Before

[Bar22do]

Words withdraw as we absorb each other;
our limbs shape new alphabets in the far reaches
of primeval instincts. Fast ships
sailing the tribes of sanguine orange dreams,
we braid delights, and it is one body
that answers the riddle of touch. We hurry,

save on smiles and stares,
to brush against ineffable time’s rim -

dawn occurs at your chest
flooded with my flaming red hair;
in solar joys, beloved, we reawake
our uncontested beauty
citrus flavored, in rapture of sage,
rosemary and thyme - before

abhorred Eris hurls through us her golden apple and
thoughts without heaven catch hold of our tongues.

[WolfLarsen]

I like this poem. However, I would like to see more passion. I liked: Orange dreams, the ending, the fact you don't know what's gonna come next.

[hillwalker]

There are many wonderful phrases in this piece - and for such a familiar topic you shed new light on it.

H

[Bar22do]

Thank you Wolflarsen (I thought that "Fast ships sailing the tribes of sanguine orange dreams, we braid delights,..." was all passion!) and Hill for your kind feedbacks.

Best to you both, Bar

[Hawkman]

This is definitely one of your most atmospheric poems and artfully romantic. It communicates longing and regret in that sense very effectively. I personally find the language and expression quite beautiful.

However, there are some technical issues in the post. The opening Before: is this supposed to be part of the poem or the title? As part of the poem it doesn’t really work on its own, isolated as it is from the beginning of “Words.” It would work as the opening of the first stanza though.

Dawn should be capitalised, and this strophe has some unsympathetic line breaks (the in at the end of the line pulls one up a bit) and, I feel, some missing punctuation:

“Dawn occurs at your chest
flooded with my flaming red hair;
in solar joys, beloved, we spring up
in uncontested beauty, citrus flavoured,
in rapture of sage, rosemary and thyme, before”

might be better in terms of reading, but it gives you a column of ‘in’s.

This could be remedied, if it needs remedying, by saying:
“with solar joy”
“in uncontested beauty,”
“a rapture of sage,”

The list of herbs, immediately and superficially, seems to reference, “Scarborough Fair”, which is distracting. It is possible to interpret this strophe as a description of two people who spring up in the morning, having been making love all night, in an orange grove, to the music of Simon and Garfunkle.

Somehow, I don’t think this is what you intended, but of course, I may be wrong :)

With deeper reading one comes to more symbolism, with sage – wisdom, rosemary – remembrance, and thyme meaning time. I wonder if changing the order of the list of herbs would help with muting the resonance of the song. But then again, the song is traditionally about a pair of lovers setting each other impossible tasks before they will consider reunion. The layers of meaning here are labyrinthine.

They are neatly rounded off with the reference to the apple of discord and the plea of before, its plangent echo fading into silence.

Thanks for sharing this.

Live and be well - H

[Bar22do]

Thank you Hawkman for your helpful comment, though in the meantime I've already posted a revision, so I'm afraid you'll have to go over it again (that is, if you wish me to be perfect :) )... as for the herbs, you are brushing against their raison d'être in the poem, bravo. I don't know what's Scarborough Fair, I'm afraid.
Best from Bar

P.S. The title is not a part of the poem here though it's not a bad idea. Plus I keep tinkering (your mentioned lines breaks)...;

[Hawkman]

I'd leave it alone now - it works :)

for Scarborough fair lyrics:

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/simon+and+garfunkel/scarborough+fair_20124689.html

best, H

[Bar22do]

hmm, amazing, the same order... if I knew (ah, pitfalls of the ignoramus!) I'd have pondered mint and coriander symbolism!

Thanks for the link.

[Alexander III]

I can't comment much on it as I have not criticisms of it, I loved it!

[tailor STATELY]

Incredible poem Bar22do.

I liked it before your revisions (excellent critique Hawkman); and after = sublime.

With respect,
tailor STATELY

[deryk]

You certainly have a penchant for seascapes and colors Mr. Bar. :)
I found it to be very passionate and exciting even. The only quibble I could muster against this piece is with the selection "flaming red hair" which seemed strikingly cliche, HOWEVER, once I found "solar joys" waiting for me on the next line, I knew it was the logical choice. Very invigorating!

[jajdude]

I wasn't so keen on the beginning of your poem dear Bardo, but you had me at

"the riddle of touch"

beautiful phrase

[Bar22do]

Thank you AlexanderIII, Stately, deryk and jajdude for your encouraging words. I'm glad jajdude you've found at least one beautiful phrase in my effort! :) and deryk that you've identified what can absolve me for "my flaming red" cliché! Best of all to you Bar

[AuntShecky]

Initially, I couldn't make head nor tail from this and originally shared Hawk's misgivings about the title. Ironically, enough the word "before" got me thinking about the possibilities of the setting of this piece-- "before" what?

Possibilities (sheer speculation on the part of yours fooly):
--before the dawn of civilization ("prehistoric")
--before the Trojan War
--before The Fall ("prelapsarian.")

The allusion to Eris made me think of the single event that sparked the Trojan War (similar to Archduke's assassination precipitation WWI, for instance) and the numerous warm/hot color images in your poem (red-haired, orange, etc.--all "hot" colors. If you look at web postings about the dwarf planet named "Eris," discovered less than 10 years ago, you'll see that the picture of that heavenly body is within the spectrum of colors mentioned in your poem.

Another word in your that suggests ruddiness in color (also warmth) is sanguine;one of the four humours, "sanguine" has to do with blood. But people with "sanguine" personalities are "warm" in the sense of genial, optimistic, good-natured, quite the opposite of the hot-headed goddess Eris with a short-trigger temper. The Latin cognate of her name is "discordia."

So there is much tension in your poem, a war, so to speak, between forces of love and the forces of bitterness. If I got the myth right, Eris got mad when she wasn't invited to the aforementioned wedding, showed up anyway, and quite unlike a bride's throwing the bouquet in modern day weddings, Eris threw the "Apple of Discord" into the midst, which evidently led to the Trojan War, as the apple sparked the rivalry among Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite over who was the most beautiful (or in today's slang, "hottest,")--a feminine rivalry that echoes throughout culture down through the ages --the "Snow White" fairy tale makes a big deal out of who is "the fairest in the land." which evidently led to the Trojan War.

What a potent symbol an "apple" is-- golden or otherwise. Somehow its significance has been branded into our collective consciousness (Hello, Jung Lovers!) A poisoned apple also is a plot point in the aforementioned Snow White, but even more importantly for the history of civilization -- the very first story in the Judeo-Christian Bible.

There is an allusion to the Garden of Eden in the very first part of your piece, with the reference to "alphabetizing," just as Adam and Eve "named" the animals, an incident beautifully depicted both in Milton's Paradise Lost and a gorgeous sonnet by Robert Frost: "Never Again Would Birds' Songs Be the Same."

Of course, your piece works on the gut level, as an expression of love between two people. I was going to say your poem could have been what Thetis and Peleus recited at their wedding, if they'd written their own vows, but I read where it was a "forced" marriage.

As you can see, this current piece, as so many of your works, is packed with cultural references and allusions, even if you didn't (consciously) intend them ---

then again, maybe it just means your old Auntie doesn't get out of the house much!

[Bar22do]

Auntie, your culture won't cease to amaze me! As for this poem, it must have taken from some of what you have mentioned, partly unconsciously.
At its core is an ardent attempt at fusion/timelessness of two people in love, who nevertheless intuit their aspiration is vain and Discordia's evil doings will eventually breach between them.
Thank you Auntie for your usual detailed reading!
Warm regards, Bar

[hallaig]

Too wordy in bits, which diverts the attention away from some good imagery. For instance 'our limbs shape new alphabets' is really good, but it's impact is lessened by the absolutely unecessary 'in the far reaches of primeval instincts'
How do 'fast ships sail....tribes?' Doesn't make sense to me
Lines 'we braid....smiles and stares' are good.
'ineffable time's rim' seems archaic daftness to me, as does the section in itallics, as does the entrance of Discordia at the end.

I think what I'm trying to say is that if you root yourself in the here and now and don't wrap your experience in mythologiocal flapdoodle and what you see as 'poetic' language, it would be a lot better

[Bar22do]

Thanks for your comment. 'in the far reaches of primeval instincts' is there for a reason. 'Fast ships sailing etc' are the two lovers and the right question would be "who" and not "how". For the rest, it's a question of taste and therefore relative.
I'm glad you have found something likeable here after all and agree a revision could improve my effort, which I might do one day. Best to you, Bar

[hallaig]

Of course. Hope you haven't taken any offence, because none was intended at all. I think the mystical trappings interfere with otherwise acute use of language, but it's a purely personal opinion.

[blank|verse]

Quite an ambitious poem on a notoriously difficult topic, this one, bar. It reminded me of Michael Donaghy's 'Pentecost', particularly the vivid opening expressing how the language of sex differs from other speech:

Words withdraw as we absorb each other;
and the stronger moment are those that are more simple and straightforward, including the italicised section.

But I'm in some agreement with others in thinking the rest of it becomes too abstract. I don't really understand the 'Fast ships | sailing the tribes of sanguine orange dreams'; and I wasn't keen on the archaic, pre-modified nouns like:

ineffable time’s rim
abhorred Eris
And, I too was reminded of 'Scarborough Fair' by the herb references, or Ophelia in her madness from Hamlet. But, as usual, there's a lot of thought and imagination gone into the writing of this poem.

[everyadventure]

The limbs shaping alphabets and "braiding" were stand-out. Lovely.

[Bar22do]

ea, thanks for what you found was lovely in this poem. B/V thanks as always for pointing out strengths and weaknesses of my effort.
No offense, hallaig, I'm learning from the reactions, though of course better so if they're constructive.

Best to you all, Bar

I tinkered it a bit in the meantime if you care to read:

//revision withdrawn till "repaired"! :smile5: //

[hillwalker]

In my experience one can sometimes tinker too much... personally I find mark II a much inferior model. Without being too harsh I think you have stripped it down too much and rebuilt on much shakier ground.

The longer, elegant opening lines of the original have been replaced by what could almost be mistaken as prose. And the awkward rhyme 'away' and 'clay' is an unwelcome distraction rather than an engaging poetic device.
Why 'flee away' anyway? Where else can one flee to?

Similarly, cutting so much to the bone has backfired with the 'Eris hurls at us her curse' line - it's such an alliterative mouthful.

'Before' or 'After' - I would stick with 'Before'

H

[hallaig]

I like this better though you've diluted one of your best images. I thought 'our limbs shape new alphabets' was quite beautiful. Agree that you should dispose of clay. You've got a strange dichotomy now, though, between the plain spoken north and the mythological south of your poem. Personally speaking, if the poem ended at 'only greedy to share in sheer being' it would be more coherent, though obviously you want to put in the second section for the counterpoise.

[Bar22do]

Thanks hill and hall and also hawk (for your supportive pm). I withdraw the revision for now until I have some time to work on it and then post again. Best to you from Bar!

[Jerrybaldy]

I enjoyed it Bar. To be honest as we have history I sometimes find your writing safe with no boundary left broken and with a moral undertone. For all that you have a poetic voice I am in no position to deny and hopefully all sorts are welcome here. I enjoyed it Bar.
You are a poet.

[Bar22do]

I'm glad you enjoyed this one, thanks for your critique, Jerrybaldy.
Best from Bar