UK Riots

[Patrick_Bateman]

http://i55.tinypic.com/25uhziv.gif

Booom!

[JBI]

damn, he got taken down. Must be the shop owner.

[Emil Miller]

But what about the criminal's human rights?

[Lokasenna]

Bravo to the fellow in green! As someone who comes from a family of shopkeepers, I know what the feeling is like when someone vandalises/robs your business.

That said, I wouldn't have rugby tackled a man wielding a crowbar. I'd take a crowbar of my own into the fight.

The right to protest is one thing, but this is just wanton criminality.

[Emil Miller]

Bravo to the fellow in green! As someone who comes from a family of shopkeepers, I know what the feeling is like when someone vandalises/robs your business.

That said, I wouldn't have rugby tackled a man wielding a crowbar. I'd take a crowbar of my own into the fight.

The right to protest is one thing, but this is just wanton criminality.

Of course,you must realise that taking a crowbar to deal with a crowbar- wielding criminal could get you into serious trouble with the boy scouts (sorry) I mean the local constabulary? Nothing political about it but be prepared to have the thread closed down as a result of this post.

[OrphanPip]

No one who would wear those pants deserves human rights.

[JuniperWoolf]

Agreed. Skin-tight capri track pants? I didn't even know that such a disturbing thing existed.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

So, why are people setting London on fire? As someone who plans to visit there in a couple short months, I'm a bit troubled.

[Calidore]

Wish I could go. My sister and father have both been there, both for pleasure and to research family, and they enjoyed it a lot. Very pricey, though, I'm told.

I wouldn't worry much about the rioting. This explosion will burn itself out well before a couple months pass, but the police will probably still be on guard then. Plus, they're going to have to save face before the Olympics show up next year. So if anything, I'd venture a guess that things will be safer than usual when you're there.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I hope so. They can riot all they want as far as I'm concerned, just as long as the museums and pubs aren't shut down, the latter of which I'm pretty sure never happens.

[irishpixieb]

Whats going on over there really needs to stop. I hope that this gets resolved soon!

[JuniperWoolf]

Apparently, it's just a bunch of "young sh*theads" who randomly decided to start destorying things five days ago. I'm told it's as simple as that. Most of the rioters are about ten years old (check out the size of the kid with the crowbar).

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, at least when the USA riots, there's a reason (even if it is a sports team winning/losing some event--the UK has us beat in severity with those too, though). I don't think we riot enough.

[Maryd.]

Well guys I was here during the riots. My girl says we survived the "big riots of London, 2011." I dare say due to the rioting we avoided some sightseeing at nights. Which was sad really I had planned for this trip for 17 years.

I have had to listen to the updates due to the kids and our holiday. Even thought of cutting the trip short. But I was here for 8 days and saw nothing in the areas/sights we were visiting. So it didn't effect us at all. I guess as a parent one has to be vigilant. But we only missed one attraction and that was due to running out of time.

It seems the riots started off as a slight racial issue and blew out of proportion so a few thugs could "nik" a plasma or computer or game consoles... Whatever!

Funny how these things start, but let's see who ends them. Anyway off to catch a flight back home to Oz.

[Patrick_Bateman]

Apparently, it's just a bunch of "young sh*theads" who randomly decided to start destorying things five days ago. I'm told it's as simple as that. Most of the rioters are about ten years old (check out the size of the kid with the crowbar).

Well the riots on Friday began following a peaceful vigil outside a police station after an unarmed black man was shot dead in a taxi by police. But since then (especially with regards to the cities outside the capital flaring up) it has been all about looting and creating havoc after they saw what they could get away with on Friday.
It's quite unbelievable that although it is mainly youths that are responsible - and there is a socio-economic element to the violence - there are also some more unlikely memebers of the community who have been convicted of crimes and looting.
A 31 year old teacher, a youth worker (yes that's right) a steward from the Royal Opera House, a Graphic Designer,students an 11 year old child.

It's amazing what days of anomie can make seemingly responsible and respectable adults do.

There were images of parents with their kids loading up cars and trolleys from broken shop window.

[OrphanPip]

I read a 43 year old organic chef was arrested attempting to break the windows of a Nando's chicken restaurant. Hilarious.

[MystyrMystyry]

Sales of baseball bats went up 5000 % - not quite so hilarious

But the teacher's assistant tool who covered his face from a television camera with a newspaper and walked straight into a lightpole - that was a good job by the media :)

[Alexander III]

I am incredibly disgusted b what's going on - and the general consensus I see from facebook and twitter and such is that ever one is exasperated and is essentially saying "**** human right, police just stop them" - and I don't blame them, these people are ruining entire communities. They burn down various stores which if not adequately insured means lots of people will loose their jobs. The people who have the most hate for these rioters are the working class people who have jobs and don't live off of government benefits, because they are the ones most damaged by these rioters.

There is a huge sense of chagrin at being english right now. Just goes to show for every peaceful and well aimed intelligent protest - there is another protest of drunken idiots burning and looting at letting out all their anger against a system which they despise, yet ironically, this same system is the equivalent of being born with a silver spoon in your mouth compared to 90% of the rest of the world...

On a more personal level, I believe in Human Rights - but more importantly I believe that one Losses all their Human Rights the second they infringe upon the Human Rights of others.

[Red-Headed]

But what about the criminal's human rights?

Criminals don't have human rights.



There is a huge sense of chagrin at being english right now.

Is there? This is news to me.


Just goes to show for every peaceful and well aimed intelligent protest - there is another protest of drunken idiots burning and looting at letting out all their anger against a system which they despise,


This is no protest, it is just a minority criminal element taking the piss. If they hate the system & the country that much why don't they leave?

Is robbing people at knife-point, vehicular homicide & looting plasma screens & designer clothes from shops an actual form of protest?

From day one the Old Bill should have got up off their arses & hit them hard & fast. These pond life looters only respect fear & pain. I would like to give it to them.

These riots were not protests, they were unjustifiable criminal acts.

[wessexgirl]

No one who would wear those pants deserves human rights.

:D I think you'll find he is quite sartorially elegant in comparison to many of them. Check out the hoodies.

I think it has been proved that the man shot dead in the original incident was carrying a gun. He didn't fire it, but I'm sure he had one on him. There are conflicting reports as to the circumstances (as ever). On the one hand he was an innocent family man going about his business, on the other he was known to police and the community as a gangster, and I think if you look at his facebook page, there seems to be some evidence to point towards this version.

However, that's all irrelevant, as those doing the looting don't give a rat's a*** about that. They are in it for the thieving and general anarchy. I can't understand how they were allowed to get away with it for so long. At the risk of being political, cuts in police numbers anyone, with pockets of anarchy springing up everywhere, and less police to handle it? London had a massive influx of coppers from around the country to protect them, so what happens, rioting kicking off elsewhere. I think the general mood of the country at the moment is hit them hard, instead of standing back, but hopefully things are dying down now.

[Red-Headed]

I think it has been proved that the man shot dead in the original incident was carrying a gun. He didn't fire it, but I'm sure he had one on him. There are conflicting reports as to the circumstances (as ever). On the one hand he was an innocent family man going about his business, on the other he was known to police and the community as a gangster ....

SO19 don't shoot people without good reason.


I can't understand how they were allowed to get away with it for so long.

Because the police are not allowed to do their job as pond life have 'human rights' apparently.

What about the 'human rights' of the victims?

[OrphanPip]

Oh, police certainly do occasionally kill people without good reason. A couple months ago Montreal police shot a mentally handicapped man because he was cutting up garbage bags downtown. And they also managed to miss him and kill a hospital orderly riding his bicycle to work. Police **** up all the time.

[Red-Headed]

Oh, police certainly do occasionally kill people without good reason. A couple months ago Montreal police shot a mentally handicapped man because he was cutting up garbage bags downtown. And they also managed to miss him and kill a hospital orderly riding his bicycle to work. Police **** up all the time.

As a rule *CO19 don't though. There is the case of de Menezes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes) on 7/7, but that was a very unusual & unprecedented situation. If Trident thought Duggan was a gangster who am I to argue? Do we let drug dealers & gangsters rule our streets or do we give them 'human rights'. I'd like to give them the right to remain six feet under.

* Formerly SO19

[Emil Miller]

The problem with British police and firearms is that, unlike a majority of foreign police forces, they don't have the experience of carrying a sidearm as a matter of course. It has always amazed me that these officers are required to put their lives on the line without sufficient protection. Personally, I like to see police wearing guns when ever I am abroad, it shows that they mean business to any potential criminal. I am not a believer in community policing where police officers help old ladies across the road while blue murder is being committed elsewhere.

[Red-Headed]

The problem with British police and firearms is that, unlike a majority of foreign police forces, they don't have the experience of carrying a sidearm as a matter of course.

That's what CO19 (http://www.met.police.uk/co19/) are for. The only real problem with the British police is that too many groups give 'human rights' to criminals. If they could have been allowed to go in fast with force they would have nipped much of the pond life looters in the bud. When they made a show in Birmingham the criminals, being the brave looters they are, went elsewhere, taking their human rights with them.

Duggan was shot by Trident, a gang task force & one of the most highly trained anti-crime units in the world. They are probably more trained with firearms than most Continental police are. The training is highly specialist & constant. The idea that the British police are incompetent with firearms is bollocks.

[Emil Miller]

That's what CO19 (http://www.met.police.uk/co19/) are for.

I would still feel more secure if officers were uniformly armed. This wouldn't preclude armed response units like CO19, of which I am strongly in favour. I worked for the MoD police as a civilian. Every single one of them had to pass a firearms module before they were considered eligible and were also obliged to keep up to the mark with range practice. With IRA terrorists on the rampage at the time, they were vital for protecting defence installations throughout the UK and, with maniacal fundamentalists roaming the country, they still are.

[Red-Headed]

I would still feel more secure if officers were uniformly armed.

I wouldn't. I don't see how it would have helped in a riot situation.

[Hawkman]

I would still feel more secure if officers were uniformly armed. This wouldn't preclude armed response units like CO19, of which I am strongly in favour. I worked for the MoD police as a civilian. Every single one of them had to pass a firearms module before they were considered eligible and were also obliged to keep up to the mark with range practice. With IRA terrorists on the rampage at the time, they were vital for protecting defence installations throughout the UK and, with maniacal fundamentalists roaming the country, they still are.

I remember when the MOd Plods started carrying sidearms. I was a regular serviceman at the time. I also remember a discussion I had with a Mod Plod regarding the restrictions governing his use of it. He was required to keep it unloaded. He was only allowed to load it in the event of a direct armed challenge and before he could he had to tell whoever was challenging him that he was about to load his weapon. He was not allowed to make it ready until he had told his assailant that he was about to do so. He then could only fire in self defence after declaring that he was about to fire.

In the event of his having to defend his post he would probably have been dead before he had the opportunity to do any of the above. He may have been exaggerating, of course, but in the light of the firearms training I was given at the time, it had the ring of truth about it.

By the 1990's armed servicemen were guarding the main gates of military establishments with fully automatic weapons.

If the average bobby was armed as he walked the streets, I for one would not feel safer. It is almost certain that there would have been widespread bloodshed during the riots and not all the victims would have been rioters. If the riots were supposedly sparked over the killing of one armed man, what would have happened after half a dozen more unarmed ones had been killed.

Lethal force is overkill in such situations. The riot squad are quite capable of causing enough mahyem with battons. But they should definately have been deployed quickly.

Unfortunately, with criminals using secure communications to organize their looting sprees, it was very difficult for the police to anticipate and deploy countermeasures in so fluid a situation.

[Emil Miller]

I wouldn't. I don't see how it would have helped in a riot situation.

I mean secure on a day-to-day basis where a lot of criminals would think twice about committing crime when the authority of the law was enforced visibly by the sight of a sidearm. I can remember when a piece of trash called Harry Roberts shot and killed two police officers while his accomplice killed a third, when he was planning one of his many robberies. If they had been armed, it would have given them the chance to kill Roberts and the other criminal and save their own lives.
There are plenty of scum like Roberts at large and dear old Dixon of Dock Green isn't the way to deal with them.

[Red-Headed]

I mean secure on a day-to-day basis where a lot of criminals would think twice about committing crime when the authority of the law was enforced visibly by the sight of a sidearm.

There is a counter-argument to this which isn't difficult to deduce.


I can remember when a piece of trash called Harry Roberts shot and killed two police officers while his accomplice killed a third, when he was planning one of his many robberies. If they had been armed, it would have given them the chance to kill Roberts and the other criminal and save their own lives.
There are plenty of scum like Roberts at large and dear old Dixon of Dock Green isn't the way to deal with them.

It's a fair point, but from what I have read, even the police themselves are not particularly enthusiastic about carrying sidearms.

[Paulclem]

The riots even came to coventry!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0x9WM_Xu9Y

[Emil Miller]

I remember when the MOd Plods started carrying sidearms. I was a regular serviceman at the time. I also remember a discussion I had with a Mod Plod regarding the restrictions governing his use of it. He was required to keep it unloaded. He was only allowed to load it in the event of a direct armed challenge and before he could he had to tell whoever was challenging him that he was about to load his weapon. He was not allowed to make it ready until he had told his assailant that he was about to do so. He then could only fire in self defence after declaring that he was about to fire.

Even if this is true, the very fact that a para-military force is patrolling the defence estate with dogs is obviously of some value. I'm aware that regular army personnel carry out guard duty at defence establishments and, unfortunately, the two forces don't always get on with each other, particularly in garrison towns.




There is a counter-argument to this which isn't difficult to deduce.

It's a fair point, but from what I have read, even the police themselves are not particularly enthusiastic about carrying sidearms.

Yes but I don't accept it. Criminals who determine to use a gun don't need armed police as an excuse, as the current preponderance of gun crime in the UK would indicate.

If it were a condition of service, as it obviously is in other countries, they would carry them of necessity.

[Red-Headed]

Yes but I don't accept it. Criminals who determine to use a gun don't need armed police as an excuse, as the current preponderance of gun crime in the UK would indicate.

You're probably right. It will be a sad day though when the Old Bill finally admit defeat.

[Red-Headed]

The competing arguments used to explain the riots. ~ BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149)

[TheFifthElement]

Really, the only real deterrent to crime is the risk of being caught. The higher the risk of being caught, the less likely a person will commit a crime (excepting crimes of 'passion' of course, which don't have the same kind of level of forethought). That's why the majority of people seem to think it's 'acceptable' to commit copyright theft (illegal downloading and copying of media) whereas they wouldn't for an instant consider going into HMV and walking out with the DVDs they wanted stuffed under their arms. Hence the riots. An unexpected event in London sparked a riot which showed the rest of the country that they could loot and the police wouldn't really do much about it. And a load of people joined in because, heck, the probability of actually being caught and paying the penalty for it seemed extremely low. But they're the excuses you hear about speeding, and copyright theft, and insurance fraud and all those sorts of 'minor' crimes all the time. There's a thin line between the ordinary man and the 'criminal'. Most people just aren't really prepared to admit it. The sad thing is, as long as we as a society tolerate the minor offences, the major offences are an inevitability.

Giving the police guns won't solve anything. If anything it will simply cause those petty criminals who would commit their crimes without weapons to arm themselves. It just makes everything more dangerous. Equipping the police with better tools to catch criminals with would have a much greater impact. And that includes those 'minor' crimes that are endemic in British culture that 'ordinary' people day in day out commit without a second thought.

[Emil Miller]

Really, the only real deterrent to crime is the risk of being caught. The higher the risk of being caught, the less likely a person will commit a crime (excepting crimes of 'passion' of course, which don't have the same kind of level of forethought).

This is the usual liberal nonsense whenever something like this happens.
There is no fear of being caught when the end result is a a slap on the wrist. As one of the looters said to the BBC's crime correspondent at the scene of a looting: "Even if I'm caught, they will only give me an ASBO, my parents might shout at me and I can live with that."

[TheFifthElement]

I was going to answer your post but after reading this:

This is the usual liberal nonsense whenever something like this happens.
I call 'Emil's law' which is like 'Godwin's law' but involves Emil Miller using whatever means possible to blame liberalism for something thus ending the thread by making it 'political'.

Yawn.

[Emil Miller]

I was going to answer your post but after reading this:

I call 'Emil's law' which is like 'Godwin's law' but involves Emil Miller using whatever means possible to blame liberalism for something thus ending the thread by making it 'political'.

Yawn.

Not at all, this is liberalism with a small L and concerns not the Liberal party pers se but the philosophy of laissez-faire and its consequences.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I was going to answer your post but after reading this:

I call 'Emil's law' which is like 'Godwin's law' but involves Emil Miller using whatever means possible to blame liberalism for something thus ending the thread by making it 'political'.

Yawn.
:lol:

I'm pretty liberal (by American standards), and I think law enforcement should carry guns, end of story. Still, we have no shortage of guns over here.

[tonywalt]

Well said Emil.:cheers2: The rubbish the media is spewing out along with certain "community leaders" is only justifying and promoting the clear criminality.

[Paulclem]

There's very little, if any, regard for the rioters here.

We have the usual conundrum of the press. They give extensive reportage to it which results in copycat rioting across a few cities. If they hadn't, there wouldn't have been further outbreaks elsewhere. But that would interfere with press freedom. But is it in the public interest to have covered it so extensively and give these idiots any airspace?

[Emil Miller]

Well said Emil.:cheers2: The rubbish the media is spewing out along with certain "community leaders" is only justifying and promoting the clear criminality.

You can see it, a lot of other people can see it and I can see it, but it's amazing that there are so many who can't or refuse to see it. Ultimately, they are the cause of the problem.

[Vonny]

I'm not able to read or comprehend this thread now, so I hope this fits.

My dad used to kick our chickens. If you break an egg inside a chicken, it dies. Every day we would go out and find another dead chicken. When our cow bloated up, rather than call a vet, he wanted to stab it with an ice pick, and when my mom wouldn't relinquish the ice pick, he beat her.

It was okay for him to pick up my cats "by the scruff of the neck" and throw them across the house.

He shot our dog through the head. He did it to punish my brother. And the police said, when they arrived after 2 hours, "We can do nothing to a man for shooting his own dog." My mom said, "But it's illegal to shoot in proximity to a house." Oh well.

My father kicked down our front door, then sat arrogantly in the doorway, waiting for the police to arrive, because he knew those police. When the police got there, they told us, "We can do nothing to a man for kicking down the door of his own house."

My brother would have an asthma attack every day at 5 p.m., the time when my father came home from work. The pediatritian concluded that there was an emotional component.

On Sunday, preparing for church, I remember my father grabbing my brother by the shirt collar to button the top button of his shirt. My brother stutters to this day. People must have wondered why my brothers ear lobe was pulled loose from his head, and Miss Johns, my first grade teacher, must have wondered why the tip of my nose was always rather blue. (but I love Miss Johns, if she hadn't taught me to read, I could've never learned later.) My father had a habit of pinching my nose, don't ask me why.

Where my dad worked, he was known as a good family man. He knew to always aim more for the body, so the bruises wouldn't show. I remember how the brusies on my mom's hip, the size of grapefriuits, would change color from day to day. They went through the entire spectrum.

It was when my brothers began to hold my father at gunpoint that he went away.

If this doesn't read well, it's because I'm typing on a very tiny, stupid device.

He broke into our home while everyone was at school and my mom at her babysitting job, and stole our guns, but my brother David brought us more.

My mother cowering, my brother Stephen, age 13, standing inside the house, pointing the rifle at door, called out, "Kick down that door, I dare ya." There's no question that he was prepared to shoot, and my dad knew it. That was the first time my father reconsidered. And he didn't knock down our door again.

It wasn't too long after that that my dad vanished, and we haven't seen him since.

My brother David says, always with a chuckle, "Guns keep people polite. In my opinion, that's all they do."

oh god, do I "submit" this? okay, I'll take that leap.

[Paulclem]

The riots seem shocking, but they are like the previous riots we've had in this country - particularly the riots in the early 80s, and the Poll tax riots were often hijacked by the criminal element as usual.

Perhaps we're more like the French than we like to think.:)

I jest of course.

[Paulclem]

I posted as you did Vonny. Shocking, but familiar to me - this nasty violent thread in some blokes. It's even more shocking that there was no support for your family from external agencies. It was like that here in the 70s and 80s. Perhaps it still is.

[Emil Miller]

I'm not able to read or comprehend this thread now, so I hope this fits..

Vonny, nobody reading you can fail to admire you but, setting all that aside, as much as it will make certain Englishmen and women wet their knickers, yes, guns do 'keep people polite', which is why most police forces in the world carry them.'

Edit: And before anyone points out the level of crime in the USA where police are armed, ask yourself this question: What would it would be like without them?

[Vonny]

I'm honestly not too sure how I feel about guns. Our police force is paramilitary.

We protected my dad because we felt personally ashamed of what was happening to us. My mother felt ashamed that she married my dad. Her family didn't approve of her marrying him, so they wouldn't help us in any way. We lived very far out in the country.

I still hate to "inflict" that story onto people! It feels weird to do it even now, annonymously.

Okay here's an edit: I don't know how much I trust in police. Even when I see a major traffic offender, they don't seem to be around!

[Red-Headed]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, maybe I have no sense of reality, maybe the Easter Bunny is an imposter, maybe I listen to too much Wagner & Puccini, maybe my ADHD is cutting in (ooh look shiny ...), but I could have swore that this thread was about the recent rioting.

I know no one is going to agree with me, but I really don't think that the rioting would have been stopped if every beat copper was carrying a Sig Sauer.

We need to focus on what created this whole debacle & not whether it is Glock-time for the rozzers or not.

I don't know about anyone else, but I want some serious answers from the coalition & assurances that this will not happen again.

Has *anyone got a good theory about how this all started?



*Nutters, political extremists, religious fundamentalists & various other yed the ball's please refrain from replying.

[Vonny]

I hope I didn't get the thread off track.

The police themselves... you know they can drive as fast and recklessly as they want. When an off-duty policeman is pulled over, (if he doesn't happen to know that particular policeman, which is unusual in itself) and he's told, "Let me see your driver's licence," what he does is he opens his wallet and takes out his licence and hands it over with his badge on top, and he's free to go.

[tonywalt]

I certainly trust rioting hoodlums a whole lot less than the police.

And I don't trust the academia and media that constantly justify the actions of rioting hoodlums.

[Red-Headed]

The police themselves... you know they can drive as fast and recklessly as they want. When an off-duty policeman is pulled over, (if he doesn't happen to know that particular policeman, which is unusual in itself) and he's told, "Let me see your driver's licence," what he does is he opens his wallet and takes out his licence and hands it over with his badge on top, and he's free to go.

Probably a perk of the job.

[Red-Headed]

And I don't trust the academia and media that constantly justify the actions of rioting hoodlums.

AFAIK no one has 'justified' the actions, academic, media or otherwise. I think that most people are still in a state of shock over why this happened in the first place & more importantly, why it spread to other cities.

Although personally, I refuse to recognise Wolverhampton as a city, this however is a personal thing. It does have problems with gangs of marauding youths though. I think that too many consecutive governments, Labour & Tory, have relied on CCTV replacing traditional policemen 'on the beat'.

I don't know about anyone else, but I want answers. Not the same old bollocks, but real answers.

[Vonny]

I certainly trust rioting hoodlums a whole lot less than the police.

And I don't trust the academia and media that constantly justify the actions of rioting hoodlums.

It would never occur to me that the police would protect me from anything. It seems silly.

I don't know why, but we don't have rioting hoodlums where I live.

In our big city a while back, inside a large store, someone held up the pharmacy for hydrocodone. The pharmacist pulled out his gun and fired. He lost his job because it was a chain store, but I'm sure he was rehired somewhere else.

Why have rioting hoodlums and then sit around and discuss whether they are good or not?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

**** the police.

[Delta40]

they say nobody likes the Police until they need one. With the recent riots in UK, its also obvious that the Police needed community support. Community is diverse. While there are those who are volunteering their time to clean the awful mess, there are those forming vigilante groups who, for some reason think their violence is somehow more justified than the mobs mentality. Baseball bat sales have risen by 5000%. There are also those who stay behind locked doors while other groups peacefully line the street side by side to protect their interests.

I have no doubt negative experiences have a lasting effect but it cannot and should not be applied across a broad horizon, otherwise we remove hope.

[MystyrMystyry]

In 1778 the Catholic Relief Act was enacted to help ease restrictions on Britain's Catholics. The Protestant Association, led by Lord George Gordon, opposed this act and demanded its repeal. On June 2, 1780 the Protestant Association marched to the House of Commons and were joined by a riotous mob of 50,000 Charles Dickens described in Barnaby Rudge as "sprinkled doubtless here and there with honest zealots, but composed for the most part of the very scum and refuse of London."

[Vonny]

Delta, a baseball bat is no good - too heavy and awkward. What's better is a fish billy, which is used for beating fish to death. (Of course, the retractable thing the police use is better, but spendy.) The fish billy I have says "Ugly Billy" on it. It's 18 inches long, made of solid fiberglass. It has a rubber handle that is small in the hand, about an inch thick, and then it graduates to a bit larger at the other end. It is light-weight, and I'm telling you, it's incredible the blow this would deliver, because of the design, how it gets bigger at the other end, weighting it a bit there. It's not something I really rely on for self-defense because I don't like the thought of someone getting that close to me. But sometimes I do just like the feel of it in my hand.

I'll get off this thread now because I have no idea what's going on. I suppose the idea of violence breaking out is just scary to me. I do expect people to go berserk here at some point and turn against their neighbors, because they won't have access to the people who are really responsible for our trouble - those people will be in remote places, behind high fences.


Edit: I just got an email from someone and I realized that this situation is more serious than I realized.

[kittypaws]

the UK, USA and I am sure there is more....sad.

what is this world coming to?

kittypaws

[MarkBastable]

The problem with British police and firearms is that, unlike a majority of foreign police forces, they don't have the experience of carrying a sidearm as a matter of course. It has always amazed me that these officers are required to put their lives on the line without sufficient protection. Personally, I like to see police wearing guns when ever I am abroad, it shows that they mean business to any potential criminal. I am not a believer in community policing where police officers help old ladies across the road while blue murder is being committed elsewhere.


Coming from a family of coppers, one of whom was in charge of firearms for his entire force, I can tell you that most British policemen do not want to be armed - because they know where that escalation leads. I know of several policemen who would resign from the job rather than carry a gun in the normal course of duty.

[MarkBastable]

I hope I didn't get the thread off track.

The police themselves... you know they can drive as fast and recklessly as they want. When an off-duty policeman is pulled over, (if he doesn't happen to know that particular policeman, which is unusual in itself) and he's told, "Let me see your driver's licence," what he does is he opens his wallet and takes out his licence and hands it over with his badge on top, and he's free to go.

This, incidentally, is crap. At least it is in the UK, and I suspect it's not universally true in the US either. However - I'm prepared to change my mind if you can produce solid supporting evidence, Vonny.

[Lokasenna]

I think there's a serious point here. With all respect to you and yours, Mark, there are a lot of people here in the UK who are unsatisfied with the police. Given our family business, we were often on the recieving end of crime - shoplifting, armed robbery and burglary being the main ones.

And I have to say it: the police were consistently slow, uninterested and unhelpful. The main headquarters for the North Wales Police Force was a five minute walk from our shop, but it could take them up to an hour to respond to a call for help. I remember one instance where we caught a shoplifter red-handed and who turned violent. It resulted in me, my father, and one of our employees having to physically pin the man to the floor - it took the police forty minutes to get there, which meant that the three of us were having to wrestle this guy for that long.

We did not, fortunately, have many armed robberies, but the police would take a good long time to respond to the silent alarm. My father asked a policeman why this was, and the response given was that it was too dangerous for the policemen involved to interfere in an armed robbery. But if they're not going to anything, what's the bloody point?

I have a myriad other instances - honestly, we could write a book. I won't bore you, but the point remains that I know loads of other people who have experienced the same thing, and who feel the same way. There are lots of decent, law-abiding people who are suspicious of the police.

[MarkBastable]

I'm not saying that the police are necessarily efficient as an institution, or that all police officers are good at their job. Indeed, not all senior police officers would say either of those things.

I am saying that the discussion isn't furthered by ill-informed gossip about offduty police being immune from traffic laws.





I think there's a serious point here. With all respect to you and yours, Mark, there are a lot of people here in the UK who are unsatisfied with the police. Given our family business, we were often on the recieving end of crime - shoplifting, armed robbery and burglary being the main ones.

And I have to say it: the police were consistently slow, uninterested and unhelpful. The main headquarters for the North Wales Police Force was a five minute walk from our shop, but it could take them up to an hour to respond to a call for help. I remember one instance where we caught a shoplifter red-handed and who turned violent. It resulted in me, my father, and one of our employees having to physically pin the man to the floor - it took the police forty minutes to get there, which meant that the three of us were having to wrestle this guy for that long.

We did not, fortunately, have many armed robberies, but the police would take a good long time to respond to the silent alarm. My father asked a policeman why this was, and the response given was that it was too dangerous for the policemen involved to interfere in an armed robbery. But if they're not going to anything, what's the bloody point?

I have a myriad other instances - honestly, we could write a book. I won't bore you, but the point remains that I know loads of other people who have experienced the same thing, and who feel the same way. There are lots of decent, law-abiding people who are suspicious of the police.

[TheFifthElement]

I know no one is going to agree with me, but I really don't think that the rioting would have been stopped if every beat copper was carrying a Sig Sauer.

We need to focus on what created this whole debacle & not whether it is Glock-time for the rozzers or not.

I agree with you. Police with guns would only have escalated the violence, rather than quelled it.

In terms of what caused it, I think the problem is that it's such a complex question and as more information about the rioters emerges it's going to become more complex. There's been a tendancy to lay this whole thing at the door of inequality, the rioters have been painted as low-life chavs on benefits out to get what they can get, but as you find out more about the rioters it becomes a little woolier than that. You've got office workers, teaching assistants, university students and it's rumoured that a fire fighter was involved and a millionaire's daughter although I'm not sure if those have been verified.

From my understanding, the whole thing was sparked off by the shooting of Mark Duggan in Tottenham in suspicious circumstances, but I don't think the riots themselves were directly as a result of this. I think that just might have been a convenient trigger. From what I've heard, there's a general feeling against the police particularly in the black community in the Tottenham area, and in particular frustration with the IPCC who seem to do little to address complaints of police harrassment and/or brutality. In general the IPCC has been criticized for not addressing issues such as deaths in police custody - see here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-custody-officers-convicted

It seems there have been a high number of complaints about high levels of stop and search, particularly aimed towards the black community, which are simply not addressed. So if this man was shot and people's feelings were running high against the police it might just have been the excuse people needed to kick off with their frustrations. It's totally the wrong way to do it, but I guess if you've followed the official channels and got nowhere at some point you either give up or get really angry and try the unofficial channels. But whilst this may account for the initial flare up, I think the rest is simply opportunism. People have seen that looters in London have been able to get away with what I've heard termed 'aggressive shopping' (!) and decided to give it a go themselves. For example, the 12 year old who was convicted in Manchester of stealing a bottle of wine was simply in the area, saw a Sainsburys had been broken into and helped himself to a bottle. It's utterly stupid and thoughtless, but not exactly what you would term 'rioting'. A step up from picking up cash you find lying on the ground, which is also theft but probably the majority would pocket it. I think you'll find there's a core of hardened criminals who have seen this as an opportunity and then there are a load of bystanders who jumped on the bandwagon. I think we'll never really understand it, and any conclusions that are drawn will maybe apply to a few of the rioters but there's not going to be a 'one size fits all' solution to this. As there never is.

The problem with that, of course, is how do you counter it? I think we are in the hands of the 'mob' mentality at the moment, and I think you see it both sides - both in terms of the rioters and the reaction to the rioters. Some of the comments I've seen on FB have been incredibly disturbing. And the politicians as usual roll out their soundbites and cliches and somehow this is all going to work itself out.

Britain does have a problem at its core. People seem to be driven to get as much as they can by giving as little as they can. Hence crimes like copyright theft and insurance fraud are rife and considered almost acceptable because 'everybody does it' and the only 'victim' is a faceless corporation which, lets face it, is only out to screw us all anyway (which isn't the case, obviously. It's the other customers who are the victims, and the employees). I think that as long as we tolerate these crimes in the general population, actually the rioting isn't that far off. And the police are perceived as ineffective - they need to be better at catching people who have committed crimes and the CPS and judicial system need to apply proper sentencing. It'd be great to see some creative sentencing beyond simply giving out prison time- so perhaps the rioters should be both paying for the damage they've caused and helping to fix it in addition to serving any prison time doled out.

No easy answers though. I think we need to see a more effective legal system in this country, that both involves catching criminals (including those 'petty' and common crimes) and convicting them. And it's not just the riots at issue - loads of crimes are inadequately addressed by the police. For example, my neighbour was assaulted by her husband and the police did nothing. He stole her computer and hacked her e-mails and the police didn't even know it was a crime! He stole her passport and even though she can tell the police exactly where it is, because her son has seen it at his Auntie's house, they did nothing because he said he 'didn't have it'. And that's just one person's experience. Roll that out across the country and as long as enough people see that lawlessness goes undiscovered and unaddressed it will be rife.

[kiki1982]

My hubby made an interesting observation yesterday: why are there no riots in Wales or Scotland, not even Northern-Ireland (well done, people!)?

He said he thought it was a mix of a lot of things, to do with future.

Here are university students who will start life 20,000 pounds in debt, having to pay - unlike my husband who is still not paying because he doesn't earn enough. and before anyone blames him, it was only 1,000 pounds -, thus running up an astronomic credit card bill, looking forwards never having their own house because it's just too expensive, maybe not even getting a job because in most cases employers want people with experience first. Having to go for work experience jobs to get experience, which are really exploitation in disguise, and they require happening to live in the right place or having immensely rich parents who can subsidise your whim. It is not for normal people.

People without degrees are even worse off. The jobs there are for them, are being filled by immigrants (nothing against them, they work better) because no doubt they cost less and work more. But what do people with only GCSEs or A-levels have to do?

Most young people, and older people, get stuck in no-merit low paid jobs you do when you're young, but you get frustrated with when you're older. The greatest amount of British middle-class households is sinking in a pit of credit to be able to pay for their hugely over-priced house they can't sell because they bought it in a property bubble.

And then there is celebrity culture most young people aspire to, because, obviously, that's the only way to get rich quickly. Honest work brings you nowhere these days.

My husband said that it was odd that the parts where education is subsidised, there were no riots (as yet). Would that be a coincidence?

And of course coloured people being frustrated by the stop-and-search thing. How Labour could ever have introduced that, I'll never understand.

[Red-Headed]

My hubby made an interesting observation yesterday: why are there no riots in Wales or Scotland, not even Northern-Ireland (well done, people!)?

They do have significantly smaller populations. I lived in Wales for quite a few years. Cardiff & Swansea have their own problems, but it is not on the same scale.


He said he thought it was a mix of a lot of things, to do with future.

I keep hearing about 'multiple' causes, but I think that this is fogging the issue somewhat.


Here are university students who will start life 20,000 pounds in debt, having to pay - unlike my husband who is still not paying because he doesn't earn enough. and before anyone blames him, it was only 1,000 pounds -, thus running up an astronomic credit card bill, looking forwards never having their own house because it's just too expensive, maybe not even getting a job because in most cases employers want people with experience first. Having to go for work experience jobs to get experience, which are really exploitation in disguise, and they require happening to live in the right place or having immensely rich parents who can subsidise your whim. It is not for normal people.

The cuts in education started properly in the Thatcher era. She was mesmerised by utilitarian principles & Milton Friedman type laissez-faire economic models & believed that ultimately Keynesian economics had produced the depression of the 1970s. Her answer was to slash taxation, particularly for the middle classes & deregulate nationalised industries which, in the main, were supported by this taxation. Inevitably, education & health suffered a chronic lack of funding as well. Over the following decades successive governments of either persuasion have never reversed this policy. This is one of the predominant sources of the economic divide that has gradually been growing in the UK.



Most young people, and older people, get stuck in no-merit low paid jobs you do when you're young, but you get frustrated with when you're older. The greatest amount of British middle-class households is sinking in a pit of credit to be able to pay for their hugely over-priced house they can't sell because they bought it in a property bubble.

Yes, the Thatcherite 'Anglican Dream' has turned into a nightmare for many.



And then there is celebrity culture most young people aspire to, because, obviously, that's the only way to get rich quickly.

The so-called Celebrity culture does not exist, it is an invention of the media.


Honest work brings you nowhere these days.

Especially when you see that there is no such thing as an honest politician or banker.



My husband said that it was odd that the parts where education is subsidised, there were no riots (as yet). Would that be a coincidence?

My guess, yes.



And of course coloured people being frustrated by the stop-and-search thing. How Labour could ever have introduced that, I'll never understand.

Yeah, it's terrible that criminals are regularly stopped & searched. I think that there is a lot of whinging & redundant moaning by certain ethnic groups. Duggan was targeted by an anti-gang taskforce (Trident). The racial element to all of this is not clear. The men murdered in Birmingham by being run-over by a car may have been the victim of a racially motivated attack. There is conflict between some members of the Afro-Caribbean community & the Asian community. It shows how frightened some members of the Sikh & Muslim community have become when even they settle their differences & work together.

Personally, I think that it is a piss-poor argument to blame police search & stop tactics for any of this.

[Delta40]

We live by example. When we arm one part of the community to the hilt with firearms, we can expect others to feel they have the same right and procure a weapon themselves. US citizens have more guns the its Police Force and I know this may be in part to history and perceptions of freedom but what country hasn't spilled blood along the way? I wouldn't buy a baseball bat because the likelihood of it being used against me is 40% (can't remember the source but it was an article about the negativity of weaponry)

[prendrelemick]

Just read Peter Oborne's piece on the riots. He points out that the moral decline in our society is as bad at the top as it is at the bottom. He then details examples of MP's who fraudulently claim for laptops and widescreen TVs on expences (Looting?)

Then a billionaire who made his money using Britains infrastructure and educational system and stable society, but then moves his money offshore so he doesn't have to pay for any of it, drawing a comparison to those dissaffected youth who also feel they have no responsibility to this society that keeps them.

Oborne is a dyed in the wool Tory, but I think he makes a good point here.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Coming from a family of coppers, one of whom was in charge of firearms for his entire force, I can tell you that most British policemen do not want to be armed - because they know where that escalation leads. I know of several policemen who would resign from the job rather than carry a gun in the normal course of duty.
It almost sounds like British police just want to avoid accountability.

[MarkBastable]

It almost sounds like British police just want to avoid accountability.

That whooshing sound you just heard was the point going right over your head.

[Red-Headed]

I agree with you. Police with guns would only have escalated the violence, rather than quelled it.

Either way, apart from baton rounds, I am not sure of the efficacy of a small calibre side arm against a mob mentality.


In terms of what caused it, I think the problem is that it's such a complex question and as more information about the rioters emerges it's going to become more complex. There's been a tendancy to lay this whole thing at the door of inequality, the rioters have been painted as low-life chavs on benefits out to get what they can get, but as you find out more about the rioters it becomes a little woolier than that. You've got office workers, teaching assistants, university students and it's rumoured that a fire fighter was involved and a millionaire's daughter although I'm not sure if those have been verified.

From my understanding, the whole thing was sparked off by the shooting of Mark Duggan in Tottenham in suspicious circumstances, but I don't think the riots themselves were directly as a result of this. I think that just might have been a convenient trigger. From what I've heard, there's a general feeling against the police particularly in the black community in the Tottenham area, and in particular frustration with the IPCC who seem to do little to address complaints of police harrassment and/or brutality. In general the IPCC has been criticized for not addressing issues such as deaths in police custody - see here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-custody-officers-convicted

It seems there have been a high number of complaints about high levels of stop and search, particularly aimed towards the black community, which are simply not addressed. So if this man was shot and people's feelings were running high against the police it might just have been the excuse people needed to kick off with their frustrations. It's totally the wrong way to do it, but I guess if you've followed the official channels and got nowhere at some point you either give up or get really angry and try the unofficial channels. But whilst this may account for the initial flare up, I think the rest is simply opportunism. People have seen that looters in London have been able to get away with what I've heard termed 'aggressive shopping' (!) and decided to give it a go themselves. For example, the 12 year old who was convicted in Manchester of stealing a bottle of wine was simply in the area, saw a Sainsburys had been broken into and helped himself to a bottle. It's utterly stupid and thoughtless, but not exactly what you would term 'rioting'. A step up from picking up cash you find lying on the ground, which is also theft but probably the majority would pocket it. I think you'll find there's a core of hardened criminals who have seen this as an opportunity and then there are a load of bystanders who jumped on the bandwagon. I think we'll never really understand it, and any conclusions that are drawn will maybe apply to a few of the rioters but there's not going to be a 'one size fits all' solution to this. As there never is.

The problem with that, of course, is how do you counter it? I think we are in the hands of the 'mob' mentality at the moment, and I think you see it both sides - both in terms of the rioters and the reaction to the rioters. Some of the comments I've seen on FB have been incredibly disturbing. And the politicians as usual roll out their soundbites and cliches and somehow this is all going to work itself out.

Britain does have a problem at its core. People seem to be driven to get as much as they can by giving as little as they can. Hence crimes like copyright theft and insurance fraud are rife and considered almost acceptable because 'everybody does it' and the only 'victim' is a faceless corporation which, lets face it, is only out to screw us all anyway (which isn't the case, obviously. It's the other customers who are the victims, and the employees). I think that as long as we tolerate these crimes in the general population, actually the rioting isn't that far off. And the police are perceived as ineffective - they need to be better at catching people who have committed crimes and the CPS and judicial system need to apply proper sentencing. It'd be great to see some creative sentencing beyond simply giving out prison time- so perhaps the rioters should be both paying for the damage they've caused and helping to fix it in addition to serving any prison time doled out.

No easy answers though. I think we need to see a more effective legal system in this country, that both involves catching criminals (including those 'petty' and common crimes) and convicting them. And it's not just the riots at issue - loads of crimes are inadequately addressed by the police. For example, my neighbour was assaulted by her husband and the police did nothing. He stole her computer and hacked her e-mails and the police didn't even know it was a crime! He stole her passport and even though she can tell the police exactly where it is, because her son has seen it at his Auntie's house, they did nothing because he said he 'didn't have it'. And that's just one person's experience. Roll that out across the country and as long as enough people see that lawlessness goes undiscovered and unaddressed it will be rife.

This is a well realised analysis of the situation. Unfortunately, I am no wiser as to why the riots spread to the Midlands & the North. I should imagine you have identified some of the important points. It makes me wonder about how people are perceiving governments. Considering the turnout was so bad last time we ended up with a coalition. Indifferent or non-existent turnout was often viewed as apathy by politicians, but I wonder how much of it was down to disdain or disgust?

Personally, I think that this country lost a part of its soul in the 1980s.

[kiki1982]

They do have significantly smaller populations. I lived in Wales for quite a few years. Cardiff & Swansea have their own problems, but it is not on the same scale.
And there are no underclasses in Glasgow? I guess there are enough of those around to start this thing and then get other honest working people into it too.


The so-called Celebrity culture does not exist, it is an invention of the media.

I know that, but the effects of it are there. How many percent of young people wishes to be 'a celebrity of some kind' these days?


Yeah, it's terrible that criminals are regularly stopped & searched. I think that there is a lot of whinging & redundant moaning by certain ethnic groups. Duggan was targeted by an anti-gang taskforce (Trident). The racial element to all of this is not clear. The men murdered in Birmingham by being run-over by a car may have been the victim of a racially motivated attack. There is conflict between some members of the Afro-Caribbean community & the Asian community. It shows how frightened some members of the Sikh & Muslim community have become when even they settle their differences & work together.

Uhm, I believe I heard on the BBC 2 about two years ago that most stop-and-searches are directed at Blacks or otherwise coloured people and in the greatest majority of cases result in nothing but hassle. Most of those people are not even criminals.
The men run over in Birmingham were not attacked because of racism, they were just attacked, in the words of a looter, 'because they're rich, because they've got businesses and we wanna show the rich people.' That's all there is to it.


Personally, I think that it is a piss-poor argument to blame police search & stop tactics for any of this.

I was not blaming stop-and-search policing for any of this. I said that it is a frustrating and aggravating factor. How woud you like to be stopped and searched twenty times in a week because you happen to be black? And that is a fact.

Of course there are gangs, that they deal with those gangs. They know where they are, then do something. Stopping and searching will not help reducing gang culture, keeping them busy will and will also reduce alcohol and drug intake which is devastating as it is.

If you talk about laissez-faire then why was the police watching and not doing? They could have employed anti-riot tactics. They did not even need to use bullets or anything. As it is they just stood there while Debenam's was being looted. If I am right, police, according to common law, could be blamed for burning down a car because they let it happen. People have been convicted for murder that way. If it was your business or car being burned down or looted, would you find that acceptible?

Why should it take a bunch of Sikhs and Muslims to defend their own businesses? Are we moving to the Wild West?

Why did it take Cameron to say, 'You know what, we will consider using the water canon'? 'We rely on consent,' the chief of the Met (ad interim) said. What??? You mean you are going to ask them kindly to stop?

[Delta40]

Someone sent me a txt today which said:

Dear England, now who's full of convicts? Sincerely, Australia.

Pretty bad taste when it's about the behaviour of humankind.

[Paulclem]

Someone sent me a txt today which said:

Dear England, now who's full of convicts? Sincerely, Australia.

Pretty bad taste when it's about the behaviour of humankind.

:biggrin5:

Humankind? Shouldn't that be chavkind?

[Delta40]

humans, however you look at them are human. Calling them chavkinds absolves us from the dire mess the society is in and makes it easier to point fingers at everyone but ourselves.

[zoolane]

I feel ashamed to be british.

[stlukesguild]

I feel ashamed to be british.

As well you should.:rolleyes5:

Seriously, I think TheFifthElement struck upon something here, before Emil/Brian jumped all over her/him:

Really, the only real deterrent to crime is the risk of being caught. The higher the risk of being caught, the less likely a person will commit a crime (excepting crimes of 'passion' of course, which don't have the same kind of level of forethought)... An unexpected event in London sparked a riot which showed the rest of the country that they could loot and the police wouldn't really do much about it. And a load of people joined in because, heck, the probability of actually being caught and paying the penalty for it seemed extremely low. But they're the excuses you hear about speeding, and copyright theft, and insurance fraud and all those sorts of 'minor' crimes all the time. There's a thin line between the ordinary man and the 'criminal'.

As much as I admire Rousseau and William Blake, I think they were completely wrong in idealizing "Nature" over "Civilization". Rousseau's famous line, "Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains." as well as his thoughts on education put forth in Emile argue for the belief that man is essentially born "good" but culture and civilization turn him into the being of greed and violence and indifference. Tennyson was far more accurate with his lines:

Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed

I suspect much as we would like to deny it, that the dark side of mankind lurks far nearer the surface than most of us would be comfortable in admitting. Baudelaire knew it when he declared:

...If rape, arson, poison, and the knife
have not yet stitched their ludicrous designs
onto the banal buckram of our fates
it is because our souls lack enterprise...

Fear of the consequences is all that prevents many from violence, rape, theft, and riot. All that is needed is a disturbance in the mechanism of control... a chink in that "thin blue line"... and all anarchy is loosened. We see this at its most extreme in times of war when men will do things they never would have thought to do under normal circumstances. But we also see it in instances such as the current riots in the UK... or closer to home (in my instance) in the violence, rape, looting, and pillage that was unleashed in New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

While I tend to lean toward the left when it comes to questions of access to quality public education, affordable housing, and healthcare, I have absolutely no use for liberal apologetics that frequently follow such events as this which attempt to place the blame upon society... institutionalized poverty, poor education, racism, etc... These are all valid issues that need to be continually confronted and dealt with... but they are no excuse for the behavior of individuals... and they certainly are not the cause.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

That whooshing sound you just heard was the point going right over your head.
I thought I heard something.


While I tend to lean toward the left when it comes to questions of access to quality public education, affordable housing, and healthcare, I have absolutely no use for liberal apologetics that frequently follow such events as this which attempt to place the blame upon society... institutionalized poverty, poor education, racism, etc... These are all valid issues that need to be continually confronted and dealt with... but they are no excuse for the behavior of individuals... and they certainly are not the cause.
I'm not sure that can be said and always be true. With the London riots, definitely, but sometimes I think rioting can often be blamed on societal issues. The early union riots, civil rights (peaceful demonstrations, yes, but often became violent because of the police, no less), the Vietnam War riots, the numerous riots in nations with oppressive governments. I think they all can be pretty conclusively blamed on their respective societal issues. Even the UK riots ... something is going on in the UK to cause such civil unrest; people don't just start rioting for no reason (or, at least, they don't start that way--once mob mentality takes ahold, it's a different story).

[zoolane]

I feel ashamed to be british.

But in own defense none of children or myself or partner did not take part.

[Emil Miller]

Coming from a family of coppers, one of whom was in charge of firearms for his entire force, I can tell you that most British policemen do not want to be armed - because they know where that escalation leads. I know of several policemen who would resign from the job rather than carry a gun in the normal course of duty.

Unfortunately it is true that a majority of police officers in British constabularies don't want to be armed. I have just been reading an interesting web site conversation on this subject between officers from various forces around the world. This is one from a German officer in Bavaria: "As far as I know there have been 11 police officers killed in England, but just 5 in Germany (which has more population, but routinely armed cops.) I will not go on patrol without my gun."

Of course, it's a matter of personal predilection but I'm with the German.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

There's only been 11 policemen killed in Germany and 5 in England? Wow. In how long of a time span?

[Emil Miller]

There's only been 11 policemen killed in Germany and 5 in England? Wow. In how long of a time span?

Well he's probably speaking from memory but I should imagine he is referring to the period since German reunification in 1990. I have just been checking on the number of British officers killed in the line of duty since since 1900 and it totals 244 from a variety of causes. This omits those killed in traffic accidents and refers only to those who were killed by a criminal act.

In the period since 1990, 23 officers were killed, including 8 by shooting and 8 by stabbing.

These are statistics, so you can interpret them as you will, but having experienced the performance of both German and English police forces, I'm on the side of the Germans.

You have transposed the figures given originally, it should be 5 for Germany and 11 for England.

[Delta40]

I feel ashamed to be british.

Don't be. The LA Riots and Katrina showed us that humans in the Western world are capable of deteriorating into shameful mob behaviour. Take gang rape for example. Inaction by others can even escalate further harm. The Kitty Genovese murder woke us all to the bystander effect. Milgram's experiments showed us how most of us could be behave like Nazis when put under pressure to follow orders.
Given the right circumstance/excuse, opportunity and social tension, anything is possible in the world Zoo. We must remind ourselves that none of us is above another person.

[Paulclem]

At the moment the media is on about the shocking cases of 12 and 13 year olds being caught in the riots. It's not shocking if you think about it. 12 and 13 year olds are simply easily led. They are children and much less able to resist the mob. In those cases - it is the responsibility of the parents pure and simple, and anyone who has been involved with 12 and 13 year olds knows that they can be very irrational and vindictive.

it's more shocking that those with status should be involved. they should know better. I don't feel ashamed, and neither should anyone else who was not involved. Apart from the daft kids - they made their choices. We would have made different ones.

[Delta40]

At the moment the media is on about the shocking cases of 12 and 13 year olds being caught in the riots. It's not shocking if you think about it. 12 and 13 year olds are simply easily led. They are children and much less able to resist the mob. In those cases - it is the responsibility of the parents pure and simple, and anyone who has been involved with 12 and 13 year olds knows that they can be very irrational and vindictive.

it's more shocking that those with status should be involved. they should know better. I don't feel ashamed, and neither should anyone else who was not involved. Apart from the daft kids - they made their choices. We would have made different ones.

I'm sure some of those kids were WITH their parents at the time, following their example.

I agree that young children are more easily led for developmental reasons but the distance between adults of all classes is not far at all. Overt rioting and looting appears more shocking only because it's a visible drama but lets face it, high end corruption is by far more predominate. It is fair to say that responsive skills and decision making among humankind can be vast but that, as far as I'm concerned says more about society as a whole rather than the individual. We really do live by 'out of sight out of mind'

[LitNetIsGreat]

Don't be. The LA Riots and Katrina showed us that humans in the Western world are capable of deteriorating into shameful mob behaviour. Take gang rape for example. Inaction by others can even escalate further harm. The Kitty Genovese murder woke us all to the bystander effect. Milgram's experiments showed us how most of us could be behave like Nazis when put under pressure to follow orders.
Given the right circumstance/excuse, opportunity and social tension, anything is possible in the world Zoo. We must remind ourselves that none of us is above another person.

Yep. The human being can descend quite easily, though I think many of these were already at, or near to, that level to begin with given half a chance.


At the moment the media is on about the shocking cases of 12 and 13 year olds being caught in the riots. It's not shocking if you think about it. 12 and 13 year olds are simply easily led. They are children and much less able to resist the mob. In those cases - it is the responsibility of the parents pure and simple, and anyone who has been involved with 12 and 13 year olds knows that they can be very irrational and vindictive.

it's more shocking that those with status should be involved. they should know better. I don't feel ashamed, and neither should anyone else who was not involved. Apart from the daft kids - they made their choices. We would have made different ones.

That's true as well. Plus many of these horrible kids are in families where poor behaviour is simply the norm. It goes back to the parents, a lot of it anyway, simple as that; lack of boundaries from an early age and then in the teens/20s there is often little you can do because the damage as already begun.

[Paulclem]

I'm sure some of those kids were WITH their parents at the time, following their example.

I agree that young children are more easily led for developmental reasons but the distance between adults of all classes is not far at all. Overt rioting and looting appears more shocking only because it's a visible drama but lets face it, high end corruption is by far more predominate. It is fair to say that responsive skills and decision making among humankind can be vast but that, as far as I'm concerned says more about society as a whole rather than the individual. We really do live by 'out of sight out of mind'

I agree with the high end corruption being the hidden shocker. Prendrelmick made the same point earlier. I have no respect for businessmen who make loads and employ people to stash their wealth and avoid taxes etc. It's disgraceful. They act as if they are solely responsible for their own wealth, which is just a big fat lie. No man - or woman is an island - they all rely on countless others to administer, produce, buy, sell etc etc their goods.

I take your point about high profile shock tactics, and, again, I reckon the press has some responsibility in it.

[Paulclem]

I'm sure some of those kids were WITH their parents at the time, following their example.


And where were the parents of the parents with the kids they caught I ask you!:lol:

[Delta40]

That's true as well. Plus many of these horrible kids are in families where poor behaviour is simply the norm. It goes back to the parents, a lot of it anyway, simple as that; lack of boundaries from an early age and then in the teens/20s there is often little you can do because the damage as already begun.

But it doesn't stop at the parents. Bad behaviour and model setting didn't start in the last generation. It is easy to look at little ratbag kids, stick our noses in the air and think what awful parents they must have but it didn't start with them. My point is we are all accustomed now to dump the problematic macro on the shoulders of the micro. Nobody wins.

[LitNetIsGreat]

But it doesn't stop at the parents. Bad behaviour and model setting didn't start in the last generation. It is easy to look at little ratbag kids, stick our noses in the air and think what awful parents they must have but it didn't start with them. My point is we are all accustomed now to dump the problematic macro on the shoulders of the micro. Nobody wins.

Yes there are lots issues tied up with these riots I know. Sorry short of time...

[MystyrMystyry]

:biggrin5:

Humankind? Shouldn't that be chavkind?

Ha

I was interested in the derivation of chav - but uh oh, they've got their own wikipaedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

[LitNetIsGreat]

Chav = aggravated Nesbits.

[Delta40]

Wow! I didn't know Burberry was associated with chaviness! I bought a fake handbag and purse for my daughter in Vietnam! Oh God! What have I done????

[Red-Headed]

And there are no underclasses in Glasgow? I guess there are enough of those around to start this thing and then get other honest working people into it too.

I have only ever been to Glasgow a few times. It has been described as the crime capital of Europe.


I know that, but the effects of it are there. How many percent of young people wishes to be 'a celebrity of some kind' these days?

Who cares?



Uhm, I believe I heard on the BBC 2 about two years ago that most stop-and-searches are directed at Blacks or otherwise coloured people and in the greatest majority of cases result in nothing but hassle. Most of those people are not even criminals.

Oh, well, if it was on BBC 2 it must be true then. :rofl:


The men run over in Birmingham were not attacked because of racism, they were just attacked, in the words of a looter, 'because they're rich, because they've got businesses and we wanna show the rich people.' That's all there is to it.

Are you on drugs? I work in Birmingham & I know the area. I have spoken to people who were there at the time. The victims were not rich & were merely protecting their businesses. There is friction between the Afro-Caribbean community & the Asian community. Much of the racism in Birmingham is between different ethnic groups, particularly Asians & West Indians. You are talking out of your arse.

"Race-related violence had been a genuine concern, said Shabana Mahmood, the member of parliament for Birmingham.

The Winson Green area of Birmingham, where the hit-and-run took place, is an ethnically diverse area with a large Afro-Caribbean and Asian community.

The three men killed were of Asian origin and witnesses have described the men driving the car as Afro-Caribbean, Mahmood said." ~ CNN


I was not blaming stop-and-search policing for any of this. I said that it is a frustrating and aggravating factor. How woud you like to be stopped and searched twenty times in a week because you happen to be black? And that is a fact.

Many work colleagues of mine are black. None of them have ever been stopped & searched. The police stop & search potential villains. That's their job.


Of course there are gangs, that they deal with those gangs. They know where they are, then do something. Stopping and searching will not help reducing gang culture, keeping them busy will and will also reduce alcohol and drug intake which is devastating as it is.

You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about, do you?


If you talk about laissez-faire then why was the police watching and not doing? They could have employed anti-riot tactics. They did not even need to use bullets or anything. As it is they just stood there while Debenam's was being looted. If I am right, police, according to common law, could be blamed for burning down a car because they let it happen. People have been convicted for murder that way. If it was your business or car being burned down or looted, would you find that acceptible?

Apart from the fact that I am beginning to suspect that you are typing words just for the sake of it, I think the police made a mistake by holding back. They were probably ordered to do this. They have been having bad public relations due to kettling. My guess, it was a tactical mistake based on politics. They won't make the mistake again.


Why should it take a bunch of Sikhs and Muslims to defend their own businesses? Are we moving to the Wild West?

I don't know where you are moving to, my guess Alpha Centauri. You really have no idea about what happened in Birmingham do you? I have spoken to eye-witnesses. I walked past a burnt out car in Snow Hill yesterday.


Why did it take Cameron to say, 'You know what, we will consider using the water canon'? 'We rely on consent,' the chief of the Met (ad interim) said. What??? You mean you are going to ask them kindly to stop?

There were no water cannons on the British mainland at the time. The police have questioned the efficacy of them in a riot situation anyway.

[Delta40]

Here is an extract from an Irishman posted on You Tube

yes thats what alot of people are saying here in ireland its doesnt take very long in northerne ireland before the brits take out the rubber ammunition on the irish but wont use them on there own streets f ucking c unts

Do you think the british force should have been more heavy handed?

My earlier point about corruption is well highlighted here:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

[Red-Headed]

Do you think the british force should have been more heavy handed?

Yes. This is to do with politics, not rioting. In Brum, when the police made a stand, the rioters backed off & went elsewhere. Unfortunately, this didn't help Haroon Jahan, Shazad Musavir & Abdul Musavir when they were murdered in an almost certainly racially motivated attack.

I don't know what planet 'kiki1982' is living on, no doubt somewhere outside of the galactic centre, but most of the racial violence in Winson Green, Handsworth & Ladywood is between Afro-Caribbeans & Asians. As a professional educator, I have been trained in safeguarding issues & a large part of this is the understanding of cultural awareness. I have actually witnessed inter-racial violence between students of West Indian descent & Asian. This is a known problem. The racial issues surrounding these riots are far more complex than some people on this thread are suggesting. I am still not convinced that race was a central issue in the start of the riots.

[Delta40]

Yes. This is to do with politics, not rioting. In Brum, when the police made a stand, the rioters backed off & went elsewhere. Unfortunately, this didn't help Haroon Jahan, Shazad Musavir & Abdul Musavir when they were murdered in an almost certainly racially motivated attack.

I don't know what planet 'kiki1982' is living on, no doubt somewhere outside of the galactic centre, but most of the racial violence in Winson Green, Handsworth & Ladywood is between Afro-Caribbeans & Asians. As a professional educator, I have been trained in safeguarding issues & a large part of this is the understanding of cultural awareness. I have actually witnessed inter-racial violence between students of West Indian descent & Asian. This is a known problem. The racial issues surrounding these riots are far more complex than some people on this thread are suggesting. I am still not convinced that race was a central issue in the start of the riots.

From Germany where apparently no social or political atrocities happen....

[Red-Headed]

Someone sent me a txt today which said:

Dear England, now who's full of convicts? Sincerely, Australia.

Pretty bad taste when it's about the behaviour of humankind.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

There are still bridges here with signs on them claiming you can be deported if you vandalise them. That gives me an idea ...

[Red-Headed]

From Germany where apparently no social or political atrocities happen....

Ah, the pot calling the kettle black? (Or should that be 'kettling'? LOL)

[Delta40]

Ah, the pot calling the kettle black? (Or should that be 'kettling'? LOL)

Given the horrific nights people have spent in the UK I am genuinely surprised that the death toll is only 5. I think if you're out on the street looting and rioting then the Police should not be held to account when you get a thrashing from them. After all, the rioters believe they have this same right so I would at least insist on consistency in the community under the guise of what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Privately, I wish the Police had responded more forcefully and they still would have behaved better than the rioters.

[Red-Headed]

Given the horrific nights people have spent in the UK I am genuinely surprised that the death toll is only 5.

It's still five too many.


I think if you're out on the street looting and rioting then the Police should not be held to account when you get a thrashing from them.

Too right. As I said, they started to get their act together more in Birmingham.


After all, the rioters believe they have this same right so I would at least insist on consistency in the community under the guise of what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Privately, I wish the Police had responded more forcefully and they still would have behaved better than the rioters.

Terror, fear, extreme ****-kicking, teargas, rubber bullets & tazers on the bollocks are the best methods to use on rioting looters.

The police have every right to use force in a situation of disorder like we have seen.

[stlukesguild]

Terror, fear, extreme ****-kicking, teargas, rubber bullets & tazers on the bollocks are the best methods to use on rioting looters.

The police have every right to use force in a situation of disorder like we have seen.

Damn! And everybody goes on about us violent Americans.:smash:

[Delta40]

Terror, fear, extreme ****-kicking, teargas, rubber bullets & tazers on the bollocks are the best methods to use on rioting looters.

The police have every right to use force in a situation of disorder like we have seen.

Damn! And everybody goes on about us violent Americans.:smash:

Lol. Well the world will pick on Big Brother! :boxing_smiley:

[Red-Headed]

Lol. Well the world will pick on Big Brother! :boxing_smiley:

I have stlukesguild on ignore. This kind of flag-wavey repulsive trolling is one of the reasons. I find it in bad taste that someone can take some kind of schadenfreude-type pleasure in what has happened in the UK. Particularly in Birmingham, I have spoken to people who have been quite traumatised by all of this. There will be repercussions from this locally for a long time, it has done nothing for racial harmony. I don't find it funny, I wonder if the owner of the burnt out car that I saw in Birmingham yesterday found it as equally funny as stlukesguild? Or the parents of the those murdered in Dudley Road? I certainly don't appreciate being quoted by someone with that mentality.

Troll someone else stlukesguild.

[Red-Headed]

Responding to inquiries from the Guardian, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said in a statement: "It seems possible that we may have verbally led journalists to believe that shots were exchanged".

Duggan, 29, was armed with a loaded handgun when he was shot dead by police after the minicab he was in was stopped during a planned operation to arrest him.

Investigators have established that two shots were fired by one CO19 firearms officer who was supporting Trident officers during the operation. ~ The Guardian

Now, I'm just guessing here, but considering how strict gun laws are in the UK, no one is going to convince me Duggan wasn't a gangster.

[Delta40]

We've been hearing here in Oz that Duggan didn't have a gun and a second enquiry is underway.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

For someone who constantly sticks up for G L Wilson, I find it incredibly ironic that you'd ignore StLukesGuild, Red-Headed, especially since it was an obvious joke. Also, weren't you the one lamenting the slippery slope of ignoring people? :lol: Plus, you criticize someone else for trolling? You just questioned what planet someone was living on. Where was the need in that? So, what is it, R-H, you want to be all jokey and lighthearted at one point, and then deadly serious the next? Hypocrite.

Still, your loss. StLukes makes some of the most intelligent, insightful, and interesting posts on LitNet.

[Red-Headed]

For someone who constantly sticks up for G L Wilson, I find it incredibly ironic that you'd ignore StLukesGuild, Red-Headed, especially since it was an obvious joke. Also, weren't you the one lamenting the slippery slope of ignoring people? :lol: Plus, you criticize someone else for trolling? You just questioned what planet someone was living on. Where was the need in that? So, what is it, R-H, you want to be all jokey and lighthearted at one point, and then deadly serious the next? Hypocrite.

Still, your loss. StLukes makes some of the most intelligent, insightful, and interesting posts on LitNet.

A/ Mind your own business.

B/ You are an obvious joke.

C/ Have you nothing better to do or say about the OT other than troll me about your childish tantrums over G.L. Wilson?

D/ You have finally made my ignore list.


We've been hearing here in Oz that Duggan didn't have a gun and a second enquiry is underway.

I suppose we'll find out the truth eventually. Either way, Duggan was a known criminal.

[stlukesguild]

A/ Mind your own business.

B/ You are an obvious joke.

C/ You have finally made my ignore list.


Mutatis-Mutandi... welcome to the club. Of course you are only a joke, while I'm a repulsive, flag-waving troll (what flag?:iamwithstupid: oops... that's not a flag:sosp:).

[MarkBastable]

A/ Mind your own business.

B/ You are an obvious joke.

C/ Have you nothing better to do or say about the OT other than troll me about your childish tantrums over G.L. Wilson?

D/ You have finally made my ignore list.


Please can I be on your ignore list too?

[prendrelemick]

I have only ever been to Glasgow a few times. It has been described as the crime capital of Europe.



Who cares?




Oh, well, if it was on BBC 2 it must be true then. :rofl:



Are you on drugs? I work in Birmingham & I know the area. I have spoken to people who were there at the time. The victims were not rich & were merely protecting their businesses. There is friction between the Afro-Caribbean community & the Asian community. Much of the racism in Birmingham is between different ethnic groups, particularly Asians & West Indians. You are talking out of your arse.

"Race-related violence had been a genuine concern, said Shabana Mahmood, the member of parliament for Birmingham.

The Winson Green area of Birmingham, where the hit-and-run took place, is an ethnically diverse area with a large Afro-Caribbean and Asian community.

The three men killed were of Asian origin and witnesses have described the men driving the car as Afro-Caribbean, Mahmood said." ~ CNN



Many work colleagues of mine are black. None of them have ever been stopped & searched. The police stop & search potential villains. That's their job.



You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about, do you?



Apart from the fact that I am beginning to suspect that you are typing words just for the sake of it, I think the police made a mistake by holding back. They were probably ordered to do this. They have been having bad public relations due to kettling. My guess, it was a tactical mistake based on politics. They won't make the mistake again.



I don't know where you are moving to, my guess Alpha Centauri. You really have no idea about what happened in Birmingham do you? I have spoken to eye-witnesses. I walked past a burnt out car in Snow Hill yesterday.



There were no water cannons on the British mainland at the time. The police have questioned the efficacy of them in a riot situation anyway.

This post is a disgrace.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Careful, Pen, you'll get on R-H's ignore list!


D/ You have finally made my ignore list.
I shall wear it as a badge of honor! :lol:

R-H is probably bluffing, anyways. She probably doesn't have any of us on her ignore list, just says so so she doesn't have to take accountability for her peevishness when it's pointed out. I did the same thing when I claimed G L was on my ignore list, but shortly dropped the charade. Anyways, it's going to get boring for her when she's eliminated everyone who argues with her.

[Red-Headed]

This post is a disgrace.

No, the disgrace was for kiki1982 to talk so much nonsense about the riots in the first place. It was mostly ill-informed gibberish. I was so amazed that anyone could write it that I responded how I saw fit. It didn't merit anything else.

I am not interested in your opinion anyway, I suggest you mind your own business.


Please can I be on your ignore list too?

You can put me on ignore if you like.

[Scheherazade]

Had predicted that this thread would not remain open more than five days.

Thank you all for not disappointing... Yet once again! :thumbsup: