Emergence

[Red-Headed]

Brave little flowers
emerging through pavement cracks -
traffic just roars by.

[Twota]

Love it!

[Red-Headed]

Thanks.

[Jack of Hearts]

Comes up just short of poetry for this reader- but you're knocking on the door...





J

[Red-Headed]

Comes up just short of poetry for this reader- but you're knocking on the door...





J

You do realise it's a haiku, right?

[Jack of Hearts]

Well, that it resembles one, anyways.





J

[Delta40]

methinks that haiku
lacks a certain quality
for poem lovers

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, that it resembles one, anyways.





J
What does it need that it doesn't have? Syllables go 5-7-5, so how does it only resemble a haiku?

[Delta40]

What does it need that it doesn't have? Syllables go 5-7-5, so how does it only resemble a haiku?

The content fails to evoke anything meaningful

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Yeah, but even so, it doesn't make it any less of a haiku. I'm just saying so on a technical level--I don't get what Jack meant.

[Delta40]

Yeah, but even so, it doesn't make it any less of a haiku. I'm just saying so on a technical level--I don't get what Jack meant.

It's like building a car without an engine. Sure it looks like one but it doesn't do what a car is supposed to do. I can't speak for JoH of course.

[MystyrMystyry]

I love your haikus!

Here's some I've written:


A Tin Of Baked Beans

A tin of
baked beans!


The Cabbage

The cabbage...


and my personal favorite-


Computer Keyboard

C
o
m
p
u
t
e
r

K
e
y
b
o
a
r
d

[Delta40]

As Manual from Fawlty Towers would say, 'Che?'

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Leave it to MM to confuse the hell out of me, but in a good way. :)

[Red-Headed]

Well, that it resembles one, anyways.





J

If I could speak Japanese I would have written it in Japanese. I am English & have a Midlands accent. I write the way I speak. The accent was good enough for Shakespeare, I was actually born not that far from Stratford.

You can argue the case for senryu/haiku & whatever for ever, I even have a blog about this very subject here.

I'm glad it resembles a haiku anyway. :smilewinkgrin:

[Red-Headed]

As Manual from Fawlty Towers would say, 'Che?'

Yes, but did he write the manual on haiku? :crazy:

[Red-Headed]

methinks that haiku
lacks a certain quality
for poem lovers

Methinks haiku, tanka & senryu forms have had a huge impact on early 20th century Imagism & contributed greatly to the Imagist manifesto & the like originally published by Frank Stuart Flint:

1/ Direct treatment of the "thing", whether subjective or objective.

2/ To use absolutely no word that does not contribute to the presentation.

3/ As regarding rhythm: to compose in sequence of the musical phrase, not in sequence of the metronome.

~ March issue of Poetry 1911.

Methinks well, if it was good enough for T.S. Eliot & Ezra Pound (il miglior fabbro), James Joyce, Hilda Doolittle inter alios it's good enough for me.

Methinks that I am a huge fan of traditional poets like Basho, Issa, Lady Sute-Jo & also many of the contemporary Zen poets. I find haiku very rewarding & poetically valid.

Me-also-thinks De gustibus non est disputandum!

[Red-Headed]

The content fails to evoke anything meaningful

It does to me, apparently it does for others ... De gustibus ... or sour grapes?

[Delta40]

It does to me, apparently it does for others ... De gustibus ... or sour grapes?

Merely my opinion. Methinks you can think whatever you like and defend haiku as you will, it doesn't matter to me. :ack2:

[Red-Headed]

It's like building a car without an engine.

No it isn't. That isn't even a good analogy.


Sure it looks like one but it doesn't do what a car is supposed to do.

I think that you have failed to understand what the essence of haiku actually is. It is not a narrative poetic form & has its roots in Taoist & Zen philosophy.

Here, I have written a bit about the subject:

Haiku, the very name seems to jump out at you! That fricative 'k' sounds almost like some foreign object has been lodged in one's throat a while & finally removes itself. After practising Karate & Ju Jutsu for many years I almost seem to say it with a 'Ki Ai' spirit shout.

Its origin as many people know is in twelfth century Japan. Between 794 & 1185 CE in what is referred to as the Heian period the 'Tanka' (a structure of 5-7-5-7-7 syllables) was the predominant verse form to be found in Japanese courts. Towards the end of this period linked verses of alternating syllables known as 'Renga' started to proliferate.

These gave way to linked seventeen syllable forms which then gave rise to the single Haiku we know & love. Later the great master of Haiku, Matsuo Basho (1644-94 CE) perfected the form.

Many people think that Haiku have to be about nature or at least seasonal. This has never been strictly true. Traditionally they have always had a Zen influence & can be about such themes as 'mysticism', 'loneliness', or even 'poverty'. In fact today you can write Haiku about anything if you like.

There is a Zen story possibly originally a Taoist story that I have always liked. In China many years ago there was a contest to paint the most beautiful temple. When all of the entries had been submitted & examined the winner was decided. The winning picture was of a monk staring into a misty outline of a temple from a bridge! The temple was just too beautiful to paint & therefore had to be imagined.

Maybe there is a lesson here for those aficionados of the Haiku. The real trick is to capture a snapshot of reality (or not reality) in a jpeg of literature in seventeen syllables. People often claim the form looks childlike sometimes. However I think that immediate simplicity is the hardest thing to capture. The influence of the Haiku on many of the 'Imagist' poets can be easily seen. The simplicity & sheer naturalness was copied by poets such as Ezra Pound, James Joyce & Hilda Doolittle (HD).

The decisive cause for this post was the reaction that I got to enquiring why there is a perceived (or otherwise) difference between the haiku form & the senryu. The fact that my spell checker doesn’t even recognise the word ‘senryu’ is interesting in itself. I was beginning to think it may actually be a form indigenous to the continental United States. Webster’s dictionary only notes that the first recorded usage in American English was in 1965.

It turns out that the Edo era Japanese poet Karai Hachiemon gave it the appellation after his own pen-name; ‘River Willow’. It was a development of the haiku but often without the Taoist inspired reference to nature.

I am not sure why it has not caught on in my country more. This perceived, possibly cultural difference has been (& still is) most intriguing to me.

The ultimate origin of Zen poetry seems to have begun with the T’ang through Sung dynasties of China (CE 618-1279). The Sanskrit ‘Gatha’ which was a verse often praising the Buddha inspired a Chinese form. There appears to have been a syncretism between the Buddhism introduced by Bodhidharma in 520 CE & the indigenous Taoist belief system. A story related in the Liu-tsu t’an ching is related of the sixth patriarch Hui-neng’s enlightenment poem. This poem seems to have been very important in the development of the Zen philosophical school. The Book of Odes, a collection of poetry compiled in the 5 centuries before Confucius, divided into 3 sections of; Feng, Ya & Sung also has its influence, primarily with the last division of ritual & religious songs & poems.

So the source has a long lineage. Poems of enlightenment were written predominantly by followers of Zen than by poets. Many of these poems utilised the ‘koan’ or ‘problem’ to solve. We are quite familiar with these concepts now because of the proliferation of Zen culture into the west. The unsolvable ‘one hand clapping’ & ‘Joshu’s Oak’ are non logical problems which demand a non logical approach. They are intended to be meditated upon. I am sure most people are familiar with these concepts now. The famous Butcho-Basho conversation gave us one of the most famous of Basho’s haiku, oddly about a frog.

It seems that haiku were inspired by the simplicity of certain calligraphy forms & artistic minimalism (shubuyi).

The nature references which many people seem to think are so important to haiku as a form may have been inspired by the Taoist need for a harmony with nature. A poem linked to nature is linked to the cosmos; thus, is in harmony with ‘the ten thousand things’. This is a yin/yang type of balance & underpins a lot of Taoist thought.

Eventually a form of poetry which was written in appreciation of the koan appeared in China, Korea & Japan. These employed a variety of line lengths. One of the most famous collections being Hui-kai’s ‘Gateless Barrier’ (wu-men-koan). This form often employed cryptic & ironic concepts which would later influence both haiku & senryu.

The Kendo master poet & lay preacher Yanoka Tesshu (1836-1888) wrote a haiku as he was on the verge of death, which was a tradition in Japan. Later the form became less rigid & poets like Takeda Santoka (1882-1940) a priest of the Soto Zen sect wrote verse in a free form style.

So, am I any wiser? I think it is an interesting subject & I will certainly give it some more thought. It is the sheer enthusiasm of the people who use these forums which has impressed me. I will probably still call my poems haiku. There again, who knows?

Bibliography:

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, Penguin Classics.
The Penguin Book of Zen Poetry, Stryck & Ikemoto.
Zen: Tradition & Transition, Ed, Kenneth Kraft.
The Oxford Companion to English Literature, Ed M Drabble.
A Dictionary of Modern Critical Terms, R Fowler.
Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.

[Delta40]

lol. The important thing is that you think you're good. Please, you don't need to go to this much trouble, especially when my opinion counts more to me than yours.

[Red-Headed]

lol. The important thing is that you think you're good. Please, you don't need to go to this much trouble, especially when my opinion counts more to me than yours.

I don't even claim that I am an adequate haiku writer, I just think that you should study the form before ignorantly criticising it.

"The important thing is that you think you're good."

The 'important' thing is to try & be a bit more mature.

[Red-Headed]

Merely my opinion. Methinks you can think whatever you like and defend haiku as you will, it doesn't matter to me. :ack2:

Seems like I am :beatdeadhorse5:

[Red-Headed]

lol. The important thing is that you think you're good. Please, you don't need to go to this much trouble, especially when my opinion counts more to me than yours.

Well, everyone has an opinion, they're a lot like anuses ... everyone has one.

[Delta40]

I am. I don't like your haiku. It's an honest opinion and I expect you to understand that you cannot 'make' people like your work. If you want to throw me into the ignoramus basket to feel better, then do so but don't get all peevy because my opinion doesn't sit well with you. That is childish. You honestly don't have to defend your work to me. I've made my position clear and I will assume you will accept it instead of making childish cracks at everything I've said.

[Delta40]

Well, everyone has an opinion, they're a lot like anuses ... everyone has one.

now that is funny but I still give my anus priority over someone elses! You should go into comedy. Very witty indeed...

[Red-Headed]

I am. I don't like your haiku. It's an honest opinion and I expect you to understand that you cannot 'make' people like your work. If you want to throw me into the ignoramus basket to feel better, then do so but don't get all peevy because my opinion doesn't sit well with you. That is childish. You honestly don't have to defend your work to me.

Now you're the one being childish, I don't wish to make people like my work, that would be pointless as tastes differ (de gustibus ...).

I like, expect & enjoy criticism of my work, but you haven't been constructive in your criticism at all.

If you wish to analyse what you don't like in a poem, or why it doesn't work for you, at least have the common courtesy to do it in a learned & scholarly way.

An 'honest' opinion is not literary criticism until it's backed up with an argument.

[Red-Headed]

now that is funny but I still give my anus priority over someone elses! You should go into comedy. Very witty indeed...

Thank you, a sense of humour seems to be sorely lacking on this site, that's for sure.

[Delta40]

Now you're the one being childish, I don't wish to make people like my work, that would be pointless as tastes differ (de gustibus ...).

I like, expect & enjoy criticism of my work, but you haven't been constructive in your criticism at all.

If you wish to analyse what you don't like in a poem, or why it doesn't work for you, at least have the common courtesy to do it in a learned & scholarly way.

An 'honest' opinion is not literary criticism until it's backed up with an argument.

I think we should just become friends instead. Lit-Net has a diverse membership, many of who are not learned or scholarly I am happy to own that my ability to critique work is no where near as brilliant as my poetry. You on the other hand are a bright spark with a wicked sense of humour and I am willing to call a truce because I'm sure I would love your company on a Saturday night. What do you say?

[Red-Headed]

I think we should just become friends instead. Lit-Net has a diverse membership, many of who are not learned or scholarly I am happy to own that my ability to critique work is no where near as brilliant as my poetry. You on the other hand are a bright spark with a wicked sense of humour and I am willing to call a truce because I'm sure I would love your company on a Saturday night. What do you say?

OK, where are we going & who's buying the first round?

[Delta40]

Allow me. Pint of guiness at Rosie O'Gradys?

[Red-Headed]

Allow me. Pint of guiness at Rosie O'Gradys?

Cheers.

[Delta40]

Cheers to us both in our creative pursuits :cheers2:

[everyadventure]

Wow, red-head, you made it to page 3 of comments... something I have failed to achieve in all my months here. Whether the comments are good or bad doesn't matter, you've got people talking and that's an accomplishment :)

[Red-Headed]

Wow, red-head, you made it to page 3 of comments... something I have failed to achieve in all my months here. Whether the comments are good or bad doesn't matter, you've got people talking and that's an accomplishment :)

Thanks, I can be a tad .. ermm ... controversial (argumentative) at times. Must be my red hair ...

[hillwalker]

What does it need that it doesn't have? Syllables go 5-7-5, so how does it only resemble a haiku?

Haikus are more than just 3 lines of random thought with 5, 7 and 5 syllables.

There is meant to be a link (a similarity or a contrast) between the opening line and the closing line with a distinct pivot in the middle line. The same duality is essential when writing tankas.

There are also meant to be inherent rules - such as including a reference to nature or a season or perhaps some natural phenomenon in every case. And any direct description is frowned upon - all has to be inferred.

Haikus can be extremely elegant and enigmatic when written well - but too many poets (in particular Western writers) miss the point of the form entirely.
I know an Australian poetess who has had many volumes of tankas published (Kathy Kituai) and has been studying this single form for almost 10 years, yet she still considers herself a novice.

H

[Red-Headed]

Haikus are more than just 3 lines of random thought with 5, 7 and 5 syllables.

There is meant to be a link (a similarity or a contrast) between the opening line and the closing line with a distinct pivot in the middle line. The same duality is essential when writing tankas.

This could be said of any short poem though. There are many examples of this supposed 'link' missing from classical Japanese haiku. There is definitely a contrast between the first & last lines of these 17th century haiku:

Cuckoo's crying -
nothing special to do,
nor has the burweed.

Mokoboji Temple -
fireflies come even
to the barking dog.

Five yen each:
a cup of tea,
the nightingale.

~ Issa



There are also meant to be inherent rules - such as including a reference to nature or a season or perhaps some natural phenomenon in every case.

This is one of the huge myths about haiku. The Taoist influence would supposedly indicate a certain harmony with nature if the poem was linked to either 'wan' the ten thousand things or one of the eight guardians of the Tao. It is not important with haiku however to actually have a link to nature or a natural phenomenon. It is too varied a form in the East to have this rigidity.

Where is the link to nature in Lady Sute-Jo's:

Woman -
how hot the skin
she covers.


unless you count her skin or heat? Where is the link to nature in Issa's

One bath
after another -
how stupid.

unless you count bathing as nature?



And any direct description is frowned upon - all has to be inferred.

I think not:

Evening bridge,
a thousand hands
cool on the rail.

Above the boat,
bellies
of wild geese.

Sprinkle water wide -
for the sparrow,
the cicada.

~Kikaku

Fish shop -
how cold the lips
of the salted bream.

Buddha's death-day
old hands
clicking rosaries.

Dozing on horseback
smoke from tea-fires
drifts to the moon.

Temple bell
a cloud of cherry flowers -
Ueno? Asakusa?

~ Basho

Translations by Lucian Stryk & Takashi Ikemoto.

There are plenty of direct descriptions in the above haiku.



Haikus can be extremely elegant and enigmatic when written well - but too many poets (in particular Western writers) miss the point of the form entirely.


I think that a lot of people talk about haiku but haven't actually done any real research on them.

[hillwalker]

I think that a lot of people talk about haiku but haven't actually done any real research on them.

I hope you'll not include me in that list - I never talk about haiku, have done no research whatsoever into haiku, nor do I intend to. I was merely replying to M-M's query with the suggestion that there's more to the form than just correct syllable count.

H

[Red-Headed]

I hope you'll not include me in that list - I never talk about haiku, have done no research whatsoever into haiku, nor do I intend to. I was merely replying to M-M's query with the suggestion that there's more to the form than just correct syllable count.

H

Of course not. :cool:

In fact, it could be said that in English, at least, even the syllable count may not be important. There is a whole school that writes haiku (or is it haiki?) in English, not unlike the Japanese translations I posted above.

[hillwalker]

Phew!:cool:

H

[Junglord]

Love this one. Very simple yet delivers many messages to me. Beautiful. Makes me smile just reading it.

[Red-Headed]

Love this one. Very simple yet delivers many messages to me. Beautiful. Makes me smile just reading it.

Thanks. I think this one does work quite well. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[Delta40]

Another pint?

[tailor STATELY]

Enjoyed your poem and this thread.

I enjoy the haiku form very much.

Most of my haiku(s) do not adhere to the 'rules' unfortunately; I am a barbaric Westerner after all (and worse - from Cali !). One of the 'rules' I break on occasion is to rhyme (at least I recall it's a no-no).

That said writing haiku has helped me to write with an economy of words, as well as other disciplines of sorts; they're just fun to write.

Many haiku(s) I have written are farcical or "out there". An example:

Lightning: Sight&Smell

The lightning nearby
Very close... white leggy veins
O-O+O- Ozone!

8-9-2007

Some favorites of mine that I have penned in the past:

AtAraxis

Be not thus deceived
Lest you disparage your worth
Rouse not the tiger

7-23-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vanity

Grasping for the Moon
Full faced in dawn's azure sky
To feed my vain pride

7-7-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lamentation

Mourning seasons lost
Leaf forborne an hoary oak
Laments the acorn

6-29-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dim^E

Time is but a mote
Rushing through narrow waters
Leading to the sea

2-10-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Lover's Mettle

Petal by petal
Love's riposte plucked of red rose
A lover's mettle

12-20-2004
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Father's Blessing

Angels of light tend
to one's walk through earthly life
A Father's blessing

4-28-2004
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking forward to more of your writings.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

[Red-Headed]

Enjoyed your poem and this thread.

I enjoy the haiku form very much.

Most of my haiku(s) do not adhere to the 'rules' unfortunately; I am a barbaric Westerner after all (and worse - from Cali !). One of the 'rules' I break on occasion is to rhyme (at least I recall it's a no-no).

That said writing haiku has helped me to write with an economy of words, as well as other disciplines of sorts; they're just fun to write.

Many haiku(s) I have written are farcical or "out there". An example:

Lightning: Sight&Smell

The lightning nearby
Very close... white leggy veins
O-O+O- Ozone!

8-9-2007

Some favorites of mine that I have penned in the past:

AtAraxis

Be not thus deceived
Lest you disparage your worth
Rouse not the tiger

7-23-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vanity

Grasping for the Moon
Full faced in dawn's azure sky
To feed my vain pride

7-7-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lamentation

Mourning seasons lost
Leaf forborne an hoary oak
Laments the acorn

6-29-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dim^E

Time is but a mote
Rushing through narrow waters
Leading to the sea

2-10-2005
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Lover's Mettle

Petal by petal
Love's riposte plucked of red rose
A lover's mettle

12-20-2004
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Father's Blessing

Angels of light tend
to one's walk through earthly life
A Father's blessing

4-28-2004
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Looking forward to more of your writings.

Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY

They're really great. I'm very impressed. I think you've caught the essential essence (ki?) of what haiku are supposed to be in those. I'm with you on this, as English speakers/writers we can't necessarily adhere to the classical form of the traditional Japanese. Even the Japanese don't, haiku themselves have evolved & changed as they have migrated through Asia itself. However, mimicking the form somewhat gives a succinct almost 'Imagist' economy of words to 'play with' so to speak. It can concentrate the mind wonderfully.

Personally I can't bothered to quibble about syllable/mora counts or whether the use of adjectives is verboten or not & whether you rhyme or end the last line on an interrogative (or not). All of these things both are & are not in much traditional haiku (haiki) anyway.

Perhaps we should call them modified haiku, or haiku-plus or something?

I look forward to your next haiku-inspired work, whatever you wish to call them.

[Varenne Rodin]

I love your haikus!

Here's some I've written:


A Tin Of Baked Beans

A tin of
baked beans!


The Cabbage

The cabbage...


and my personal favorite-


Computer Keyboard

C
o
m
p
u
t
e
r

K
e
y
b
o
a
r
d


Exactly what I was thinking!

[qimissung]

I generally conform to the 5-7-5 syllable structure when I write haikus myself, but my understanding was that was a way to sort of transfer the idea of the haiku form from the Japanese to the English. The idea of the haiku, I thought, was that it was a short poem that could be said in one breath.

They are somewhat deceptive to write. I struggle with the form myself, but I had a student once who seemed to toss them off with the greatest of ease.

Your poems are beautiful, red-headed. Say, is it "haiku" or "haikus" for the plural???

[Red-Headed]

I generally conform to the 5-7-5 syllable structure when I write haikus myself, but my understanding was that was a way to sort of transfer the idea of the haiku form from the Japanese to the English. The idea of the haiku, I thought, was that it was a short poem that could be said in one breath.

They are somewhat deceptive to write. I struggle with the form myself, but I had a student once who seemed to toss them off with the greatest of ease.

Your poems are beautiful, red-headed. Say, is it "haiku" or "haikus" for the plural???

Thank you for the compliment. I think, technically, the plural is 'haiki' in Japanese, but I don't think it really matters in English.

[Buh4Bee]

I actually really enjoyed the simplicity of this piece. I can appreciate all the thought behind the creation of it. It is beautiful in an ordinary way.

[Red-Headed]

I actually really enjoyed the simplicity of this piece. I can appreciate all the thought behind the creation of it. It is beautiful in an ordinary way.

I think that sums up the essence of haiku in general. I consciously strive for an almost child-like simplicity & quotidian ordinariness. It's sort of a yin/yang thing in Taoist terms. I think you either 'get' haiku, or you don't. I can see why they are so favoured as meditational concepts by Buddhists & Taoists.

[Delta40]

Oh wow! I did try my hand at haiku once.

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48015

[Red-Headed]

Oh wow! I did try my hand at haiku once.

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48015

"through oure sooth we live
I do brenne to wot yow bet
in this pees of minde"




Cool, it reads like Black Country English sounds. :cool:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Oogle doogle dah
moogle loogle soogle sah
foogle koogle kah.

[Red-Headed]

Oogle doogle dah
moogle loogle soogle sah
foogle koogle kah.

:troll: