Nihilist Theology

[libernaut]

Just curious what everyone thinks about NIHILISM. the belief in nothing, as a theology in itself. I just finished a book on it, which had some remarkable things to say. It was written by a man who first turned to nihilism then became completely devout Christian realizing the error in his ways.



"We shall see that destruction is an indespensible item in the program of Nihilism, and further that it is the most unequivocal expression of the worship of Nothingness that lies at the center of the Nihilist "theology." The Nihilism of Destruction is not an exaggeration, it is rather a fulfillment of the deepest aim of all Nihilism. In it Nihilism has assumed its most terrible, but its truest form; in it the face of Nothingness discards its masks and stands revealed in all its nakedness." - Eugene (Fr. Seraphim) Rose from Nihilism: the root of the revolution of the modern age

[G L Wilson]

The nihilist doesn't worship nothingness - he hates it most purely.

[libernaut]

interesting point. Worship would mean gives worth to something, but since there is not worth of value, I suppose they wouldn't.

[The Atheist]

Just curious what everyone thinks about NIHILISM.

Perfectly true, but meaningless to people not also nihilists.

I'm going to state the qualifier that is as long as you are using nihilism in the philosophical sense of life being without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.

On that basis, I think it's an inescapable conclusion, but the imperative word in it for me is "objective". What nihilism ignores is that we do have subjective meaning, because we can think for ourselves and have not just selfish genes, but selfish minds as well.

The bloke whose book you read makes a huge category error, which is why it isn't hard to see him becoming a born-again christian:

"We shall see that destruction is an indespensible item in the program of Nihilism"

That is just blatant garbage.

Like many christians, he is deliberately ignoring that same fact that someone without belief in fairies can easily make a subjective judgement on a purpose. In every case of theoretical nihilists I know (many) not one of them has any desire to wipe out non-nihilists.

I'm scratching through my memory banks, but I can't recall the last time a nihilist was a suicide bomber.

and further that it is the most unequivocal expression of the worship of Nothingness that lies at the center of the Nihilist "theology."

Wilson has it, plus you would only need to read that sentence once to know the man who wrote it is both delusional and making it up as he goes along. Worship? Theology?

I'd like to do a comparison of the collection plate at his church versus the one at the One True Church of Nihilism. Errrr... where the hell is that church?

The Nihilism of Destruction is not an exaggeration, it is rather a fulfillment of the deepest aim of all Nihilism. In it Nihilism has assumed its most terrible, but its truest form; in it the face of Nothingness discards its masks and stands revealed in all its nakedness." - Eugene (Fr. Seraphim) Rose from Nihilism: the root of the revolution of the modern age

Stock standard "people who don't believe in my fairy are Teh Evil and want to drink your baby's blood because it has no soul".

The man's an idiot.

[G L Wilson]

The man's an idiot.

I'm afraid so. The nihilist doesn't create nothingness, he lives with it.

[libernaut]

thanks for your insights.

But as far as nihilism and destruction go, wouldn't that make sense considering destroying something is essentially breaking it down further into nothing?

For example, rather than suicide bombers, a drug addict who slowly destroys himself, is this not somewhat of a nihilistic way of life?

[G L Wilson]

thanks for your insights.

But as far as nihilism and destruction go, wouldn't that make sense considering destroying something is essentially breaking it down further into nothing?

For example, rather than suicide bombers, a drug addict who slowly destroys himself, is this not somewhat of a nihilistic way of life?

I agree that it is. The drug acts as nothing.

[The Atheist]

But as far as nihilism and destruction go, wouldn't that make sense considering destroying something is essentially breaking it down further into nothing?

Not really, no. Destroying something is done for a cause, which a nihilist wouldn't be part of. Why would a nihilist want to destroy something? The act of desctruction is still an act.


For example, rather than suicide bombers, a drug addict who slowly destroys himself, is this not somewhat of a nihilistic way of life?

I don't think so, no. The drug addiction is material, so it becomes a need and works exactly the opposite to nihilism, which is a philosophy rather than a lifestyle. Nihilism isn't about self-destruction either.

[G L Wilson]

I don't think so, no. The drug addiction is material, so it becomes a need and works exactly the opposite to nihilism, which is a philosophy rather than a lifestyle. Nihilism isn't about self-destruction either.

Nihilism is all about self-destruction, I think.

[The Atheist]

Nihilism is all about self-destruction, I think.

Not here. That's why I stated at the start that I am talking about nihilism with this meaning:

life being without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value

Nothing to do with self-destruction, just a perfectly reasonable position to have.

[G L Wilson]

Not here. That's why I stated at the start that I am talking about nihilism with this meaning:

life being without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value

Nothing to do with self-destruction, just a perfectly reasonable position to have.

You go too far, sir, what is reasonable about nihilism?

[The Atheist]

You go too far, sir, what is reasonable about nihilism?

Already answered, in post #4 in this thread.

[G L Wilson]

Already answered, in post #4 in this thread.

Nihilism is a church?

[cyberbob]

I don't think that nihilism would see the need to destroy anything because in its view there is no reason to destroy anything.

Evil might want to destroy good and good might want to destroy evil, but to the nihilist these are imaginary terms.

In fact a nihilist may not even believe in a the word "destruction". A theist may believe that secularism is destroying morality or a virtuous way of life and a militant atheist may believe that religion is destroying knowledge and progress, but to a nihilist these ideas are just arbitrary and one choice is just as good as the other and neither choice does any real good at all.

[G L Wilson]

Resignation. It sounds like a Christian.

[Hawkman]

I used to be a nihilist but I had to give it up because I couldn't really believe in it. Surely the true nihilist in fact does nothing. If he doesn't believe in anything he can have no desires, no will, either to create or destroy. He doesn't believe in people or things or fantasy. He might have imagination, but he will dismiss his imaginings as being futile. Essentially, his philosophy is, "What's the point?"

The truly committed Nihilist will die of starvation and dehydration. It is quite literally, a dead end philosophy...

[G L Wilson]

I used to be a nihilist but I had to give it up because I couldn't really believe in it.

LOL...very funny.

[Panglossian]

My personal attitude to nihilism is this:

[Calidore]

I used to be a nihilist but I had to give it up because I couldn't really believe in it.

And then you joined an anarchist organization? :-)

[Hawkman]

Never in a million years! Anyway, How can you have organized anarchists? What would they do, get together in groups and talk about disbanding? ;)

[Panglossian]

"When you look up into the night sky, it seems like you can see a lot of stars. There are about 2,500 stars visible to the naked eye at any one point at any one time on the Earth, and 5,800 to 8,000 total visible stars. But this is a very tiny fraction of the stars the Milky Way is thought to have. Astronomers estimate that there are *200 billion to 400 billion* stars contained within the Milky Way."


It's difficult not to be nihilistic after comprehending that. :cold:

[Tlaoc]

I don't understand the big deal people make out of the idea whether or not life has any intrinsic value. As far as it's at all relevant, the meaning of life is what you ascribe to it. The meaning of life is life itself.

No matter what metaphysical framework you subscribe to, you still don't really escape the question why such a framework even if it is true, gives existence any objective/intrinsic value.

Much of what I have come to think about this subject hs been greatly influenced by Camus's writings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udk0vRXGLlA


Just curious what everyone thinks about NIHILISM

to be blunt, I think it's the inescapable logical conclusion. However when it comes to the day to day living of one's life, it's ultimately irrelevant and only as depressing as you choose it to be.

[Alexander III]

"When you look up into the night sky, it seems like you can see a lot of stars. There are about 2,500 stars visible to the naked eye at any one point at any one time on the Earth, and 5,800 to 8,000 total visible stars. But this is a very tiny fraction of the stars the Milky Way is thought to have. Astronomers estimate that there are *200 billion to 400 billion* stars contained within the Milky Way."


It's difficult not to be nihilistic after comprehending that. :cold:

Hehe, I would say the complete opposite - after comprehending that, it is difficult to be nihilistic.

[Tlaoc]

Hehe, I would say the complete opposite - after comprehending that, it is difficult to be nihilistic.


Hence the power of perspective, as what I was saying. It really boils down to how you choose to look at things.

[Varenne Rodin]

I used to be a nihilist but I had to give it up because I couldn't really believe in it. Surely the true nihilist in fact does nothing. If he doesn't believe in anything he can have no desires, no will, either to create or destroy. He doesn't believe in people or things or fantasy. He might have imagination, but he will dismiss his imaginings as being futile. Essentially, his philosophy is, "What's the point?"

The truly committed Nihilist will die of starvation and dehydration. It is quite literally, a dead end philosophy...

It's interesting you mention starvation and dehydration. I am quite frequently a Nihilist. Occasionally I will entertain the flimsy idea that I could be doing things to help future generations of humans to progress toward...no idea what, better space travel maybe? Art appreciation? Increased longevity? Even those future happenings are ultimately meaningless in the long run. Sometimes I am distracted enough to enjoy existing (not so nihilistic).

On many occasions I have not had will to do anything. It is not depression, it's just that it is not necessary for me to be engaging anything or anyone or myself. I stop eating and drinking during those times, for days. I am challenged by the human body's physical defense mechanisms. Not eating or drinking lowers blood pressure, which makes a person freezing cold. During such a time, I begin to shiver uncontrollably. This raises urges to do something, compounded by the fact that I live with people who will force me to see to my welfare.

So I go through the motions. I amuse myself. That author's assertion that nihilism is destructive to more than just the nihilist is funny. I see no purpose in life, no meaning, and I've never had an urge to destroy the world.

I posit that it is the Christian mind that seeks to destroy possibilities that could render them inconsequential. A defense mechanism, as someone pointed out.

[Calidore]

Well, if we're going into space, let's go all the way.

Our nearest solar neighbor is Alpha Centauri, about four light-years away.

Our galaxy is about 100,000 light-years across and contains (estimated) up to 400 billion stars.

Our nearest galactic neighbor is Andromeda, roughly 2.5 million light-years away.

With that visual in mind, here's the Hubble Ultra Deep Field. If it looks at first glance like a star map, look again. Those are galaxies, about 10,000 of them. And that's just a small area of sky.

I doubt we'll ever run out of things to learn.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/56533main_MM_image_feature_142_jwfull.jpg

[Varenne Rodin]

That's beautiful. I wish we could go to those places.

[Hawkman]

On many occasions I have not had will to do anything. It is not depression, it's just that it is not necessary for me to be engaging anything or anyone or myself. I stop eating and drinking during those times, for days. I am challenged by the human body's physical defense mechanisms. Not eating or drinking lowers blood pressure, which makes a person freezing cold. During such a time, I begin to shiver uncontrollably. This raises urges to do something, compounded by the fact that I live with people who will force me to see to my welfare.



To be honest, it sounds a bit like depression to me. If you are capable of the kunst wille I would have to say that you were not a Nihilist. :) Bi=polar, maybe.

Anyway, I'm very glad to hear that you have people around you who are so supportive.

Live and be well - H

[Calidore]

Sounds a lot like depression to me. If you're sitting around for days without the will to do anything, plus actually harming yourself, whether actively or, as above, passively by extreme fasting, and you need people to "force you to see to your welfare," that's textbook depression.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'm not depressed. I don't hate life. I don't feel sad. I don't want to harm myself, I just don't care if I am harmed. Not eating was not a willful act, I can see how it might be viewed that way. I just wasn't interested.

I'm not bi-polar either. For one thing, that's a pseudo ailment. I don't have extreme highs and extreme lows. If anything, I'm bored. :D

[Panglossian]

Gorgeous galaxies, vast universe ... The best of all possible universes :Chevy_anim: - Still makes me feel nihilistic :cold:

[Hawkman]

I'm not depressed. I don't hate life. I don't feel sad. I don't want to harm myself, I just don't care if I am harmed. Not eating was not a willful act, I can see how it might be viewed that way. I just wasn't interested.

I'm not bi-polar either. For one thing, that's a pseudo ailment. I don't have extreme highs and extreme lows. If anything, I'm bored. :D

I once heard a wise man say, "Boredom is rage spread thin." You're obviously not bored at the moment - lol

Live and be well - H

[Varenne Rodin]

There's a Buddhist story (perhaps several stories) of a man who sheds all of his possessions and goes into the woods. Once there, he sits to meditate. He is attempting to achieve nothingness, he is also pursuing nirvana. He does not eat. He does not drink. He fasts for many years. Free from attachment, he reaches a state of enlightenment and departs his human form.

I'm not a Buddhist. I don't expect to continue on in any way after this life. I don't claim to be a Nihilist, aside from my intention to embrace nothingness. It isn't clinical depression in any sense, but I do look forward to the closure of my existence. It is eventual. Whether I facilitate it or not is unimportant.

[cl154576]

I'm not depressed. I don't hate life. I don't feel sad. I don't want to harm myself, I just don't care if I am harmed. Not eating was not a willful act, I can see how it might be viewed that way. I just wasn't interested.

I'm not bi-polar either. For one thing, that's a pseudo ailment. I don't have extreme highs and extreme lows. If anything, I'm bored. :D

Depression doesn't have to involve hating life, feeling sad, or wanting to harm oneself. It can be just a loss of interest in life. But the term "depression" doesn't mean much anyway.

Sometimes I feel like nothing in life has any meaning, that nothing is right or wrong; I go out of my way to hurt others, and I exult in my apathy to their feelings ... That exultation is the lowest, most depraved thing I've ever felt and it makes me ashamed to remember it, but is the idea nihilistic?

[Varenne Rodin]

Depression doesn't have to involve hating life, feeling sad, or wanting to harm oneself. It can be just a loss of interest in life. But the term "depression" doesn't mean much anyway.

Sometimes I feel like nothing in life has any meaning, that nothing is right or wrong; I go out of my way to hurt others, and I exult in my apathy to their feelings ... That exultation is the lowest, most depraved thing I've ever felt and it makes me ashamed to remember it, but is the idea nihilistic?

That's a good question, Cl. I was saying I am somewhat nihilistic because of the position of nihilism as stated by The Atheist. It is most definitely my opinion. I don't feel the urge to lash out at others. I can understand that feeling, but I would much rather avoid someone if I think my words and actions will cause them pain. That's an issue of controlling emotional impulses. I don't think what you are experiencing is nihilism. I'm no expert, and I can't guess what you go through, but aggression seems to require too much effort to be nihilistic.

[YesNo]

"When you look up into the night sky, it seems like you can see a lot of stars. There are about 2,500 stars visible to the naked eye at any one point at any one time on the Earth, and 5,800 to 8,000 total visible stars. But this is a very tiny fraction of the stars the Milky Way is thought to have. Astronomers estimate that there are *200 billion to 400 billion* stars contained within the Milky Way."


It's difficult not to be nihilistic after comprehending that. :cold:
Nihilism and the religious traditions I've looked at share a lot in common. Nihilism claims that life has no "objective meaning" as the Atheist defined it earlier in this thread. But that is what many religious traditions say as well. Any meaning one subjectively imposes on the objective world through lust or anger will lead to frustration.

Here, for example, is Chapter 2:62-63 (Eknath Easwaran translation) of the Bhagavad Gita warning one about finding meaning in the objective "sense objects" through subjective "attachment":


When you keep thinking about sense objects, attachment comes. Attachment breeds desire, the lust of possession that burns to anger. Anger clouds the judgment; you can no longer learn from past mistakes. Lost is the power to choose between what is wise and what is unwise and your life is utter waste."

It is basically an agreement with Nihilism regarding the objective grasping for meaning through subjective techniques. Where this goes beyond Nihilism is in the next two verses:


But when you move amidst the world of sense, free from attachment and aversion alike, there comes the peace in which all sorrows end, and you live in the wisdom of the Self.

Nihilism doesn't take you that far. But how does one know that you can go further? Well, it's simple. You just look, or as Alexander III mentions:


Hehe, I would say the complete opposite - after comprehending that, it is difficult to be nihilistic.

[Panglossian]

Nihilism doesn't take you that far. But how does one know that you can go further? Well, it's simple. You just look

It's okay, I'm not searching for an escape route out of my nihilistic feelings. I just accept that I have them. But can a person live it, this so-called "mindfulness", this "choiceless awareness", this "non-attachment" - can we be it, really, truly?

I suspect a nihilist might say that trying to *go beyond* nihilism is just another form of self-deception, no matter how sublime the justification.

[YesNo]

It's okay, I'm not searching for an escape route out of my nihilistic feelings. I just accept that I have them. But can a person live it, this so-called "mindfulness", this "choiceless awareness", this "non-attachment" - can we be it, really, truly?

I suspect a nihilist might say that trying to *go beyond* nihilism is just another form of self-deception, no matter how sublime the justification.
No doubt a Nihilist would consider it self-deception.

However, whatever a Nihilist would consider to be objective reality, and I don't think that would go beyond the space-time matter-energy universe that science recognizes, and then rejects that as having any meaning is the same kind of rejection that a religious tradition makes.

Whether you can really truly do what the Bhagavada Gita suggests is possible or some other religious tradition might offer along the same lines is up to you to decide. I am not offering an alternative to Nihilism, just mentioning that it seems similar to what these mainstream religions also accept.

[G L Wilson]

No doubt a Nihilist would consider it self-deception.

However, whatever a Nihilist would consider to be objective reality, and I don't think that would go beyond the space-time matter-energy universe that science recognizes, and then rejects that as having any meaning is the same kind of rejection that a religious tradition makes.

Whether you can really truly do what the Bhagavada Gita suggests is possible or some other religious tradition might offer along the same lines is up to you to decide. I am not offering an alternative to Nihilism, just mentioning that it seems similar to what these mainstream religions also accept.

The nihilism of mainstream religion has not been proven, and it is never likely to be.