Norway

[TheFifthElement]

After the terrible events that occurred in Norway, my thoughts are with her people. I hope all Norwegian Litnetters are safe and well and their families unaffected.

[papayahed]

What Fifth said.

[Paulclem]

They thought it was Al Qaida, but it turns out it was a Christian Fundamentalist extremist with racist views. It just goes to show that extremism is bad in any language.

Thoughts too.

[JuniperWoolf]

I'm pretty angry. I'm so tired of bull**** politics and dead kids.

[Calidore]

That was only a political statement in his mind, just like he's only a Christian in his mind. All he is is a homicidal a$$hole, whose cowardice required using a label for justification.

[Lokasenna]

Utterly horrific...

In terms of ideology, that's only an excuse. That man obviously had more than a few screws loose, and it's the innocent people who suffer for it.

[Helga]

This is truly horrible, there have been many memorials here on the ice and almost nothing else on the news. very sad and my thoughts are with the people of Norway.

[qimissung]

It's their deadliest attack since WWII.

Our thoughts are with you, Norwegians.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

There's really no words to offer placation. It's just horrible.

I did hear one thing that struck me as incredibly bizzarre, and maybe someone with better knowledge of Norwegian law could verify this. I heard that the maximum penalty for any crime in Norway is 21 years in prison. If true, that means this guy will be out of prison while he's still in his 50s. As an American (and rational person) this just seems insane.

[OrphanPip]

Well a life sentence in Canada is 20 years, though we allow consecutive sentencing for multiple crimes.

(Actually, turns out they don't allow consecutive sentencing, but they allow 5 year extensions for dangerous offenders, so he can be sent to jail for life if judges continue to consider him dangerous).

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

(Actually, turns out they don't allow consecutive sentencing, but they allow 5 year extensions for dangerous offenders, so he can be sent to jail for life if judges continue to consider him dangerous).
Good.

[kiki1982]

My thoughts are also with Norway.

But Norway is the country that has no prisons like we know them. What they call prisons are reform centres where prisoners are re-entered into society and learn to take responsibility. There was an article in the DailyMail a while ago, but I knew about it already and saw documentary about it some time ago.

So, instead of putting a murderer in prison and letting him vegetate and think about what to do next like we do, even bringing him into contact with fellow offenders so they learn one another's tricks, they teach prisoners a trade they want to learn, let them study a degree, let them take an apprenticeship, make them go to work (nice for the prison!) and then, when ready, send them out into society, confident that they will get work and function well.

Some prisons are big self-contained complexes with little bungalos where prisoners live, doing their own housework, spending their own free time and taking their own responsibility in going to work. This work even includes outside prison tasks like mending roads, working on ferries etc. Though monitored (of course), they are not chained to anything, but choose not to escape. Surprisingly.

Prisoners rarely relapse and attacks on prison staff seldom happen.

I wouldn't know what they do with a murderer who is in fact mentally unstable. I guess they would institutionalise him instead of 'locking' him up. Although extremist views can be cured.

The (good) idea behind it is that a person who commits a crime is either unfortunate (has no money) or is completely frustrated with society and needs to be shown that society is not bad and that he needs to be able to manage his emotions. So they make a prisoner feel useful and so frustration subsides.

And, the other upside: the Norwegian prison system is amazingly economical as there are fewer guards per prison and also no relapses. So instead of gaining more prisoners every year, like most countries, they just ship them out and never see them again in most cases.

Of course, Norway is a country with a very small population.

So, maximum 21 years of reformation and maybe add-ons if the judge believes that the prisoner is not yet ready to function on his own.

[Lokasenna]

I suppose it depends on the psychiatric report - if this man is found to be, as seems likely, a psychopath, then I understand that it is within the power of the judge to order him detained in perpetuity in a psychiatric instiution.

Something tells me that a man who believes he can justify the mass murder of innocent youths as a 'necessity' is someone who wouldn't respond well to mending roads or doing a degree...

[Helga]

they say he wrote an essay about why he was doing this and even mentioned other countries including Iceland for having people who need to be punished, he even had a number 300 something people in iceland that are bad for some reason. Now a lot of people who knew him are speaking to the press abut him and even a neighbour that thought about reporting him a few times to the police....


about the legal system here on the ice a life sentence is 16 years and with good behaviour your out in one third of that time! bad system, the life sentence has only been used a handful of times. the prisons are way to nice too.

I read this morning that his dad wishes that Breivik had killed himself.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

He wrote a 1500 page manifesto on why he did what he did, among numerous other things, I assume.

[kiki1982]

I suppose it depends on the psychiatric report - if this man is found to be, as seems likely, a psychopath, then I understand that it is within the power of the judge to order him detained in perpetuity in a psychiatric instiution.

Something tells me that a man who believes he can justify the mass murder of innocent youths as a 'necessity' is someone who wouldn't respond well to mending roads or doing a degree...

Yes, probably, if he is totally mad, he will be institutionalised.

[TheFifthElement]

His defence lawyer (who is also a member of the Labour party and by all accounts mystified why he has been chosen to defend him) is of the view that he is totally insane: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-attacks-anders-behring-breivik

Did anyone see the tributes today - all those people holding roses in the air and the carrying of the torch. Brought a tear to the eye. Let's hope the Norwegian people can emerge from this stronger and more determined to reject the extremism Behring apparently stands for.

[aliengirl]

I saw a photo of the tribute today and a man wiping his tears. It brought a lump in my throat. Having recently lost my father I know what it feels to lose your dear ones and that too only because of a mad person. I read that he was enjoying himself while shooting. How disgusting!
My heart goes out to Norwegian people. Peace!

[Red-Headed]

Concerning Brievik's manifesto, which I have not actually read, but have gleaned much of its contents from other sources, & its connections & various links to other far-right organisations, especially the EDL.

It's interesting that some British far-right groups (the EDL particularly) have actually tried to reach out to Jewish, Sikh & Hindu organisations. In fact, I believe one of the leading lights of the EDL is a Sikh (although a British national).

The Jewish Defence League has held a demonstration in support of the EDL, saying that the two groups will “take a stand against the forces of political Islam”.

Anders Behring Breivik, perpetrator of the 2011 Norway attacks, boasted online about his discussions with the EDL. The EDL have denied any links and has condemned his actions. ~ Wikipedia

The writings of Melanie Phillips (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Melanie_Phillips) seem to have been a potent influence on Brievik as well. She seems to postulate something that I call the 'Standard right-wing Alternative Paradigm'. She was originally left-wing but became radicalised somewhat to the 'right' & now writes for that great bastion of truth & reality the Daily Mail (surprise, surprise).

Certain writers, fringe organisations & 'newspapers' like The Daily Mail & the other right-wing publications tend to promote this strange notion of a Europe that has been ravaged & in fact emasculated & de-moralised by some demonic syncretism of 'cultural marxism' & 'feminism' inter alia. These have supposedly conspired to weaken & feminise the European psyche in some strange & unexplained way, so that we are open to attack & domination by the enemies of freedom. These sentiments seem redolent of a lot of far-right American ideas, & in fact, I have seen these concepts vocalised about Europe by quite a few Americans on several bulletin boards. These very same ideas are also sometimes aimed at President Obama & his government by some individuals & organisations within the USA & elsewhere. It seems to be a growing theme for many on the radical right. Mythology like this has always been important to extremists. In semiotic theory; mythologies can actually organise shared forms of cultural identification & perception. This can be an incredible tool for propaganda purposes. The Nazis, of course were the masters of this kind of psychic manipulation. These are also virtually the same concepts that Breivik's febrile manifesto apparently mentions & discusses. This 'standard alternative right wing paradigm' & rather contrived mythology seems to want to will itself (will to power?) into some weird alternate or parallel universe, where it is (usually) perpetually the nineteen fifties & there are little or no people who are obvious minority or non-European races, & apparently men were real men, & women did the cooking & cleaning (obviously knowing their place & not thinking about burning bras or anything deviant or commie).

The British tabloid & right-wing press, the Daily Mail particularly (no surprise there!), often takes (& promotes) this rather bizarre alternate reality back to an even further time. This manifests itself as some form of ontologically constructed Victorian Britain Era paradigm. I suppose in most of the Mail's usually psychotic & often paranoid reader's minds this was a time when, apparently, there was no crime, women knew their place, more importantly the proles knew their place & the glorious British Empire ruled the world & everyone in the universe was happy, & indeed happy to be ruled by that most benevolent & pacifist of Empires ruling directly from Whitehall.

It almost amounts to a chocolate box image of an idealised Britain that never actually existed & yet inexplicably is growing paradigmatically in the popular imagination with an astonishing speed. Interestingly, statistics indicate that the overall homicide & crime rate was actually higher in the late nineteenth century per capita than now, notwithstanding the terrible contradistinction between wealth & poverty that existed in the wealthiest country on the face of the planet at that time. I have a feeling that notions such as this 'alternative paradigm' were in Breivik's incredibly troubled mind as he wrote his manifesto & ultimately prepared for the terrible atrocity that he eventually committed.

He was certainly also a misogynist of sorts & my cynical mind seems to want to perceive something tragically Freudian in all of this & wonder if Breivik just had issues with his own sexuality, or possibly some form of deranged Oedipus complex. Which may inevitably have aided & abetted or projected his hatred & frustrations, with the attendant development of an illogical xenophobia, onto an immigrant community via an obsession with right-wing mythologies & fantasies.

I personally don't think that the EDL are a serious terrorist threat & are really only a collection of pub racists & football hooligan firms. The BNP consider themselves too mainstream politically now & equally don't seem to be any real terror threat. In fact, they have actually actively appealed to other ethnic groups & have supposedly accepted Afro-Caribbean, Sikh & Hindu members. The motivation for some Sikhs & Hindus to identify with these type of organisations may be from a long history of friction & violence between Muslims & themselves from their original respective homelands. Obviously, the better educated members of the BNP know this history of conflict, & are manipulating knowledge of it for their own peculiar ends.