Why do many women find 'the male body' ugly?

[SleepyWitch]

I'm confused. I read this article on Psychology Today about sex scandals etc. and it said the reason so many men have affairs or do other silly things (such as exposing themselves etc) is that many women find the male body ugly.
It didn't go into the details really, but it seemed to say that the reason they
go off the rails is not because they are sex-crazy perverts but because they want attention or affection or something.
I have observed that lots of women never cuddle or compliment their bf/ husband. Also my ex-boyfriends and my husband told me that their ex-girlfriends never cuddled them or told them they are cute etc.
I don't get it. I mean I know that lots of women are still regrettably old-fashioned and take on a passive role when it comes to actual sexual intercourse, because they don't want to be appear slutty etc. But what's wrong with cuddling? Also, in my experience it is those women who say they are attracted to athletic, masculine guys who then go on to NOT cuddle or caress such a guy once they've got hold of one. :confused5:
Personally, I prefer geeky soft guys and I would feel threatened by an overly masculine guy with lots of muscles and would probably not feel invited to cuddle such a guy. But seeing as those girls say that they fancy this kind of man, what's their problem?
I know this is an all-age forum, so lets try to keep the discussion clean and focus on cuddling etc. and the psychology behind all this, not on sex.

[Emil Miller]

I'm confused. I read this article on psychology today about sex scandals etc. and it said the reason so many men have affairs or do other silly things (such as exposing themselves etc) is that many women find the male body ugly.
It didn't go into the details really, but it seemed to say that the reason they
go off the rails is not because they are sex-crazy perverts but because they want attention or affection or something.
I have observed that lots of women never cuddle or compliment their bf/ husband. Also my ex-boyfriends and my husband told me that their ex-girlfriends never cuddled them or told them they are cute etc.
I don't get it. I mean I know that lots of women are still regrettably old-fashioned and take on a passive role when it comes to actual sexual intercourse, because they don't want to be appear slutty etc. But what's wrong with cuddling? Also, in my experience it is those women who say they are attracted to athletic, masculine guys who then go on to NOT cuddle or caress such a guy once they've got hold of one. :confused5:
Personally, I prefer geeky soft guys and I would feel threatened by an overly masculine guy with lots of muscles and would probably not feel invited to cuddle such a guy. But seeing as those girls say that they fancy this kind of man, what's their problem?
I know this is an all-age forum, so lets try to keep the discussion clean and focus on cuddling etc. and the psychology behind all this, not on sex.

This has the potential to be the funniest thread ever launched on the forum,
I would comment further but I'm literally speechless. The mind boggles at the forthcoming replies, of which I shall be an attentive observer.

[SleepyWitch]

Hum, I fail to see the humour. But then, I'm German.

[papayahed]

I'm confused. I read this article on psychology today about sex scandals etc. and it said the reason so many men have affairs or do other silly things (such as exposing themselves etc) is that many women find the male body ugly. It didn't go into the details really

I'd love to hear the details. Was there some kind of poll?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hum, I fail to see the humour. But then, I'm German.

:lol: Is that a joke? There's a paradox!

As for the subject, I wouldn't know what to say.

[SleepyWitch]

I'd love to hear the details. Was there some kind of poll?
Nope the article was rather vague and not very long. The bit about cuddling etc. is my contribution, the article focuses more on sexual desire as such. I wasn't sure whether to post it, because it refers to scandals involving politicians, but as I said, I'm interested int he psychology behind it, not current politics etc.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/loose-girl/201106/are-mens-bodies-hot-or-not-some-thoughts-weinergate

edit to add: ok, it doesn't actually say that women find men ugly, just that many guys have never been told that they are 'hot'.

[Vonny]

Personally, I prefer geeky soft guys

Ackkk, I'm staying away from this thread -- dangerous territory!! :lol:

[DocHeart]

I'm confused. I read this article on Psychology Today about sex scandals etc. and it said the reason so many men have affairs or do other silly things (such as exposing themselves etc) is that many women find the male body ugly.
It didn't go into the details really, but it seemed to say that the reason they
go off the rails is not because they are sex-crazy perverts but because they want attention or affection or something.
I have observed that lots of women never cuddle or compliment their bf/ husband. Also my ex-boyfriends and my husband told me that their ex-girlfriends never cuddled them or told them they are cute etc.
I don't get it. I mean I know that lots of women are still regrettably old-fashioned and take on a passive role when it comes to actual sexual intercourse, because they don't want to be appear slutty etc. But what's wrong with cuddling? Also, in my experience it is those women who say they are attracted to athletic, masculine guys who then go on to NOT cuddle or caress such a guy once they've got hold of one. :confused5:
Personally, I prefer geeky soft guys and I would feel threatened by an overly masculine guy with lots of muscles and would probably not feel invited to cuddle such a guy. But seeing as those girls say that they fancy this kind of man, what's their problem?
I know this is an all-age forum, so lets try to keep the discussion clean and focus on cuddling etc. and the psychology behind all this, not on sex.


Will you marry me?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, what are women's feelings on the body of a man? Generally positive, no? It seems like many women practically slide off their chair when they see a shirtless Matthew McConaughey. The usual area of contention seems to be what women think of seeing a man's penis. Some women seem to like seeing a dude's junk, and others seem not to want to at all.

As to the cuddling thing, since when? I thought it was usually the guy who doesn't want to cuddle. isn't this the stereotype?

[JuniperWoolf]

Hmm, I've never heard this before. As a female, I spend quite a bit of my time admiring the male body. :blush5: I think I'd question the validity of the article.

Although, for the record, I do hate cuddling. It's just boring.

[OrphanPip]

I get the aversion to penises though. I don't mind touching them, but I wouldn't want pictures of them hanging on my walls :p.

[_Shannon_]

I dunno..I am all about the totality of a person, bodies are just vehicles for the beauty of a whole person.

In my experience men are much less tactile and much more visual in their appreciation of the female body, and women are much more tactile and less visual in their appreciation. I dunno, it's also my experience that most men are lazy lovers, and do the minimum to arouse their partners....so it's hard to be all "Dude! You rock my face off in bed!", when they in fact, do not.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

From Seinfeld:

Jerry: Well, I was walking around naked in front of Melissa the other day--

Elaine: Whoa! Walking around naked? Ahh... that is not a good look for a man.

George: Why not? It's a good look for a woman.

Elaine: Well, the female body is a... work of art. The male body is utilitarian, it's for gettin' around, like a jeep.

Jerry: So you don't think it's attractive?

Elaine: It's hideous. The hair, the... the lumpiness. It's simian.

George: Well, some women like it.

Elaine: Mmm. Sickies.

:lol:

[JuniperWoolf]

lol That's what this thread reminded me of too.

[Vonny]

:lol: Is that a joke? There's a paradox!

As for the subject, I wouldn't know what to say.

Oh Neely, there you are turning up again!

I don't know what to say either, regarding one of the cutest guys on LitNet, other than I will never understand women!! I mean, I see what they do, but I'll never understand them!

[Emil Miller]

Oh Neely, there you are turning up again!

I don't know what to say either, regarding the second cutest guy on LitNet, other than I will never understand women!! I mean, I see what they do, but I'll never understand them!

There you go Neely, I'll bet you didn't know you were the second cutest guy on LitNet. Don't let Mrs Neely know.

[Vonny]

There you go Neely, I'll bet you didn't know you were the second cutest guy on LitNet. Don't let Mrs Neely know.

Darn, I edited my post but you got in here two minutes before I finished it. I meant to say he's one of the cutest. We don't want Mrs. Neely to get upset!

[Emil Miller]

Darn, I edited my post but you got in here two minutes before I finished it. I meant to say he's one of the cutest. We don't want Mrs. Neely to get upset!

Vonny, you're priceless and a wonderful addition to the forum. I'm not being patronising, I really mean it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

:lol: I'm glad that my overwhelming attractiveness is appreciated - Mrs Neely takes it all for granted.

[XQZ]

I think that it's the eyes: humans have evolved into a species beyond animal. Pheromones are still important but we are more visually dependent, and therefore, added to the big brain, critical of each other.
If a woman sees a man with shirt off toiling sweatily on a building site she may think nice, but wouldn't really want to hug a tractor. Conversely if a man saw a woman in the same circumstances he may think nice but it might be time to get a tougher tractor. And this also applies to how a woman would feel if that same tractor was hanging around the house all day, even though it may help with the dusting and vacuuming the woman would think 'your on my turf and getting under my feet, go and mow the lawn'.
As a hetero I'd say that the vagina has it's moments but only if it belongs to someone I like, but I wouldn't want a picture of one on the wall. I imagine a woman feels the same about a willy.
But psychologically, women are more likeable. And blokes who think that women who don't like them because of the extroversion/introversion difference who flip out and want everyone to look at their willy are probably closer to short-sighted senility than on the verge of a breakthrough in astrophysics.
I've met drunk women who wanted to show everyone their box. A loosening of the inhibitions thing I guess, but never one who wanted to post a picture of it on the net.
Having said that the net's a big place and perhaps I just haven't stumbled across the specific sites where that sort of thing goes on (where it's done for fun, not money).
I know that women are attracted to men whom they like what they do, and I know that there are alpha-males who are so overbearing they want their mates to do absolutely nothing except for what needs to be done, but there are rugby players who are more balanced than some in so-called exclusive professions (and of course the opposite).

So show a picture of a man mowing, a woman would probably be more drawn to that than to just a naked body part.

[JuniperWoolf]

...Tractor?


So show a picture of a man mowing, a woman would probably be more drawn to that than to just a naked body part.

As a chick, all I can say is "nope." What's supposed to be attractive about someone mowing a lawn?

[LitNetIsGreat]

...Box?


...Tractor?

As a chick, all I can say is "nope." What's supposed to be attractive about someone mowing a lawn?

It depends upon the mower used.

[Vonny]

Vonny, you're priceless and a wonderful addition to the forum. I'm not being patronising, I really mean it.

Emil, this more than qualifies you for the third and final place in my ranking system, especially now that my fellow psychiatric patient, Musicology, is out of contention for the slot!!

And now I really should take a break from here for a few days; I've done at least a week's worth of damage in one day!

[Emil Miller]

As a hetero I'd say that the vagina has it's moments but only if it belongs to someone I like, but I wouldn't want a picture of one on the wall. I imagine a woman feels the same about a willy.

:lol:



Emil, this more than qualifies you for the third and final place in my ranking system, especially now that my fellow psychiatric patient, Musicology, is out of contention for the slot!!

Hmmm...

[G L Wilson]

Lesbians think the male body is ugly, and not many women are lesbians.

[blazeofglory]

Ugliness is in your eyes and it is your prejudices and manias that can see the ugly part and cannot see the beauty of them. Everyone is a rose in different colors. Your disillusioned mind fails to see the beauty of the thing. Not that there is no beauty in the thing. Your clouded sight could not visualize it

[Emil Miller]

I agree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2672/24889052461be1b2dee1.jpg

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Ugliness is in your eyes and it is your prejudices and manias that can see the ugly part and cannot see the beauty of them. Everyone is a rose in different colors. Your disillusioned mind fails to see the beauty of the thing. Not that there is no beauty in the thing. Your clouded sight could not visualize it
To whom is this targeted?


As a hetero I'd say that the vagina has it's moments but only if it belongs to someone I like, but I wouldn't want a picture of one on the wall. I imagine a woman feels the same about a willy.
So, a guy, let's call him Jim, wakes up one day and goes downstairs to eat breakfast, and when he comes upon his wife, she exclaims, "Oh my! Honey, are you feeling alright?"

"I feel great! Why?" he asks.

"You look absolutely horrible!" she tells him.

"Well, that's weird, because I feel wonderful."

Before he goes to work he decides to stop in at Starbucks and get some coffee, and when walking up to the counter, the clerk exclaims, "Oh my God! Are you feeling okay, buddy?"

"I feel great," Jim replies, perplexed.

"Okay. You just look really bad, is all," says the clerk.

When Jim gets to work, his receptionist, upon seeing him, gives a small cry and runs over to him and exclaims, "Jim, are you okay? Should I call a doctor?"

"I feel great, but I think I will see a doctor, because this is getting ridiculous."

So, when he gets to the doctor, he explains his problem after the doctor repeats what others have said. "I don't get it, doc, I feel really good, but look horrible. What's the matter with me."

"Well," says the doctor, "let's take a look." The doctor then pulls out a big book and starts flipping through it. "Let's see ... looks good, feels good; no ... looks bad, feels bad; no ... Ah! Here it is: Looks bad, feels good ... Well, according to this, you're a vagina."

[Lokasenna]

Hmm...

I'm hardly qualified to comment on the inner workings of the female mind, but I do remember a large group of my female friends (or should I say 'coven'?) literally salivating over the body of the hunky one from Twilight. Despite their intelligence, they were determined to see the films for that reason alone.

Actually, we had quite a fun debate about it... Is it objectifying if women do it?

[JBI]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who automatically jumped to Seinfeld.

[SleepyWitch]

Hmm...

I'm hardly qualified to comment on the inner workings of the female mind, but I do remember a large group of my female friends (or should I say 'coven'?) literally salivating over the body of the hunky one from Twilight. Despite their intelligence, they were determined to see the films for that reason alone.

Actually, we had quite a fun debate about it... Is it objectifying if women do it?

hum.. the thing is I know at least one girl who will sallivate about hunky guys but then if she "catches" one of them, she'd neither tell him that he's sexy or somesuch nor would she show affection in any 'physical' way. I was just wondering how widespread that is.

[papayahed]

hum.. the thing is I know at least one girl who will sallivate about hunky guys but then if she "catches" one of them, she'd neither tell him that he's sexy or somesuch nor would she show affection in any 'physical' way. I was just wondering how widespread that is.

I know one girl like that, maybe. I know she doesn't show affection in public I can't say what happens when they are alone but she is by far in the minority of all women I know in terms of showing affection.

[Vonny]

My oldest brother has gotten me into the habit of turning things around, putting the man in the woman's role, and visa versa. I hadn't fully turned this idea around before.

The "Do you know how it feels to be looked at?" thread had me thinking. I know that I hate men staring at me. It scares me, honestly. I remember the first time it happened to me when I was about 13, standing in a bank with my mother. I'm short, so if they are close to me, they are really looking down at me, and the way they stare and stare - often they don't even do it discreetly. Eww, it gives me the creeps.

Some women do the same thing to me, (and not lesbian women.) Several women I work with do this (though mostly I work alone, thankfully.) There are a couple of women who say to me, "You're so skinny. I hate you." I've heard 2 or 3 of these women before saying about me, "Don't you hate her?" And they really do hate me! I'm thinking, "You hate me because I've been too nervous to eat all of my life, and I probably have osteoporosis?" In the last few years I manage to stay within the "normal" weight range, but it isn't easy for me to eat at work with people hating me and doing passive/aggressive things to me.

I don't go to run, or things like that, without one of my brothers.

Anyway, I'm sure that anyone can have his/her own personal insecurities, or feel reduced or grossed out from being stared at.

Of course, if it's Leonardo DiCaprio, he better get used to it or change careers.

Well, I guess this has more to do with being made an object than with touching.

[Buh4Bee]

Leave it to Elaine, she'll put you right!

[Vonny]

hum.. the thing is I know at least one girl who will sallivate about hunky guys but then if she "catches" one of them, she'd neither tell him that he's sexy or somesuch nor would she show affection in any 'physical' way. I was just wondering how widespread that is.

Well, I think this is widespread! As I've said, I don't understand it. I don't want to catch one at all, for my personal reasons, or not at this time, not for 5 or 10 years. But I actually know it would be great with the right one. (Oh jeez, as I write this I'm thinking, I hope I never get recognized on here.) I honestly feel that I couldn't get enough of all of that!! Oh Lord, I know how that sounds here. PLEASE no one reply!

I also wonder about all of these women who want to be mothers, but don't like to cuddle. And I feel sorry for their pets, as well.

[Emil Miller]

What do women do when they meet a geeky hunk?


http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3738/scan0001mi.jpg

[Vonny]

Ewww, Emil, I guess I should first ask if that's you before I reply that I lose my appetite completely!!! :lol:

[Emil Miller]

Ewww, Emil, I guess I should first ask if that's you before I reply that I lose my appetite completely!!! :lol:

Afraid not Vonny, I'm neither hunky nor geeky so I lose out on both counts.

[Bluehound]

I am bi and enjoy looking at both the male and female form. But I would have to admit that generally a sexy woman is more appealing to look at than a sexy man.
I don’t like tonnes of muscles particularly and I don’t like hairy men, so maybe I am just fussier about what men I like to look at. Most women in the right lighting/angle/pose can look good naked.
A lot of sexy is just confidence, for men or women I think.

It’s possibly just a matter of conditioning, we except that women are sex objects in a rather serious way but not so much with men. It’s more of a joke. Most men would probly feel awkward posing even for their partner to admire them (the way a woman will when emerging from the bathroom for example) and in turn it is not “traditional” for us to comment on their appearance, the way they do with us. We are more inclined to praise their actions.

I love to see my guy naked, especially from behind as I love his bum, I can’t stop myself from giving him and it a squeeze. But I wouldn’t automatically say something complimentary; I will make a point of doing so today.

For the record I tend to go for fully clothed nerdy types over muscle men too, give me
The Doctor http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/
or
Sherlock http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Cumberbatch
Anytime !

[Lokasenna]

What do women do when they meet a geeky hunk?


http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3738/scan0001mi.jpg

That is quite possibly the most horrific thing I have ever seen in my life. And I've seen Welsh folkdancing...

[LitNetIsGreat]

:lol: This thread is turning out to be one of the treats of the week. Hell of all time. Brilliant!

Incidentally, I discretely asked Mrs N what she thought of the male form (a conversation I will not repeat:smilewinkgrin:) thinking that she would dismiss the OP's thoughts perhaps, but in turn she fully agreed with it.

I will conduct more anecdotal research tomorrow with random women at work - hell I need some sort of reason to get up in the morning. I will report my findings. (I don't quite know how I will slip "junks" into conversation as yet but I'll manage it somehow.)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Just be classy about it, Neely. Just walk up to a woman and ask, "Do you like lookin' at dudes' dicks?" Women like directness!

[Vonny]

I am bi and enjoy looking at both the male and female form. But I would have to admit that generally a sexy woman is more appealing to look at than a sexy man.
I don’t like tonnes of muscles particularly and I don’t like hairy men, so maybe I am just fussier about what men I like to look at. Most women in the right lighting/angle/pose can look good naked.
A lot of sexy is just confidence, for men or women I think.

It’s possibly just a matter of conditioning, we except that women are sex objects in a rather serious way but not so much with men. It’s more of a joke. Most men would probly feel awkward posing even for their partner to admire them (the way a woman will when emerging from the bathroom for example) and in turn it is not “traditional” for us to comment on their appearance, the way they do with us. We are more inclined to praise their actions.

I love to see my guy naked, especially from behind as I love his bum, I can’t stop myself from giving him and it a squeeze. But I wouldn’t automatically say something complimentary; I will make a point of doing so today.

For the record I tend to go for fully clothed nerdy types over muscle men too, give me
The Doctor http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/
or
Sherlock http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Cumberbatch
Anytime !

I don't usually follow links, so I don't know what those are.

With my girlfriend, I like to sit and sort of gaze into her eyes. She has the most beautiful blue eyes I've ever seen. And I like to just look at her, and hug her, only her, not other women. And we often sleep in the same bed -- but it's not sexual. I'm sure I'm not bi. But for some reason, when it comes to men, I'm attracted to some characteristics, both in appearance and in personality, that may be considered somewhat feminine. However, it does have to be a complete man. I don't know what any of this is about! I don't like muscular men. That's a complete turnoff.

My brother is gay and has a partner, and they are in the closet. So when we go out, it's those two, and my girlfriend and I, and it looks as though we're two straight couples. That's not what it is, but we can blend in and not be picked on - either the guys by women or my girlfriend and I by men.

I find that I have a hard time not commenting, even with my girlfriend! I'm always saying, "I love your eyes!"

[OrphanPip]

Just be classy about it, Neely. Just walk up to a woman and ask, "Do you like lookin' at dudes' dicks?" Women like directness!

We wouldn't want Neely to be facing a sexual harassment lawsuit at work lol.

[Vonny]

I want to say up front that this is not about me, it's just an observation.

I know I should leave this alone, I should not go there, but it is incomprehensible to me how you could care for a man in that way - I don't mean a one night stand - but someone you love, and not want to look at him or touch him - to say, "I like him better with his clothes on." ? Or "I want it dark." ? Or "Keep a distance from me." ? Whatever they say, I don't know, but there has to be something in the drinking water that has affected people's brains! I would be saying, "You like baths, sounds good to me, how do you like showers?"

I might also wonder, "Does she love him or not?" But then, what's not to love?

It's definitely time for me to take a considerable break from the forum!!

[Bluehound]

I understand about not wanting to follow links..

“The Doctor” is the character from Doctor Who, played most recently by three very different, not traditionally good looking men; I find all of them sexy.
“Sherlock” is the modern up to date version of Sherlock Holmes played by the almost alien looking Benedict Cumberbatch, gorgeous.

In some ways my liking them ads to the argument that men tend to be sexier with their clothes on and it is what they say/do that makes them sexy , not as can be the case with women, just lying around semi clad - Kelly Brook you naughty angel you.

I think there may be a confusion happening between what women like to look at and how women feel about their actual partners. “Fantasy” men tend to be better clothes on, I would hope, like you Vonny, most women like to see and touch their real men in what ever state of dress/undress he’s in, I know I do.

As for taking a break from the forum, I hope you don’t, I for one enjoy your contributions :)

[LitNetIsGreat]

More women need to comment upon the subject of this thread as I have yet been unable to slip this into general chit chat.

Edit: apparently some women like PE teachers...

[Vonny]

I understand about not wanting to follow links..

“The Doctor” is the character from Doctor Who, played most recently by three very different, not traditionally good looking men; I find all of them sexy.
“Sherlock” is the modern up to date version of Sherlock Holmes played by the almost alien looking Benedict Cumberbatch, gorgeous.

In some ways my liking them ads to the argument that men tend to be sexier with their clothes on and it is what they say/do that makes them sexy , not as can be the case with women, just lying around semi clad - Kelly Brook you naughty angel you.

I think there may be a confusion happening between what women like to look at and how women feel about their actual partners. “Fantasy” men tend to be better clothes on, I would hope, like you Vonny, most women like to see and touch their real men in what ever state of dress/undress he’s in, I know I do.

As for taking a break from the forum, I hope you don’t, I for one enjoy your contributions :)

I had momentarily forgotten you Bluehound, a while back when I said I don't like women!

I agree completely. I'll take your word for the links. I don't watch tv or movies too much. When someone mentioned a Dr. Who exhibition before I had to Google it because I'd never heard of it.

I won't say much more, as I'm already nearly too embarrassed to return here.

Just want to make an adjustment to something I already blurted out - I don't like "feminine" men. That came out wrong. I just don't like men who are completely shut down on that side, and I like some unusual subtleties... I'm not sure if "feminine" is the word that describes it at all. I'm not attracted to gay men. (But this makes me think of something my gay brother says. It's men who fear they may have some tendencies themselves who want to kill gays. And those are the kind of men I don't like.) Also, I'm not sure why I said all of that about my girlfriend, just neither of us can sleep alone, really.

Secondly, regarding women being in a coven - that is what is known as "the great sisterhood." My brother put me on to "the great sisterhood" after watching many hours of television and movies with his wife, and then I began to notice it everywhere myself. The sisterhood alternates between crucifying men and talking about them in "objectifying" terms. I hadn't been able to put that word to it before. When I first saw the word "objectifying," I thought, "What is that?" But then I put it together. They see men more as objects than as people, and they do this with a group mentality. It appears that the women are bonding around this - but those same women subtly persecute each other, or at least they persecute some other woman.


One other thing: consider having the wife's drinking water analyzed.

[Emil Miller]

According to this advertisement, women much prefer hunky men.


http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/8774/879850502888510b.jpg

[LitNetIsGreat]

:lol: Well, I've already sent off for mine. I'm hoping it comes with those Tigar pants as well as they would make a good addition to the Neely wardrobe.

Vonny, I also love your posts, facinating honestly (no sarcasm). More please.

[Bluehound]

Ok, now the wonderful music of Rocky Horror is stuck in my head...might need to have a watch of it this weekend :)


"But a deltoid and a bicep, a hot groin and a tricep
Makes me shake, makes me wanna take Charles Atlas by the...hand.

In just seven days I can make you a maaaaan.

I don't want no dissension, just dynamic tension."

(Janet)" I'm a muscle fan."

:blush5:

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Why are you embarrased, Vonny? I've seen nothing that should warrant you being so. He'll, I've said many embarrasing things, but it's an anonymous forum and don't really care--I probably wouldn't care if they weren't anonymous, either, lol.

[Emil Miller]

:lol: Well, I've already sent off for mine. I'm hoping it comes with those Tigar pants as well as they would make a good addition to the Neely wardrobe.

Well of course, if you have had sand kicked in your face, something needs to be done about it, but if you look closely, you will note that the pants have no opening. Therefore, were you to be taken short, they could prove very problematical to a hero of the beach.

[Vonny]

Why are you embarrased, Vonny? I've seen nothing that should warrant you being so. He'll, I've said many embarrasing things, but it's an anonymous forum and don't really care--I probably wouldn't care if they weren't anonymous, either, lol.

Thank you Mutatis. I'm glad you think I've done alright. I've never said those things before, so it felt weird.

One other thought I had is, there seems to be an idea that women who don't want an extremely hunky man are interested in someone "non-threatening." That's not it for me, anyway. Those men are just not interesting.

I came here to this website and began looking around and became way, way too exuberant.

It's just that if you could see the kind of people of North Idaho, both men and women -- I live a rather isolated life, I suppose, mostly small town, except I work in little bit larger town. I really don't associate with anyone, other than my little circle. -- People here are very one-dimensional, very stuck in their Christian conservative ideology. The men drive big trucks and try to run you off the road. If it were to become known that my brother and his partner are gay, they would lose their jobs, and maybe worse.

The men are so concerned with being MEN, as they think God intended them to be. I won't describe the result. As I said, I avoid them.

Growing up, I lived most of the time very far out in the country. I didn't even go to school much.

All I normally do is work and do outdoor things, such as hiking or skiing. I don't go to bars, clubs, theaters, plays, concerts, parties, and rarely to restaurants. I don't even shop much, other than online. So when I come here and see and hear about clubs and concerts and formal parties, and people dressed up in all kinds of unusual costumes, I know nothing about it. So I guess I became fascinated by it.

For the most part, I haven't minded my isolated life. It suits me in many ways, and I haven't felt that I've really missed anything. I'm not lonely.

And so I don't know what happened when I came here and saw some very different people, not only in appearance, but in thinking -- and people that are real, not in a movie -- even in movies, (and I don't watch many), I haven't seen people like this. And I thought - "That's NEAT, that is so NEAT!!" ...and then I don't know what happened to my judgement - it just flew out the window.

Maybe the word "naive," or even ignorant, does fit me after all. And maybe that's why I've felt embarrassed. :lol:

[Bluehound]

I find it so difficult to understand why people are still judged (let alone persecuted) for their sexuality in this day and age.
Bad things still happen to LGBT people in the UK but generally it is becoming more excepted and in my town it is not unusual to see same sex couples holding hands and showing affection.
If I was your brother and his boyfriend I would tell them to stuff thier jobs and get on the next train out of there, but I guess life is not that simple. If it were we would all be happy as Larry .

Ooops , think we have gone a bit off topic...

mmm Leopard print Y-fronted speedos anyone :)

[Emil Miller]

Vonny,

It's easy to forget that the Internet is often misleading and gives a different picture to what is intended. Naturally, many people have done the social things you mention but they are the exception rather than the rule.
Most, if not all of us, lead a mundane existence in which we occasionally manage to do something more enjoyable or interesting. It's in the nature of things that if we have to earn our living, we are not free. The people on this forum generally have one thing in common and that's literature, but I'm sure their existence isn't markedly different from those on other forums and a number of them live in similar isolated regions to your own. Members may like to relieve the daily round with amusing chit chat and jokes but, despite the badinage, it's not difficult to discern a good deal of dissatisfaction among some of the contributors.
So you are not so different after all and if you like hiking and skiing, Idaho is a good place to be living.

[TurquoiseSunset]

Vonny,

It's easy to forget that the Internet is often misleading and gives a different picture to what is intended. Naturally, many people have done the social things you mention but they are the exception rather than the rule.
Most, if not all of us, lead a mundane existence in which we occasionally manage to do something more enjoyable or interesting. It's in the nature of things that if we have to earn our living, we are not free. The people on this forum generally have one thing in common and that's literature, but I'm sure their existence isn't markedly different from those on other forums and a number of them live in similar isolated regions to your own. Members may like to relieve the daily round with amusing chit chat and jokes but, despite the badinage, it's not difficult to discern a good deal of dissatisfaction among some of the contributors.
So you are not so different after all and if you like hiking and skiing, Idaho is a good place to be living.

I wish there was a 'like' button for this post :)

[LitNetIsGreat]

Come on more ladies please. I want to know more. :smash:

Surely the male form is a thing of beauty? Think of Michelangelo's David, Hollywood's Pitt or Sheffield's very own Litnet's hunk in tiger shorts... A male thing of beauty is a joy forever, etc, etc.

Despite several female persons saying that males are not as attractive as females, I dispel the myth. I fight for equality...

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Come on more ladies please. I want to know more. :smash:

Surely the male form is a thing of beauty? Think of Michelangelo's David, Hollywood's Pitt or Sheffield's very own Litnet's hunk in tiger shorts... A male thing of beauty is a joy forever, etc, etc.

Despite several female persons saying that males are not as attractive as females, I dispel the myth. I fight for equality...
I don't know, Neely, I think you're fighting a losing battle. I think if looked at as objectively as possible, a woman's body is just more aesthetically pleasing. It's curvy, elegant, soft, and doesn't have a conspicuous, wrinkly cucumber between its legs.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I don't know, Neely, I think you're fighting a losing battle. I think if looked at as objectively as possible, a woman's body is just more aesthetically pleasing. It's curvy, elegant, soft, and doesn't have a conspicuous, wrinkly cucumber between its legs.

:lol: Certainly, certainly.

I am more than pleased with women's bodies and I am not complaining one bit (:smilewinkgrin:) however I can't understand the "ugly" male vision from the female heterosexual point of view. I'm just confused. Cucumbers can be cool as well...

[stlukesguild]

Mr. Neely... methinks thou doth protest too much. A hitherto unknown feminine side... or at least a purely "artistic" admiration of the the male nude...?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/5838129564_3c76da82f1_z.jpg

I'll stick with the aesthetic superiority of the female form... even within the context of the purely "artistic":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSHZY_JCV0U

[Vonny]

I'm going to try not to personalize anything here.

There's something about the way that some of you write.

I had assumed all of my life that I simply wasn't very attracted to men. For a time I was with one, but I'm not sure why.

Brad Pitt has never done a thing for me. My brother likes him, but I don't get it. Now I realize that I don't like him because he's dull and stupid, and not very good looking either. And he's not natural.

And then I came here, and something descended on me.

I'm not a person who would go looking for anything. I wouldn't go near anything erotic and I'm sure it would be a turn off, so it's nothing to do with that.

But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting.

There's subtleties and nuances. Oh, and the humor that seems unintentional, the "(sorry girls)."

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

(I feel that I see Who the person really is. It's very strange, when it's the internet, and I know that I don't know the person. That is what is so disturbing about this, and I just realized it. I know these people better than I do people that I know. And the people I know, such as neighbors, I don't care to know.)

For a long time I was just going around reading bits here and there, not giving it much thought, other than being captivated, and then I realized there's a physical component to it.

I'm sure I'd never be attracted to just a body or body part. The personality has to come first... and I never saw a personality before.

But now I think a few males have it all over the females, in all departments. Women don't have this sexy thing.


Regarding my situation. We do love Idaho because at least here we can escape the people, some of the time. In San Francisco where everyone is holding hands, there are too many people, and I could never live in a big city. Climate change, though - The rain is killing us, and there's not much to do in the cold rain. The lakes are too high for boating, which I find satisfying actually, to know that the arrogant Big Boat people are missing a lot of their season.

And I do read and love literature -- The problem I have is a terrible stress condition, and when it flares up, I can't concentrate too well.

And No, I'm not trying to pick up on anyone here!

Hmm, I'm thinking that George Clooney, even though he's old, and I've seen him in only a couple of movies, has it much more than Brad Pitt or the younger ones. But even Clooney, I've never given much thought to. I agree with his opinions, though.

[stlukesguild]

But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting...

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.

[Vonny]

Thank you for the welcome Stluke!

I will carefully read all that you wrote there from Shakespeare. I would love to read and understand Shakespeare.

I understand what you're saying. I said somewhere on this thread that I'm naive. Actually, I'm not. It's funny because I am, and I'm not. I'm not easily manipulated, and I don't fall prey.

The people that I'm talking about above, I'm sure about. They are what they seem. I have a sense about these things. They wouldn't private message me. And if some other creepy person did that to me, it would only happen once.

The British aspect was only speculative, on my part. I really don't know about that. I only know that these kind of men aren't in Idaho.

Thank you for that, I appreciate it!

Now that I think about it more, I'm not naive. I just haven't experienced a "bohemian" lifestyle.

[Emil Miller]

Mr. Neely... methinks thou doth protest too much. A hitherto unknown feminine side... or at least a purely "artistic" admiration of the the male nude...?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/5838129564_3c76da82f1_z.jpg



Neely, is that you? I don't mean the one on the pedestal but the one wearing the glasses. Now if you carry on with the Charles Atlas course, you might well find women putting you on a pedestal but don't go around kicking sand in peoples' faces.

[Bluehound]

Men's bodies are not ugly and I don't believe most women think they are.
We are just not in the habit of saying out loud what we are thinking about men, in the same way that you would about a beautiful woman.
But look at the legs on that above me...and the statues not bad ;)

There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later.
There is nothing wrong with the body of "The thinker" but we don't notice it because we are looking at his brains...metaphorically at least :)

[LitNetIsGreat]

Mr. Neely... methinks thou doth protest too much. A hitherto unknown feminine side... or at least a purely "artistic" admiration of the the male nude...?

Ha, ha. I hope you are not questioning my large hetrosexual prowess?:smilewinkgrin:


Neely, is that you? I don't mean the one on the pedestal but the one wearing the glasses. Now if you carry on with the Charles Atlas course, you might well find women putting you on a pedestal but don't go around kicking sand in peoples' faces.

I think you were closer with your first thought, though I've never been put on a pedestal to my knowledge. I'm still waiting for the tiger pants but at least I've got my cycling shorts and Mrs Neely loves to hate those. I once joined her for ten minutes wearing them in a children's play group and you could see the colour drip from her face - she thought I was going to get arrested.


There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later.

I'm not sure what you mean about that. Up student street there are loads and loads of really good looking smart young women, so many in fact that I have often wondered if intelligence and good looks come together.

[Paulclem]

Neely - were the shorts the ones with the padded backside that look like they've been well filled with something horrible?

[stlukesguild]

From Neely's description of the color draining from Mrs. Neely's face and her fear of police action I got the impression rather that they were padded on the front side. :blush2::smilewinkgrin:

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ha, yes they are the ones padded on the backside and extremely tight on the front.

[Emil Miller]

Ha, yes they are the ones padded on the backside and extremely tight on the front.

I'm beginning to warm to the Original Post's premise, especially in the light of something like this.


http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4240/babesonbicycles21.jpg

[Vonny]

I'm not sure what's been going on with me lately! I'm normally a reserved person. ...But I've had had dissociation for most of my life. It was chronic and extreme when I was a child; then I thought I'd mostly overcome it as an adult, but now I'm seeing recurrences.

I think that I now sometimes slip into a slightly altered consciousness. When I'm writing here, I do always know what I'm doing, but it's as though some part of me is absent or altered. Then later, for a while, I understand better what I did, and I find it very uncomfortable, or mortifying, to go back and read what I wrote, so mostly I haven't returned to it much. Then after a few minutes or hours, my behavior has repeated.

I mean, not everything I've written on the forum fits this category, just some.

Stluke, what you did startled me back into my senses.

(No reply necessary.)

Oh my gosh, Emil, and I thought I'm off topic! Just saw that after making this post.


But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting...

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.


My oldest brother's name is David. He's a critical thinker. He's a good writer, but being an engineer he writes technically.

[Bluehound]

"There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later." -me

"I'm not sure what you mean about that. Up student street there are loads and loads of really good looking smart young women, so many in fact that I have often wondered if intelligence and good looks come together." - Neely

I didn't say you cant be smart and pretty, just that people tend to expect you to be one or the other Clark Kent/Superman ?

Hehe and we are talking about good looking women again !
As well as looking at one on a bike, wow she is a hotty.

Can anyone find pics of nearly naked men who are considered intelligent ?

[Emil Miller]

"There is another angle to this, people find it hard to accept someone who is both beautiful and smart.
Maybe men choose to only be seen as the later." -me

"I'm not sure what you mean about that. Up student street there are loads and loads of really good looking smart young women, so many in fact that I have often wondered if intelligence and good looks come together." - Neely

I didn't say you cant be smart and pretty, just that people tend to expect you to be one or the other Clark Kent/Superman ?

Hehe and we are talking about good looking women again !
As well as looking at one on a bike, wow she is a hotty.

Can anyone find pics of nearly naked men who are considered intelligent ?


He doestn't strike me as looking particularly intelligent but how about this one?

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8319/oucht.jpg

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hehe and we are talking about good looking women again !

It is one of our favourite subjects here on Litnet.

I love the photo of the lady on the bike (not sure about the chap?) but as a man of experience that G-string she is wearing is not suitable clothing from long distance rides. Paul will back me up on that one.

[Vonny]

But what I found here, mostly, is the writing - the way it's unselfconscious and spontaneous, very smooth - and then it's always changing, so that I'm wondering what is that person? Once in a while it seems like a child, but too intelligent and sophisticated to be a child. Other times I know it's a man. At the same time there's a common thread that runs through it. And then wow, is it smart. It's interesting...

I think also it's a British thing that I'm picking up.

I'm sure I'd have never gotten this affect from anything published and edited and prepared. It's because it's extemporaneous. Is that the right word? It's just coming out.

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.


I saw someone here who said, "I had gone too long without my Shakespeare, so tonight I read MacBeth and now I'm whole again!" I had the thought that it must be more effective than anti-psychotic medications. I think it's a great thing to be raised on Shakespeare.

That same poster also enjoyed Frankenstein. I've always had a fondness for Frankenstein, but I've never read the book. I think I can grasp that one at this time, and I have a copy of it somewhere.

It's interesting that Frankenstein's monster always comes to my mind now whenever my mother is in the hospital. She does get good care in our hospital - they do sustain her. I'm just glad that my ex-sister-in-law, who is a nurse, is in Oregon, especially if I ever have to go to the hospital.

(just rambling... no reply necessary)

[stlukesguild]

He doestn't strike me as looking particularly intelligent but how about this one?

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8319/oucht.jpg

Now Brian... which one of us is bringing down the aesthetic quality of the discussion this time? :smilewinkgrin:

[Emil Miller]

It is one of our favourite subjects here on Litnet.

I love the photo of the lady on the bike (not sure about the chap?) but as a man of experience that G-string she is wearing is not suitable clothing from long distance rides. Paul will back me up on that one.

What makes you think she was going anywhere? She probably got off the machine and got dressed as soon as the photo was taken. Now these are real cyclists.

{edit}



Now Brian... which one of us is bringing down the aesthetic quality of the discussion this time? :smilewinkgrin:

Sorry Stlukes, I couldn't find a statue of Greek sculptured Adonis riding a bicycle.

[Paulclem]

It is one of our favourite subjects here on Litnet.

I love the photo of the lady on the bike (not sure about the chap?) but as a man of experience that G-string she is wearing is not suitable clothing from long distance rides. Paul will back me up on that one.

Oh yes... the chafing.

As for the male body, I have heard a strangled turkey referred to as good descriptions of certain parts. I wouldn't like to comment though.

[Emil Miller]

What makes you think she was going anywhere? She probably got off the machine and got dressed as soon as the photo was taken. Now these are real cyclists.

{edit}.
Sorry about that Neely, but my original picture of topless young ladies was too much for the moderators. So I have decided to play it safe instead and show an alternative version of a real female cyclist.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4418/baselineo.jpg

[LitNetIsGreat]

Sorry about that Neely, but my original picture of topless young ladies was too much for the moderators. So I have decided to play it safe instead and show an alternative version of a real female cyclist.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4418/baselineo.jpg

Damn I missed out on that one, but I like this one anyway - nice hat!

[Vonny]

I'm beginning to warm to the Original Post's premise, especially in the light of something like this.


http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4240/babesonbicycles21.jpg


From the female perspective, I will comment that my girl friend is more attractive than this, especially her eyes. She doesn't have the "come-hither" look, but she doesn't need it to out-distance this one, even without a bike.

This girl doesn't look very clean to me. I can be paranoid at times, but she looks as if she could even have a disease.

As I think about it further, she also looks cheap.

She looks like a million others too - very generic.

[stlukesguild]

You speak of "cheap" and "dirty" as if these were negatives.

"Cheap" and "dirty" can be quite attractive at times.

:smilewinkgrin::smash:

[Vonny]

You speak of "cheap" and "dirty" as if these were negatives.

"Cheap" and "dirty" can be quite attractive at times.

:smilewinkgrin::smash:



oh my god. I have had some shocks in my life....

The mods may remove these posts, but I really wish they wouldn't because it would deny my experience, and as a person with a form of mental illness I don't need my experience denied. And I would really like to understand, why would you say this to me? Aren't you a school teacher?

I was saying that that was my perspective of that picture. To me it is cheap, dirty, diseased and generic - and not attractive.

Emil calls himself "Retired Degenerate" and Neely says, "What would Woody do?" At least they don't pretend to be something they're not. But you call yourself St Luke. Emil and Neely haven't said anything awful like this directly to me.

[Jack of Hearts]

Vonny... be aware that art is an illusion... and writing... even if it only be on an internet forum... is a form of art. It is dangerous to assume that the fluidity... the mastery of language... the ease and the apparent "naturalism" paint a true portrait of the individual behind the words. Certainly, many of us here are quite likely far less witty and skillful with the spoken word than with the written word. The written word affords one the time to think and make choices. There is the old cliche that one should write as one speaks (or thinks), but do we really want writing laden with "ummms" and "hmmms" and "uhhhhs"? One of the values of literature is that it teaches the individual the power of words... the manner in which words can influence our thinking... or even manipulate us.

I remember immediately being struck by the power of words to manipulate while reading Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Caesar has been murdered and Brutus comes before the massed crowds to argue his case:

Romans, countrymen, and lovers! hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear: believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe: censure me in your wisdom, and
awake your senses, that you may the better judge.
If there be any in this assembly, any dear friend of
Caesar's, to him I say, that Brutus' love to Caesar
was no less than his. If then that friend demand
why Brutus rose against Caesar, this is my answer:
--Not that I loved Caesar less, but that I loved
Rome more. Had you rather Caesar were living and
die all slaves, than that Caesar were dead, to live
all free men? As Caesar loved me, I weep for him;
as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was
valiant, I honour him: but, as he was ambitious, I
slew him. There is tears for his love; joy for his
fortune; honour for his valour; and death for his
ambition. Who is here so base that would be a
bondman? If any, speak; for him have I offended.
Who is here so rude that would not be a Roman? If
any, speak; for him have I offended. Who is here so
vile that will not love his country? If any, speak;
for him have I offended. I pause for a reply.

There is an awkwardness to his introduction... and to his use of repetition:

hear me for my
cause, and be silent, that you may hear:

believe me
for mine honour, and have respect to mine honour, that
you may believe:

The words don't flow fluidly... but they do draw attention to what comes across as Brutus pleading that you hear and believe that he is honorable...

And then Mark Antony steps before the crowd... and such a speech:

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--
Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

How much more poetic that invitation to listen: "Friends, Romans, Countrymen; Lend me your ears..."

And then notice how Shakespeare allows Antony to completely undermine Brutus' pleas that the citizens recognize that he was only acting honorably:

"But Brutus is an honorable man"...

repeated again and again... in a clearly sarcastic tone.

The point? I am merely suggesting that it is always dangerous to confuse the artist with the art... even if the art... in this case... is but a bit of verbal repartee... dialog... or discussion on a literature site. I don't say this to scare you away. I doubt there are any stalkers at Lit Net... and the occasional "trolls" seem few and far between. Like you, I do recognize there are any number of posters who who are quite intelligent and talented with the written word. Some are seemingly fluid and natural. But remember Alexander Pope's lines from his An Essay on Criticism:

True Ease in Writing comes from Art, not Chance,
As those move easiest who have learn'd to dance.

Fluidity with words and language comes from a degree of experience and effort. I, myself, am first and foremost a visual artist... a painter. Whatever ability I have as a painter was developed primarily as the result of painting. Those who have a skill with the written word have quite likely developed this through the repeated process of reading and writing.

Much as I like British literature and the English sense of humor, I don't think you can wholly attribute whatever mastery with words that you sense here to something British. A good many of the best writers here are not British, but American, Canadian, Australian... or even of a culture where English was not their first language.

Anyway... a belated welcome to LitNet.

Do you know how much crap this reader had to shift through to find this? Pretty sure there was a half naked, obese man riding a small bicycle in there somewhere.

Could read art theory/philosophy all day. Anything to avoid actually making something.





J

EDIT: Seriously, you could barely see the bicycle. C'mon.

[prendrelemick]

The woman on the bike is astonishingly beautiful, her state of undress and her pose is an invitation to look and admire. she puts me in mind of a radio programme I heard a while ago.

it was a discussion on pornography. There were a couple of feminists, a model, and a Bishop. (sounds like a set up line for a joke). It all got very heated, the model insisted she was using her body to exploit men, the feminists kept insisting that pornography was rape, and on and on. Then the Bishop said something I've remembered ever since. He said " To the average male, the naked female body is the most breathtakingly beautiful work of art he has ever seen ."

That I think is the difference that this thread is concerned with, I don't think women have the same kick-in-the-stomach reaction to the male body.

[Arrowni]

This sounds to me as an entirely biological subject. The biological role of male hominids seem to really play the idea of seducing in two different levels from one sex to another, men tend to make up for their uglyness by taking the initiative, amassing power and richness -stability, protection-, and doing a sort of intelectual pornography -trying to show off their skills-. Dog societies are a lot like this too, despite the lack of our knowledge about dog esthetics.

[SleepyWitch]

That I think is the difference that this thread is concerned with, I don't think women have the same kick-in-the-stomach reaction to the male body.

Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

I would have thought that it would have something to do with the reproductive capacities of men and women. Women have to be much more selective because they can only produce one child per year, whereas men obviously have an unlimited capacity, virtually.

[Arrowni]

I would have thought that it would have something to do with the reproductive capacities of men and women. Women have to be much more selective because they can only produce one child per year, whereas men obviously have an unlimited capacity, virtually.


Do you really thing women are really more selective in such system? I would say their adaptation to be prettier would lean towards they wanting to be selected.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Do you really thing women are really more selective in such system? I would say their adaptation to be prettier would lean towards they wanting to be selected.

Well yes, biologically speaking, women are of course still in competition and want to attract the very best prospect but it is that - one individual, because of their limitations in reproduction. Men on the other hand do not have such limitations.

[prendrelemick]

Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?


I would have thought that it would have something to do with the reproductive capacities of men and women. Women have to be much more selective because they can only produce one child per year, whereas men obviously have an unlimited capacity, virtually.


Do you really thing women are really more selective in such system? I would say their adaptation to be prettier would lean towards they wanting to be selected.


I think evolution is important, and Neely could be right. The male urge to spread his seed far and wide may mean an emotional attachment to a particular person is less important and even a hinderence.

Arrowni: In evolutionary terms i think women want to attract the best male they can, and keep him providing for her while the babies are growing up.

Back to the girl on the bike, I find it difficult to separate the esthetic from the sexual. Is this a male thing?

[Emil Miller]

Back to the girl on the bike, I find it difficult to separate the esthetic from the sexual. Is this a male thing?


Well all things are relative.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5826/fatwomenbbwsingles.jpg

[Bluehound]

Yes it is, there will be men (and women) who see these larger ladies and think phwwooar !
They probly also think the girl on the bike is a little too skinny...
Everyone is different in what they like to look at and what turns them on.

I think the points being made about evolution and mating may be the key though, it would be important for the male to be instantly attracted to a mate (ie on sight)so he could maximize his seed spreading , where as it would be important for a female to take a bit more time to choose her mate (ie observe if he would be a good provider first) - we females may even be programmed not to find men instantly visually attractive.

But that is not the same as saying we find your bodies ugly.

[Emil Miller]

- we females may even be programmed not to find men instantly visually attractive.


This would explain why gorgeous females are often seen in the company of less than, what would normally be considered, attractive males.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5649/lembitnewgirl415x275.jpg

[Bluehound]

Hehe yes, although I still think its a bit wierd.

[Emil Miller]

Hehe yes, although I still think its a bit wierd.


It gets even weirder, but I think the Louis Vuitton bag might have something to do with it.

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/1661/berniemodel500x678.jpg

[stlukesguild]

oh my god. I have had some shocks in my life....

No shock intended.

The mods may remove these posts, but I really wish they wouldn't because it would deny my experience, and as a person with a form of mental illness I don't need my experience denied. And I would really like to understand, why would you say this to me? Aren't you a school teacher?

Seriously, you are putting too much thought into an off-the-cuff comment simply challenging your posted notion of what appears to be "cheap" and "dirty". Yes, I am a teacher... but I'm on summer break right now so it's no holds barred.:eek2::lol::goof: Seriously, I don't see that being a teacher makes one any more or less of a sexual... or ethical being... at least not outside of the expected professional behavior. Even so... you should remember I'm also an artist... and you know those artists.:smilewinkgrin:

I was saying that that was my perspective of that picture. To me it is cheap, dirty, diseased and generic - and not attractive.

And that's well and fine. Seriously, she's not my ideal. But I would also suggest that even those whose ideal partner might be someone highly intelligent, sophisticated, tasteful, elegant, well-mannered and profoundly spiritual may still find cheap, dirty, and lustful to have it attractions.

Emil calls himself "Retired Degenerate" and Neely says, "What would Woody do?" At least they don't pretend to be something they're not. But you call yourself St Luke.

My moniker is not intended as any suggestion of saintliness or purity. St. Luke was considered the patron saint of painters as the result of an apocryphal tale in which he painted a portrait of the Virgin and Child. The subject was quite popular among medieval and Renaissance artists:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3647/5845542566_e5e9562c0e_b.jpg

As a result of this connection with St. Luke, the painter's guilds... which essentially acted as unions for the painters, often became known as the Guild of Saint Luke or Saint Luke's Guild.

Emil and Neely haven't said anything awful like this directly to me.

Again... you are taking what is written here far too seriously... and too personal. My comment was intended to be off-the-cuff, and while it built upon your comments, it was really just thrown out for everyone or anyone to respond to... or ignore.

To the average male, the naked female body is the most breathtakingly beautiful work of art he has ever seen.

Why do you think that the nude is one of the largest subjects in the entire history of art?

[papayahed]

This thread is making me sick. I have to wonder why it's always the woman's fault. The women I know are sweet, kind, hardworking, generous people who don't really deserve the bull**** being piled on in this thread. I mean really why wouldn't we want to cozy up to these guys:


http://www.bellyfatanswers.com/images/beerbelly.jpg

http://media.lunch.com/d/d7/476439.jpg

http://www.mpcpoker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/drunk-guy-poker.jpg

[Shalot]

That I think is the difference that this thread is concerned with, I don't think women have the same kick-in-the-stomach reaction to the male body.


Interesting thought. Do you have any theory as to why that is? Something to do with evolution etc?

Maybe it's just hormones. Are people more likely to have a kick-in-the-gut reaction to another person depending on um, their hormone levels?

[Emil Miller]

I mean really why wouldn't we want to cozy up to these guys:


http://www.bellyfatanswers.com/images/beerbelly.jpg

http://media.lunch.com/d/d7/476439.jpg

http://www.mpcpoker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/drunk-guy-poker.jpg

I think you might have been looking in the wrong places.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8127/unledymc.png

[doowoop]

What a strange question. If a woman wants to hug her boyfriend that she does it.

[LitNetIsGreat]

This would explain why gorgeous females are often seen in the company of less than, what would normally be considered, attractive males.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5649/lembitnewgirl415x275.jpg

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

[stlukesguild]

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

And I'll bet any number of American politicians envy him... or rather Europe's lack of Puritanism when it comes to anything sexual.

[Emil Miller]

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

Sorry about this Neely but that is only one of many glamorous females Lembit has been romantically involved with. Here he is with one of his former girlfriends, a member of the Cheeky Girls duo.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1188/article11330350213d7970.jpg



[COLOR="DarkRed"]And I'll bet any number of American politicians envy him... or rather Europe's lack of Puritanism when it comes to anything sexual.

President Clinton seemed to do OK with his dalliance in the oval office.
As for the English, the sexual licence that reigns in the UK is due to a kind of reverse psychology. As I have written in my first novel Pro Bono Publico: The sexual repression inherited from Puritan and Victorian forebears gives rise to an exaggerated prurience among the English....

[LitNetIsGreat]

Some things in life are just wrong and that's one of them. I mean Lembit's wrong full-stop but I am refering to the gorgeous girl and rich fool scenario - jealous? Well yes damn it.

And I'll bet any number of American politicians envy him... or rather Europe's lack of Puritanism when it comes to anything sexual.

Oh, there's a bit of Puritanism going on with the American politicians then? The UK is quite uptight at times though (of course we are speaking generally...) but I think elsewhere in Europe there is greater scope for sexual liberalism for sure.



I think the points being made about evolution and mating may be the key though, it would be important for the male to be instantly attracted to a mate (ie on sight)so he could maximize his seed spreading , where as it would be important for a female to take a bit more time to choose her mate (ie observe if he would be a good provider first) - we females may even be programmed not to find men instantly visually attractive.

But that is not the same as saying we find your bodies ugly.

Good point. I dunno. I just suspect that women are not as obsessed as men when it comes to sex and are therefore just not that fussed. Again another generalisation, but I guess you can relate it back to reproduction again in the same way.

Boy, doesn't biology take all the fun and mysticism out of it all?

Edit: oh boy, just seen above, anyone fancy a punch up?

[Emil Miller]

Edit: oh boy, just seen above, anyone fancy a punch up?

I admit that it's annoying, but try to contain the violence even though this next photo might be seen as provocative.


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6698/lembit2203mos468x667.jpg

[Lokasenna]

Ahem, Lembit isn't the only one with two nice ladies...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/niceevening.jpg

Joking aside, the girl on the left is a good friend; the one on the right is more of an aquaintance - I wouldn't try anything on with either of them, I'd get my head kicked in.

To return to the topic of the male body, I was having an interesting conversation the other day. Now, I'm of the opinion (and always have been) that I am not particularly physically attractive - tall, pale and gangly, with glasses and wild, mousey hair. And yet the other day I was with a group of friends, and the conversation turned to physical appearance and the desirability thereof - and, in response to a comment of mine along the above lines, one of my friends (who is gay and not single) commented that he'd always found me rather handsome. This was, to say the least, rather shocking to me - it was in no sense a proposition or anything, simply a statement of fact on his part. Then the other night at a formal dinner, I overheard a middle-age lady quietly comment on me to her male partner, saying "what a handsome young man." Again, this rather floored me - it is not a manner in which I think of myself, and I'm still minded to think them wrong.

Now, I freely accept that a middle-age woman and a young gay man might view the male body in a different way, but nonetheless this double-whammy has rather knocked the stuffing out of me. So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

[Vonny]

Ahem, Lembit isn't the only one with two nice ladies...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/niceevening.jpg

Joking aside, the girl on the left is a good friend; the one on the right is more of an aquaintance - I wouldn't try anything on with either of them, I'd get my head kicked in.

To return to the topic of the male body, I was having an interesting conversation the other day. Now, I'm of the opinion (and always have been) that I am not particularly physically attractive - tall, pale and gangly, with glasses and wild, mousey hair. And yet the other day I was with a group of friends, and the conversation turned to physical appearance and the desirability thereof - and, in response to a comment of mine along the above lines, one of my friends (who is gay and not single) commented that he'd always found me rather handsome. This was, to say the least, rather shocking to me - it was in no sense a proposition or anything, simply a statement of fact on his part. Then the other night at a formal dinner, I overheard a middle-age lady quietly comment on me to her male partner, saying "what a handsome young man." Again, this rather floored me - it is not a manner in which I think of myself, and I'm still minded to think them wrong.

Now, I freely accept that a middle-age woman and a young gay man might view the male body in a different way, but nonetheless this double-whammy has rather knocked the stuffing out of me. So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

Yes Lokasenna, it's a confidence issue!! Your perception can be a bit distorted, the same as mine :lol:

This is one thing I'm sure of, though.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Loka, I don't believe a word of that - they're just two of your many foxy chicks I bet. Medieval poetry gets them everytime!

[Vonny]

Loka, I don't believe a word of that - they're just two of your many foxy chicks I bet. Medieval poetry gets them everytime!

:lol: You've definitely got a point about the medieval poetry!

It makes me laugh that Lokasenna has this problem! It's the most ludicrous thing.

[LitNetIsGreat]

:lol: You've definitely got a point about the medieval poetry!

It makes me laugh that Lokasenna has this problem! It's the most ludicrous thing.

Absolutely. The chicks love the Beowulf talk (they also quite like the Wilde stuff as well, ha, ha, ha - [evil laugh]).


So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

Well the original point came from a woman so I don't know. I suspect it is like my biology points previously.

Really, I think women are just after the money myself. I don't trust them. Look at Lembit. Good personality?

[Shalot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNRrRFe11eg

:p

[stlukesguild]

Emil/Brian- President Clinton seemed to do OK with his dalliance in the oval office.

I don't know. He almost got impeached by the Neo-Con Republicans who were looking for anything to hang him by.

As for the English, the sexual licence that reigns in the UK is due to a kind of reverse psychology. As I have written in my first novel Pro Bono Publico: The sexual repression inherited from Puritan and Victorian forebears gives rise to an exaggerated prurience among the English....

Our population includes the heirs of a good many Puritanical sects that were kicked out of Europe... and with good reason. While we have produced endless Hollywood sex symbols, Rock'n'Roll, Rap, mottos such as "Sex Sells" and the California/Californication Porno industry, we also still have more than our fare share of puritanical religious sects and politicians who believe that they have the right to dictate what others do in their bedroom (or elsewhere for that matter:smilewinkgrin:). As a result, we may have become the first neurotic... if not schizophrenic superpower. My Jewish friend blames it all on Freud and the plethora of Jewish therapists in the US. Just look at Tony Soprano.:smash:

Loka, I don't believe a word of that - they're just two of your many foxy chicks I bet. Medieval poetry gets them everytime!

Absolutely. The chicks love the Beowulf talk (they also quite like the Wilde stuff as well, ha, ha, ha - [evil laugh]).

I actually remember thinking that the girls would be impressed with me lugging about my hefty edition of Dante's Comedia.:shocked::D:rofl::lol:

Seriously, I actually met Mrs. StLuke to be while she was browsing a copy of The Comedia in a bookstore. It's a long and complex story and I don't know if the whole thing is symbolic... and of what?:crazy:

[Emil Miller]

The Comedia[/I] in a bookstore. It's a long and complex story and I don't know if the whole thing is symbolic... and of what?:crazy:

Long ago, when I was taking a course in German at a language school, among the others in the group was a very attractive girl who immediately caught my attention. She was very friendly and it might have led to a romantic conclusion, but one day she turned up with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and after that you couldn't see my heels for the dust.

[stlukesguild]

Long ago, when I was taking a course in German at a language school, among the others in the group was a very attractive girl who immediately caught my attention. She was very friendly and it might have led to a romantic conclusion, but one day she turned up with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and after that you couldn't see my heels for the dust.

I must say, the possibility of a romantic entanglement might have been just enough to convince me to give Finnegan's Wake another go.:brow:

[MarkBastable]

And that's well and fine. Seriously, she's not my ideal. But I would also suggest that even those whose ideal partner might be someone highly intelligent, sophisticated, tasteful, elegant, well-mannered and profoundly spiritual may still find cheap, dirty, and lustful to have it attractions.


Damn right. Life offers the straight male no prospect more gratifying than finding himself in a hotel room after midnight with a chilled bottle of vodka, a mellow reefer and an intelligent, well-read, articulate, cheap, dirty slut.

And, incidentally, I am not using any of those words in a perjorative sense, as I hope the context makes clear.

[Emil Miller]

I must say, the possibility of a romantic entanglement might have been just enough to convince me to give Finnegan's Wake another go.:brow:

When she first appeared she had a copy of Le journal des Goncourt and that was part of the attraction, but Finnegan's Wake was a complete turn off. As for reading it twice, I would turn down a romantic entanglement with the young Brigitte Bardot rather than submit myself to the unreadable masterpiece.

[Vonny]

Stluke,

I suddenly get it that this is your sense of humor. I didn't understand that. My world is different from yours and so I completely didn't get it! I thought you were just being insulting.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Seriously, I actually met Mrs. StLuke to be while she was browsing a copy of The Comedia in a bookstore. It's a long and complex story and I don't know if the whole thing is symbolic... and of what?


Long ago, when I was taking a course in German at a language school, among the others in the group was a very attractive girl who immediately caught my attention. She was very friendly and it might have led to a romantic conclusion, but one day she turned up with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and after that you couldn't see my heels for the dust.

I must say these are great stories. The meeting over Dante and the running away from Finnegan's Wake, great stuff! I wonder if other people have had similar encounters?

[iamnobody]

Ahem, Lembit isn't the only one with two nice ladies...

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i48/Naeblis1963/niceevening.jpg

Joking aside, the girl on the left is a good friend; the one on the right is more of an aquaintance - I wouldn't try anything on with either of them, I'd get my head kicked in.

To return to the topic of the male body, I was having an interesting conversation the other day. Now, I'm of the opinion (and always have been) that I am not particularly physically attractive - tall, pale and gangly, with glasses and wild, mousey hair. And yet the other day I was with a group of friends, and the conversation turned to physical appearance and the desirability thereof - and, in response to a comment of mine along the above lines, one of my friends (who is gay and not single) commented that he'd always found me rather handsome. This was, to say the least, rather shocking to me - it was in no sense a proposition or anything, simply a statement of fact on his part. Then the other night at a formal dinner, I overheard a middle-age lady quietly comment on me to her male partner, saying "what a handsome young man." Again, this rather floored me - it is not a manner in which I think of myself, and I'm still minded to think them wrong.

Now, I freely accept that a middle-age woman and a young gay man might view the male body in a different way, but nonetheless this double-whammy has rather knocked the stuffing out of me. So the question I want to ask is this: is it really an issue of women not liking the male body, or men merely thinking that they don't? Is it more of a confidence issue than anything else?

I haven't commented on this before because I thought the premise was rather absurd. I don't think the male body is ugly and don't believe most women think that either. Men pay more compliments to women to get women to like them. All a woman has to do to get men to like her is..well..be a woman. Not fair, but that's how it is.
For the record Loka, you are indeed very handsome.:yesnod:

[Jack of Hearts]

This should just be called the dating subforum rather than serious discussions.

Also, Lokasenna is a pretty man.






J

[Vonny]

Lokasenna is a pretty man.


Beautiful describes him better. And handsome.

[ftil]

Oh, I had fun reading this tread. BTW, I wouldn’t give any thought to that article. :D I think that human body is beautiful. I see it as a part of our programming that glorifies a female body. I had a tread on another forum where I posted paintings, particularly, paintings of females. I focused on contemporary artists’ work. One of my friends has asked why I have posted erotic paintings. I was shocked because it didn’t see it that way as I was moved by the beauty. Many female were naked but it was a naked breast in many instances. I took another look at those paintings, trying to view it through male eyes. He was right. Interestingly enough, there were male and female painters. I have realized that both artists and I fell a victim of our programming as advertisement and movies focus on sensuality of women. But women are much more than being sexual.

[G L Wilson]

Nude up, people, especially if you're a beauty.

[jacked]

It's a stupid myth that women don't care about the male body. It isn't socially acceptable for women talk about their sexual desires towards men. Why don't women ask men out to the degree that men ask women out? They don't want to be seen as "easy" or what not. A lot of it is learned behavior. Neuroscience 101 women find men sexually attractive and men find women sexually attractive. Playgirl isn't a failure because women aren't visual it's because again women aren't allowed to do this or they are see as (fill in the blank). With that being said any girl I've talked to find Channing Tatum hot and I know several girls who have half naked men hanging on their walls in their dorm room. rant/

[faithosaurus]

As a woman, I can't say I find the male body ugly, but I know some friends that say that. Personally, I enjoy having someone larger and stronger to cuddle with. Well, when I'm in the mood for human contact.

[cacian]

do they? I am surprised they do but then a lot of things are ugly when someone feels they are.
it works both ways.

[Emil Miller]

I know several girls who have half naked men hanging on their walls in their dorm room.

I do hope it's not by the neck.

[liza]

I am a woman and I don't like men body also :) I think they are ugly, hairy, with different things sticking out .. without symmetry :) I think the best is .. a mix of two .. woman body with men thing :)

[Emil Miller]

I am a woman and I don't like men body also :) I think they are ugly, hairy, with different things sticking out .. without symmetry :) I think the best is .. a mix of two .. woman body with men thing :)

I'm intrigued by the asymmetrical things that stick out, could you elaborate?

[stlukesguild]

I am a woman and I don't like men(s) body also I think they are ugly, hairy, with different things sticking out .. without symmetry

Michelangelo was a man... and he would have probably disagreed... even on purely aesthetic terms...

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/DavidSafeforWorksmall_zps2aa3ade7.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/DavidSafeforWorksmall_zps2aa3ade7.jpg.html)

-Michelangelo's David (edited for your safety:skep:)

Of course other artist might have agreed with your idea of an androgynous body:

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/hermes_by_praxiteles-editedforyoursafety_zpsb9c486ec.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/hermes_by_praxiteles-editedforyoursafety_zpsb9c486ec.jpg.html)

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg581/StlukesguildOhio/donatello-david2SFW_zps9688c4c0.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/StlukesguildOhio/media/donatello-david2SFW_zps9688c4c0.jpg.html)

[liza]

I'm intrigued by the asymmetrical things that stick out, could you elaborate?

:) :)


I am a woman and I don't like men(s) body also I think they are ugly, hairy, with different things sticking out .. without symmetry

Michelangelo was a man... and he would have probably disagreed... even on purely aesthetic terms...

-Michelangelo's David (edited for your safety:skep:)


Of course other artist might have agreed with your idea of an androgynous body:


Michelangelo's mens : )?


Michelangelo liked young men :) but me every time I see a naked man..for the first time .. I'm shocked .. (in a way that I don't like it) .. but then I get used with it .. I don't know why .. :)

[faithosaurus]

It's a stupid myth that women don't care about the male body. It isn't socially acceptable for women talk about their sexual desires towards men. Why don't women ask men out to the degree that men ask women out? They don't want to be seen as "easy" or what not. A lot of it is learned behavior. Neuroscience 101 women find men sexually attractive and men find women sexually attractive. Playgirl isn't a failure because women aren't visual it's because again women aren't allowed to do this or they are see as (fill in the blank). With that being said any girl I've talked to find Channing Tatum hot and I know several girls who have half naked men hanging on their walls in their dorm room. rant/

This makes complete sense. I know some people think bad of me because I don't have a problem talking about those kinds of things, which I think is ridiculous. I am also guilty of having a half naked man on one of my walls in my room. Or, was. The only thing I have trouble with is asking a man out, but that's more from fear of rejection rather than looking easy.

[stlukesguild]

Michelangelo's mens : )?

Your original post read: "I don't like men body..." It should have read "I don't like men's bodies" (possessive and plural)

Michelangelo liked young men but me every time I see a naked man..for the first time .. I'm shocked .. (in a way that I don't like it) .. but then I get used with it .. I don't know why ..

Art and reality are never the same. Few women look like the classical Venuses... or even an airbrushed/photo-shopped Playboy centerfold, a Hollywood publicity still, or a fashion magazine photo. Even so I don't think I can say I have ever been shocked (in a negative manner) by the real human body.

[Melanie]

I've never seen David's private part blacked out...I'm still laughing (but I understand why).
But what's interesting is that now that his private part isn't showing, I'm noticing how big
his hand is! I mean it...it's BIG! Look at it...that's the BIGGEST hand I've ever seen!!
I never noticed that before. I mean it...LQQK. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen his
hand before at all, let alone the size. I find his body beautiful btw. I kinda' want to lift
that sticker up and peek underneath...for the sake of art appreciation of course. It's just
a little annoying :nod: ....but i know it's necessary for Litnet.
http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t540/melaniespoetry/b8722af9-9409-4410-bd03-5260aa83afd7_zpsd7e791e9.jpg (http://s1312.photobucket.com/user/melaniespoetry/media/b8722af9-9409-4410-bd03-5260aa83afd7_zpsd7e791e9.jpg.html)

[Delta40]

Nude up, people, especially if you're a beauty.

It's comments like this which shame so much of the population. They don't make the perceived grade and feel they are best hidden.

[Melanie]

I think you might be taking this thread way too seriously, Delta. I mean, how serious of a discussion can it be when it's titled, "Why do many women find 'the male body' ugly?" in a Literature site?

[Delta40]

I think you might be taking this thread way too seriously, Delta. I mean, how serious of a discussion can it be when it's titled, "Why do many women find 'the male body' ugly?" in a Literature site?

It's just a response Mel. Too bad if it didnt sweeten your cup of tea.

[stlukesguild]

Michelangelo was a master of anatomy. All of his distortions were done with reason. The David was initially intended to be seen from below... up on a niche on the Cathedral of Florence. The heavy undercutting of the hair above his furrowed brow and the over-sized hand holding the stone he will use to slay Goliath were both intended to convey the heavy weight of the challenge that lies before him. Where most portrayals of David focused upon the young warrior in action or after the Goliath's defeat... with his head at the youth's feet, Michelangelo offered a true Renaissance image. David is seen as a thinking man... deep in thought at he stares into the distance... the future. The notion of the intellectual warrior/man as a rational being is reinforced by the body itself which is clearly modeled upon classical Greco-Roman ideals or canons of beauty.

[*Classic*Charm*]

It's comments like this which shame so much of the population. They don't make the perceived grade and feel they are best hidden.

Agreed, Delta.

Do many women find "the male body" ugly? In what sense? I can't say I know any women who would say that the male form with all its variations and states is ugly regardless of those variations and states. While art can be based upon or serve to represent a body, a body itself is not a piece of art, in my opinion. It is not "created". It is a functional thing, a system or unit, and as far as I am concerned, is beautiful by virtue of its being able to serve its function. I don't look at a body and say it's ugly or not simply by looking at it, immobile and inanimate- it is beautiful or ugly in so far as I can picture it in use.

I can understand having a varied level of physical attraction to one body or another, but I cannot understand how one could find the male body ugly simply by virtue of its form.

[Buh4Bee]

Answer to the OP- Because many modern men do not take care of the body, the body is not that attractive. I offer my opinion from personal experience from my free-love days. As a waitress, at the time,I was well structured, but the hand-full or more of men I was with were not well maintained. It left one feeling deprived, and even a little disappointed. The simple truth is, that it takes work to keep something good looking, not necessarily just possessing good genes or being young. I think many people just don't maintain the body, therefore it is found unattractive.

[Emil Miller]

Answer to the OP- Because many modern men do not take care of the body, the body is not that attractive. I offer my opinion from personal experience from my free-love days. As a waitress, at the time,I was well structured, but the hand-full or more of men I was with were not well maintained. It left one feeling deprived, and even a little disappointed. The simple truth is, that it takes work to keep something good looking, not necessarily just possessing good genes or being youth. I think many people just don't maintain the body, therefore it is found unattractive.

I had this discussion with an unprepossessing fat man of the type that can be seen everywhere. I said that once a man is married he no longer has the incentive to keep in trim, women know this and fatten their husbands up so that they are no longer attractive to other women. He gave a knowing grin and said: 'Well, that's the theory.'

[Volya]

I had this discussion with an unprepossessing fat man of the type that can be seen everywhere. I said that once a man is married he no longer has the incentive to keep in trim, women know this and fatten their husbands up so that they are no longer attractive to other women. He gave a knowing grin and said: 'Well, that's the theory.'

Surely a wife wants their husband to be attractive so that it is more fun...

[Emil Miller]

Surely a wife wants their husband to be attractive so that it is more fun...

Well if that's the case, the majority have fallen by the wayside.

[Buh4Bee]

Fat phobias aside, its just the body. There is so much more to a person than how they look. I think one has to be pretty superficial, particularly when older to push oneself to exercise and control what is consumed. For some people, as one ages, there is less reason to stay motivation. The main reason to stay fit is for health. But I just offering an opinion. I'm pregnant and all want to do is eat. The body can be a disgusting thing. And on as side note, I have great sympathy for those that cannot control their food and as a result end up habitually over-eating.

[OrphanPip]

Surely a wife wants their husband to be attractive so that it is more fun...

Some attractive people are **** in bed, I'm not certain the fun one has in bed is all that related to the physical appearance of the one you're with. I've dated skinny men and fat men, and not once while I was in those relationships did I ever think I wished their bodies were different. It is admirable for people to be healthy but I find diet obsessed gym bunnies are almost invariably boring narcissists who make for poor lovers.

Anyhoo, I have no way to know whether women find the male form attractive or not, but I quite like it.

[tonywalt]

I just like a funny personality, also character and ability to play with others. Lastly, how they look! - eh, that's just me. All my mates are the same....oh yea.