Fantasy and values

[G L Wilson]

Fantasy. Does it have any social value at all?

[stlukesguild]

Who cares?

Stupid questions posted on the internet... do they have any social value at all?:sosp:

[Red-Headed]

Fantasy. Does it have any social value at all?

It all depends on what you mean by fantasy I guess?

[G L Wilson]

It all depends on what you mean by fantasy I guess?

Dwarves, elves, pixies - that sort of thing.

[Red-Headed]

Dwarves, elves, pixies - that sort of thing.

Well, people these days claim to be abducted by extraterrestrials, years ago folk claimed to be taken by the fairies/pixies/elves & the like. Who knows, maybe the elves & the pixies live, somewhere in time & space?

"The fabric of 'reality' constitutes a grotesque deception imposed by the limitations of time & space." ~ E. A. Poe.

Although, I think, to be properly politically correct, dwarves like to be called 'small people' now.

[G L Wilson]

Well, people these days claim to be abducted by extraterrestrials, years ago folk claimed to be taken by the fairies/pixies/elves & the like. Who knows, maybe the elves & the pixies live, somewhere in time & space?

"The fabric of 'reality' constitutes a grotesque deception imposed by the limitations of time & space." ~ E. A. Poe.

Although, I think, to be properly politically correct, dwarves like to be called 'small people' now.

You are funny. lol.

[Red-Headed]

You are funny. lol.

That depends ... I tend to see myself as an 'alternative' comedian, which probably means I'm not funny. I think that could be considered postmodern.

[G L Wilson]

That depends ... I tend to see myself as an 'alternative' comedian, which probably means I'm not funny. I think that could be considered postmodern.

It could be but it could also be thought of as the essence of comedy.

[Red-Headed]

It could be but it could also be thought of as the essence of comedy.

Well, there you go. :banana:

Have you ever read Freud's Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious?

I keep meaning to, I'll have to sleep on it.

[G L Wilson]

Well, there you go. :banana:

Have you ever read Freud's Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious?

I keep meaning to, I'll have to sleep on it.

I have read about the book but I cannot remember a thing about it - so much for the Unconscious.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Re-Headed, please stop indulging him.

[Red-Headed]

Re-Headed, please stop indulging him.

Why, is it breaking some rule?

[Calidore]

Forgive me, Mutatis, but it seems like you're so determined that G.L. be a troll that you're now resentful when his posts turn into actual conversations, which they pretty much all have. He doesn't think like you, or maybe even most people, but why does that mean his thoughts have no value?

[Calidore]

Dwarves, elves, pixies - that sort of thing.

They're such old creatures (by which I mean invented way back), that they may have had "social value" then that isn't as apparent now.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I guess we have different standards for what constitutes actual conversation. And, if you noticed, the ones that have actually had some meaningful exchange, I've kept my mouth shut, so I'm not quite sure what you're complaining about.

[Calidore]

I guess we have different standards for what constitutes actual conversation.

Well, up above, G.L. and Red had eight messages of uninterrupted back-and-forth. Less than that would still be conversation to me.


And, if you noticed, the ones that have actually had some meaningful exchange, I've kept my mouth shut, so I'm not quite sure what you're complaining about.

Meaningful's pretty subjective. I'm personally fine with frivolous as well as meaningful. Either way, I just think that breaking in on a conversation in order to tell one person to stop talking to another one who you don't happen to like is a bit much.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Is "subjective" the new LitNet buzzword all of a sudden?

[Red-Headed]

Everything is subjective, nothing is true. Sorry, I thought this was the postmodern thread.

My bad ...

[BienvenuJDC]

I guess we have different standards for what constitutes actual conversation. And, if you noticed, the ones that have actually had some meaningful exchange, I've kept my mouth shut, so I'm not quite sure what you're complaining about.

I'm in agreement with you....this is nothing but trolling.

[BienvenuJDC]

Well, up above, G.L. and Red had eight messages of uninterrupted back-and-forth. Less than that would still be conversation to me.


Then this belongs in General Chat....not General Literature.

[Calidore]

Then this belongs in General Chat....not General Literature.

I wasn't even looking at the groups, but you're absolutely right. At least I think so; philosophical questions not about philosophical literature, general questions not about general literature, etc. probably should go in chat in future. G.L., you listening?

[ralfyman]

Yes, very much, esp. if fantasy involves more than elves, etc.

[MarkBastable]

Yeah, I think fantasy absolutely can carry all sorts of value.

Much as I loathe Tolkien, I'm actually quite fond of trolls and elves and magical whimsy. For me, these things are not only archetypes that resound down the centuries of my culture, they are also handy representations of all sorts of contemporary concerns and issues - and both those reasons for liking mythological beings comes down to what they represent, rather than what they are.

Which is not to say, of course, that fantasy must have anything more in it than the fantasy itself. There's an audience for that - a huge one. It's just that I'm not a member. I think the value of fantasy - the social value, if you like - is in its potential as allegory.

(My dislike of Tolkien, for instance, isn't about the the content and the intention - the way, for instance in which Lord of the Rings is a vehicle for a lot of stuff about his experiences in the Great War. It's about the writing, which doesn't light up my amulet at all.)

[G L Wilson]

Does fantasy not teach the value of friendship?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't know, G L, why don't you ELABORATE?

[JBI]

I remember a post a wild back that quoted a study that showed women who read romance novels have more gratifying sex. Do we call that sort of fantasy a socially beneficial one?

As far as I am concerned, read away women, it seems to do half the work for us men!

[Paulclem]

Does fantasy not teach the value of friendship?

Friendship, loyalty, perseverence etc etc - but these are all run of the mill values you could find in the innumerable buddy movies you get.

It is rather a limited expectation. They could do so much more. for example I read Surface Detail recently by Iain M Banks - a sci-fi which examines the conception and literal use and morality surrounding a 15th century Bosch style hell. You can do so much in a novel, and as Mark says - the characters and setting can represent whatever the author wants.

Having said that, the fantasy novellist will know their market and give them what they want.

[Buh4Bee]

:svengo:
:lol::lol:

[Delta40]

I think fantasy is unhelpful when it places us in denial of our own reality and prevents us from dealing with it.

[G L Wilson]

Does fantasy not teach the socially awkward their value?
Does fantasy not teach the value of small things?

[Delta40]

Depends where the fantasy lies.

[G L Wilson]

Depends where the fantasy lies.

Is not fantasy a projection of self?

[Delta40]

Is not fantasy a projection of self?

What makes you say that?

[G L Wilson]

What makes you say that?

Is not philosophy in makebelieve?
Is not love in makebelieve?

[Paulclem]

I think fantasy is unhelpful when it places us in denial of our own reality and prevents us from dealing with it.

Why would Fantasy do that any more than any other setting/ genre? Are you perhaps thinking of World Of warcraft type stuff where such an accusation can perhaps be justified with cases of addiction? Isn't a lot of fiction escapist such as crime, historical etc etc?

[G L Wilson]

Why would Fantasy do that any more than any other setting/ genre? Are you perhaps thinking of World Of warcraft type stuff where such an accusation can perhaps be justified with cases of addiction? Isn't a lot of fiction escapist such as crime, historical etc etc?

Fiction as a danger is overstated.

[Delta40]

Is not philosophy in makebelieve?
Is not love in makebelieve?

lol. Do you answer all questions with more questions?

[G L Wilson]

lol. Do you answer all questions with more questions?

Only when I can't think of anything better to do.

[Delta40]

Why would Fantasy do that any more than any other setting/ genre? Are you perhaps thinking of World Of warcraft type stuff where such an accusation can perhaps be justified with cases of addiction? Isn't a lot of fiction escapist such as crime, historical etc etc?

I remember vaguely reading somewhere an article written in the 19th century about the sin of fiction. It centred around missionaries in Africa who where there to carry out the Lord's work but had got distracted by the books they were reading and therefore it was considered offensive. I can appreciate the rationale behind this if we fail to address our responsibilities by losing ourselves in fantasy.

[Paulclem]

I remember vaguely reading somewhere an article written in the 19th century about the sin of fiction. It centred around missionaries in Africa who where there to carry out the Lord's work but had got distracted by the books they were reading and therefore it was considered offensive. I can appreciate the rationale behind this if we fail to address our responsibilities by losing ourselves in fantasy.

I see. It could apply to anything continued inappropriately though - such as TV. I remember the charge that my generation would end up with square eyes. Nowadays it's computer games or the internet.

(Critics often begin with "Kids today..." and then go on about how brilliant it was then compared to now).

[Delta40]

I see. It could apply to anything continued inappropriately though - such as TV. I remember the charge that my generation would end up with square eyes. Nowadays it's computer games or the internet.

(Critics often begin with "Kids today..." and then go on about how brilliant it was then compared to now).

You're quite right of course especially in terms of the technological availability of fantasy.

[G L Wilson]

Psychopaths lose themselves in fantasy, not ordinary people.

[MarkBastable]

Only when I can't think of anything better to do.


Try thinking better.

[G L Wilson]

Try thinking better.

Try not to think that you're better than everyone else.

[Delta40]

Psychopaths lose themselves in fantasy, not ordinary people.


I think you're wrong :lol:

[j_mo1492]

Is anyone else a big fan of Robert Olen Butler? He won the Pulitzer in '93 for "A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain" and his new book "A Small Hotel" looks amazing. I love how he manages to keep reinventing himself.

"Hell" is also pretty crazy, surreal, fantasy based as well, but it's the most compelling book I've ever read.

[G L Wilson]

I think you're wrong :lol:

Don Quixote was a psychopath, was he not?

[Delta40]

Don Quixote was a psychopath, was he not?

haven't the foggiest but what's your point (if any)?

[G L Wilson]

haven't the foggiest but what's your point (if any)?

No point, just stating a fact: a little too much of something is usually too much, I say.

[Delta40]

Even if he was a psychopath it has no bearing on your previous statements about psychopaths vs ordinary people. The fact that I have red hair doesn't either!

[G L Wilson]

Even if he was a psychopath it has no bearing on your previous statements about psychopaths vs ordinary people. The fact that I have red hair doesn't either!

Don Quixote was certainly no ordinary man, he was as crazy as bat **** because he had read too many romances in his day.

[Delta40]

Don Quixote was certainly no ordinary man, he was as crazy as bat **** because he had read too many romances in his day.

is a fiction the basis for your argument then?

[G L Wilson]

is a fiction the basis for your argument then?

It's not just any fiction, but yes!

[Delta40]

It's not just any fiction, but yes!

Well that's really funny. Ironic almost. That you would use a fictional example to 'prove' your point! :lol: Now I'm having a good day....

[cl154576]

Your use of Don Quixote seems to be a general proof of a psychopath's ability to lose himself in fantasy. Despite the doubtfulness of the generalization (there are many different types of psychopaths) – where is the proof that ordinary people do not?

[G L Wilson]

Your use of Don Quixote seems to be a general proof of a psychopath's ability to lose himself in fantasy. Despite the doubtfulness of the generalization (there are many different types of psychopaths) – where is the proof that ordinary people do not?

I would count ordinary as having a diversity of interests.

[Red-Headed]

Well that's really funny. Ironic almost. That you would use a fictional example to 'prove' your point! :lol: Now I'm having a good day....

Wow, game, set & match to Delta40 there mate! New balls please ...

[Red-Headed]

On a slightly different note, this essay (http://wedgwoodcircle.com/news/articles/sometimes-fairy-stories-may-say-best-whats-to-be-said/) by C.S. Lewis may be of interest.

"The Fantastic or Mythical is a Mode available at all ages for some readers; for others, at none. At all ages, if it is well used by the author and meets the right reader, it has the same power: to generalize while remaining concrete, to present in palpable form not concepts or even experiences but whole classes of experience, and to throw off irrelevancies. But at its best it can do more; it can give us experiences we have never had and thus, instead of ‘commenting on life’, can add to it. I am speaking, of course, about the thing itself, not my own attempts at it." ~ Penultimate paragraph op cit.

[cl154576]

I would count ordinary as having a diversity of interests.

I have a variety of interests. One day I do math for six hours straight and then the next day I turn to reading and obsess over that, and then over running, over music, etc., until the framework collapses on me and nearly kills me. Then I begin compulsively stuffing myself with hobbies all over again.

Does that mean I'm normal?

[G L Wilson]

Breakdowns under stress occur, thresholds vary.

[Freudian Monkey]

I think fantasy is unhelpful when it places us in denial of our own reality and prevents us from dealing with it.

I think you are confusing fantasy as it appears in literature with other phenomena that are also called fantasy - like online fantasy games, for instance. The whole nature of storytelling is itself fantastic; the earliest products of literary culture have been fables and fairy tales. I can see no reason why fantasy should be regarded less "useful" or less valuable than any other form of fiction. As many have already stated here, fantasy is often not so much about knights and dragons as it's about reflecting oneself through those archetypal figures.