to experience Whitman as a non-American

[Silvia]

I’m attending this course, American Culture and Anthropology. Last week we read some poems by Walt Whitman and listened to some on youtube. I totally loved them, Song of Myself in particular. I was moved, and so in tune with the reading that I became almost unconscious of other people. But, at the same time, I don’t feel entitled to this feeling, I don’t understand it, because I’m Italian and Whitman is THE American Bard, the most American of all poets. I might be wrong, but it’s not like reading Goethe and appreciate him, or reading Kafka and love him. I do read and like both of them. With Whitman, you feel that he is a property owned by Americans, locked in a box only Americans can open. Maybe I’m just swayed by the notion of Whitman as the pillar of American Literature. Anyway, it was a strange feeling. Somehow, I see this experience as a sort of challenge to my identity, because, when we read those poems, my heart was overflowing with true passion and pride. So, since on this forum there are people from all over the world, I thought I could share this and ask whether something similar has ever happened to you.

[PeterL]

As an American, I do not think much of Whitman. If you do, that's your business. He was outside the mainstream of American literature, and he had little influence on later literature with the exception of poetry. If you want to read good American poetry, then try E. A. Poe's poetry or Emily Dickinson's work. Those two were much better than Whitman.

If you want some great writing, then read Umberto Eco's works, especially Foucault's Pendulum.

[YesNo]

As an American, I do not think much of Whitman. If you do, that's your business. He was outside the mainstream of American literature, and he had little influence on later literature with the exception of poetry. If you want to read good American poetry, then try E. A. Poe's poetry or Emily Dickinson's work. Those two were much better than Whitman.

If you want some great writing, then read Umberto Eco's works, especially Foucault's Pendulum.
I do remember "O Captain, My Captain", but in general agree that I'd prefer reading Poe or Dickinson to Whitman. I wonder if that means anything?

I was also born in the USA, but there are likely many born here who would disagree with me.

[JCamilo]

I would agree Poe could be more american, than Withiman, but better... that is very arguable.

Anyways, Silvia, Whitman is not so american. His main followers are not even americans, but latin-americans (Jorge Luis Borges, Ruben Dario, Neruda, Drummond) or portuguese (Pessoa), they adopted his style, even his song of my self to themselves. Fact is, much of American expansive spirit is in Whitman, so, you can relate with him as much you can relate to italian medieval Dante.

[The Comedian]

Whitman is amazing and, with a few arguable alternatives, the best poet America ever produced. What makes him great is what makes most of the best great: originality, rhythm, spirit, wit, and a human understanding that only few poets can match. His "American-ness" is only a small part of what makes him a worthwhile read. As JCamilo noted, you certainly don't have to be American to enjoy Whitman, just as you don't have to be Russian to value Tolstoy or French to value Rimbaud.

[stlukesguild]

As an American, I do not think much of Whitman. If you do, that's your business. He was outside the mainstream of American literature, and he had little influence on later literature with the exception of poetry. If you want to read good American poetry, then try E. A. Poe's poetry or Emily Dickinson's work. Those two were much better than Whitman.

Peter, you're talking out of your posterior again. First of all, Whitman is far from outside the mainstream or a minor writer. With the possible exception of T.S. Eliot he was probably the most important and influential figure in American poetry and one of the 3 or so most influential figures in the whole of American literature. He was a major influence on poetry and literature in general in Europe, the United States, and Latin America. Fernando Pessoa, Federico Garcia Lorca, Pablo Neruda, Eugenio Montale, T.S. Eliot, Hart Crane, Ezra Pound, Octavio Paz, Alan Ginsberg, etc... are among the major poets greatly indebted to Whitman.

The statement that "Whitman had little influence on later literature with the exception of poetry" is simply retarded. You might as well say that "Verdi had little influence on later music with the exception of opera." Poetry, by the way, at least from what I can tell, is part of literature... an important part of literature... and by some standards, the most important part of literature.

As for looking elsewhere within the American canon for good poetry, no one is more central to the American canon that Whitman. Dickinson is great... perhaps even a rival of sorts, but she lacks the centrality and impact of Whitman upon later poets and in no way does she come near to what Whitman achieved in establishing a unique American voice in poetry. Poe, by comparison, is laughable... and I say this as one who feels that Poe... especially the short story writer... is grossly underrated by many American critics. How many poems of real merit did Poe write? 4 or 5? Taking up what... maybe 3 or 4 pages. This does not make one a major poet.

As for Umberto Eco... considering that Silvia is an Italian I somewhat suspect that she is already aware of Eco... and quite likely she recognizes that there are far greater Italian writers than Eco to be found including Cavalcanti, Dante, Petrarch, Boccaccio, Leopardi, Montale, Landolfi, and Italo Calvino.

[Silvia]

Whitman is amazing and, with a few arguable alternatives, the best poet America ever produced. What makes him great is what makes most of the best great: originality, rhythm, spirit, wit, and a human understanding that only few poets can match. His "American-ness" is only a small part of what makes him a worthwhile read. As JCamilo noted, you certainly don't have to be American to enjoy Whitman, just as you don't have to be Russian to value Tolstoy or French to value Rimbaud.
I see what you mean. I made a similar example when I said that I enjoy Goethe, even though he's German. But, to me, Whitman is quite a different story.
When he writes of grass, you know it's American grass, when he writes of mothers' laps and children and old people, you know they're American mothers and children and old people. And then there's Trascendentalism, which was the first American independent intellectual-philosophical movement and what made it possible for the New World to free itself from its dependence on European culture and tradition. I don't know, maybe it's just me, swayed as I am by all these things I've been told about Whitman, but I can't help feeling as if I shouldn't relate to his poems, merely because it's not me he's addressing. I can relate to Goethe's Prometheus without these kind of problems. Why is that?
As for Whitman's influence, I agree with you and stlukesguild. I'm sure he's a great influence on American Literature and Culture in general (there's even a levi's commercial with one of his poems), not only because that's what I've been told, but because I can read this influence. The Beats were greatly influenced by Whitman, just to give an example.
Funny some mentioned Poe, since the author we dealt with after Whitman was William Carlos Williams (influenced by Whitman as well), who wrote an essay on Poe, trying to reaffirm the American-ness of an author often perceived as a European (I haven't read it yet, though).


As for Umberto Eco... considering that Silvia is an Italian I somewhat suspect that she is already aware of Eco... and quite likely she recognizes that there are far greater Italian writers than Eco to be found including Cavalcanti, Dante, Petrarch, Boccaccio, Leopardi, Montale, Landolfi, and Italo Calvino.
Even though I'm Italian, I haven't read anything by Umberto Eco yet, but I get to study him a lot for my Semiotics Exam.

[JBI]

I do remember "O Captain, My Captain", but in general agree that I'd prefer reading Poe or Dickinson to Whitman. I wonder if that means anything?

I was also born in the USA, but there are likely many born here who would disagree with me.

Well, the one poem you do remember happens to be the one taught in most schools, and one of his worst ones (also, coincidentally, not liked by the poet himself). It's popularity arguably stems in part from its historical context, and not its poetics, as well as its presence in film. Still, Song of Myself is so central to American thought, so creative in its construction of the Frontier myth (basically taking history and fiction and driving it deep into the poetics) that I would say it anticipates everything of American culture up until mass immigrant writing, and still holds the traditions of American thought in its grasp, things which have not particularly changed.


To limit his scope to literature, and narrowly poetics is like to limit the thong as just to influencing underwear and not to society.

[JCamilo]

I see what you mean. I made a similar example when I said that I enjoy Goethe, even though he's German. But, to me, Whitman is quite a different story.

Everyone is a nation after all. Goethe's society is German, he was part of German early nationalism (which helped him to dismiss it with more class), but if you think Goethe, we can imagine Dante (so italian), Virgil (so roman) and also sometimes remember Whitman wrote for all world, his message was pretty much americans for all.

But he has enough international spirit to be adopted by a communist like Neruda as model. I am not american, I read Whitman without problem, there is a spirit of joy on his poems, short like a poet in constant orgasm (even when the theme is not a celebration, like Oh, Captain) which make me recall less intelectual poets, a quixotic character, some popular tavern like poems are like this.


When he writes of grass, you know it's American grass, when he writes of mothers' laps and children and old people, you know they're American mothers and children and old people. And then there's Trascendentalism, which was the first American independent intellectual-philosophical movement and what made it possible for the New World to free itself from its dependence on European culture and tradition. I don't know, maybe it's just me, swayed as I am by all these things I've been told about Whitman, but I can't help feeling as if I shouldn't relate to his poems, merely because it's not me he's addressing. I can relate to Goethe's Prometheus without these kind of problems. Why is that?

But American trascendentalism has european roots, Emerson for example, was in constant dialogue with Carlyle. I think the question is more why you related more to Goethe than Whitman, not to Germany (or absence of it) than America. Anyways, Whitman is short of a modern "nationalistic" epic, he should be in same room of guys like Victor Hugo - so french, so worldy - Camoes, Tolstoy, not Goethe, as said, someone which idea of literature was the absence of nations.


As for Whitman's influence, I agree with you and stlukesguild. I'm sure he's a great influence on American Literature and Culture in general (there's even a levi's commercial with one of his poems), not only because that's what I've been told, but because I can read this influence. The Beats were greatly influenced by Whitman, just to give an example.
Funny some mentioned Poe, since the author we dealt with after Whitman was William Carlos Williams (influenced by Whitman as well), who wrote an essay on Poe, trying to reaffirm the American-ness of an author often perceived as a European (I haven't read it yet, though).

The problem of America and Poe. Their Shakespeare.

[stlukesguild]

O Captain My Captain was popular far before The Dead Poet's Society. Indeed, it was incredibly popular during Whitman's own lifespan... and it seems to be the popularity of this work... quite removed from his usual and less traditional poems... that Whitman disliked... not the poem, per se. Indeed, he was very particular when it came to publications of the poem, demanding correct spelling and punctuation. Why is it one of Whitman's worst poems? Few others would seem to have suggested as much. This would seem to be another instance of JBI stating his personal preferences (often clouded by nationalism) as fact.

[Silvia]

But American trascendentalism has european roots, Emerson for example, was in constant dialogue with Carlyle. I think the question is more why you related more to Goethe than Whitman, not to Germany (or absence of it) than America. Anyways, Whitman is short of a modern "nationalistic" epic, he should be in same room of guys like Victor Hugo - so french, so worldy - Camoes, Tolstoy, not Goethe, as said, someone which idea of literature was the absence of nations.
I don't think that's Goethe's idea of literature. It's true that he was suspicious of patriotism and that he resisted the label of "national poet", nonetheless, he was proud of being German. His idea of Weltliteratur, far from being a literature in absence of nation, was that of a literature enriched by nations, by a continuous confrontation with the "other". This explains his fascination with the translations of his works, for example, and the fact that he considered Manzoni (Italian) and Byron (English) as his heirs.
Anyway, when I used Goethe for my example, I was not thinking of all these implications, I just wrote down the name of the first German author (and probably the most representative) that came to my mind. I realise that every poet belongs somewhere and that the environment he grows up into shapes his mind and rhyme, but with Whitman it seems to me that he is so connected with his environment that his poetry becomes almost inaccessible to a foreigner. If I said, "Viva Italia!", what would you feel? Would you be moved? Maybe you would. I guess you could identify with the way I feel about Italy, but in a different way. You wouldn't be moved the way an Italian would, with the same streght and passion. That's how I feel about Walt Whitman. It doesn't happen with other authors.

[JCamilo]

Like I said, the most powerful followers of Whitman are not north-americans. Borges, Neruda, Ruben Dario, Fernando Pessoa are all Whitmanians and they have sometimes little to do with the american's philosophy of Whitman. Borges is an elitist with no liking for masses and democracy, Neruda a communist, Pessoa an individualist, well, Ruben Dario in a way a bolivarist, which may be closer to Whitman. They all conected with Whitman, specific points of Whitman, and went away. They are not americans.

In many aspects, I know a person who recites Oh Captain from heart. He is not north-american, he does not care about any american president, yet he is moved by it. I remember a research that people from outside france is moved by Marselleise. The most popular club in the world (football) is Barcelona, a nationalistic club. I am not moved by Viva Italia (I am moved by Dante however) but then I am not moved by Brazilian national symbols. So I am a bad example :)

Anyways, my point is not discuss how you would feel. Just to point that Whitman is as much american as Goethe was german and yet both are international, as his influence spread on the most unlikely fashions. I would suggest you to see Neruda, Pessoa, Dario, maybe Borges. Maybe you will conect to one of those and then you can have another perspective about Whitman (I fully admit it is possible to not feel anything for Whitman due his americaness and also, that you may know them already, of course.)

[JBI]

O Captain My Captain was popular far before The Dead Poet's Society. Indeed, it was incredibly popular during Whitman's own lifespan... and it seems to be the popularity of this work... quite removed from his usual and less traditional poems... that Whitman disliked... not the poem, per se. Indeed, he was very particular when it came to publications of the poem, demanding correct spelling and punctuation. Why is it one of Whitman's worst poems? Few others would seem to have suggested as much. This would seem to be another instance of JBI stating his personal preferences (often clouded by nationalism) as fact.

This isn't politically motivated at all. If I wanted to rant about politics or whatever, Whitman's other poems provide a plethora of racism and jingoism, but quite frankly, that is his poetic Shtick, and I find it interesting, and admire him as a poet.

However, this poem is so mediocre, so simple, so repetitive, it lacks the energy and power that Whitman created in his real masterpieces. Yet, it persists as his most popular poem, since it is the only one that is incredibly simple to interpret, yet makes people feel clever when they realize "he means Lincoln, oh my!".

[mortalterror]

However, this poem is so mediocre, so simple, so repetitive, it lacks the energy and power that Whitman created in his real masterpieces. Yet, it persists as his most popular poem, since it is the only one that is incredibly simple to interpret, yet makes people feel clever when they realize "he means Lincoln, oh my!".

That, or it's only 24 lines long and easily discussable in a regular class hour. It's kind of hard to discuss Song of Myself, a 1300 line poem, in an equivalent time frame.

[missmeadowsweet]

I have lived in the USA my entire life, and definitely consider myself an American, and I have been moved by Whitman's poetry, as you said you were, Silvia. There is something very simply powerful about "Song of Myself" especially.

I find it fascinating to hear your perspective on Whitman, as someone who is not from America. I have felt something similiar with Robbie Burns of Scotland, almost like I wish I could claim him in my heritage. There have probably been other poets and authors which have occasioned this feeling for me as well.

[conartist]

I don't see why you should feel so cautious about loving Whitman's poetry. Of the most American major works, Song of Myself is too varied to be pinned down as a national epic, and Crossing Brooklyn Ferry is as concerned with the passage of time for all people as it is for its own. The nationalistic laments are more available for wider enjoyment than, say, Marvell's Horation Ode for Cromwell, at least in my opinion. And even Shakespeare occasionally mingles patriotic tributes with his fantasias, as in the 'fair vestal throned by the west' speech in A Midsummer Night's Dream. Whitman is so varied - he is at least as dark as he is proud, as reclusive as he is confessional - that he is open to absolutely anyone.

I doubt that anyone who can so easily dismiss Whitman has read much of him very deeply. The Sea-Drift Elegies and When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd are as beautiful and individual as anything that I at least have read in the English poetry of the last 150 years. And Henry James and DH Lawrence are two major prose writers who certainly spent a large amount of time with his work, along with the plethora of mentioned poets.

[doowoop]

Yes it is. I`m not american too, and sometimes i seem to me Whitman a purely American
poet. But but many of his poems can be available to the mind and feelings of others.