All Things Must Pass

[Jack of Hearts]

All things must pass.


How does this thought affect you? Are you eager for new horizons? Do you feel anxiety about the nature of time?

Maybe this thought is meant to encourage us to live in the moment- whatever that means. What does 'living in the moment' mean to you?

For his response, this poster is consciously aware that he is getting older. Time is becoming more valuable. He would spend more time writing, if he could get his lines of production in order (creativity comes and goes, it seems).

This poster has always highly valued individual experience and perspective- so he's trying to coax you into sharing yours.







J



EDIT: (Sorry if you were expecting this thread to be analysis of George Harrison's eponymously titled and pioneering 'triple' album from 1970.)

[LitNetIsGreat]

There's been quite a few threads on this subject over the weeks. You might be interested in this one:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61529

(See the video link in particular.)

It is of course a subject that's found throughout the art and literature, from the earliest recorded work, through Shakespeare, Romanticism and more contemporary literature and philosophy. Such would seem to suggest that the nagging thought is never far from the surface!

Personally, I'm probably like most people, such thoughts come and go sometimes for sure but I don't dwell on them too long. Right now I'm thinking about tennis (I'm addicted to tennis at the moment, playing it that is) which restaurant/bars/pubs we are going to go to tonight (and if I can't try and sneak in a bite to eat in the afternoon) my bacon sandwich at 11.30, cutting the hedge if the rain holds off, beer or wine etc, etc, these I consider very important anyway. :smilewinkgrin:

I like the scene from Hannah and Her Sisters in which the Woody character asks his father about the concept of death (or was it Nazis?) and he replies "I don't know about any of that, I don't even know how the tin opener works" or words to that effect. My point is that sometimes it is pointless to dwell. Just use the tin opener.

[Panglossian]

To me, living in the moment is captured by the word mindfulness - with (acceptance) beside it in brackets.

"All things must pass" ... On the one hand I find the saying pleasing. To be forever HERE increasingly knowing one's inescapable limitations would be a fate worse than death.
On the other hand it seems to be quite a materialistic saying, chained to a worldview which does not necessarily represent all that is the case.

[Gladys]

To live in the moment is to reject the past as a basis for acting, and to accept that the future never comes. Now is all there is.

[Bluehound]

I am sometimes painfully aware of the passage of time.
When my youngest sister turned 16 I was gripped with an urge to shake her and beg her not to waste another day having fun and being a teenager.
For me 16 was nearly 2 decades ago , but they have flown by so fast it makes my head spin.
But you can't tell them - she wont believe how fast time goes till it happens to her, then it will be too late. By which time I will be another twenty years on again ...scary stuff.


I have lost loved ones through death of different kinds, some sudden and some slow, and it makes me realize that all those old clichés about making the most of people while you can are so true. And yet I know I don't.

[Buh4Bee]

I really like the beginning video posted by Neely about Woody Allen's pessimism. Woody makes the point that he works all the time so he doesn't sit around and think about negative stuff. If you are the type that can be overly analytical, small trivial distracts are terrific. I dear friend point out to me that I think too much ;) Maybe so, but we all need to think a little.

Ultimately my point is that you should take the advice from my good friend and not think so much. Just write, create, and then through the creative process you can think about it. Maybe you are doing research and I guess that is different from what I am talking about.

[Jack of Hearts]

This reader is trying to give the good discussion each response deserves. He's composing on a mobile device so bear with him



There's been quite a few threads on this subject over the weeks. You might be interested in this one:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=61529

(See the video link in particular.)

It is of course a subject that's found throughout the art and literature, from the earliest recorded work, through Shakespeare, Romanticism and more contemporary literature and philosophy. Such would seem to suggest that the nagging thought is never far from the surface!

Personally, I'm probably like most people, such thoughts come and go sometimes for sure but I don't dwell on them too long. Right now I'm thinking about tennis (I'm addicted to tennis at the moment, playing it that is) which restaurant/bars/pubs we are going to go to tonight (and if I can't try and sneak in a bite to eat in the afternoon) my bacon sandwich at 11.30, cutting the hedge if the rain holds off, beer or wine etc, etc, these I consider very important anyway.*

I like the scene from Hannah and Her Sisters in which the Woody character asks his father about the concept of death (or was it Nazis?) and he replies "I don't know about any of that, I don't even know how the tin opener works" or words to that effect. My point is that sometimes it is pointless to dwell. Just use the tin opener.

The thread referenced is worthy indeed but this reader feels the connection between these two conversations is left too implicit- he's not precisely sure what you mean when you say "this subject."*

If you are referring to the perception of time and how it affects the individual. there's a piggybacked implication you've tacked on to the question at hand- a very related one to be sure but it slightly pollutes the subject at hand: Reflections about time are not necessarily negative nor grounds for existential crisis. It may be somewhat confusing in the original post because this poster provided his response that invoked these things (as that is what he, personally, is feeling).

So the untainted question could be rephrased as 'How do you feel about the passage of time?' rather than 'The passage of time is an existential dilemma and I (the original poster) feel anxiety about this. Do you?'

Consider the perspective of someone in some form of temporary pain- wouldn't the thought 'all things must pass' be comforting to that person?

You've cleary advocated a position of avoidance/distraction in your response. This may be the healthier way of living *when it comes to thinking about these things and seems to be practical wisdom. Then, by extension, such thoughts and questions are 'negative' and to be avoided? A sort of looming darkness set upon consciousness?

And this poster is going to repose the initial question, to see if you'll bite- when avoidance or distraction cease to function as desired and the thought of time passing enters your mind, what do you feel about it? Perhaps a reader can infer from your response that you associate negative qualities with it?

Thanks for your response.


To me, living in the moment is captured by the word mindfulness - with (acceptance) beside it in brackets.

"All things must pass" ... On the one hand I find the saying pleasing. To be forever HERE increasingly knowing one's inescapable limitations would be a fate worse than death.
On the other hand it seems to be quite a materialistic saying, chained to a worldview which does not necessarily represent all that is the case.

A worthy definition, to start off. It appears you don't necessarily embrace the unbridled optimism that Voltaire satirized through your namesake Panglossian. The 'meaty' part of
it, to this reader, is in the details: acceptance of what? And is mindfulness just being aware of one's surroundings? Sorry for being a bit circular, but what is mindfulness?.

And what are these 'inescapable limitations', but more importantly, how are we chained to them and why do you perceive this 'chaining' as negative?

Your last bit is enormously interesting. It seems you feel the saying has a lot of presupposition to it and you are probably right. You seem to indicate that the saying itself stems from a perspective that is specific and limited- but aren't you implicating a degree of agnosticism when you say that? Is there a 'better' perspective, more inclusive, that you feel a person could hold? Can a human being experience 'all that is the case' as you put it, or are we hopeless there?

Thanks for an interesting response.


To live in the moment is to reject the past as a basis for acting, and to accept that the future never comes. Now is all there is.

Thanks for the response.

Your reader thinks there's wisdom in your response but he's stupid and needs it broken down. What does 'reject the past' mean and how does one do it? He's willing to accept, deductively, that 'now is all there is' if you explain that and give some presentation of how or why the future 'never comes.' That seems a bit counter intuitive, but he's heard crazier things anyways.

Also, are you implying that you feel not one way or the other about the passage of time because you've justified away its existence?



I am sometimes painfully aware of the passage of time.
When my youngest sister turned 16 I was gripped with an urge to shake her and beg her not to waste another day having fun and being a teenager.
For me 16 was nearly 2 decades ago , but they have flown by so fast it makes my head spin.
But you can't tell them - she wont believe how fast time goes till it happens to her, then it will be too late. By which time I will be another twenty years on again ...scary stuff.


I have lost loved ones through death of different kinds, some sudden and some slow, and it makes me realize that all those old clichés about making the most of people while you can are so true. And yet I know I don't.

A lot of humanity in this response, Ol'Blue. Glad you shared it. There's less to analyze here and more to appreciate. Isn't funny how you know something but opposing can't or don't put the knowledge into practice? A strange form of dissonance- would you be happier if you lived that way? Do you see yourself in the memory of your sister, whom you gave that advice to so long ago?


" You're my boy, Blue!"

... and thanks for wonderful input.


I really like the beginning video posted by Neely about Woody Allen's pessimism. Woody makes the point that he works all the time so he doesn't sit around and think about negative stuff. If you are the type that can be overly analytical, small trivial distracts are terrific. I dear friend point out to me that I think too much *Maybe so, but we all need to think a little.*

Ultimately my point is that you should take the advice from my good friend and not think so much. Just write, create, and then through the creative process you can think about it. Maybe you are doing research and I guess that is different from what I am talking about.

Neely is a good poster with good taste in movies. It seems the first part of what you wrote is at least partly built on that previous response. Maybe too much consciousness isn't such a good thing.

jersea, your practicality is part of your appeal. It's sound advice- but this poster fears you may have mistaken his own input for the question he'd like to pose to you- how do you feel about the passage of time? Is it really only something to be dismissed as 'thinking to much'?

As always, thanks for your input.

And again, thanks to everyone for contributing. Excellent responses.




J

[Paulclem]

All things must pass.

It's one of those phrases that becomes central to life. We unconsciously struggle against this fact, and we're often in denial about it.

A loved one goes to the hospital for a life threatening injury, but survives and comes out. As we're walking down the hospital steps on our way home, we're not thinking - You're still going to die in the end. We're naturally happy that the person has recovered, and we can get on with our lives. But it's still true. All things, and us, pass.

We're encapsulated by this phrase. It is inescapeable, but we often live these episodic lives thinking - phew I'm glad that's over, and re-focusing upon happier things.

But to live with this phrase without adopting a positive attitude is very likely to drive us to depression or worse. How do we cope with this inescapeability?

Cheerfulness and making the most of what you've got. :D

[JuniperWoolf]

This phrase only passes through my head when I'm very sick. I'll think "this won't last forever, you'll get better or you'll die but you won't be throwing up forever." Of course, that's pretty dramatic since I'm usually just suffering from a flu or a hangover, but it still helps a lot.

[Jack of Hearts]

But to live with this phrase without adopting a positive attitude is very likely to drive us to depression or worse.

First you're late to the party and then you walk in with that little number on your arm?

(This reader was hoping you'd jump in sooner or later, PaulClem.)

Reading that was like a bell going off in the distance. That's relatable- that's the 'truth' this reader wants to believe, the bit about the postivity.

It's this thought: All things must pass, and our posture to it perhaps? And our perspective of it changes episodically? How very interesting. What episode are you in right now, PaulClem? All things must pass, you know...
how do you presently feel about that? And how do you anticipate feeling about that tomorrow?


This phrase only passes through my head when I'm very sick. I'll think "this won't last forever, you'll get better or you'll die but you won't be throwing up forever." Of course, that's pretty dramatic since I'm usually just suffering from a flu or a hangover, but it still helps a lot.

This was funny and unexpected. In its way it's a perfect counter example to the other side of coin, the passage of time as despair/negative, etc. But how about right now, JuniperWoolf? All things must pass... how do you feel about that? Unless you're sick, which would be rather unfortuitous for this question.


Thanks for the input you two, and for the making the conversation a little more interesting.




J

[Gladys]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladys
To live in the moment is to reject the past as a basis for acting, and to accept that the future never comes. Now is all there is.

What does 'reject the past' mean and how does one do it? He's willing to accept, deductively, that 'now is all there is' if you explain that and give some presentation of how or why the future 'never comes.' That seems a bit counter intuitive, but he's heard crazier things anyways.

Also, are you implying that you feel not one way or the other about the passage of time because you've justified away its existence?

By 'reject the past' I mean take the past for what it's worth when dealing with people, with relationships, with what most matters. The past is a hotchpotch of unreliable memory fragments. With the passing of time, we create stories that owe little to past events because these events are always too complex to fathom - we miss so much - and we soon forget even more. The blurring of the present with our muddled and shady history is unprofitable: too dark, unstable and unreliable for safe and happy travel. Since actions based on such a past are inevitably flawed, we should rely on evidence in the present to drive our significant interactions with people.

I say 'now is all there is' because the future 'never comes.' We simply have no choice but to live in the present moment, except in our imaginings. Living wholeheartedly in the present moment empowers us: we make kinder choices in our interactions with others. We would do well to focus on a unique present moment.

I do not feel a strong sense of the passage of time, which I suspect has a strong cultural basis, because now is the time.

[Panglossian]

but what is mindfulness?.J

Questioning is good. Definite answers are … well, not so good. A wiseman should be a whys-man. Thus invisible question-marks pepper everything I think and write. I am uncertain and I wouldn't pretend to be otherwise.

You ask what is mindfulness? Well if pushed to define it I suppose I would say that it is observing without fixed belief; it’s about non-attachment and being choicelessly aware; it’s about seeing what is for what it is not. And why? … to dissolve illusion; to break down the ego; to weaken conditionings; to move towards the core of one’s being. - But all this is words-words-words which can be doubted and questioned, and rightly so. Mindfulness is a process. Beyond that the words run out …

You wrote: Is there a 'better' perspective, more inclusive, that you feel a person could hold?

Perhaps All things must be, even death - which to me feels more whole; more grounded in the here and now; less open to pessimism. But maybe I'm just clutching at straws.

[jajdude]

Obvious as it is, the good and bad both pass, replaced by good and bad.

[MarkBastable]

My own passing? I think of little else. Not a day passes that the inevitability of my death doesn't occur to me.

I think it's a good thing. It keeps everything else in perspective.

[Paulclem]

It's this thought: All things must pass, and our posture to it perhaps? And our perspective of it changes episodically? How very interesting. What episode are you in right now, PaulClem? All things must pass, you know...
how do you presently feel about that? And how do you anticipate feeling about that tomorrow?

J

The episode I am in at the moment is the episode they don't tell you about. I'm in middle age with financially needy kids - Uni and finishing school next year, but with aged relatives who are time needy. It's not a rock and hard place exactly, but requires shopping and hospital and doctor and prescriptions picking up on the one hand, with cash and day to day stuff on the other. Then of course there's full time work - though I do get good hols. I have to add that my wife deals with a lot of the relatives stuff and the kids too.

This is just a phase and will radically change over the next few years. (The old Uncle is 87 and the old auntie, -unrelated to the old Uncle and living at the other side of the city- is 89). The kids will also become more independant over the next 5 years.

As you can see, this episode is quite a full one, and could really occupy much of our time and thinking. It could breed resentment and bad moods, but the sense of their reliance is strong. When you sign up for children, it's a lifelong contract and will include their children.

As for the relatives, responsibility is a good thing. All the time you can reflect that one day it will be you getting the hospital transport to the wound clinic to cure the ulcers on your legs or having to rely upon others to get your pills from the chemists and your shopping form the supermarket.

Perhaps it's too much for some. Maybe it's where the mid-life crises comes from with the varying degrees of pessure. The only certain thing though is that this situation will both subtly and suddenly change. It will pass. As ever in life, this will be both a source of relief and sorrow. Part of maturity is being able to deal with those two together. Mr Relief and Mrs Sorrow will sit with you at the next funeral of a relative. Mr Relief is often brief, but Mrs Sorrow wil be with you tomorrow. You just get used to her prescence.

Although you might be busy with work etc etc, this sense of the new generation coming up to replace you is also strong, because at the other end of life are the relatives you're replacing. It's quite a poignant time really, and a priviledge to witness. Busy though!! It's only when you're in this situation that people start saying - oh yeah - I had that. I think people tend not to moan or really talk about the stages in life they're going through. I know we're not all Woody Allen, but a bit of warning would be good.:D

[Jack of Hearts]

By 'reject the past' I mean take the past for what it's worth when dealing with people, with relationships, with what most matters. The past is a hotchpotch of unreliable memory fragments. With the passing of time, we create stories that owe little to past events because these events are always too complex to fathom - we miss so much - and we soon forget even more. The blurring of the present with our muddled and shady history is unprofitable: too dark, unstable and unreliable for safe and happy travel. Since actions based on such a past are inevitably flawed, we should rely on evidence in the present to drive our significant interactions with people.

I say 'now is all there is' because the future 'never comes.' We simply have no choice but to live in the present moment, except in our imaginings. Living wholeheartedly in the present moment empowers us: we make kinder choices in our interactions with others. We would do well to focus on a unique present moment.

I do not feel a strong sense of the passage of time, which I suspect has a strong cultural basis, because now is the time.
This is thoughtful and interesting.
It seems there’s some important things to pick out of your response. First, memory is unreliable. And Gladys, that seems to be true alright. Maybe this reader’s response to you is going to be a bit extrapolated for the context you’ve given, but he hopes you’ll humor him…

Isn’t learning at least somewhat dependent on memory? And if so, doesn’t learning affect the ‘now’ via the decisions we make?

… and do you think there is a ‘past’, regardless of whether or not we’ve forgotten it, or constructed half fictions on it? (This poster is not trying to frustrate you, as you mostly seem to be saying it’s good to hold the perspective that our personal histories are faulty reconstructions at best- but, again, hopefully you’ll see it as at least a somewhat similar concept to say experience affects our decisions in the now. Unless, of course, you’re saying that it shouldn’t.)
And a final question (sorry, just full of ‘em today)… how do you feel about experience in general? Do you assign a lot of value for experience (in the context presented above)?
Personally, this reader feels that, accompanied by other faculties, experience is invaluable.


Questioning is good. Definite answers are … well, not so good. A wiseman should be a whys-man. Thus invisible question-marks pepper everything I think and write. I am uncertain and I wouldn't pretend to be otherwise.

You ask what is mindfulness? Well if pushed to define it I suppose I would say that it is observing without fixed belief; it’s about non-attachment and being choicelessly aware; it’s about seeing what is for what it is not. And why? … to dissolve illusion; to break down the ego; to weaken conditionings; to move towards the core of one’s being. - But all this is words-words-words which can be doubted and questioned, and rightly so. Mindfulness is a process. Beyond that the words run out …

You wrote: Is there a 'better' perspective, more inclusive, that you feel a person could hold?

Perhaps All things must be, even death - which to me feels more whole; more grounded in the here and now; less open to pessimism. But maybe I'm just clutching at straws.
What you’ve said about uncertainty seems spot on. But, like a true Why’s Man, you’ve decided to poke at the subject with a poking stick. This is what we do, isn’t it?

And your definition of mindfulness is admirably good. If this reader were being obnoxious (well, purposefully being obnoxious anyway, hopefully you aren’t sick of being questioned to death), he would pick out that bit you wrote about being and poke at it with a poking stick. But that’s not what we’re interested in- well, not what we’re mostly interested in anyways. Maybe this next question will be a bit more of a tell in regards to where this interest lies.

Can you think of a time when you were particularly mindful?

And is it anything like this?:


Mindfulness? (http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/friends_and_family_worry_as_athlete_may_be_permane ntly_stuck_in_zone/4728319)

And, if you feel like explaining further the rationale for keeping death in perspective, this reader would be interested as well- not sure he entirely follows where you went with that one.


Obvious as it is, the good and bad both pass, replaced by good and bad.

Seems a middle of the road kind of philosophy. The Dude, haven’t you mentioned that you’re in China? It may not be relevant in that country’s society today, but it makes this reader think ofConfucianism- didn’t Confucius say that he didn’t ‘actualize himself (or, in his philosophy, become the gentleman) until he was close to eighty years old?


At fifteen my heart was set on learning; at thirty I stood firm; at forty I had no more doubts; at fifty I knew the mandate of heaven; at sixty my ear was obedient; at seventy I could follow my heart's desire without transgressing the norm.

And also:


Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day.

So it seems plausible to say that Confucius had a relatively sunny view of aging and the passage of time. Do you really think there’s not something to that? Do you feel that good or bad that comes could be, either in part or full, a choice?

And, as an aside for personal interest, does anybody in modern China care about Confucianism anymore?

Thanks for the input, The Dude. Always good to hear from you.


My own passing? I think of little else. Not a day passes that the inevitability of my death doesn't occur to me.

I think it's a good thing. It keeps everything else in perspective.

Thank’s for jumping in, MarkBastable. This reader has read some of you previous postings as he’s browsed across these boards and knows two things for certain- firstly, he doesn’t want to rile your sense of mischief up, and secondly, you’ve more than likely got some excellent ideas to share about this.

In response to Dr. Pangloss’ reply above, this reader wanted to know why it’s good to keep a general awareness of death in the back of one’s mind?

Incidentally, here’s a fellow who agrees with you (begrudge you nothing if you don’t watch this- although it is pretty inspiring, it’s also fairly long):


Some Loser Who Agrees With Mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc)

Also, do you really ruminate upon your own mortality firstly and foremostly on a daily basis? Or is this something you strive for but sometimes fumble in the practicality of day to day living? It’s so easy to get caught up in the details. We’re phone bills. We’re credit card payments.


The episode I am in at the moment is the episode they don't tell you about. I'm in middle age with financially needy kids - Uni and finishing school next year, but with aged relatives who are time needy. It's not a rock and hard place exactly, but requires shopping and hospital and doctor and prescriptions picking up on the one hand, with cash and day to day stuff on the other. Then of course there's full time work - though I do get good hols. I have to add that my wife deals with a lot of the relatives stuff and the kids too.

This is just a phase and will radically change over the next few years. (The old Uncle is 87 and the old auntie, -unrelated to the old Uncle and living at the other side of the city- is 89). The kids will also become more independant over the next 5 years.

As you can see, this episode is quite a full one, and could really occupy much of our time and thinking. It could breed resentment and bad moods, but the sense of their reliance is strong. When you sign up for children, it's a lifelong contract and will include their children.

As for the relatives, responsibility is a good thing. All the time you can reflect that one day it will be you getting the hospital transport to the wound clinic to cure the ulcers on your legs or having to rely upon others to get your pills from the chemists and your shopping form the supermarket.

Perhaps it's too much for some. Maybe it's where the mid-life crises comes from with the varying degrees of pessure. The only certain thing though is that this situation will both subtly and suddenly change. It will pass. As ever in life, this will be both a source of relief and sorrow. Part of maturity is being able to deal with those two together. Mr Relief and Mrs Sorrow will sit with you at the next funeral of a relative. Mr Relief is often brief, but Mrs Sorrow wil be with you tomorrow. You just get used to her prescence.

Although you might be busy with work etc etc, this sense of the new generation coming up to replace you is also strong, because at the other end of life are the relatives you're replacing. It's quite a poignant time really, and a priviledge to witness. Busy though!! It's only when you're in this situation that people start saying - oh yeah - I had that. I think people tend not to moan or really talk about the stages in life they're going through. I know we're not all Woody Allen, but a bit of warning would be good.

Not going to lie, P.C., this sounds absolutely awful.


Mr. Relief is often brief, but Mrs. Sorrow will be with you tomorrow. (This rhymes.)

It seems you find yourself between two things, both coming and going. That seems awfully uncomfortable. Then again your entire response reeks of practicality and experience.

Do you really feel you were ‘blind-sided’ (as per your episode being ‘the one they don’t tell you about)? And there seems to be a sense of deontology in regards to how you treat your elder relatives- it’s the duty of your generation, a duty that will pass to the next when you can no longer fulfill it for yourself or for others.

This poster isn’t really picking up on a lot of positivity in the response. Yes, having children is expensive, time consuming, soul-crushing, etc. Yet we still do it. When you look back and think of children before they went to ‘Uni’ (in quotes because American english demands distance from this term), do you find you miss any of those times? And if so, what do you miss about them?

And then the follow up would be (if your responses permit)- will the same be true of present times as they become subject to the passage of time?

This reader finds himself fundamentally adverse to such a seemingly bleak view of life- even if it were absolute truth he would convince himself (lie) into a different and false perspective. Maybe you can blame that on youth, or lack of understanding- and if there’s one thing this reader lacks, it’s experience.

But you’ve given small insight into what it’s like to walk in your shoes via your excellent response P.C., and thanks as always.








J

[Gladys]

Isn’t learning at least somewhat dependent on memory? And if so, doesn’t learning affect the ‘now’ via the decisions we make? … and do you think there is a ‘past’, regardless of whether or not we’ve forgotten it, or constructed half fictions on it?

We use the smidgin we have learned, have remembered, to try and make some sense of the present moment. The ‘past’ is this corrupted smidgin that we and others retain and use to affect our decisions in the now, and often for the worse. If for the worse, our past is worthless and better ignored.


...how do you feel about experience in general? Do you assign a lot of value for experience (in the context presented above)?

Is experience that builds our world-view valuable? It is often a millstone round our necks. Reading the present deserves so much attention, and is complicated enough without the baggage of a misunderstood past. The benefit of experience, in the sense that an infant experiences the environment and learns quickly, is beyond dispute, although, even an infant’s experience may be problematic in radically changed circumstances.

[billl]

Still, we don't want to revert to insects, living in the moment, vulnerable to confidence schemes, manipulated by those with some form of foresight, etc..

These days, it is common online to find Eckhart Tolle fans (sounding each one like the other, and often to an alarming degree)--promoting a world in which people hover through life simply responding to cues, with the bargain being that via the mastery of the trick of forgoing the "suffering" of expectation and uncertainty, one might become a more and more successful tool for... something. Something we should just accept.

We must assume, I suppose, that its dignity and worth would be greater than the human individual that has struggled to come to be over so many years, what with its more traditional notions of "consciousness" and "mindfulness", notions that span more than the present. Anyhow, I have no doubt that it might be a wise course for some extreme trauma victims who are dealing with terrible memories, or for people whose expectations are completely unrealistic and/or obsessive. And, really, we ALL should try to not OVERthink things, now and then, case by case.

But if the modern world were to begin to require such extreme coping measures to be put in place to such an extreme degree (e.g. The NOW is all we have), I think it might be worth the effort to consider altering societal development, rather than increasing the ability of individuals to cope with and tolerate uncomfortable schemes that befall us over the course of time. Why throw reason out the window, or regard it as some sort of sin?

Personally, I will live in the moment when it's appropriate, as well as straddle my best guesses about experience and intuition, and take into personal counsel the appropriate application of reason about states of affairs, however imperfect my total knowledge might be.

[MarkBastable]

Thank’s for jumping in, MarkBastable. This reader has read some of you previous postings as he’s browsed across these boards and knows two things for certain- firstly, he doesn’t want to rile your sense of mischief up, and secondly, you’ve more than likely got some excellent ideas to share about this.



JoH, you sound a bit wary of me - which I suppose is quite flattering.

Still, my post was absolutely sincere. I do think about my own death daily. Or, to be more accurate, I think about my return to non-existence.

The problem with being old is not that you've got so many years behind you - it's that you have so few ahead of you.

Gladys - concerning the reliability of memory, I think you have to say what you're relying on it for. If you're relying on it for a 360-degree, multi-faceted, objectively verifiable record of past events, then, yes, it's unreliable. But that's a bit like complaining that reading glasses make unreliable radar systems.

Memory is completely reliable as an editor - in other words, cutting out stuff, sexing up stuff, giving narrative form to stuff is what it's supposed to do. And the story it creates we call experience - which is a personal and on the whole unshareable movie of how the world works, as produced by the motion picture company Younger-You, Incorporated.

It's difficult to think of a better system for informing your present, really.

[Paulclem]

Not going to lie, P.C., this sounds absolutely awful.


Mr. Relief is often brief, but Mrs. Sorrow will be with you tomorrow. (This rhymes.)

It seems you find yourself between two things, both coming and going. That seems awfully uncomfortable. Then again your entire response reeks of practicality and experience.

Do you really feel you were ‘blind-sided’ (as per your episode being ‘the one they don’t tell you about)? And there seems to be a sense of deontology in regards to how you treat your elder relatives- it’s the duty of your generation, a duty that will pass to the next when you can no longer fulfill it for yourself or for others.

This poster isn’t really picking up on a lot of positivity in the response. Yes, having children is expensive, time consuming, soul-crushing, etc. Yet we still do it. When you look back and think of children before they went to ‘Uni’ (in quotes because American english demands distance from this term), do you find you miss any of those times? And if so, what do you miss about them?

And then the follow up would be (if your responses permit)- will the same be true of present times as they become subject to the passage of time?

This reader finds himself fundamentally adverse to such a seemingly bleak view of life- even if it were absolute truth he would convince himself (lie) into a different and false perspective. Maybe you can blame that on youth, or lack of understanding- and if there’s one thing this reader lacks, it’s experience.

But you’ve given small insight into what it’s like to walk in your shoes via your excellent response P.C., and thanks as always.
J

It's not so awful as I've perhaps said. This episode is not full just of these situations, but I though that it was interesting to have this forwards backwards view of time through the elderly relatives and the kids. At the moment they do define parts of this episode , but then, it will pass.

Yes I felt blind sided - but it wasn't a sudden event, but a growing into. That makes it more comfortable. It was the gradual realisation that this was the situation , and that things had irrevocably changed. You grow into your children, or your house etc, though the state can't ever be static. it changes slowly enough to give the impression of it being static most of the time though. I think this aspect of our experience of life - the slowness of usual change - is what gives us the illusion of permanence.

Any impression that I resent providing for the kids, or devoting time to the elderly relatives is merely accidental. The kids are in a good place, and I want them to be there. Their neediness is just a fact, as is the neediness of the elderly relatives. As for the deontology of the elderly relatives - nothing is intentional. I think as the elderly decline and become vulnerable and more relant, that it is easy to forget how they helped you. It's easy to see how the elderly in homes are poorly regarded because there is not the family history or connection that maintains a proper respect. A symptom of their decline is that they become very different to how you remember them. Aspects of their characters pass because of their situation.

I miss times when my kids were younger. There were things we did then that we don't do now of course. Yet, each age has its compensations. The conversation is more adult - though this lessens my excuse to be silly. (It doesn't stop me though). I'm fortunate in that my kids are people I like and respect, and no doubt we'll look back on this episode when they were both at home and we could enjoy their company.

Life is ultimately bleak, with occaisional bleak times leading up to this fact. It's very easy to foget how incredibly lucky we are on the whole though. We don't have the sufferings of past generations. That's good we say - of course. The danger is that we become attached to a particular comfort, place, episode, person, people, practice - whatever, and when the time comes for them or us to pass, then our comfort and enjoyment then merely serves to heighten our sense of loss. This is a Buddhist view - to which I subscribe. It sounds bleak - and will be if we let it affect us that way. The aim is to enjoy, take part, fully engage in life - but to remain mindful of it's essential impermanence and not be fooled into/ develp a negative mindset of an attachment that then bites us. The acceptance that things will pass helps. Going with the flow helps. Being positive helps. Being mindful not to cause suffering, or rather too much suffering, helps.

[JuniperWoolf]

My own passing? I think of little else. Not a day passes that the inevitability of my death doesn't occur to me.

Thank you, I thought that I was the only one who would admit to how freaky is the idea of becomming non-existant. Has it never pushed you towards "spirituality" or whatever, even in such a form as I'm-aware-of-how-unlikely-it-is wishful thinking?

[jajdude]

Jack wrote: "And, as an aside for personal interest, does anybody in modern China care about Confucianism anymore?"

I'm not an expert on the ins and outs of this culture or any other. I don't think Confucianism is huge here, though teachers tend to be respected I think, and perhaps age is significant. The bigger thing at play is the concept of "face". Avoid embarrassing each other seems to be central here. Lies and cheating are more acceptable in a "face first" society.

I've been here about two years in total. I lived in South Korea much longer than this. There they have what some call 'Neo-Confucianism'. Age is almighty, as is status, so much so that the language you use must be deferential to elders, even a 12 year old might show this to a 13 year old. Kids in different grades will not considers themselves friends. A guy at a bar might learn you are months older, then pour you a beer with two hands and speak nicer. Socioeconomic status is critical too. I think South Korea took Confucianism too far. It's messed up and a lot of Koreans are weary of the game.

[MarkBastable]

Thank you, I thought that I was the only one who would admit to how freaky is the idea of becomming non-existant. Has it never pushed you towards "spirituality" or whatever, even in such a form as I'm-aware-of-how-unlikely-it-is wishful thinking?

....Nah.

[Gladys]

Still, we don't want to revert to insects, living in the moment, vulnerable to confidence schemes, manipulated by those with some form of foresight ...

But if the modern world were to begin to require such extreme coping measures to be put in place to such an extreme degree (e.g. The NOW is all we have), I think it might be worth the effort to consider altering societal development, rather than increasing the ability of individuals to cope with and tolerate uncomfortable schemes that befall us over the course of time. Why throw reason out the window, or regard it as some sort of sin?

Personally, I will live in the moment when it's appropriate, as well as straddle my best guesses about experience and intuition, and take into personal counsel the appropriate application of reason about states of affairs, however imperfect my total knowledge might be.

By the NOW is all we have I rather mean, and aspire, to the nuanced world-view of Prince Myshkin in Dostoevsky's The Idiot. After many months in a Swiss sanatorium, apparently for some mental illness, The prince has returned to Russia. His endlessly surprising interactions with people are interpreted as naiveté by his peers. Unlike his Russian friends, the prince acts with peerless insight, wisdom and courage in each situation that confronts him.

For instance, before leaving Switzerland the adults mock him for the rapport he develops with school children and the poor, consumptive Marie. In Petersburg at the house of General Yepanchin, the prince is confronted by the nihilist gate-crashers and treats Ippolit and his tipsy mates with such discernment as to amaze the cultivated guests. In his interactions with Nastasya Filippovna and Aglaya, the prince alone acts with a heightened awareness of their present needs. And finally, he lies weeping on the cheek of the madcap Roghozin, who has just murdered the Prince Myshkin's betrothed, Nastasya Filippovna. Always free of prejudice, the baggage of the past or ambitions for the future, present imperatives drives this the wisest and most heroic of men.

And things turns out, through serendipity, rather badly? Perhaps so, but what an inspiring and timeless way to live – what searing integrity!

[Vonny]

It's not so awful as I've perhaps said. This episode is not full just of these situations, but I though that it was interesting to have this forwards backwards view of time through the elderly relatives and the kids. At the moment they do define parts of this episode, but then, it will pass.

Yes I felt blind sided - but it wasn't a sudden event, but a growing into. That makes it more comfortable. It was the gradual realisation that this was the situation , and that things had irrevocably changed. You grow into your children, or your house etc, though the state can't ever be static. it changes slowly enough to give the impression of it being static most of the time though. I think this aspect of our experience of life - the slowness of usual change - is what gives us the illusion of permanence.

Any impression that I resent providing for the kids, or devoting time to the elderly relatives is merely accidental. The kids are in a good place, and I want them to be there. Their neediness is just a fact, as is the neediness of the elderly relatives. As for the deontology of the elderly relatives - nothing is intentional. I think as the elderly decline and become vulnerable and more relant, that it is easy to forget how they helped you. It's easy to see how the elderly in homes are poorly regarded because there is not the family history or connection that maintains a proper respect. A symptom of their decline is that they become very different to how you remember them. Aspects of their characters pass because of their situation.

I miss times when my kids were younger. There were things we did then that we don't do now of course. Yet, each age has its compensations. The conversation is more adult - though this lessens my excuse to be silly. (It doesn't stop me though). I'm fortunate in that my kids are people I like and respect, and no doubt we'll look back on this episode when they were both at home and we could enjoy their company.

Life is ultimately bleak, with occaisional bleak times leading up to this fact. It's very easy to foget how incredibly lucky we are on the whole though. We don't have the sufferings of past generations. That's good we say - of course. The danger is that we become attached to a particular comfort, place, episode, person, people, practice - whatever, and when the time comes for them or us to pass, then our comfort and enjoyment then merely serves to heighten our sense of loss. This is a Buddhist view - to which I subscribe. It sounds bleak - and will be if we let it affect us that way. The aim is to enjoy, take part, fully engage in life - but to remain mindful of it's essential impermanence and not be fooled into/ develp a negative mindset of an attachment that then bites us. The acceptance that things will pass helps. Going with the flow helps. Being positive helps. Being mindful not to cause suffering, or rather too much suffering, helps.

Paul, I've read all you've written on this thread several times over several days. I've wanted to post here, but I'm not sure what to say or how to make it sound right.

I'm in this mid-life crisis, I think, because I'll never live to see 50. :lol: I was blind sided. It started about one year ago, when my mom (who isn't really classified as elderly) developed her heart condition. I, and my friend, do all of those things: shopping, cleaning, hospital, doctors, pharmacy, trips to the lab because she's on blood thinning medication. Her diet must be regulated because her vitamin K (in green vegetables) has to be consistent. She takes about 8 prescription pills, so she has the pill box with about 28 compartments that I put all of her pills in once a week, so hopefully she can remember to take them. In May she was in the hospital 3 times. This month she hasn't gone to the hospital, so fingers crossed, but the month isn't over yet.

My brother Mark's job is inflexible but he helps a bit with transportation, since I don't drive, but otherwise he can't deal with my mother. She is what the doctor's politely call, "a complicated lady." She lives some distance from me, and usually it's in the middle of the night when she has problems.

The most difficult part is trying to counsel her and help her with her symptoms. It's very difficult because I can't reason with her. And I work full-time, and trying to keep myself healthy is a full time job.

When it all started a year ago, I was very terrified that she'd die, and I still am quite a bit, but I think I've become somewhat numb. I thought that perhaps this could be an opportunity to mend our relationship, but that hasn't happened. She acts as though she absolutely despises me, no matter how much I try to help her. The only person she approves of, and in fact, fully adores, is my brother Mark.

Truly, the idea of her ending up in some kind of facility, where she would be poorly regarded, is very hard for me to bear, because she is my mother.

My psychologist tells me that we hear a lot about elder abuse, but there's another common form of abuse, which is caretaker abuse. Caretakers are often abused by the sick person (when they still have their mind and can be cruel) and by other family members. He tells me that I'm the opposite of most of his clients because he continually tries to get them to take more responsibility, but with me he continually tries to encourage me to take less responsibility.

I won't be signing up for children or a husband. I'm not signed up for dad (THANKFULLY dad abandoned me), but I sure got signed up for mom. I struggled to get independent of her, and she is now dependent on me.

"This too shall pass." I find this to be a very comforting thought every time I'm going through another of my mom's crises.

I don't fear my own passing, but I fear the others passing. Whatever happens with my mom, I dread it, because she isn't going to recover. There is so much grief and sorrow and pain and devastation and desolation surrounding this woman for me, that I don't know how I'll ever sort through it.

The passing that I don't know if I could cope with is my oldest brother's. He has very low depressions, but he always has a sense of humor. I tell him, "You're not going without me!" It's something that we get our biggest laughs about. When he comes to visit, we go out for breakfast and just laugh our heads off. He says things like, "I always save the last bullet in my gun for me." And I say, "Save two!" :lol: Several of our cousins have committed suicide, and my brother says, "I'm just surprised the body count hasn't been much higher!" :lol: I don't know why we have this morbid sense of humor, and all of these crazy conversations, but it's a lot of our fun in life.

I'm not sure how deontology fits in with this, whatever it is.

It's like you said Paul, "The episode I am in at the moment is the episode they don't tell you about."

It makes me think of Frank McCourt in 'Tis I think it was, when his mother Angela died, he heard what it would cost for her funeral expenses, he had the thought, "Why couldn't I just put her in a trash bag and set her out for the collection?" :lol:

[Paulclem]

Hi Vonny. Thanks for your kind words. I'm sorry to hear that things have been rough. Sometimes there's just no helping it. It does have positive side effects though. Things get put in a bit of perspective, and it does make you stronger in the end. Dealing with all the stuff means you end up being very able at dealing with stuff.

A few posts back I was on about relief and sorrow. It surprised me this combination. When people are nearing the end - and I hope yours stay ok for a good while - we think of the sorrow. It's all we can think about. But there behind is also relief with the realisation that each's life can't be sustained indefinately. It has to happen. I think you know what I mean when I say your get the realisation. "All things pass" is what we often dread, but it is also a relief.

[V.Jayalakshmi]

To Jack Of Hearts

I am from South Asia.So perhaps my views on the precept "All Things Must Pass", is colored by my views again colored by my exposure to western and eastern philosophies. I say 'All Things Will Pass" with conviction when I am not saddled by disabling phisical incapacities.( Like old age, sickness etc).All things are bound to pass too if one watches time mutely.I examine the fear behind the precept itself.Why that doubt?When we are in "Today" with our pain or debilities and look at time we feel the fear and "all things must pass" is just absolute wisdom offered by those who have gone past them."All things will Pass" is the consolation by those who endured in in present continuous time."All things sometimes never pass is said by people like me who endured the sorrow of death of loved ones.So existence in time is nothing but sorrow and the earlier one realizes it the more the consolation and one ceases to wonder"Will it pass"?

[Paulclem]

"All things sometimes never pass is said by people like me who endured the sorrow of death of loved ones.So existence in time is nothing but sorrow and the earlier one realizes it the more the consolation and one ceases to wonder"Will it pass"?

I hope you don't mind me responding Jay.

In my earlier post I should have said that I was referring to the wider family rather than close family - which is where I presume your statement originates. I appreciate your addition.

[jajdude]

Good words V. J.

Are you from India?

Jiddhu Krishnamurti is my hero.