News of the World.

[prendrelemick]

Anyone else enjoying the specticle of those media untouchables squirming in the spotlight. Perhaps they aren't as powerful as they thought they were.

[Emil Miller]

Anyone else enjoying the specticle of those media untouchables squirming in the spotlight. Perhaps they aren't as powerful as they thought they were.

I don't find anything actually enjoyable about the affair but if it serves to put a spanner in Murdoch's nefarious works then some good will have come of it. I happen to believe that, as with banks, the large media corporations should be broken up; the concentration of too much power in too few hands usually, if not always, leads to abuse. To go further into the discussion would inevitably lead to a breach of the no politics ruling but there is a lot of hypocrisy coming out of Westminster with regard to the behaviour of the press.

[prendrelemick]

I agree its difficult to go into without becoming Political. But I am experiencing schadenfreude at the moment. Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson have ruined many lives and careers between them, claiming the moral highground whilst wallowing in the gutter.

I just wonder what the next revelation will be, how low did they go.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I don't think it will be hard to avoid talking about politics. All you have to do is not talk about politics.

Anyways, I think it's pretty low what they did over there. They should take an example from the USA's media outlets, which are honest, forthright, and ethical. :nod:

[Emil Miller]

I agree its difficult to go into without becoming Political. But I am experiencing schadenfreude at the moment. Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson have ruined many lives and careers between them, claiming the moral highground whilst wallowing in the gutter.

I just wonder what the next revelation will be, how low did they go.

I think it's truly disgraceful that we have reached a stage where nobody's privacy is inviolate. Unfortunately, there is a thin dividing line between the freedom of the press and its abuse. On the one hand we have the necessary revelations about corruption in public life and on the other the illegal intrusion into people's private lives. The public are themselves partly to blame for revelling in gossip about so called celebrities and other people in the public domain but when it comes to hacking into the phones of missing schoolchildren and relatives of soldiers killed in war, something's very rotten at the heart of society. The fact that the police have been selling information to the likes of Newscorp is a further indication of how far the rot has set in.

[prendrelemick]

Seems I was abit hastey naming this thread. As of sunday The News of The World will cease to be published. Rupert Murdoch has sacrificed an entire newspaper and all its staff to try and save Rebekah Brooks.

I find the whole episode uplifting in two ways:-

Those in power are getting a reminder that it is ultimately "The People" who give it to them.

And that in these cynical times our society still knows where to draw lines.


I don't think it will be hard to avoid talking about politics. All you have to do is not talk about politics.

Anyways, I think it's pretty low what they did over there. They should take an example from the USA's media outlets, which are honest, forthright, and ethical. :nod:




The phone hacking is only one part of the affair. There is also the illegal payments to Police Officers for information. And a very strong Political angle, that I won't go into.

[Patrick_Bateman]

Well the paper will cease to exist after this Sunday's edition

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14070733

[Emil Miller]

It's being described as Britain's largest selling newspaper but I had almost forgotten its existence. If, as I recall, it had remained the scandal sheet that it was years ago, I find it difficult to believe that people today are still interested in pedophile vicars and scoutmasters which seemed to make up the paper's regular news input. It was a standing joke then and I thought it had gone into decline but apparently that isn't the case.
In any case, Murdoch will simply replace it with a cleaned up version before letting it get back to its old ways. The best way to deal with him is to block his bid for the remainder of Sky.

[prendrelemick]

You're right there brian, the domain name - thesunonsunday.com - was registered 2 days ago. Looks like News International are having a rebranding excercise. They announced last week that NOTW and The Sun were merging journalist and editorial staff.
Looks like Murdoch, the crafty old sod, can still recognise oppotunity in a crisis.

[TheFifthElement]

It's a shame that the people who are paying the penalty aren't the ones who were really responsible. People who weren't in any way connected to the phone hacking are losing their jobs, whilst the likes of Brooks, Coulson and Murdoch remain somehow untouchable.

You've got to wonder how much the closure is motivated by a desire to keep themselves 'clean' for the BSkyB takeover? Let's hope that if it's truly public pressure that closed the paper, that the same public pressure can keep the BSkyB deal at bay.

Actually the whole thing is quite sickening. It's easy to forget that there are real people at the end of this whose privacy has been violated - whether that's a politician or a celebrity or just an ordinary guy who happens to be somehow connected to something, it's not right. One of our friends had his phone messages hacked, as well as his computer, and the police knew about it and did nothing (maybe some self interest there - he was a whistleblower) and there's some suspicion that maybe it went further than the police or the paper.

Can't say I'm sad to see NoTW go, it was a slime rag. But it'll probably be replaced by an equally virulent slime rag and nothing, in the long term, will change. I'm with Emil that we really need to prevent newspapers being too big or in a single or dominated ownership. If we want a free and independent press it needs to be that. One owner, one vision, one ideology: that's not free and independent, it's personal propaganda. It's time that came to an end.

[prendrelemick]

I can't say I'm sad either. All those News ot World journalists, who insisted that life on the dole was scandalously comfortable, will see how true it is.


This thing may be about the BskyB takeover. News International have to show they are "fit and proper persons" to own such a large part of the media, or OFCOM can in theory block them. Are they hoping closing NOTW will make them cleaner?

Rebekah Brooks perhaps is being kept in place as a buffer between James Murdoch and the scandal. He has admitted to doing some things he now regrets.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

Andy Coulson is to be arrested tommorrow on perjury charges relating to the Tom Sheridan trial.

HOLD IT AGAIN!

Sun journos are walking out in sympathy! This is just great. It feels like Drop the Dead Donkey.

[Emil Miller]

I can't say I'm sad either. All those News ot World journalists, who insisted that life on the dole was scandalously comfortable, will see how true it is.


This thing may be about the BskyB takeover. News International have to show they are "fit and proper persons" to own such a large part of the media, or OFCOM can in theory block them. Are they hoping closing NOTW will make them cleaner?

Rebekah Brooks perhaps is being kept in place as a buffer between James Murdoch and the scandal. He has admitted to doing some things he now regrets.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

Andy Coulson is to be arrested tommorrow on perjury charges relating to the Tom Sheridan trial.

HOLD IT AGAIN!

Sun journos are walking out in sympathy! This is just great. It feels like Drop the Dead Donkey.

I just checked with BBC LIVE and they deny the Coulson story.
Perhaps 'you know who' has intervened.

[prendrelemick]

Gawd! I started this thread thinking we could have a leisurely discussion about press freedom and responsibility and hubris and society and privacy and such, but its all kicked off.

By the way Cameron is at the Police Bravery Awards tonight, Hosted by The Sun. You couldn't make it up.

[TheFifthElement]

Perhaps 'you know who' has intervened.
I knew Voldemort must be behind it :D

[Emil Miller]

By the way Cameron is at the Police Bravery Awards tonight, Hosted by The Sun. You couldn't make it up.

:smilielol5:

[LitNetIsGreat]

I can't say I'm sad either. All those News ot World journalists, who insisted that life on the dole was scandalously comfortable, will see how true it is.

Good point.



By the way Cameron is at the Police Bravery Awards tonight, Hosted by The Sun. You couldn't make it up.

Jesus.

Personally I won't be satisfied until the people responsible are in prison. That basically means I won't be satisfied, as usual.

Have to watch Question Time tonight I think, even though it always makes me mad...

[MystyrMystyry]

Apparently all the big advertisers pulled the plug on their association. And with 4000 plus lawsuits looming it was just going to be more cost effective to close it down.

4000 x 150 000 = 600 000 000

[prendrelemick]

Hugh Grant is on Question Time. He scored his own scoop this week using a hidden tape recorder on an ex NOTW pap. He got stuff no journalist managed to get.

[TheFifthElement]

Is there anyone in UK not watching Question Time right now?

[prendrelemick]

I'm trying to watch Newsnight as well. Poor old Kirsty is ploughing a lonely furrow over there.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Watched 30 min of Question Time and then I had to turn off because I was getting too angry (as predicted). The phrase - they are all (*******) bent, comes to mind, as predicted, ...

[prendrelemick]

"He got rid of the wrong red top" Classic!



(Rebekah Brooks has red Hair)


At least the politicians got a rough ride tonight.

[Emil Miller]

Watched 30 min of Question Time and then I had to turn off because I was getting too angry (as predicted). The phrase - they are all (*******) bent, comes to mind, as predicted, ...

I note that Coulson has really been arrested this morning. I gave up on Question Time long ago as it's the usual BBC line up of old political pussy cats and left wing pundits i.e. the kind of people who meet at dinner parties and decide how you and I are going to live. You've never seen such playing to the gallery in all your life. They have about as much sincerity as Elvis Presley singing 'In the Ghetto'.

[Ecurb]

I hope this doesn't put an end to the celebrity sex scandal stories!

[prendrelemick]

I note that Coulson has really been arrested this morning. I gave up on Question Time long ago as it's the usual BBC line up of old political pussy cats and left wing pundits i.e. the kind of people who meet at dinner parties and decide how you and I are going to live. You've never seen such playing to the gallery in all your life. They have about as much sincerity as Elvis Presley singing 'In the Ghetto'.


It's the first time I've watched it all the way through for years.

[Paulclem]

It's the first time I've watched it all the way through for years.

I have difficulty watching it too. It's the sincerity - or rather the lack of it. I find it difficult to listen topoliticians with their pat formulas and ways round questions.

The most sincere thing I've seen for a while was when John Prescott bopped that mullett headed egg thrower.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Likewise, I can rarely get to half an hour of it for the same reasons. Actually this is true of news as well.

[Paulclem]

Likewise, I can rarely get to half an hour of it for the same reasons. Actually this is true of news as well.

The BBC news has really annoyed me over the past few years. They really tell you nothing. Half of their programmes are taken up with celebrity promotions of new books, CDs and films. Totally tedious. The rest of it is so limited that you'd often think that there's been nothing going on in the world. of course there is, but if it's not some natural disaster with a gruesome footage, you never hear anything. There's never any followup on stories either.

We often watch Euronews. it's not fantastic, but you learn about what's happening in the neighbours countries. it's a low key production, but you find out a lot more variety. They even mention - and you won't believe this on a British telly - other European countries including stuff from Brussels.

[LitNetIsGreat]

The BBC news has really annoyed me over the past few years. They really tell you nothing. Half of their programmes are taken up with celebrity promotions of new books, CDs and films. Totally tedious. The rest of it is so limited that you'd often think that there's been nothing going on in the world. of course there is, but if it's not some natural disaster with a gruesome footage, you never hear anything. There's never any followup on stories either.

We often watch Euronews. it's not fantastic, but you learn about what's happening in the neighbours countries. it's a low key production, but you find out a lot more variety. They even mention - and you won't believe this on a British telly - other European countries including stuff from Brussels.

I agree about the BBC the local news channels are a lot like that as well, Harry Gration and co, a couple of news stories and then lots of absolute nonsense. I will look out for the Euronews, it would be a novelty to actually know that anything outside the UK is actually happening.

[Emil Miller]

We often watch Euronews. it's not fantastic, but you learn about what's happening in the neighbours countries. it's a low key production, but you find out a lot more variety. They even mention - and you won't believe this on a British telly - other European countries including stuff from Brussels.

It's interesting that you say that, because recently I was visiting some Chinese friends who were watching a Chinese TV programme in English on current European news and I was surprised how good it was. When I mentioned it to my friend she said she couldn't understand why news broadcasts in England didn't cover European news more often.

[prendrelemick]

The BBC has one thing going for it, because of its Charter it is obliged to provide "balance" in its reporting. And sometimes it manages to do so.


I've just iplayered Newsnight from last night - a thing I thought I'd never do. Steve Coogan ripped into a sleasey looking tabloid reporter, and Will Self summed up in his own unique and strange way..

A woman from Mumset said there has been "an uprising of angry individuals". I think she is right, and it scares the Politicians and the gutter press like nothing else can. Individuals cannot be delt with collectively, they have no leader to browbeat or threaten or persuade or damage, control is difficult.. It is as I said at the beginning of this thread - those in power are being reminded where their power ultimately comes from.

As for the Meropolitian Police, they are going to come out of this very badly indeed.

Also keeping their heads down are the other tabloids, The Daily Mail could be next - if there is the appitite to pursue all this before the next distraction comes along.

[Emil Miller]

Just been listening to The Week in Westminster on radio 4 and, needless to say, the NoW was the top story. For the second time this week, David Mellor has been given the chance to attack the dirty digger's BSkyB takeover. A couple of days ago, he was also castigating Rupert on LBC in the most forthright manner. When one looks back at the way he was hounded from office by The Sun in the infamous Antonia de Sancha sex scandal in what must have been, even by The Sun's standards, one of the most scurrilous campaign's ever, revenge must be very sweet for Mellor: especially as his influence in the media is not exactly negligible.

[prendrelemick]

Ah David Mellor, another victim returns to haunt the Murdochs. He trained as a QC I remember, He'll know exactly where to put the boot in.

As I understand it, if Richard Murdoch has done nothing more than what he admitted to and apologised for;- ie approving money to be paid to individuals to ensure their silence- then he may have already broken the law (Clause 79 of the Regulation of Investagtory powers act.)

What then for the BSKYB takeover. In theory News International could lose the 31% of the company they already own, as only "fit and proper persons" can hold a broadcasting licence in this country.

[Emil Miller]

Ah David Mellor, another victim returns to haunt the Murdochs. He trained as a QC I remember, He'll know exactly where to put the boot in.

As I understand it, if Richard Murdoch has done nothing more than what he admitted to and apologised for;- ie approving money to be paid to individuals to ensure their silence- then he may have already broken the law (Clause 79 of the Regulation of Investagtory powers act.)

What then for the BSKYB takeover. In theory News International could lose the 31% of the company they already own, as only "fit and proper persons" can hold a broadcasting licence in this country.

The incredible thing is that when Murdoch Jr. took over this end of News Corp, he was very soon being talked of in the financial press as the wonder boy of the organisation. Now we are able to see how it was achieved, perhaps he and the redhead will also be called to account in due course.
Everything looked to be going Rupert Murdoch's way with regard to News Corp taking over the remainder of BSkyB when Vince Cable was tricked by two undercover Telegraph journalists into admitting that he was gunning for Murdoch and would refuse the bid in his capacity as Business Secretary.
Now, however, there will be an almighty row if it's allowed to go through.

[prendrelemick]

Now I am NOT a conspiricy theorist in any way, but the Vince Cable thing almost got me going. Anti News corp minister replaced by pro News corp minister after newspaper sting! Very convienient.

[Emil Miller]

Now I am NOT a conspiricy theorist in any way, but the Vince Cable thing almost got me going. Anti News corp minister replaced by pro News corp minister after newspaper sting! Very convienient.

It's becoming increasingly difficult not to become a conspiracy theorist given the double-dealing that is increasingly coming to the fore. However, Cable was not replaced but had the BSkyB takeover removed from his remit. If there were a conspiracy to wave through the bid, it's all the more gratifying to see that it appears to have come unstuck.

[prendrelemick]

Now this is just a rumour, but the crossword puzzle compiler on the last News of the World, may have managed to circumvent any News International censorship, and got a message out! If only that were true!

[wessexgirl]

I'd still like to know what hold Rebecca Brooks has over the Murdochs that they are willing to close a paper down to save her butt. Apparently she has said there's more to come, (well surprise, surprise :rolleyes5:), but she has to be the most incompetent editor of a paper ever if she didn't know, (which has to be utter bs), so why the reluctance to get rid of her? A lot of the theories are that she is a firewall between the Murdochs and the excrement hitting the fan. I can't help but glory in the biter bit though.

I watched Steve Coogan too giving that hack, (who incidentally has been paraded around all of the tv/radio progs trying to defend the indefensible, and looking like a real scumbag), a rough time on Newsnight. Hugh Grant has done a sterling job too. I have to say that I'm not usually someone who knocks the press, as I want a free press even though I don't buy any of the papers these days. However, The NotW has plumbed the depths here, but let's not think that it's only them. I hope that a judicial enquiry will sort out the wrongdoers and see them punished properly, along with corrupt police who were paid. And if Murdoch does get his way with regards to BskyB, then there's no hope for us here in the UK, as it will prove beyond doubt the corruption that reeks from our politicians.

[prendrelemick]

The shame is, that I don't buy a paper either anymore, they're a waste of time. The tabloids have sunk very low in the last 20 years and dragged down the "qualities" as well. Too much sensationalism, opinion and editorial bias, not enough news and analysis. The only paper I occasionally bother with is that "i" a cut down version of the Independent, or the Metro free paper. I really believe that it is Rupert Murdoch's influence on the industry that has lead to this general lowering of standards.

By the way, the crossword ruse is genuine. Rebekah Brooks got two Sun journalists to check every word of the last edition to make sure it kept to the corporate line. However they missed the significantly worded clues and solutions of the crossword!

Thats probably my favourite part of the whole scandal.

[Emil Miller]

The shame is, that I don't buy a paper either anymore, they're a waste of time. The tabloids have sunk very low in the last 20 years and dragged down the "qualities" as well. Too much sensationalism, opinion and editorial bias, not enough news and analysis. The only paper I occasionally bother with is that "i" a cut down version of the Independent, or the Metro free paper. I really believe that it is Rupert Murdoch's influence on the industry that has lead to this general lowering of standards.

By the way, the crossword ruse is genuine. Rebekah Brooks got two Sun journalists to check every word of the last edition to make sure it kept to the corporate line. However they missed the significantly worded clues and solutions of the crossword!

Thats probably my favourite part of the whole scandal.

You are quite right about the tabloids and the overall standard of journalism has never been so low in my experience.
The Evening Standard, the only national evening paper in the UK, has been sold to a Russian who uses it merely as vehicle for advertisers and is given away free, but it's so poor that I don't bother to read it.
From the moment that Murdoch took over the defunct Daily Herald, a paper financed by the trade unions and very left-wing politically, there was no stopping him. There's not much to choose between trade unionism and page three girls for anyone who wants a genuine newspaper, so I never bought The Sun as it was renamed. Unfortunately, a large part of the population did take to it and the stage was set for the trivialisation of the others. I mostly read the French press now but if I do occasionally read an English paper, I buy the Telegraph. I don't read the Guardian as it's diametrically opposed to my political views and is owned by the Scott Trust that was purposely set up to enable the Guardian to avoid paying corporation tax. The Independent is also in the ownership of the Russian who owns the Evening Standard but still maintains its left-wing political stance. The Times isn't what it was since Murdoch took it over although, so far, there aren't any page three girls in it.
As Murdoch isn't a citizen of the UK, I don't see why he should be able to influence policy in the country through his ever increasing media empire.

[Vonny]

I didn't realize that in the UK people think they are the center of things and don't find out what goes on in the rest of Europe.

I thought we are the center of things.

I didn't know that people out there are frustrated with their news coverage and are not enjoying it.

I'd say 9 out of 10 people find great satisfaction in their news coverage from Fox, (Murdoch's first news channel, I think.) I talk to older people, some who are educated, and they ask me if I'm going to vote. I say no, because I don't know how to vote, (which is true for the most part, I don't fall neatly into either party.) People tell me affirmatively that I need to be watching Fox news and then I'd know the truth.

(My friend tells me to just vote the mental health issues on the ballot, but I don't do that either, because I'm afraid that people will see me voting and suspect that I didn't vote the right way, since I'm not able to talk to them on their frequency, and I'm sure they notice that.)

Watching Fox news people do get enraged, but not at the pundits who are presenting the news, because they are telling the truth. It's easy to know the truth because they don't overwhelm the viewer with facts that are difficult to assimilate. They process the facts and tell you what it all means, and it's all clear. The same experts are on talk radio, and all of those radio stations are collectively called Clear Channel.

[prendrelemick]

News is tricky Vonny.

What is a fact? What is the truth? Behind any news Item that we hear or read, there is an editor who is deciding for us what is important and and what tone to adopt. She or he will also decide who's expert analysis and comments and interviews to use. If you find an outlet you trust and generally agree with, then stick with it. But remember fact is fact, opinion isn't. Your opinion is just as valid as theirs. You are at the center of things, and so am I.

[Emil Miller]

News is tricky Vonny.

What is a fact? What is the truth? Behind any news Item that we hear or read, there is an editor who is deciding for us what is important and and what tone to adopt. She or he will also decide who's expert analysis and comments and interviews to use. If you find an outlet you trust and generally agree with, then stick with it. But remember fact is fact, opinion isn't. Your opinion is just as valid as theirs. You are at the center of things, and so am I.

This is absolutely correct. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, the nice well-dressed presenter's are reading their words from a prompt screen but who is the author of the words?

[Vonny]

This is absolutely correct. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, the nice well-dressed presenter's are reading their words from a prompt screen but who is the author of the words?

Oh no, the one's on our news really understand the issues, and they are distinguished authors in their own right.

Last Christmas season, I went into the grocery store and saw a new novel by Glenn Beck on the shelf next to the potato chips, entitled The Christmas Sweater.

[papayahed]

I'd say 9 out of 10 people find great satisfaction in their news coverage from Fox, (Murdoch's first news channel, I think.)



:eek:

You're kidding right?

[Vonny]

No, I'm not kidding about that.


But I'm the 1 in 10. Maybe I didn't make that clear.

Oh, I see the confusion. I'm saying that from their point of view, so I suppose I'm being facetious.

But Fox is trusted and enjoyed by almost everyone. Glenn Beck is almost one of the family for many, Sean Hannity as well.

Thanks for pointing that out Papayahed. I think maybe I make that mistake often in my communication, and I never realized it before.

Part of that was facetious and part not. I was serious about not voting because I'm afraid to.

[papayahed]

No, I'm not kidding about that.


But I'm the 1 in 10. Maybe I didn't make that clear.

Oh, I see the confusion. I'm saying that from their point of view, so I suppose I'm being facetious.

But Fox is trusted and enjoyed by almost everyone. Glenn Beck is almost one of the family for many, Sean Hannity as well.

Thanks for pointing that out Papayahed. I think maybe I make that mistake often in my communication, and I never realized it before.

Part of that was facetious and part not. I was serious about not voting because I'm afraid to.


I guess the issue I have is your statement that Fox news is trusted and enjoyed by almost everyone. Perhaps this is the case with the people you know but where I sit most people would rather stick hot pokers in their eye rather then watch Fox News.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I thought Fox News had a terrible reputation. I thought that was the general feeling, I've never watched it.

The whole phone hacking disgrace makes me wonder how many other papers/journalists are at it as well. If we were running a book on the likely candidates I'd have The Sun right up there as obvious hot favourites.

Regardless, Rebekah Brooks is set to be questioned by police. I would love to see her thrown in prison, unlikely though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8627519/Rebekah-Brooks-to-be-questioned-by-police-over-phone-hacking.html

[Vonny]

I thought Fox News had a terrible reputation. I thought that was the general feeling.

This will be my final post on this thread, but I want to say that this is a misconception. Fox News is TRUSTED by many, and they RELISH it, as well. They take it in without any assimilation. They gloat as the opponent is destroyed, and they thrive in their group solidarity.

According to the Wikipedia "Fox News Channel" article: "The channel was launched on October 7, 1996 to 17 million cable subscribers. The channel grew in the late 1990s and 2000s to become the dominant cable news network in the United States. In 2010 the network took the top 10 spots in the age 25–54 demographic and the top 12 spots among total viewers." Fox's slogan is: "The Most Powerful Name in News"

There is a HUGE segment of our population that absolutely laps this stuff up. It's immensely popular - it is everywhere you turn. The Fox and talk radio base may not be so much in other states as it is in Idaho. I mean, it's there and it's powerful there, but it's not uniform. Certain regions of the country are the Fox News base, such as Idaho and throughout the South, in the Bible Belt. (I guess Idaho is the most homogeneous place in the country, as we have virtually no minorities. Here, virtually everyone is white, whereas in the South there are many blacks, etc.)

I'm sure that where I live it is extreme. But, the people here have a large influence. And the Fox base is everywhere, and that's why they are all over the radio stations, and the pundits publish so many HUGELY best selling books. And the people who lap up that stuff aren't here on this site, because they don't read literature, other than propaganda.

Maybe what's happening in other countries is a reverberation, or "bleed over" of this same kind of journalism, only in other countries it seems people question it more, and people are willing to talk about it more. There, as Wessex girl said, "...as it will prove beyond doubt the corruption that reeks..." Here we say, "God Bless America," and leave it at that.

[prendrelemick]

Vonny, I think you should keep posting on this thread. You have insight and opinion on this that is worth having. I admit I too missed your irony in that first post.

Neely, Have a look at this, the NOTW were not the only paper at it. Notice how reluctant certain titles were to report the emerging storys. The Milly Dowler episode changed all that.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/prendrelemick/1_fullsize-2.jpg

[JuniperWoolf]

Glenn Beck is almost one of the family for many, Sean Hannity as well.

That is a terrifying thought.

[Vonny]

It's true how people love Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. I know ladies in their 60s who turn on their radios to Glenn Beck in the middle of the night when they wake and can't sleep, because he is soothing to them.

People out there can't imagine what is the roots, the origins, of the news. (Well, this is what I'm seeing, anyway.) Out there people just say, "How can anything be so dang twisted? How can someone profess to be one thing, and pull this charades over on us, when they are so clearly something else?" They don't understand the religious/faith component that empowers it here, and how pastors support certain views, (in a nonchalant but very intentional way), that have nothing to do with carrying forth Christ's mission in the world.

Like Glenn Beck's Christmas Sweater. Doesn't it sound warm and cozy? And it's sold in the supermarket, (or as we call it, the grocery store.)

People don't notice anymore if their beliefs or actions completely contradict the Bible. For instance, a lady approached me saying that Mother Teresa had a false religion and didn't go to heaven. This lady doesn't stop to consider that she's gossiping and judging... which is what they wallow in with their news coverage.

It doesn't matter how clearly wrong something is. If there's a collective mentality that it's right, then it's right.

And when that lady said that to me about Mother Teresa, I said, "Oh yes, well she was Catholic." I always say some little something in agreement. (But Mother Teresa upheld "faith without works is dead," and so they resent that message. They now believe that all you need is faith, and anything you do or don't do, Christ will overlook.)

It seems we have a foreshadowing of the antichrist.

I should add, these ladies in their 60s are on welfare. And the pundits could be working to eliminate their welfare. But they ignore that because they believe that their welfare comes from God. And they believe that the pundits are Godly. As the artist puts it, "They lack critical thinking skills."

[papayahed]

That is a terrifying thought.


I know right?


http://www.hollabackhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/GlennBeckCrying.jpg

[Emil Miller]

I thought Fox News had a terrible reputation. I thought that was the general feeling, I've never watched it.

The whole phone hacking disgrace makes me wonder how many other papers/journalists are at it as well. If we were running a book on the likely candidates I'd have The Sun right up there as obvious hot favourites.

Regardless, Rebekah Brooks is set to be questioned by police. I would love to see her thrown in prison, unlikely though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8627519/Rebekah-Brooks-to-be-questioned-by-police-over-phone-hacking.html

A very interesting Telegraph article Neely. When Cameron was leader of the opposition, George Walden, a former minister in Mrs. Thatcher's government, wrote a book called Time to Emigrate? (I wrote to him suggesting that the title would have been more accurate without the question mark) a scathing attack on the UK's immigration policy in which he attacked Cameron as being unreliable.
Since then, his daughter Celia has married Piers Morgan, the former editor of the News of the World, who was a close friend of the then deputy editor
Rebekah Brooks, who in turn is a close friend of Cameron.

But then as George W Bush said: "Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."

[LitNetIsGreat]

Vonny, I think you should keep posting on this thread. You have insight and opinion on this that is worth having. I admit I too missed your irony in that first post.

Neely, Have a look at this, the NOTW were not the only paper at it. Notice how reluctant certain titles were to report the emerging storys. The Milly Dowler episode changed all that.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k78/prendrelemick/1_fullsize-2.jpg

Yes that's very interesting. The Mirror, my wife's paper(?), certainly don't seem interesting in reporting phone hacking at all. I will print that off and show it her.


A very interesting Telegraph article Neely. When Cameron was leader of the opposition, George Walden, a former minister in Mrs. Thatcher's government, wrote a book called Time to Emigrate? (I wrote to him suggesting that the title would have been more accurate without the question mark) a scathing attack on the UK's immigration policy in which he attacked Cameron as being unreliable.
Since then, his daughter Celia has married Piers Morgan, the former editor of the News of the World, who was a close friend of the then deputy editor
Rebekah Brooks, who in turn is a close friend of Cameron.

But then as George W Bush said: "Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories."

Oh the whole thing reeks. Cameron is sweating over this too, but it is the same old thing, they'll just let it blow over and nothing will get sorted. That or they'll be a few lambs thrown to the slaughter, same thing.

Vonny, that seems an apt slogan "The Most Powerful Name in News" I bet they are, what with Murdoch and his fellow criminals pulling the strings.

[Emil Miller]

Yes that's very interesting. The Mirror, my wife's paper(?), certainly don't seem interesting in reporting phone hacking at all. I will print that off and show it her.



Oh the whole thing reeks. Cameron is sweating over this too, but it is the same old thing, they'll just let it blow over and nothing will get sorted. That or they'll be a few lambs thrown to the slaughter, same thing.

Vonny, that seems an apt slogan "The Most Powerful Name in News" I bet they are, what with Murdoch and his fellow criminals pulling the strings.

As more revelations unfold, Cameron will obviously be feeling the heat, but if you check out his pedigree it reads like something out of the Almanach de Gotha, he's even related to the Queen, so it's unlikely that he will be called to answer for any indiscretions concerning the scandal. Nonetheless, the BSkyB deal looks dead in the water.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yep, and another Murdoch paper in the spotlight, could be the domino effect on a lot of them, let's hope so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14112097

[prendrelemick]

It's difficult to say where the focus of this story is at the moment, Gordon Brown has entered the fray with a episode almost as disgusting as the Milly Dowler thing. There is the usual royal hacking scandal. The police who "cocked up" the first enquiry are going to be grilled and probably fried tomorrow. The BskyB takeover has been referred to the competition Commission. News Corp is being sued by its shareholders, and Rupert has hinted he may give up newspapers altogether. As for Cameron, is he waiting and seeing, or what ?

[Emil Miller]

It's difficult to say where the focus of this story is at the moment, Gordon Brown has entered the fray with a episode almost as disgusting as the Milly Dowler thing. There is the usual royal hacking scandal. The police who "cocked up" the first enquiry are going to be grilled and probably fried tomorrow. The BskyB takeover has been referred to the competition Commission. News Corp is being sued by its shareholders, and Rupert has hinted he may give up newspapers altogether. As for Cameron, is he waiting and seeing, or what ?

Well his connections are extensive and no doubt he is busy using them to extricate himself from the mess. The most alarming thing about this business is the extent to which the police are involved. One would have to be very naive to believe that the failure to follow up the original enquiry was nothing less than a cover up. There's something very 'rotten in the state of Denmark' when those who should be upholding the law are themselves guilty of breaking it to this degree.

[Paulclem]

I always lamented the fact that to get anywhere with newspapers you have to vote with the wallet and stop buying, but it never seemed to happen to any great degree. Perhaps that's changing.

[Ecurb]

Newspapers have always been competitive and sleazy. I know we're not supposed to talk politics -- but the real corruption here is in the corruption between NOW and the police and politicians. (At least that's my view from across the pond.)

[Emil Miller]

I always lamented the fact that to get anywhere with newspapers you have to vote with the wallet and stop buying, but it never seemed to happen to any great degree. Perhaps that's changing.

This is undoubtedly true and applies equally to voting in elections, but the masses still turn out to vote for the parties that, even to the smallest intelligence, are simply not worth voting for. The obvious thing to do is to refrain from voting or vote for a party outside of the Westminster frame up.

[prendrelemick]

Newspapers have always been competitive and sleazy. I know we're not supposed to talk politics -- but the real corruption here is in the corruption between NOW and the police and politicians. (At least that's my view from across the pond.)


That just about sums it up. Corruption is a strong word, and could be applicable to the Police/NOW relationship. Yates is claiming a "**** up" but it is looking bad for him. He told untruths to a Parlimentary committe .

The Politicians/NOW was a more subtle a mixture of influence and threats. They had people in at the very top, and they had enforcers keeping individual MPs quiet.

[Vonny]

I'm not sure if there's any party worth voting for. There's no point to vote in our precinct anyway, because the elections only go one way.

In the medical library that's adjacent to our hospital, the radio was turned on to Beck or Hannity. Those voices sound very disturbing to me. I complained, since no one there knew where I live, and the woman turned it off. Sometimes people refuse to turn it off or turn it down when I ask them to. They tell me that it's information I need to hear.

Strangely, people all call themselves Christians, but many are of slightly different beliefs, so they all believe that the other person is unsaved.

And then there are those who, if pressed will say they are Christian, but it's obvious their main mission is their hatred of Jews, half-breeds, etc.

But whatever they are: some kind of Protestant, Catholic, Latter-day Saints, or White Supremist, they all are followers of Fox news and the same commentators. The Fundamentalist and the White Supremist both tell me to watch Fox news and I'll know the truth.

And whether people are dirt-poor or wealthy, sick or healthy, unemployed or employed, they believe the Fox news commentators.

And the voices sound comforting to the others, but disturbing to me.

Almost all the newspapers in northern Idaho, and several radio and television stations, are owned by one tycoon, named Duane Hagadone. He owns resorts, also. And I know of people who work as his wait staff, and they are paid a paltry wage, about $3.30 an hour. They must survive on their tips, which can be slow during certain seasons of the year. But actually, these people that I know aren't in love with the Fox news.

[Emil Miller]

I'm not sure if there's any party worth voting for. There's no point to vote in our precinct anyway, because the elections only go one way.

That's really no excuse for not voting if you really believe in an alternative party. If, however, it's simply a two horse race and both parties are damaging your personal or national interests, you would merely be compounding the damage by voting for either of them. For years I voted for the party that was likely to cause the least damage but now there are alternatives and, if they are on the ticket at election time, I vote for the one that corresponds most closely to what I think is required.

[prendrelemick]

This tie-up between Religion the Media and Politics is something we don't have here. For which I am very thankful. The reason is probably because we have an Established Church that has seats in the house of lords, (unelected) so they don't need to use the media to gain official influence in the political system.

Meanwhile the Metropolitan Police were looking Keystone copish today in
front of Culture Committee.

Labour has tabled a motion about NI's fitness to take over BskyB. This could be really ironic, because there is a possability that Vince Cable will be the Minister speaking for the Government !

News International has begun spinning again against Gordon Brown, - old habits die hard.

[Emil Miller]

This tie-up between Religion the Media and Politics is something we don't have here. For which I am very thankful. The reason is probably because we have an Established Church that has seats in the house of lords, (unelected) so they don't need to use the media to gain official influence in the political system.

Well since we live in a secular society, the Church of England's authority is virtually non existent and the recent scandal, which is the subject of this thread, has clearly demonstrated the link between the media and politics.

[prendrelemick]

Absolutely right Emil. I should have said the historical reason. If the church had not had a place at the top table for centuries, without having to try too hard, we could have ended up with a similar situation as Vonny describes. In America they are a real political force because they have people rather than ceremonial position.

[Scheherazade]

~

R e m i n d e r

Discussion of current politics is not allowed.

~

[Vonny]

Sorry you guys, I haven't meant to mindlessly post on your thread.

I only just realized that News of the World is the actual name of a newspaper. Last night when Ecurb wrote NOW, I Googled that and got National Organization of Women. I was wondering what havoc the feminists were causing across the pond.

I'm just waiting for my mom to die. It's natural causes - not murder - honest. I'm now focusing on the relief side of the equation (as Paul reminded me of) much more than the sorrow. I guess to distract myself I'm thinking of all the other problems in the world, and seeing distortions due to my sleep-deprivation. Thankfully, my brother is coming in today from Wyoming.

[I know I'm not supposed to say, "(please ignore me)" but...]

[LitNetIsGreat]

Well, The Sun (the newspaper Vonny, not the celestial orb:thumbs_up) is attacking Brown back tomorrow, effectively calling him a liar etc:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/

The Sun accusing other people of lying, what a novelty!

Surely, with all the dominoes beginning to fall those at the top of the paper(s) can't riddle out of this one...can they?:sosp:

[Paulclem]

Well, The Sun (the newspaper Vonny, not the celestial orb:thumbs_up) is attacking Brown back tomorrow, effectively calling him a liar etc:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/

The Sun accusing other people of lying, what a novelty!

Surely, with all the dominoes beginning to fall those at the top of the paper(s) can't riddle out of this one...can they?:sosp:

They make you spit don't they pulling the moral high ground with the "highlighting cystic fibrosis" claim. And donations went up - because of them too. Well I am surprised - I thought it was breaking news about the then PM and his family's private misfortune they were capitalising on. I've been wrong all along - The Sun is good and cuddly after all. That bomb they sponsored must have been full of sweeties for the local kiddies...

[prendrelemick]

They sponsored a bomb?

[prendrelemick]

The whole thing is getting more and more political in this country, so I'd better change tack.

Investigations have been started in Australia and USA into Murdoch's media empire and the means it employed to get stories. Did they hack the phones of 911 victims' families?

5 billion £ have been wiped off the share value of his companies. He is spending nearly 4 billion to buy shares in them to prop up the price.

A comment from Brian Linehan on the performance of police officers trying to explain themselves yesterday:- "If corruption had a smell, they'd have to clear the room."

[LitNetIsGreat]

Investigations have been started in Australia and USA into Murdoch's media empire and the means it employed to get stories. Did they hack the phones of 911 victims' families?

That's what I had read yes. Also 7/7 victims, Milly Dowler's family, those other murdered kids(?), The Royal Family, ex Prime Ministers, British soilders' family members and at least 4000 others, etc, etc.


5 billion £ have been wiped off the share value of his companies. He is spending nearly 4 billion to buy shares in them to prop up the price.

Good. Let's hope he goes bust and rots in prison.

[prendrelemick]

There we are then. Murdoch has announced he is no longer seeking to buy up all of BskyB.

A week ago when I started this thread he was an all powerful media baron. Now we wait and see if he can even save himself. This juggernaut is rolling on, and if it continues into America he will be severely damaged.

[Emil Miller]

Yes, the dirty digger's past has finally caught up with him. For someone who is old enough to remember the arrival of Rupert on the UK scene, this is a happy event. From day one, it was obvious that the The Sun was designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, it wasn't just childish but infantile and a major contribution to the dumbing down of the UK during that most dumbed down of all decades the 1960's.
Whatever happens to Rupert's empire now, one thing's for sure, he will never know what it is to be without money.

[tonywalt]

From the looks of it, the dumbing down will continue. I think there is choice out there, for certain, but I struggle with the fact that people choose to watch/read the mush.

[prendrelemick]

This is not mine, It's from an anonymous blogger, but it sums up very nicely my own thoughts.


"The way these stories are reported, the way they gather momentum, the commentary around them and the disdain for those on the receiving end follows a model largely designed by the Murdoch papers and followed by everyone else.

Just as interesting is the tipping point. Few people cared much about this story until evidence emerged that Milly Dowler's phone had been hacked. Pressure piled on when police revealed that relatives of soldiers killed in Afghanistan and victims of the 7/7 bombings had been targeted too.

These are all causes that Rupert Murdoch's papers had made their own. Woe betide any politician who failed to back British troops, or who appeared soft on terrorism.

Yet, suddenly, the papers that had moralised about these issues for so long stood accused of hacking the phones of terrorism victims, the families of dead soldiers and, worst of all, a young girl murdered by a paedophile. All the emotions that the Murdoch papers had fed on for years were turned against them, with added rage at their sheer hypocrisy.

The Murdoch press set the standards for media outrage in this country and it fanned the public fear and anger about crime and terrorism. These forces have now been turned against it. The monster that Murdoch helped to create is now taking big lumps out of his organisation. It is a fascinating sight."

Or as Shakespeare put it;-

The villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction

[Emil Miller]

There is a full page article in Le Monde under the title of 'That Troublesome Mr Murdoch.'
It details his contacts with both the main parties over the years and how in 1992, following a major attack on Neil Kinnock during that year's general election, the Sun claimed to have won it for the Tories. It goes into considerably more detail about Cameron's connections with Murdoch than what is being suggested in the UK media. It also mentions Tony Blair's consultation with him on the eve of the war in Iraq. According to the article, when Murdoch decided to back Cameron rather than Brown in the last election, Brown announced that the Ashes series would be taken away from Sky and offered to another channel.

[prendrelemick]

The whole affair is now dissipating in various directions. There are inquiries to be had, a few arrests have been made, no charges brought yet. The next big circus show will be the the Murdochs and Brooks' appearance at the Culture Committee, although I bet we learn nothing. The Political angle could warm up again though.

It could be that all the fuss and scandal on this side of the Atlantic will be but a sideshow if the 9/11 story really gets going in America. We'll know that is happening when Fox News can no longer ignore the story.


I can't help noticing that some of my speculative posts have come to pass - just call me Mystic Mick.
So.-

If Andy Coulson can be arrested so can Rebekah Brooks (and James Murdoch.) Will she then be sacked?

Will Cameron have to appear before THE Committee?

The NOTW was subsidising The Times, how long can it continue without a profitable Sunday cash cow? Who will win the scramble for ex NOTW readers?

Will Nick Clegg take his ball and go home?

Just how deep has News Corps burrowed into the American establishment.?

Time for a shareholders revolt?

[Emil Miller]

The Murdochs and Mrs Brooks, who has now resigned, have agreed to appear before committee next Tuesday and it should make interesting reading even though they don't have to answer questions that might impact on any subsequent action brought against them. It appears that Murdoch is considering selling all of his newspapers in the UK. The problem is that they are all losing money and it seems that nobody wants them, but if he closes them down and clears out, there will be a lot of reporters and ancillary staff looking for a job. Ironically, the Russian who owns the Independent is thought to be considering giving it away free a la Evening Standard which would leave the Mirror,Telegraph, Daily Mail, Express and the Guardian as the remaining national dailies. Although we might see the back of the dirty digger, there is always the possibility that Richard Desmond will move into Page 3 territory if the Sun and News of the World readers are left in limbo. After all, his reputation is, to say the least, somewhat questionable if Wikipedia is anything to go by:

In 2000, Express Newspapers was bought by Richard Desmond, publisher of a range of titles including the celebrity magazine OK!. Controversy surrounded the acquisition because, at the time, Desmond also owned a number of pornographic magazines such as Big Ones and Asian Babes.. He is still the owner of the most popular pornographic television channel in the UK, Television X.

[prendrelemick]

I suppose her resignation was inevitable, Pity I was looking forward to her appearance before the select committee as the NI chief exec, flanked by Rupert and James. In her previous attendance, when she admitted paying the police for stories, Chris Bryant was the questioner . He found his private life splashed over the front page of the NOTW 6 months later.
When she was invited to attend again she refused, and had the front to warn off the committee members. As the editor of the Sun she had the clout to do it.
I look forward to seeing if any MPs are looking at their shoes and being strangely quiet in front of that ruthless triumvirate.

[Emil Miller]

Chris Bryant was the questioner . He found his private life splashed over the front page of the NOTW 6 months later.
I look forward to seeing if any MPs are looking at their shoes and being strangely quiet in front of that ruthless triumvirate.

Well, given that Bryant turned out to be a homosexual who had falsely claimed for his parliamentary expenses, it is hardly surprising that he was targeted by the NoW, but as far as MPs contact with Murdoch's press regime is concerned,there's much that will remain undiscovered

[Ecurb]

Here Roger Cohen (of the "ultraliberal" New York Times) comes out in support of Murdoch: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/opinion/12iht-edcohen12.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=cohen%20murdoch&st=cse

It's an interesting take -- and a reasonable one for a journalist (although some of us may care more about politics than jounralism).

[Vonny]

Who is Cohen? He sounds Jewish.

Ecurb, people care about the Truth, not journalism, not politics.

My brother said that as he drove through Montana, along the main interstate highway, he saw a large sign, like a billboard that said, "IN THIS VALLEY JESUS CHRIST IS LORD."

So Murdoch has a home if he isn't properly appreciated in Britain.

[wessexgirl]

Who is Cohen? He sounds Jewish.

Ecurb, people care about the Truth, not journalism, not politics.

My brother said that as he drove through Montana, along the main interstate highway, he saw a large sign, like a billboard that said, "IN THIS VALLEY JESUS CHRIST IS LORD."

So Murdoch has a home if he isn't properly appreciated in Britain.

What does Cohen's religion have to do with anything?

And you're welcome to Murdoch over there, as personally speaking I am one of the increasing number who obviously do not "appreciate" him properly. Investigating a scumbag and his crew for their illegal and immoral dealings kind of makes me like that. I have this antipathy towards bullies who make their fortunes from hacking into the phones of murder and terrorist victims, service personnel killed in action, and many, many others.

I wonder how much the pay-off was for Brooks to finally fall on her sword? I think it may have something to do with the Saudi Prince I heard talking on the radio before she resigned. He is a major shareholder, and it was obvious from the interview who he blamed. Not much later she had gone. Was it because she was a woman I wonder, or perhaps not, as we all know she is guilty, but I did wonder at his haste to defend the Murdochs' whilst sending out all of his ire towards her.

It should make interesting viewing on Tuesday, to say the least.

Incidentally, I haven't checked into the Guardian yet today, but judging by yesterday's comments from the public, they were angry at the previous night's Newsnight, which I did see. Perhaps the Beeb should question their neutrality here, as Kirsty Wark and her guests were disgraceful.

[kiki1982]

Now that about the Saudi prince is interesting... It may make things a lot more difficult, although, Saudis should be, reportedly, pretty honourable people despite them being corrupt sometimes. Somehow I can't see them approving of hacking phones... But you never know.

Close, sell and deport should be the solution. He's got an American passport, so go he should or go to prison. All this is against privacy laws. Seek out the police officers who let themselves be bought and fire them. Relentlessly. Otherwise things will start again.
Society can miss scumbags (and I really mean that) like that and certainly in such an industry. Let him go to somewhere where all this is deemed proper and for the rest stay away.

The Sun, News International and News of the World would not be a great loss. Hello magazine will be very happy.

What would happen to The times is another thing though. They were also involved, I hear, but closing them (normal and Sunday) would be like taking the phone box and the routemaster.

And as for Mr Cameron... Either he was naïve or he doesn't care. I'll opt for the last one.
Any executive who doesn't know what is going on in his department or company, is not a good executive or is lying. I think the latter is the evident answer to all those three.

It is time that British politicians started to stop caring and do their thing. Who cares about what woman or not you have had sex with or whether you are gay? Does it affect your ability? No, so down with the fait-divers and up with the news. Society and politics would be better off. Fait-divers is for Royals and celebrities, it is their trade and they are good at it. Politicians should work, not court the press.

[Emil Miller]

Here Roger Cohen (of the "ultraliberal" New York Times) comes out in support of Murdoch: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/opinion/12iht-edcohen12.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=cohen%20murdoch&st=cse

It's an interesting take -- and a reasonable one for a journalist (although some of us may care more about politics than jounralism).

Well it's no good mentioning Murdoch as the saviour of the Times without also mentioning him as the progenitor of the Sun, just about the most infantile rag masquerading as a newspaper imaginable. The sheer silliness of its headlines reduces journalism to an embarrassment, and the fact that it outsells any other daily in the UK says a lot about the country's level of education.
Many of those attacking him now will be doing so from the left of the political spectrum and who like to give the rich and powerful a drubbing at the slightest opportunity but even those who sympathise with Murdoch's right-wing views, must be annoyed at their trivialisation in papers like the Sun.

[kiki1982]

I think this is a unique opportunity for Britain to claim back the term 'newspaper' as something that brings news and no celebrity gossip, or limit the latter to one or two pages .

As long as things like The Sun are posing as newspapers and are considered in the same boat as the rest of the respectable ones like The Times (not so respectable anymore to me), The Telegraph, The Mirror, etc., there will be no reason for anyone to buy another 'newspaper'. Even the Metro thing doesn't contain anything newsy;

A bit of regulation would do no harm and it would unmask those like The Daily Mail and The Mirror as also a bit dodgy, but they may just clear up their act.

Just in order to lift the average level of interest.

I have to admit that I also read the Mail out of interest, on the net. I would never buy it, but I do not consider it a newspaper. I do nto consider myself informed of what has happened in the world today by reading that. People should stop being conned into thinking it is a newspaper at all.

[Emil Miller]

This whole Murdoch thing comes against a background of declining readership in newspapers generally. I read recently that very few people in the USA under thirty-five read newspapers, preferring to get their news from the internet or TV. Whilst free papers like Metro and The Standard might prevail, it seems that the days of normal newsprint are numbered. Although political opposites, The Mail an Mirror suffer from a similar tendency to distort the news but, while firmly in the tabloid mould, they aren't as bad as The Sun. Although The Daily Mirror is a red top and something of an alter ego to Murdoch's mass daily, it seems that Murdoch created The Sun to be like The Daily Mirror ( which was the previous highest selling daily paper ) only more so.
As for regulation, we already have the Press Complaints Commission which is totally ineffective as it is a self-regulatory body paid for by the Newspaper Publishers themselves.
One of the reasons I have generally stopped reading English newspapers is that I find the French press much more informative about current affairs; even about what's going on of importance in the UK.
By coincidence I have recently written a book which in part sends up the British press with caricatures of some of the people mentioned in this thread.

[prendrelemick]

looks like Rebekah Brooks has started a new career in advertising
http://www.ryanair.com/en


I agree Emil. Papers are just about finished as we know them. The NOTW was one of the very few profitable ones , the Guardian has about two years left till the money runs out, I don't think any broadsheets make a profit. So if Murdoch throws in the towl, who will buy the loss making Times titles, and keep running them as a quality paper?



Rumour of a major resignation to be announced tomorrow! (yawn)

[Emil Miller]

:D
looks like Rebekah Brooks has started a new career in advertising
http://www.ryanair.com/en


I agree Emil. Papers are just about finished as we know them. The NOTW was one of the very few profitable ones , the Guardian has about two years left till the money runs out, I don't think any broadsheets make a profit. So if Murdoch throws in the towl, who will buy the loss making Times titles, and keep running them as a quality paper?



Rumour of a major resignation to be announced tomorrow! (yawn)

Could it possibly be Cameron? :biggrin5:

[Vonny]

Wessexgirl, Many say the Jews are the cause of all the trouble in the world. They say they Holocaust was fabricated. There's a guy who used to approach me (until recently) and tell me where to go on the internet to see that the smoke stacks were added to the 'supposed' concentration camps at a much later date.

Anyway our big city newspaper, the Coeur d'Alene Press isn't sleazy. Our newspaper is about honor.

The Tuesday July 12 headline reads: Accolades for Cd'A: Forbes, Yahoo! Travel honor Lake City. There's a large photo of a retired paunchy Michigan man in his sunny yellow shirt on his gas guzzling boat on the lake.

The story starts off this way: Big news, everyone: We're fantastic... Way better than Jackson Hole, even... The lists tell us so... Coeur d"Alene has been spot-lighted by two notable media entities, hailing our hamlet as superior in pretty much all the ways that count... forbes Magazine placed Coeur d'Alene as 18th on its lists of '8 Perfect Summer Lake towns,' placed above the likes of Grand Lake, Colorado and Jackson Hole, Wyoming... These just add to the accolades the Lake City has recieved in recent years, said Todd Christensen, CEO and president of the Coeur d'Alene Chamber of Commerce.


Our headline today, Saturday July 16, in the Coeur d'Alene Press, was: HOME and HEARTACHE

Though heartache is mentioned in the headline, the more important matter seems to be honor.

The subject is a 20 year-old guy, Nicholas Newby. Here's his picture.

http://freedomremembered.com/index.php/spc-nicholas-w-newby/

He died so we can be free. The article assures us that this is what he wanted to do with his life, and that he was "committed and so brave."

Here's how the article begins:

When Spc. Nicholas Newby returned home, his town was waiting... More than 200 packed the sidewalk fronting Lake City High School on Friday afternoon to honor the funeral procession for Newby a fallen National Guard soldier and Coeur d'Alene son. Children waved signs while teenagers only a few years of life decisons away from Newby's 20, craned their necks to catch a glimpse... A collective hush fell on the crowd as hundreds of motorcycles, all seated with veterans, led in Newby's family... Although his parents were separated from the throng in their cars, and though Newby himself was tucked away in a gleaming hearse, the procession felt intimate... "It's the ultimate sacrifice," said veteran Richard Shutts, extending a hefty American flag. "I wish more Americans would stand in such support and honor."

Nathan Beyers 24, was killed with Newby. Beyer's first child was born while he was deployed. Someone in the crowd said, "It's bittersweet. They (Beyers and Newby) are getting the honor they deserve, but it's tragic." The article goes on, Sgt Jonathan Daniells, who served with Beyers and Newby, said it is always hard to see fellow soldiers fall... "It could've been me," said Daniels who wasn't in Iraq at the time because of disability. Believe it or not, in serving, we actually became a family. You get excited when you're around everybody."

The article said that a couple of other parents are worried about their own sons who are serving in Iraq, "But they were equally grateful to see so many honor soldiers that day."

It's odd that the word "killed" never appears in this entire article. In a picture caption it says he was "attacked by insurgents." Also, it says that "Newby himself was tucked away in a gleaming hearse," not that some teeny bits of his body were in there.

Oh well, I'm probably off-topic as usual.

[prendrelemick]

A good example of spin there Vonny. Think of all the ways that article could have been written. I,m not saying they chose the wrong one, I suspect they know their readers and cater for their tastes. (As well as those of their advertisers and owners.)


Well no one has resigned yet. Could be my impeccable source was wrong - I'll have to hack his phone again.


My money would be on Sir Paul Stephenson or John Yates.

[Emil Miller]

I supose it was only a matter of time before someone came up with this:


http://youtu.be/wFufrqhp0eE

[prendrelemick]

The lovely Mrs Brooks has been arrested by the Metroploitian Police. Which means there will be many questions that cannot be put to her on Tuesday about corruption in the Metropolitian Police. Soo convenient.


There has been lots of speculation about who will play who when the film is made.

[Emil Miller]

The lovely Mrs Brooks has been arrested by the Metroploitian Police. Which means there will be many questions that cannot be put to her on Tuesday about corruption in the Metropolitian Police. Soo convenient.


There has been lots of speculation about who will play who when the film is made.

I thought you didn't believe in conspiracy theories. :lol:

Rowan Atkinson is a must to play Ed Miliband.

[prendrelemick]

A good example of spin there Vonny. Think of all the ways that article could have been written. I,m not saying they chose the wrong one, I suspect they know their readers and cater for their tastes. (As well as those of their advertisers and owners.)


Well no one has resigned yet. Could be my impeccable source was wrong - I'll have to hack his phone again.


My money would be on Sir Paul Stephenson or John Yates.


Just call me Mystic Mick.:thumbsup:


Until all this kicked off I wasn't a conspiracy believer. I'll say one thing, the episode has me re-engaged with current affairs, it also happened to co-inside with my first week on Twitter. Is it always like this?

[Emil Miller]

Just call me Mystic Mick.:thumbsup:


Until all this kicked off I wasn't a conspiracy believer. I'll say one thing, the episode has me re-engaged with current affairs, it also happened to co-inside with my first week on Twitter. Is it always like this?

I have long made it a point to study current affairs in line with my family motto: Illegitimi non carborundum.

[Paulclem]

Doesn't it flood the news though. There's a famine in Africa, and all the BBC wants to do is chat about the Media - their own kind basically. It is important, but so are the other stories. Bah humbug.

[prendrelemick]

You're right about that, the famine is just awfull.

I wonder if the BBC is aware that the whole Hackgate thing is light relief for 90% of those who are following it. When those serious faced presenters are interviewing serious political commentators about the serious issues at stake, can't they hear the nation tittering - schadenfreudegasm they're calling it.

Was arresting Brooks, Stephenson's last act as a policeman? Has it stopped her giving evidence at the committee? Can he expect to be given a column in The Sun?


edit: Stephenson has done nothing worse than Cameron has, - at least on the surface.

[Kafka's Crow]

I have always believed that the Murdoch Machine is the biggest danger to our democracy. They control the elections and are the king-makers in this country. Since all PMs need Murdoch's support, their subsequent policies are also influenced by this evil contraption once they are helped into the office by it. We were taken to bloody wars (legal or illegal) when dictated by Murdoch, our foreign policies have been one with the policies of these newspapers. On the basis of this factor alone, the NotW affair must be the biggest political scandal in recent history. Hope this thing keeps on growing though the recent arrests have put severe limitations to any investigations carried out by any other body than the police who are themselves implicated in this case.

I have never met anybody who admitted to reading NotW or even the Sun still these are the biggest selling papers in our country. Sad state of affairs indeed. Anybody who looked down upon these papers was labelled 'a snob' by the Great Unwashed but they have brought this on the whole nation by their mindless patronage of this evil organisation. Now we can't even enjoy sports without giving money to Murdoch. The sad thing about monoply is that it restricts your choices. I refused to buy anything from Murdoch till about a year ago when I gave up to my children's desire to watch cricket and had to subscribe to Sky Sports, I still resent giving £22.50 per month to Murdoch.

Ideally the News Corp and Mr Murdoch should be forced to shut their businesses in the UK and should be barred from doing any business in this country.

[Kafka's Crow]

A good example of spin there Vonny. Think of all the ways that article could have been written. I,m not saying they chose the wrong one, I suspect they know their readers and cater for their tastes. (As well as those of their advertisers and owners.)


Well no one has resigned yet. Could be my impeccable source was wrong - I'll have to hack his phone again.


My money would be on Sir Paul Stephenson or John Yates.


Now Yates is also gone! You are aiming too low. I want a change of government and disgraceful exile/deportation for the Murdochs over this issue. Can you get them kicked out please, Mystic Meg?

[MarkBastable]

I have never met anybody who admitted to reading NotW or even the Sun...

Never? Not anybody?

You really must get out more.

[Emil Miller]

I have just heard that Ed Miliband is calling for Cameron to come clean on his dealings with Murdoch. I shouldn't think there's much chance of that but it's beginning to look decidedly sticky for Dave. I don't imagine Murdoch Jr. is feeling very comfortable either.

[billl]

Was arresting Brooks, Stephenson's last act as a policeman? Has it stopped her giving evidence at the committee? Can he expect to be given a column in The Sun?


I am completely sure that I am far less-informed about this whole thing than other people posting here. I read some articles, and know what's basically going on, but these are all knew names to me (excepting Cameron, Millibank, and Murdoch), and there's a history of events I don't know, etc. And I don't know how this parliament thing exactly works. I imagine it is like when the U.S. Congress gets controversial people to come and get grilled while a nation of constituents watches.

Anyhow, am I wrong to maybe see this arrest of Brooks a little less cynically? Surely, anything said at such a hearing will be "on the record", and there would be serious ramifications if someone were to commit perjury. By separating Brooks from the tight-wire act that the Murdochs are presumably going to put on, the investigators will have time to get Brooks to "come around", and respond more flexibly to evidence and lines of interrogation (because she won't have already made certain statements to Parliament under oath). At the moment, she might be under emotional pressure to be faithful to whatever story or approach her pseudo-father Rupert wants to put out there. And, if she is testifying, and seated right next to him, it's quite likely she'd end up compelled to stand by those words later on. (Not to mention the fact that Rupert's lawyers could later on point to such testimony in his defense, even if she ultimately changes her tune.)

[prendrelemick]

Now Yates is also gone! You are aiming too low. I want a change of government and disgraceful exile/deportation for the Murdochs over this issue. Can you get them kicked out please, Mystic Meg?


A bit scary this, who shall I point my prophetic finger at next?



I suppose it is right that the police have first dibs on Rebekah Brooks, but it will hamper the fun and games at THE COMMITTEE tomorrow.


Now for all my fellow conspiricy believers:-

Sean Hoare, News International whistleblower and key NYTimes witness has been found dead this afternoon.

[MarkBastable]

Sepp Blatter.

[Vonny]

I refused to buy anything from Murdoch till about a year ago when I gave up to my children's desire to watch cricket and had to subscribe to Sky Sports, I still resent giving £22.50 per month to Murdoch.
It's good to spend your remaining time with your children, because your $22.50 isn't going to 'make or break' Murdoch.

I asked my brother if we sent this problem overseas. He said, "Well, there's people wihin that country who want to accomplish the same things for them." It's like we have Hagadone in North Idaho who works with Murdoch.

In North Idaho we currently have "Christmas for all." A store gift certificate of about $25 is given to every poor person who asks for it. Local stores and businesses contribute, and Hagadone contributes some, but everyone knows that Hagadone sponors this, and so he's much appreciated for this gift. But our area is sucked dry in many ways that people notice on an individual basis, but each person thinks that it's only happening to him/her and people can't compare notes and see that although it looks different in each instance, there's a common thread that runs through it. For instance, there was a van service that transported elderly and disabled people to stores or wherever they wanted to go. It worked very well and wasn't overburdened, and the charge was very reasonable so the old people could afford it. Well, somehow all the funding for that van was embezzled, and the van service was shut down. The van is gone, and nothing is said about it. Next Christmas the old people will have to pay a cab to go shopping, and so with the $25 gift card maybe they will break even.

I sometimes criticize American men, and so I regret that now when I think of Nicholas and Nathan. Increasingly, we did have great men in this country. My brother reminds me that if I don't think we have great looking guys in Idaho, take a look at the water skiers on Lake Ponderay, (actually called Lake Pend Oreille.) My brother's friend has a speed boat so he water skis, (not me, much too noisy and dangerous.) My brother and his partner own a houseboat (not one of the more expensive ones), so sometimes I sit on the deck and watch, and looking out my friend makes the comment that "It's totally Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous out there!"

I don't know, it seems that if any young men are water skiing this summer it ought to be Nicholas and Nathan. But you need a rich friend to water ski. And snow skiing has become so expensive that it's almost prohibitive.

Here is more from the Home and Heartache article:

Family members were escorted planeside to place their hands on the casket, draped with an American flag, while a chaplain murmured a few words. Then the white gloves of National Guard soldiers gripped the casket and stepped it from the plane to the awaiting hearse...The event symbolized the transfer of the young man from army to kin, from family in arms to family of blood...When the crowd at Lake City High School saw the flashing lights of the processions's police escort, parents called their children to the front and placed flags in their hands...Some folks held up signs reading "Thank You" and others held candles. Veterans raised their hands in salute...Kayla Mills, who had gone to schools with Newby at Lake city High School, teared up when she spoke of his sacrifice..."it's hard. he was so young," said Mills, 21. "I'm just thankful. I think a lot of people take it for granted."

There's one columnist in our paper Sholeh Patrick, who I can see isn't warped, but she's very careful how she speaks, which is in a very 'round about' way. She points out that Nicholas and Nathan had joined the National Guard. Their mission was to protect us at home, such as during the 9/11 attack. The Guard is a reserve force of the army that is to be utilized when we are severly threatened abroad.

A separate Easter Parade, on the same day, was held for Nathan Beyers.

Here is his picture. http://freedomremembered.com/?s=beyers

Surprisingly, in this one instance "the remains of Beyers" is mentioned and not "Beyers himself," but this is much further into the article. (They do what I call "mix things up a bit" so that it's not too overwhelmingly obvious what they do, but they don't mix it up a lot, because it isn't necessary in order for the vast majority of citizens to get the Right idea.) The article says of Beyers: His plane was greeted by 60 soldiers from the Fairchild Air force Base, said Col. Tim Marsano, national guard spokesman..."They (Beyer's family) were touched. I could see that they were," Marsano said...Pam Katus, part of the crowd at Lake City High School, remembered Beyers from a gathering of National Guard soldiers at her home, hosted by her husband, a first sergeant..."Nathan just really wanted to be a good daddy," Katus said with watering eyes. And then she went on to call his death "bittersweet".

So the 24 year-old was survived by his infant daughter Ella Jo, and the 20 year-old was survived by his doggie dog, Jax.

The article ends with this bystander's quote: "Seeing this, having a couple of our boys from our town, I think it brings everything going on over there to light here." Tony said, "It's not just something you pick up on the news while you're flipping channels. This makes it real."

These deaths bring us "to light here".

They died in Operation New Dawn.

There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

I know that Nick and Nathan are in heaven this dawn, and Nick is smiling and Nathan's smile is not so tense, as though the word bittersweet is already in his mouth.


I refused to buy anything from Murdoch till about a year ago when I gave up to my children's desire to watch cricket and had to subscribe to Sky Sports, I still resent giving £22.50 per month to Murdoch.

In this country anyway: I think it's best to spend the $22.50 and enjoy the remaining time that you have left with your children because the ship like the Titanic is going down.

To the British: you have one great smile, so there's hope.

I'm off topic, but this has just happened in our newspaper, and I have emotional dysregulation.

Oh, and though the article did mention "the remains of Beyers," it forgot to say that he was splattered from hell to breakfast.

[billl]

I suppose it is right that the police have first dibs on Rebekah Brooks, but it will hamper the fun and games at THE COMMITTEE tomorrow.


I just read something in the Daily Mail, and it is basically a bunch of people (politicians and a phone-hack victim) saying that the arrest is suspicious and possibly meant to protect Brooks from the committee. It also says that she'll be at the hearing, and is willing to answer questions. So who knows? It looks like my line of reasoning isn't getting much play, so I guess I'm too remote to get the big picture.

[Emil Miller]

A bit scary this, who shall I point my prophetic finger at next?



I suppose it is right that the police have first dibs on Rebekah Brooks, but it will hamper the fun and games at THE COMMITTEE tomorrow.


Now for all my fellow conspiricy believers:-

Sean Hoare, News International whistleblower and key NYTimes witness has been found dead this afternoon.

I don't know what caused Sean Hoare's death, but given that he was an alcoholic and drug addict (The Guardian describes him as "a lovely man") it's hardly surprising that his allegations about Coulson and phone hacking were initially dismissed by some MPs. It may have been suicide, considering the size of the scandal he appears to have unleashed, but if what he is reported to have said about Coulson is true, Cameron's position is becoming increasingly untenable.

[prendrelemick]

Sean Hoare is on Panorama now. Repeating his allegations.

Another name that will appear tomorrow is Ken MacDonald. He was Director of Public Prosecutions, who reviewed the Hacking evidence at the same time as John Yates, and found "No new evidence". He now works as the Murdoch's legal advisor.

[prendrelemick]

I just read something in the Daily Mail, and it is basically a bunch of people (politicians and a phone-hack victim) saying that the arrest is suspicious and possibly meant to protect Brooks from the committee. It also says that she'll be at the hearing, and is willing to answer questions. So who knows? It looks like my line of reasoning isn't getting much play, so I guess I'm too remote to get the big picture.



You're line of reasoning is unsullied by the media job that has been done on her in this country billl. To us over here she is the wicked witch of Wapping, completely ruthless and ambitious, interested only in herself. Your line is just so novel its hard to get our indoctrinated heads round.

[TheFifthElement]

There's more to Yates's resignation than meets the eye. My friend who was hacked had been pushing Yates for informaation which, as a police officer, he would have been compelled to provide under the Freedom of Information act. However, as a private citizen he is no longer under any such compulsion. So after a lot and a lot of effort my friend is back to square 1 and not very happy about it.

Suspect there is a degree of self preservation at the heart of it, but it just makes him look more guilty.

[Emil Miller]

Sean Hoare is on Panorama now. Repeating his allegations.

Pretty good going for someone who's dead.



Another name that will appear tomorrow is Ken MacDonald. He was Director of Public Prosecutions, who reviewed the Hacking evidence at the same time as John Yates, and found "No new evidence". He now works as the Murdoch's legal advisor.

This whole business is so convoluted that if you told me it was Ronald MacDonald I'd be inclined to believe it. The French press are describing Cameron's relationship with Murdoch as incestuous, I hope that's a generalisation.

[prendrelemick]

Sorry, but the mental image that conjured up is too upsetting.

[MarkBastable]

You're line of reasoning is unsullied by the media job that has been done on her in this country billl. To us over here she is the wicked witch of Wapping, completely ruthless and ambitious, interested only in herself.

Without wishing to undermine the thrust of your argument, I have to say that, even if you're right about the media job done on her - and I'm not sure you are - and even if you're just as right about the resulting impossibility of taking an objective and unprejudiced view of her - which you may be, but really it's difficult to care, because she was pretty loathsome even before everyone started saying in public that she was loathsome - I'd still suggest that there's an entirely neat and naturally just satisfaction to be found in the idea that she might be the hapless victim of a torch-wielding, pitchfork-brandishing Fleet Street lynch-mob mentality.

[prendrelemick]

There's more to Yates's resignation than meets the eye. My friend who was hacked had been pushing Yates for informaation which, as a police officer, he would have been compelled to provide under the Freedom of Information act. However, as a private citizen he is no longer under any such compulsion. So after a lot and a lot of effort my friend is back to square 1 and not very happy about it.

Suspect there is a degree of self preservation at the heart of it, but it just makes him look more guilty.


Your friend should write to DAC Sue Akers of the Weeting inquiry. They seem to be very much on the ball according to other victims.

[prendrelemick]

Without wishing to undermine the thrust of your argument, I have to say that, even if you're right about the media job done on her - and I'm not sure you are - and even if you're just as right about the resulting impossibility of taking an objective and unprejudiced view of her - which you may be, but really it's difficult to care, because she was pretty loathsome even before everyone started saying in public that she was loathsome - I'd still suggest that there's an entirely neat and naturally just satisfaction to be found in the idea that she might be the hapless victim of a torch-wielding, pitchfork-brandishing Fleet Street lynch-mob mentality.

Exactly so, she practically invented the fleet street lynch mob . Its like Acteon and his hounds?

I just wonder if she can be as bad as she has been painted.

[billl]

To be clear, my earlier (apparently less than solid, but who knows what lies behind appearances) speculations weren't meant to be any sort of defense of Brooks, I was just thinking that investigators might be trying to target her for the purpose of maybe striking deals with her that the Murdoch's wouldn't be offered, in exchange for her cooperation (cooperation in details the Murdoch's don't know about, or even possibly cooperation against one or both of the Murdochs themselves).


Edit: sorry for beginning that parade of commas and parentheses with the phrase, "To be clear..."

[prendrelemick]

Now it is getting silly. A laptop and some papers has been found in a bin in an underground car park yards from the Brooks' London home. Mr Brooks claimed it was his, and had been thrown out in error by a cleaner.

Meanwhile, I think Cameron may as well stay in South Africa now, all the circling vultures are here at home.

[Emil Miller]

Its like Acteon and his hounds?

Exactly, but given the whole unsavoury business, none of these people are likely to end up without money, which is the true scandal of this issue.

[LitNetIsGreat]

This thread has been interesting reading helping me to catch up with events since I've been away, good stuff, thanks.

Quickly (because I'm going in the bath) I'm glad to see the pressure hotting up on this lot for sure and the strain on gutter journalism. However I think that it is something of a utopia to think that the likes of The News of the World (and The Sun if it goes) wouldn't be replaced by something equally as poor, because there is a clear market for Nesbit material. We've never had a decent press so I don't see that happening any time soon.

Will be keeping one eye on here to catch up with events. Enjoying watching Cameron sweat I must say along with the rest of the scum.

Thanks.

[prendrelemick]

Newsnight last night. I am a avid BBC supporter, but they need to remember they are supposed to be neutral. Ok the Murdoch's were out to get them through Cameron and Coulson, and were winning only two short weeks ago, but I am beginning to notice stronger and stronger editorial bias. It was noticable that only low grade Backbencher, Nick Coles, was sent to defend Cameron this time. He was duly savaged by Gavin Essler and Harriet Harman (Coles is also a News International columnist.)


Will it harm the Nigerian President's reputation to be seen with Cameron? (That's supposed to be a joke by the way, but only just.)

Hackers have broken into the Sun's web paper and planted a story of Rupert's suicide

News corps has been put on credit watch 'negative' by Wall St agency because of rising risks associated with the scandal.

[wessexgirl]

This thread has been interesting reading helping me to catch up with events since I've been away, good stuff, thanks.

Quickly (because I'm going in the bath) I'm glad to see the pressure hotting up on this lot for sure and the strain on gutter journalism. However I think that it is something of a utopia to think that the likes of The News of the World (and The Sun if it goes) wouldn't be replaced by something equally as poor, because there is a clear market for Nesbit material. We've never had a decent press so I don't see that happening any time soon.

Will be keeping one eye on here to catch up with events. Enjoying watching Cameron sweat I must say along with the rest of the scum.

Thanks.

I think your assertion that we've never had a decent press is a bit harsh there Neely. Am I living in a Utopian world by thinking of journalists of yesteryear (I am obviously living in the past ;)) by thinking of papers such as the Manchester Guardian, (not that I was around then), but it seems to have a pretty good record, and good, crusading journalists, not unlike some of those in our present Guardian who have brought all this to the fore, and refused to back off. Journalism was a noble profession once, until the likes of Murdoch got involved. There have been some exceptional cases of the press/media uncovering appalling scandals, and I am thinking of people like John Pilger, off the top of my head, who have done sterling work over the years.

Having said all that though, I can't wait to see what happens to the Wicked Witch of the West and the Gruesome Twosome when they are grilled later today. The Police corruption too is vile. I've never heard such a load of rubbish from the Met, and whether the senior two who have already gone believe themselves innocent, I'm sure anyone with half a brain can see that they were wrong. Could they really not see that?

I'm just waiting for Cameron's head (preferably on a plate) now, but the man's got the hide of a rhinoceros.

[MANICHAEAN]

Is it not a case of two of the Estates imploding? We have on the one hand, the press; disabled for ordinary business pursuits by a congenital erroneousness and on the other, a Cabinet & Met run on prize-fighting principles.

There is no more gratitude for them to abuse, no more confidence to betray, no more hope to defer.

[Emil Miller]

Interesting to see the Met's senior police officers being questioned by the oleaginous Keith Vaz, one of the most devious and corrupt individuals ever to have been an MP, and now Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee.

[prendrelemick]

Just got in, did it go well?

[billl]

Holy crap, there's a guy for the last five minutes repeatedly asking Brooks a fancied-up version of the question, "Did somebody at the paper know about the hacking and then go to the police with the info without telling management about it?" and then she is asking him, "Are you asking me if someone at the paper ordered the hacking and then went to the police with info about the crime?" Is one of them stupid? Both of them? Is she just playing dumb, or is she having that much trouble understanding him? Am I the one who's misunderstanding?

[Emil Miller]

Understandably, most of the questions have been addressed to James Murdoch but his father has also been subjected to some investigation.
All in all James Murdoch has been quite a smooth operator in answering questions without actually doing so. Someone attacked Murdoch Sr. with a plate full of shaving cream but instead had it turned on himself. I keep looking at Mrs Murdoch and thinking isn't it wonderful what money will buy: she was certainly the best thing in the room. At the risk of trivialising the issue, I think that Mrs Murdoch's hair is absolutely gorgeous and the antithesis to Mrs Brooks whose bedraggled old English sheepdog look gives the impression of a permanently bad hair day.
It looks as though today's hearings have resolved nothing but are we able to trust the police in their ongoing investigation?

[billl]

That was a pretty attractive blonde MP that grilled Brooks about her past comments that, "everybody in Fleet Street is doing it"--the angle being: if she knew that, how is it possible that she didn't know it was happening at her own paper.

[Emil Miller]

Looking at Rupert, it was hard not to feel some sympathy with this very old man who looked tired and drained, as do most people at that age, he is living proof that no matter how much power a person may wield, they will go the way of everyone else. Against that, must be set the abuse of power to destroy the reputations of others, even when that includes the likes of dubious politicians who deserve their comeuppance. Murdoch is second in line to the newspaper ownership of his father and it is said that, historically, businesses seldom exist or stay in the family after the 2nd generation, so it may be that Rupert Murdoch's plan to buck the trend by grooming his son to continue the line, is likely to fail.

[prendrelemick]

To sum up: Murdochs were not involved in big decisions at their company. Brooks not involved in big stories at her newspapers.

I missed the custard pie incident, but heard that the lovely Mrs Murdoch lept up and gave the pie thrower a good slapping. MPs in the room normally have to pay for that kind of trearment.

[Emil Miller]

To sum up: Murdochs were not involved in big decisions at their company. Brooks not involved in big stories at her newspapers.

I missed the custard pie incident, but heard that the lovely Mrs Murdoch lept up and gave the pie thrower a good slapping. MPs in the room normally have to pay for that kind of trearment.

I can say from personal experience that oriental women have a daughter/father relationship with white men, which is great for the men, but one wonders how long that will be the case now that China, and by extension the Far East in general, begins to realise that the Western democracies have feet of clay. It's not democracy, of which there is far too little, but liberalism, of which there is far too much, that will destroy the West.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I think your assertion that we've never had a decent press is a bit harsh there Neely. Am I living in a Utopian world by thinking of journalists of yesteryear (I am obviously living in the past ;)) by thinking of papers such as the Manchester Guardian, (not that I was around then), but it seems to have a pretty good record, and good, crusading journalists, not unlike some of those in our present Guardian who have brought all this to the fore, and refused to back off. Journalism was a noble profession once, until the likes of Murdoch got involved. There have been some exceptional cases of the press/media uncovering appalling scandals, and I am thinking of people like John Pilger, off the top of my head, who have done sterling work over the years.

Having said all that though, I can't wait to see what happens to the Wicked Witch of the West and the Gruesome Twosome when they are grilled later today. The Police corruption too is vile. I've never heard such a load of rubbish from the Met, and whether the senior two who have already gone believe themselves innocent, I'm sure anyone with half a brain can see that they were wrong. Could they really not see that?

I'm just waiting for Cameron's head (preferably on a plate) now, but the man's got the hide of a rhinoceros.

Hmm, I could share a few criticisms given by Wilde 100+ years agon on the state of the British press but I haven't the time. Still, if people think that because of this incident that the British press is suddenly going to be decent and "celeb gossip" etc, etc, is going for good then, quite simply, they are wrong.

I sometimes read the Guardian online and occasionally the paper itself but that's about it.


To sum up: Murdochs were not involved in big decisions at their company. Brooks not involved in big stories at her newspapers.

I missed the custard pie incident, but heard that the lovely Mrs Murdoch lept up and gave the pie thrower a good slapping. MPs in the room normally have to pay for that kind of trearment.

You really can't make this sort of stuff up.

[prendrelemick]

Hmm, I could share a few criticisms given by Wilde 100+ years agon on the state of the British press but I haven't the time. Still, if people think that because of this incident that the British press is suddenly going to be decent and "celeb gossip" etc, etc, is going for good then, quite simply, they are wrong.

I sometimes read the Guardian online and occasionally the paper itself but that's about it.



You really can't make this sort of stuff up.


I agree Neely it wont change the overall quality of the press, In fact if the Times has to fold (Murdoch puts in 50 million pounds a year to keep it going) it will mean one less quality paper.

The only positive thing as far as I can see, is that the gutter press now know there is a line they cannot cross.

[MystyrMystyry]

Cream Pie anyone?

Watch out for Wendi's right hook!

Emil said this:

I can say from personal experience that oriental women have a daughter/father relationship with white men, which is great for the men, but one wonders how long that will be the case now that China, and by extension the Far East in general, begins to realise that the Western democracies have feet of clay. It's not democracy, of which there is far too little, but liberalism, of which there is far too much, that will destroy the West.

But actually there's increasing rioting in China - almost daily, hushed up obviously - but there'll be a slow decline if America defaults on its repayments, because all of the payees will suffer and China is the backbone for all this borrowing the West has been doing

[MarkBastable]

It's not democracy, of which there is far too little, but liberalism, of which there is far too much, that will destroy the West.


What if the democratic vote is for liberalism?

[prendrelemick]

MystyrMystyry! Thank God you're here, I am struggleing to keep abreast of all the skullduggery that is going on in the corridors of power.

The quote of the day yesterday was from Murdoch who said of Prime Ministers.-
"I wish they'd leave me alone."
Reminding us that corruption works both ways.


Meanwhile, re the pie throwing incident. A man has been taken into custardy. (sorry)

In the other committee room , the police are looking more and more culpable or incompetent. The explanation that they couldn't continue the investigation because NI deliberately blocked them is is astounding. At the time they had Glenn Mulcaire's notebooks with the names of over 4000 people who may have been hacked, including Milly Dowlers.

But then they went one step further. They stated again and again there was "no evidence" of systematic hacking at NOTW. Incompetence? I hope so, but there were plenty of links between Scotland Yard and News International at that time.

[Emil Miller]

Meanwhile, re the pie throwing incident. A man has been taken into custardy. (sorry)

'Sorry' isn't good enough, after that there should be a resignation.

Dave Cameron has today accused Ed Miliband of trying to drum up evidence to support a conspiracy theory. Plus ça change.

I must dash but I'll return to the thread later.

[billl]

Meanwhile, re the pie throwing incident. A man has been taken into custardy. (sorry)


The best thing I've heard is someone's disappointment that a guy who goes by the name "Jonnie Marbles" didn't spill a pocketful of marbles on the floor and make an escape after getting Murdoch with the pie.

[prendrelemick]

Like Cassius Clay vs Henry Cooper, Cameron has been saved by the bell. He stonewalled for a couple of hours today and now its Summer Hols. Thats about 8 weeks for yer MPs


Emil: "With the benefit of twenty twenty hindsight, I do regret telling that custard joke, but of course you don't make decisions with hindsight. Futhermore I can say I never had any inappropriate conversations with anyone at all really.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Like Cassius Clay vs Henry Cooper, Cameron has been saved by the bell. He stonewalled for a couple of hours today and now its Summer Hols. Thats about 8 weeks for yer MPs


Emil: "With the benefit of twenty twenty hindsight, I do regret telling that custard joke, but of course you don't make decisions with hindsight. Futhermore I can say I never had any inappropriate conversations with anyone at all really.

We'll let you off this time. Have a nice holiday.

I actually quite liked the joke personally. However I want to put it on the record that I have had no previous knowledge of Mick's joke and realise that it might have been a mistake to admit to liking it, but at no time did I take part in "underhand" conversations about jokes.

[Emil Miller]

But actually there's increasing rioting in China - almost daily, hushed up obviously - but there'll be a slow decline if America defaults on its repayments, because all of the payees will suffer and China is the backbone for all this borrowing the West has been doing

There has been rioting in China for a number of years as the government forcibly removes people to build the new infrastructure and there is also a problem with corruption of local officials who try to hive off money allocations for themselves: some of whom have been found guilty and shot. There have also been disturbances in S.W China between the Han Chinese and the moslem population. Moreover, the Western powers have been trying to destabilise the government using human rights as a pretext. Yet despite these problems, Beijing remains firmly in control and while it's always difficult to make firm predictions regarding the control of one fifth of the World's population, the Chinese Communist Party is currently the only entity likely to be able to hold the country together.
As for the American debt crisis, China has been bankrolling the USA for some years and is the largest holder of US bonds, but there are some very wise people in charge of the economy, such as Zhu Min who has just been appointed Deputy Managing Director of the IMF and who in 1977 warned that derivatives of sub-prime mortgages were a threat to its banking sector. As an advisor to the Chinese government, he is probably one of those who have advised a diversification of its foreign debt holdings and they have been carefully offloading dollars into other currencies for some while and increasing their stocks of gold. Even if the US were to default on its debt, China would probably be able to withstand the shock.



Emil: "With the benefit of twenty twenty hindsight, I do regret telling that custard joke, but of course you don't make decisions with hindsight. Futhermore I can say I never had any inappropriate conversations with anyone at all really.

I was surprised to see that it was the Beast of Bolsover who put Cameron on the spot, as I thought he'd left parliament at the last election. Anyway, I believe Dave implicitly when he says that none of his conversations with the dirty digger were inappropriate.:wink5:



What if the democratic vote is for liberalism?

Well that's the trouble, people don't actually vote for 'liberalism ' which is different to Liberal as in Liberal Party. Liberalism is the pernicious propagation of what's laughingly referred to as 'progressive' ideas via undemocratic means and in which the population at large has no say. Such self-righteous busy bodying and well-meaning foolishness, both in and outside government, could be outmaneuvered by a system of referendums on whether such ideas should be adopted but, as we all know....'referendums are not the British way.'
Here is an extract from my novel Pro Bono Publico that puts it into perspective.

The decline of the Church of England began when it disassociated itself from Roman Catholicism during the Reformation, and was exacerbated in succeeding centuries by the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. Its teachings were informed by the wisdom of millenia, but in the vacuum created by its decline, those who presumed to be the new conscience of the people expropriated these principals as their own. Often referred to as plaster saints, they were generally kept on the fringes of society, but by the second half of the 20th century, they had attached themselves to the organs of state and had begun to subvert its authority.
Self-appointed, they were the perfect example of power without responsibility, and in today’s parlance are known by the ironic soubriquet of do-gooders. They were, and still are, everywhere. There are Associations for the reform of this, Leagues for the betterment of that and Societies for the advancement of whatever. They usually claim charitable status but, unlike genuine charities, their influence is malign, and it was only under the supine governments of the consensus that they were able to exert genuine pressure.

[MarkBastable]

Are you sure that's a novel?

[MystyrMystyry]

Here's a fairly recent article (forgive the website - I'm not a subscriber)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/pers-j12.shtml

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

How is this not a political conversation.

[Vonny]

This thread has been interesting reading helping me to catch up with events since I've been away, good stuff, thanks.

Quickly (because I'm going in the bath) I'm glad to see the pressure hotting up on this lot for sure and the strain on gutter journalism. However I think that it is something of a utopia to think that the likes of The News of the World (and The Sun if it goes) wouldn't be replaced by something equally as poor, because there is a clear market for Nesbit material. We've never had a decent press so I don't see that happening any time soon.

Will be keeping one eye on here to catch up with events. Enjoying watching Cameron sweat I must say along with the rest of the scum.

Thanks.

I'm like you Neely, I love water. It can't be cold, though. If I was a wealthy person, I think two things I'd want is first, plenty of land around me, and second, I'd want a giant indoor swimming pool, that I could adjust the temperature of, and then I'd make it cooler for swimming, and nice and warm the rest of the time.

I think of that Titanic sinking and how cold that water was. Maybe hopefully the cold put them into shock before they sank the two miles down in blackness. I know that in our lakes, in the wintertime if you don't get help very quickly, you're dead. One difference between the Titanic and what we face now is that a few wealthy went down on the Titanic, and they tried to get some of the women and children off first. And the band played to the end. If more people could appreciate intrinsic satisfactions, such as warm water, even though it does have to be heated somehow, (we could figure out how to cover that I think, or move to Arizona), we wouldn't have all the trouble in the world. I do think sailboats are lovely. If I was wealthy, I'd have one of those I think.

[prendrelemick]

Emil: All sides of society have their do gooder groups with opposing doctrines, there is some balance I think. And anyway, What is "The West" and how can it be destroyed? When all the institutions have gone, we peasents will still be here like we were when the Romans left.

Mark/Mutis: I repeat. "There have been no inappropriate disscussions on this thread."

MM: "The contridicions of capitalism" I like that. It means debt, doesn't it.

Vonny: Just keep posting.

Now back to the story. In amongst all the flim-flam that went on yesterday there were a couple of significant events.

News International instructed their solicitors to waive the client confidentiality principle and allow investigators to access to all papers relating to the NOTW scandal. True openness? Possibly, apart fron the odd terabyte of info already deleted.


They have also stopped paying the legal fees of ex NI employees, including Glenn Mulcaire. Commenting on this, Mulcaire said
'I have no further comment to make at this stage. However, this may change.'
Was that a veiled threat to people still protesting their innocence?

I think scandal fatigue is kicking in.

[XQZ]

I think you might be right. The really odd thing I find is that it is the biggest story of Murdoch's worthless career, and he IS the story!

[Emil Miller]

Are you sure that's a novel?

Yes, what I have posted is the preamble to a chapter and it is immediately followed by a continuation of the story.


Here's a fairly recent article (forgive the website - I'm not a subscriber)

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/pers-j12.shtml

I have read similar articles over a number of years and they do underline the structural problems inherent in what may be the biggest modernisation programme in history. On this scale, it is inevitable that control of the economy is going to be diffuse, not to say dangerous, but tight central control from Beijing and the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army) should be enough to keep both the economy and population in order.



I'm like you Neely, I love water. It can't be cold, though. If I was a wealthy person, I think two things I'd want is first, plenty of land around me, and second, I'd want a giant indoor swimming pool, that I could adjust the temperature of, and then I'd make it cooler for swimming, and nice and warm the rest of the time.

I think of that Titanic sinking and how cold that water was.

I'm just wondering how this thread has got from The News of the World to swimming pools and the Titanic. I blame Neely for talking about his bath.


Emil: And anyway, What is "The West" and how can it be destroyed? When all the institutions have gone, we peasents will still be here like we were when the Romans left.

Well obviously not physically but in the sense of Western civilisation. Just as Roman civilisation was followed by the Dark Ages until the Renaissance some seven centuries later. While recent historians have suggested they might not have been as dark as previously thought, we would have done better without them.

[prendrelemick]

Next week we shall be doing Piers Morgan. What he said he knew in 2007 and what he says he doesn't know now. (Yes they're the same thing.)

[Vonny]

Emil, you can shoulder a bit of the blame yourself. It arose from a strange combination of visualizing myself as a future Chinese citizen, wondering what my co-workers will say if I happen to pop open at the wrong moment a picture of a giant thing in a bikini sipping high fructose corn syrup after I've mentioned to our boss that their extreme reliance on lattes in the work place is unprofessional as well as hazardous when they pour it on me, trying to figure out how many of my mom's medical bills I've misplaced without paying and if she'll end up in jail next time instead of the hospital, and then everything is all mixed up because I'm spending most of my time in the Blue Lagoon, and my mom won't be pleased if her doctor bills don't get paid because I'm in the Blue Lagoon, and then a final trigger I think was Mutatis getting the thread off topic, so I think actually Neely is a lesser culprit this time.

And then trying to figure out if what I need is a Chinese grandfather and a lovely sailboat!

[Emil Miller]

Next week we shall be doing Piers Morgan. What he said he knew in 2007 and what he says he doesn't know now. (Yes they're the same thing.)

I knew very little about Piers Morgan until recently so I decided to check him out on Wikipedia and he is just about the most boring person I have come across. His entire existence appears to have been spent editing trashy newspapers, hosting rubbishy talent contests and consorting with 'celebrities'. Jeremy Clarkson (another media created non-entity) apparently punched Morgan at one of those tedious award ceremonies at which 'celebrities congratulate themselves on being nobody. So at least Clarkson is able to claim having done one useful thing in his otherwise pointless existence.

[Kafka's Crow]

Well obviously not physically but in the sense of Western civilisation. Just as Roman civilisation was followed by the Dark Ages until the Renaissance some seven centuries later. While recent historians have suggested they might not have been as dark as previously thought, we would have done better without them.

Oh my God, we'd still be wearing animal skins, painting our faces to scare our enimies and would all be tattooed like Murdoch's readers, the neanderthals/ football fans, if there were no so-called 'Dark Ages.' There would have been no Rennaisance for sure without the 'Dark Ages', the Aztec and Inca gold from the Americas and parasite pirating nations who extolled their share with brute force by interrupting gold-carrying ships on their way to Spain. If the 'Dark Ages' supplied the West with the intellectual resources to bring about the Rennaisance, piracy and colonialism brought us the material strength to pay for it.

[prendrelemick]

Emil, you can shoulder a bit of the blame yourself. It arose from a strange combination of visualizing myself as a future Chinese citizen, wondering what my co-workers will say if I happen to pop open at the wrong moment a picture of a giant thing in a bikini sipping high fructose corn syrup after I've mentioned to our boss that their extreme reliance on lattes in the work place is unprofessional as well as hazardous when they pour it on me, trying to figure out how many of my mom's medical bills I've misplaced without paying and if she'll end up in jail next time instead of the hospital, and then everything is all mixed up because I'm spending most of my time in the Blue Lagoon, and my mom won't be pleased if her doctor bills don't get paid because I'm in the Blue Lagoon, and then a final trigger I think was Mutatis getting the thread off topic, so I think actually Neely is a lesser culprit this time.

And then trying to figure out if what I need is a Chinese grandfather and a lovely sailboat!



And I thought the Titanic reference was a Metaphor.:lol:

[Emil Miller]

Oh my God, we'd still be wearing animal skins, painting our faces to scare our enimies and would all be tattooed like Murdoch's readers, the neanderthals/ football fans, if there were no so-called 'Dark Ages.' There would have been no Rennaisance for sure without the 'Dark Ages', the Aztec and Inca gold from the Americas and parasite pirating nations who extolled their share with brute force by interrupting gold-carrying ships on their way to Spain. If the 'Dark Ages' supplied the West with the intellectual resources to bring about the Rennaisance, piracy and colonialism brought us the material strength to pay for it.

I think it's generally conceded that with the end of Roman civilisation, their empire entered in to a period of intellectual and social decline. The Renaissance period saw a revival of the cultural and economic activity that had characterised the Roman empire and which had largely disappeared with its collapse. Its successor, the Holy Roman Empire was a hotch-potch of remnants from Rome's former European territories and hardly in the same league as the original.

[prendrelemick]

My point is that we are not that special, there is no reason why this particular civilization should survive or deserves to, any more than the Romans or the Aztecs. There were people on the ground before and will be after. The fall and rise of civilizations takes a few centuries but is just a change in direction.

Meanwhile a couple of ex NOTW executives Colin Myler and Tom Crone have issued a sensational statement saying James Murdoch was 'mistaken' in evidence to THE COMMITTEE. well I suppose anyone can make a mistake.

When will they ever learn, it's the cover-up that brings you down.


Statement from James Murdoch, London, July 21, 2011 - I stand behind my testimony to the Select Committee.

[Emil Miller]

My point is that we are not that special, there is no reason why this particular civilization should survive or deserves to, any more than the Romans or the Aztecs. There were people on the ground before and will be after. The fall and rise of civilizations takes a few centuries but is just a change in direction.

Meanwhile a couple of ex NOTW executives Colin Myler and Tom Crone have issued a sensational statement saying James Murdoch was 'mistaken' in evidence to THE COMMITTEE. well I suppose anyone can make a mistake.

When will they ever learn, it's the cover-up that brings you down.


Statement from James Murdoch, London, July 21, 2011 - I stand behind my testimony to the Select Committee.

One can't help feeling that despite all the obfuscation by James Murdoch and Mrs Brooks, nobody in there right mind could draw any other conclusion that they were complicit in the phone hacking. How would it be possible for Brooks, as editor, to not know that her reporters had obtained confidential information except by subterfuge? Why do I get the feeling that somehow the perpetrators are going to wriggle out of it despite the obvious fact that a series of illegal acts have been carried out? One thing we do know is that if the US legal authorities find out that similar acts have been committed under US law, the perpetrators will be PUNISHED, not slapped over the wrist with a fine in our wonderful English version of liberal democracy where nobody is ever guilty of anything .

[LitNetIsGreat]

Emil, you can shoulder a bit of the blame yourself. It arose from a strange combination of visualizing myself as a future Chinese citizen, wondering what my co-workers will say if I happen to pop open at the wrong moment a picture of a giant thing in a bikini sipping high fructose corn syrup after I've mentioned to our boss that their extreme reliance on lattes in the work place is unprofessional as well as hazardous when they pour it on me, trying to figure out how many of my mom's medical bills I've misplaced without paying and if she'll end up in jail next time instead of the hospital, and then everything is all mixed up because I'm spending most of my time in the Blue Lagoon, and my mom won't be pleased if her doctor bills don't get paid because I'm in the Blue Lagoon, and then a final trigger I think was Mutatis getting the thread off topic, so I think actually Neely is a lesser culprit this time.

And then trying to figure out if what I need is a Chinese grandfather and a lovely sailboat!


And I thought the Titanic reference was a Metaphor

No, no, Vonny is the best, I love her. I tried to post earlier (of something highly original and witty) but the system went down like the Titanic...never mind.


I knew very little about Piers Morgan until recently so I decided to check him out on Wikipedia and he is just about the most boring person I have come across. His entire existence appears to have been spent editing trashy newspapers, hosting rubbishy talent contests and consorting with 'celebrities'. Jeremy Clarkson (another media created non-entity) apparently punched Morgan at one of those tedious award ceremonies at which 'celebrities congratulate themselves on being nobody. So at least Clarkson is able to claim having done one useful thing in his otherwise pointless existence.

Quality post - summed up perfectly, I couldn't agree more. Nothing needs to be added to that.

(Sorry, I will be out for a few days, it's cap and gown day tomorrow and I intend to be highly champagned out for several days...

However, I expect you lot to keep me up to date with the goings off...

All the best.

Neely.:cheers2:)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Mark/Mutis: I repeat. "There have been no inappropriate disscussions on this thread."


It isn't a matter of appropriateness. The rules clearly state no political discussions, and this one has been very political at points. I'm not a fan of double standards.

[Alexander III]

It isn't a matter of appropriateness. The rules clearly state no political discussions, and this one has been very political at points. I'm not a fan of double standards.

It's ok double standards make the world go round, and they also make a % of the population rather lucky.

[prendrelemick]

It isn't a matter of appropriateness. The rules clearly state no political discussions, and this one has been very political at points. I'm not a fan of double standards.




Double standards, that's exactly what this thread is about.


I think the Crone/Myler developement may become very significant very quickly. They were senior executives at NI - Crone was the Legal overseer. They say they showed James Murdoch transcripts of an Email refering to hacking in the Gorden Taylor case. James later authorised a £600 000 out of court settlement on that particular debacle.

Murdoch was asked by Tom Watson of THE COMMITTEE specifically about that Email and he denied any knowledge of it .

The effect of settling out of court meant that the papers gathered for the case were sealed. They contained that Email, showing that NI knew the hacking was more than one or two rogue reporters.

[billl]

Yeah, I think Mutatis missed the reference to the "no inappropriate discussions" quote in the testimony. Look, if Emil pops off on politics in the middle of this for a couple posts, it's probably OK to just let it run its course. Good for Mutatis to keep an eye out, though, I think--because the no-politics rule is what's basically holding the larger operation together, at least in a couple sub-forums.

[MarkBastable]

Double standards, that's exactly what this thread is about.


I don't think it is. We shouldn't confuse double standards with ordinary lying.

[prendrelemick]

I suppose not, the double standards are from the public who are so shocked, but still buy the tabloids.

[Jack of Hearts]

It's almost like something out of a bad novel.

http://www.workman.com/products/covers/9781565117877.jpg






J

[Emil Miller]

Double standards, that's exactly what this thread is about.


I think the Crone/Myler developement may become very significant very quickly. They were senior executives at NI - Crone was the Legal overseer. They say they showed James Murdoch transcripts of an Email refering to hacking in the Gorden Taylor case. James later authorised a £600 000 out of court settlement on that particular debacle.

Murdoch was asked by Tom Watson of THE COMMITTEE specifically about that Email and he denied any knowledge of it .

The effect of settling out of court meant that the papers gathered for the case were sealed. They contained that Email, showing that NI knew the hacking was more than one or two rogue reporters.

The interesting thing about Tom Watson is that he was accused by the Sun of being part of a smear campaign against Tory MPs, including Cameron and Osbourne when Gordon Brown was PM and he successfully sued the paper for substantial damages. So he obviously has an axe to grind against the Murdochs. Just another example of someone they tried to damage coming back to haunt them, even if is a rather dubious MP.



Yeah, I think Mutatis missed the reference to the "no inappropriate discussions" quote in the testimony. Look, if Emil pops off on politics in the middle of this for a couple posts, it's probably OK to just let it run its course. Good for Mutatis to keep an eye out, though, I think--because the no-politics rule is what's basically holding the larger operation together, at least in a couple sub-forums.

Experience shows that the moderators have behaved well in monitoring this forum since it was started. It is always difficult in situations such as this where politicians are involved, not to touch on political aspects of of the case. The dividing line appears to be when someone posts a partisan view which usually invites a similar reply from the opposing side and can all too quickly evolve into a slanging match. As long as impartiality is maintained when political elements are part of a discussion, the moderators will decide whether or not that is sufficient to allow the thread to continue.

[prendrelemick]

The interesting thing about Tom Watson is that he was accused by the Sun of being part of a smear campaign against Tory MPs, including Cameron and Osbourne when Gordon Brown was PM and he successfully sued the paper for substantial damages. So he obviously has an axe to grind against the Murdochs. Just another example of someone they tried to damage coming back to haunt them, even if is a rather dubious MP.




Experience shows that the moderators have behaved well in monitoring this forum since it was started. It is always difficult in situations such as this where politicians are involved, not to touch on political aspects of of the case. The dividing line appears to be when someone posts a partisan view which usually invites a similar reply from the opposing side and can all too quickly evolve into a slanging match. As long as impartiality is maintained when political elements are part of a discussion, the moderators will decide whether or not that is sufficient to allow the thread to continue.


The other interesting thing about Tom Watson is that he always seems to be one step ahead of everyone else on this. I reckon someone has been feeding him inside information from News International or from the Met. Remember Deep Throat and Watergate?


I have tried really hard only to report what has happened on the political side of this affair, while expanding and commenting on the rest of it.

[Emil Miller]

The other interesting thing about Tom Watson is that he always seems to be one step ahead of everyone else on this. I reckon someone has been feeding him inside information from News International or from the Met. Remember Deep Throat and Watergate?


I have tried really hard only to report what has happened on the political side of this affair, while expanding and commenting on the rest of it.

Or perhaps he has been hacking peoples' phones.

[prendrelemick]

I really can't see James Murdoch lasting much longer as the head of NI. Or NI lasting much longer with him as its Head.


The "For Neville" Email fiasco will do for him. Course he'll probably get promoted to News Corps.

[MarkBastable]

The dividing line appears to be when someone posts a partisan view which usually invites a similar reply from the opposing side and can all too quickly evolve into a slanging match.

Or to put it more practically, Emil reckons he can get away with this....


Often referred to as plaster saints, they were generally kept on the fringes of society, but by the second half of the 20th century, they had attached themselves to the organs of state and had begun to subvert its authority.

Self-appointed, they were the perfect example of power without responsibility, and in today’s parlance are known by the ironic soubriquet of do-gooders. They were, and still are, everywhere. There are Associations for the reform of this, Leagues for the betterment of that and Societies for the advancement of whatever. They usually claim charitable status but, unlike genuine charities, their influence is malign, and it was only under the supine governments of the consensus that they were able to exert genuine pressure.


..as long as no one argues with him about it.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Exactly. I've seen threads shut down before any political discussion has started. In other words, just the potential for political discourse is reason enough to shut it down, yet we have people spouting off about the evils of a certain ideology, and it's okay.

[Kafka's Crow]

Or to put it more practically, Emil reckons he can get away with this....




..as long as no one argues with him about it.

Exactly and I did not argue although this whole thread is about the corruption in a conservative governement and a conservative media organisation but I did not even mention it just to keep the Serious Cat happy, or did I?

[Emil Miller]

Or to put it more practically, Emil reckons he can get away with this....




..as long as no one argues with him about it.

Well the moderators obviously didn't take that view or they would have closed the thread down and in the final analysis it's their view that counts.

[Vonny]

A forum is like being in someone else's home. I wouldn't go into someone else's home and tell them what to do, and I wouldn't feel that they should explain why they do what they do in their home.

For example, I don't like shoes (that are worn on streets) worn inside my home. Everyone who comes to my home has to take off their shoes at the door. Once, when a group of people from my work came to my home, I made everyone take off their shoes, and then one guy said to me, "Honestly, my feet are probably dirtier than my shoes are." To that guy I said, "Keep your shoes on." If another guest in my home had said to that guy, "You need to take off your shoes because we had to take off ours," or if someone had said to me, "You need to make that guy take off his shoes or allow us to wear our shoes in your home," then I would wish that the overbearing, control-freak guy would leave. He would be less welcome in my home than the guy with the dirty feet wearing his dirty shoes.

If I went to someone's home and I didn't like it there, I'd just leave. If someone was being hurt in that home, I'd call the police, but otherwise I'd just leave.

Men have fought and died to allow others to have a conversation that is civilized and intelligent. If there's a good purpose for a war, that must be it.

This place is run responsibly and it seems we can just relax and let them do that, because we don't know exactly what criteria they use for deciding, and it is really none of our business.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

A forum is like being in someone else's home. I wouldn't go into someone else's home and tell them what to do, and I wouldn't feel that they should explain why they do what they do in their home.

For example, I don't like shoes (that are worn on streets) worn inside my home. Everyone who comes to my home has to take off their shoes at the door. Once, when a group of people from my work came to my home, I made everyone take off their shoes, and then one guy said to me, "Honestly, my feet are probably dirtier than my shoes are." To that guy I said, "Keep your shoes on." If another guest in my home had said to that guy, "You need to take off your shoes because we had to take off ours," or if someone had said to me, "You need to make that guy take off his shoes or allow us to wear our shoes in your home," then I would wish that the overbearing, control-freak guy would leave. He would be less welcome in my home than the guy with the dirty feet wearing his dirty shoes.

If I went to someone's home and I didn't like it there, I'd just leave. If someone was being hurt in that home, I'd call the police, but otherwise I'd just leave.

Men have fought and died to allow others to have a conversation that is civilized and intelligent. If there's a good purpose for a war, that must be it.

This place is run responsibly and it seems we can just relax and let them do that, because we don't know exactly what criteria they use for deciding, and it is really none of our business.
First, we do know the criteria -- NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS.

Second, these are privately run forums. They aren't a democracy that men have fought and died for. The private owner makes his own rules, rules that are enforced some areas, and others aren't. I have attempted to understand the interpretations, and they allude me. Sometimes it seems it's okay to discuss politics (or, more accurately here, just bash one ideology), and other times it isn't, with nary an explanation as to why which is which.

Third, since this is just one of many hundreds of rooms in a hypothetical home, it would be quite silly of me to leave the whole home, no? I should have never entered the room. I should leave the room, but now that I've stepped in the room, and have encountered many rooms like it, some with locked doors and some without, I shall attempt to understand the room, and why the door to the room has yet to be locked.

Fourth, your home analogy makes sense, because the man who gets to keep his shoes on has a reason he is allowed to keep his shoes on. The reason is understood. Now, if all your guests had equally clean shoes and feet, and you made some take off their shoes and others keep them on for no apparent reason (and, to make this analogy work, in your home there should be a sign that says, "No shoes in house"), that would be a more accurate interpretation of what we have with this amorphous "no politics" rule.

[Vonny]

First, we do know the criteria -- NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS.

Second, these are privately run forums. They aren't a democracy that men have fought and died for. The private owner makes his own rules, rules that are enforced some areas, and others aren't. I have attempted to understand the interpretations, and they allude me. Sometimes it seems it's okay to discuss politics (or, more accurately here, just bash one ideology), and other times it isn't, with nary an explanation as to why which is which.

Third, since this is just one of many hundreds of rooms in a hypothetical home, it would be quite silly of me to leave the whole home, no? I should have never entered the room. I should leave the room, but now that I've stepped in the room, and have encountered many rooms like it, some with locked doors and some without, I shall attempt to understand the room, and why the door to the room has yet to be locked.

Fourth, your home analogy makes sense, because the man who gets to keep his shoes on has a reason he is allowed to keep his shoes on. The reason is understood. Now, if all your guests had equally clean shoes and feet, and you made some take off their shoes and others keep them on for no apparent reason (and, to make this analogy work, in your home there should be a sign that says, "No shoes in house"), that would be a more accurate interpretation of what we have with this amorphous "no politics" rule.


Do you know everything there is to know about the owner? Do you know that he doesn't answer in some way to someone, that you don't understand?

We don't really know all about any one else.


Two wrongs don't make a right. If a conversation was cut off for some reason that you feel should have been allowed, that's unfortunate, but to try to stop someone else's conversation makes no sense, it seems to me. As long as no one who is present is being hurt, what is the problem? I don't understand this thread, but I don't think anyone is just spouting off evils. It's not like they are "bashing," because they're prejudiced against a group. They have intelligent explanations behind their feelings. And sometimes these issues have impacts. It's not just some arbitrary vague thing, called that "p" word. It's like all the wolves that will be completely wiped out in Wyoming if the wolves become unlisted from the endangered species list as there is a push to do, because it's not about just controlling the numbers, it's about wiping out whatever is in the way.

And sometimes I do things in my home that are completely illogical, because I perceive things differently at different times. Sometimes I let a person into my home with dirty feet if they have other redeeming qualities, and some people with clean feet don't get in. And I have no explanation.

And I don't want you to leave! That's not what I was saying.

And you have every right to disagree with me!

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Vonny, you're just so damn nice! :nod: You've convinced me, my campaign of negativity (in this thread, at least) is hereby ended. Be proud, because I'm usually quite the stubborn bastard.

[prendrelemick]

The trouble is all of life is politics.

Kafka's Crow makes a good point. But that is where the story is. I would like to provide some balance. Until last night it was difficult to do, but now The Sunday Mirror, a liberal paper, looks like being dragged into this, so if the thread is not closed a bit of balance could be on the way.

Mutis and Vonny I shouldn't worry, Like the other News Of The World, I reckon we are about to be closed down anyway, - they can't let us get away with this stuff much longer.:nono:

[Vonny]

Vonny, you're just so damn nice! :nod: You've convinced me, my campaign of negativity (in this thread, at least) is hereby ended. Be proud, because I'm usually quite the stubborn bastard.

Thanks Mutatis. The part of your statement that I bolded sounds just like my oldest brother.

Many people say I'm not nice at all. :)

And I have no idea why I really like you, even though you have no British charm, a filthy mouth :lol: (in violation of the no swearing policy, which others have probably been banned for, I might add), you listen to horrible "music", and watch football! I have no explanation!

Anyway, it used to be in Abraham Lincoln's day that people gathered in parks to listen to some guy, any crazy guy, on a podium, speaking for a few hours. We don't really have that kind of democracy anymore. Now we have this artificial world of the internet. It is cool that we can listen to people around the world, though.

I grew up in a very violent home, and I always understood, on a bone-deep level that I couldn't talk. When I went to school, I knew not to talk. It wasn't good. For the most part, there's no harm in people talking. It's worse if it's all bottled up.

I don't know, I may have a few things to say to you in the coming days on a couple of other threads. I've thought about it before, but couldn't bring myself to do it, somehow. :lol:

[prendrelemick]

Louise Mensch, Chic-lit authoress, MP, and member of THE COMMITTEE (the pretty blonde one.) used her Parlimentary Privilege to say Piers Morgan had authorised phone hacking at the Mirror, and infact that he hacked phones himself. Piers denies this with vigor. Last night on Newsnight a Journalist from the Mirror Group spilled the beans, Hacking for stories was routine. They even had a journalist who was called The Lord of the Dark Arts because he was so good at hacking, blagging and bugging.

In what would be a strange twist in any other story, enter Supermodel Niomi Cambell. She was interviewed by Piers in 2007, and turned the tables on him by asking him questions about his days at the Mirror. He boasted he knew "loads" of Journos who hacked phones, and that it went on all the time. Now, like Manuel in Faulty Towers, he knows nothing.

[MarkBastable]

Or to put it more practically, Emil reckons he can get away with this....

..as long as no one argues with him about it.


Well the moderators obviously didn't take that view or they would have closed the thread down...

..er..which probably means they did take that view. You got away with it, because no one argued with you about it.


However, we could test the theory, if you like. I could argue with you about it.

[Vonny]

Or to put it more practically, Emil reckons he can get away with this....

..as long as no one argues with him about it.



..er..probably which means they did take that view. You got away with it, because no one argued with you about it.


However, we could test the theory, if you like. I could argue with you about it.

I have no idea what the topic is, but...


If you have a viable counter-point that you believe in, fire away. Let's hear all sides.

Or do you want to argue for the sake of arguing, and to knock someone down? In other words, are you like several members of my "family"? Because, I'll tell you, your expression does have some resemblance. :lol:

I gosh, I love the internet, now that I'm getting into it, I can walk away without having my face smashed!

[billl]

Or do you want to argue for the sake of arguing, and to knock someone down? In other words, are you like several members of my "family"? Because, I'll tell you, your expression does have some resemblance.


We can see it showing, Vonny. What was that you were saying earlier about stepping in to disrupt or stop someone else's conversation?

Seriously, long before you ever posted here, many of us learned that this site is complete crap once someone posts about "liberals" or "conservatives" and someone else responds.

[Vonny]

We can see it showing, Vonny. What was that you were saying earlier about stepping in to disrupt or stop someone else's conversation?

Seriously, long before you ever posted here, many of us learned that this site is complete crap once someone posts about "liberals" or "conservatives" and someone else responds. We don't really need to hear all sides, and we'd appreciate it if both sides kept in mind that the other didn't want to hear it, before posting, when it comes to politics. Your support of either practice is simply a case of seeing half the picture.


I think it should be left to the moderators to decide. They do their job. It's not up to me, and it's not up to you.

And really, how does all of this discussion about what is political or not improve anything? It's just dull.

I remember you billl from that thread I posted on ...a long time ago.

Hey, what does that mean: "we can see it showing" ?? I'm not trying to stop anyone's conversation. I encouraged Mark to present his side if has one that he believes in.

I'm done with this conversation now. You want to use me to get the thread shut down. I understand your kind well because I've lived my entire life with them.

[billl]

Vonny, It really could've been left alone. It IS dull. And I certainly raised no objections, when it occurred. However, Mutatis was right. It seems the mods are not following this thread too closely, and that is a change, probably for the worse.

Anyhow, the question is: Should Mark gallantly be given credit for ignoring Emil's political lecturing, OR should Emil be allowed to behave as if his post were a simple objective statement that any right-thinking person would lend credence?

What was that you said earlier, about interfering with other people's discussions?

Why not let Mark engage Emil on an issue of politics raised by Emil, Vonny? Why jump in and scold? Why do you argue for the sake of arguing? Let them be.

[MarkBastable]

I'm done with this conversation now.

See, that's quite an irritating thing about the Net. People can come in, say what they feel the need to say, and as soon as they are challenged they can say, "I'm done..." and walk away. Even if they've opened with, 'I have no idea what the topic is...'

[billl]

Vonny, I'm sorry about your family, but here we are on the internet, trying to discuss a British newspaper, and... Well, you jumped in.

[MystyrMystyry]

This is all part of current affairs - any mention of politics in this thread isn't a valid argument about politics, because in politics one has an idea, a thousand toe the party line, while millions disagree.

In NOTW one has an idea, a thousand sheep copy, and a few are getting the blame (admittedly they should be blamed for condoning bad practice, but blame where blame's due, and I'll bet there are countless more who'll never get their just deserts)

Bring on the whistle blowers! :)

[papayahed]

Now that we have completely moved away from the original topic with no possibility of return this thread will be closed.