What does it mean to respect another's religious beliefs?

[BienvenuJDC]

We have been discussing religious beliefs on this forum ever since (and even before) I have been a member here. I have observed that most people here (including myself) get more defensive about their own beliefs that they begin disrespecting each other's beliefs (and even each other). My question that I put forward for us all is:

How do we discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other?

[G L Wilson]

Peace in our times, hey?

[cl154576]

How do we discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other?

I think that is only possible if people stay in the realm of the factual.

For instance, questions like "What does the Bible say about this?" or "What does this section mean?" can be answered (more or less) factually and without offense, so long as people stay to the topic and no one injects arguments as to whether or not the religious text is to be believed.

[Calidore]

"How do we discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other?"

Simple. You discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other. There's no global "how"; everyone's completely in control of the words they type, and everyone makes a choice to be civil or snarky or worse, so any "how" is personal and internal.

My own way was to adopt a nic that describes not what I am, but what I'd like to be. My natural state is sarcastic, misanthropic, and in general impatient with people. However, I long ago realized that 1) this is counterproductive in discussions and 2) this is not the way I want to be or should be anyway, so I use Calidore (the Knight of Courtesy in the book with the least manly title in all of literature, Spenser's Faerie Queene) as my alias in newspaper comment sections and on this forum. As a result, when tempted to respond with pointless negativity to something, I would ask myself, "Would Calidore write that?" and put the brakes on. Now, after years of this, I'm seldom tempted anymore, and when I am, it's much easier to stop. It's just a matter of changing one habit for another.

All of which is more than I intended to type when I started. Was there a Knight of Brevity also? I could use that one as well sometimes.

[G L Wilson]

"What does it mean to respect another's religious beliefs?"

Surrender and defeat.

[Paulclem]

"How do we discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other?"

Simple. You discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other. There's no global "how"; everyone's completely in control of the words they type, and everyone makes a choice to be civil or snarky or worse, so any "how" is personal and internal.

My own way was to adopt a nic that describes not what I am, but what I'd like to be. My natural state is sarcastic, misanthropic, and in general impatient with people. However, I long ago realized that 1) this is counterproductive in discussions and 2) this is not the way I want to be or should be anyway, so I use Calidore (the Knight of Courtesy in the book with the least manly title in all of literature, Spenser's Faerie Queene) as my alias in newspaper comment sections and on this forum. As a result, when tempted to respond with pointless negativity to something, I would ask myself, "Would Calidore write that?" and put the brakes on. Now, after years of this, I'm seldom tempted anymore, and when I am, it's much easier to stop. It's just a matter of changing one habit for another.

All of which is more than I intended to type when I started. Was there a Knight of Brevity also? I could use that one as well sometimes.

That's interesting Calidore. A good way forward. :biggrin5:

[MarkBastable]

Just discuss the ideas - not the people. Ideas can't be harmed, offended or damaged. Ideas, in fact, don't even ask to be respected. It's the people who hold the ideas who warrant respect.

It's entirely possible to challenge an idea aggressively without lacking respect for the person holding it. The problem comes, I think, when either the person doing the challenging has a shot at the person holding the idea rather than at the idea itself; or when the person holding the idea identifies so closely with it that he feels any attack on the idea is an attack on himself.

This is what makes it so difficult to talk about religion - it's an idea that defines people, so an attack on the idea is easily taken for an attack on the person holding it - and, actually, sometimes that's what it is.

[G L Wilson]

Religious people are always quick to claim the high moral ground whenever all hell breaks out because of their bullying and bluster. Respect that, never!

[Varenne Rodin]

"How do we discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other?"

Simple. You discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other. There's no global "how"; everyone's completely in control of the words they type, and everyone makes a choice to be civil or snarky or worse, so any "how" is personal and internal.

My own way was to adopt a nic that describes not what I am, but what I'd like to be. My natural state is sarcastic, misanthropic, and in general impatient with people. However, I long ago realized that 1) this is counterproductive in discussions and 2) this is not the way I want to be or should be anyway, so I use Calidore (the Knight of Courtesy in the book with the least manly title in all of literature, Spenser's Faerie Queene) as my alias in newspaper comment sections and on this forum. As a result, when tempted to respond with pointless negativity to something, I would ask myself, "Would Calidore write that?" and put the brakes on. Now, after years of this, I'm seldom tempted anymore, and when I am, it's much easier to stop. It's just a matter of changing one habit for another.

All of which is more than I intended to type when I started. Was there a Knight of Brevity also? I could use that one as well sometimes.

I now feel like I know a little bit more about the history of Calidore, and I quite enjoy it.

I agree with cl154576 and MarkBastable 100%.

[togre]

I find the above ideas spot on. I'm not sure I can add anything new, but to achieve my necessary word count I'll just add...

1) Someone can be an awesome, smart, nice person and still be completely wrong. I need to remember that when addressing them. If they can be nice and still be no less wrong than they would be were they a troll ( or even, say, an ogre) and wrong, then I have no interest and no need to attack or bash the person. Political discourse fails at this almost always and too often discussions on religion do as well.

2) While I understand what MarkBastable is saying and agree it is an observation often accurate, I find on the personal level to function differently. I find I have a more emotional response to attacks on ideas I hold to be true than I do to attacks on my person. But regardless of what my emotional response is, I need to separate my emotions on a topic from my reasons (unless, of course my reasons are emotional, but that's another topic entirely).

[G L Wilson]

The problem with religious people is, one minute they're rams, the next minute they're lambs.

[Calidore]

I now feel like I know a little bit more about the history of Calidore, and I quite enjoy it.

I agree with cl154576 and MarkBastable 100%.

Ditto. Thanks to you and Paulclem for the kind words also.

Mark especially made a good point that conflict can originate with the listener as often as the speaker.


"What does it mean to respect another's religious beliefs?"

Surrender and defeat.

"Respect," not "adopt." There's no surrender or defeat in respecting another's beliefs, at least provided those beliefs aren't thenselves inherently disrespectful of others. Which, granted, many people's beliefs are, but when you overgeneralize and attack everyone, you're doing exactly what the people you claim to deplore are doing.

{edit}

[Scheherazade]

The OP asks:
How do we discuss religious texts, concepts, and questions without being so cut throat and demeaning toward each other?

Please share your opinions if they are directly related at the topic at hand.

Those posts who contain inflammatory, personal and/or off topic remarks will be removed without further warning.

[G L Wilson]

God has spoken, and we must listen?!

[BienvenuJDC]

God has spoken, and we must listen?!

Please address the topic of this thread, instead of mere randomness.

[G L Wilson]

Please address the topic of this thread, instead of mere randomness.

Not to listen to a person when they are speaking to you is the height of bad manners.

[Drkshadow03]

Anyway, getting back onto the actual topic, I think part of the problem is in many cases everyone thinks they're having a different discussion then the one they're actually having. And often people bring in their personal baggage that complicates matters.

[G L Wilson]

Anyway, getting back onto the actual topic, I think part of the problem is in many cases everyone thinks they're having a different discussion then the one they're actually having.

Yeah, back to the actual topic...like I was saying, no-one listens to no-one.

[Drkshadow03]

Yeah, back to the actual topic...like I was saying, no-one listens no-one.

What did you wish to say? I assumed your "G-d has spoken" comment referred to the moderator's intrusion into the thread. Did you mean something else by it?

[G L Wilson]

What did you wish to say? I assumed your "G-d has spoken" comment referred to the moderator's intrusion into the thread. Did you mean something else by it?

I did.

[Drkshadow03]

I did.

Can you elaborate on what you meant?

[cl154576]

Can you elaborate on what you meant?

Something like this (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1062508&postcount=116)?

[G L Wilson]

I said, "God has spoken, and we must listen?!" Should we listen to a raving loon? I have tried comedy and that just gets me infractions. I change tack and that gets me an infraction. Obviously, there is a lot of people on this forum who simply tolerate me because they think that I am a nut.

The Bible is God's Word. Should we listen to what it inspires or ignore what it inspires?

[G L Wilson]

Everyone has their own agenda, and boy do they like to push it. I know that I do.

[Arrowni]

To respect someone beliefs you have to believe they are believable. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in belief, you'll not achieve real respect.

[Varenne Rodin]

To respect someone beliefs you have to believe they are believable. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in belief, you'll not achieve real respect.

I agree with this completely. While I respect human beings, I cannot find any respect for beliefs which are preposterous to me. For example, people differ on which books they like. One person may love crime serial dollar novels, another person may read the same books and find them laughable, cheap, and under-researched. Should the person who so loves the crime serials be offended when the other reader rejects and dismisses them? Respect of a person's feelings should not automatically gain respect for belief sets of which one finds distasteful.

I love the Kill Bill movies. I have a friend who can't stand them, but is still very fond of my company. Though we have gone round and round about it, I still like him just fine. When it comes to religion, the problem is that it effects a person's way of life and, by extension, the lives of those around them. I like Kill Bill. If I went around like a perverted samurai, severing heads and limbs to the tunes of Asian girl band performed surf rock music, I would expect someone to have a problem with my behavior.

...Then I would make them pay for their insolence (just kidding!).

[Hawkman]

Funny, When it comes to Kill Bill I have no problem with the combat violence but the element of sexual sadism prevelent when Beartrice is in the coma in hospital is deeply unpleasant. I rather think it reflects QT's personality. He certainly lacks taste. The whole thing is a bit cartoony, reflecting its manga influences and origins in a graphic novel. QT - definately a child of the 70's.

There is a difference between respecting beliefs and just being civil. If you feel repelled or appauled by someone's attitudes then perhaps it's just better not to engage with them. If you choose to do so then you should just show good manners and refrain from responding to provocation. If someone is incapable of making an argument for their position, what's the point in engaging in a slanging match?

Alternatively, providing you have the right contacts and a sufficient budget, you could just have them killed, or better still, do as Varenne suggests and take care of things yourself! (I'm kidding too) (Honest!!!) (But only about the last paragraph...)

[Varenne Rodin]

Funny, When it comes to Kill Bill I have no problem with the combat violence but the element of sexual sadism prevelent when Beartrice is in the coma in hospital is deeply unpleasant. I rather think it reflects QT's personality. He certainly lacks taste. The whole thing is a bit cartoony, reflecting its manga influences and origins in a graphic novel. QT - definately a child of the 70's.

There is a difference between respecting beliefs and just being civil. If you feel repelled or appauled by someone's attitudes then perhaps it's just better not to engage with them. If you choose to do so then you should just show good manners and refrain from responding to provocation. If someone is incapable of making an argument for their position, what's the point in engaging in a slanging match?

Alternatively, providing you have the right contacts and a sufficient budget, you could just have them killed, or better still, do as Varenne suggests and take care of things yourself! (I'm kidding too) (Honest!!!) (But only about the last paragraph...)

I agree. I have definitely given too much energy to these arguments in the recent past, I must admit. Being serious really doesn't suit me, so I'm going back to silly mode. It's something that everyone can enjoy!

I think QT is sick in the head, and wealthy enough to overindulge the id. Generally I think his collaborations with Rodriguez are the most fun. Jackie Brown is a decent flick. Deathproof wasn't tolerable for me. Girls talking in cars for two hours = boring! I'm about to get in some kind of trouble for derailing this thread, so here I go shutting up. :D

[YesNo]

To respect someone beliefs you have to believe they are believable. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in belief, you'll not achieve real respect.
Actually, I don't understand your comment, Arrowni, at all, and suspect I would disagree with it--if it only made sense to me. We are all crammed with beliefs that are unbelievable, including the self-defined atheists. Personally, I don't believe in unbelief including atheistic belief in unbelief. (Hmm. Does that even make sense? :) )

My goal is not to get angry with a person expressing beliefs that I refuse to accept for myself. That alone should lead to civil discussion. That doesn't mean I will practice some wimpy behavior keeping the anger hidden within myself. It does not mean I won't offer an opposing viewpoint. What it means is I will refuse to get angry, even silently within my own mind. I'm not sure I've achieved this state, but reading forum posts is good practice.

Both Hawkman and Varenne Rodin mentioned Kill Bill. Take any of these action heroes from any movie. In general, the good guys don't lose their cool. They don't get angry even when they are kicking their opponents into submission. The bad guys, on the other hand, lose it completely.

[Varenne Rodin]

Actually, I don't understand your comment, Arrowni, at all, and suspect I would disagree with it--if it only made sense to me. We are all crammed with beliefs that are unbelievable, including the self-defined atheists. Personally, I don't believe in unbelief including atheistic belief in unbelief. (Hmm. Does that even make sense? :) )

My goal is not to get angry with a person expressing beliefs that I refuse to accept for myself. That alone should lead to civil discussion. That doesn't mean I will practice some wimpy behavior keeping the anger hidden within myself. It does not mean I won't offer an opposing viewpoint. What it means is I will refuse to get angry, even silently within my own mind. I'm not sure I've achieved this state, but reading forum posts is good practice.

Both Hawkman and Varenne Rodin mentioned Kill Bill. Take any of these action heroes from any movie. In general, the good guys don't lose their cool. They don't get angry even when they are kicking their opponents into submission. The bad guys, on the other hand, lose it completely.

I am silly to point this out, but you must not have seen Kill Bill. The good guy is angry for pretty much the entirety of the movies. The bad guy is extremely cool and composed. I see what you're saying, but I don't think it applies to what we were saying. There was no mention of holding in some secret anger. It's almost the opposite. It's the letting go of feeling effected by someone who is set in their ways. That's as nicely and clearly as I can put it. :)

[billl]

In general, the good guys don't lose their cool. They don't get angry even when they are kicking their opponents into submission.

"losing one's cool" and "getting angry" aren't necessarily the same thing. Maybe it would just be a semantic difference for some people. Anyhow, I can see "being angry" as being different from "losing one's cool" pretty clearly.

In Kill Bill, the protagonist has a huge store of anger within her, and it gives her strength. She doesn't flail around and act with uncontrollable lizard-brain rage at the sight of her enemies, however.

Many athletes are powered by such emotion, as well--Michael Jordan often got angry at opponents, and to see Asashoryu wrestle in his prime, just the look on his face (the complete disdain for his opponent) was enough to assure all who were watching that he would win.

[Varenne Rodin]

In Kill Bill, the protagonist has a huge store of anger within her, and it gives her strength. She doesn't flail around and act with uncontrollable lizard-brain rage at the sight of her enemies, however.

I am cracking up at this mental picture!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

In Kill Bill, the protagonist has a huge store of anger within her, and it gives her strength. She doesn't flail around and act with uncontrollable lizard-brain rage at the sight of her enemies, however.
No, she chops them up in a very calm manner.

[Paulclem]

To respect someone beliefs you have to believe they are believable. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in belief, you'll not achieve real respect.

I have to disagree. It seems to me that this is the road to intolerance. A Muslim or Christian's religion is based upon the belief in God/ Trinity/father Son etc, whereas in Buddhism there is no creator God, and Hinduism has a multitude of Gods. There's a lot of grounds for contention between them.If it was the case that there wasn't - on the whole - mutual respect, there woud be many more problems.

In fact the religions of the Book - Christianity, Islam and Judaism have experienced many more problems in the modern era, and their belief in God is very similar, if not related.

[cl154576]

I don't find anything believable in religion. I don't know how people believe in it at all. But I get the fact that they do, and I can't change it, so I just keep quiet. I don't particularly respect it but I accept it.

[Paulclem]

I don't find anything believable in religion. I don't know how people believe in it at all. But I get the fact that they do, and I can't change it, so I just keep quiet. I don't particularly respect it but I accept it.

What's important to me is how people are. If they are tryin to shove it down my throat then I don't respect that. I don't find that much here though. In my work i mix with Atheists, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and we all get on. Belief doesn't come up, but there's a lot of respect because of how peple conduct themselves.

I work for the local authority teaching english and maths to many people from different countries as well as english people. I don't tend to find anyone broadcasting their beliefs either. It's just not an issue on an interpersonal level. I'm not sure ifthat's the same in other countries - there seems to be a bit more evangelism in the US. I would find that a bit annoying I think.

[G L Wilson]

I don't find anything believable in religion. I don't know how people believe in it at all. But I get the fact that they do, and I can't change it, so I just keep quiet. I don't particularly respect it but I accept it.

Religion is something that I am never going to respect, however I accept its existence and that it brings a lot of people a lot of happiness.

[cl154576]

There seems to be a bit more evangelism in the US. I would find that a bit annoying I think.

It depends entirely on where you are. US is so large and mixed a country that there is no way to generalize. I would say in the more industrialized places people are quite open-minded, especially since there are many immigrants.

[Miss 87]

may you should know when you are discussing _ taking and giving _ and when yor are arguing. and none of them is wrong or wright. and the truth sometimes has more than one face but sometimes only one face.this is of course my point of view)

[Paulclem]

It depends entirely on where you are. US is so large and mixed a country that there is no way to generalize. I would say in the more industrialized places people are quite open-minded, especially since there are many immigrants.

I understand this is so. Varenne has described it in another thread, and I was referring to those parts that are.

[Vonny]

What's important to me is how people are. If they are tryin to shove it down my throat then I don't respect that. I don't find that much here though. In my work i mix with Atheists, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and we all get on. Belief doesn't come up, but there's a lot of respect because of how peple conduct themselves.

I work for the local authority teaching english and maths to many people from different countries as well as english people. I don't tend to find anyone broadcasting their beliefs either. It's just not an issue on an interpersonal level. I'm not sure ifthat's the same in other countries - there seems to be a bit more evangelism in the US. I would find that a bit annoying I think.

Where I live there are billboards all along the highways that "advertise" Jesus. Last week I was traveling between Coeur d'Alene and Post Falls, which are towns just a few miles apart, but we drive the interstate. I saw at least 2 billboards which said "He will draw you closer to Him," and such. And these signs are in addition to the churches and the church signs.

A few weeks ago when my brother drove through Montana, he saw a giant billboard by the interstate that said, "In this valley, Jesus Christ is Lord."

There are no Muslims where I live. There are no Sikhs. I don't know what a Sikh is. I read in the newspaper that there are a few isolated Jews here, but I don't know where. Also, there are no blacks, no Asians or anything else. When I say there are NONE, I mean there are very, very few.

I don't want to sound prejudiced, because I'm not, but if I met some Muslims, I would be uneasy, because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes. But, again, I'm not prejudiced.

I've been in the Costco store in CdA a couple of times recently when the store was very busy. If you don't know what Costco is, it's a very large major store. When I look around in there, I don't see a single black person - I mean not one. You don't see a single Asian. Well, occasionally there could be one, but usually not. I saw one woman who looked perhaps Mexican. Occasionally you see a family that has come over from Washington for the day, that is something like Mexican. But it is rare to see a black family, ever. There are a couple of "token" blacks that work at Costco. I think, by law, they have to hire one or two - that law must be a federal law because it would never be a state law. The black persons who work at Costco don't live in Idaho, they live in Washington and commute. I think there is one apartment complex in this area where some blacks and Mexicans live, but for some reason, they aren't seen around town. Also, when you look around in the store, everyone is dressed similarly - now for summer, a lot of loose, casual clothes, such as shorts with a shirt hanging out.

The Aryan Nations have kept minorities out of this area. The A.N. has been suppressed a bit in recent years and they aren't so well organized anymore, since this area has been promoted as a resort. But the Aryan Nations are here. And there's no question but that the people of North Idaho appreciate the work that they continue to do.

I was speaking to one of the A.N. He's kind of an unofficial member, as many are. I asked him what's going on with them. He said there has been a plan on the table for some time to take back Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and I think Utah and part of Canada to make an all-white zone. He said, "We could do it easily because there's only a mud colored person here and there in these states." He said, "We could clear them out of Washington too, even though there are many minorities there, we could easily clear them out." He said, "We've got the guns!" The only problem he said is that the Conservative has become lazy. All the Conservative cares about now is his big screen television, his money and his stuff, and they've lost their b---s, (that word for male power.) ...Anyway, the attitudes are very much alive.

I hope this doesn't come out wrong. I'm not promoting this, I'm just stating facts.

There were some Buddha dolls in the bookstore and I thought they were cute. I thought about buying one and setting it in my window. I changed my mind because it would draw attention to me, and people would be averse to me. There could be areas in CdA where a Buddha doll could be set out, I don't know. The small towns are very intolerant.

And then crosses and flags go together. The American flag is EVERYWHERE.

Another thing is that any gay seeming boy here is forced to drop out of high school because they are brutally harassed in school.

I admit that I'm glad we don't have gang activity or graffiti - things like that. The minority gang members are the ones who shoot innocent bystanders in California or Chicago.

It's also good that we don't have wild nightclubs or strip clubs. For that, people go to the state-line, on the Idaho/Washington border.

Gee, as always I feel strange to post this, because I don't know how it looks. I don't want to be viewed as intolerant - it's just this is where I live, and to an extent I'm a product of it. I guess I'm a bit afraid of minorities because I've never known any. I'm also afraid of the Aryan Nations.

[MarkBastable]

I don't want to sound prejudiced, because I'm not, but if I met some Muslims, I would be uneasy, because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes. But, again, I'm not prejudiced.


"....I would be uneasy , because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes..."

That's pretty much a dictionary definition of prejudice.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

When I was in a small town on the Arkansas/Texas border, there was a very large billboard that proclaimed, "PRAISE JESUS OR BEWARE." I was a pilgrim in an unholy land.

[Paulclem]

Hi Vonny. The county in the UK that I'm from is very intolerant of minorities in parts - usually the smaller vilages, so I understand the atmosphere a bit. it's almost like a casual topic in some areas, though the big towns are multi racial. There are problems in certain other Northern towns too such as Blackburn. What there isn't is the big focus on Christianity.

I think attendance started dropping in church as soon as it was no longer an offence not to go. I always thought that WW1 had had a big influence on church attendance, but apparently numbers were seriously dropping in the 1850s here. People are nominally Christian usually - meaning they aren't in any meaningful sense of the word.

As for meeting people - people are people Christian, Sikh whatever. The vast majority are nice. You just have to get past appearances. I see and speak to many on a daily basis.

[YesNo]

"losing one's cool" and "getting angry" aren't necessarily the same thing. Maybe it would just be a semantic difference for some people. Anyhow, I can see "being angry" as being different from "losing one's cool" pretty clearly.

In Kill Bill, the protagonist has a huge store of anger within her, and it gives her strength. She doesn't flail around and act with uncontrollable lizard-brain rage at the sight of her enemies, however.

Many athletes are powered by such emotion, as well--Michael Jordan often got angry at opponents, and to see Asashoryu wrestle in his prime, just the look on his face (the complete disdain for his opponent) was enough to assure all who were watching that he would win.
I think you are right about Kill Bill. The movies remind me of revenge fantasies now that I think about it.

I recall the scene when the protagonist removed the remaining eye from one of the bad guys (girl, in this case) with some special martial arts technique. The protagonist was cool, but not without anger. Her opponent just raged helplessly.

It seems that the movies were created to generate anger in the audience as well and then to have the protagonist resolve the anger through violence.

[cl154576]

There are no Muslims where I live. There are no Sikhs. I don't know what a Sikh is. I read in the newspaper that there are a few isolated Jews here, but I don't know where. Also, there are no blacks, no Asians or anything else. When I say there are NONE, I mean there are very, very few. ... I guess I'm a bit afraid of minorities because I've never known any. I'm also afraid of the Aryan Nations.

I never knew about the Aryan Nations until you posted this and I searched it. ... It's frightening. But I understand why that would happen in your area; most immigrants don't think of settling in such places anyway. Usually they come to the cities of the East Coast, or on the West Coast, California or Seattle. Cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are also pretty popular considerations. Once they've settled down more they might move into the suburbs but usually not too far from the city.

I don't think anyone can clear all the minorities out of Seattle and surrounding area that easily ...

About your view of minorities, I'd like to comment. I live in a suburban area of well-off immigrants, mostly Asian, and it's extremely secure. There's virtually no crime (excepting what some stupid high school students do, but I think there are students like that everywhere) and there are definitely no gangs or graffiti.

There's a stereotypical view that minorities in general bring crimes, gangs, etc. I think there has to be some financial factor as well. There aren't many places near me where there are only poor whites, so I don't know about that situation, but many areas with poor minorities tend to be more dangerous.

[Paulclem]

I never knew about the Aryan Nations until you posted this and I searched it. ... It's frightening. But I understand why that would happen in your area; most immigrants don't think of settling in such places anyway. Usually they come to the cities of the East Coast, or on the West Coast, California or Seattle. Cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are also pretty popular considerations. Once they've settled down more they might move into the suburbs but usually not too far from the city.

I don't think anyone can clear all the minorities out of Seattle and surrounding area that easily ...

About your view of minorities, I'd like to comment. I live in a suburban area of well-off immigrants, mostly Asian, and it's extremely secure. There's virtually no crime (excepting what some stupid high school students do, but I think there are students like that everywhere) and there are definitely no gangs or graffiti.

There's a stereotypical view that minorities in general bring crimes, gangs, etc. I think there has to be some financial factor as well. There aren't many places near me where there are only poor whites, so I don't know about that situation, but many areas with poor minorities tend to be more dangerous.

Yes. During the UK riots, the Asian shopkeepers etc were the ones out on the street protecting properties in Birmingham.

[billl]

@Yes/No (sorry should have used the quote, and now I have to go!) And anger is a useful and healthy part of the human emotional spectrum, the potential for "overdoing it with the anger" aside. The capacity for self-control can be thought of as a separate issue.





EDIT:


I think you are right about Kill Bill. The movies remind me of revenge fantasies now that I think about it.

I recall the scene when the protagonist removed the remaining eye from one of the bad guys (girl, in this case) with some special martial arts technique. The protagonist was cool, but not without anger. Her opponent just raged helplessly.

It seems that the movies were created to generate anger in the audience as well and then to have the protagonist resolve the anger through violence.

(There, I had time to go back and paste it in! I had posted and then realized there were several subsequent posts that I hadn't read yet.)

That's an interesting idea that the director might be trying to generate anger in the audience. For me, I remember rooting for the protagonist as she sought revenge, but I don't think I actually shared in the anger. It definitely might vary from person to person, though, or even within the same person on different viewings, who knows. There was a lot of action and violence--I think people like seeing the extreme stuff in movies kind of like we like riding a roller-coaster. We're safe, but still get to experience the thrills.

[Varenne Rodin]

The "Aryan Nations" thing is a strange matter to bring up on this thread. I sincerely doubt they have any sway in Washington state at all. Really, they like to make their numbers sound larger than they are. There are a lot of racist people in the bible belt, but they aren't organized. They don't keep places like Mississippi or Louisiana from being populated mostly by African Americans. No one will drive ethnic diversity out of America. It's a stupid goal.

I've lived in California my whole life and I have never encountered gang violence. I have grown up near the border and seen what loving, hardworking families Mexican Americans have. There are black people here, Asians, islanders, Canadians, Germans, Irish etc. We all get along, for the most part. I never experienced racism once before traveling outside of California. I'm sure it happens in small, impoverished burbs, but it's certainly not the norm. It's the safest state I've been to. My issues with the increases in Christian extremism don't have anything to do with race or gangs. I don't want to get political, but gangs happen where poverty is rampant. Miami is a perfect example because there is no middle class. Immigrants arrive with nothing. No one helps them. There is crime. The South is full of poor people who vote down educational funding in favor of sending their kids to Christian schools or homeschooling them. The lack of a progressive educational system, coupled with poor parenting practices, is the biggest factor contributing to racism, so it can't all be blamed on religion.

To sum up, racism and religious extremism are two separate issues.

[ftil]

Originally Posted by Arrowni
To respect someone beliefs you have to believe they are believable. If you cannot bring yourself to believe in belief, you'll not achieve real respect.

I would argue that. Beliefs are just beliefs. We don’t respect people because they are entrenched in their belief system. We respect people who have integrity and honesty is integral part of having integrity. I have found very freeing reading Carl Rogers theory as he stated that psychologically healthy people have a flexible belief system. They don’t need to invest all energy to defend their belief system but they are open minded and change their beliefs when introduced with new information. Secondly, I have found quite interesting to see striking similarities in many religions. It doesn’t matter if it is Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek/Roman, Gnostic, Muslim, Judaism, or Native American religion. We may ask question: why we argue? :ihih:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The "Aryan Nation" is nothing to be worried about. The "nation" in they're name is misleading. Something more accurate would be "Aryan Group of a Dozen or so White Trash, Beer Swilling Morons Who Have No Real Power and Like to Occasionally Hold Signs." I'd doubt if the actual number of people in the "Aryan Nation" goes higher than a 1000.

[Paulclem]

I would argue that. Beliefs are just beliefs. We don’t respect people because they are entrenched in their belief system. We respect people who have integrity and honesty is integral part of having integrity. I have found very freeing reading Carl Rogers theory as he stated that psychologically healthy people have a flexible belief system. They don’t need to invest all energy to defend their belief system but they are open minded and change their beliefs when introduced with new information. Secondly, I have found quite interesting to see striking similarities in many religions. It doesn’t matter if it is Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek/Roman, Gnostic, Muslim, Judaism, or Native American religion. We may ask question: why we argue? :ihih:

There are similarities, but also many differences. It's interesting to note that the three religions who are the most similar, and indeed come from related traditions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - have had the most trouble between them.

I agree that a person who is openminded, whatever their personal belief, is likely to be less intolerant. True tolerance comes from accepting that people believe totally different things from oneslf, but that this doesn't matter in normal interpersonal relations.

[ftil]

There are similarities, but also many differences. It's interesting to note that the three religions who are the most similar, and indeed come from related traditions - Christianity, Islam and Judaism - have had the most trouble between them.

I agree that a person who is openminded, whatever their personal belief, is likely to be less intolerant. True tolerance comes from accepting that people believe totally different things from oneslf, but that this doesn't matter in normal interpersonal relations.

You have only mentioned Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and it is obvious. I have found fascinating to find similarities in Buddhism, Hindu, Greek, Egyptian, or Gnostic. I have found more similarities than differences. :brow:

[Vonny]

There's quite a bit I'd like to say but my mind is a bit muddled.

First, if I am prejudiced, it's not something I'm proud of.

Mutatis, I can relate to how you felt on the AR/TX border. I don't feel any better about Christians than I do Muslims, it's just that Christians are more familiar.

Washington is a different world from Idaho, Montana, etc.

It's true that there are not a great number of Aryan Nation members, but the average person on the street here has those sentiments, at least to an extent. And when you go into a store here, you do not see minorities - just a fact. They aren't tolerated here. Now, the black man who works at Costco is treated well, but that's because everyone understands why he's there.

Anyway, this is just a point I want to make because it seems that here on the forum people don't believe this is true. I've become very aware of our difference from coming here and reading how people interact with Muslims and whatnot on a daily basis, and I'm in a different world. Varenne, I really don't know why we have no minorities, maybe we don't have all the poor people - yet, anyway.

In CdA there are a group of men who have a computer repair business, and they are all gay. They even have a picture of two of them getting married setting out. This is very new for here, and they are taking a chance. They couldn't do it in a small town.

I know of a woman who had a boyfriend from Tailand. I don't know how she met him, but he moved here. He was determined that he was going to stay here, but after he got beat up a couple of times, he moved to Hawaii. She also had a black boyfriend who came over from Washington for a weekend. He didn't understand why they couldn't go out together to a bar here. This woman is actually rather daring, but she said she told him, "You just don't understand!!" They did go out somewhere together, but she said that it was an uncomfortable evening.

Paul and cl15 - Thanks for your comments. I know that what you say is true. The truth is that I have a sort of social anxiety, and I avoid all kinds of people a lot, at least for the time being.

I know I'm not prejudiced at all towards Asians or Jews because I have studied them a lot -- and the Holocaust and Anne Frank is very heartbreaking. Also, I don't want to be political, but my heart goes out to, especially, the children of Iraq.

[Paulclem]

You have only mentioned Christianity, Islam, and Judaism and it is obvious. I have found fascinating to find similarities in Buddhism, Hindu, Greek, Egyptian, or Gnostic. I have found more similarities than differences. :brow:

The point I was making is that there has been a lot of confict between the three religions that are closely related.

Of course there are similarities between religions, but on the one hand you have a religion with multiple Gods, Karma, rebirth, caste, meditation practice, Tantra and Yoga, - Hinduism, and on the other you have a monotheistic religion with a trinity, a single Holy Book, prophets, heaven/hell afterlife - christianity. I'm not whether your point is useful, but you could argue that there are as many differences as similarities.

[Drkshadow03]

The point I was making is that there has been a lot of confict between the three religions that are closely related.

Of course there are similarities between religions, but on the one hand you have a religion with multiple Gods, Karma, rebirth, caste, meditation practice, Tantra and Yoga, - Hinduism, and on the other you have a monotheistic religion with a trinity, a single Holy Book, prophets, heaven/hell afterlife - christianity. I'm not whether your point is useful, but you could argue that there are as many differences as similarities.

Not to mention there are far more differences than there are similarities. The Creation Myths of many of those different religions and cultures, even when sharing some similar elements, are extremely different in their meanings and emphasis. Even between Judaism and Christianity there are huge differences.

[Vonny]

Just want to add something because I feel that my comments on this thread have come out wrong, as is my habit.

I know that I'm not prejudiced against any race or religion. The only thing I want to avoid is anyone who could be threatening - any kind of gang activity - no matter who they are.

A lot of people today who call themselves Christians are bullies. And then with Muslims, I fear some retalliation, and then I guess there is fear of the unknown, which I have regarding just about everything that is unknown.

And then Buddhism makes a lot of sense to me, though there is no group of Buddhists to meet with where I live. But I like how Buddhists are non-aggressive.

It isn't that I don't like these different kinds of people, it's just that I don't know them, and because of my personal anxiety problem, it's difficult for me to venture out to meet them, (which would also mean going to Washington, and I'd need a whole lot of Xanax to really do that.)

[LitNetIsGreat]

Just want to add something because I feel that my comments on this thread have come out wrong, as is my habit.

I know that I'm not prejudiced against any race or religion. The only thing I want to avoid is anyone who could be threatening - any kind of gang activity - no matter who they are.

A lot of people today who call themselves Christians are bullies. And then with Muslims, I fear some retalliation, and then I guess there is fear of the unknown, which I have regarding just about everything that is unknown.

And then Buddhism makes a lot of sense to me, though there is no group of Buddhists to meet with where I live. But I like how Buddhists are non-aggressive.

It isn't that I don't like these different kinds of people, it's just that I don't know them, and because of my personal anxiety problem, it's difficult for me to venture out to meet them, (which would also mean going to Washington, and I'd need a whole lot of Xanax to really do that.)

Off post topic sorry. However, there is something about Vonny that just makes me want to hug her!!!:biggrin5:

[ftil]

The point I was making is that there has been a lot of confict between the three religions that are closely related.

Of course there are similarities between religions, but on the one hand you have a religion with multiple Gods, Karma, rebirth, caste, meditation practice, Tantra and Yoga, - Hinduism, and on the other you have a monotheistic religion with a trinity, a single Holy Book, prophets, heaven/hell afterlife - christianity. I'm not whether your point is useful, but you could argue that there are as many differences as similarities.

My point is that if people see similarities they may not want to fight with each other but dance and laugh together. People argue when they see differences and if they can’t accept it but fight to death to defend their beliefs. On the basic level we see that catholic religion is different that Buddhism,or Hindu is different than Egyptian religion, or Gnostic is different that Greek/Roman. But when we look deeper we may be quite surprised. :ihih:

[Calidore]

Half full/half empty. The similarities and differences are both there; which people focus on, and what they do about it, is an indicator of character, nothing more.

[Vonny]

Off post topic sorry. However, there is something about Vonny that just makes me want to hug her!!!:biggrin5:

Off topic one last time on this thread. :)

Thank you Neely, you're so sweet! For some reason I felt my self-esteem plummeting all afternoon after writing all this drivel that simply came out wrong, and then I didn't know how to fix it. You made me feel better!

[stlukesguild]

Where I live there are billboards all along the highways that "advertise" Jesus. Last week I was traveling between Coeur d'Alene and Post Falls, which are towns just a few miles apart, but we drive the interstate. I saw at least 2 billboards which said "He will draw you closer to Him," and such. And these signs are in addition to the churches and the church signs.

A few weeks ago when my brother drove through Montana, he saw a giant billboard by the interstate that said, "In this valley, Jesus Christ is Lord."

There are no Muslims where I live. There are no Sikhs. I don't know what a Sikh is. I read in the newspaper that there are a few isolated Jews here, but I don't know where. Also, there are no blacks, no Asians or anything else. When I say there are NONE, I mean there are very, very few.

I've been in the Costco store in CdA a couple of times recently when the store was very busy. If you don't know what Costco is, it's a very large major store. When I look around in there, I don't see a single black person - I mean not one. You don't see a single Asian. Well, occasionally there could be one, but usually not. I saw one woman who looked perhaps Mexican. Occasionally you see a family that has come over from Washington for the day, that is something like Mexican. But it is rare to see a black family, ever. There are a couple of "token" blacks that work at Costco. I think, by law, they have to hire one or two - that law must be a federal law because it would never be a state law. The black persons who work at Costco don't live in Idaho, they live in Washington and commute. I think there is one apartment complex in this area where some blacks and Mexicans live, but for some reason, they aren't seen around town. Also, when you look around in the store, everyone is dressed similarly - now for summer, a lot of loose, casual clothes, such as shorts with a shirt hanging out...

...I was speaking to one of the A.N. He's kind of an unofficial member, as many are. I asked him what's going on with them. He said there has been a plan on the table for some time to take back Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and I think Utah and part of Canada to make an all-white zone. He said, "We could do it easily because there's only a mud colored person here and there in these states." He said, "We could clear them out of Washington too, even though there are many minorities there, we could easily clear them out." He said, "We've got the guns!"...

this is just a point I want to make because it seems that here on the forum people don't believe this is true. I've become very aware of our difference from coming here and reading how people interact with Muslims and whatnot on a daily basis, and I'm in a different world. Varenne, I really don't know why we have no minorities, maybe we don't have all the poor people - yet, anyway.

In CdA there are a group of men who have a computer repair business, and they are all gay. They even have a picture of two of them getting married setting out. This is very new for here, and they are taking a chance. They couldn't do it in a small town.

I know of a woman who had a boyfriend from Tailand. I don't know how she met him, but he moved here. He was determined that he was going to stay here, but after he got beat up a couple of times, he moved to Hawaii. She also had a black boyfriend who came over from Washington for a weekend. He didn't understand why they couldn't go out together to a bar here. This woman is actually rather daring, but she said she told him, "You just don't understand!!" They did go out somewhere together, but she said that it was an uncomfortable evening.

Vonny... What third world part of the United States are you living in? I live in the mid-west... Ohio... which for some time now has become known as a haven of Conservatism. In spite of this my next door neighbor is black with a white wife. The neighbors across the street are Puerto Rican. I share an art studio with an older Jewish artist, a Korean and a Chinese guy. My Jewish friend (I'm of German heritage) regularly eat in a diner owned and operated by a Palestinian with whom we regularly discuss politics. We just got home from dinner at a Lebanese restaurant. There are neighborhoods around the city that are Chinese, Jewish, Arabic, Puerto-Rican, Russian, Black, Italian, etc... I can't imagine such a homogeneous culture such as you speak of. Why do you stay? I haven't seen such in any of the areas of the US that I have traveled in.

I seriously have to laugh at the back-woods boonies mentalities of your Bubbas imagining that they could easily retake control of the nation because they have a few guns. Do they honestly imagine that all the gang-bangers in the inner cities are unarmed? What are their numbers in relation to the population of the large cities and surrounding urban neighborhoods?

There was an article not so long ago dealing with the issue of American cities. For some time now there has been this false notion pushed by certain aspects of the press that the "real" America is to be found in the small town and burrows. It hearkens back to a sort of "Leave to Beaver" fantasy of the all white upper-middle-class neighborhoods with look-alike houses with picket fences. As a result, there has been a push to give tax breaks and other incentives to build houses and business in the suburbs (something that certainly favors the oil and auto industries) and beyond while the big cities struggle with issues of crime, substandard education, substandard services, etc... The author argued, and I agree, that if anything, it has always been the great cities that are the "real" America and that have been the driving force behind the nation. I can't imagine living any but the city.

Regardless of the beliefs of your few local racists, the nation as a whole is being continually transformed toward an increasingly multicultural mix. No... I don't buy into the "melting pot" image. Individuals from various cultures are not readily willing to surrender their native culture for some ideal universal American culture... nor should they. If there needs to be a metaphor, perhaps something akin to a great stew in which various elements mix together... yet retain their individual "taste" might be more apt. Cultural differences certainly lead to tensions from time to time... especially among those who refuse to associate with others outside of their own culture.
I, on the other hand, would be bored with a uniformity of culture of which you speak.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Have you driven to Texas StLukes? It's a terrifying experience, and Vonny isn't exaggerating. I live right next to St. Louis, MO, a relatively conservative city, but still diverse like what you describe (though, maybe not as much so). There's a difference between conservatives and complete right-wing loons that one will experience on the Arkansas/Texas border.

[ftil]

Half full/half empty. The similarities and differences are both there; which people focus on, and what they do about it, is an indicator of character, nothing more.


Yes, it is important what people do about it and how they act. However, not everybody has reached a certain level of maturity, and as such, they are quite reactive. It applies to any beliefs we hold as truth but religious beliefs can evoke quite heated discussions. I have seen on other forums discussions where enthusiasts of Buddhism, Hindu or Neopagan religions fought to death with Catholics. If they could look beyond their beliefs, they would loose interest to fight. I am sick and tired of watching people arguing and imposing their beliefs upon others. I am more practical than you as I look for tools. :smilewinkgrin: Empty talk doesn’t bring any changes. :beatdeadhorse5:

[BienvenuJDC]

Yes, it is important what people do about it and how they act. However, not everybody has reached a certain level of maturity, and as such, they are quite reactive. It applies to any beliefs we hold as truth but religious beliefs can evoke quite heated discussions. I have seen on other forums discussions where enthusiasts of Buddhism, Hindu or Neopagan religions fought to death with Catholics. If they could look beyond their beliefs, they would loose interest to fight. I am sick and tired of watching people arguing and imposing their beliefs upon others. I am more practical than you as I look for tools. :smilewinkgrin: Empty talk doesn’t bring any changes. :beatdeadhorse5:

Interesting enough, it seems as if the atheist individuals are the ones who want to impose their beliefs the most...

[MarkBastable]

Interesting enough, it seems as if the atheist individuals are the ones who want to impose their beliefs the most...


You keep saying that - but I can't see the evidence for it...

[BienvenuJDC]

Vonny... What third world part of the United States are you living in? I live in the mid-west... Ohio... which for some time now has become known as a haven of Conservatism. In spite of this my next door neighbor is black with a white wife. The neighbors across the street are Puerto Rican. I share an art studio with an older Jewish artist, a Korean and a Chinese guy. My Jewish friend (I'm of German heritage) regularly eat in a diner owned and operated by a Palestinian with whom we regularly discuss politics. We just got home from dinner at a Lebanese restaurant. There are neighborhoods around the city that are Chinese, Jewish, Arabic, Puerto-Rican, Russian, Black, Italian, etc... I can't imagine such a homogeneous culture such as you speak of. Why do you stay? I haven't seen such in any of the areas of the US that I have traveled in.


St Luke, I think that you should have said...BECAUSE of this. It seems that the media has been able to paint "conservatism" as being racist and prejudice. The reality is that Conservatives are the ones who are the most "color blind". We do not think that there should be any differences. We all are people. I can't believe that you implied that it is "in spite" of conservatism that the community has become diverse.


You keep saying that - but I can't see the evidence for it...

It seems that it was the atheists that were wanting to put a ban on religion....not the other way around. Yes....that was said HERE at this site. You will see what you want to see.

[stlukesguild]

Have you driven to Texas StLukes? It's a terrifying experience, and Vonny isn't exaggerating. I live right next to St. Louis, MO, a relatively conservative city, but still diverse like what you describe (though, maybe not as much so). There's a difference between conservatives and complete right-wing loons that one will experience on the Arkansas/Texas border.

It's been a while since I've been through Texas. Certainly the big cities must have large populations of Mexican- and Black-Americans... but I can imagine on the vast isolated plains there is still a pre-Civil War mentality. Most of the where I have traveled more recently and frequently is the North-Eastern portion of the nation... from St.Louis (I visited for a Max Beckmann exhibition some years back) through the East Coast including Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Baltimore, Dover, New York, Jersey City, Newark, Boston, Providence, etc... I tend to focus on the big cities as my interests are focused upon cultural sites (museums, orchestras, etc...) but of course I have to travel through the surrounding suburbs and open rural landscapes to get from one point to the next.

[Vonny]

Luke you are an intelligent man but you have not been to Idaho.

We do not have bi-racial couples here. We do not have black people in our stores, except for occasionally maybe one. Once in a while you see a white couple with a black or Chinese child.

There are a few Mexican restaurants. Mexicans are allowed to live here and operate those because people like the food. There are a couple of Chinese restaurants and even a new Thai one.

Some people have tattoos, but a minority. I don't see very many piercings.

In Ohio and in Pennsylvania there is that diversity even though it's Christian. But not here.

I hate to say it because I don't want to have another car on the road, but come on out and see for yourself.

And we don't have homeless people sleeping in parks because it is a crime to be homeless, and they are arrested.

There are lots of poor people here. And there are apartment buildings that are full of meth - I know this is a fact, but I don't see them because I don't go near them.

When you cross over into the state of Washington, it is a completely different world - piercings and tattoos galore, black people, people walking around with half their clothing falling off.

I know a woman, 23 years-old, who went to high school in Boise, in South Idaho. I forget right now what percentage of her high school was Latter Day Saints, but a lot. She plays soccer and she had a very difficult time with them. She is Christian but not LDS.

In the high schools in the larger cities, CdA and Post Falls, there are a few black kids, (very few) and they are accepted because they are good athletes. But no boy who appears gay can stay in high school and graduate. They are relentlessly bullied until they drop out.

I'm not saying that everyone is that kind of Christian, but it is a major force here.

Anyway, Ohio is not like Idaho. If you haven't been here and you don't know anyone who lives here and tells the truth, then you shouldn't discredit me.

Why do I stay here? I may move to Oregon someday, but I will always live in a low population density. I love Idaho. I like the remote areas, and the fact that it's only been a few years since a moose stopped traffic on Hwy 95. Of course, that's changing with more and more people coming in. I could never, ever live in a large city, even Coeur d'Alene.

Another thing, do you have cars with booming stereos on your streets? We don't - not even in CdA. Okay - some of the houseboats get rowdy, I admit.

I'd like to drop this subject now, at least for a day or two. If you think I need antipsychotic medication it's okay.

[stlukesguild]

St Luke, I think that you should have said...BECAUSE of this. It seems that the media has been able to paint "conservatism" as being racist and prejudice. The reality is that Conservatives are the ones who are the most "color blind". We do not think that there should be any differences. We all are people. I can't believe that you implied that it is "in spite" of conservatism that the community has become diverse.

What I was suggesting was that in spite of the image of Ohio as a haven for Conservative extremists as per the 2nd Bush election and irregularities in the Ohio voting progress that delayed the final count making Ohio a joke on par with Florida:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ

we are far from being anywhere near the extremism that Vonny speaks of. I don't know that I'd buy the notion that Conservatives are less color-blind than Liberals. Certainly the Republicans have done well playing to the extreme Conservative fringe who are afraid of Blacks and Hispanics and Asians and Muslims and anything that "un-American". The problem I have with the Liberal fringe with regard to race is their refusal to acknowledge the failure of certain programs that may have began with the highest of intentions such as that generations of institutionalized Welfare that continues to reward mothers for having repeated children that they can't afford (especially if no father is present) and forced busing. Such programs have clearly served to maintain the cycle of poverty where money could be put to better use through education, job training, etc...

[BienvenuJDC]

A lot of people today who call themselves Christians are bullies.


Yes....yes, there are. However, there are just as many, of not more among the other groups. Just because there are more Christians around it seems like there are more Christian bullies....it only takes a few....don't judge the rest of us due to THOSE morons.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

St Luke, I think that you should have said...BECAUSE of this. It seems that the media has been able to paint "conservatism" as being racist and prejudice. The reality is that Conservatives are the ones who are the most "color blind". We do not think that there should be any differences. We all are people. I can't believe that you implied that it is "in spite" of conservatism that the community has become diverse.
:smilielol5: Oh, man, thanks for that. I needed a laugh.

[BienvenuJDC]

:smilielol5: Oh, man, thanks for that. I needed a laugh.

Like I said before...people will see what they want to see....and the media has presented a well developed propaganda. It is these kinds of prejudices that have made respect obsolete.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Oh, quit with the liberal controlled media BS. There's liberal controlled media, conservative controlled media, and everything in between, each producing their own propaganda. The liberal media argument has become so passé. It's a joke that conservatives still use it.

[BienvenuJDC]

Oh, quit with the liberal controlled media BS. There's liberal controlled media, conservative controlled media, and everything in between, each producing their own propaganda. The liberal media argument has become so passé. It's a joke that conservatives still use it.

Since the majority of the networks are liberal controlled....it is still far left reaching. I don't care if you accept that or not...it's just the way it has always been.

[ftil]

Interesting enough, it seems as if the atheist individuals are the ones who want to impose their beliefs the most...

I am wondering how you could come up with your conclusion. :lol: I guess we hear…….. what we want to hear. :wink5:

[BienvenuJDC]

I am wondering how you could come up with your conclusion. :lol: I guess we hear…….. what we want to hear. :wink5:

Since it is the atheists who want to control what is taught in schools, blotting out prayer in school and other events (even though the majority may want it among a local group, wanting to remove any reference to God all around. In fact there is the thread here that shows them talking about banning religion. The ACLU very actively protests anything to do with religion. That is how I come to that conclusion. While I can admit that there are negative Christian influences. I rarely see that atheist can even see their negative sides. They laugh and scoff at any mention of the possibility.

[Scheherazade]

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your comments.

Posts containing such remarks will be removed without further warning.

[Varenne Rodin]

It seems that it was the atheists that were wanting to put a ban on religion....not the other way around. Yes....that was said HERE at this site. You will see what you want to see.

Oh, brother. I can't believe my comments have been taken so far out of context. I was clearly being facetious when I said we could ban religion, and those words were immediately followed by "or if that's too harsh, we could at least hold them accountable?" The point being that groups of people shouldn't be allowed to operate outside the laws we are ALL governed by.

In that particular conversation, the most heinous church related crimes were being discussed. It's really kind of creepy that someone would fixate on that and somehow twist it to mean that atheists are trying to force their "belief set" on everyone. Keep the hate going, I guess. (Now I will be quoted as saying "keep the hate going" and it will be used as a means of villifying atheism)

[BienvenuJDC]

Oh, brother. I can't believe my comments have been taken so far out of context. I was clearly being facetious when I said we could ban religion, and those words were immediately followed by "or if that's too harsh, we could at least hold them accountable?" The point being that groups of people shouldn't be allowed to operate outside the laws we are ALL governed by.

In that particular conversation, the most heinous church related crimes were being discussed. It's really kind of creepy that someone would fixate on that and somehow twist it to mean that atheists are trying to force their "belief set" on everyone. Keep the hate going, I guess. (Now I will be quoted as saying "keep the hate going" and it will be used as a means of villifying atheism)

In the same manner, Christianity is vilified. But it seems from my perspective, that it is the rule, not the exception that Christianity is vilified. Also, it seems that many individuals speak harshly and bitterly how they cannot respect the belief in a God, but very few if any at all have made such statements against atheism.

[Varenne Rodin]

In the same manner, Christianity is vilified. But it seems from my perspective, that it is the rule, not the exception that Christianity is vilified. Also, it seems that many individuals speak harshly and bitterly how they cannot respect the belief in a God, but very few if any at all have made such statements against atheism.

Christianity only causes harsh bitterness when Christians are inflicting cruelties on others. I'm not even bitter about it, I just have a right for my children to NOT experience it in public schools. If that, to you, makes atheism a religion (and one to rally against, as you frequently do), then there is no reasoning with you. You're like self-proclaimed death to freedom. I hope you will someday find out what empathy is.

[G L Wilson]

Where Reason is, Imagination is too.
Where Imagination on its own is, Reason hides.

[WyattGwyon]

In the same manner, Christianity is vilified. But it seems from my perspective, that it is the rule, not the exception that Christianity is vilified. Also, it seems that many individuals speak harshly and bitterly how they cannot respect the belief in a God, but very few if any at all have made such statements against atheism.

In your posts you consistently describe religious thinking and atheism as if they are contrasting belief systems vying to promote their competing perspectives. The problem with this is that atheism is not a belief system at all but the absence of a belief system. Wishing to uphold the constitution by preventing the establishment of religion in public schools is not promoting an atheist belief system—there is no such thing—it is merely preventing religious people from imposing their beliefs on others. We should vilify anyone who thinks they can use public institutions to promote their private religious beliefs, even if they are part of a group constituting 98% of the local population.

[Hawkman]

I invite all right thinking people to join with me in Secular Orthodoxy. To find out what it is, visit my blog. Only genuinely good people are eligable to join :D

[ftil]

Since it is the atheists who want to control what is taught in schools, blotting out prayer in school and other events (even though the majority may want it among a local group, wanting to remove any reference to God all around. In fact there is the thread here that shows them talking about banning religion. The ACLU very actively protests anything to do with religion. That is how I come to that conclusion. While I can admit that there are negative Christian influences. I rarely see that atheist can even see their negative sides. They laugh and scoff at any mention of the possibility.

Well, the never ending war continues.LOL! People have been fighting to defend their religions for centuries. Today we have the same argument but it has changed its face. Atheists speak against religion. But if we can take a deeper look we may see that we have been bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs without ever noticing it. Atheists are not aware that they are not Atheists at all. :rofl:

Secondly, generalization is dangerous as it distorts the fact that everybody is unique. We can’t say that Christians, Buddhists, or Hindu are certain way. If people who invest so much energy in their argument about religions could step back and analyze their thoughts and feelings they would learn a big deal about themselves. The name of the game is personal growth. :ihih:

[YesNo]

Well, the never ending war continues.LOL! People have been fighting to defend their religions for centuries. Today we have the same argument but it has changed its face. Atheists speak against religion. But if we can take a deeper look we may see that we have been bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs without ever noticing it. Atheists are not aware that they are not Atheists at all. :rofl:

Secondly, generalization is dangerous as it distorts the fact that everybody is unique. We can’t say that Christians, Buddhists, or Hindu are certain way. If people who invest so much energy in their argument about religions could step back and analyze their thoughts and feelings they would learn a big deal about themselves. The name of the game is personal growth. :ihih:
Since it doesn't involve me, I have to admit that I do enjoy watching Atheists and Christians fight.

Rather than knocking each other out, they should direct their annoyance at people like myself. I mean, I believe in that flaky consciousness stuff that really doesn't fit well with either Atheism or Christianity, but might be OK with Hinduism or Buddhism (as long as I'm not in India or China). I like both Darwin's Evolution (with a proper interpretation of "chance") and Near Death Experiences. I believe in both the Big Bang and ghosts.

But no, I don't get to be the target.

However, I can sympathize with both sides. Christians think Atheists don't like them and will scorn them every chance they get. They're right. Atheists think Christians don't like them and will scorn them every chance they get. They're right. It all generates a lot of needless hurt feelings, which from an adequate distance is quite amusing.

In the mean time, with all that New Age mindfulness, I will likely win the culture war by default because I'm not interested in fighting in it.

[ftil]

Since it doesn't involve me, I have to admit that I do enjoy watching Atheists and Christians fight.

Rather than knocking each other out, they should direct their annoyance at people like myself. I mean, I believe in that flaky consciousness stuff that really doesn't fit well with either Atheism or Christianity, but might be OK with Hinduism or Buddhism (as long as I'm not in India or China). I like both Darwin's Evolution (with a proper interpretation of "chance") and Near Death Experiences. I believe in both the Big Bang and ghosts.

But no, I don't get to be the target.

However, I can sympathize with both sides. Christians think Atheists don't like them and will scorn them every chance they get. They're right. Atheists think Christians don't like them and will scorn them every chance they get. They're right. It all generates a lot of needless hurt feelings, which from an adequate distance is quite amusing.

In the mean time, with all that New Age mindfulness, I will likely win the culture war by default because I'm not interested in fighting in it.

You talk about Buddhist concept of consciousness but it is a first layer what this religion is all about. BTW, I don’t understand how you can enjoy watching fight. I guess, it is a male staff….. :biggrinjester: Don’t you think that there are more empowering ways to relate to each other rather than fighting.

[Paulclem]

My point is that if people see similarities they may not want to fight with each other but dance and laugh together. People argue when they see differences and if they can’t accept it but fight to death to defend their beliefs. On the basic level we see that catholic religion is different that Buddhism,or Hindu is different than Egyptian religion, or Gnostic is different that Greek/Roman. But when we look deeper we may be quite surprised. :ihih:

Yes - I understand that, and it's not a bad position. The thing is as soon as you start to say all these things are the same, then someone else will point out that there are lots of differences too, and the opposite may result.True tolerance is accepting that people believe different things and that that's ok.

My point is that if people see similarities they may not want to fight with each other but dance and laugh together.

To reiterate an earlier point - the religions that are the closest Islam, Christianity and Judaism seem to disprove your point. They don't seem to do much laughing and singing together in Jerusalem. (I wish they would of course).

On the basic level we see that catholic religion is different that Buddhism,or Hindu is different than Egyptian religion, or Gnostic is different that Greek/Roman. But when we look deeper we may be quite surprised

Go on then - surprise me.

[Drkshadow03]

I like both Darwin's Evolution (with a proper interpretation of "chance") and Near Death Experiences. I believe in both the Big Bang and ghosts.


It's amazing that someone can have spiritual/religious beliefs and believe in evolution and other scientific discoveries, and somehow their brains don't explode in the process! :crazy:

[Varenne Rodin]

Well, the never ending war continues.LOL! People have been fighting to defend their religions for centuries. Today we have the same argument but it has changed its face. Atheists speak against religion. But if we can take a deeper look we may see that we have been bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs without ever noticing it. Atheists are not aware that they are not Atheists at all. :rofl:

Secondly, generalization is dangerous as it distorts the fact that everybody is unique. We can’t say that Christians, Buddhists, or Hindu are certain way. If people who invest so much energy in their argument about religions could step back and analyze their thoughts and feelings they would learn a big deal about themselves. The name of the game is personal growth. :ihih:

Um...

Buddhism is secular, that doesn't mean all atheists are Buddhists. Still, I wouldn't have a problem with it if someone called me a Buddhist, or said I'm not atheist, or if they called me a Christian. I know what I don't believe in. I'm well acquainted with me. Sorry to rob you of your big "gotcha". :)

It's not dangerous to say Christian groups have lobbied to have Christianity forced on public school children in America, because they don't make any business of hiding it. Unless, are you saying Christians are a danger to people who stand up for their human rights? Is this another argument for atheists to not bring up child molestation cover-ups? Also, I very specifically say Christianity is the religious group that I'm at odds with, because it's the only one that effects my daily life. For the last four hours my neighbor (the local postman) has been blasting country western Christian music. "You don't got love if you ain't got Jesus!" "Whatchu gone do when your time comes to repent? Hehe, yeehaw! Whatchu gone do then?" Nice, fun lyrics. You're right. I should never make the claim that it's fricking annoying. :D

This strange argument to try to convince atheist people that they are religious will in no way benefit you. Even if you somehow convinced us that we had some irrational belief system (I don't), it wouldn't elevate Christianity above criticism. Sorry. You are not superior to other humans for having faith.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Recent polls show that, along with Muslims, atheism is the least "liked" religious viewpoint in the USA.

What examples do you have for the vilification of Christianity, aside from following the constitution which stipulates separation of church and state?

[Drkshadow03]

This strange argument to try to convince atheist people that they are religious will in no way benefit you. Even if you somehow convinced us that we had some irrational belief system (I don't), it wouldn't elevate Christianity above criticism. Sorry. You are not superior to other humans for having faith.

Where does FTIL claim to have religious faith? I always took her to be New Agey.

[Varenne Rodin]

Where does FTIL claim to have religious faith? I always took her to be New Agey.

You know her better than I do. I was responding to the statements that were mocking atheism for being Buddhism, and the general advocation of accepting all beliefs as equal and good, when that simply isn't true. I may have jumped to the conclusion that she was Christian because, as I said, I've never heard atheist views being attacked by non-christians before. Apologies to FTIL. :)

[Varenne Rodin]

Furthermore, she seemed interested in convincing atheists that we're just as religious as everyone else. So she's either religious, or atheist. I'm sure she is capable of speaking for herself.

[Paulclem]

Atheists speak against religion. But if we can take a deeper look we may see that we have been bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs without ever noticing it.


I'm inerested in this statement. Perhaps it's just the way you phrased it.

When you say bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs, are you referring to Buddhists and Hindus doing the bombarding, or is it that elements of those teachings - meditation, psychological methods used in therapy, adoption into the language of Buddhist/ Hindu terms, meditation and yoga practices etc being adopted in westernised forms by therapists, psychologists, new agers and - in the case of language - the general public?

[Paulclem]

Furthermore, she seemed interested in convincing atheists that we're just as religious as everyone else. So she's either religious, or atheist. I'm sure she is capable of speaking for herself.

I may be wrong - and she will correct me if I am - but I think she's trying to say that we unknowingly adhere to the same kinds of beliefs - religious and atheistics alike.

I don't think we're that ill informed personally.

[ftil]

Yes - I understand that, and it's not a bad position. The thing is as soon as you start to say all these things are the same, then someone else will point out that there are lots of differences too, and the opposite may result.True tolerance is accepting that people believe different things and that that's ok.

My point is that if people see similarities they may not want to fight with each other but dance and laugh together.

To reiterate an earlier point - the religions that are the closest Islam, Christianity and Judaism seem to disprove your point. They don't seem to do much laughing and singing together in Jerusalem. (I wish they would of course).

On the basic level we see that catholic religion is different that Buddhism,or Hindu is different than Egyptian religion, or Gnostic is different that Greek/Roman. But when we look deeper we may be quite surprised

Go on then - surprise me.

Hm......you repeat the same things again. It is very obvious that tolerance is the key. But look what is going on for centuries. Don’t you think that we need to look at a problem with different consciousness than with consciousness that created it? :D

You want me to present my research that took me years of hard work. :lol: Impossible! Secondly, unless you understand how your mind or consciousness works, you are not going to see it anyway. It is very different to study a subject and to see it.

[ftil]

Um...

Buddhism is secular, that doesn't mean all atheists are Buddhists. Still, I wouldn't have a problem with it if someone called me a Buddhist, or said I'm not atheist, or if they called me a Christian. I know what I don't believe in. I'm well acquainted with me. Sorry to rob you of your big "gotcha". :)

It's not dangerous to say Christian groups have lobbied to have Christianity forced on public school children in America, because they don't make any business of hiding it. Unless, are you saying Christians are a danger to people who stand up for their human rights? Is this another argument for atheists to not bring up child molestation cover-ups? Also, I very specifically say Christianity is the religious group that I'm at odds with, because it's the only one that effects my daily life. For the last four hours my neighbor (the local postman) has been blasting country western Christian music. "You don't got love if you ain't got Jesus!" "Whatchu gone do when your time comes to repent? Hehe, yeehaw! Whatchu gone do then?" Nice, fun lyrics. You're right. I should never make the claim that it's fricking annoying. :D

This strange argument to try to convince atheist people that they are religious will in no way benefit you. Even if you somehow convinced us that we had some irrational belief system (I don't), it wouldn't elevate Christianity above criticism. Sorry. You are not superior to other humans for having faith.

My oh my. You have made so many wrong assumptions. To be honest, my head is spinning how you have come up with your conclusions. You don’t know anything about my beliefs. :lol: Sorry, I don’t want to sound sarcastic but do you always make assumptions rather than asking questions and trying to understand others point of view? :yikes:

[ftil]

Where does FTIL claim to have religious faith? I always took her to be New Agey.

Hehehe…… You are making wrong assumptions. I was newager for a decade but not any more since I did I quite solid research about Eastern religions and its New Age version. :rofl:

[Paulclem]

I was just thinking in general terms, I wouldn't expect you to share your research. But what is the point of stating something - bland frankly - like all religions are similar if you look deeply if you aren't willing to elucidate a bit? It's a bland statement until - which I'm sure you can - justify it. I'm not asking you to copy and paste a thesis.

I repeated the point because you didn't seem to get the idea that seeing similarity in religion hasn't helped in some cases.

[ftil]

I was just thinking in general terms, I wouldn't expect you to share your research. But what is the point of stating something - bland frankly - like all religions are similar if you look deeply if you aren't willing to elucidate a bit? It's a bland statement until - which I'm sure you can - justify it. I'm not asking you to copy and paste a thesis.

I repeated the point because you didn't seem to get the idea that seeing similarity in religion hasn't helped in some cases.


Hehehe…it is impossible to elucidate in a few paragraphs. If you want to have a sense what I am talking about you may look at my Mythology and Religion tread as well as my blog. It is a tip of the iceberg as I don’t have time to elaborate it. But I also do it on purpose. I want to encourage people to do own research and those images should bring many questions.

[Varenne Rodin]

My oh my. You have made so many wrong assumptions. To be honest, my head is spinning how you have come up with your conclusions. You don’t know anything about my beliefs. :lol: Sorry, I don’t want to sound sarcastic but do you always make assumptions rather than asking questions and trying to understand others point of view? :yikes:

This is not an assumption: I am not religious. You made the claim that atheists are Buddhists, and you think it is somehow hilarious. Explain yourself if you want to and if you are capable. If not, it's cool with me. I didn't really have questions for you. I was simply correcting your errors.

[YesNo]

It's amazing that someone can have spiritual/religious beliefs and believe in evolution and other scientific discoveries, and somehow their brains don't explode in the process! :crazy:
After the explosion it all makes sense. :)

[Drkshadow03]

After the explosion it all makes sense. :)

Boom! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA)!

[Varenne Rodin]

Can't elucidate? Why participate?

[YesNo]

Boom! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA)!
Hmmm. :D

So, yeah, that rates 1 banana: :banana:

[ftil]

This is not an assumption: I am not religious. You made the claim that atheists are Buddhists, and you think it is somehow hilarious. Explain yourself if you want to and if you are capable. If not, it's cool with me. I didn't really have questions for you. I was simply correcting your errors.

I didn’t say that Atheists are Buddhists LOL! Wrong assumptions again. I think that you love making assumptions. :biggrin5: I said that we are bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs without even knowing it. What is sold to us is not as it is. I am not going to repeat myself but you may want to read my response to Paulclem. But the choice is yours if you want to know what I think. Please, don't make any assumptions....I may get a headache. ;)

[Varenne Rodin]

Well, the never ending war continues.LOL! People have been fighting to defend their religions for centuries. Today we have the same argument but it has changed its face. Atheists speak against religion. But if we can take a deeper look we may see that we have been bombarded with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs without ever noticing it. Atheists are not aware that they are not Atheists at all. :rofl:

Secondly, generalization is dangerous as it distorts the fact that everybody is unique. We can’t say that Christians, Buddhists, or Hindu are certain way. If people who invest so much energy in their argument about religions could step back and analyze their thoughts and feelings they would learn a big deal about themselves. The name of the game is personal growth. :ihih:

Atheists are not atheists at all? That's incorrect. Don't accuse me of making "wrong assumptions" when you are incapable of communicating clearly. We're bombarded with Buddhism? Atheists aren't atheists? Oh, but you can't be bothered to explain. We wouldn't understand the vast genius store of knowledge you have gathered. It would be insulting if it wasn't ridiculous.

[Paulclem]

Hehehe…it is impossible to elucidate in a few paragraphs. If you want to have a sense what I am talking about you may look at my Mythology and Religion tread as well as my blog. It is a tip of the iceberg as I don’t have time to elaborate it. But I also do it on purpose. I want to encourage people to do own research and those images should bring many questions.

I've had a look at the Mythology and religion thread where you have collected together images from different cultures/ religions and demonstrated that there are similarities between them. Presumably you are suggesting that this demonstrates an iconic link between the images and therefore ideas?

I don't see much commentary and explanation. Do the similarity of images point to a similarity of religious concepts in your view, or is it that they just have different meanings within each religion?

[ftil]

Atheists are not atheists at all? That's incorrect. Don't accuse me of making "wrong assumptions" when you are incapable of communicating clearly. We're bombarded with Buddhism? Atheists aren't atheists? Oh, but you can't be bothered to explain. We wouldn't understand the vast genius store of knowledge you have gathered. It would be insulting if it wasn't ridiculous.

Well, maybe you should step back and see that this is not I who can’t communicate but perhaps it is you who can’t understand. Secondly, I can promise you that one day when you are ready to do own research, you will be laughing at yourself and you will be angry at the same time. Sadly, you didn't read my response to Paulclem but misinterpreted my intentions. I think that we may end this discussion since it goes nowhere. :rofl:

[ftil]

I've had a look at the Mythology and religion thread where you have collected together images from different cultures/ religions and demonstrated that there are similarities between them. Presumably you are suggesting that this demonstrates an iconic link between the images and therefore ideas?

I don't see much commentary and explanation. Do the similarity of images point to a similarity of religious concepts in your view, or is it that they just have different meanings within each religion?

I avoid making comments as I don’t want to influence people what I think. Yes, there is a link between those images. But the images alone don’t tell the whole story. I needed to read and I still read and go back to those books again and again and make connections I coudn’ t do and see before. I look at those images many times. We can only see what we have learned. Human mind is quite fascinating but I wish it were easer since it is time consuming. I would say it is like finding one piece of a puzzle after another. M. P. Hall expressed quintessence of symbols as he said, “symbols reveal and conceal at the same time”.

[G L Wilson]

Well, maybe you should step back and see that this is not I who can’t communicate but perhaps it is you who can’t understand. Secondly, I can promise you that one day when you are ready to do own research, you will be laughing at yourself and you will be angry at the same time. Sadly, you didn't read my response to Paulclem but misinterpreted my intentions. I think that we may end this discussion since it goes nowhere. :rofl:

Varenne, do you not know your superior? Do you not know that he or she is far too good for the likes of us? My God, when are people going to learn respect for their betters? It's just not good enough.

[Drkshadow03]

I would say it is like finding one piece of a puzzle after another. M. P. Hall expressed quintessence of symbols as he said, “symbols reveal and conceal at the same time”.

Ah, yes. The guy who thinks (http://www.amazon.com/Freemasonry-Ancient-Egyptians-Manly-Palmer/dp/0893148032), "That the gods of Egypt were elements of a profound magical system and possessed a significance far different from that advanced by modern Egyptologists is certain. The various deities of the Nile valley were elements of an elaborate metaphysical system, a kind of ceremonial Cabbala."

[G L Wilson]

Ah, yes. The guy who thinks (http://www.amazon.com/Freemasonry-Ancient-Egyptians-Manly-Palmer/dp/0893148032), "That the gods of Egypt were elements of a profound magical system and possessed a significance far different from that advanced by modern Egyptologists is certain. The various deities of the Nile valley were elements of an elaborate metaphysical system, a kind of ceremonial Cabbala."

It stands to reason really, you only have to think about it. I have thought about it, and I have come to the conclusion that the moon is really a giant swiss cheese. Of course, it could be cheddar or some other sort of cheese but these are mere assumptions. It is really quite obvious when you think about it that the moon is a playground for mice. How could anyone deny it?

[Varenne Rodin]

Varenne, do you not know your superior? Do you not know that he or she is far too good for the likes of us? My God, when are people going to learn respect for their betters? It's just not good enough.

You're right, G L. Truly, mine is a fool's life. I'm like a wee babe, wandering aimlessly in the woods. Lost, stumbling around blindly in the dark, hoping I might suddenly bang into a magical faithsome epiphany. Will I ever see that divine light?

Hold! What's this? Can it be? Yes! YES! I see the light! Hahahaha. I see it so CLEARLY now! It burns. OH NO! IT BURNS! Help me, oh, won't ya?! Someone help! I want to educate myself about theism now! I must have forgot, that's all. I forgot to read the secret books! Help help. Woe is me. Woe is where I now and ever shall live. :(

Thanks everyone in advance for voting for me in the short story category.

If I hurt anyone's feelings with my darned fool life, I'm sorry. On a serious note, I love you.

[Varenne Rodin]

It stands to reason really, you only have to think about it. I have thought about it, and I have come to the conclusion that the moon is really a giant swiss cheese. Of course, it could be cheddar or some other sort of cheese but these are mere assumptions. It is really quite obvious when you think about it that the moon is a playground for mice. How could anyone deny it?

Well, see, that's wrong. Oh, man....how do I...

Look, you just don't know because I'm more advanced celestially. Care to know what happens? It's this: Jewish languages are code for a sphinx who...well, he doesn't jump, but he glides. Do you see what I'm saying? There's a ramp, and it is kind of stabilized, but it's stationary, so you can't...you're disinvited to go there. If you understood anything, you would shove forks into your skull and bark like a seal. Haha. It's so funny how you are dumb. :D

[ftil]

Ah, yes. The guy who thinks (http://www.amazon.com/Freemasonry-Ancient-Egyptians-Manly-Palmer/dp/0893148032), "That the gods of Egypt were elements of a profound magical system and possessed a significance far different from that advanced by modern Egyptologists is certain. The various deities of the Nile valley were elements of an elaborate metaphysical system, a kind of ceremonial Cabbala."

I don’t know what is your opinion about M.P.Hall. I personally don’t trust him and don't take his writing seriously as well as Madame Blavatsky's teaching. However, they both gave me some important clues for my research. I am afraid it was not their intentions. :rofl:

[Vonny]

Yes....yes, there are. However, there are just as many, of not more among the other groups. Just because there are more Christians around it seems like there are more Christian bullies....it only takes a few....don't judge the rest of us due to THOSE morons.


I'm confused as to why so many people around me get divorced and are looking for another lady, and can speak proudly and openly about it, but my brother and his partner must hide who they are.

It's something I really wonder about but I don't ask people where I live. I'm not sure if it's okay to ask the question anonymously or not.

Edit: Separated soon to be divorced.

[BienvenuJDC]

I'm confused as to why so many people around me get divorced and are looking for another lady, and can speak proudly and openly about it, but my brother and his partner must hide who they are.

It's something I really wonder about but I don't ask people where I live. I'm not sure if it's okay to ask the question anonymously or not.

Edit: Separated soon to be divorced.

I wonder the same thing about why people are so quick to end their marriages. I'm soon to be divorced because my wife had an affair and left me. I don't wish to get a divorce, but it's completely out of my hands at this point. As far as your brother goes...I don't care. If you want to ask me how I may feel about such circumstances personally, I'll gladly share that with anyone in a private conversation.

Did you have a point for this post? How does it apply to the thread?

[BienvenuJDC]

It's amazing how much fighting there has been in a thread originally posted to get us to stop fighting.

[Vonny]

I was just curious about your thinking.

[Paulclem]

You talk about Buddhist concept of consciousness but it is a first layer what this religion is all about.

So which Buddhist teacher have you studied with? Or did you you follow a particular tradition, or attend a paticular school? Or did you study it as a comparative religion?

[Vonny]

As far as your brother goes...I don't care. If you want to ask me how I may feel about such circumstances personally, I'll gladly share that with anyone in a private conversation.


I don't have private conversations online.

I'm Christian, perhaps a bit confused, but most definitely Christian.

I wonder how you feel about me.

I know how Neely feels about me. I don't know if he's Christian due to his Oscar Wilde picture, but he warms my heart. I just wonder how you feel about me.

[ftil]

So which Buddhist teacher have you studied with? Or did you you follow a particular tradition, or attend a paticular school? Or did you study it as a comparative religion?

I didn’t follow any teaching; I just studied it. There were a number of teachers. I have only stayed for a couple of months with Nichiren Buddhism, a branch of Mahāyāna Buddhism, but left. I am not a person who can follow any religious practice and Nichiren practice was mind blowing. I am reading about Kalachakra Tantra, Dalai Lama's religion, now.

[stlukesguild]

Now Vonny... what's wrong about good ol' Oscar? You surely know that he was never wrong about anything?:nod:

I would also beware of judging the person posting from his or her avatar. I used to use Runens' portrait of his sister-in-law, Susanna Fourment...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6128/6042240471_8e0351de11_z.jpg

... until one too many members assumed I was a "she".

Now I use a lovely Roman bust of Antinoös...

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/6042254221_4274626039_z.jpg

... but I can assure you that I am neither a Pagan nor anybody's "pretty boy". I only chose the image because of my love of art and art history... (although member Mortal Terror might question my choice considering my known ambivalence toward Roman art) and because I actually looked quite a bit like this sculpture when I was 18... but now I'm probably far closer to Caracalla in both looks an temperament. :biggrin5:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6131/6042813580_46ae35e9c5_z.jpg

Unfortunately, Caracalla seems to have held onto his hair better than I... then again... I've held onto my head longer than he (who lost his in a most unsavory manner). Perhaps its time for an Avatar switch... hmmmmm?

[BienvenuJDC]

I don't have private conversations online.

I'm Christian, perhaps a bit confused, but most definitely Christian.

I wonder how you feel about me.

I know how Neely feels about me. I don't know if he's Christian due to his Oscar Wilde picture, but he warms my heart. I just wonder how you feel about me.

I honestly don't have an opinion (or any particular feeling) since I don't know you. What are the things that you are confused about? I myself have drifted in and out of confusion about things. I've studied and lived and tried to combine that which I have learned from both areas (studying and living). Not all things are clear cut, but I respect the notion of those who admit that they don't have all the answers, because I surely don't. I also have discovered that those who act as if they know all the answers (whether they are Christian, of other non-christian religions, atheist, agnostic, or other) are usually those who fall short in knowledge.

Feel free to get o know me (in whatever way you feel comfortable), and I'll rest assured that I'll do my best not to draw conclusions about you that are not merited.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

StLukes, you switching your avatar would turn my world upside down.

[cl154576]

It's amazing how much fighting there has been in a thread originally posted to get us to stop fighting.

Ways to get people to stop fighting:

-close this thread
-censor this site
-kill, jail, or blackmail everyone
-reverse human nature
-pray to God

That's all I can think of right now.

[Paulclem]

I didn’t follow any teaching; I just studied it. There were a number of teachers. I have only stayed for a couple of months with Nichiren Buddhism, a branch of Mahāyāna Buddhism, but left. I am not a person who can follow any religious practice and Nichiren practice was mind blowing. I am reading about Kalachakra Tantra, Dalai Lama's religion, now.

I see. So how did you come to a clear appraisal of the Buddhist concept of consciousness?

[Paulclem]

StLukes, you switching your avatar would turn my world upside down.

For quite a while I thought St Lukes was a she. :)

It is funny how we picture associate the random avatars.

[cl154576]

Yes ... maybe I will try making one. edit: how is it?

[ftil]

I see. So how did you come to a clear appraisal of the Buddhist concept of consciousness?

I started to question it when I studied Transpersonal psychology. I look at it as another theory and I believe that any theory is useless if I can’t experience it. Secondly, when I read Stanislav Grof’s theory I seriously questioned his explanation of spiritual crises. Thank you very much for that kind of experience. :biggrin5:

[G L Wilson]

If free thought was respected as religion is, I'd have nothing to say.

[MarkBastable]

It's amazing how much fighting there has been in a thread originally posted to get us to stop fighting.


We're not fighting. We're arguing - which is pretty harmless really.

[literary lew]

It means to be humble. It means to recognize that at best we only have one perspective on Ultimate Being and that others will likely conceptualize this experience differently than you do. But it is much more pleasurable to know that your perception is "right."

[CarolC]

For me, it means being assertive of your own beliefs while allowing others what to believe. Unfortunately, today's society cannot tell the difference between good-natured assertiveness and selfish aggression. And remember that free speech also exposes people as the jerks they are whether they are theistic or non-theistic.

Yes, you can laugh at others if you like (I am a fan of South Park). But keep it healthy and remember that others who believe differently are people too. (In other words, be capable of apology or sincerely explaining your intentions while being aware of the other's emotions).

If something unhealthy like murder, homophobia, and sacrifice, or other clearly violent act is involved, then intervene immediately (especially in the case of the recent shootings and terrorism attacks).

For me, no one is immune to jerkishness whether one lacks belief or has belief.

[G L Wilson]

To respect another one must have a sense of humour.

[Paulclem]

To respect another one must have a sense of humour.

Agreed.

There's a lot to be said for a sense of humour - so long as the other person thinks it's funny too. Then it's not a sense of humour but something else masquerading as a sense of humour.

[G L Wilson]

Agreed.

There's a lot to be said for a sense of humour - so long as the other person thinks it's funny too. Then it's not a sense of humour but something else masquerading as a sense of humour.

Humourless people are a curse.

[kensington]

"....I would be uneasy , because I've never met them before and all I know is stereotypes..."

That's pretty much a dictionary definition of prejudice.


Gosh, have you read your dictionary lately?

[Theunderground]

I think this is very hard to define in abstracto. One must play the situation and person 'by ear' and then try to ascertain whether said person is feeling disrespected. The thing about restrictions on free-speech is that the person temporarily 'silenced' still holds the same views,and now you dont know that he is a bigot/racist etc.

[ralfyman]

The texts and ideas may be discussed in the same way as commentary found in comparative religion, literary analysis, history, and similar texts.