View Full Version : Ignorance is bliss?
G L Wilson
05-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Knowledge is all, for bliss is something you feel just before you get hit by a bus.
YW1990
10-24-2011, 12:33 PM
Ignorance definitely is bliss. The more you know, the heavier you are. The less you know, the lighter you are because you are not harrowed by awareness.
I agree with you my friends, ignorance can be bliss mostly and the root of our stress is knowledge and experience. The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice.
But unfortunately this is not always the case. Ignorance of laws has no excuse. And at the same time the bliss the average eastern woman enjoys is due to the lack of the knowledge about their rights and duties.
togre
10-24-2011, 03:54 PM
I must take a different stance. In college I read (or was forced to read) something that argued education is necessary for true happiness. That might be an exaggeration, but the increase of knowledge does increase the range and depth of experiences one can have. To argue ignorance is bliss can only be upheld if you simultaneously hold a dreadfully pessimistic view of reality (Life is pain, etc.). But as knowledge grows, joy can be found in more things. As I learned to read I found joy in books. As I learned music theory I was able to enjoy music on a level beyond "It sounds good." I have a background in agriculture and can find joy in a healthy herd of cattle, a field ready to be harvested or a barn stacked with hay. My knowledge of what these things are and ability to discern the beautiful from the damaged has brought me more opportunities to have joy and more depth to the joy I have.
Likewise, there are things I do not know, yet I recognize could bring me greater or different joy. I do not know knitting, so I can only appreciate the warmth or appearance of a sweater, but not the skill of it's fashioning. And so on.
Regarding ignorance of rights, etc. Is it really better to have one happy to be in one's position because they don't know there are options? Or to be happy because they are aware of the options and chose to remain? Is the obedience of a slave or a son more treasured?
Freudian Monkey
10-24-2011, 05:09 PM
Personally I view ignorance as a synonym for immaturity. To become an adult is to gain knowledge that we didn't possess as a child; to not gain knowledge is to stay in an immature state. Also, with knowledge always comes responsibility, and without knowledge there can (or at least should not be) responsibility. For instance in worklife you only work within your field of knowledge and you will not be put into a position where you will not know what to do.
So is ignorance a bliss? If it's a bliss to be immature, without knowledge or responsibility, then it certainly is.
However, we all lose some of our childlike innocence sooner or later, don't we? Some more, some less.
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
-Proust
Buh4Bee
10-24-2011, 07:57 PM
But unfortunately this is not always the case. Ignorance of laws has no excuse. And at the same time the bliss the average eastern woman enjoys is due to the lack of the knowledge about their rights and duties.
What I believe you are saying is that a western woman may stay in a bad marriage because of ignorance of the law? She does not know what her legal rights are, because she is blissfully ignorant?
Am I understanding you clearly?
If so, I think this point of view may be very narrow. There could be a million reason way a woman would stay married.
I agree with you my friends, ignorance can be bliss mostly and the root of our stress is knowledge and experience. The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice.
But unfortunately this is not always the case. Ignorance of laws has no excuse. And at the same time the bliss the average eastern woman enjoys is due to the lack of the knowledge about their rights and duties.
Hm……are you saying that western women can’t experience the bliss in marriage…….because they are not ignorant and they are stressed out due to having knowledge and experience? :lol:
I can’t say that much about Eastern culture. However, where I live we have big population of emigrants from China, Taiwan, or Korea. It would be the last thing that I would say about them as they constitute the majority of students at university. Their parents have the same expectations for sons as for daughters. I guess eastern women would have to suffer in marriage without the bliss. too. :cryin:
Buh4Bee
10-24-2011, 09:24 PM
All I can say is whomever is correct, whatever Osho means, offends me. ftil, your comprehension may be better than mine. But I'd still like clarity on the statement.
All I can say is whomever is correct, whatever Osho means, offends me. ftil, your comprehension may be better than mine. But I'd still like clarity on the statement.
Oh, I don’t know if I understood Osho correctly and I would appreciate his clarification too.
Varenne Rodin
10-25-2011, 12:44 AM
I like what Togre said.
This necessitates some more illumination. All I have said is in the East women are not as educated, intellectual as those in the West. That is why they in the east are more ignorant. They are not aware of their rights.Their religions, and the social and ethical standards and norms born of their religions have conditioned their minds not to defy their male-counterparts. Traditionally women used to be burned on a pyre.Today in some metropolis things are different. More than 90 percent Indians are brutally treated. I am not from India yet I have learned a lot about India. Second marriages are generally unacceptable in most Indian villages though today more and more women are getting modernized or westernized and they are rebelling a bit.
Why this happens is they were taught or programmed to be tolerant, ignorant.There are fewer cases of divorces or separations. Few women dare to raise their voices against their male-counterparts. It seems there is harmony,cohesion and understanding in their families. But few can see the suppression prevailing there. And we know the same thing happens in some Islamic societies like. Ignorance in such cases seem bliss but in actuality it is not so.
I am not critical of western sobriety. They are more educated, freer and do not accept enslavement the way it is in Hindu and Muslim societies. They are bolder, braver and they love freedom at any expense. I want to sing songs in praise of them despite the fact that there are more numbers of divorces there every year.
Slavery breeds hatred ultimately. It keeps people ignorant of some of the basic facts and those keepers of ignorance or some socially and of course religiously, racially or ethnically privileged males choose to keep their wives, sisters, mothers ignorant of their rights to ensure that they are served or worshiped. In Hinduism males are considered superior Gods though in some cases females are also worshiped. Buddhism however sets women somewhat freer( I am talking against any religion at all only some ignoble practices and social mores or ills)
Osho wrote:
This necessitates some more illumination. All I have said is in the East women are not as educated, intellectual as those in the West. That is why they in the east are more ignorant. They are not aware of their rights.
Oh, Osho you are turning everything upside down now. :brow: Earlier you said that” ignorance can be bliss and the root of stress is knowledge and experience” Now, you are saying that “more than 90 percent Indians are brutally treated” Hm…...are you saying that a brutal treatment is….the bliss and better than stress resulting from having knowledge or experience? :biggrinjester:
So, what about “knowledge is power”
YW1990
10-25-2011, 03:27 AM
So is ignorance a bliss? If it's a bliss to be immature, without knowledge or responsibility, then it certainly is.
It's definitely bliss to have all of those.
Being immature means that people pardon you for your foolishness. True they will see you as immature and foolish but they also let you slide with that one. What gets you into trouble is also your get out of jail free card.
Without knowledge means less options. The less options you have the more satisfied you are. Knowing more only leads to more questions. And although knowing more can lead to happiness too, what we don't know can't hurt us.
Without responsibility? Well that's a no brainer. FREEDOM
Oh, Osho you are turning everything upside down now. :brow: Earlier you said that” ignorance can be bliss and the root of stress is knowledge and experience” Now, you are saying that “more than 90 percent Indians are brutally treated” Hm…...are you saying that a brutal treatment is….the bliss and better than stress resulting from having knowledge or experience? :biggrinjester:
So, what about “knowledge is power”
Maybe I lacked the skill of putting forth what I wanted to say. My poor writing skill created a fissure between what I wanted to say and what I actually verbalized. Notwithstanding all I have said in both of my posts the essence was ignorance can be bliss for a time and this blissfulness has already paid a price or will have to if not. I have in a while illuminated on this giving a fair comparison of two diverse cultures. I always side with knowledge and ignorance imperils us. In our childhoods ignorance can be bliss, once we become grownups ignorance puts us at risk and I reiterate your own expression "knowledge is power" and do not want to go for ignorance. I never choose to reverse my course of life towards a state of barbarism wherein ignorance could be bless, not in this twenty first century.
Maybe I lacked the skill of putting forth what I wanted to say. My poor writing skill created a fissure between what I wanted to say and what I actually verbalized. Notwithstanding all I have said in both of my posts the essence was ignorance can be bliss for a time and this blissfulness has already paid a price or will have to if not. I have in a while illuminated on this giving a fair comparison of two diverse cultures. I always side with knowledge and ignorance imperils us. In our childhoods ignorance can be bliss, once we become grownups ignorance puts us at risk and I reiterate your own expression "knowledge is power" and do not want to go for ignorance. I never choose to reverse my course of life towards a state of barbarism wherein ignorance could be bless, not in this twenty first century.
Ok. But what about western women and the reason of divorce as you said, “The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice."
Are you saying that western women got too much education……..that knowledge is an obstacle and stands on their way of being happily married? :brow:
It sounds that consciousness is really bad…….women may discover mistreatment, for example. :smilewinkgrin:
Ok. But what about western women and the reason of divorce as you said, “The reason why more and more people are divorcing in the west is everybody is too much conscious about his or her rights and enjoying the freed of knowledge, the freedom of economic and political choice."
Are you saying that western women got too much education……..that knowledge is an obstacle and stands on their way of being happily married? :brow:
It sounds that consciousness is really bad…….women may discover mistreatment, for example. :smilewinkgrin:
Quite the contrary of your understanding of my statement, western women are freer than their counter-parts eastern and that is why they have taken bolder steps to live separately, yet freely and independently though a little stressfully.
Scheherazade
10-25-2011, 04:42 AM
Ignorance is bliss for the person who is ignorant... Much to the chagrin of those who have to endure it.
Abookinthebath
10-25-2011, 05:03 AM
If ignorance is bliss.....
Then "competence, cultivation, education, experience, intelligence, knowledge, literacy, talent, wisdom" leads to "grief, misery, sorrow, unhappiness, upset" .......(opposite-dictionary.com)
There is a flaw in the argument somewhere!!
Quite the contrary of your understanding of my statement, western women are freer than their counter-parts eastern and that is why they have taken bolder steps to live separately, yet freely and independently though a little stressfully.
We are on the same page now. Lol I misunderstood your words as you said,” too much conscious” I took it as your disapproval.
BTW, having consciousness is never “too much” :wink5:
We are on the same page now. Lol I misunderstood your words as you said,” too much conscious” I took it as your disapproval.
BTW, having consciousness is never “too much” :wink5:
Maybe you are right and this is the slip of words that often gives a wrong message. And it is interesting this led to a series of discussions and that again made clear some of the points that needed clarity. That is the beauty of disagreement. Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.
Freudian Monkey
10-25-2011, 03:04 PM
It's definitely bliss to have all of those.
Being immature means that people pardon you for your foolishness. True they will see you as immature and foolish but they also let you slide with that one. What gets you into trouble is also your get out of jail free card.
Without knowledge means less options. The less options you have the more satisfied you are. Knowing more only leads to more questions. And although knowing more can lead to happiness too, what we don't know can't hurt us.
Without responsibility? Well that's a no brainer. FREEDOM
Interesting. Thank you for your post. :)
But does this freedom lead to happiness? Most philosophers argue that reaching our full potential as human beings is what makes us truly happy. What is freedom anyway? Freedom to do as you like? But if you have less options, how can you do what you want? I believe that one has to have power (more options) to be able to do what one wishes, at least if he lives in a civilized society. If you don't have power yourself, you rely on others that grant you power (like the government, law, civil rights, family etc). Or maybe you just mean freedom as in modern american political rhetoric, where it really doesn't mean anything other than something that most people see as a positive thing. :)
Also to not know something doesn't mean that it wouldn't be able to hurt us - we just don't know what is hurting us. I can understand that you probably mean your point in a more abstract level, but again if we get down to real life, ignorance isn't really that beneficial for human beings - it might seem to make life easier in an individual level, but in the end it just makes it a lot harder for all of us.
Hmm, this lead my thoughts to Wikileaks and other so called whistle-blower organizations. Does anyone have an opinion about them? Do we need all the information they would like to provide? Or are we better off not knowing? I don't ask this on a political level but rather on a philosophical one. Hopefully this doesn't go too off-topic.
Maybe you are right and this is the slip of words that often gives a wrong message. And it is interesting this led to a series of discussions and that again made clear some of the points that needed clarity. That is the beauty of disagreement. Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.
Hm…it is not a matter of being right or wrong. Even if we do our best to express our thoughts as clearly as possible, others may still misunderstand us. It is not our fault or theirs. I have noticed that when people clarify the controversial issues, they more likely find many similarities even though they disagreed in the first place.
Well, I don’t see agreement as dull and unromantic. There are values that are universal and I definitely agree on that. I view it as a matter of having a strong sense of self with which comes the freedom to let others be without the need to control what they think or do. :wink5:
Buh4Bee
10-25-2011, 04:47 PM
You said it all!
YW1990
10-26-2011, 09:44 AM
if we get down to real life, ignorance isn't really that beneficial for human beings - it might seem to make life easier in an individual level, but in the end it just makes it a lot harder for all of us.
The individual level is how we experience both ignorance and bliss. Ignorance may not be beneficial for human beings, as in me being ignorant may not be very pleasant or understandable for someone else but if being ignorant equates to having bliss for the individual, then i'll find it hard to believe that that particular individual will give up his/her time of bliss for the good of others. Sounds selfish but it's true.
Once you agree on a certain point you will be dull and unromantic.
That is so romantic ( But i am a hopeless romantic so don't take that the wrong way )
You know, for the field of literature, art etc that is the topic most frequented by this forum, there comes a lot of cold, intellectuality with the terrain. I find it funny how for such an emotional terrain there comes such distanced logical responses and statements.
Freudian Monkey
10-26-2011, 12:26 PM
The individual level is how we experience both ignorance and bliss. Ignorance may not be beneficial for human beings, as in me being ignorant may not be very pleasant or understandable for someone else but if being ignorant equates to having bliss for the individual, then i'll find it hard to believe that that particular individual will give up his/her time of bliss for the good of others. Sounds selfish but it's true.
How exactly does one experience his own ignorance? :) Doesn't the experience of not knowing something lead to questions and ultimately to getting rid of ignorance? You may well be right about individuals valuing their own well-being over others, but you cannot really talk about happiness on a purely individual level, without bringing other people into the picture. We are constantly being influenced by other people and our own ignorance also affects them.
That is so romantic ( But i am a hopeless romantic so don't take that the wrong way )
You know, for the field of literature, art etc that is the topic most frequented by this forum, there comes a lot of cold, intellectuality with the terrain. I find it funny how for such an emotional terrain there comes such distanced logical responses and statements.
It is interesting what you said. Are you saying that people who are romantic don’t use their rational minds?
Paulclem
10-26-2011, 03:58 PM
Ignorence isn't bliss. It's full of frustration and dependancy on others.
Smply not knowing about stuff might mean you're happier than knowing, but there's always the possibility of finding out and suffering more on relflecting about what you did in ignorence.
Ignorence isn't bliss. It's full of frustration and dependancy on others.
Smply not knowing about stuff might mean you're happier than knowing, but there's always the possibility of finding out and suffering more on relflecting about what you did in ignorence.
I agree that the pain resulting from awakening from ignorance is quite high. It always involves sadness and a deep sense of loss that comes from realization what one has missed.
I am not sure if it involves frustration for ignorant person. But definitely it is a source of frustration for those who have to interact with the ignorant person. :brickwall
YW1990
10-27-2011, 01:05 AM
It is interesting what you said. Are you saying that people who are romantic don’t use their rational minds?
It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others. There is a quote that defines romanticism that i learnt in literature and that is, " The Eye Turns Inward ". Romantics live more or less in an insular frame of mind. The world is idealized inside their head. That's why we get that sort of mentality of the " Genius artist " or " The Outsider " that are both highly romantic and sustained through the individual.
Being romantic isn't rational. Rationality involves intellectual reasoning and logic. It is not about how you feel or your ideas. It's about reality ( the idea of reality is contestable though, best left for another thread ). Being romantic is all about feelings, emotions, and ideals.
How exactly does one experience his own ignorance? :) Doesn't the experience of not knowing something lead to questions and ultimately to getting rid of ignorance? You may well be right about individuals valuing their own well-being over others, but you cannot really talk about happiness on a purely individual level, without bringing other people into the picture. We are constantly being influenced by other people and our own ignorance also affects them.
You trumped me!
We can't know if we're ignorant of something can we? Hmm you're right about that.
It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others. There is a quote that defines romanticism that i learnt in literature and that is, " The Eye Turns Inward ". Romantics live more or less in an insular frame of mind. The world is idealized inside their head. That's why we get that sort of mentality of the " Genius artist " or " The Outsider " that are both highly romantic and sustained through the individual.
Being romantic isn't rational. Rationality involves intellectual reasoning and logic. It is not about how you feel or your ideas. It's about reality ( the idea of reality is contestable though, best left for another thread ). Being romantic is all about feelings, emotions, and ideals.
You are talking about “genius artist”. I would like to go back to your previous post where you talked about “ distanced logical responses and statements.” Therefore, I asked you if romantics can’t use rational minds. I view a personality as more complex than being black or white such as being romantic run by emotions and feelings or not. People may be romantic yet they use rational minds when it is appropriate. Can you imagine discussion on the forums that is run exclusively by emotion and feelings? :wink5:
YW1990
10-27-2011, 02:11 AM
You are talking about “genius artist”. I would like to go back to your previous post where you talked about “ distanced logical responses and statements.” Therefore, I asked you if romantics can’t use rational minds. I view a personality as more complex than being black or white such as being romantic run by emotions and feelings or not. People may be romantic yet they use rational minds when it is appropriate. Can you imagine discussion on the forums that is run exclusively by emotion and feelings? :wink5:
It's not as extreme as saying that they don't use their rational minds, but romantic people don't operate on a rational basis. All people possess some degree of rational thinking. But romantic people tend to be more divorced from reality than others.
Can you see that you've repeated partially what i've said?
You are right, it's not THIS or THAT. You are not entirely intellectual or entirely romantic and one may find that these two qualities co-exist inside you. There are seldom things in life that are absolute. You asked if Romantics were capable of using their rational minds. I said that they were, it's just romantic thinking is not motivated by rational thinking.
Can you see that you've repeated partially what i've said?
You are right, it's not THIS or THAT. You are not entirely intellectual or entirely romantic and one may find that these two qualities co-exist inside you. There are seldom things in life that are absolute. You asked if Romantics were capable of using their rational minds. I said that they were, it's just romantic thinking is not motivated by rational thinking.
Nothing is a distanced logical statement in point of fact and everything is related and why I wrote this statement that may sound rather extraneous is literature cannot shirk personal or emotional quotients. No literature devoid of emotional or intellectual shares can touch readers. I always try to keep both intact whether it comes to versing my feelings into poems or doing them into storylines. Both ways are parts and parcels when it comes doing creativity. You may reserve my points and yet the drive behind putting some emotional proportions here is simply to dodge justify the misinterpretation of the points both myself and ftl were discussing. We are while seeming on the emotional plane were not so exactly if you can penetrate deeper into what we have argued on
I said that they were, it's just romantic thinking is not motivated by rational thinking.
What about people who are quite emotional but they are not romantic?
You said earlier that, "Being romantic isn't rational". People who are emotional are not rational either as their emotions run their life.
Nothing is a distanced logical statement in point of fact and everything is related and why I wrote this statement that may sound rather extraneous is literature cannot shirk personal or emotional quotients. No literature devoid of emotional or intellectual shares can touch readers. I always try to keep both intact whether it comes to versing my feelings into poems or doing them into storylines. Both ways are parts and parcels when it comes doing creativity. You may reserve my points and yet the drive behind putting some emotional proportions here is simply to dodge justify the misinterpretation of the points both myself and ftl were discussing. We are while seeming on the emotional plane were not so exactly if you can penetrate deeper into what we have argued on
I am not sure if I understand you. There is difference when people write a poem, for example, and when they try to communicate with each other. I personally want to understand another person and his or her point of view. To be honest, I feel frustrated and loose my intrest when the language is convoluted. I don’t like to talk just for sake of talking but to understand, learn, and find similarity. Therefore, I think that communication skills are of the highest importance as we would avoid misunderstanding or conflicts.
I am not sure if I understand you. There is difference when people write a poem, for example, and when they try to communicate with each other. I personally want to understand another person and his or her point of view. To be honest, I feel frustrated and loose my intrest when the language is convoluted. I don’t like to talk just for sake of talking but to understand, learn, and find similarity. Therefore, I think that communication skills are of the highest importance as we would avoid misunderstanding or conflicts.
There was an approval by both of us on point a little while ago and suddenly someone critiqued that endorsement of a particular point. If you misunderstood me you can go a little back and reader our conversations. There is no convolution and I have no intention in doing that I am simply communicating things and some point put forth in one of the foregone posts was misleading and I talked against that with reference to one argument we had in this thread.
There was an approval by both of us on point a little while ago and suddenly someone critiqued that endorsement of a particular point. If you misunderstood me you can go a little back and reader our conversations. There is no convolution and I have no intention in doing that I am simply communicating things and some point put forth in one of the foregone posts was misleading and I talked against that with reference to one argument we had in this thread.
Hm…I remember our conversation. It would be more helpful if you clarifed what you meant in your previous post rather than expecting me……..to sit in your head and figure it out. I don’t do it.:brow:
YW1990
10-27-2011, 03:36 AM
Nothing is a distanced logical statement in point of fact and everything is related and why I wrote this statement that may sound rather extraneous is literature cannot shirk personal or emotional quotients. No literature devoid of emotional or intellectual shares can touch readers. I always try to keep both intact whether it comes to versing my feelings into poems or doing them into storylines. Both ways are parts and parcels when it comes doing creativity. You may reserve my points and yet the drive behind putting some emotional proportions here is simply to dodge justify the misinterpretation of the points both myself and ftl were discussing. We are while seeming on the emotional plane were not so exactly if you can penetrate deeper into what we have argued on
What are you saying here exactly? That i don't have the intelligence to understand what you are saying? Please un-pack this paragraph as i can't seem to process it clearly. Especially the last sentence.
What about people who are quite emotional but they are not romantic?
You said earlier that, "Being romantic isn't rational". People who are emotional are not rational either as their emotions run their life.
Well i wouldn't go so far again as to say emotional people ARE NOT rational. It's just what secures their perspective on things in the world is not fixated by a rational position.
What are you saying here exactly? That i don't have the intelligence to understand what you are saying? Please un-pack this paragraph as i can't seem to process it clearly. Especially the last sentence.
You have quoted one of my points about romanticism and I found that rather disagreeable. If you read one of my earlier points which you have commented upon and rethink your comment you will be answered. If you still fail to understand we will proceed to discuss it.
YW1990
10-27-2011, 04:26 AM
I just private messaged you so we don't clog up this entire thread with our exchange.
Well i wouldn't go so far again as to say emotional people ARE NOT rational. It's just what secures their perspective on things in the world is not fixated by a rational position.
Well, there are people who are emotional and reactive. They don’t feel, think, and then act but feel and react, skipping rational thinking. When they are angry, they don’t think …but scream, yell, or or hit the wall. :biggrinjester:
Scheherazade
10-27-2011, 02:13 PM
~
R e m i n d e r
The topic of this thread is "Ignorance is bliss."
Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.
~
Ecurb
10-27-2011, 05:07 PM
Well, there are people who are emotional and reactive. They don’t feel, think, and then act but feel and react, skipping rational thinking. When they are angry, they don’t think …but scream, yell, or or hit the wall. :biggrinjester:
How does "emotional and reactive" contradict "rational thinking"? Some people who scream, yell or hit the wall think rationally, and some do not. Being emotional and reactive and thinking rationally are not mutually exclusive, as ftil implies.
Personally, I'm capable of screaming, yelling, hitting walls and solving Lewis Carrol logic puzzles simultaneously. Perhaps ftil means, "If people think rationally, they never scream, yell, or hit walls." But that is simply her opinion, and I believe it to be incorrect. Rational thinking sometimes persuades us to scream and yell.
Excuse me a moment, while I hit (gently) a couple of walls. Being emotional and reactive is neither irrational nor ignorant.
How does "emotional and reactive" contradict "rational thinking"? Some people who scream, yell or hit the wall think rationally, and some do not. Being emotional and reactive and thinking rationally are not mutually exclusive, as ftil implies.
Personally, I'm capable of screaming, yelling, hitting walls and solving Lewis Carrol logic puzzles simultaneously. Perhaps ftil means, "If people think rationally, they never scream, yell, or hit walls." But that is simply her opinion, and I believe it to be incorrect. Rational thinking sometimes persuades us to scream and yell.
Excuse me a moment, while I hit (gently) a couple of walls. Being emotional and reactive is neither irrational nor ignorant.
Well, it is a a big difference to act or react but it is not that much connected with the subject of this tread. :wink5:
Ecurb
10-27-2011, 06:33 PM
Well, the question was: is ignorance bliss? A corollary: are “emotional” states of mind more “blissful” than “rational” states of mind. Of course they are, since “bliss” is an emotional state, not an intellectual one. So my point is that neither ignorance nor wisdom is “bliss”. And neither is contradictory to “bliss”.
Well, the question was: is ignorance bliss? A corollary: are “emotional” states of mind more “blissful” than “rational” states of mind. Of course they are, since “bliss” is an emotional state, not an intellectual one. So my point is that neither ignorance nor wisdom is “bliss”. And neither is contradictory to “bliss” either.
Hm…….emotional responses that are reactive are not blissful for those who deal with a reactive person. In other words, emotional ignorance is only blissful to the reactive person. :D
Ecurb
10-27-2011, 07:27 PM
I don't understand a word you say. Ftil says "emotional responses that are reactive are not blissful for those who deal with a reactive person." Suppose you say, "I love you" to someone, and that person, without pausing to think, responds by gushing, "Oh how I've hoped and dreamed for this day! I love you too, with all my heart and soul!" Then she starts covering you with kisses. According to ftil, the person who first said “I love you” cannot, somehow, find that "blissful". I don't get it.
ftil goes on to say, "In other words, emotional ignorance is only blissful to the reactive person." Since my entire point was that "ignorance" is not an emotional state, but a description of the level of knowledge someone has attained, I have no idea what “emotional ignorance” refers to. But, in my previous example, it appears that the emotional reaction of the “reactive person” (this sound like a legal brief) will probably create a “blissful state” for the initiator.
Ecurb wrote:
I don't understand a word you say. Ftil says "emotional responses that are reactive are not blissful for those who deal with a reactive person." Suppose you say, "I love you" to someone, and that person, without pausing to think, responds by gushing, "Oh how I've hoped and dreamed for this day! I love you too, with all my heart and soul!" Then she starts covering you with kisses. According to ftil, the person who first said “I love you” cannot, somehow, find that "blissful". I don't get it.
Hehehe…...I was not talking about expressing love. I talked about less pleasurable emotions like anger or rage that is expressed in inappropriate or even a threatening manner.
ftil goes on to say, "In other words, emotional ignorance is only blissful to the reactive person." Since my entire point was that "ignorance" is not an emotional state, but a description of the level of knowledge someone has attained, I have no idea what “emotional ignorance” refers to. But, in my previous example, it appears that the emotional reaction of the “reactive person” (this sound like a legal brief) will probably create a “blissful state” for the initiator.
Ignorance is not an emotional state. I agree on that. I was talking about the lack of knowledge about appropriate ways of dealing and expressing emotions. In other words, it s not about we feel but how we express it. We may be happy and out of happiness we may want to dance naked on the street. But for how long we can enjoy dancing….. :biggrinjester:
I don’t say emotional response or rational responses. If we emphasize emotional response, we ignore relational mind and vice versa. We need both and we can’t ignore one or the other……..if we don’t want to be blissfully ignorant of others. Some may call it emotional immaturity or we may call it emotional ignorance.
This is a very interesting thread and I have been reading everything posted here even if I may not reply.
In fact I am always confused about this. I always love to learn more and the joy of reading great books, discovering or exploring new lands, coming upon new cultures and new people is boundless.
Ignorance keeps us in the dark and so many people were slaves since they never knew their rights and they underestimated themselves.
Ignorance keeps you in poverty and knowledge in prosperity.
I want the rest of people to revitalize this wonderful thread and share their opinions and views.
Brett Cottrell
11-02-2011, 01:06 PM
Ignorance isn't bliss. This is bliss.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AMLRa29zZu0/Ti-bGoUjTvI/AAAAAAAAAOI/K8Oql8p6nss/s1600/Tori-Amos-Bliss-145591.jpg
Ignorance isn't bliss. This is bliss.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AMLRa29zZu0/Ti-bGoUjTvI/AAAAAAAAAOI/K8Oql8p6nss/s1600/Tori-Amos-Bliss-145591.jpg
So engaging reply. This is indeed bliss since it is fulfilling. I second your thought unreservedly. If you one does not know the other as a friend, as a girlfriend or boyfriend or as someone other this and remains ignorant of all these things he loses the joy of it and of course the bliss
cafolini
11-02-2011, 03:49 PM
Let's look at ignorance as the act of ignoring, not lack of knowledge or education. I have never found more ingorance than among the educated. And the epidemy in that field were the ones with some philosophical straightjacket. I haven't found more suffering than among the philosophical of old age, refusing to recant a life of intellectual entanglement and subtle, refined, sophisticated prejudice.
Freudian Monkey
11-02-2011, 05:30 PM
Let's look at ignorance as the act of ignoring, not lack of knowledge or education. I have never found more ingorance than among the educated. And the epidemy in that field were the ones with some philosophical straightjacket. I haven't found more suffering than among the philosophical of old age, refusing to recant a life of intellectual entanglement and subtle, refined, sophisticated prejudice.
Interesting. A really fascinating perspective.
I guess when one has more knowledge of a certain concept, he has a more strict opinion concerning the nature of that concept. It really is difficult to keep an open mind toward ideas that are in conflict with the theories that one adobts through education. I'd still say that, ideally, an educated person should be able to make an objective judgement toward all information he meets. Unfortunately educated people often become arrogant and dismiss any information that is not in harmony with the knowledge they have adobted, as cafolini said. This arrogance is, without a doubt, ignorance.
Interesting. A really fascinating perspective.
I guess when one has more knowledge of a certain concept, he has a more strict opinion concerning the nature of that concept. It really is difficult to keep an open mind toward ideas that are in conflict with the theories that one adobts through education. I'd still say that, ideally, an educated person should be able to make an objective judgement toward all information he meets. Unfortunately educated people often become arrogant and dismiss any information that is not in harmony with the knowledge they have adobted, as cafolini said. This arrogance is, without a doubt, ignorance.
Well said. Yes, educated person should be able to make an objective judgment……..but many times it is not a case, isn't it?
I view it as a lack of critical thinking as well as not being open minded. Secondly, the educational system teaches us linear thinking, particularly, university where we have to master it. I tend to think that the natural way our minds work is holotropic but we lost this ability. I have to do more study but there are a few researchers who share the same opinion.
cafolini
11-02-2011, 06:45 PM
Well said. Yes, educated person should be able to make an objective judgment……..but many times it is not a case, isn't it?
I view it as a lack of critical thinking as well as not being open minded. Secondly, the educational system teaches us linear thinking, particularly, university where we have to master it. I tend to think that the natural way our minds work is holotropic but we lost this ability. I have to do more study but there are a few researchers who share the same opinion.
I think the problem is objectivism in many ways. If you think you see the way things work, the tendency is to ignore all other possibilities. Plus I have observed that people tend to find solace in method. Method is a companion of ignorance in solitude. Find a few good methods for a few good hobbies and you can escape into that place of lonely stability and ignorance of anything else that goes on outside your scope. Once the habits are formed, there is no getting out of the circular. Being open minded could become a result of tolerating without having to deal with anything that might bother you about the ways of the larger world of which you are a part. As a historian I have to say that most ages of involution and stagnation managed to maintain a middle class of relative objectivity and methodology.
I think the problem is objectivism in many ways. If you think you see the way things work, the tendency is to ignore all other possibilities. Plus I have observed that people tend to find solace in method. Method is a companion of ignorance in solitude. Find a few good methods for a few good hobbies and you can escape into that place of lonely stability and ignorance of anything else that goes on outside your scope. Once the habits are formed, there is no getting out of the circular. Being open minded could become a result of tolerating without having to deal with anything that might bother you about the ways of the larger world of which you are a part. As a historian I have to say that most ages of involution and stagnation managed to maintain a middle class of relative objectivity and methodology.
Hm…..I see it a different way. I don’t look for the answers, because when I look for the answer and accept a belief, I close my mind to find an alterative explanation. So, I constantly ask questions, seek, and search.
Secondly, as one of my professors said, “every theory is just an educated guesswork” It is very freeing, isn’t it? I question everything and I am comfortable doing it even though I had many times storm over my head for doing it. I also pay a careful attention when I become defensive. It is always a signal to look deeper and uncover beliefs that are blocks.
Finally, I see being open minded as being comfortable to challenge any belief I hold as truth. There are people who have a quite rigid belief system. From psychological point of view, psychologically healthy people have a flexible belief system. I have found it very freeing too. I wouldn’t say that a person is open minded who tolerates as you said, “ without having to deal with having to deal with anything that might bother you about the ways of the larger world of which you are a part” I would see it as an example of close minded person or a person who uses denial as a way of coping with uncomfortable reality. People are so unique and perceived ignorance may have different roots.
Mutatis-Mutandis
11-02-2011, 07:25 PM
And G L Wilson lives on. :lol:
cafolini
11-02-2011, 07:52 PM
Hm…..I see it a different way. I don’t look for the answers, because when I look for the answer and accept a belief, I close my mind to find an alterative explanation. So, I constantly ask questions, seek, and search.
Secondly, as one of my professors said, “every theory is just an educated guesswork” It is very freeing, isn’t it? I question everything and I am comfortable doing it even though I had many times storm over my head for doing it. I also pay a careful attention when I become defensive. It is always a signal to look deeper and uncover beliefs that are blocks.
Finally, I see being open minded as being comfortable to challenge any belief I hold as truth. There are people who have a quite rigid belief system. From psychological point of view, psychologically healthy people have a flexible belief system. I have found it very freeing too. I wouldn’t say that a person is open minded who tolerates as you said, “ without having to deal with having to deal with anything that might bother you about the ways of the larger world of which you are a part” I would see it as an example of close minded person or a person who uses denial as a way of coping with uncomfortable reality. People are so unique and perceived ignorance may have different roots.
I think you need to read Sam Harris to address those issues. They have very little to do with what I'm talking about.
Big Dante
11-02-2011, 10:57 PM
A lot of people I know strongly agree with this quote but I find myself quite against it. Being a college student I am surrounded by some who are quite ignorant. I will listen to them discuss their important party or the release of the new iphone 4 and these topics do truly facinate them. Their horizon doesn't expand much further than these topics however and while they may bring the person happiness, is that true happiness? Many would say yes which is completely fair. For the individual that may bring true happiness but with more awareness one can then question what true happiness is. When one reflects on life they can question what they want from it and what will bring them true happiness. I reflect quite often on life, death, suffering and the like and some may say that these thoughts are a burden and ignorance towards them is bliss. I however find it as a blessing as it has opened my awareness to what I want to achieve. I know that the iphone 4 or Friday night's party won't bring me true happiness so I know I can devote my time to the things in life that will. Learning music, writing, special people, dreams and goals that I would never have imagined remaining ignorant.
mo88dave
11-03-2011, 10:52 PM
hi there,
it depends on the situation on what ignorance is based..
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Brett Cottrell
11-03-2011, 11:20 PM
So engaging reply. This is indeed bliss since it is fulfilling. I second your thought unreservedly. If you one does not know the other as a friend, as a girlfriend or boyfriend or as someone other this and remains ignorant of all these things he loses the joy of it and of course the bliss
Uh, no. The Tori Amos song is called "Bliss."
YW1990
11-05-2011, 04:42 AM
Let's look at ignorance as the act of ignoring, not lack of knowledge or education. I have never found more ingorance than among the educated. And the epidemy in that field were the ones with some philosophical straightjacket. I haven't found more suffering than among the philosophical of old age, refusing to recant a life of intellectual entanglement and subtle, refined, sophisticated prejudice.
It's ironic isn't it that the most intellectually vested people seem to be the most ignorant of opposing arguments that threaten their personal viewpoints of the world? Shouldn't they be the most open minded people who are accepting and receptive of new information since that is what education is all about? Maybe we shouldn't endow these sorts of people with the term intellectual at all if they demonstrate these posits of ignorance.
There's a difference between sticking up for what you believe in and being downright pig headed about things.
I joined this forum to have my beliefs and thoughts challenged if it means that it will open up new and more justified ways of seeing certain things. It always hurts when people prove you wrong, but really it's for the best if it proves to you that you've been seeing things through a subjective framework that has the potential to be deceptive.
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