Welsh & Gaelic

[Calidore]

Resuming an interrupted conversation...

I should say that it doesn't surprise me that people speak Gaelic in Wales (same as Spanish is commonly spoken here), but there's "spoken by people," and there's "used to label bathroom signs," which are very important. I also had thought, for no good reason I guess, that Gaelic and Welsh were completely separate languages. I've never heard anyone refer to "Welsh Gaelic" before.

[OrphanPip]

Gaelic used to be the dominant language of a lot of communities in Eastern Canada too, but there are as few as 1000 native Gaelic speakers left in Nova Scotia today. It's kind of sad because it used to be the 3rd most spoken language in Canada 150 years ago.

There have been efforts in recent years to try and foster learning of the language, but without any real native speakers left I think it's a little late.

Quebec nationalist would agree with you that there is an important distinction between spoken and it being the dominant language of public life. That is why they enacted laws restricting the use of English.

Linguistic minorities face interesting challenges because their cultures are in danger of being eroded even without outright suppression (which they often faced historically too).

[Varenne Rodin]

Is this the same Gaelic as Irish Gaelic?

[kiki1982]

Although at the time they started to teach Welsh in schools (when?), there were not such a lot of native speakers left either. When the railway came in the 19th century, a lot of immigrants came from England with it, thus moving the Welsh to speaking English. Nother against that, but like a lot of immigrants in those days, the Welsh left off speaking their own language to their children and reverted to English, because that was easier for everyone. Although with the working hours in mind, there was probably not a lot of time left to speak to children at all, so that was maybe one of the reasons...

Sometimes, on Countryfile, though you can still hear someone who was raised in Welsh and has English as his second language only.

I think it is probably possible to revive Gaelic in Canada, but it takes an orchestrated effort from the schoolsystem too, and that may be a problem.

Irish Gaelic is not the same as Scottish. Although they are reportedly similar (in structure probably), they are not the same. I don't know whether Irish and Scottish Gaelic speakers can understand each other, though.

You may be pleased to know that Irish Gaelic can be learned in the EU Institutions in Brussels. Don't know how many candidates there are, though. ;)

[Red-Headed]

Resuming an interrupted conversation...

I should say that it doesn't surprise me that people speak Gaelic in Wales (same as Spanish is commonly spoken here), but there's "spoken by people," and there's "used to label bathroom signs," which are very important. I also had thought, for no good reason I guess, that Gaelic and Welsh were completely separate languages. I've never heard anyone refer to "Welsh Gaelic" before.

The Celtic/Gaelic languages were once widely spoken in Europe from Ireland to what is now known as Turkey. They were among the first Aryan Indo-European languages in Europe itself up until the rise of the Roman empire which eventually spread Latin (although also an Aryan language).

The Roman army was originally developed to protect Rome from marauding Celtic tribes anyway. The Celts regularly burnt cities in or around the Mediterranean, & further, down to the ground at regular intervals, including, I believe, Athens at one stage. In around 400 BC the Celts under (Livy Ambicatus) sacked both Rome & the Etruscans.

The Gaelic languages almost certainly supplanted the earlier Euskadi & Finno-Ugric languages that still actually exist in parts of France, Spain & most of Finland. All Gaelic languages are related & *Welsh has its immediate roots in a now defunct form called 'Cumbric' (Cymraeg).

It has its own alphabet & recognises more semi-vowels than English & eight of the letters are digraphs. For instance the 'dd' is pronounced as a palatal 'th' sound.

a, b, c, ch, d, dd, e, f, ff, g, ng, h, i, l, ll, m, n, o, p, ph, r, rh, s, t, th, u, w, y

In fact, Gaelic was once so widespread that many Latin & Germanic (& Frisian) cognates are desended from Celtic influence. Words like Reich (Old English ric), Bann, Free (frei), Werth (worth), Hero (modern German 'Held'/ literally ~ Celt), Beute Booty & so on. Even the Latin 'gladius' (sword) probably has its roots in a proto Gaelic form similar to the modern Welsh cleddyf (pron ~cleth-iv, related to English 'cleave').

Although Welsh is closer to Cornish & Breton than Irish, there are distinct similarities between Irish & Welsh compared to the Frisian/Germanic descended English language.

Irish Gaelic/Welsh Gaelic/English comparison:

Crann/prenn/tree

mac/map/son

cenn/pen/head

cluv/pluv/feather

cuig/pimp/five

Welsh, Scottish Gaelic & Cornish are the oldest spoken languages on the British mainland & precede English by over a thousand years at least.




*The word Wales/Welsh is from a Frisian-Germanic root 'Walha' ~ foreigner.


Listen to Welsh on the popular soap opera Pobol y Cwm (People of the Valley)

HERE YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PslYcjWFNNU)

[Red-Headed]

Is this the same Gaelic as Irish Gaelic?

I really wish people would stop asking that question, I'm a quarter Welsh. :banghead:

[Lokasenna]

Speaking as a Welshman, I've never heard it called 'Welsh Gaelic' before. It's just 'Welsh' - up in Scotland is where they are trying to reintroduce 'Gaelic'. I've heard it historically referred to as 'Cambrian' or 'Cambric' though.

Until devolution, Welsh was a dying language - probably only about 15% of the population were speaking it. It's decline had been dramatic - when my parents first came to Wales 40 years ago, a large percentage of the population could not speak English. Since the Assembly came in, Welsh is now mandatory up to GCSE level in Welsh schools - so a large part of the population are now bilingual.

It's rare to find someone who can't speak English, but if you head down into the farming villages of mid-Wales, you will find whole settlements where people really struggle with English. It is now, most definitely, the dominant language of large parts of the principality.

[Red-Headed]

Speaking as a Welshman, I've never heard it called 'Welsh Gaelic' before.

It's not generally referred to as Welsh Gaelic in either England or Wales, I lived in Wales for many years & have family there. Welsh is sometimes referred to as Gaelic in Wales itself by other Welsh, although it is fairly rare in occurrence.

It is, after all, a Gaelic/Celtic language.

[Varenne Rodin]

I really wish people would stop asking that question, I'm a quarter Welsh. :banghead:

I'm Scottish and Irish. The only Gaelic I ever heard was spoken by my great grandfather. I didn't know there were others, so this is fascinating news for me.

[Red-Headed]

I'm Scottish and Irish. The only Gaelic I ever heard was spoken by my great grandfather. I didn't know there were others, so this is fascinating news for me.

Yes, but was that Scottish Gaelic or Irish Gaelic?

[Varenne Rodin]

Yes, but was that Scottish Gaelic or Irish Gaelic?

Irish Gaelic. His family moved from Scotland to Ireland when he was very young because his father was a fugitive. He gave me Irish Gaelic music cassettes for Christmas.

I would love to hear some of these other Gaelics and Celtics and etc. I'm sure they're quite lovely.

[Red-Headed]

Irish Gaelic. His family moved from Scotland to Ireland when he was very young because his father was a fugitive. He gave me Irish Gaelic music cassettes for Christmas.

I would love to hear some of these other Gaelics and Celtics and etc. I'm sure they're quite lovely.

I believe that Breton is quite similar to Welsh, & French traders who spoke Breton could make themselves understood in Wales & Welsh people can often be understood in Brittany. Manx is closer to Scots & Irish. I am not so sure about Spanish Gaelic variants. Cornish has a lot of similarities to Welsh & my paternal great grandfather was from Cornwall & apparently spoke Cornish Gaelic. He moved (with his family) to the Midlands because of the Industry there at the time. I never met him as he died before I was born.

Interestingly, some Midland English dialects (particularly Black Country) have a lot in common with modern Frisian Dutch & Frisian German dialects. Midlands English is probably the closest to Anglo-Saxon. The Frisian descended English languages eventually supplanted the British Gaelic languages as England (Angle-Land) formed as a nation.

[Calidore]

Wow, I've gotten more than I bargained for from the question. Big thanks to everyone for all the fascinating info.

[MystyrMystyry]

The Roman army was originally developed to protect Rome from marauding Celtic tribes anyway. The Celts regularly burnt cities in or around the Mediterranean, & further, down to the ground at regular intervals, including, I believe, Athens at one stage. In around 400 BC the Celts under (Livy Ambicatus) sacked both Rome & the Etruscans.

The Romans were originally the Etruscans, Trojans before that, Hittites before that.

They were a periodic pain to Babylon and Egypt, and had a monarchical civilisation up in the mountains fair distant from all the ancient action.

A civil war between two brothers destroyed them (we know this because they had clay books which recorded the rise and decline to the last man) and the remaining stragglers set off to found Troy.

You know what happened to them right? Well after Troy was smashed the remaining stragglers set off for a new home, and the boot of Italy was where they headed, but they kept getting beat up and raided by the Celtic locals from every direction. So they developed a standing army and culture with accompanying fighting skills, and eventually began retaliatory raids of their own.

Due to the devastating outcome of Troy they learnt to distrust royalty, and thus had a semi-democratic system. There were earthquakes at some point which demolished the original settlement so they abandoned the Mt Vesuvius locale to better climes - Rome was founded on another (Celtic) tribe's land, but because the Celtic tribes had their own squabbles and various matters to settle between themselves - there was no unity amongst them - they let it go.

It wasn't long before they saw the effectiveness of the new Roman system and wanted to join rather than fight, though there were those who resisted, and ultimately became the slaves upon whose back Rome was actually founded.

But the Romans had long memories along with oral traditions, and remembered Gaulish attacks from centuries before, so it was natural that that was going to be one of their first ports of call.

And on it goes...

[Varenne Rodin]

Not enough information. :(

[MystyrMystyry]

Cheeky!

[Red-Headed]

The Romans were originally the Etruscans, Trojans before that, Hittites before that.



Where are you getting your history from, the Beano? LOL

[MystyrMystyry]

Actually from more than just a book (of any description). It's a discipline known as Archaeology - perhaps you're familiar with the term?

Anyway Etruscan relics relate too perfectly with Trojan and Hittite relics to be mere coincidence, added to the relative recorded timelines of other cultures in contact with them - actually there's an entire internet out there, so why not do yourself a favour and give yourself a little edukashun?

[Red-Headed]

Actually from more than just a book (of any description). It's a discipline known as Archaeology - perhaps you're familiar with the term?

Anyway Etruscan relics relate too perfectly with Trojan and Hittite relics to be mere coincidence, added to the relative recorded timelines of other cultures in contact with them - actually there's an entire internet out there, so why not do yourself a favour and give yourself a little edukashun?

"The origins of the Etruscans are lost in prehistory. Historians have no literature, no texts of religion or philosophy; therefore much of what is known about this civilization is derived from grave goods and tomb findings.[7] The main hypotheses are that they are indigenous, probably stemming from the Villanovan culture or from the Near East.[8] Etruscan expansion was focused both to the north beyond the Apennines and into Campania. Some small towns in the 6th century BC disappeared during this time, ostensibly consumed by greater, more powerful neighbours. However, it is certain that the political structure of the Etruscan culture was similar to, albeit more aristocratic than, Magna Graecia in the south. The mining and commerce of metal, especially copper and iron, led to an enrichment of the Etruscans and to the expansion of their influence in the Italian peninsula and the western Mediterranean sea. Here their interests collided with those of the Greeks, especially in the 6th century BC, when Phoceans of Italy founded colonies along the coast of France, Spain and Corsica. This led the Etruscans to ally themselves with the Carthaginians, whose interests also collided with the Greeks.[9][10]

Around 540 BC, the Battle of Alalia led to a new distribution of power in the western Mediterranean Sea. Though the battle had no clear winner, Carthage managed to expand its sphere of influence at the expense of the Greeks, and Etruria saw itself relegated to the northern Tyrrhenian Sea with full ownership of Corsica. From the first half of the 5th century, the new international political situation meant the beginning of the Etruscan decline after losing their southern provinces. In 480 BC, Etruria's ally Carthage was defeated by a coalition of Magna Graecia cities led by Syracuse. A few years later, in 474, Syracuse's tyrant Hiero defeated the Etruscans at the Battle of Cumae. Etruria's influence over the cities of Latium and Campania weakened, and it was taken over by Romans and Samnites. In the 4th century, Etruria saw a Gallic invasion end its influence over the Po valley and the Adriatic coast. Meanwhile, Rome had started annexing Etruscan cities. This led to the loss of the Northern Etruscan provinces. Etruria was assimilated by Rome around 300 BC.[9][10]"

"Knowledge of the Etruscan language is still far from complete. The Etruscans are believed to have spoken a non-Indo-European language; the majority consensus is that Etruscan is related only to other members of what is called the Tyrsenian language family, which in itself is an isolate family, that is, unrelated directly to other known language groups. Since Rix (1998) it is widely accepted that the Tyrsenian family groups Rhaetic and Lemnian are related to Etruscan."

"Hittite is the earliest attested Indo-European language, but was only rediscovered more than a century after the Proto-Indo-European hypothesis had been formulated. Because of marked differences in its structure and phonology, some linguists, most notably Edgar H. Sturtevant and Warren Cowgill, argued that it should be classified as a sister language to the Indo-European languages, rather than a daughter language, formulating the Indo-Hittite hypothesis. Other linguists, however, continue to accept the traditional 19th century view of the primacy of Proto-Indo-European and interpret the unusual features of Hittite as mainly due to later innovations. Still others claim that Hittite, as well as its Anatolian cousins, split off from Proto-Indo-European at an early stage, thereby preserving archaisms that were later lost in the other Indo-European languages.[2]"

~ Wikipedia

Apparently, the Hittites & Etruscans spoke entirely different language groups: Aryan & non-Aryan, in my experience this points to very different cultures.

[MystyrMystyry]

yep. But when it comes to history there's more to it than just a couple of articles in wiki.

http://www.scientiapress.com/findings/torc.htm

This is brief enough for a start

[Red-Headed]

yep. But when it comes to history there's more to it than just a couple of articles in wiki.

http://www.scientiapress.com/findings/torc.htm

This is brief enough for a start

"Some Greek writers held that the Etruscans were Trojans; and a great deal of myth, echoed by Vergil, claimed that Aeneas and other escapees from the destruction of Troy were the founders of Rome. "

Concerning that site, I think that this says it all. I have more faith in finding Atlantis in Bridgend.

[MystyrMystyry]

Concerning any site

History is as much a semi-literary guessing game as pretending to know the truth about it - 100 historians in a room will give you a hundred different histories, and all will believe their truth is the only one until shown to have overlooked something

The very name: history = his story, not histruth or thetruth

That's why you have to study it intensely to form your own opinion, and then believe that opinion or else you start to go nuts - but the person who has studied it the most still has the upper hand on conjecture, compared to they who have only been taught the 'one truth'

Even the wording of the wiki article you cited 'It is *believed* the Etruscans spoke a non-Indo-European blah blah' should tell us that that it's as open to speculation as if they came from Jupiter by bus wearing only pretty pink tutus and sticky galoshes

Another thing I noticed was that the words 'historians discuss' appear often. No they don't. They yabber at each other and ignore each other.

[Varenne Rodin]

It's amazing that our Welsh and Gaelic conversation led us to the age old debate over Trojans in Etruria. People have been arguing over this for more than 2000 years. There haven't been significant changes to the discussion for centuries. I doubt we'll reach a definitive conclusion right here and now.

I will say that I am on the side of archaeology (which overwhelmingly documented shiny metal stuff and bio/environmental/genetic information in the early Italian areas) as the best source and guide to establishing national identities. Political history, while richly interesting, shouldn't be the chief deciding factor in determining who came from where and why (obviously?).

Pardon my simplicity. It's always fun and fascinating to revisit those good old Etruscans.

[Varenne Rodin]

Even the wording of the wiki article you cited 'It is *believed* the Etruscans spoke a non-Indo-European blah blah' should tell us that that it's as open to speculation as if they came from Jupiter by bus wearing only pretty pink tutus and sticky galoshes


Oh, man. I hope to space Christ that this is the true version of events!

[Red-Headed]

The very name: history = his story, not histruth or thetruth

No it doesn't. Where do you get this stuff from, 'Nazi Flying Saucers & Atlantis Finders Weekly' or 'The Daily Mail Big Book of Facts'?

The noun history has its origins in the Greek historia, ultimately from histor meaning knowing. It is cognate with istor, & eidenai (learned/to know) & is found in words like histrionic (histrionicus = actor Late Latin). It also is cognate with words like 'wit'.

Interestingly, many etymologists believe that the ultimate root may actually be Etruscan in origin.

[Red-Headed]

Oh, man. I hope to space Christ that this is the true version of events!

You & me both!

Personally I think that the Etruscans were from Uranus & are now in cryogenic suspended animation in the pyramids on Mars just waiting for a signal from the HAARP array sent by the reptoids from Zeta Reticuli to come to Earth & engineer a plot to encourage politicians to build more windfarms so as to create more global warming so our planet dies & they can steal our resources ...


... What ... is it time for my medication already Nurse Rached? :crazy:

[Calidore]

Even the wording of the wiki article you cited 'It is *believed* the Etruscans spoke a non-Indo-European blah blah' should tell us that that it's as open to speculation as if they came from Jupiter by bus wearing only pretty pink tutus and sticky galoshes


Now that's just silly. Jupiter doesn't have a solid surface, so there's nothing to drive a bus on.

[Varenne Rodin]

Now that's just silly. Jupiter doesn't have a solid surface, so there's nothing to drive a bus on.

Dash it all, Calidore! Why are you so wise?

[kasie]

In reply to the OP, Welsh is widely spoken in the part of south-west Wales where I live - it's not just for 'bathroom signs' as you put it.

When I came to live here some twenty-odd years ago, I could not continue with my teaching career because I could not teach in Welsh - primary schools (5 - 11 yrs) used Welsh exclusively in this county. I was offered an intensive course of one year and assured that I would be competent to teach in Welsh in that time. I doubted it and turned down the offer. I could have gone across the county border and found an English medium school so that I could continue my teaching career.

The history of education in Wales is one of the factors in the decline of the language - when education became compulsory in UK in the nineteenth century, it was decided (in Westminster) that the teaching medium would be English. So rigidly was this ruling enforced that children were punished for speaking Welsh - they were made to wear a heavy wooden sign bearing the words 'Welsh Not', the humiliation of which has never been forgotten and is cited still as an example of English 'Imperialism' in 'subduing' everything Welsh. Imagine the confusion for a five year old coming from a Welsh-speaking home to an English-speaking classroom, not only being forbidden to speak your native language in your own country, but experiencing ridicule and dismissal of everything connected with your own nationality. I believe it happened to my grandfather: I've been told that my great-grandfather spoke only Welsh - my grandfather, his eldest son, would have been the first of the family to attend the new school and be forced to use English and abandon his home language. He did not seem to resent this but he never used Welsh again, did not teach his own children Welsh nor encourage them to learn it. By the time of my father's schooling, the ruling had been relaxed and some Welsh was taught in schools but neither he nor my mother ever learned enough to converse in Welsh. The language had been kept alive in churches and chapels and in cultural events such as Eisteddfodau in some parts of the country but in places like the mining valleys in east Wales where there had been a huge influx of people of all nationalities, not only English, to work in the coal and iron industries, English had become the lingua franca and the use of Welsh largely died out in barely a generation.

The attempt in the 1980s to reintroduce the language by reversing the school language situation has at least meant that a generation of children have had experience of learning in the language of their native country. I will not enter into the debate as to whether the regulation has been successful - I have no data to prove it one way or another. But I do hear Welsh spoken around me - and yes, I am now attempting to learn it. It's a hard language to acquire.

[Red-Headed]

In reply to the OP, Welsh is widely spoken in the part of south-west Wales where I live - it's not just for 'bathroom signs' as you put it.

When I came to live here some twenty-odd years ago, I could not continue with my teaching career because I could not teach in Welsh - primary schools (5 - 11 yrs) used Welsh exclusively in this county. I was offered an intensive course of one year and assured that I would be competent to teach in Welsh in that time. I doubted it and turned down the offer. I could have gone across the county border and found an English medium school so that I could continue my teaching career.

The history of education in Wales is one of the factors in the decline of the language - when education became compulsory in UK in the nineteenth century, it was decided (in Westminster) that the teaching medium would be English. So rigidly was this ruling enforced that children were punished for speaking Welsh - they were made to wear a heavy wooden sign bearing the words 'Welsh Not', the humiliation of which has never been forgotten and is cited still as an example of English 'Imperialism' in 'subduing' everything Welsh. Imagine the confusion for a five year old coming from a Welsh-speaking home to an English-speaking classroom, not only being forbidden to speak your native language in your own country, but experiencing ridicule and dismissal of everything connected with your own nationality. I believe it happened to my grandfather: I've been told that my great-grandfather spoke only Welsh - my grandfather, his eldest son, would have been the first of the family to attend the new school and be forced to use English and abandon his home language. He did not seem to resent this but he never used Welsh again, did not teach his own children Welsh nor encourage them to learn it. By the time of my father's schooling, the ruling had been relaxed and some Welsh was taught in schools but neither he nor my mother ever learned enough to converse in Welsh. The language had been kept alive in churches and chapels and in cultural events such as Eisteddfodau in some parts of the country but in places like the mining valleys in east Wales where there had been a huge influx of people of all nationalities, not only English, to work in the coal and iron industries, English had become the lingua franca and the use of Welsh largely died out in barely a generation.

The attempt in the 1980s to reintroduce the language by reversing the school language situation has at least meant that a generation of children have had experience of learning in the language of their native country. I will not enter into the debate as to whether the regulation has been successful - I have no data to prove it one way or another. But I do hear Welsh spoken around me - and yes, I am now attempting to learn it. It's a hard language to acquire.

Yes, this is a great disgrace in English history that it did try & annihilate the Welsh language. Whatever reasons that Whitehall put forward for this, it doesn't excuse the fact that it was wrong, any way you look at it. The term 'welch' as in welching on a bet has its roots in the practise of grassing (informing) on other schoolchildren who had the temerity to speak Welsh at school.