What's the Relation Between Ballads and Poetry?

[prickly_pete]

My homesickness sort of spurned me into taking an interest in the cultural history of New England a few years ago and eventually this brought me across alot of folklore - specifically folk ballads. Lumber jack songs, sea-shanties - that sort of thing - so I started branching out. Got into the Childs collection and loved that.

Originallly I was reading for historical value but found myself reading them for sheer pleasure, or what I guess you might call, the emotive value of these poems. Somewhere along the line it occured to me that if I enjoy this I should try the 'great works' as well - though there's a high possibility that these feelings could be complete bull**** since I never really was a big fan of reading things just because they're on some "Great Books" list. Though I suppose there is some value in having a shared cultural dialogue of sorts, but really I'm getting off track here.

At any rate I'm trying to become a more serious reader and if that involves branching out the more the better. I've read a little bit of literary theory (Bakhtin, Frye, Kristeva, Bultmann though this might be more theology I suppose) but I honestly don't see how this would help with poetry. I picked up Adams' "Poetic Designs" in an attempt to sort of get an idea what I should be looking for. Indeed it is very helpful in identifying scansion - which I was only vaguely conscious of before - and that sort of thing, but I still feel a bit overwhelmed - as I'm more familiar with ballads and song than actual poetry - and maybe just completely lost outright. Wondering whats the next step. I'm still going to use the Adams text in the future since it is really helpful, but what next...

So I thought it might help if I got a text on ballad or lyric poetry. I think as a starting point, on this little poetry excursion of mine, it might help if I could put the Adams material in the context of what I'm already familiar with. Like, maybe if we could even just discuss how ballads are 'like' or relation to poetry that might help.

Say for instance, how is "Ballad of Sir Patrick Spense" like, say, "Kubla Khan" or "Ode on a Grecian Urn". I'm just having trouble connecting the two and it might just be helpful to talk...

[JCamilo]

Ballads is a poetic formatic, simple because poetry must work in papper as if it is said, because it was oral and written when it began. They have similar formal aspects and usually a narrative form. Kubla Khan is a special poem, because works more from the legend of its composition (Coleridge dream), the Grecian Urn is a ode, also another form that iminate a musical format but it is more lyrical. Also, Keat Ode is meant to be read under the light of his other lights, letters and aesthetical ideas of romantic age.

Maybe from Keats, you could try La Belle Dame Sans Merci, not only there is a poem from XII century as you can find similar themes in some folk songs like Thomas the Rhymer or Tam-lin. I would suggest The Rhyme of Ancient Marineer, but it is length is a problem. Dont worrty with formal or aesthetical problems reggarding the poems, if your idea is to develop liking for reading, try it first. Analise came afterwards.

[prickly_pete]

Thanks for the reply,

I already enjoy reading and honestly have proabably read just about all if not most of the poems that are considered canonical in the Western Tradition so I'm not really looking for a book recommendation. To be honest with you I'm not particularly worried about whether I'll ever be able to quote Shakespeare ;)

More looking to get a more mature grasp of what I already enjoy reading. This could be done with a textbook, possibly, but I thought it might be important to it down and really get intimate with poetry more generally - sort of understanding a ballad by what it isn't kind of deal - to dig beneath the surface of what I'm reading now and then possibly branch out.

[Delta40]

What an interesting question! I have not thought about it before. I have a very tattered book of Scottish Ballads. All of them appear to be a folklore tale handed down through the generations and even added onto as they went along. I assumed they are there to be sung in gatherings but I could most definitely be wrong. I have only linked them to poetry in the sense of a sub genre evolved from earlier times where balladry was a popular form of expression and entertainment in the community. I don't actually know that either but I can tell you each time I open the earworn cover, I am transported back in time, where feudal systems were rife and I am pleasantly lost!

I doubt this answers your question but I so wanted to say how ballads affect me!

[prickly_pete]

I doubt this answers your question but I so wanted to say how ballads affect me!

I can dig it. The deal is I was thinking of possibly majoring in English but that would be a ways down the road still so I've got some time to get a feel what a career in English would be like.

The thing is, I get the feeling alot of people go into English because they're not really sure what else they should be majoring in. They're like, "Hey, I like reading so I'll major in English." I would fall into that category myself, but like I said, I've got awhile to sort of explore whats out there and get an idea of what I should know going in. I want to go in confident in my abilities as a reader and I'm just not there yet.

I figured that I should start with what I enjoy and then work from there. In other words I want to know if there's anything in studying the ballad and folk history that could be applied to English literature more generally. How would I begin studying ballad as I haven't even really begun to do that yet? And would this be an adequate preparation to begin possibly studying other things? What's the scholarship on this subject?

Like I said, I don't at all feel as though I should have to be reading "Classics" as it were, but as this is what English curriculum is based on I want to be prepared - if I go that route as it were. How could I translate my interest in one area into that encompasses other areas and other traditions?

[OrphanPip]

Hmm, maybe reading Coleridge's Biographia Literaria, where he discusses his and his contemporaries poetics. It might help you appreciate at least what Coleridge is attempting to do with the ballad form. (the "willing suspension of disbelief" being the most important concept from the work)

There is also Wordsworth's preface to the Lyrical Ballads, that is mostly an aesthetic tract but might give you something to think about. It's a fairly short read as well.

[JCamilo]

Yes, but they are not traditional ballads, it is not easy to see on Wordsworth the links with ballads.

Pete, my suggestions are less what you should read. It is your last question. If you seek the conection between other examples, you my find it.

[prickly_pete]

Hmm, maybe reading Coleridge's Biographia Literaria, where he discusses his and his contemporaries poetics. It might help you appreciate at least what Coleridge is attempting to do with the ballad form. (the "willing suspension of disbelief" being the most important concept from the work)

Thanks for the recommendation. As a prospective English major I should probably take a look at it regardless.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I do occassionally read poetry as well. I'm just saying I had a particular interest in the ballad for historical purposes but kind of stuck with it after I discovered the vast amount of material out there dedicated to this particular form. I would say I need more discipline as a reader though - of poetry especially. I tend to look at poetry as a kind of game if you will. It takes re-reading after re-reading and eventually you start to notice patterns and can begin putting the pieces together in some way (if that makes any sense). Less about what is 'happening' than how it's being said I suppose. I understand very little I would say on first readings which is why really long poems, say, Paradise Lost, are kind of beyond my reach right now if for no other reasons than time.

Some of the stuff thats a little bit further out there - like Kubla Khan as I mentioned before - I can start to get after continuous re-reading but its definitely a challenge even still. Anyone else go about things like this? I've been browsing some of the posts on these boards and there are some intelligent people here. Like, really intelligent. So I thought I could get a better grasp of what I want to accomplished if I got some feedback from more advanced readers.

I guess a more appropriate question would be how do you approach a poem? Do you approach it like, say, a puzzle - something that needs to be pieced together? Do you take notes? Do you check the secondary literature?

I really wanna give this a shot so just any input would be greatly appreciated here.

[JCamilo]

Kublai Khan is very interesting, If you like it, Pip's suggestion of good. Because the poem gets better when Coleridge explains how he "imagined" it. Then you can compare with Poe's Methology of Composition and maybe find Borges essay about it also. Very good, material here.

[prickly_pete]

Which Borges essay are you talking about?

[G L Wilson]

A balladeer sings to the soul, a poet speaks of love and other things.

[JCamilo]

Which Borges essay are you talking about?

I suppose the english title is "The Dream of COleridge".

[Eiseabhal]

Ballads were made to be sung. Although Coleridge used to recite Kubla Khan as a party piece it is very different from a ballad. Ballads usually have four line stanzas and very basic rhythmic structures (There are some that break that generalisation) Ballads tend to compress time, tell a story, use an omniscient narrator, deal with dramatic human emotions and use stereotypical motifs. There are modern ballads which fit most of these rules.