Elitism in books

[G L Wilson]

I am not expected to understand Spanish or Russian, why then am I expected to understand French or Latin or German?

If there are elitisms beside this elitism to discuss, please discuss them.

[Drkshadow03]

I am not expected to understand Spanish or Russian, why then am I expected to understand French or Latin or German?

If there are elitisms beside this elitism to discuss, please discuss them.

Who expects you to understand French, Latin or German?

[OrphanPip]

My French teachers used to expect me to understand French, snobs.

[G L Wilson]

Who expects you to understand French, Latin or German?

Scholars with pretensions.

[Drkshadow03]

Scholars with pretensions.

I know, I hate all those Tolstoy and Dostoevsky scholars who insist everyone learn German instead of Russian, pretentious bastards!

[LitNetIsGreat]

Sigh, running out of 'contentious' issues?

[Alexander III]

The sad thing is, a lot of your threads would make great threads for good discussion; but the way you open them up and present them, they seem more like trolling than proper threads.

If you expanded on what you were saying so that people could understand what you mean, and did not sound so snobbish and pretentious about it, this could have made a good thread.

[Emil Miller]

Sigh, running out of 'contentious' issues?

Now, now Neely, you know that G. L. Wilson ( why does that name seem so appropriate?) will never run out of contentious issues.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

The sad thing is, a lot of your threads would make great threads for good discussion; but the way you open them up and present them, they seem more like trolling than proper threads.

If you expanded on what you were saying so that people could understand what you mean, and did not sound so snobbish and pretentious about it, this could have made a good thread.
This.

[Drkshadow03]

The sad thing is, a lot of your threads would make great threads for good discussion; but the way you open them up and present them, they seem more like trolling than proper threads.

If you expanded on what you were saying so that people could understand what you mean, and did not sound so snobbish and pretentious about it, this could have made a good thread.

That's just what someone who wants everyone to speak German and Latin would say!!!!

[stlukesguild]

The audacity of that Goethe expecting me to read German when he could have written in English.

[Delta40]

ha ha! I can sing Old MacDonald in Italian. Does that make me an elite?

[G L Wilson]

ha ha! I can sing Old MacDonald in Italian. Does that make me an elite?

If you made me listen to it, it would.

[Delta40]

If you made me listen to it, it would.

I think the issue is more why are students compelled to learn a second language at school while realistic topics in home economics and family are purely optional? All of us will be faced with developing our life skills but few will ever need to use Indonesian!

[G L Wilson]

I think the issue is more why are students compelled to learn a second language at school while realistic topics in home economics and family are purely optional? All of us will be faced with developing our life skills but few will ever need to use Indonesian!

Justin Bieber wants to learn French, he reckons it will attract the birds (women).

[Stanislaw]

My French teachers used to expect me to understand French, snobs.

HA, I know! I could never stand for such snobbery! I skipped all those filthy bourgeois classes!! (its amazing I actually graduated considering french 30 was a requirement heh heh :D )


Justin Bieber wants to learn French, he reckons it will attract the birds (women).

:rolleyes5: He is the master tool, ruler of toolandia, fresh from the forges of tooledor. heh, I don't think learning french will change that. :lol:

[cl154576]

All of us will be faced with developing our life skills but few will ever need to use Indonesian!

Indonesian isn't offered in most schools – in my area it's mandatory Spanish in second and third grades; Spanish or Chinese in fourth and fifth; Spanish, Chinese, French, or German in sixth through eighth; and in high school, the same with Latin added to the list.

How they came up with the order escapes me.

[G L Wilson]

Indonesian isn't offered in most schools – in my area it's mandatory Spanish in second and third grades; Spanish or Chinese in fourth and fifth; Spanish, Chinese, French, or German in sixth through eighth; and in high school, the same with Latin added to the list.

How they came up with the order escapes me.

It all sounds like a lot of hard work that somebody else can do, not me. I have enough trouble with common English, thanks.

[Delta40]

Indonesian isn't offered in most schools – in my area it's mandatory Spanish in second and third grades; Spanish or Chinese in fourth and fifth; Spanish, Chinese, French, or German in sixth through eighth; and in high school, the same with Latin added to the list.

How they came up with the order escapes me.

Regardless of what the language is, my main point is that it is mandatory.

[cl154576]

Regardless of what the language is, my main point is that it is mandatory.

As for that, in my district they advertise things about globalization and the job markets in other countries (a nice way of saying America is outsourcing a lot of its jobs).

They imagine, apparently, that a few years of fooling around in class will enable us to work in another country.

[G L Wilson]

Music used to be mandatory. I played the triangle.

[Delta40]

As for that, in my district they advertise things about globalization and the job markets in other countries (a nice way of saying America is outsourcing a lot of its jobs).

They imagine, apparently, that a few years of fooling around in class will enable us to work in another country.

ever heard of 'if you don't use it, you lose it'? That's why I can only remember Old MacDonald in Italian because I SANG IT TO A TRIANGLE! :lol:

[Calidore]

Music used to be mandatory. I played the triangle.

I'll do the jug. Washboard, anyone?

[Arrowni]

Elitism gives you a sense of entitlement to an object or a group. Elitist cannot probably get why would you rather be in a different group than theirs, since theirs is the best one evaar.

About languages: There are a very few uses for a language. I remember meeting a girl who knew turkish, but never spoke it with a turkish native who lived with her. They just didn't like each other.

[Alexander III]

Im sorry to post but this, but once Germany and Justin Beiber are mentioned in the same thread, this video shall always come up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75nDvFSHCBc

[JCamilo]

Odeio essas elites que insistem em usar uma languagem que não a minha.

[Alexander III]

Odeio essas elites que insistem em usar uma languagem que não a minha.

Si, gli anglofoni sono gli più ignoranti di tutti, e si pure lamentano che il resto del mondo non impara la loro lingua. Gli veri etilisti sono le persone tropo pigre per imparare almeno due lingue. Etilismo in questo caso e legato alla ignoranza e stupidita.

Lo so che te ai parlato in portoghese, ma se ognuno parla nella su lingua madre e più bello per dimostrare il nostro punto in questa thread.

[G L Wilson]

Si, gli anglofoni sono gli più ignoranti di tutti, e si pure lamentano che il resto del mondo non impara la loro lingua. Gli veri etilisti sono le persone tropo pigre per imparare almeno due lingue. Etilismo in questo caso e legato alla ignoranza e stupidita.

Lo so che te ai parlato in portoghese, ma se ognuno parla nella su lingua madre e più bello per dimostrare il nostro punto in questa thread.

Would you pair of twits mind letting us in on the conversation?

[kiki1982]

You see if you had learnt French (or Spanish possibly), you would have understood what those two are saying (like me).

The bastards! How could they expect anyone to learn another language! It is simply disgusting!

Ever thought of the snobbery of letting people learn yours because of your own inadequacy on the subject?

[edit] But, oh yes, we translators are very grateful to all of you monolingual people. We namely get a lot of work because the most trivial things should be translated as not a dicky bird can understand them. Great. Earns us a lot of money, and it is easy because most of the time it is just plain and simple. Would it be strange that there is more work French/German/Dutch to English than all of those to Dutch?

[Drkshadow03]

Would you pair of twits mind letting us in on the conversation?

Only elitists would expect you to take five seconds to open up Google translator.

[G L Wilson]

You see if you had learnt French (or Spanish possibly), you would have understood what those two are saying (like me).

The bastards! How could they expect anyone to learn another language! It is simply disgusting!

Ever thought of the snobbery of letting people learn yours because of your own inadequacy on the subject?

[edit] But, oh yes, we translators are very grateful to all of you monolingual people. We namely get a lot of work because the most trivial things should be translated as not a dicky bird can understand them. Great. Earns us a lot of money, and it is easy because most of the time it is just plain and simple. Would it be strange that there is more work French/German/Dutch to English than all of those to Dutch?

Yeah, you're not elitist?

[JCamilo]

If you ask that in german, he may answer you.

Oh, sorry. Eu estava usando uma meia furada hoje.

[stlukesguild]

Would you pair of twits mind letting us in on the conversation?

You call them twits and yet you are the one too stupid to be able to grasp another language... and you embrace that fact as if it were something to be proud of... on a literature site, no less. What about simply employing an online translation program? But then again, you might need to actually recognize what language you are dealing with. Hell, I can't read Italian, but I can muddle through enough of that post to get the gist of it.

[Alexander III]

Would you pair of twits mind letting us in on the conversation?


In the time it took you to write that post you could have used google translate like most others. You have effectively proven my point in regards to what an elitist is.

[cl154576]

In the time it took you to write that post you could have used google translate like most others. You have effectively proven my point in regards to what an elitist is.

Google Translate isn't perfect.
I pretty much understood your post, but for JCamilo it said "I was stuck using half today" which does not make sense to me.

[cl154576]

请你们看一看，那网站把我打的这几句话翻成了什么。
我读着觉得非常好笑。

[JCamilo]

Google Translate isn't perfect.
I pretty much understood your post, but for JCamilo it said "I was stuck using half today" which does not make sense to me.

Nooo, really? :lol:

E você acha que usei expressões que causam ruído sem um plano prévio?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Google Translate isn't perfect.
I pretty much understood your post, but for JCamilo it said "I was stuck using half today" which does not make sense to me.
Haha, yeah, I wasn't sure what he meant by that either, or, rather, what he meant by what Google Translator said he said.

And, StLukes, you don't even have to know what language it is with Google Translator, it recognizes it for you. Huzzah!

Edit: I think J is screwing with us. Damn you JCamilo!

[cl154576]

Nooo, really? :lol:

E você acha que usei expressões que causam ruído sem um plano prévio?

No. Not really. I had an idea you checked it.

它很傻。总喜欢把打翻译成玩或者弹。
这句也翻译的非常差。

[Drkshadow03]

What language would you recommend I learn and for what reason? Bonus points if the language is elitist. Can't be Latin.

[G L Wilson]

In the time it took you to write that post you could have used google translate like most others. You have effectively proven my point in regards to what an elitist is.

You have proven my point. You feel intellectually superior to me. I am ignorant of other languages than English. I have not your education. Therefore, you are a genius and am a peasant.

[David Lurie]

Etilismo

indeed! when Italians are drunk they speak Italian the way you wrote it :cheers2:

[JBI]

No. Not really. I had an idea you checked it.

它很傻。总喜欢把打翻译成玩或者弹。
这句也翻译的非常差。

没问题吧，我自己会做翻译：p

事實上，那個谷歌翻譯對幾種語言的翻譯效果並不錯。對於中文來說，還算差呀。


And for those who are confused, well, tough :p

This is fun actually, I got the Italian no problem the Portuguese is tricky but I can break through it just looking for cognates and the Chinese is fun.

[JBI]

What language would you recommend I learn and for what reason? Bonus points if the language is elitist. Can't be Latin.

Classical Chinese. Even more snobby than Latin.

[JBI]

Wow, that Google translate really butchers Chinese. As for elitism - the majority of the world has some degree of bilingualism. In general, English native speakers are often accused of being the most monolingual people in the world. As for being able to read and understand, or it being assumed, well, the one with one language is impoverished in all others. One of the things that shames me about this country is the lack of bilingualism within a certain class of Canadians, namely, only knowing one of our national languages.

Most of us are bilingual at least, but still one should know French, and one should know English here, especially if they are involved in any sort of public service job.

As for learning French, and speaking it, French is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to learn, to me it makes Chinese look like a piece of cake. But still, I see why it is relevant. It isn't about elitism, it is about understanding that there are things in this world beyond your own back yard that matter, and to really understand things, language is perhaps the best approach - language is connected with commerce, with culture, with politics, with everything, and it is harder and harder to ignore the outside world.

[cl154576]

I have not your education. Therefore, you are a genius and am a peasant.

I think most graduate school graduates working white-collar jobs feel superior to jobless high-school dropouts. Morally, of course, there's no way of generalizing superiority, and the second group probably has a wealth of experiences unknown to the first; but it is a common thing for the educated to feel superior to the uneducated.

I probably have the lowest level of education here ...

[tonywalt]

"experientia docet" latin for experience teaches applies here.

Kidding!

[stlukesguild]

What language would you recommend I learn and for what reason? Bonus points if the language is elitist. Can't be Latin.

Wasn't it you who had done a good deal of study in Farsi and Persian literature? I find that more impressive than Latin.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

JBI, why is French so hard? I ask because I'm taking it this coming semester.

[Alexander III]

indeed! when Italians are drunk they speak Italian the way you wrote it :cheers2:

Haha woops didnt I notice that horrible mistake - ti asicuro che non ero ubriaco, solo affaticato dopo una lunga giornata al mare. Anche te sei Italiano, e bello scoprire dei compatrioti su questo sito.



Wow, that Google translate really butchers Chinese. As for elitism - the majority of the world has some degree of bilingualism. In general, English native speakers are often accused of being the most monolingual people in the world. As for being able to read and understand, or it being assumed, well, the one with one language is impoverished in all others. One of the things that shames me about this country is the lack of bilingualism within a certain class of Canadians, namely, only knowing one of our national languages.

Most of us are bilingual at least, but still one should know French, and one should know English here, especially if they are involved in any sort of public service job.

As for learning French, and speaking it, French is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to learn, to me it makes Chinese look like a piece of cake. But still, I see why it is relevant. It isn't about elitism, it is about understanding that there are things in this world beyond your own back yard that matter, and to really understand things, language is perhaps the best approach - language is connected with commerce, with culture, with politics, with everything, and it is harder and harder to ignore the outside world.


Wow, how different such things for all of us - for me french was an incredibly easy language to learn; but I once tried mandarin and I found it brutal back in school. However I think the hardest european language is German, at least with french everything sounds delightful like wine and candy, in german it sounds like you are strangling a moose.


I am ignorant of other languages than English. I have not your education. Therefore, you are a genius and am a peasant.


Well that is how human society has functioned for the last 7000 years and that is how it will continue to function till it ends. There are two layers of society. Before the rich and educated were always the same, now fortunately one does not have to be born into a good family to become educated.

But nonetheless society remains divided in two - those who are rich and/or educated and those that are not rich or educated.

The former are the ones who make most decisions and have the power, the latter are the modern day equivalent of peasant for the former.

One merely needs to look at 2008 till now in America and Europe, to see how the former are the ones who have guided society and the latter have little say in the matter, even when it leads to their great suffering. I wont get more specific than that to avoid getting political.

[kiki1982]

I don't know about French. I once heard an English teacher who had lived in Belgium for years and spoke French fluently, say that French was the easiest at first, but the only language that atually got more difficult the further you got. German she deemed difficult at first but getting easier as you went along.

I think I agree with that analysis. German is incredibly hard once you start (certainly if you are not Dutch-speaking), but it gets easier. Rules are rules, there are nearly no exceptions. If you know your grammar, you basically know how to construct a sentence, and the rest will come. I don't quite agree that German is not beautiful. In fact I would say that a well-written, well-flowing text in German is perfect. I would think it is difficult to actually copy it in any other language. It just does not have the same calm and melodious ring to it. I don't know, to take an image... Somtimes it feels to me like a calm little river glistening in the sun in a wood. (getting incredibly romantic here...)

French is a great big pot of mish-mash rules with a million exceptions and another incredible amount of unwritten rules to do with style. There are a few basic ones which have no exceptions, but the main thing you have to do to master the language is read, read, read, then you get a feel for it and thus you start to know better about how a Frenchman, Canadian would say what you want to say rather than how it would be gramatically correct and too clean.

Though I would say English is probably the most underrated language. It takes you off-guard. It is incredibly easy in the beginning and that is what makes it tricky. You think you can do it and [buzzer] your text is full of style mistakes. And no rules to guide you. You can say an incredible lot in English with two words. German would need 20 and French probably 10.

[Drkshadow03]

What language would you recommend I learn and for what reason? Bonus points if the language is elitist. Can't be Latin.

Wasn't it you who had done a good deal of study in Farsi and Persian literature? I find that more impressive than Latin.

Me? Nope.

[Emil Miller]

I don't know about French. I once heard an English teacher who had lived in Belgium for years and spoke French fluently, say that French was the easiest at first, but the only language that atually got more difficult the further you got. German she deemed difficult at first but getting easier as you went along.

I think I agree with that analysis. German is incredibly hard once you start (certainly if you are not Dutch-speaking), but it gets easier. Rules are rules, there are nearly no exceptions. If you know your grammar, you basically know how to construct a sentence, and the rest will come. I don't quite agree that German is not beautiful. In fact I would say that a well-written, well-flowing text in German is perfect. I would think it is difficult to actually copy it in any other language. It just does not have the same calm and melodious ring to it. I don't know, to take an image... Somtimes it feels to me like a calm little river glistening in the sun in a wood. (getting incredibly romantic here...)

French is a great big pot of mish-mash rules with a million exceptions and another incredible amount of unwritten rules to do with style. There are a few basic ones which have no exceptions, but the main thing you have to do to master the language is read, read, read, then you get a feel for it and thus you start to know better about how a Frenchman, Canadian would say what you want to say rather than how it would be gramatically correct and too clean.

Though I would say English is probably the most underrated language. It takes you off-guard. It is incredibly easy in the beginning and that is what makes it tricky. You think you can do it and [buzzer] your text is full of style mistakes. And no rules to guide you. You can say an incredible lot in English with two words. German would need 20 and French probably 10.

Lieutenant-General Sir Brian Horrocks, one of the British army's most senior officers, once said that the German army was a military machine run by technocrats while the British army was a peasant army commanded by aristocrats. This is reflected in their languages where the German case system forces the user to obey rules which the English dispensed with centuries ago. This gives a mechanical aspect to German which is alien to certain non Germanic related people, and even to the English who are, but who, for historical reasons, have absorbed a number of French linguistic
devices. French is easier to learn than German but not easy to speak whereas German speech is not at all difficult.
In truth there is no need for a born English speaker to learn a foreign language unless it is as a translator/interpreter or for the purpose of reading foreign literature in the original. The second language of most countries is usually English which, for better or worse, is the international language.

[stlukesguild]

Me? Nope.

My bad. It might have been Kafka'sCrow.

[kiki1982]

Lieutenant-General Sir Brian Horrocks, one of the British army's most senior officers, once said that the German army was a military machine run by technocrats while the British army was a peasant army commanded by aristocrats. This is reflected in their languages where the German case system forces the user to obey rules which the English dispensed with centuries ago. This gives a mechanical aspect to German which is alien to certain non Germanic related people, and even to the English who are, but who, for historical reasons, have absorbed a number of French linguistic
devices. French is easier to learn than German but not easy to speak whereas German speech is not at all difficult.
In truth there is no need for a born English speaker to learn a foreign language unless it is as a translator/interpreter or for the purpose of reading foreign literature in the original. The second language of most countries is usually English which, for better or worse, is the international language.

Of course, the Germans are ruthlessly efficient, but I dont see what that has got to do with their language. Their language is much older than their military machine. For an incredibly long time their 'empire' was a range of city states that clubbed together. Their language wasn't disorganised.
Indeed German speech is less difficult than German on paper, but I would not say it is 'easier' per se. Paying attention to all the cases while you are speaking is very tiring. And while German is a very mechanical language ('you vill put your direct opbject first and zen your indirect object and zen only vill you put your adverbial, and zen, if appropriate you vill put ze negation!'), in its mechanics there can be sparkly bits you can't copy however much you try.

Where French is unruly, as is English probaby indeed because of French influence (although we could maybe use Lokasenna's knowledge of Saxon and Celtic in this case), it has a different kind of freedom to German. German is great in sound, sentence construction and imagery; French and English are great in plays on words.

And yes, nearly all countries have English for their second language, but that is no reason for the few English-speaking countries to be complacent and let it go. Knowing French would make them spell better and they would be more culturally aware of any culture if they were just to take the trouble.

[Emil Miller]

Of course, the Germans are ruthlessly efficient, but I dont see what that has got to do with their language. Their language is much older than their military machine. For an incredibly long time their 'empire' was a range of city states that clubbed together. Their language wasn't disorganised.
Indeed German speech is less difficult than German on paper, but I would not say it is 'easier' per se. Paying attention to all the cases while you are speaking is very tiring. And while German is a very mechanical language ('you vill put your direct opbject first and zen your indirect object and zen only vill you put your adverbial, and zen, if appropriate you vill put ze negation!'), in its mechanics there can be sparkly bits you can't copy however much you try.

Where French is unruly, as is English probaby indeed because of French influence (although we could maybe use Lokasenna's knowledge of Saxon and Celtic in this case), it has a different kind of freedom to German. German is great in sound, sentence construction and imagery; French and English are great in plays on words.

And yes, nearly all countries have English for their second language, but that is no reason for the few English-speaking countries to be complacent and let it go. Knowing French would make them spell better and they would be more culturally aware of any culture if they were just to take the trouble.

There is a connection between language and national characteristics which is often lampooned in portraying Germans as being precise and stolid in their speech patterns or the French being excessively expressive in theirs and the Italians are sometimes portrayed as being over excitable when speaking. Of course these are caricatures that have as much to do with language groups as individual nations but I think it is true to some degree.
You are right about the mechanical nature of German grammar and the example you have given is very good, and while it is tiresome to have to remember the case endings, in time they become second nature in normal everyday speech if not in the technical language used in engineering manuals and scientific publications.
I don't see anything elitist in learning a foreign language, anyone can do it, but there are no short cuts and it requires time and application plus a total conviction that you really want to do it.

[G L Wilson]

The use of untranslated foreign text within books written in English is a pretension, there is no need for it.

[cl154576]

The use of untranslated foreign text within books written in English is a pretension, there is no need for it.

I prefer when they keep the untranslated sections but have an asterisk or a footnote explaining what it means. For instance, Tolstoy sometimes uses French symbolically.

[Alexander III]

The use of untranslated foreign text within books written in English is a pretension, there is no need for it.

Dont you think the pretension is asking for the text to be distorted from its original language into another language ?

[G L Wilson]

I would rather have a distortion of a language that I don't understand than no translation at all.

[stlukesguild]

I prefer when they keep the untranslated sections but have an asterisk or a footnote explaining what it means. For instance, Tolstoy sometimes uses French symbolically.

Tolstoy uses French... especially in War and Peace... just as Twain uses native American vernacular. It is a means of furthering the portrayal of the characters. French was commonly spoken among the aristocrats and educated classes in Russia at the time of the Napoleonic Wars... and it would be presumed that to great majority of the literate classes who would be reading Tolstoy, French was still commonly the lingua franca... Essentially, it was, what English has become.

[stlukesguild]

Don't you think the pretension is asking for the text to be distorted from its original language into another language?

Authors write for an audience that they imagine as being not unlike themselves. Dante, Shakespeare, and James Joyce all wrote employing a language, vocabulary, and allusions far beyond the grasp of the average inexperienced reader. Tolstoy's readers would have quite likely been quite familiar with French at a time in which French culture was the dominating culture of Europe, and the French language was the lingua franca.

All languages... especially English... make frequent use of words and phrases "borrowed" from other languages and left untranslated: lingua franca, Ménage à trois, tête-à-tête, Au revoir, S'il vous plaît, Excusez-moi, à la carte, à la mode, au contraire, adieu, avant-garde, bon appétit, bric-à-brac, bonjour, raison d'être, sauté, s'il vous plaît, silhouette, tour de force, touché, voyeur, mélange, laissez-faire, liason, au naturel, and famously Voulez-vous coucher avec moi... ce soir?

There are similar "borrowings" from German, Russian, Spanish, Latin, Native American, Indian, Japanese, and any language that came into contact with the English-speaking world.

[Alexander III]

I would rather have a distortion of a language that I don't understand than no translation at all.

I dont think I have ever come across a book, which when quoting in a foreign language - did not have a rough translation in the back somewhere. Unless of course the book was specifically designed for the bi-lingual.

[cl154576]

I dont think I have ever come across a book, which when quoting in a foreign language - did not have a rough translation in the back somewhere. Unless of course the book was specifically designed for the bi-lingual.

I've come across a lot, and from very reliable editions too.
It frustrates me.

[JBI]

I've come across a lot, and from very reliable editions too.
It frustrates me.

Orientalism Edward Said.