boobs.

[MarkBastable]

MM: Maybe you should actually try discussing things.



If you generate debate, you usually get to.

When will you, then?

[prendrelemick]

I like boobs.


Nothing wrong with that. Self love is healthy.

[Varenne Rodin]

Nothing wrong with that. Self love is healthy.

Hahaha.

[G L Wilson]

I am a human being, and my boobs are not fun to play with.

Also, the small of a woman's back is very sexy too.

[Alexander III]

And to not so subtly maneuver the discussion back to a more on topic point - Juniper and Varenne and any other girls on the forum, I have a question. In regards to cologne or perfume (I know that cologne is just a weaker concentrate to perfume, and the two are separate things, much like a sport coat and a blazer are two separate things, but these pairs if words are commonly used interchangeably so, I will sue them interchangeable too)

To be blunt, what do you think of men when they scent themselves. Do you girls find it adds to the attraction. Do you think it should be worn only at night and in the day it is too much, or do you think it should be avoided at all times.

Personally I use a very light fruity one during the day, which is only noticeable if one leans close to my neck. At night, when I go out, I use a stronger one, which is a bit more noticeable and pungent in its scent, but still one must be close to smell it. There is nothing I find more vulgar in a man, who's perfume can be smelt from a foot or more away.

Personally when it comes to women, I find perfume really adds a whole new aspect. It increases my attraction to the girl quite substantially, especially if it is a good one. Of course I find it a turn-of when too much is used, or the wrong type is used according to the scenario. The right perfume, which matches the girls perfectly (for I think eveyr type of person based on the physical and the personality has certain scents which work better for them) - it creates in me a sense of infatuation.

On a less related note, Yes I am this type of guy:

A month ago, I was at a small cocktail party on the beach. I crossed the room with my drink, and threw it into an acquaintance's face. I yelled at him that I could smell his perfume from across the room and it was making me nauseous. Later that evening, while I was on the beach, he punched me in the face. I was drunk and fell down and was unable to get up for a while. My friend who was in a healthier state of mind, took revenge for me.

So yes I get very unnaturally touchy on these things.

[Varenne Rodin]

And to not so subtly maneuver the discussion back to a more on topic point - Juniper and Varenne and any other girls on the forum, I have a question. In regards to cologne or perfume (I know that cologne is just a weaker concentrate to perfume, and the two are separate things, much like a sport coat and a blazer are two separate things, but these pairs if words are commonly used interchangeably so, I will sue them interchangeable too)

To be blunt, what do you think of men when they scent themselves. Do you girls find it adds to the attraction. Do you think it should be worn only at night and in the day it is too much, or do you think it should be avoided at all times.

Personally I use a very light fruity one during the day, which is only noticeable if one leans close to my neck. At night, when I go out, I use a stronger one, which is a bit more noticeable and pungent in its scent, but still one must be close to smell it. There is nothing I find more vulgar in a man, who's perfume can be smelt from a foot or more away.

Personally when it comes to women, I find perfume really adds a whole new aspect. It increases my attraction to the girl quite substantially, especially if it is a good one. Of course I find it a turn-of when too much is used, or the wrong type is used according to the scenario. The right perfume, which matches the girls perfectly (for I think eveyr type of person based on the physical and the personality has certain scents which work better for them) - it creates in me a sense of infatuation.

On a less related note, Yes I am this type of guy:

A month ago, I was at a small cocktail party on the beach. I crossed the room with my drink, and threw it into an acquaintance's face. I yelled at him that I could smell his perfume from across the room and it was making me nauseous. Later that evening, while I was on the beach, he punched me in the face. I was drunk and fell down and was unable to get up for a while. My friend who was in a healthier state of mind, took revenge for me.

So yes I get very unnaturally touchy on these things.

This question, for me, is one of complexity. Firstly, a person must shower daily. Clean hair, clean skin, those are my favorite scents on a man or a woman. Clean clothes are likewise very important. As for perfumes and cologne, I haven't smelled many that I liked. The ones I have liked were so subtle that it was hard to discern whether their scent was from a bottled perfume, or from the person's hair conditioner, face wash, body wash, or laundry detergent. One should take caution that strong smelling bath scents do not clash with laundry or deodorant scents.

I'm not sure if this is a regional thing, but the times when I've noticed perfume, it was either on someone trying to cover poor hygiene, or someone who was overly made up and knocking me out with fragrance. All of this being said, it isn't out of the question if it's mild and clean. I also never ever want to taste it.

My favorite scents are warm and inviting. I knew a person who smelled like cinnamon cake and I quite enjoyed that. I don't wear perfume, but I find that people don't want to stop smelling my hair and skin if they are granted occasion to do so.

The mental picture of two men coming to blows over perfume is highly amusing. :)

[Paulclem]

Be careful with Alex - he's an olfactory psycho. He's great in a non-nasal environment like this one though. :biggrin5:

[G L Wilson]

Fashion is visual, sweat stinks.

[Alexander III]

Be careful with Alex - he's an olfactory psycho. He's great in a non-nasal environment like this one though. :biggrin5:

Alas the secret is out

By day I maintain the facade of the rich playboy Italian...

But it is all an act

For at night, my true nature reigns, as I patrol the streets and unleash justice upon those vile individuals wearing to little or to much perfume. I am Olfactoman. The night is mine. Beware.

[Varenne Rodin]

Hahaha.

[OrphanPip]

I hate cologne on men, makes me think of lawyers and accountants.

A mild aftershave can be pleasant though, it should never overwhelm you.

Working in a clinical environment, none of us are allowed to wear deodorant or perfumes at work, you can imagine how it can become nasty after a long day.

[G L Wilson]

A sweet-smelling woman sure makes you look.

[JuniperWoolf]

I actually haven't thought very much about cologne. The only situation that I can think of where it actually strikes me as unappealing is when the hockey players bathe in that Axe garbage which always makes me gag (especially if they've played recently, because then they have the Axe as an attempt to cover their pungent male hockey pad smell and the combo is revolting).

A male wearing something fruity wouldn't appeal to me, I'm quite sure. Sweet, fruity scents belong in the realm of the female. I have one male friend who wears a cologne that smells very salty and I really love it. The salty smell goes very well with men's natural body odors. I also don't mind Old Spice, it reminds me of my father and thus makes me relax around whoever is wearing it.

[Delta40]

I like Old Spice and Brut 33 - especially mixed with coke!

[OrphanPip]

I kind of like Old Spice too, it's got kind of an inoffensive masculine aspect to it. I also agree with Jun that Axe is pure garbage, I can't stand when people drench themselves in it.

[Buh4Bee]

I like a good smelling deodorant. Other than that, well, it's too much for the senses.

[Vonny]

Funny, I'm always thinking I want to smell him, but I've never thought in terms of cologne.

[OrphanPip]

I know a woman who says she likes men dirty and smelly haha. She's a bit nuts though.

[billl]

I know a woman who says she likes men dirty and smelly haha. She's a bit nuts though.

I remember hearing about an instance in which Napoleon sent ahead a message specifically asking Josephine to skip bathing the day before his return from battle (something like that). Not that I've ever been particularly focussed on enjoying that sort of "preparation", much less ever made a point of requesting it--but I'm not immune to its earthy allure when it comes about. I mean there might be exceptions, obviously. And good luck finding a woman who wouldn't rather wash up first every time, but still... Intriguing.

Old Spice (or Mennen, Brut, or whatever is marked down) for me, deodorant only, no anti-perspirant, and no cologne ever--although I have some Axe on hand, for "special occasions".

[G L Wilson]

Funk is supposed to make the French go crazy. I just think that they're crazy.

[Varenne Rodin]

I smelled one Axe scent one time (I'm told there are many varieties of Axe). It smelled like bug spray mixed with grape cough syrup. Uh...sexy?

[BienvenuJDC]

I smelled one Axe scent one time (I'm told there are many varieties of Axe). It smelled like bug spray mixed with grape cough syrup. Uh...sexy?

Please share...which smells are sexy to a woman?

[Vonny]

Please share...which smells are sexy to a woman?

You need a man first.

[BienvenuJDC]

You need a man first.

That is understood. It takes a lot to be a man. If a woman can understand that one is putting forth the efforts to be one, it is reasonable. But too many are looking for some super man who id flawless.

[MystyrMystyry]

I'm not big on deodorant, and I've never been recommended Palmolive Gold (is that still current in the wider world? It was in NZ last I checked), but I have an ancient inheritance bottle of Blue Stratus for shaving nicks which gets the occasional compliment/enquiry (once a week on average)

I probably smell like Cussons Imperial Leather more than anything else

(just got an idea for a new poll! 'What do Linetters smell like!?')

[G L Wilson]

Please share...which smells are sexy to a woman?

Baby s**t. I'm serious. There was a study done on it.

[Vonny]

Bien, try some frankencense

[BienvenuJDC]

Bien, try some frankencense

I only want to attract one.

[Varenne Rodin]

Please share...which smells are sexy to a woman?

I gave a rundown of my preferences a page or two ago, but I would like to add a few things.

No spray on fragrances of any kind, ever. If you have to apply fragrance at all, it shouldn't be something that's splashed on the hands and then on the face and body either.

I cannot stress enough the importance of fresh breath. It doesn't matter what a person smells like anywhere on their body if their mouth is yucky. Brush often, ladies and gents!

I grew up in a beach town, so the scent of coconut (not liked by everyone) gives me the warm fuzzies. I like Hawaiian Tropic's suntan lotion (not oil), but only for casual times. I agree with the others who like Old Spice. Spicy scents are much better than flowery ones. I like water inspired fragrances for night time events. A rule people can't go wrong with, in my opinion, is to make sure there isn't a scent on your body that smells like it would taste bad. If you smell like freshly baked cookies, I love you.

[Vonny]

I gave a rundown of my preferences a page or two ago, but I would like to add a few things.

No spray on fragrances of any kind, ever. If you have to apply fragrance at all, it shouldn't be something that's splashed on the hands and then on the face and body either.

I cannot stress enough the importance of fresh breath. It doesn't matter what a person smells like anywhere on their body if their mouth is yucky. Brush often, ladies and gents!

I grew up in a beach town, so the scent of coconut (not liked by everyone) gives me the warm fuzzies. I like Hawaiian Tropic's suntan lotion (not oil), but only for casual times. I agree with the others who like Old Spice. Spicy scents are much better than flowery ones. I like water inspired fragrances for night time events. A rule people can't go wrong with, in my opinion, is to make sure there isn't a scent on your body that smells like it would taste bad. If you smell like freshly baked cookies, I love you.

I'm dental crazy. Don't forget the floss. And the Sonicare. Is that how you spell it? I'm not into gadgets much but I love my electric toothbrush. I use a regular toothbrush too. Go to then dentist every 6 months for a check up and cleaning. Well, I have more advice, but I'll shut up! I drive people nuts with this.

My favorite scents are trees, such as pine and cedar. I don't know how anyone could wear them though.

[MarkBastable]

My favorite scents are trees, such as pine and cedar.


Well, depends on the tree (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHze0SqB5Zg). (This is not a clip you'd want to have to explain to a six-year-old, by the way.)

[Vonny]

I don't think I'll click that link.

[G L Wilson]

I love the smell of bread baking.

[prendrelemick]

This question, for me, is one of complexity. Firstly, a person must shower daily. Clean hair, clean skin, those are my favorite scents on a man or a woman. Clean clothes are likewise very important. As for perfumes and cologne, I haven't smelled many that I liked. The ones I have liked were so subtle that it was hard to discern whether their scent was from a bottled perfume, or from the person's hair conditioner, face wash, body wash, or laundry detergent. One should take caution that strong smelling bath scents do not clash with laundry or deodorant scents.

I'm not sure if this is a regional thing, but the times when I've noticed perfume, it was either on someone trying to cover poor hygiene, or someone who was overly made up and knocking me out with fragrance. All of this being said, it isn't out of the question if it's mild and clean. I also never ever want to taste it.

My favorite scents are warm and inviting. I knew a person who smelled like cinnamon cake and I quite enjoyed that. I don't wear perfume, but I find that people don't want to stop smelling my hair and skin if they are granted occasion to do so.

The mental picture of two men coming to blows over perfume is highly amusing. :)

A woman's sun kissed hair smells intoxicating to us blokes.

[MarkBastable]

A woman's sun kissed hair smells intoxicating to us blokes.

How would someone who lives in Yorkshire know that?

Then again, down here in the tropics of London, this is the first morning of the year where it's felt a bit autumnal. It's the kind of weather that makes me feel I ought to be copying out a new homework schedule and covering a blue exercise book in sticky-back plastic.

[Vonny]

Varenne: "I don't wear perfume, but I find that people don't want to stop smelling my hair and skin if they are granted occasion to do so."

Oh that's nice Varenne. I hadn't read it until prendrelemick copied it. I don't wear perfume either.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'm not big on deodorant, and I've never been recommended Palmolive Gold (is that still current in the wider world? It was in NZ last I checked), but I have an ancient inheritance bottle of Blue Stratus for shaving nicks which gets the occasional compliment/enquiry (once a week on average)

I probably smell like Cussons Imperial Leather more than anything else

(just got an idea for a new poll! 'What do Linetters smell like!?')

I like this idea!


I'm dental crazy. Don't forget the floss. And the Sonicare. Is that how you spell it? I'm not into gadgets much but I love my electric toothbrush. I use a regular toothbrush too. Go to then dentist every 6 months for a check up and cleaning. Well, I have more advice, but I'll shut up! I drive people nuts with this.

My favorite scents are trees, such as pine and cedar. I don't know how anyone could wear them though.

Sonicare, yes. I've got one.

You're close to being allowed to kiss me, Vonny.

[Vonny]

Sonicare, yes. I've got one.

You're close to being allowed to kiss me, Vonny.

What??? :lol:

[billl]

How would someone who lives in Yorkshire know that?

Then again, down here in the tropics of London, this is the first morning of the year where it's felt a bit autumnal. It's the kind of weather that makes me feel I ought to be copying out a new homework schedule and covering a blue exercise book in sticky-back plastic.

It was 105 degrees in South Texas today, and that's the sort of weather that makes me feel I ought to have run the deodorant under my arms a couple more times probably.

[Varenne Rodin]

What??? :lol:

I mean...what? Haha.

"Jokes, I got 'em." - Master Shake


A woman's sun kissed hair smells intoxicating to us blokes.

It IS a very nice scent. I rather enjoy the smell of my own hair.

[Vonny]

It IS a very nice scent. I rather enjoy the smell of my own hair.

You're fun Varenne. I'm glad you're here.

[Emil Miller]

I don't go for all that pouffy stuff. I used to smell of tobacco and whisky but since I gave up smoking, I just smell of whisky.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I don't go for all that pouffy stuff. I used to smell of tobacco and whisky but since I gave up smoking, I just smell of whisky.

That's what real men smell like!

I use a little aftershave, Lynx Africa, but as with all the Lynx products they don't smell after 5 minutes unless you drown yourself in it. (I didn't buy it, someone always buys you Lynx at Christmas.) I might get myself some of that Old Spice stuff though, if the chicks are hot for it...:biggrin5: As with clothes, I've never really paid that much attention to smelly products in the past.

[Emil Miller]

That's what real men smell like!

I use a little aftershave, Lynx Africa, but as with all the Lynx products they don't smell after 5 minutes unless you drown yourself in it. (I didn't buy it, someone always buys you Lynx at Christmas.) I might get myself some of that Old Spice stuff though, if the chicks are hot for it...:biggrin5: As with clothes, I've never really paid that much attention to smelly products in the past.

That advert for Brut with Henry Cooper in the shower always used to make me laugh when he urged the viewer to: "Splash it all over." Well he would say that wouldn't he?
Is Old Spice still on the market? I remember years ago that it was big in Germany and I seldom got into a lift or a tram without someone wearing it. It's an interesting scent but for natural smelling things I don't think there's anything better than honeysuckle on a warm day.

[G L Wilson]

I love the scent of the sea through Peppermint trees and the look of Paperbarks.

[Varenne Rodin]

You're fun Varenne. I'm glad you're here.

I'm glad you're here too, Vonny. We both have names that begin with the letter V. It's important, ya know? For commonality. ;)


That's what real men smell like!

I use a little aftershave, Lynx Africa, but as with all the Lynx products they don't smell after 5 minutes unless you drown yourself in it. (I didn't buy it, someone always buys you Lynx at Christmas.) I might get myself some of that Old Spice stuff though, if the chicks are hot for it...:biggrin5: As with clothes, I've never really paid that much attention to smelly products in the past.

I like vanilla lavender laundry detergent, but the scentless stuff works too. I've never heard of Lynx Africa. The name reminds me of "Sex Panther" from the movie "Anchorman."

I agree about the honeysuckle, Emil.

[Emil Miller]

I'm glad you're here too, Vonny. We both have names that begin with the letter V. It's important, ya know? For commonality. ;)

Yes but yours is named after a Paris street or its Metro Station.

[Varenne Rodin]

Yes but yours is named after a Paris street or its Metro Station.

After the place where Rodin's 'Thinker' sits. You raise a good point. I'm sorry, Vonny.

[Emil Miller]

After the place where Rodin's 'Thinker' sits. You raise a good point. I'm sorry, Vonny.

Well I didn't mean to disappoint her but since Vonny probably isn't her real name anyway, I'm sure she won't mind. Rodin's thinker is in the garden of the Rodin Museum in the Rue Varenne.

[prendrelemick]

That's what real men smell like!

I use a little aftershave, Lynx Africa, but as with all the Lynx products they don't smell after 5 minutes unless you drown yourself in it. (I didn't buy it, someone always buys you Lynx at Christmas.) I might get myself some of that Old Spice stuff though, if the chicks are hot for it...:biggrin5: As with clothes, I've never really paid that much attention to smelly products in the past.


Remember that Hi Karate, it came with Matial Arts instructions to fight off all those women who would find you irresistable. (I never needed them for some reason.)

[Emil Miller]

I really don't see the need for manufacturers to make their products smell of anything. I bought some hair cream that was very good but it smells just like a Turkish brothel. Why not sell it without the scent?

[prendrelemick]

We use unscented soap and shampoo, and I do find myself smelling soaps in other peoples bathrooms with some relish.

[Varenne Rodin]

I really don't see the need for manufacturers to make their products smell of anything. I bought some hair cream that was very good but it smells just like a Turkish brothel. Why not sell it without the scent?

Garnier has a new hair smoothing cream that has no scent. Garnier products come in bright green containers. All of them smell fruity except for the new one.

For scentless facial moisturizers, Cetaphil is the best brand I've found. A little on a cotton ball goes a long way.

A good scentless hand and body lotion is Vaseline intensive rescue moisture locking lotion. It's hypoallergenic.

I decided to cover a bunch of stuff at once. :D

[Lokasenna]

I used to use cheap deoderant - basically whatever was on offer at the supermarket when I needed a refill. Recently though, a friend introduced me to this awesome stuff - pitrok - that they sell in little bottles in the chemists. It's completely odourless, but also negates any body odours as well - I have to admit, I'm impressed. I actually think it's nice to smell of nothing - there's little as off-putting as being overcome by someone else's lily-of-the-valley answer to shock-and-awe.

I think some people are over-keen on plastering all sorts of weird chemicals over themselves. It is perfectly possible to be clean and presentable with a minimum of fuss.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I didn't get the Old Spice in the end.:frown2: Whenever I am in town shopping all I want to do is get home as quickly as possible. (I did get some nice fish and steak from the market though.)


I used to use cheap deoderant - basically whatever was on offer at the supermarket when I needed a refill. Recently though, a friend introduced me to this awesome stuff - pitrok - that they sell in little bottles in the chemists. It's completely odourless, but also negates any body odours as well - I have to admit, I'm impressed. I actually think it's nice to smell of nothing - there's little as off-putting as being overcome by someone else's lily-of-the-valley answer to shock-and-awe.

I think some people are over-keen on plastering all sorts of weird chemicals over themselves. It is perfectly possible to be clean and presentable with a minimum of fuss.

Yes I use Sure deodorant for the same reason, it does the job and it smells of nothing. Plus all the other ones I've tried don't work very well on me; it's heavy stuff this running around playing tennis all the time. I might start thinking about smelly stuff as well though?


Remember that Hi Karate, it came with Matial Arts instructions to fight off all those women who would find you irresistable. (I never needed them for some reason.)

No I've never come across that one before, but it ties in with the Lynx advert below.



I've never heard of Lynx Africa. The name reminds me of "Sex Panther" from the movie "Anchorman."

Oh it's mass marketed stuff aimed at teens and 20-30 year old men, as you can see from the advert below. At Christmas you can't move for the stuff.

This is what I have to put up with every time I leave the house::biggrin5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pio5Uiupa8Q

[Emil Miller]

Garnier has a new hair smoothing cream that has no scent. Garnier products come in bright green containers. All of them smell fruity except for the new one.

Actually I don't know what a brothel smells like, well not a Turkish one anyway, and I wouldn't use any hair cream at all if it wasn't for the fact that I have what's known as 'fly away hair' and some things needed to keep it from looking like a haystack.

[Varenne Rodin]

I didn't get the Old Spice in the end.:frown2: Whenever I am in town shopping all I want to do is get home as quickly as possible. (I did get some nice fish and steak from the market though.)



Yes I use Sure deodorant for the same reason, it does the job and it smells of nothing. Plus all the other ones I've tried don't work very well on me; it's heavy stuff this running around playing tennis all the time. I might start thinking about smelly stuff as well though?



No I've never come across that one before, but it ties in with the Lynx advert below.



Oh it's mass marketed stuff aimed at teens and 20-30 year old men, as you can see from the advert below. At Christmas you can't move for the stuff.

This is what I have to put up with every time I leave the house::biggrin5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pio5Uiupa8Q

That looks just like Axe adverts. Ha. Silly stuff.

[Emil Miller]

Whenever I am in town shopping all I want to do is get home as quickly as possible. (I did get some nice fish and steak from the market though.)

This is what I have to put up with every time I leave the house::biggrin5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pio5Uiupa8Q

That's exactly how I feel about shopping.

Was that the beach at Skegness in the video ?

[LitNetIsGreat]

That's exactly how I feel about shopping.

Was that the beach at Skegness in the video ?

Yes it was the beach at Skegness, only they got rid of the mobility scooters for the shot - they're absolutely everywhere!

It used to be that only old or disabled people used mobility scooters. Now they are becoming common get-abouts for the fat and/or lazy. They use them to ride to the bookies and to Witheredspoons and back again.

Of course it is not a good idea to tarnish them all with the same brush. My grandfather has one and is a genuine case. Also, I remember once when I was on the bus going into town and I saw a large middle-aged chap sat on a mobility scooter going down the tramlines on the other side of the road munching on a sausage roll. I thought, "lazy get", (a common phrase of my brother's) but when I looked down the poor sod had only got one leg!:eek: Still they are eveywhere.

Yes, I can't stand shopping. I've been meaning to get another pair of jeans for about three months as I only have two pairs. (Well I have another but that's got paint on.) Alex's thread has inspired me to think about buying more clothes/smells but putting that into practice is proving hard!

[Emil Miller]

Yes it was the beach at Skegness, only they got rid of the mobility scooters for the shot - they're absolutely everywhere!

It used to be that only old or disabled people used mobility scooters. Now they are becoming common get-abouts for the fat and/or lazy. They use them to ride to the bookies and to Witheredspoons and back again.

Of course it is not a good idea to tarnish them all with the same brush. My grandfather has one and is a genuine case. Also, I remember once when I was on the bus going into town and I saw a large middle-aged chap sat on a mobility scooter going down the tramlines on the other side of the road munching on a sausage roll. I thought, "lazy get", (a common phrase of my brother's) but when I looked down the poor sod had only got one leg!:eek: Still they are eveywhere.

Yes, I can't stand shopping. I've been meaning to get another pair of jeans for about three months as I only have two pairs. (Well I have another but that's got paint on.) Alex's thread has inspired me to think about buying more clothes/smells but putting that into practice is proving hard!

When I think of mobility scooters, I recall going to a cash point in a very nice area when one such vehicle drew up and a fat, hale and hearty driver beat me to the cash machine before speeding off in the opposite direction. The government wants to reduce the number of people claiming disability allowance but the question that should be answered is to how we got into this state in the first place and who are the people who brought it about ?
As for shopping, I need a new pair of shoes and the thought of trailing around shoe shops is totally depressing.

[Delta40]

shopping is a b itch at my local mall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNbQPk_6UWQ

[LitNetIsGreat]

When I think of mobility scooters, I recall going to a cash point in a very nice area when one such vehicle drew up and a fat, hale and hearty driver beat me to the cash machine before speeding off in the opposite direction. The government wants to reduce the number of people claiming disability allowance but the question that should be answered is to how we got into this state in the first place and who are the people who brought it about ?
As for shopping, I need a new pair of shoes and the thought of trailing around shoe shops is totally depressing.

Yes interesting questions, though I know your thoughts on it as I read your book. Another point lies in the battle against the upcoming obesity crisis. When people can't even be bothered to walk down the road, what's to be expected?* They are becoming the fashion accessory of the lazy.

* Disclaimer before someone bites my head off, I know that it is not all of them as expressed but there is a hell of a lot of fat lazy people buzzing past you at 8 mph on those things.

[JuniperWoolf]

. I actually think it's nice to smell of nothing

Have you ever read purfume? Everyone who meets the main character feels uncomfortable and knows that he has no soul because he has no body odour. Smell is important, it adds a very important part of our identity. Pip mentioned earlier that he knows a girl who likes the smell of males who are grubby. I don't like them when they're gross, but it's nice when they just smell like themselves.

It's cool too, because everyone has their own smell and they all smell different from each other. Actually, I take pride in my ability to recognize most of my friends and family members by smell. I'm like a canine. Or a truffle pig. :piggy:

[Varenne Rodin]

Have you ever read purfume? Everyone who meets the main character feels uncomfortable and knows that he has no soul because he has no body odour. Smell is important, it adds a very important part of our identity. Pip mentioned earlier that he knows a girl who likes the smell of males who are grubby. I don't like them when they're gross, but it's nice when they just smell like themselves.

It's cool too, because everyone has their own smell and they all smell different from each other. Actually, I take pride in my ability to recognize most of my friends and family members by smell. I'm like a canine. Or a truffle pig. :piggy:

I like when someone gives me a hug, and I smell nothing but their clean shirt. I have to agree with Lokasenna on this one.

[G L Wilson]

I love babies and dragonflies.

[Varenne Rodin]

I love babies and dragonflies.

Well, aren't you filled to the brim with love? You're like a glitter rainbow that vomits unicorns. I never knew you had such a sensitive side. You're a little sweety. Do you embroider circlets of cloth with inspirational phrases? You strike me as a country kitchen type of girl or boy in this new light. Pastel peach light.

I sound sarcastic, but I think you're funny. :D

[Emil Miller]

Yes interesting questions, though I know your thoughts on it as I read your book. Another point lies in the battle against the upcoming obesity crisis. When people can't even be bothered to walk down the road, what's to be expected?* They are becoming the fashion accessory of the lazy.

* Disclaimer before someone bites my head off, I know that it is not all of them as expressed but there is a hell of a lot of fat lazy people buzzing past you at 8 mph on those things.

I was speaking about this only recently and there is no doubt that the government, via the media, are waging a propaganda campaign against obesity and lack of exercise generally, but so far it seems to have resulted mostly in young women running around the streets who are the kind who ask: "Does my bum look big in this?" Which in many cases is a rhetorical question. However, the kind of grossness that one sees in the UK now is the result of years of self-indulgence. I see people eating on buses and underground trains and ask myself why don't they wait until they get home? The advent of fast food shops has a lot to answer for and looking at the grotesque bellies on a large part of the male population makes me realise that we have now reached the stage where people have jettisoned self-respect.

[prendrelemick]

There was an interesting documentry on the telly recently. There is a strong and undeniable link between a high Fat to bodyweight ratio and a low birthweight. In India this is a real problem, they have thin/fat people - that is people who are thin but with the same fat to bodywieght ratio as a seriously obese westener, leading to the same health problems.

I suppose my point is, that as usual - it's complicated.

[Emil Miller]

There was an interesting documentry on the telly recently. There is a strong and undeniable link between a high Fat to bodyweight ratio and a low birthweight. In India this is a real problem, they have thin/fat people - that is people who are thin but with the same fat to bodywieght ratio as a seriously obese westener, leading to the same health problems.

I suppose my point is, that as usual - it's complicated.

Yes that may be correct but as far as the UK goes it's pretty clear that overeating is the cause of obesity because the availability of food has greatly increased during the last thirty years or so. Hardly a day goes by without adverts for another takeaway coming through the letterbox and the multiplicity of cooking programmes on TV is ridiculous. What I don't understand is why, when people see themselves becoming gross, don't they control their food intake. I would rather starve than go up another waist size, because there are enough fatties on the streets already without adding to the problem.

[Paulclem]

Yes that may be correct but as far as the UK goes it's pretty clear that overeating is the cause of obesity because the availability of food has greatly increased during the last thirty years or so. Hardly a day goes by without adverts for another takeaway coming through the letterbox and the multiplicity of cooking programmes on TV is ridiculous. What I don't understand is why, when people see themselves becoming gross, don't they control their food intake. I would rather starve than go up another waist size, because there are enough fatties on the streets already without adding to the problem.

I think it's the other way around. There is more leisure time now because there are lots of labour saving devices - most prominantly cars. Non of us are working on stuff like they used to, and it all took much more time too. It's definately the case that a readjustment is needed, but the problem has not been anticipated rather than it has been created by just over eating. It's a shift in the value judgement.

[MystyrMystyry]

I don't see why they can't supercharge scooters to make them a viable alternative to city commuting, and slowly outlaw cars completely - especially when you see so many with just a driver and no passengers

You could have the footpaths reserved for scooters, and rip up the roads to plant strips of forest - there'd be no room for pedestrians, but you wouldn't need them on the footpaths, and if they want they can nature walk where the roads used to be

Instead of blowing out filth the streets would be blowing out pure oxygen


Ah, If I were emperor of the world...

[Emil Miller]

I think it's the other way around. There is more leisure time now because there are lots of labour saving devices - most prominantly cars. Non of us are working on stuff like they used to, and it all took much more time too. It's definately the case that a readjustment is needed, but the problem has not been anticipated rather than it has been created by just over eating. It's a shift in the value judgement.

Neely touched on this earlier. If people spend their leisure time slumped in front of a TV and use vehicles for short journeys instead of walking, they will not work off their food intake and will continue to expand. A reduction in eating accompanied by some exercise would be beneficial to many people in those countries where a superfluity of food is often, though not always, the root cause of the problem.

[TheFifthElement]

I bet looting and rioting burns a few calories ;)

[Emil Miller]

I bet looting and rioting burns a few calories ;)

Yes and so does its remedy, as Redheaded's post clearly demonstrates.

Terror, fear, extreme ****-kicking, teargas, rubber bullets & tazers on the bollocks are the best methods to use on rioting looters.

[MystyrMystyry]

Good point! If they'd done that on the Normans there wouldn't have been any rioting looters to speak of...

[Varenne Rodin]

I don't see why they can't supercharge scooters to make them a viable alternative to city commuting, and slowly outlaw cars completely - especially when you see so many with just a driver and no passengers

You could have the footpaths reserved for scooters, and rip up the roads to plant strips of forest - there'd be no room for pedestrians, but you wouldn't need them on the footpaths, and if they want they can nature walk where the roads used to be

Instead of blowing out filth the streets would be blowing out pure oxygen


Ah, If I were emperor of the world...

That's a pretty cool idea. Could we still have bicycle lanes somewhere? I like to ride bikes and rollerskate.

[Paulclem]

Neely touched on this earlier. If people spend their leisure time slumped in front of a TV and use vehicles for short journeys instead of walking, they will not work off their food intake and will continue to expand. A reduction in eating accompanied by some exercise would be beneficial to many people in those countries where a superfluity of food is often, though not always, the root cause of the problem.

It's true that a little exercise instead of riding will be beneficial - but is it a fair assessment of the situation? Of course it will fit some profiles, but people work the longest hours in the UK than in the rest of Europe, and work further away from their homes to achieve the income they want. They then have to commute sitting on their backsides back to the family home for an hour or more in the traffic. They may work a five or six day week. Their partner may also work, but have to pick up the kids from school and fit it into a busy schedule.

Work is nothing like it used to be. Often it is using IT, or the phone, and is not like the many manual jobs we used to have to do.

So this all takes time. Is it any wonder that conveniance foods are consumed more widely, and people do slump in front of the TV or computer?

The biggest thing is the car though. It enables people to reasonably get to work miles away, with the possibility that if the traffic is bad it will double the time. It's a habit. All the car owners on our street never walk round to the shops. They probably never go to our local shops because in a few minutes they can be at the big supermarket. Our neighbour - who also doesn't drive - commented to my wife today that there were only old people living on our estate. My wife pointed out that there are all ages, and probably a lot more youngr ones, but that she will never see them as they go everywhere by car.

[MystyrMystyry]

Cars are a freedom machine. Most teens can't wait to get their license because it's their first taste of the sense of independence - being able to escape home, ritual and rigmarole - but still get to wherever on the comfort of a flying enclosed sofa. Where bikes are fine up to that point, a car says hey, I may still live at home, but I can get out whenever I want.

Often the duty and responsibility involved in working to pay for it is enough, while others see it as the first step in getting a date - whichever reason once you get the taste for the possibilities of an open road it's hard to kick.

I have a bike, but sometimes it requires a total effort of will to get on it, much more to psyche into a great distance, because however far there's still going to be the equally long journey home. It must be a perfect day, rewarding destination(s), and often a plan of the route and estimated times of arrival.

With a car it's get in, buy lunch, get sidetracked, listen to music, chat on the phone, and still have time left for visiting and more lunch.

[OrphanPip]

I didn't bother to get my license until I was in my 20s, even so I can't afford parking in the city anyway.

[MystyrMystyry]

You don't know what you're missing! After traffic violations and speeding fines, filling up and third party, that's the most expensive thing you can do with a car!

[cl154576]

It's true that a little exercise instead of riding will be beneficial - but is it a fair assessment of the situation? Of course it will fit some profiles, but people work the longest hours in the UK than in the rest of Europe, and work further away from their homes to achieve the income they want. They then have to commute sitting on their backsides back to the family home for an hour or more in the traffic. They may work a five or six day week. Their partner may also work, but have to pick up the kids from school and fit it into a busy schedule.

Work is nothing like it used to be. Often it is using IT, or the phone, and is not like the many manual jobs we used to have to do.

So this all takes time. Is it any wonder that conveniance foods are consumed more widely, and people do slump in front of the TV or computer?

I have little sympathy for people who complain they are too busy to exercise. Most people have ten minutes to spare, however busy they are, and if they really don't they can get up ten minutes earlier. Ten minutes of running makes quite a difference.

I find that many people use lack of time as an excuse because they consider exercise tedious.

Exercise can be very addicting even. I used to live off runner's high (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/health/nutrition/27best.html).


Many runners have had the opportunity to experience a state of euphoria while running. When a person is asked about runner's high they typically will say that it a pleasant state that a runner might experience after a certain distance. This in fact may not be true for only runners though. Skiers, surfers, football players and wrestlers all have "highs" or moments when they feel they are working to their maximum potential and feeling on top of the world.
Many people have related runner's high to the feeling of an orgasm. At this time, the body and mind are both highly stimulated and seem to elevate a person's senses.

I fancy it's healthier than the typical alcohol and drugs.

[Vonny]

I run. I know the high. I wouldn't say it's quite as you describe cl15... though it varies greatly depending on who you're thinking of while you run!

I'm like Neely, I still like my alcohol, which may be a good thing for me, since alcohol packs a lot of calories...

For the time being, my doctor says that I must limit my running to 2 miles per day. If you distance run, it can be difficult to eat enough, to keep up with the calorie burn.

Varenne, I also ride my bike and I like to skate. I don't bike ride in the city, though. And I haven't skated for a while.

And no, Vonny isn't my name, and I hate it! I gave no thought to my name when I registered because I never thought I'd write here.

[Varenne Rodin]

I run. I know the high. I wouldn't say it's quite as you describe cl15... though it varies greatly depending on who you're thinking of while you run!

I'm like Neely, I still like my alcohol, which may be a good thing for me, since alcohol packs a lot of calories...

For the time being, my doctor says that I must limit my running to 2 miles per day. If you distance run, it can be difficult to eat enough, to keep up with the calorie burn.

Varenne, I also ride my bike and I like to skate. I don't bike ride in the city, though. And I haven't skated for a while.

And no, Vonny isn't my name, and I hate it! I gave no thought to my name when I registered because I never thought I'd write here.

I like running too. It's hard to do where I'm living now, but I hike/climb. I live on a mountain top. The elevation is a little over 6000 feet. My mailbox is down at the bottom. I could drive my car to check the mail, but the workout is outstanding. Some of the grades are nearly vertical. I'm a vegetarian, so eating enough can be tricky. I drink protein shakes. I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner now and then.

Varenne isn't my real name either. I like Vonny. It's not bad. You should keep it.

[cl154576]

I run. I know the high. I wouldn't say it's quite as you describe cl15... though it varies greatly depending on who you're thinking of while you run!

I'm like Neely, I still like my alcohol, which may be a good thing for me, since alcohol packs a lot of calories...

For the time being, my doctor says that I must limit my running to 2 miles per day. If you distance run, it can be difficult to eat enough, to keep up with the calorie burn.

Varenne, I also ride my bike and I like to skate. I don't bike ride in the city, though. And I haven't skated for a while.

And no, Vonny isn't my name, and I hate it! I gave no thought to my name when I registered because I never thought I'd write here.

Naturally the experience varies from person to person; I was only copying from a random article.

For cross country at my grade level we run a two mile course but I like to do five or so on my own, especially in the winter, and especially when it's raining – I enjoy feeling my sweat sting from the cold. How do you prefer to run?

About calorie burn, my brother is older and his team averages 70 mi a week. His coach recommends 2 grams of carbohydrates and 1 gram of protein for every pound in your body, and any amount of healthy fat.

Please ignore me if I have wandered quite off-topic ...

I like both your usernames. After time they seem to fit.

[Vonny]

I'm also vegetarian, and I hike on weekends when the weather is good. I run in the summer early in the mornings if it's a hot day, otherwise in the afternoon, and in the winter I climb stairs. I don't drink alcohol daily - I'm careful with it, though it's tempting lately because it does make me feel better!

I remembered that I have a bottle of cologne - Opium by Yves Saint Laurent. It's kind of spicy. I use it in my bedroom sometimes, but I just don't like to wear it.

cl I'm always off topic myself. I can't run in rain because my feet get wet and they blister easily. I don't like to run in the cold. I ski some but I don't run in winter. I don't tolerate the cold well. Also, there's usually too much ice and snow to do anything except trudge through snow in winter - which I do a lot! I used to make a lot of shakes with yogurt. I really need to start eating/drinking better. Actually drinking is much easier than eating. Thanks for reminding me you two.


Also about scents, I hate all of the air-fresheners and scented this and that, and pot pouri (however you spell that) I'm sick of that stuff.

[Varenne Rodin]

Naturally the experience varies from person to person; I was only copying from a random article.

For cross country at my grade level we run a two mile course but I like to do five or so on my own, especially in the winter, and especially when it's raining – I enjoy feeling my sweat sting from the cold. How do you prefer to run?

About calorie burn, my brother is older and his team averages 70 mi a week. His coach recommends 2 grams of carbohydrates and 1 gram of protein for every pound in your body, and any amount of healthy fat.

Please ignore me if I have wandered quite off-topic ...

I like both your usernames. After time they seem to fit.

Thank you, and oh! Running in rain! I would have been in big trouble if not for rain running. I had the misfortune of living in Miami for two years. I tried to figure out which times of the day were best for running. It was impossible, blistering hot, densely humid, and the mosquito swarms were unbelievable. One day I ran in the rain to avoid the bugs. People told me I would get sick, but I never did. It was the best I ever felt in Florida. I would get home completely drenched.

[Vonny]

Thank you, and oh! Running in rain! I would have been in big trouble if not for rain running. I had the misfortune of living in Miami for two years. I tried to figure out which times of the day were best for running. It was impossible, blistering hot, densely humid, and the mosquito swarms were unbelievable. One day I ran in the rain to avoid the bugs. People told me I would get sick, but I never did. It was the best I ever felt in Florida. I would get home completely drenched.

You are very tough!! There's no way I could do this. I couldn't live in the South, with that heat and humidity. That is miserable. And those bugs. I couldn't do it, I'd be in a mental hospital! My brother lived in Texas for a while, and since he has asthma, he didn't get a full breath of air the entire time he was there, even with his inhaler.

I won't ask where you live now, but 6000 elevation, wow! That's how it was for my brother in Wyoming and he had that same climb. He seemed to notice that the oxygen was thin at 6000 and he had some trouble breathing. Now he's on the Oregon Coast and he can breathe.

Leave it to me to get totally off topic!

[Varenne Rodin]

You are very tough!! There's no way I could do this. I couldn't live in the South, with that heat and humidity. That is miserable. And those bugs. I couldn't do it, I'd be in a mental hospital! My brother lived in Texas for a while, and since he has asthma, he didn't get a full breath of air the entire time he was there, even with his inhaler.

I won't ask where you live now, but 6000 elevation, wow! That's how it was for my brother in Wyoming and he had that same climb. He seemed to notice that the oxygen was thin at 6000 and he had some trouble breathing. Now he's on the Oregon Coast and he can breathe.

Leave it to me to get totally off topic!

Much as I tried to adapt, I couldn't stand Miami. Maybe moving to a mountain house was my answer to the flatness of the Florida Keys. Plus, this climate is incredibly dry and breezy. I love it.

I'm so glad your brother found a place to be that doesn't bother his asthma too much! I've heard Oregon is quite lovely.

Getting back to the topic, I can't stand "pajama jeans" or "jeggings." When did spandex come back into style? Why did it happen?

[Vonny]

Much as I tried to adapt, I couldn't stand Miami. Maybe moving to a mountain house was my answer to the flatness of the Florida Keys. Plus, this climate is incredibly dry and breezy. I love it.

I'm so glad your brother found a place to be that doesn't bother his asthma too much! I've heard Oregon is quite lovely.

Getting back to the topic, I can't stand "pajama jeans" or "jeggings." When did spandex come back into style? Why did it happen?

A mountain house does sound nice, although here it would mean a very treacherous road in winter. I don't think spandex is in style where I am, at least not now. I hate to say it around Wilson but I wear a lot of sundresses, or else shorts. I like my dresses the way you said, kind of form-fitting, but I don't wear anything snug in summer. I like to feel the air around my body after being under layers of clothing all winter. I wear sandals and carry the smallest handbag I can find. I'd never wear something binding, such as a corset. I'm not sure what a corset would do for me anyway, since I'm not as well-endowed as the photos on here. I'm not flat anymore either, I'm in-between and happy this way. Those huge breasts look good on other women, and they can have them, along with the men who are obsessed with them.

Out here in the West we are very casual - here probably more so than California. Everyone wears whatever they are wearing to the lake, so it's a lot of rather loose shorts and shirts hanging out on guys. If you go into stores and look around, people are dressed similarly. The wealthy who are here have come here to kick back and not for theater or museums or anything uppity. There isn't much fine dining, but in the nicer restaurants people are not dressed up. At this time of year you see those huge motor homes everywhere, and God only knows what those cost - and people get out of them (usually retired people) dressed as though they just stepped out of Wal-Mart.

My gay brother and his partner dress better than most, but still they just wear shorts. My oldest brother, being an outdoorsman, wears camouflage, which is so ugly. He won't go to a restaurant in full camouflage, but he'll wear a jacket or something. A lot of people wear bike shorts, etc. "Fashion" just doesn't fit with Idaho.

And then winter is a whole other story, which I don't want to contemplate now. Tomorrow I'm taking off work and going to the lake, but as usual I'm staying up too late and will be exhausted tomorrow.

I almost forgot, I wear red quite often since I wasn't allowed to wear it growing up.

[MarkBastable]

Getting back to the topic, I can't stand "pajama jeans" or "jeggings."

And why, given the chance, didn't the marketing people point out that it would be a much better idea to call them "leans"?

[Emil Miller]

I hate to say it around Wilson but I wear a lot of sundresses, or else shorts.

I never thought I would say this but: Come in G L Wilson.

[Varenne Rodin]

And why, given the chance, didn't the marketing people point out that it would be a much better idea to call them "leans"?

Who knows what goes through the brains of advertising creatures?

Question for the guys: Skinny jeans for males have become popular in California, do you wear them? Would you ever?

[Emil Miller]

Who knows what goes through the brains of advertising creatures?

Question for the guys: Skinny jeans for males have become popular in California, do you wear them? Would you ever?

I might if I knew what they were but I haven't worn jeans since I was a callow youth so it's unlikely I would do so again.

[Varenne Rodin]

I might if I knew what they were but I haven't worn jeans since I was a callow youth so it's unlikely I would do so again.

Skinny jeans are like ladies jeans, and they are being marketed for men...

http://www.waynetippetts.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/062wed804wp__wt091wp.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Y4uaYvbpz4w/SftKCRWbzRI/AAAAAAAAFDY/vRAocpHqYAc/s400/maison.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/19/article-0-02862992000005DC-344_468x756.jpg

[MarkBastable]

Yeah, they were big in the Eighties. You had to lie down to get them on. They were almost impossible to get off. And they were so tight they gave you pins-and-needles in your... Well, they were very tight.

[Paulclem]

I have little sympathy for people who complain they are too busy to exercise. Most people have ten minutes to spare, however busy they are, and if they really don't they can get up ten minutes earlier. Ten minutes of running makes quite a difference.

I find that many people use lack of time as an excuse because they consider exercise tedious.



You have little sympathy for people who are busy and have families?
You may well get up 10 mins earlier to run , but you know as well as I do that it isn't a case of just ten minutes. It's getting ready, running, and showering. More difficult with a young family.

My main point was the extensive commutes in cars though, and the insidious habits that develop from that. Going out running is make-working, as is going to the gym, whereas in the past it would have been part of the inescapable daily routine.

There's been no preparation for this. We are built to anticipate hard times with food scarcity, not plentiful food all the time. The pressure makes it hard to juggle a busy working life, families commutes, other responsibilities, housework, jobs, school visits, shopping, socialising etc etc

Ideally, exercise should be an integral part of the education system. it isn't though. In the UK there are very few males in Primary school, and , whilst it is not always true about men enjoying and promoting sport more, competitive exercise suffers because of this.

[Paulclem]

Skinny jeans are like ladies jeans, and they are being marketed for men...

http://www.waynetippetts.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/062wed804wp__wt091wp.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Y4uaYvbpz4w/SftKCRWbzRI/AAAAAAAAFDY/vRAocpHqYAc/s400/maison.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/19/article-0-02862992000005DC-344_468x756.jpg

I'm of an age where I'm not sure I should be wearing jeans now. I used to wear them in the 80s and 90s. Then again, I'm not sure what to wear anyway.

[Emil Miller]

Skinny jeans are like ladies jeans, and they are being marketed for men...

The three in the middle might conceivably be called men but the two at the top are very doubtful and the one at the bottom looks very much like a tramp who once accosted me near Waterloo Station and asked if I could spare him some money for a cup of coffee.

[Varenne Rodin]

They don't look bad on everyone, but I'm seeing far too many of them each day, on far too many body types. Like Mark was saying, they seem like they would be uncomfortable for men.

[MarkBastable]

The three in the middle might conceivably be called men but the two at the top are very doubtful and the one at the bottom looks very much like a tramp who once accosted me near Waterloo Station and asked if I could spare him some money for a cup of coffee.

Tramps aren't men?

That apart, and just for laughs - what would you say was the identifying characteristic of a man?

[prendrelemick]

I remember something in Tom Sawyer. He was disguised as a woman, but made the mistake of closing his legs to catch something thrown into his lap, instead of opening them.

[1n50mn14]

HEY. The one at the bottom is Russell Brand and I love him. He's the sexiest man alive. Seriously, if I ever get the opportunity, he and David Bowie will be forced to make sweet sweet love... um... music. MUSIC. In my sex dungeon. By which I mean basement.

[1n50mn14]

They don't look bad on everyone, but I'm seeing far too many of them each day, on far too many body types. Like Mark was saying, they seem like they would be uncomfortable for men.

I hate seeing pregnant ladies wearing skinny jeans. And obese people. I'm sorry, but they are actually called SKINNY jeans, implying that those who wear them are skinny.

People who don't wear clothing appropriate to their body type annoy me, actually. I don't care what kind of clothes people are wearing- as long as they fit. Sweetie, you might be able to squeeze into that size four, but don't congratulate yourself, cause it looks awful. The 8 would be much nicer :)

</rant>

[Emil Miller]

Tramps aren't men?

That apart, and just for laughs - what would you say was the identifying characteristic of a man?

Someone who's not effeminate and/or juvenile in their appearance.

[MarkBastable]

Someone who's not effeminate and/or juvenile in their appearance.

So, what are they then?

[Alexander III]

I dont like skinny jeans, but I think all pants and jeans should be slim. As in they follow the lines of your thighs and calves, but it does not make your muscles look like they are about to burst open of the pants. Also skinny jeans make some guys look like they are anorexic. Like the top guys in the picture. Of course the parachute pants of the 80's make me cringe too. A man should be proud to show of the lines of his body. Ofcourse in a reasonable manner.

A thing I do not like though, is the current fashion of short jackets. The slim lapels on jackets, is fine for me, but the shortness feels wrong. A mans jacket should not be the same length as what a women jacket would be. Of course as with pants, I wear my jackets slim fitting, to enhance the triangular shape of the body. Another thing I detest from the 80's was the shoulder padding in jackets, jackets should have natural shoulders in my opinion.

In england all the girls wear leggings rather than jeans at my university. Jeans for girls have kind of died and been replaced by leggings. All year round. I like it though, it shows of the curves better, I find it sexier.

[Alexander III]

So, what are they then?

I think what makes a man a man, is confidence. The confidence in the way he walks, talks, and relates himself to the world is what makes a guy a Man.

[Varenne Rodin]

I think what makes a man a man, is confidence. The confidence in the way he walks, talks, and relates himself to the world is what makes a guy a Man.

I agree.

[Emil Miller]

I agree.

There is some truth in this, but if a man gets too cocky, he is automatically written off as a poseur, except by vacuous young females who may have to find out the hard way.

[MarkBastable]

Apparently, it's nothing to do with confidence. What matters is appearance...




...what would you say was the identifying characteristic of a man?



Someone who's not effeminate and/or juvenile in their appearance.

[Emil Miller]

So, what are they then?

Masculine and adult in their appearance, which presupposes a certain amount of confidence.

[1n50mn14]

..what would you say was the identifying characteristic of a man? Having a penis. The rest is gender stereotyping. We don't need anymore of that.

[Alexander III]

There is some truth in this, but if a man gets too cocky, he is automatically written off as a poseur, except by vacuous young females who may have to find out the hard way.

There is a huge difference between cocky and confident. Young guys can get away with it more easily when they slip from confidence to cocky, but there is a huge difference.


Apparently, it's nothing to do with confidence. What matters is appearance...

Confidence is an integral part of appearance... In fact the most essential part of it. Any guy can wear simple clothes and look ordinary. But if a man dresses like a dandy, if he has confidence he will look like a god, if he doesn't he will look like a joke.

I am quite sure I mentioned that before, if I didn't pardon me, I thought it went without saying.


Having a penis. The rest is gender stereotyping. We don't need anymore of that.


meh, all men (and women) are not equal. There are some men, who all men see and want to be like. There are some women who all women see and want to be like. Sorry if you didn't get the memo. But don't start denying one of the basic aspects of human relations.

[cl154576]

About confidence, I am fascinated by the gloomy, introverted, self-criticizing type, but I understand how the confident type could be more "dashing."

I think men ought to have honor.

[G L Wilson]

Stupid is as stupid does; and fashionable men are certainly stupid.

[Alexander III]

About confidence, I am fascinated by the gloomy, introverted, self-criticizing type, but I understand how the confident type could be more "dashing."

I think men ought to have honor.

But the gloomy, self-critsisign type - comes in two ways. The one with confidence who appears, I suppose mysterious and attractive. The other without confidence seems weak and laughable.

And I agree, honor is essential. But it is a very inward thing. Honor is for a man's self, only he knows it, and he does not show it to the world. It is far more of a personal thing, which only a few intimates ever see.

[G L Wilson]

Honour is in disgrace nowadays, no-one wants it.

[Varenne Rodin]

I dont like skinny jeans, but I think all pants and jeans should be slim. As in they follow the lines of your thighs and calves, but it does make your muscles look like they are about to burst open of the pants. Also skinny jeans make some guys look like they are anorexic. Like the top guys in the picture. Of course the parachute pants of the 80's make me cringe too. A man should be proud to show of the lines of his body. Ofcourse in a reasonable manner.

A thing I do not like though, is the current fashion of short jackets. The slim lapels on jackets, is fine for me, but the shortness feels wrong. A mans jacket should not be the same length as what a women jacket would be. Of course as with pants, I wear my jackets slim fitting, to enhance the triangular shape of the body. Another thing I detest from the 80's was the shoulder padding in jackets, jackets should have natural shoulders in my opinion.

In england all the girls wear leggings rather than jeans at my university. Jeans for girls have kind of died and been replaced by leggings. All year round. I like it though, it shows of the curves better, I find it sexier.

I share these opinions. I adore a man in a well tailored suit.

[Varenne Rodin]

The separation of men and boys obviously has much to do with maturity. There are lots of effeminate and even cross-dressing men who are very clearly men. David Bowie, Tim Curry in drag, Steven Tyler of Aerosmith.

Perhaps self awareness contributes to manhood as well. Teenagers are often caught up in identity crises.

[cl154576]

Honour is in disgrace nowadays, no-one wants it.

Ah, but I find myself unable to tolerate the thing to my right, that chuckles when I call it a liar to its face. If it were intelligent maybe I would only find it contemptuous. Unfortunately it lacks that redeeming quality.

[G L Wilson]

No-one wants to be redeemed nowadays, everyone has a sense of entitlement.

[JuniperWoolf]

Yeah, they were big in the Eighties. You had to lie down to get them on. They were almost impossible to get off. And they were so tight they gave you pins-and-needles in your... Well, they were very tight.

Yeah, punks in Canada wear them to mimic 80's British punks. It's hilarious to see them trying to fight in them, or sit on a stool.

[MarkBastable]

Masculine and adult in their appearance, which presupposes a certain amount of confidence.

No - I mean what are the ones that aren't men, if they're not men? The two at the top and Russell Brand - that's the guy with the moustache and beard, and the hairy chest - what are they?

[prendrelemick]

This is so complicated, thank God I'm not in the game anymore.

[OrphanPip]

meh, all men (and women) are not equal. There are some men, who all men see and want to be like. There are some women who all women see and want to be like. Sorry if you didn't get the memo. But don't start denying one of the basic aspects of human relations.

Well, that's clearly not true. My ideal man is around 5'8'', slim but not muscular, preferably with some moderate amount of body hair, and in my bed.

Who are the men we all want to be like? I'm too busy priding myself on being lazy and effete to try and emulate any sort of masculine Adonis.

[Vonny]

Orphan Pip :lol: Good for you on being your lazy and effete self!


For once I'll try to go back on topic to "fashion" which seems a rather strange concept to me, I'm also with Alexander, as far as narrow and close fitting pants, and so forth. In winter I do wear leggings and tights. These are good to wear for shoveling snow! I guess I don't know what they're called. I don't wear "pajama jeans" or "jeggings." I've not heard of that; I don't wear leggings that are jeans. For me clothes must be sleek fitting. I don't wear extra bulk of any kind, other than what I wear for warmth.


You have little sympathy for people who are busy and have families?
You may well get up 10 mins earlier to run , but you know as well as I do that it isn't a case of just ten minutes. It's getting ready, running, and showering. More difficult with a young family.

My main point was the extensive commutes in cars though, and the insidious habits that develop from that. Going out running is make-working, as is going to the gym, whereas in the past it would have been part of the inescapable daily routine.

There's been no preparation for this. We are built to anticipate hard times with food scarcity, not plentiful food all the time. The pressure makes it hard to juggle a busy working life, families commutes, other responsibilities, housework, jobs, school visits, shopping, socialising etc etc

Ideally, exercise should be an integral part of the education system. it isn't though. In the UK there are very few males in Primary school, and , whilst it is not always true about men enjoying and promoting sport more, competitive exercise suffers because of this.

I'd never judge someone for not running. Most people think it's torture. I've been doing it as long as I can remember because my brothers ran and I had to be like them. I still run with my brother a lot. It energizes me when I've stayed up all night and I'm tired. I have to get up earlier for this, and then to shower and get to work. And then I have a long ride to work with my brother's friend, and I get in back and sleep on the way, and also on the way home. I sleep a lot in the car. I sleep a half hour here and a half hour there.

It is really difficult to juggle the different facets of life. I can't imagine what it would be like to have kids.

[JuniperWoolf]

Who are the men we all want to be like? I'm too busy priding myself on being lazy and effete to try and emulate any sort of masculine Adonis.

Yeah, the kind of girl that I would idolize would have a number of characteristics that could be like those that other girls might want to emulate (how would I know?), but one of the qualities that I would look for would be a good right hook. Something tells me that not every woman would be as impressed by the ability to fight as I am, but some might. It's a strange idea that there's a prototype person representing what everyone else wants to be since we're all so different.

If we're just talking about the physical, than that's as easy to disprove as looking at hair color. I like blonde hair, but most of the girls that I know would love to be redheads, some would like dark hair, ect.. Not only do the intangible characteristics that we covet widely vary, the physical characteristics do as well.

[JuniperWoolf]

Oh yeah, also, I find the entire discussion of what "makes a man" to be pretty pointless. Various physical characteristics (including the penis, which Becca pointed out earlier) as well as hormones make a man. The rest is just generally shared social impressions which depend on your location. For example, in Canada it would be considered "unmanly" to live with one's mother beyond age eighteen. I'm told that in Italy (where Alex is from, so maybe he can verify) it's not uncommon for men to live with their mothers into their late twenties or early thirties and no one sees it as a strike against that person's gender identity. This is just because the cultural expectations are different for men in the two countries, and is not inborn or in any way universal, so what's the point in making broad generalizations about what makes a person a "man" beyond the obvious physical characteristics? It's obviously learned, and "what makes a man" will change over time (fops, anyone?).

[G L Wilson]

No - I mean what are the ones that aren't men, if they're not men? The two at the top and Russell Brand - that's the guy with the moustache and beard, and the hairy chest - what are they?

Three guesses and it starts with f.

[Vonny]

Yeah, the kind of girl that I would idolize would have a number of characteristics that could be like those that other girls might want to emulate (how would I know?), but one of the qualities that I would look for would be a good right hook. Something tells me that not every woman would be as impressed by the ability to fight as I am, but some might. It's a strange idea that there's a prototype person representing what everyone else wants to be since we're all so different.

If we're just talking about the physical, than that's as easy to disprove as looking at hair color. I like blonde hair, but most of the girls that I know would love to be redheads, some would like dark hair, ect.. Not only do the intangible characteristics that we covet widely vary, the physical characteristics do as well.


Yes, it's interesting about this variance. Being impressed with the ability to fight in this way -- Doesn't work for me!!

[MarkBastable]

There are some men, who all men see and want to be like.

Name one.

[Emil Miller]

No - I mean what are the ones that aren't men, if they're not men? The two at the top and Russell Brand - that's the guy with the moustache and beard, and the hairy chest - what are they?

I believe they are currently being referred to as metrosexuals.



Name one.

I think he might have Alexander in mind.

[osho]

What is metro-sexual?

[LitNetIsGreat]

What is metro-sexual?

Someone who has sex on the bus?

Sorry...

[Emil Miller]

What is metro-sexual?

Here are two definitions that should answer the question.

You shave more than just your face. You also exfoliate and moisturize.

You would never, ever own a pickup truck.



Someone who has sex on the bus?

Sorry...

No, it's someone who has sex on the Metro. Actually, it's not difficult to do in some parts of Paris.

[Alexander III]

Name one.


I believe they are currently being referred to as metrosexuals.




I think he might have Alexander in mind.

Have you guys never met one of those people, who when they enter a room they leave everyone in awe, because they have a certain intangible but very present thing about them? Those people who after they leave a room, every person is left wondering, "wow I want to be more like him", or whatever he has, I want it"

[Emil Miller]

Have you guys never met one of those people, who when they enter a room they leave everyone in awe, because they have a certain intangible but very present thing about them? Those people who after they leave a room, every person is left wondering, "wow I want to be more like him", or whatever he has, I want it"

I can honestly say that I have never met anyone who I would rather be than myself.

[G L Wilson]

A metrosexual is a woman in trousers.

[Alexander III]

I can honestly say that I have never met anyone who I would rather be than myself.

Im not saying you would switch places, I am saying you want that intangible aura of his that leaves everyone awestruck when he meets them.

[ralfyman]

So I just wanted to start a thread about the discussion of fashion, if anyone is interested. I figured on a literature site we would have everything from "couldnt care less" to full on enthusiasts.

Personally I am and will always be an aesthetic man - for me what counts and always will count is appearances. Unless the person is an intimate person in my circle, I will judge them 90% on solely appearances. I suppose I am not the only one who does this, so being aesthetically perfect has always been one of my passions along with literature.

I have always found that the way one dresses, is one of the clearest forms of communication about "who they are"

So anyone else an Oscar Wildean dandy like myself or am I a solitary china vase on these forums?

Also, I would think that people who have a passion for literature, art and music or rather any art form; would also be very attentive about their wardrobe. Personally I have a keen sense for beauty and think that any man who has a keen sense of beauty would aspire to make himself into a work of art - as only that which is beautiful is useful.

There's a site related to this:

http://www.dandyism.net

[G L Wilson]

Im not saying you would switch places, I am saying you want that intangible aura of his that leaves everyone awestruck when he meets them.

Like the smell from the crack of his arse.

[Emil Miller]

Im not saying you would switch places, I am saying you want that intangible aura of his that leaves everyone awestruck when he meets them.

I have only ever been awestruck at one man and that was Royston C. Twilly, one of my teachers in junior school. He was a very personable and extremely intelligent man. Apart from him there have been quite a few females at whom I've been awestruck but that's par for the course with most males.

[1n50mn14]

Oh yeah, also, I find the entire discussion of what "makes a man" to be pretty pointless. Various physical characteristics (including the penis, which Becca pointed out earlier) as well as hormones make a man. The rest is just generally shared social impressions which depend on your location. For example, in Canada it would be considered "unmanly" to live with one's mother beyond age eighteen. I'm told that in Italy (where Alex is from, so maybe he can verify) it's not uncommon for men to live with their mothers into their late twenties or early thirties and no one sees it as a strike against that person's gender identity. This is just because the cultural expectations are different for men in the two countries, and is not inborn or in any way universal, so what's the point in making broad generalizations about what makes a person a "man" beyond the obvious physical characteristics? It's obviously learned, and "what makes a man" will change over time (fops, anyone?).

Let's be friends :)

[Alexander III]

There's a site related to this:

http://www.dandyism.net

Very interesting site, and the article about Balzac's theories on dandyism is great. Perfect timing, in fact - Balzac come to my rescue.

[MarkBastable]

Have you guys never met one of those people, who when they enter a room they leave everyone in awe, because they have a certain intangible but very present thing about them? Those people who after they leave a room, every person is left wondering, "wow I want to be more like him", or whatever he has, I want it"

Never have, no.

My wife has met Bill Clinton, and she says that he had that kind of persona. I've never asked her whether she has the dry-cleaning tickets to prove it.

[OrphanPip]

Have you guys never met one of those people, who when they enter a room they leave everyone in awe, because they have a certain intangible but very present thing about them? Those people who after they leave a room, every person is left wondering, "wow I want to be more like him", or whatever he has, I want it"

No, people don't generally impress me under any circumstances.

[MystyrMystyry]

Perhaps your fathers - were your dads impressive?

Actually did they make either a negative or positive impression? Passing down the right way to live your life, or are you like you are as rebellion against everything he stood for?

[Alexander III]

Orphan, Mark - I guess it makes sense that you have never met one of these men, they are after all one in a million. But I remember I have, a distant cousin of mine - on paper few people would like him. He lives like a playboy off of his fathers money, he is almost like one of those 19th century young aristocrats who inherit a nice some and dedicate their life to the pursuit of pleasure. He does not care much for science or art, all he cares about are the fine things in life, which he does surround himself with, and living the good life.

I visit him every one in a while, and he is one of those people, who everyone men and women fall in love with straight away, there is just something about him which leaves such a strong and pleasant impression upon everyone who meets him. He reminds me of Anatole from War and Peace, but more intelligent and men and women love him more than they did Anatole. Also he is the most loyal friend a man could ask for, and this quality is one which earns a man a lot of respect and love, regardless of how many other faults he has.

Either way, I have learned a lot from him, and someday I wish to reach that level of intangible perfection too.

[MarkBastable]

Either way, I have learned a lot from him, and someday I wish to reach that level of intangible perfection too.

I don't understand that wish at all. It sounds like a desire to be someone else.

[OrphanPip]

Perhaps your fathers - were your dads impressive?

Actually did they make either a negative or positive impression? Passing down the right way to live your life, or are you like you are as rebellion against everything he stood for?

No, my father is a functionally illiterate dyslexic who never finished high school. I love my father, but I do not want to be like my father. Nor am I rebelling against him. I imagine, like most people, I have parts of my personality that are a bit like my mother or a bit like my father, and some parts that are distinct from either.

[MarkBastable]

Perhaps your fathers - were your dads impressive?

Actually did they make either a negative or positive impression? Passing down the right way to live your life, or are you like you are as rebellion against everything he stood for?


My dad's a very ordinary decent bloke, and there are traits I've taken from him and others I've tried to avoid. But I've never aspired to be him any more than I've rebelled against him, really.

In any case, even if I had been hugely in awe of him, he wouldn't qualify in terms of Alexander's proposition of the universally awe-inspiring guy.

Originally Posted by Alexander III
There are some men, who all men see and want to be like.

Alexander - can you point to such a person who we'd all know? A public figure?

[Alexander III]

Originally Posted by Alexander III
There are some men, who all men see and want to be like.

Alexander - can you point to such a person who we'd all know? A public figure?

But thats the thing, it is about the sublime effect they have on people who meet them. I have never met the majority of famous public figures so I couldn't say. But I imagine Obama might have it.

I am not explaining this very well - it's not the person or their intelligence or charisma or beauty, it is something else, a something which cant be described but leaves as awe inspiring effect on people.

I suspect people like Gandhi and Hitler and JFK might have had it. To go a bit more back, people like Napoleon and Byron and George Washington definitely had it. Jesus and Mohamed also definitely had it.

A simple way of being, that makes them stand out from everyone else, that makes you admire and love them when you meet them, for no reason but the fact that they are. Those men who inspire, the unknown in others - not because they try to inspire, their being just inspires by itself.

Is what I am saying somewhat clearer now?

[prendrelemick]

I have seen someone who's personal charm was off the scale. He was a scruffy individual, but his effect on women was astonishing. The annoying thing was he didn't seem to have to do anything. He just was.

[MarkBastable]

But thats the thing, it is about the sublime effect they have on people who meet them. I have never met the majority of famous public figures so I couldn't say. But I imagine Obama might have it.

I am not explaining this very well - it's not the person or their intelligence or charisma or beauty, it is something else, a something which cant be described but leaves as awe inspiring effect on people.

I suspect people like Gandhi and Hitler and JFK might have had it. To go a bit more back, people like Napoleon and Byron and George Washington definitely had it. Jesus and Mohamed also definitely had it.

A simple way of being, that makes them stand out from everyone else, that makes you admire and love them when you meet them, for no reason but the fact that they are. Those men who inspire, the unknown in others - not because they try to inspire, their being just inspires by itself.

Is what I am saying somewhat clearer now?

Well, yeah - but even if such a quality exists (which I'm not sure it does), I don't believe that that effect could ever be universal. You said, There are some men, who all men see and want to be like. And I'm thinking, "..all men"?

[Emil Miller]

I have seen someone who's personal charm was off the scale. He was a scruffy individual, but his effect on women was astonishing. The annoying thing was he didn't seem to have to do anything. He just was.

Well there are women and, then again, there are women.

[Alexander III]

Well, yeah - but even if such a quality exists (which I'm not sure it does), I don't believe that that effect could ever be universal. You said, There are some men, who all men see and want to be like. And I'm thinking, "..all men"?

Trust me it is universal

[MarkBastable]

Trust me it is universal

Certainly not. I'm not the trusting type.

[prendrelemick]

Well there are women and, then again, there are women.



True. We men used to hate him (jealous). But his affect on the ladies was just about universal. The downside was he never managed any long term relationships. ( he was about 40 when I knew him.)

[cl154576]

But thats the thing, it is about the sublime effect they have on people who meet them. I have never met the majority of famous public figures so I couldn't say. But I imagine Obama might have it.

I am not explaining this very well - it's not the person or their intelligence or charisma or beauty, it is something else, a something which cant be described but leaves as awe inspiring effect on people.

I suspect people like Gandhi and Hitler and JFK might have had it. To go a bit more back, people like Napoleon and Byron and George Washington definitely had it. Jesus and Mohamed also definitely had it.

A simple way of being, that makes them stand out from everyone else, that makes you admire and love them when you meet them, for no reason but the fact that they are. Those men who inspire, the unknown in others - not because they try to inspire, their being just inspires by itself.

Is what I am saying somewhat clearer now?

There is no quality as "inspiring," different people are inspired by different things. I don't think Jesus and Hitler attracted followers in the same way.

Obama? Not to be political, but some major newspapers are starting to say things ... As with all the people you name. There were people who admired them, and people who hated them. I don't see the universality of this desired quality. I can only suggest that all the people you name have leadership.

There are people whose talents I think could be universally inspiring, but no one's personality.

[Emil Miller]

I don't think Jesus and Hitler attracted followers in the same way.


:lol:

[OrphanPip]

Well Jesus really didn't attract that much support in his lifetime either. I think it has more to do with, as Machiavelli phrased it, "all armed prophets have been victorious and all unarmed prophets have failed."

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well Jesus really didn't attract that much support in his lifetime either. I think it has more to do with, as Machiavelli phrased it, "all armed prophets have been victorious and all unarmed prophets have failed."

I think it also has a lot to do with the aura of a person or thing. I don't mean in the spiritual sense of course, but in the sense that a person or thing begins to gain an aura as they are given more and more cultural credibility, (as that postmodernist thinker put forward, can't remember his name, Jameson, or someone like that???) What gives the original Mona Lisa more emotional impact than a postcard of it? Does Obama has more of an aura now than ten years ago? (or prob not just now but you see what I mean?) That's why people swoon at famous people all the time; it's to do with the cultural impact and not necessarily the person themselves (though it could also be the person as well I suppose.) Yes, so the aura thing!*


* Seven years of literary education well spent see! :biggrin5:

[Emil Miller]

True. We men used to hate him (jealous). But his affect on the ladies was just about universal. The downside was he never managed any long term relationships. ( he was about 40 when I knew him.)

Yes, but as he seems to have been playing the field, he wouldn't have been interested in long term relationships, and 40+ is a great age for drawing the women, especially the young ones.

[Alexander III]

On a more unrelated note

Here are some quotes on dandyism which I like:

“I’ve always been backward on morals, but I do know how to dress appropriately for any given occasion, and that’s more than half the battle.” — Thorne Smith, The Stray Lamb

“A dandy does nothing. Can you imagine a dandy addressing the common herd except to make game of them?” — Charles Baudelaire, Intimate Journals

“Wit is educated insolence.” — Aristotle, The Art of Rhetoric

“Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy: for the apparel oft proclaims the man.” — Shakespeare, Hamlet

“In all unimportant matters, style, not sincerity, is the essential. In all important matters, style, not sincerity, is the essential.” — Oscar Wilde

“Do you think it means nothing to have the right, as you make your entry into a salon, to look down on everybody from the height of your cravat and be privileged to despise the most important man there if his waistcoat is out of fashion?” — Balzac

“Modesty was made for the ugly.” — Theophile Gautier

“‘Tis hell to a man of spirit to be contradicted by his tailor.” — Richard Garnett, Duke Virgil

“He knew that to be careless in dress and manner required more confidence than to be careful.” — F. Scott Fitzgerald, Winter Dreams

[MarkBastable]

“Wit is educated insolence.” — Aristotle, The Art of Rhetoric

God, I hope so.

[cl154576]

Alexander, I don't mean to be rude, but I am curious – do you ever feel unsatisfied with being a dandy?

[JuniperWoolf]

I am not explaining this very well - it's not the person or their intelligence or charisma or beauty, it is something else, a something which cant be described but leaves as awe inspiring effect on people

Obscure reference: in the introductory scene of The Assasination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford, the narrator describes Jesse's personality as "difficult to put a stamp on." He says that when Jesse entered a room it seemed to get hotter, and when he left everything looked a little grey. He also says that people simply wanted to be near him all the time, perhaps in the hope that some of what he had would rub off on them. So, while I've never met the kind of person that you're describing, this one trivial factoid from a movie that I watched supports the idea that what you're saying might have been observed by other people (specifically: Jesse James had "it").


Let's be friends :)

:biggrin5: Done, and done.


“Wit is educated insolence.” — Aristotle, The Art of Rhetoric

God, I hope so.

Hah! That's you all over, Mark.

[Alexander III]

the narrator describes Jesse's personality as "difficult to put a stamp on." He says that when Jesse entered a room it seemed to get hotter, and when he left everything looked a little grey. He also says that people simply wanted to be near him all the time, perhaps in the hope that some of what he had would rub off on them. So, while I've never met the kind of person that you're describing, this one trivial factoid from a movie that I watched supports the idea that what you're saying might have been observed by other people (specifically: Jesse James had "it").


Yup, that is well explained of what I mean by that rare "it" which some men posses.

To continue the discussion along

Let us talk off dandyism in literature.

What "dandy" character do you think was done best in a novel?

Do you guys enjoy "dandy" characters or find them dry and unrelatable.

My favorites are Onegin and Pechorin, as well as Gatsby and Dorian Gray.

Now that I think of it, the majority of Dandy characters, are created by the authors as men the readers both loves and hates. I have never seen a dandy character which was a pure hero, they are always very byronic in nature.

[billl]

Now that I think of it, the majority of Dandy characters, are created by the authors as men the readers both loves and hates. I have never seen a dandy character which was a pure hero, they are always very byronic in nature.



Alexander, as repayment for the fun I've had reading all of this dandy chat, I want to point you towards something that looks promising, if you haven't read it already. It might just be up your alley. I'm speaking of "The Scarlet Pimpernel", an important precursor to the idea of the superhero, such as Batman, etc., in literature.

Here is how he is introduced (in the form of his non-secret-hero identity, a la Bruce Wayne, or Klark Kent, etc.) is introduced in the first novel:




Sir Percy Blakeney, as the chronicles of the time inform us, was in this year of grace 1792, still a year or two on the right side of thirty. Tall, above the average, even for an Englishman, broad-shouldered and massively built, he would have been called unusually good-looking, but for a certain lazy expression in his deep-set blue eyes, and that perpetual inane laugh which seemed to disfigure his strong, clearly-cut mouth.

It was nearly a year ago now that Sir Percy Blakeney, Bart., one of the richest men in England, leader of all the fashions, and intimate friend of the Prince of Wales, had astonished fashionable society in London and Bath by bringing home, from one of his journeys abroad, a beautiful, fascinating, clever, French wife. He, the sleepiest, dullest, most British Britisher that had ever set a pretty woman yawning, had secured a brilliant matrimonial prize for which, as all chroniclers aver, there had been many competitors.



It is mentioned in the passage that he is dull and sleepy, but that's just to throw everyone off the trail, obviously. It turns out that this Percy is the Scarlet Pimpernel, leader of a secret gang of English aristocrats performing acts of heroism against the forces of the French Revolution. Referred to as a "meddlesome Englishman" by the French diplomat (the story's antagonist), we learn that



He [the Scarlet Pimpernel] and the few young jackanapes under his command, well furnished with money, armed with boundless daring, and acute cunning, had succeeded in rescuing hundreds of aristocrats from France. Nine-tenths of the EMIGRES, who were FETED at the English court, owed their safety to that man and to his league.



I haven't read the story myself, I've just flipped through it online a bit, but it seems a case in which the dandy might be presented purely as a hero (although many of us today might raise eyebrows at the unexpectedly heroic portrayal of his stance vis-a-vis the French Revolution). Here's another excerpt, where Percy Blakeney is described for (I think) the second time in the story:



The Prince of Wales, dressed in a magnificent court suit of salmon-coloured velvet richly embroidered with gold, entered with Marguerite Blakeney on his arm; and on his left Sir Percy, in gorgeous shimmering cream satin, cut in the extravagant "Incroyable" style, his fair hair free from powder, priceless lace at his neck and wrists, and the flat CHAPEAU-BRAS under his arm.

[OrphanPip]

The fopish dandy is the pimpernel's public face to cover up his secret identity. Part of the plot is that his wife hates his dandyish behavior until she learns that underneath he is really a daring adventurer.

[billl]

Ah, thanks, Pip. After I posted, I realized how wrong I might've been about the story. It was written so long after the French Revolution, I wasn't even sure if it might be a satire (much as it seems today). I think the author seriously did support "the aristocracy" though.

Anyhow, thanks for the clarification. I must admit that, besides the quick 15 minutes I spent skimming Wikipedia and Gutenberg online, 99% of my knowledge about the Scarlet Pimpernel comes from an old Benny Hill comedy sketch.

[Alexander III]

Alexander, I don't mean to be rude, but I am curious – do you ever feel unsatisfied with being a dandy?

I would feel greatly unsatisfied by being anything less than a work of art.

Many people here write I suppose, and like all artists would want to create a beautiful work of art one day. I do not care to create art - I find it far more enthralling to be a work of art. For St.lukes has a canvas upon which to paint, the writer has paper to be inked, and the musician instruments to be played - for the dandy, his canvas is life. We only have one attempt at creating our sistine chapel.

For Every Proust and Huysmans there must be an equal Robert de Montesquiou

[G L Wilson]

The dandy is a careless fool who makes powerful men look silly.

[MarkBastable]

The dandy is a careless fool who makes powerful men look silly.

You're having these generated at random by some kind of app now, aren't you?

[Alexander III]

You're having these generated at random by some kind of app now, aren't you?

No no no, a random generator app would be for more consistent in its views :D


Any who - for any person out there who wants to join my club, and or is looking for advice on how to improve their appearance, or just want's to up their game with the laddies - here is a little, and simple, and obviously profound list to help.

1.) Do not require your dress so much to fit, as to adorn you. Nature is not to be copied, but to be exalted by art. Apelles blamed Protogenes for being too natural.

2.) Never in your dress altogether desert that taste which is general. The world considers eccentricity in great things, genius; in small things, folly.

3.) Always remember that you dress to fascinate others, not yourself.

4.) Keep your mind free from all violent affections at the hour of the toilet. A philosophical serenity is perfectly necessary to success. Helvetius says justly, that our errors arise from our passions.

5.) Remember that none but those whose courage is unquestionable, can venture to be effeminate. It was only in the field that the Lacedemonians were accustomed to use perfumes and curl their hair.

6.) Never let the finery of chains and rings seem your own choice; that which naturally belongs to women should appear only worn for their sake. We dignify foppery, when we invest it with a sentiment.

7.) To win the affection of your mistress, appear negligent in your costume-to preserve it, assiduous: the first is a sign of the passion of love; the second, of its respect.

8.) A man must be a profound calculator to be a consummate dresser. One must not dress the same, whether one goes to a minister or a mistress; an avaricious uncle, or an ostentatious cousin: there is no diplomacy more subtle than that of dress.

9.) Is the great man whom you would conciliate a coxcomb? — go to him in a waistcoat like his own. “Imitation,” says the author of Lacon, “is the sincerest flattery.”

10.) The handsome may be shewy in dress, the plain should study to be unexceptionable; just as in great men we look for something to admire — in ordinary men we ask for nothing to forgive.

11.) There is a study of dress for the aged, as well as for the young. Inattention is no less indecorous in one than in the other; we may distinguish the taste appropriate to each, by the reflection that youth is made to be loved-age, to be respected.

12.) A fool may dress gaudily, but a fool cannot dress well-for to dress well requires judgment; and Rochefaucault says with truth, “On est quelquefois un sot avec de l’esprit, mais on ne lest jamais avec du jugement.”

13.) There may be more pathos in the fall of a collar, or the curl of a lock, than the shallow think for. Should we be so apt as we are now to compassionate the misfortunes, and to forgive the insincerity of Charles I, if his pictures had pourtrayed him in a bob wig and a pigtail? Vandyke was a greater sophist than Hume.

14.) The most graceful principle of dress is neatness — the most vulgar is preciseness.

15.) Dress contains the two codes of morality — private and public. Attention is the duty we owe to others-cleanliness that which we owe to ourselves.

16.) Dress so that it may never be said of you “What a well dressed man!” — but, “What a gentlemanlike man!”

17.) Avoid many colours; and seek, by some one prevalent and quiet tint, to sober down the others. Apelles used only four colours, and always subdued those which were more florid, by a darkening varnish.

18.) Nothing is superficial to a deep observer! It is in trifles that the mind betrays itself. “In what part of that letter,” said a king to the wisest of living diplomatists, “did you discover irresolution?” — “In its ns and gs!” was the answer.

19.) A very benevolent man will never shock the feelings of others, by an excess either of inattention or display; you may doubt, therefore, the philanthropy both of a sloven and a fop.

20.) There is an indifference to please in a stocking down at heel — but there may be a malevolence in a diamond ring.

21.) Inventions in dressing should resemble Addison’s definition of fine writing, and consists of “refinements which are natural, without being obvious.”


Number 5, is particularly essential. I have been in many scraps, not because I am hot headed, or because I wanted revenge against the man who stepped on my dignity - simply to maintain my reputation so than no one can find reason to question it. Nothing is more unattractive than cowardice.

[Emil Miller]

Any who - for any person out there who wants to join my club, and or is looking for advice on how to improve their appearance, or just want's to up their game with the laddies - here is a little, and simple, and obviously profound list to help.

Shouldn't that be ladies ? Oooh, I don't know though.

[Alexander III]

Shouldn't that be ladies ? Oooh, I don't know though.

Not sure if typo...

Or Freud was right and I am unconsciously gay...

[G L Wilson]

Not sure if typo...

Or Freud was right and I am unconsciously gay...

Freud is out of fashion.

[Clopin]

Ancient thread, but I like the discussion.

1. Alex is sort of correct. A proper sense of fashion and fit for a man is extremely welcome and somewhat important in day to day life. Making snap judgments about someones character based on how they dress if of course ridiculous; all you can justly assume is that on the day you're observing them they don't care about what they look like, or they do care but lack the proper sensibilities to pull together an outfit. These are not huge character flaws.

2. Alex it sounds like you may be overdressed a lot of the time. Frankly what young, university aged students tend to do is rarely the "right" way to go about things. If you're showing up to class on a summer day wearing fine suit pants, a vest and a dress shirt/tie, tie clip and dress shoes you likely look completely ridiculous, and like you're playing dress up with daddy's clothes.

3. Fit and function is everything for men's fashion. If you're ignoring someone because they're at a bar or lecture wearing a well tailored oxford/chambray shirt, paired with some correctly fitting dark denim, functional shoes and perhaps an optional, tasteful, well fitted blazer then you're probably just a moron with no sense and an inflated sense of foppery (I don't actually know how you dress so this is just a hypothetical).

Men's style has changed very little in a very long time. Every man should own a well fitted suit (or five), correctly fitting v neck sweaters, chinos, dark denim, a few blazers/sportcoats, dress shoes, loafers, boots, ties, dress shirts and oxford shirts, all tailor fitted or well fitted to your measurements. If your clothes don't fit, you look like crap no matter how much they cost you.

Also the ire that I noticed in this thread toward people who admire good fashion sense is something that I notice frequently in discussions. I'm a huge advocate of male beauty and aesthetics in general. People should be proud of their bodies (and to you all you literature touting "inner beauty" fanatics, physical fitness has been noted as a key to mental well being by basically every culture to have ever existed and by thinkers such as Socrates). And with that, and with an artistic eye comes a natural interest in style and fashion, even if you don't label it as such.

Also you pay for quality. Anyone who balks at the notion of spending one hundred dollars (and much much more) on a pair of pants very likely looks like complete garbage when they step outside their house. I'm no aristocrat but I have in the past dropped some real flow for some nice clothes, despite the fact that I've often worked minimum wage jobs. The simple reality is that quality fabric, cut and fit are everything. If you're on a real tight budget however you can often look passably good with cheaper clothes that are altered to your measurements, a man in a well fitting $500 suit looks much better than an idiot wearing an ill fitting $2500 suit.

[Volya]

You don't need to spend vast amounts of cash to look good.
I personally don't care too much if other people dress badly, but I try to maintain some standards in what I wear. I do hate the modern fashion industry though, it all looks so stupid. I also dislike people who 'low ride', it's just retarded. Those pictures Alexander posted at the start are great examples of true style and fashion. :)

[cacian]

Fashion is costly because of styles going of out fashion soon after so the prices are plumped up to get as much out of it as possible out of the way before it is out of season.
True fashion does not wear out and until that happens I will carry on ignoring brands and whatnot. I wear what is most comfortable besides a quick exiting fashion is comformist.
I wish not to appear similar to others. Mix andmatch the easiest if one cannot afford the lable the other end of fashion is cheap and nasty.
One has to be clever in chosing what to wear and for a good price.
Now that is if one has time otherwise is whatever is easy but no nasty though.

[Emil Miller]

Is it my imagination or has there been some sort of resurgence of the well-cut suit ? I have noticed some very smart young men in dark suits and well groomed hair that seems to hark back to the early sixties just before the scruff bag look became predominant. Of course, it might be on account of the severe recession and they no longer have the option of an unlimited supply of jobs that allowed them to walk about like slobs and remain in employment. Employers are becoming increasingly demanding according to a radio programme I heard recently.

The Empire strikes back?

It is sincerely to be hoped.

[Helga]

No, I think these are just some mad men talking

[Clopin]

You don't need to spend vast amounts of cash to look good.
I personally don't care too much if other people dress badly, but I try to maintain some standards in what I wear. I do hate the modern fashion industry though, it all looks so stupid. I also dislike people who 'low ride', it's just retarded. Those pictures Alexander posted at the start are great examples of true style and fashion. :)

The modern fashion industry is dynamic and interesting. Let me guess, you also think that this generation killed music? And yes, you need to drop quite a bit of money to get a decent looking, high quality, well tailored suit.


Fashion is costly because of styles going of out fashion soon after so the prices are plumped up to get as much out of it as

Maybe if you're an idiotic trend hopper. A fine Italian suit is costly because it's high quality. A SUPREME brand hat is costly because morons gonna moron and will buy it because of the brand name.

[Volya]

Having an amazing suit is not the only way you can look good. You can look good without forking out on expensive suits and the like.
And yeah, I think older music is better.
Seriously, have you SEEN some of the crap that passes for 'fashion' these days?
Lady Gaga wears a ****ing meat suit for christs sake. I know she is an extreme example, but half the stuff I see in fashion sections of the newspaper is just as bad as that.

[Clopin]

Having an amazing suit is not the only way you can look good. You can look good without forking out on expensive suits and the like.
And yeah, I think older music is better.
Seriously, have you SEEN some of the crap that passes for 'fashion' these days?
Lady Gaga wears a ****ing meat suit for christs sake. I know she is an extreme example, but half the stuff I see in fashion sections of the newspaper is just as bad as that.

1. You can look okay.

2. What older music do you listen to? The same cliche picks that everyone on youtube advocates? Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, The Doors? You likely don't know anything of music past what you hear on the radio so you make uneducated claims like "old music was better".

3. Does that pass for fashion? Runway fashion is not meant to be worn on the street, and Lady Gaga is a glam musician. This is like saying that fashion sucked in the 70's BECAUSE David Bowie wore glam outfits on stage, or that fashion sucked in the 80's BECAUSE hair metal bands existed. I also find it a little hokey, but that doesn't mean that style and fashion now are bad; once again you simply know nothing about it so you look at something like Lady Gaga and decide that you'll use this as a model to discredit an entire decade of fashion and style.

But you're young so I'll let it slide. I do need to point out that your opinions are incredibly cliche and I guarantee you'll be singing a different tune in a few years time (unless you go full Peter Pan and never grow up).

[Volya]

1. You can look great. I know guys who look amazing, they don't spend over £100 on one item of clothing.

2. Older music that I listen to? Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, Oasis, The Police, Bob Marley, UB40, Queen, and a whole load of others. Whats the most 'popular' music right now? Dubstep, Gaga, Bieber. Yep, I prefer the older stuff.

3. I even said myself that Lady Gaga was an extreme example. But the majority of other 'fashion' models I see wear similar stuff. It looks like crap on the runway, it looks like crap on the street.

Also, if it helps for you to understand my opinion of music. The best of the old, is better than the best of the new. Sure theres some good stuff now, but it doesn't compare to back then.

[Alexander III]

Ancient thread, but I like the discussion.

1. Alex is sort of correct. A proper sense of fashion and fit for a man is extremely welcome and somewhat important in day to day life. Making snap judgments about someones character based on how they dress if of course ridiculous; all you can justly assume is that on the day you're observing them they don't care about what they look like, or they do care but lack the proper sensibilities to pull together an outfit. These are not huge character flaws.

2. Alex it sounds like you may be overdressed a lot of the time. Frankly what young, university aged students tend to do is rarely the "right" way to go about things. If you're showing up to class on a summer day wearing fine suit pants, a vest and a dress shirt/tie, tie clip and dress shoes you likely look completely ridiculous, and like you're playing dress up with daddy's clothes.

3. Fit and function is everything for men's fashion. If you're ignoring someone because they're at a bar or lecture wearing a well tailored oxford/chambray shirt, paired with some correctly fitting dark denim, functional shoes and perhaps an optional, tasteful, well fitted blazer then you're probably just a moron with no sense and an inflated sense of foppery (I don't actually know how you dress so this is just a hypothetical).

Men's style has changed very little in a very long time. Every man should own a well fitted suit (or five), correctly fitting v neck sweaters, chinos, dark denim, a few blazers/sportcoats, dress shoes, loafers, boots, ties, dress shirts and oxford shirts, all tailor fitted or well fitted to your measurements. If your clothes don't fit, you look like crap no matter how much they cost you.

Also the ire that I noticed in this thread toward people who admire good fashion sense is something that I notice frequently in discussions. I'm a huge advocate of male beauty and aesthetics in general. People should be proud of their bodies (and to you all you literature touting "inner beauty" fanatics, physical fitness has been noted as a key to mental well being by basically every culture to have ever existed and by thinkers such as Socrates). And with that, and with an artistic eye comes a natural interest in style and fashion, even if you don't label it as such.

Also you pay for quality. Anyone who balks at the notion of spending one hundred dollars (and much much more) on a pair of pants very likely looks like complete garbage when they step outside their house. I'm no aristocrat but I have in the past dropped some real flow for some nice clothes, despite the fact that I've often worked minimum wage jobs. The simple reality is that quality fabric, cut and fit are everything. If you're on a real tight budget however you can often look passably good with cheaper clothes that are altered to your measurements, a man in a well fitting $500 suit looks much better than an idiot wearing an ill fitting $2500 suit.

To be fair, I normally wear chinos/cor du roi/jeans with button downs and sport-coats/blazers. But at my university there is a cult of dandyism, well at least at my college, and tailored blazers/spoart-coats are quite normal, as well as ever variation of trouser color one can imagine.

I wear suits on appropriate occasions (going to lunch/diner at a hotel or fancy restaurant, going to formal dinner-parties, birthday parties, clubbing in certain clubs, ceremonies ect.) and I have a white-tie outfit for the occasional ball.

Yes I have always found strange how a forum devoted to literature can display such hostility to fashion, considering how such a large quantity of writers were rather keen on the subject themselves.


Is it my imagination or has there been some sort of resurgence of the well-cut suit ? I have noticed some very smart young men in dark suits and well groomed hair that seems to hark back to the early sixties just before the scruff bag look became predominant. Of course, it might be on account of the severe recession and they no longer have the option of an unlimited supply of jobs that allowed them to walk about like slobs and remain in employment. Employers are becoming increasingly demanding according to a radio programme I heard recently.

The Empire strikes back?

It is sincerely to be hoped.

I am quite sure I mentioned this a few months ago and you dismissed it. Also I doubt it has much to do with the economy, rather it is a culture shift. Since 1969 casual clothing was rebellion, it was youth - now when casual clothing is representative of conformity and of generations in their 40's plus, the new concept of rebellion in clothing is elegance, youth now looks back to the first half of the 21st century not with the disparaging eye of seeing conformity and rigidness, rather we see a lost elegance and taste which has been killed in the conformist-casual style of the second half of the century. These are natural shifts of zeitgeist which occur quite frequently, as many a student of historical dress can attest too.


Having an amazing suit is not the only way you can look good. You can look good without forking out on expensive suits and the like.
And yeah, I think older music is better.
Seriously, have you SEEN some of the crap that passes for 'fashion' these days?
Lady Gaga wears a ****ing meat suit for christs sake. I know she is an extreme example, but half the stuff I see in fashion sections of the newspaper is just as bad as that.

You are confusing fashion with style. Lady Gaga=fashion, James Bond=style. To explain briefly the sentiment.

[Volya]

Alexander III: Surprising, I'm on your side in this argument xD
I agree with you. What I was trying to say is, the stuff that models and fashion shows are showing nowadays, is ****. And a lot of the youth today dress like chavs and gangsters, because apparently it gives you 'swag'.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

1. You can look great. I know guys who look amazing, they don't spend over £100 on one item of clothing.

2. Older music that I listen to? Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, Oasis, The Police, Bob Marley, UB40, Queen, and a whole load of others. Whats the most 'popular' music right now? Dubstep, Gaga, Bieber. Yep, I prefer the older stuff.

3. I even said myself that Lady Gaga was an extreme example. But the majority of other 'fashion' models I see wear similar stuff. It looks like crap on the runway, it looks like crap on the street.

Also, if it helps for you to understand my opinion of music. The best of the old, is better than the best of the new. Sure theres some good stuff now, but it doesn't compare to back then.
Oasis is older music? You just made me feel old, and I'm 25. :lol:

[Alexander III]

1. You can look great. I know guys who look amazing, they don't spend over £100 on one item of clothing.


Are we including personal physical beauty into the equation? If so, I am sure Phoebes would still be beautiful in a garbage bag. If we are talking purely cloths, then true beauty unfortunately requires money. Money is not required to look good; but for true perfection you need money. There is a reason Byron almost bankrupted himself on account of his waist-coats.


2. Older music that I listen to? Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, Oasis, The Police, Bob Marley, UB40, Queen, and a whole load of others. Whats the most 'popular' music right now? Dubstep, Gaga, Bieber. Yep, I prefer the older stuff.

99% of music in the 70's and 60's was crap which is not remembered today. History has already selected the best for you, in terms of contemporary music 99% will be crap, just like in every age. Except there is no historical filter to divide the crap and genius, you must do that for yourself.


3. I even said myself that Lady Gaga was an extreme example. But the majority of other 'fashion' models I see wear similar stuff. It looks like crap on the runway, it looks like crap on the street.

As a man who attends London fashion week, I have no idea what you are talking about, there is runway fashion and then there is consumer fashion, there is a difference, in terms of consumer fashion the last two years have been extraordinary and it is getting better each year.


Also, if it helps for you to understand my opinion of music. The best of the old, is better than the best of the new. Sure theres some good stuff now, but it doesn't compare to back then.

:rolleyes5:

[Emil Miller]

I am quite sure I mentioned this a few months ago and you dismissed it. Also I doubt it has much to do with the economy, rather it is a culture shift. Since 1969 casual clothing was rebellion, it was youth - now when casual clothing is representative of conformity and of generations in their 40's plus, the new concept of rebellion in clothing is elegance, youth now looks back to the first half of the 21st century not with the disparaging eye of seeing conformity and rigidness, rather we see a lost elegance and taste which has been killed in the conformist-casual style of the second half of the century. These are natural shifts of zeitgeist which occur quite frequently, as many a student of historical dress can attest too.

If I remember rightly, I remarked that, if what you said was true, I was in favour of it. I do think that if someone is applying for a job, the days of turning up in a baseball cap and scruffy jeans is over. It is obvious that in times of boom ( i.e. borrowed money ) the general populace will be calling the shots.
In times of bust (i.e. payback time) the general populace will no longer be calling the shots and will conform to the prevailing requirements.

[Clopin]

I agree with Alex about everything he just posted. {edit} Volya be careful not to make such wide, sweeping generalizations. You must be aware that not all fashion today is lady gaga and not all of today's music is dubstep.

I'm reminded of people who think that every foreign film is better than the fare we get in North America because they go to a foreign film festival that specifically showcases the absolute best (or at least most popular) foreign films.


But at my university there is a cult of dandyism, well at least at my college, and tailored blazers/spoart-coats are quite normal, as well as ever variation of trouser color one can imagine.


Meh, that doesn't sound too dandy to me. Even the worst piece of clothing you own should be tailored to fit and blazers can be an everyday wear thrown over a t shirt and dark denim.

Also there are people who complain about contemporary literature as if every novel written in the 19th century was a masterpiece and writers today are absolute incompetents. Idiotic people.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yes, Volya is 15. Keep that in mind . . . and maybe try not to jump his case so harshly. He hardly said anything worth that kind of criticism. I like having younger minds around here, so maybe we can try and *not* bully them away, hmm?



99% of music in the 70's and 60's was crap which is not remembered today. History has already selected the best for you, in terms of contemporary music 99% will be crap, just like in every age. Except there is no historical filter to divide the crap and genius, you must do that for yourself.



Well, I'm not sure about the percentages, but the idea I agree with. (Though it seems a lot of what history has filtered out is crap, too.)

[Volya]

Don't get me wrong, I do like some modern music and style xD It's just I prefer that of the older generations.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Please do not discuss each other but the topic at hand.

Off-topic posts have been and will be removed without further notice.

~

[Volya]

Meh, that doesn't sound too dandy to me. Even the worst piece of clothing you own should be tailored to fit and blazers can be an everyday wear thrown over a t shirt and dark denim.


I wouldn't wear a blazer with anything other than a shirt and trousers. It just doesn't work for casual wear. At my school we are forced to maintain relatively high uniform standards: blazer, tie, the full set-up (and we must follow the hair-cut regulations -_- )

Although I do personally think our uniform is pretty smart and 'gentleman-like', I dare say that the other teenagers on the street disagree with me...
Which brings me back to my point that I dislike some modern fashion trends.
Alexander; you're in England (London, right?). Surely everyday you see teenagers walking the streets dressed like chavs and hooligans. And this is considered to be 'cool' apparently.

[Alexander III]

I wouldn't wear a blazer with anything other than a shirt and trousers. It just doesn't work for casual wear. At my school we are forced to maintain relatively high uniform standards: blazer, tie, the full set-up (and we must follow the hair-cut regulations -_- )

Although I do personally think our uniform is pretty smart and 'gentleman-like', I dare say that the other teenagers on the street disagree with me...
Which brings me back to my point that I dislike some modern fashion trends.
Alexander; you're in England (London, right?). Surely everyday you see teenagers walking the streets dressed like chavs and hooligans. And this is considered to be 'cool' apparently.

I live in Oxford but I often visit London. Yes the majority of university people and teenagers dress horribly. But the majority of people are just that, the masses, the hoi poloi, who have neither interest in art, philosophy or beauty. There is a hierarchy of things and some deserve to be on top and the majority deserve to be at the bottom. I am not an egalitarian, some are fit to be kings and others fit to be slaves. However I do not judge the man fit to be a slave, for behaving like a slave; anymore than I judge a tiger which hunts or a tree that withers in winter.

[Clopin]

Yes, Volya is 15. Keep that in mind . . . and maybe try not to jump his case so harshly. He hardly said anything worth that kind of criticism. I like having younger minds around here, so maybe we can try and *not* bully them away, hmm?


Well, I'm not sure about the percentages, but the idea I agree with. (Though it seems a lot of what history has filtered out is crap, too.)

{edit}

SO HEY VOLYA I THINK THAT YOUR INTEREST IN DISCUSSION AND IDEAS AT A YOUNG AGE IS INDICATIVE OF YOUR INTELLIGENCE BUT THAT YOU ALSO HAVE SOME OPINIONS WHICH ARE VERY IGNORANT AND GENERALIZED WHICH IS LIKELY DUE TO YOUR BEING SO YOUNG AND NOT A DEFAULT IN YOUR REASONING POWER.


I wouldn't wear a blazer with anything other than a shirt and trousers. It just doesn't work for casual wear.

A blazer works for day to day casual wear. You're sixteen right? You would likely look like you were putting on airs if you had a few tailored blazers and wore them everyday.



Surely everyday you see teenagers walking the streets dressed like chavs and hooligans. And this is considered to be 'cool' apparently.

Who considers it cool? Certainly not people with sense, style, not men of history or men to be admired. You're still in jr.high so it makes sense that your perception of what is 'cool' would be somewhat influenced by what your mongoloid peers do, or act like.

[JuniperWoolf]

If we are talking purely cloths, then true beauty unfortunately requires money. Money is not required to look good; but for true perfection you need money.

Or skill. Typically scholars and artists have always been poor unless they had an auspicious birth, which means you have people in every generation who have an appreciation of beauty and art who find themselves in a position where they feel inclined to be inventive and resourceful.

[Volya]

Clopin: Erm, why the need for all-caps? And where (in the fashion thread) have I made ignorant or generalized statements.

The point about blazers being casual/not casual, is really down to opinion so I shan't argue that point any further. (Also I'm 15, not 16)

Who considers it cool? The vast majority of the youth. I certainly don't think it's cool, I think it looks stupid and chavvy. I'd also take it kindly if you didn't refer to my peers as mongoloids, since as it happens, most of them don't wear that kind of ****ty clothing.

[Clopin]

I didn't mean to insult your friends holmie, I was only referring to the "The vast majority of youth" who do dress that way, according to you. They are mongoloids in a non literal sense.

And it's more the fact that you probably routinely listen to about a dozen big name bands but think you can speak down to me about what generation had "better" music, a sentiment you can observe everywhere from youtube to old myspace profiles. I mean come on, does anyone else here remember "I like all kinds of music, except country and rap", which I suppose nowadays would have to be "I like all kinds of music, except country and dubstep".

p.s - you're a qt pie :3

[Volya]

How was I speaking down to you...?
And like I said, there is good music nowadays. But if you take the best from back then, and compare it to the best from now, the stuff back then IS better.

[Clopin]

How do you know?

[Volya]

Because I have listened to what I think is the best of then and now, and I like that of then more.

[Clopin]

But you don't even know of all the music there is being made right now. You probably know very little of it in fact, so how can you tell what's the best? What is this "best of" now that you hold in comparison to bands like Oasis...

[Alexander III]

Actually Voyla, what do you think is the best of the now?

[Clopin]

Anyways I'm going to post some music that I like from 1990 and onward, all bands who are still making music today.

Aphex Twin - Ambient electronic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDKukD88zq4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef0XA3AMVMA

The Magnetic Fields - Large output covering a variety of genres from art rock to synth pop to folk, country and disco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvQ5Lvd20uU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo8vW_0H_Kg

Boris - One of the more prolific bands right now, Japanese stoner doom, drome, hard rock, lots of spotty albums but also lots of solid output.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFveIrFwKeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-tUXR_ekBA

Earth - Drone, Drone doom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWb1ppSvSjY&feature=related

Joanna Newsom - Beautiful lyricist and harpist, conveying images of childhood, woodwork, scrapbooks, yarn and glue. Ranging from very childlike shrieking vocals and simple piano and harp melodies to elaborate orchestrations and slow melodies, my favorite musician.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Greq05zAS9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-xUpdO3g44&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UUe3Q54qFg

Windir - Black metal, folk metal, electronic, Norwegian music sung in an old and specific dialect, mostly about fairy tales or folk tales of the region.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6h0lhXW3Q&feature=related

And so much more.

[Volya]

I don't really like any modern bands xD
Mumford and Sons are alright, My Chemical Romance, the Killers.
But 'good' music by definition of the general public? Eminem, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, ****ing One Direction.

[Clopin]

Peste Noire - Cool black metal band from France, lots of medieval imagery and aesthetics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMTLSd2iRA8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99nOkpTPOD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d48amP2HONE&feature=related

Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Crescendo core, post rock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg0VWxVqAmM

Burzum - Norwegian black metal, ambient

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPyOhP1GTRQ

What public? Here's Joanna Newsom selling out Carnegie hall. Plenty of people like good music that is current and being made today.

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2010/11/joanna_newsom_p_7.html

I'm also willing to bet you have no idea about most of the "old" music either and think that the best of it was Led Zeppelin, the Beatles and The Rolling Stones.

[Volya]

the Beatles were the best of it :p

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

the Beatles were the best of it :p

I gotta agree with him, here. :nod:

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

The OP:


So I just wanted to start a thread about the discussion of fashion, if anyone is interested. I figured on a literature site we would have everything from "couldnt care less" to full on enthusiasts.

Personally I am and will always be an aesthetic man - for me what counts and always will count is appearances. Unless the person is an intimate person in my circle, I will judge them 90% on solely appearances. I suppose I am not the only one who does this, so being aesthetically perfect has always been one of my passions along with literature.

I have always found that the way one dresses, is one of the clearest forms of communication about "who they are"

So anyone else an Oscar Wildean dandy like myself or am I a solitary china vase on these forums?

Also, I would think that people who have a passion for literature, art and music or rather any art form; would also be very attentive about their wardrobe. Personally I have a keen sense for beauty and think that any man who has a keen sense of beauty would aspire to make himself into a work of art - as only that which is beautiful is useful.

Please do not discuss each other but the topic at hand.

Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

[Emil Miller]

Now that this thread has been recalled to its original subject matter, I dedicate this little number to Alex:


http://youtu.be/tFS758_rmtg

[E.A Rumfield]

So I just wanted to start a thread about the discussion of fashion, if anyone is interested. I figured on a literature site we would have everything from "couldnt care less" to full on enthusiasts.

Personally I am and will always be an aesthetic man - for me what counts and always will count is appearances. Unless the person is an intimate person in my circle, I will judge them 90% on solely appearances. I suppose I am not the only one who does this, so being aesthetically perfect has always been one of my passions along with literature.

I have always found that the way one dresses, is one of the clearest forms of communication about "who they are"

So anyone else an Oscar Wildean dandy like myself or am I a solitary china vase on these forums?

Also, I would think that people who have a passion for literature, art and music or rather any art form; would also be very attentive about their wardrobe. Personally I have a keen sense for beauty and think that any man who has a keen sense of beauty would aspire to make himself into a work of art - as only that which is beautiful is useful.

That sounds so terribly shallow and vain that I almost feel sorry for you. You keep referring to yourself as a dandy and where I come from, that is a title no self-respecting man would bestow upon himself. We might call you a poser or a yuppie or some similar word. That being said you would fit in with all the yuppie hipsters in Williamsburg Brooklyn or Greenwich Village in Manhattan but personally I despise those people. Dressing like an uncomfortable ******* doesn't make you cultured. Being cultured makes you cultured, ya dig. Being a hippie doesn't make you hip. I personally belong to no sect or cult but am cultured merely because I know a lot about a wide variety of things. I can hold a conversation with someone interested in music, art, philosophy, poetry, film you name it and that's not fake and it has nothing to do with my shoes those things simply interest me. They interest me like malt liquor and parties in the hood. No one would think I spend my days reading Robinson Jeffers volumes of verse poetry, no you would say that guy there, he's a construction worker or so similarly despicable foul mouthy character. And you're right clothing does tell a lot about the person, are you about a lot of nothing or do you know what you are about and what you stand for deep inside. That being said I am a fan of old winter coats like long woolen jackets or trench coats. Other than that I am a simple jeans and t shirt sweat shirt kind of guy.

[Emil Miller]

I personally belong to no sect or cult but am cultured merely because I know a lot about a wide variety of things.

Do I hear echos of Alexander here ?

[Scheherazade]

~

F i n a l____W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments or discuss each other.

~

[Paulclem]

From the OP:

Personally I am and will always be an aesthetic man - for me what counts and always will count is appearances. Unless the person is an intimate person in my circle, I will judge them 90% on solely appearances.

It's not a criticism , but don't you think this view might leave you open to being overly influenced in a possibly negative way?

Should someone observe that you judge people thus, then wouldn't it then be easy to impress and manipulate you for whatever reason?

On a less nefarious note, we all try to create an impression of sorts whether it be the usual "out to impress" impression, an anti impression by punks or other fashionable sub cultures, or the kind of non-impression I suspect people of a certain age might want.

We all know and see the "look at me" type person who is desperate to make an impression, and frankly they are predictable, and maybe somewhat pitiable, even if they are nice to look at. I say pitiable in the sense that they are defined by how people perceive them, and slavishly adhere to their idea of how people should see them. Perhaps they are really insecure control freaks trying to master their own image in the eyes of others.

What may be of more interest - purely because we've all noticed the former types so much and they get a lot of visual "airplay" - could be the ones who are trying to blend in and go unnoticed. Why would they want to do that? What are they hiding/ afraid of/ avoiding? Or do they have another motive for going unnoticed? Whereas the "look at me" types are very familiar, I think the other type of dresser is much more interesting. There's surely more interesting mileage in the virtually invisibles.

[Clopin]

I think Fashion is pretty cool and says a lot about your personal sense of aesthetics. A lot of people have no eye for it though and all that says about them is that they don't care about fashion. I wouldn't seriously debate this with Alex because he seems to just like saying things like this to get a rise out of people.

[phoenixtears]

I don't like fashion. Those stylish clothes are usually a false facade and have got nothing to do with the character of the person.

[Emil Miller]

I don't like fashion. Those stylish clothes are usually a false facade and have got nothing to do with the character of the person.

You might think so but it does show that the person takes pride in their appearance and, as has been pointed out already, style and fashion are not necessarily the same thing.

[Oedipus]

"Unless the person is an intimate person in my circle, I will judge them 90% on solely appearances" - That's because you are vacuous.

The wearing of clothing is a display of digust with the human body; why else hide under these layers?

[miyako73]

9219

If the design is like that, I'm willing to be dehumanized to the level of mannequins.

[Sweetgirl]

In my opinion, you can't judge people by what they wear. To some people clothes are a way of expressing themselves, so they chose to wear something to show their personality or an aspect of their life, whereas for others getting dressed is just a part of their daily routine, like brushing their teeth, brushing their hair etc. I try to obide by the rule : don't judge.

[cacian]

In my opinion, you can't judge people by what they wear. To some people clothes are a way of expressing themselves, so they chose to wear something to show their personality or an aspect of their life, whereas for others getting dressed is just a part of their daily routine, like brushing their teeth, brushing their hair etc. I try to obide by the rule : don't judge.

I do. clothes speak volume of a person. that is first impression counts.