Why Does The Devil Punish Sinners?

[cyberbob]

:devil: :reddevil: :devil:

It seems to me that Satan is a conspirator of God, not an enemy.

Shouldn't the devil reward sinners so that they want to go to hell? It's the basic principle of incentive theory: if you want someone to behave in a certain way, provide an incentive for them to do so.

People already seem to prefer sinning since they need a reward (salvation) to do the opposite. So if the reward was equally good for sinning, then wouldn't everybody do it? At least in sins that don't seem to harm anyone ( e.g. raunchy sex, worshipping false idols, doing drugs [are drugs a sin?] etc.)

So it seems to me that the devil is actually God's prison warden. I see no proof that the devil tempts people to sin. Freaky sex feels good. Stealing makes you richer. Murder and lying usually have benefits. The tempations of sins are inherent. I've committed many sins and never have my actions come at the behest of some devil popping up and daring me. Most people who commit heinous crimes don't blame it on the devil. In fact, I've heard more people blame God than the devil.

Anyway, can anyone explain why the devil punishes sinners? If he wanted people to lie, cheat, steal, and have sex then why wouldn't he reward them for these actions? It makes no sense to deincentivize (made up word) an already tempting thing by implementing really scary punishments for it.

[dwdean]

i would submit to you that maybe the Devil does not have the power to reward humans for their actions...?

[G L Wilson]

i would submit to you that maybe the Devil does not have the power to reward humans for their actions...?

The Devil doesn't exist maybe, he may be maybe; if he is, he is a fool and botched everything.

[cyberbob]

i would submit to you that maybe the Devil does not have the power to reward humans for their actions...?

What does that mean? That he's physically incapable of doing something like the robots of Isaac Asimov? That he doesn't have the authority over his minions to tell them to stop sodomizing Hitler?

If so, then why is he considered evil? He has no choice but to do what he does. He is the equivalent of an assembly line robot making weapons of war; he's just doing what he was programmed to do and literally has no choice.

The real evil would be the creator of the machine. The user of the tool. In this case God. In this case the devil is a conspirator of God (in fact he's just a pawn).

[G L Wilson]

What does that mean? That he's physically incapable of doing something like the robots of Isaac Asimov? That he doesn't have the authority over his minions to tell them to stop sodomizing Hitler?

If so, then why is he considered evil? He has no choice but to do what he does. He is the equivalent of an assembly line robot making weapons of war; he's just doing what he was programmed to do and literally has no choice.

The real evil would be the creator of the machine. The user of the tool. In this case God. In this case the devil is a conspirator of God (in fact he's just a pawn).

God allows Satan to do things because he can't be bothered with the idiot.

[thebagman]

G L Wilson, I don't really understand your religious/spiritual views. Are you a Christian or not?

[G L Wilson]

G L Wilson, I don't really understand your religious/spiritual views. Are you a Christian or not?

I am an atheist who likes to have fun.

[dwdean]

G L Wilson, I don't really understand your religious/spiritual views. Are you a Christian or not?

bagman, really, how necessary was that question?

what i meant by my previous post is that God rewards His people with things; heaven, salvation from Hell, fellowship with Himself. God can do this because He has the power to do so.
does Satan have the power to reward his followers accordingly?
i would say that if he did possess such power, why would he not so use it in a way benefitting his regime?

[The Atheist]

Shouldn't the devil reward sinners so that they want to go to hell? It's the basic principle of incentive theory: if you want someone to behave in a certain way, provide an incentive for them to do so.

People already seem to prefer sinning since they need a reward (salvation) to do the opposite. So if the reward was equally good for sinning, then wouldn't everybody do it? At least in sins that don't seem to harm anyone ( e.g. raunchy sex, worshipping false idols, doing drugs [are drugs a sin?] etc.)

So it seems to me that the devil is actually God's prison warden. I see no proof that the devil tempts people to sin. Freaky sex feels good. Stealing makes you richer. Murder and lying usually have benefits. The tempations of sins are inherent. I've committed many sins and never have my actions come at the behest of some devil popping up and daring me. Most people who commit heinous crimes don't blame it on the devil. In fact, I've heard more people blame God than the devil.

Anyway, can anyone explain why the devil punishes sinners? If he wanted people to lie, cheat, steal, and have sex then why wouldn't he reward them for these actions? It makes no sense to deincentivize (made up word) an already tempting thing by implementing really scary punishments for it.

You are quite correct.

Unfortunately, the idea that Satan punishes sinners is a non-scripture based idea that has popularity in rare sects only, which makes it little more than straw.

[G L Wilson]

bagman, really, how necessary was that question?

what i meant by my previous post is that God rewards His people with things; heaven, salvation from Hell, fellowship with Himself. God can do this because He has the power to do so.
does Satan have the power to reward his followers accordingly?
i would say that if he did possess such power, why would he not so use it in a way benefitting his regime?

Because Satan is a cluster bomb, he goes off all over the place.

[L.M. The Third]

Pray, where does scripture ever say that the devil is in charge of "hell"? Rather it states that it is "prepared for the devil and his angels". (Matthew 25:41) The concept of the devil punishing sinners is but one of many ideas on "hell" that are derived from paganism, not from scripture.

[G L Wilson]

Pray, where does scripture ever say that the devil is in charge of "hell"? Rather it states that it is "prepared for the devil and his angels". (Matthew 25:41) The concept of the devil punishing sinners is but one of many ideas on "hell" that are derived from paganism, not from scripture.

In the New Testament, the Devil comes into his own. Can you deny this?

[thebagman]

bagman, really, how necessary was that question?

it wasn't necessary i was just curious. im sorry if it sounded antagonistic.

[G L Wilson]

it wasn't necessary i was just curious. im sorry if it sounded antagonistic.

You didn't sound aggressive to me. I could see how you could be confused.

[libernaut]

L.M. The Third: Where in Pagan literature do you find a devil, demons, or any such beings punishing "sinners". Pagans were primarily polytheistic, believing in many gods, and really didn't distinguish between "God" and "Devil", rather saw all divine beings as having "free will". And the concept of sin in paganism? I'm not too clear about this one but I am pretty sure its a primarily judeo-christian concept.

[L.M. The Third]

In the New Testament, the Devil comes into his own. Can you deny this?

May I ask for examples on which you base this?

libernaut: Although I have heard/read of how certain theories on hell/purgatory have their basis in Paganism, I can't find an exact reference where I'm looking for it. Perhaps I did use the word Paganism wrongly to refer certain principles, with an origin in Paganism rather than Scripture, which have their reasonable conclusion in the theories of hell/punishment espoused by some Christians today.

[G L Wilson]

May I ask for examples on which you base this?

Matthew 4: 1 - 11.

Can you find one example like it in the Old Testament?

[Panglossian]

Surely Satan is bored of herding sinners by now. I imagine Him sitting on His throne in Hell, head in hands, thinking: "Why is God so relentlessly judgmental!"

[The Atheist]

Surely Satan is bored of herding sinners by now. I imagine Him sitting on His throne in Hell, head in hands, thinking: "Why is God so relentlessly judgmental!"

Stolen. I like that.

[BienvenuJDC]

In the New Testament, the Devil comes into his own. Can you deny this?

What do you mean by "the devil comes into his own?"

[libernaut]

Yeah, G L Wilson what do you mean by that? And you should expand a little bit, "how" did the devil come into his own, in what ways? any examples? I think I get what you are saying but am unsure and it is unclear.

[G L Wilson]

Yeah, G L Wilson what do you mean by that? And you should expand a little bit, "how" did the devil come into his own, in what ways? any examples? I think I get what you are saying but am unsure and it is unclear.

In the Old Testament, Satan is nothing more than a public servant for Heaven. He acts as an obstacle in the path of righteousness.

In the New Testament, Satan is totally corrupted. He acts with volition to destroy righteousness utterly, he is the vile enemy of a great God.

I think that it is a grave mistake not to see the Devil as the Old Testament scribes saw him because an increase in religious fanaticism is a bad thing for everyone. Simple humanity spreads a dread across the minds of men, women and children which essentially cowers them. It is appalling.

[The Atheist]

I think that it is a grave mistake not to see the Devil as the Old Testament scribes saw him because an increase in religious fanaticism is a bad thing for everyone. Simple humanity spreads a dread across the minds of men, women and children which essentially cowers them. It is appalling.

Except the idea that an OT Satan puts people off is proven incorrect by life in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

The religions that are growing fastest are those that do have an OT Devil and are therefore inherently fanatical.

The only "traditional" church growing is the Roman Catholic one, and that's entirely down to expansion in Africa and Asia while their bases in Europe erode.

[PoeticPassions]

This is one of those carrots and sticks arguments (or questions). Which works better: carrots or sticks? Usually it is a combination of both... but I guess the Devil hasn't caught on and only uses sticks :reddevil::reddevil:

[The Atheist]

This is one of those carrots and sticks arguments (or questions). Which works better: carrots or sticks? Usually it is a combination of both... but I guess the Devil hasn't caught on and only uses sticks :reddevil::reddevil:

Ah, but he has a captive audience.

[G L Wilson]

A vain god pleases vain people, why wouldn't he?

[Hand_Of_God]

:devil: :reddevil: :devil:

It seems to me that Satan is a conspirator of God, not an enemy.

Shouldn't the devil reward sinners so that they want to go to hell? It's the basic principle of incentive theory: if you want someone to behave in a certain way, provide an incentive for them to do so.

People already seem to prefer sinning since they need a reward (salvation) to do the opposite. So if the reward was equally good for sinning, then wouldn't everybody do it? At least in sins that don't seem to harm anyone ( e.g. raunchy sex, worshipping false idols, doing drugs [are drugs a sin?] etc.)

So it seems to me that the devil is actually God's prison warden. I see no proof that the devil tempts people to sin. Freaky sex feels good. Stealing makes you richer. Murder and lying usually have benefits. The tempations of sins are inherent. I've committed many sins and never have my actions come at the behest of some devil popping up and daring me. Most people who commit heinous crimes don't blame it on the devil. In fact, I've heard more people blame God than the devil.

Anyway, can anyone explain why the devil punishes sinners? If he wanted people to lie, cheat, steal, and have sex then why wouldn't he reward them for these actions? It makes no sense to deincentivize (made up word) an already tempting thing by implementing really scary punishments for it.

I think because Satan is envious and hates mankind, the sin is only the way to turn people away from God, so he can torture them. In this sense he is not a tool of God (strictly speaking), since he would torture every human being if he could, but he can torture only those who are not with God.

[togre]

The common idea of the devil as the warden of hell or a mini-god with power over a lesser kingdom is from pop culture and not from the Bible. If you want to describe hell as a prison the devil is more akin to the most notorious prisoner than to the warden.

The best insight I ever had into the 'why' of the devil's behavior (if "he's evil" should ever be insufficient) was something I saw in a preschool classroom. A 3 or 4 year-old had been misbehaving quite severely and had finally reached the point of being physically escorted to a Time-Out spot. As he was lead away he tried to hit every classmate or throw every toy or mess up every activity he could. They hadn't harmed or bothered him, but in his anger he lashed out in spiteful destruction.

It's not necessarily a rational reason, but the devil's actions fit well with what the Bible says he is--a failed rebel who's just punishment is certain and draws ever nearer. And so in malice, in spite he lashes out at God trying to deny or defy him. He lashes out at believers, trying to wrench them free from the salvation they've been given, trying to torment them if he can't succeed at this. He lashes out at unbelievers or even his followers relishing any suffering and yet always miserable himself. Think of a thug or gangster who belittles or abuses not only his enemies but his soldiers or lieutenants because of his twisted nature. That's what he is--evil.

[G L Wilson]

The common idea of the devil as the warden of hell or a mini-god with power over a lesser kingdom is from pop culture and not from the Bible. If you want to describe hell as a prison the devil is more akin to the most notorious prisoner than to the warden.

The best insight I ever had into the 'why' of the devil's behavior (if "he's evil" should ever be insufficient) was something I saw in a preschool classroom. A 3 or 4 year-old had been misbehaving quite severely and had finally reached the point of being physically escorted to a Time-Out spot. As he was lead away he tried to hit every classmate or throw every toy or mess up every activity he could. They hadn't harmed or bothered him, but in his anger he lashed out in spiteful destruction.

It's not necessarily a rational reason, but the devil's actions fit well with what the Bible says he is--a failed rebel who's just punishment is certain and draws ever nearer. And so in malice, in spite he lashes out at God trying to deny or defy him. He lashes out at believers, trying to wrench them free from the salvation they've been given, trying to torment them if he can't succeed at this. He lashes out at unbelievers or even his followers relishing any suffering and yet always miserable himself. Think of a thug or gangster who belittles or abuses not only his enemies but his soldiers or lieutenants because of his twisted nature. That's what he is--evil.

To compare the Devil to a child is sick.

[dwdean]

The common idea of the devil as the warden of hell or a mini-god with power over a lesser kingdom is from pop culture and not from the Bible. If you want to describe hell as a prison the devil is more akin to the most notorious prisoner than to the warden.

The best insight I ever had into the 'why' of the devil's behavior (if "he's evil" should ever be insufficient) was something I saw in a preschool classroom. A 3 or 4 year-old had been misbehaving quite severely and had finally reached the point of being physically escorted to a Time-Out spot. As he was lead away he tried to hit every classmate or throw every toy or mess up every activity he could. They hadn't harmed or bothered him, but in his anger he lashed out in spiteful destruction.

It's not necessarily a rational reason, but the devil's actions fit well with what the Bible says he is--a failed rebel who's just punishment is certain and draws ever nearer. And so in malice, in spite he lashes out at God trying to deny or defy him. He lashes out at believers, trying to wrench them free from the salvation they've been given, trying to torment them if he can't succeed at this. He lashes out at unbelievers or even his followers relishing any suffering and yet always miserable himself. Think of a thug or gangster who belittles or abuses not only his enemies but his soldiers or lieutenants because of his twisted nature. That's what he is--evil.

if the devil is comparable to a child, what does that say of the devil's parent?
we would all agree that the brat you speak of has not been taught properly. the blame rests on both himself and his parents. is the same true of satan and God? if God made all things, didn't he also create satan, therefore becoming his Father? is God an ineffective Father? how did Jesus turn out so well?

[G L Wilson]

Why does the Devil punish sinners? For the pleasure of God and his followers, and for no other reason.

[The Atheist]

Why does the Devil punish sinners? For the pleasure of God and his followers, and for no other reason.

2EZ (I thought I'd write that in children-speak, since the answer's so obvious, and I'm sure you know it, too)

Even the thought of life-after-death only really becomes relevant to those in direct fear of death, so while the sales pitch is great, it will be ignored among the young.

Now, if you introduce a heinously fiendish baddie who will burn you - alleged to be the most painful type of injury, a fact I'd concur with, so far - for a billion years!

And then some, if you don't obey the rules.

No wonder he's so popular. How can you hate a guy who gets the lines he does in the NT and also gets to play Marquis de Sade for eternity with an endless number of victims.

You can't pay for that kind of stuff.

Luckily for liberals, not much of it actually exists in the bible, but it's brilliant for filling the collection plate.

Ergo: like almost all of those kind of stories, he does it for money. Jesus loves that.

[Drkshadow03]

Nah . . .

[G L Wilson]

I say no too.

[Panglossian]

Why doesn't the Devil rebel against his destiny? - Does he not have free will....

[BienvenuJDC]

Why doesn't the Devil rebel against his destiny? - Does he not have free will....

He doesn't have the power to fight it. Or are you supposing that he could try to turn "good"? Maybe it's just in his nature to be evil. Some people just don't want to.

[BienvenuJDC]

Even the thought of life-after-death only really becomes relevant to those in direct fear of death, so while the sales pitch is great, it will be ignored among the young.

Hmmm....totally untrue. Many of the early Christians faced death and were martyred because of their believe in Christ and the afterlife. They didn't fear death, but on the contrary. And there are many young people that follow God. I've noticed that very few of your arguments are established on sound reasoning. Mostly you use opinion....and weak opinions at that.

[The Atheist]

Hmmm....totally untrue. Many of the early Christians faced death and were martyred because of their believe in Christ and the afterlife. They didn't fear death, but on the contrary.

Thanks for making my point for me!

Of course they didn't fear death - they were certain death would be only temporary. Dying in service of the god they believed in was a short-cut to it/his/her heaven.


And there are many young people that follow God.

Yep, it's easy to indoctrinate young minds.

Whether they follow a god, or even the teachings of a god, I remain unconvinced. They certainly follow a church.

If you want to show me a sect of any religion that follows the god, please show me one. In the case of a christian sect this will need to include a complete adherence to the teachings of Jesus, so there will be no rich members or pastors, no fancy churches, not a single member in an armed force of any kind but which teaches and practices tolerance to all, including homosexuals.

I've looked for one of those ever since I read the bible. Yet to find it, so if you know of one, fire away.

I'm glad you raised kids, however, because it does relate to Satan nicely. Have you ever wondered why horror films are rated 18+ only, or why those films' audiences are almost entirely people of age just legal to watch them? Have you ever wondered why kids can get nightmares from scary stories?

Young minds are impressionable, and the impressions which make the greatest impact are often negative ones, and there is nothing more negative than the fundamental Pauline christian devil. This is a guy who is just waiting for a chance to grab your soul, putting temptations in your way all the time.

Satan is indeed a fantastic selling point for churches.

Before the days of fundies breathing brimstone over kids, churches had little involvement by the 18-30 year old demographic.


I've noticed that very few of your arguments are established on sound reasoning. Mostly you use opinion....and weak opinions at that.

I tell you what, Bienvenue - instead of making wild assertions, show me an example of sloppy thinking or reasoning. (Other than "Jesus loves that" which should have been very obviously sarcasm.)

[BienvenuJDC]

I tell you what, Bienvenue - instead of making wild assertions, show me an example of sloppy thinking or reasoning. (Other than "Jesus loves that" which should have been very obviously sarcasm.)

Excuse me, but the wild assertions were made by you...and I just pointed one out. You obviously didn't get it.

You said that Christians feared death.
I pointed to an example (that is established by history) that showed that they didn't fear death. Then you make a wild assertion that it somehow proves your point. And you think that it was a witty comeback.

I don't argue with the unreasonable.

[JuniperWoolf]

You said that Christians feared death.
I pointed to an example (that is established by history) that showed that they didn't fear death.

His point was that people invested in religion IN ORDER TO FREE THEMSELVES of the fear of death. Religion exists because people are afraid to die and religion is the most affective tool available for people to assuage that fear. The fact that some fanatics don't fear death is just evidence that their method works.


And there are many young people that follow God.

Not that many, trust me. Worship of the Christian god is dying fast because people hate the bloody, repressive history associated with that particular theology. Most of the young people that I know who feel that they need spiritual fulfillment are seeking alternatives and since the church isn't allowed to kill us or repress us anymore, it's a rapid process. I can count how many Christians under 50 that I know on my fingers and all of them are the result of their upbringing and not freedom of choice.

[The Atheist]

You said that Christians feared death.
I pointed to an example (that is established by history) that showed that they didn't fear death. Then you make a wild assertion that it somehow proves your point. And you think that it was a witty comeback.

It wasn't intended as a witty comeback, because it was self-explantory. Here it is in simple steps:

I said that without a god, people fear death.

You showed that people with a god don't fear death.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Your statement supports my position.

[BienvenuJDC]

It wasn't intended as a witty comeback, because it was self-explantory. Here it is in simple steps:

I said that without a god, people fear death.

You showed that people with a god don't fear death.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Your statement supports my position.

It seems that you're talking in circles. Your statements are unfounded. Now I would agree that "without God, people fear death." There is much to fear. There are many on their deathbed who begin to question their conclusions about God....and those who have already died...well, they have already seen Him face to face, then it's either fear or comfort.

[G L Wilson]

It seems that you're talking in circles. Your statements are unfounded. Now I would agree that "without God, people fear death." There is much to fear. There are many on their deathbed who begin to question their conclusions about God....and those who have already died...well, they have already seen Him face to face, then it's either fear or comfort.

I am afraid if you met Him that he wouldn't be any kind of comfort to you. He is quite insane, I can tell you.

[Varenne Rodin]

It wasn't intended as a witty comeback, because it was self-explantory. Here it is in simple steps:

I said that without a god, people fear death.

You showed that people with a god don't fear death.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Your statement supports my position.

QED. Haha. Bravo!

[Varenne Rodin]

This is the insane way the whole God/Devil situation was explained to me by a silly church I attended growing up:

When you sin, you block God's infinite love. You close yourself off to it. You commit an act of hatred, an atrocity, which leaves you in a very dark and dangerous place, naked of God's sweet security. He cannot, in your time of sin, protect you from the devil's molestations. The devil is a malevolence that waits for you to cast God's protection off so he can get you into his clutches. The only way to escape him after he has you is to pray God's love shield back around you. To fight the darkness once again with love and light.

I should rewrite the bible. Hot damn, that's pretty! Sin is like Tolkien's one ring. It's tempting, it wields a seductive power. It drains a person and leads them into shadow. Haha. The dark lord can see the one who wears it.

Tolkien's trilogy is more entertaining, for me personally, than fanatic Christian mythology. It's laughable that hobbits, wizards, and elves are obvious fiction, and space god and hell devil are supposed fact. :)

[G L Wilson]

This is the insane way the whole God/Devil situation was explained to me by a silly church I attended growing up:

When you sin, you block God's infinite love. You close yourself off to it. You commit an act of hatred, an atrocity, which leaves you in a very dark and dangerous place, naked of God's sweet security. He cannot, in your time of sin, protect you from the devil's molestations. The devil is a malevolence that waits for you to cast God's protection off so he can get you into his clutches. The only way to escape him after he has you is to pray God's love shield back around you. To fight the darkness once again with love and light.

I should rewrite the bible. Hot damn, that's pretty! Sin is like Tolkien's one ring. It's tempting, it wields a seductive power. It drains a person and leads them into shadow. Haha. The dark lord can see the one who wears it.

Tolkien's trilogy is more entertaining, for me personally, than fanatic Christian mythology. It's laughable that hobbits, wizards, and elves are obvious fiction, and space god and hell devil are supposed fact. :)

But they are facts, Varenne Rodin, in the minds of madmen.

[The Atheist]

I should rewrite the bible.

There have been quite few good ones. I'll see if I can find some links for you.

[G L Wilson]

There have been quite few good ones. I'll see if I can find some links for you.

There's Philip Pullman and his new book.

[Varenne Rodin]

There have been quite few good ones. I'll see if I can find some links for you.

Something to look forward to, Atheist. Thank you.

[Calidore]

There's Philip Pullman and his new book.

What's that one called, and what's it about?

[G L Wilson]

What's that one called, and what's it about?

The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ, it's called. The book provides a new account of the life of Jesus, challenging the Gospels and arguing that the version in the New Testamant was shaped by the apostle Paul. Pullman denies the divinity of Christ in his exploration of the dual nature of Jesus.

I have never read the book. The subject doesn't interest me.

[BienvenuJDC]

The real question that we should be asking is, Why do we punish each other?

[G L Wilson]

The real question that we should be asking is, Why do we punish each other?

Because there is a need.

[Scheherazade]

The real question that we should be asking is, Why do we punish each other?As long as it is consenting adults...

[G L Wilson]

as long as it is consenting adults...

lol. Jks.

[The Atheist]

Something to look forward to, Atheist. Thank you.

This is one of the better ones (http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/24299).

If you want to get really involved in parody, these guys are the ultimate. (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/)

[G L Wilson]

This is one of the better ones (http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/24299).

If you want to get really involved in parody, these guys are the ultimate. (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/)

Landover Baptist Church. I want to worship there.

[Varenne Rodin]

This is one of the better ones (http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/24299).

If you want to get really involved in parody, these guys are the ultimate. (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/)

I love it! This....this makes my day. There are no words (except the ones preceding).

[G L Wilson]

Essentially a parody is light and warm, humane whereas the thing parodied is not.