Meter

[prickly_pete]

Is meter something that really just takes a background seat to the sounds and images of a poem? I've read Poetic Designs a few times over and kind of get the feeling that meter gives a poem a kind of structuring principle, one that the poet adopts to sort of discipline his/her poem and give it some kind stability to the ear of the reader (if that makes sense).

Like, say we look at imabic pentameter and say "OK, this meter allows for more elaboration and deliberateness of thought than, say, tetrameter or trimeter." Is this is a principle that can be applied to all poems that use that meter or do different poets use meter for different purposes? In what sense can we say that two poets use the same meter for different purposes?

When I hear of a poet "stretching meter to its maximum potential" I'm completely lost. Just looking for some guidance as a sort of kick start...

Thanks

[JCamilo]

Is meter something that really just takes a background seat to the sounds and images of a poem? I've read Poetic Designs a few times over and kind of get the feeling that meter gives a poem a kind of structuring principle, one that the poet adopts to sort of discipline his/her poem and give it some kind stability to the ear of the reader (if that makes sense).

Like, say we look at imabic pentameter and say "OK, this meter allows for more elaboration and deliberateness of thought than, say, tetrameter or trimeter." Is this is a principle that can be applied to all poems that use that meter or do different poets use meter for different purposes? In what sense can we say that two poets use the same meter for different purposes?

When I hear of a poet "stretching meter to its maximum potential" I'm completely lost. Just looking for some guidance as a sort of kick start...

Thanks

Everything depends. Each poet, school or style has their purposes.
For example, traditional epic follow a pattern, it is often imitative. But Milton decided to not do it. He could probally, but it was an option related to his intention and the english language.

Some forms used to be only considered if they followed the metric, but it is gone. And of course, depends the poet. Borges, when got blind, moved from free verse to more traditional style. He said it was more natural to him, since he could not read but only listen to it.

Baudelaire is perhaps an interesting example, he is not a formalist, but Fleur's has traditional metric and formats, however, he often invert one or another element, as part of his rupture.

You can see Elizabeth Browning's Lady Geradline courtship - metre (not only this) was used by Poe's The Raven. I would say they may quality as the example you requested without being a satIre.

As if you first build the meter, what i have seen more often (which may be a natural answer in favour of the inspiratation, rather than technique) is that the ideas, theme, etc are created, written and the metter is polished afterwards and that the other order is often artificial.

[hillwalker]

Meter is a discipline that controls the rhythm of the poem when one reads it out loud, but it can be stretched and played with in the same way rhyme and language can.

If you're looking for a reader-friendly guide to how poems work metrically I can recommend 'The Ode Less Travelled' by Stephen Fry.

H

[prickly_pete]

Is the Fry book about scansion or is it how meter is adapted for purposes of effect and meaning? I mean, I understand that a poem needs some kind of formal structure to be a poem not only to discipline the poet to some degree but also as a sort of guide to the reader. But why do poets chose the meter they do and how can meter be "stretched" or "pushed to its limits" as it were?

Like, you mentioned Milton. He's using iambic pentameter. Surely he's not using it just so he can suprise the listener by throwing in a trochee at the beginning of some lines. Obviously there's something major I'm missing here.

[hillwalker]

The book discusses the various metric forms but also explains why each one came about and how that particular style came to be associated with a certain type of poetry.
It's informative but also witty in an intellectual sense.

H

[prickly_pete]

So how do you think the author would, or how would you, answer my question?

Take this for example:

Th' infernal Serpent; he it was whose guile,
Stirred up with envy and revenge, deceived
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels, by whose aid, aspiring
To set himself in glory above his peers,
He trusted to have equalled the Most High,
If he opposed, and with ambitious aim
Against the throne and monarchy of God,
Raised impious war in Heaven and battle proud,
With vain attempt. Him the Almighty Power
Hurled headlong flaming from th' ethereal sky,
With hideous ruin and combustion, down
To bottomless perdition, there to dwell
In adamantine chains and penal fire,
Who durst defy th' Omnipotent to arms.

Why wouldn't his purposes be better served by another meter? Why not just write in one continuous line like prose since, naturally I think, the reader is going to pick up a rythm from the natural stresses of the language anyways. Why write in iambic pentameter here? That's my question...

[hillwalker]

As you are probably well aware the iambic pentameter was the main form of verse from Chaucer's time to Shakespeare's and Milton's (and has survived beyond right up to the present day).

It became the accepted form of writing poetry, taking account of the rhythm of natural speech (particularly bearing in mind that much poetry was read out loud or learnt and recited from memory). At the same time there were numerous deviations explored to escape the rigidity of form without completely demolishing it.

As for the question - Why not write it out as a paragraph of prose? That would certainly make it more difficult to memorise, and would fail to display the poet's technical skill at distorting the original form to his own devices (often for a particular purpose - such as choosing masculine and feminine endings to make a particular point).

It's also probably a case that iambic pentameter was the norm when most of the greats were writing poetry - Old English or Anglo-Saxon verse was not written in such a disciplined pattern so it was probably seen as a refinement to have strict meter and line lengths. And, of course, poetry has moved on since those days though the same principles apply and many still prefer a strict format on which to build their poems.

H

[JCamilo]

Prose writting was not usual for great writters then, much less for epic. You had to use poetry. Milton's metric was somehow turning in english tradition, because the flow in english language. It had roots on Marlowe, Shakespeare, etc. All Milton's references. It is a sense of belonging, also of afirmation, he is writting to access their quality, status, etc. Plus,the reader of that time would reckonize the quality more easy under this pattern.

Try to imagine someone on classical age finding Buttler's versions of Homer. They would deny it.

[JCamilo]

Yes, like any age, style, poet, has his incentive. Would Neruda's odes ever be accepted as Odes until XVIII century? No, but his link to Walt Whitman gave him the license to break down the format and still call it ode without causing any sense of strangeness (or rather, any negative sense of strangeness. Milton do one step by defending the use of english metric for a epic dialogue, which was usually latine. He gives Spencer a nod and move foward. It is his "message".

[prickly_pete]

Thanks for the imput everyone. So far all I gather is that a particular meter is just picked up because it's customary for that time period. Might be true, but I'm more concerned with how meter is "stretched" by a poet. Like, how did Militon use meter in Paradise Lost to - or in the passage I highlighted above - for his own purposes. I mean, I get that it was taken up because it was customary for that time period...but how was it used?

[JCamilo]

Not just time period, but also with whom he is keeping dialogue.

Anyways, what do you mean? How this kind metter allow a rethorical construction suited for the dialogues of the characters and also flow in narrative? The strength of Paradise lost is in the dialogue, it is the how you mention?

[YesNo]

Why wouldn't his purposes be better served by another meter? Why not just write in one continuous line like prose since, naturally I think, the reader is going to pick up a rythm from the natural stresses of the language anyways. Why write in iambic pentameter here? That's my question...
I don't think well-constructed metrical poetry needs line breaks. One can pick up where the line ends by listening to the poem being read. If it is un-rhymed verse one can just decide on 4-6 accented syllables for the line length. If it is rhymed the rhyme usually marks the end of the line.

Non-metrical poetry, on the other hand, uses line breaks so the reader knows that the text is a poem rather than something else. It would rely on the visual effect of line breaks more.

It is an interesting exercise to take a poem (especially one that one doesn't particularly like), copy it into a grammar checking editor, remove all line breaks, initial caps and other weird punctuation and see what the editor says about it. A good poem should have no grammatical errors, at least, "good" by my standards.

I personally prefer the sound of the rhymed tetrameter line over that of the rhymed or blank pentameter line. This line containing 4 beats is also close to the alliterative Old English meter (like that used in Beowulf) which did not rhyme, but used plenty of formal alliteration on the accented syllables.

However, I suspect Milton used pentameter because those reading it at the time expected him to do so.

[JCamilo]

This is wrong. Rhymes will only indicate the end of a line, if they are end rhymes. If someone uses internal rhymes, middle rhymes, double rhymes, etc, you will get lost unless someone pauses indicating the line breaker - which is in the end why lines breakers came - to indicate a pause. Not that was a poem, even because rhymes are not determining elements of poetry.

(and non-metrical means witout metre not without rhymes, you can have metrial poetry with rhymes and non-metrical with rhymes)