Voluntary Childlessness

[Bluehound]

A long time ago I decided that I wasn’t going to have any children.
In fact it was so long ago that I have actually forgotten what prompted the initial idea. It’s even conceivable that I was born with the thought or developed it so early that it seems that way now.
As I grew up the idea grew with me, my Mum had a baby when I was twelve and I doted on my little sister, but was still in no doubt that I wouldn’t want one. Any chances of rose tinted visions about motherhood were shattered at that point, I knew what it was really like and it was hard and tiring and thankless.

When I started having boyfriends I took contraception very seriously, I knew that getting pregnant at a young age would tie me to that person and my run down town forever. Not getting pregnant was the only degree of control I had in a rather chaotic life.

I moved in with my first serious boyfriend at 16 and even though I was besotted with him a part of me knew that this was not the one, in fact as it turned out he was a complete a-hole and very much confirmed my belief that having no children meant that I could just walk away at any time with no regrets.

At 21 I got together with the most wonderful man I have ever met, three years later we married and suddenly everyone wanted to know when we were going to start producing. Even people who knew I had no desire for children thought I would change my mind now I was happy and settled. I didn’t.

11 years later we are just as crazy about each other and childless. I have noticed now that the people who know us have stopped asking, but worse than that new people who find out have started looking at me strangely. I see the thoughts like words scrolling across their face.
“A woman who doesn’t want kids (maybe she can’t, maybe something is wrong with her – poor thing) How strange.”

When I was younger it all seemed easier to explain - I want a life , I want to get up when I feel like it and go to bed late, I want to drop everything and go on holiday or do nothing all day but eat toast and watch Dr who. When I was young people accepted that, or waved it off with an “Oh you are only young - plenty of time yet.”

Now I find my self increasingly trying to justify it, despite the fact that a few people will tell me in stage whispers that they “sometimes wish they hadn’t had their little darlings.” I know they don’t mean it not really, no more than I meant it when I slammed the door and told my mum I hated her as a kid.
I don’t dislike kids, though I will admit I find babies rather boring. Toddlers however are endlessly fascinating and entertaining, and I spend loads of time with my niece and nephew. I have just never felt the desire to make one of my own.

Am I weird?
I even wonder that myself sometimes.
I have heard some women describe the need for children as a physical pain.
Logically we were built to breed - that’s how we got this far.
But is it possible that some people are born without that urge like worker ants or bees… could it be that I am part of a new phase for us overpopulated humans?

[The Atheist]

11 years later we are just as crazy about each other and childless. I have noticed now that the people who know us have stopped asking, but worse than that new people who find out have started looking at me strangely. I see the thoughts like words scrolling across their face.
“A woman who doesn’t want kids (maybe she can’t, maybe something is wrong with her – poor thing) How strange.”

I find it strange that people think that way, and I know exactly what you're talking about, because breeders make it a topic of conversation. That's when I leap into the fray and explain that it's like every other irrational belief, people must feel they're right and try to convince everyone else that they are.

Unfortunately, they're completely wrong. As you rightly note, the world isn't going to go short because 2 or 3 fewer kids exist, so the decision not to have them becomes purely rational and reasonable. On the other hand, having kids is purely social convention grown from biological necessity. We manage to suppress other unnecessary biological urges - nobody thinks fidelity is "weird". If you aren't a believer in afterlife and think the life we have right now is the only crack we'll get, breeders feel that they may have wasted half or more of their lives bringing up children and spending vast sums of money in a largely thankless and fruitless exercise.

While there are some minor vicarious paybacks, raising children is pretty much looking after them until they decide to go their own way in the world - which is how it should be.

Even worse, many of the breeders will be lousy parents, because while they have the same perfectly reasonable selfish desires for a "good" life, they will often be parents who give in to their kids, avoid discipline and bring up worthless drones. Or worse.


I don’t dislike kids, though I will admit I find babies rather boring. Toddlers however are endlessly fascinating and entertaining, and I spend loads of time with my niece and nephew**. I have just never felt the desire to make one of my own.

Am I weird?
I even wonder that myself sometimes.
I have heard some women describe the need for children as a physical pain.
Logically we were built to breed - that’s how we got this far.
But is it possible that some people are born without that urge like worker ants or bees… could it be that I am part of a new phase for us overpopulated humans?[/SIZE]

No, you're just a product of a society that allows women to make that choice.

Very, very few breeders will admit it, but having children is as irrational as having furniture arranged to feng shui.

Next time your friends go on the subject, you have two clear choices:

Either go on the attack and ask why, if childbirth and rearing are so bloody essential, do so many abortions happen every year? Why is contraception so popular? Then follow it up with the real sucker-punch; why do such an overwhelming percentage of children whose parents can best afford to give them parental childcare send their offspring to a child-minding factory? Or even worse, some unknown parent through a child-minding service like Porse (http://www.porse.co.nz/)*. You don't even need to get involved with rubbish like population (it's a red herring anyway) just point out the complete inconsistencies in the case for children.

Smile & wave.



I am a father of four children, aged 20, 11, 8 and 1.8.


* I know of one case where a woman is looking after three children, plus two of her own, while she is on medication for her bi-polarity. I have no problem with mentally ill people working with kids, but the stress of looking after five kids - all under five - is phenomenal and not really recommended.

[Delta40]

You're not seriously asking for reassurance here are you? If you don't want to bear children, then don't. Nobody should bow to social pressures to please the masses (which I'm sure many do...) if you can resist it, then good on you and have a great life.

[Bluehound]

No no Delta, as I say I made the decision so long ago and it has only ever really been confirmed for me as I have steered through life.
I think it's just been on my mind a bit lately as everyone around me seems to be having kids and I noticed that it is becoming a bit them and us plus one of my closest friends is single and I can hear her biological clock from 20 miles away…just wondered if anyone else had any thoughts on the matter really.

[OrphanPip]

It's perfectly normal for some women not to want to have children. And, really it's better to not have children you don't want than to be stuck with raising them.

I've long been resigned to never having children, for different reasons though.

[Delta40]

I think when our beliefs are consistently reinforced then we keep them. When we start to question them, challenge them, then it is possible to change them. having said that, it doesn't hurt to review our findings periodically and then satisfy ourselves we made the right choice.

I can remember deciding never to have kids for a whole host of reasons and then my own recklessness plumetted me into the parent role. It isn't a place where I can say 'If I could turn back time....' but like most people, I would have liked to have chosen my own fate through information and decision making rather than through irresponsibility. I doubt this helps you much though!

[Vonny]

I'm the same as you, only I've never really seen the purpose in marriage either.

Many people probably have some strange thoughts about me, as they are not able to pigeon-hole me. I mean, I'm really quite ordinary, I think, but I don't fit neatly into any of their boxes ...of nun, church "sister-worker," wife and mother, welfare mom, lesbian, promiscuous/playing the field, or 300 pounds/committed to ice cream and the Oprah Show.

At 19, I was devastated when a guy whom I thought I would marry, broke up with me. Through tears, and not knowing what to do with myself, I randomly picked up a book called "The Women's Room." The setting of the book was much before my time, but upon finishing that book I was content with the break-up. As the years have passed, I have realized how lucky I was with that outcome. I look at his current wife on Facebook and am so relieved that that's not me.

I don't spend too much time wondering how other people are judging me, (especially my neighbors and co-workers), because I'm too busy contemplating them, as well as feeling thankful that my life isn't the kind of catastrophe they've turned theirs into. The people who matter to me don't judge me because they are really "weird" (ordinary) like me.

I never wanted to be tied down with brats, but many women want kids for the opposite reason, so they can "lock-in" a man. And then if the man does manage to wiggle free, the women just suck the welfare system dry, all the while exclaiming how God has so generously blessed them.

Here are some thought I've had on the subject, which may be correct or incorrect...

Traditionally, I think, many children were desired within families because they were indentured slaves to work the farms.

Governments have traditionally instilled these values into subjects because they've needed droves of under-privileged expendables to fill their millitaries.

Nowadays, societies need many consumers, as well as sweat shop workers, to keep them strong. A huge population drives down wages. There can't be an extremely wealthy class without a lot of poor people being robbed.

(I hope what I'm saying here isn't considered political, since it's not about any particular country or party. If it is, someone please let me know.)

[The Atheist]

I'm the same as you, only I've never really seen the purpose in marriage either.

I don't blame you - it means nothing outside of religious context, and with current laws in most places, it doesn't have any legal advantages either. My wife wanted to sign the paper, so I did, because I don't care enough not to.


I look at his current wife on Facebook and am so relieved that that's not me.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s97/TheAtheist/funny.gif



Traditionally, I think, many children were desired within families because they were indentured slaves to work the farms.

No question. still fits to this day in some societies, where children are borne to bear their elders later.


Governments have traditionally instilled these values into subjects because they've needed droves of under-privileged expendables to fill their millitaries.

Not so much, although it helps. Were that the case, birth rates would be higher in warlike countries, but they aren't. Having a sizeable percentage of eligible men killed off kind of defeats the purpose.


Nowadays, societies need many consumers, as well as sweat shop workers, to keep them strong. A huge population drives down wages. There can't be an extremely wealthy class without a lot of poor people being robbed.

Only as a result of the first bit above - third-world economies just mean the chance is there and it isn't like a capaitalist to miss a chance!



(I hope what I'm saying here isn't considered political, since it's not about any particular country or party. If it is, someone please let me know.)

Pretty sure you're safe so far.

:)

[Vonny]

Atheist, thanks for clarifying some things!

That little animal is so adorable!! Oh gosh, I've loved stuffed animals all of my life. When I was a little girl and someone gave me a baby doll, I'd just throw it away. Rather than any kind of human baby, all I wanted was animals, stuffed or otherwise. To this day I think if the animals don't get into heaven, there's no point in most people trying.

I don't need to have kids because I'm my own kid, and all I do is indulge on me! (Well, and the animals!)

"Not so much, although it helps. Were that the case, birth rates would be higher in warlike countries, but they aren't. Having a sizeable percentage of eligible men killed off kind of defeats the purpose." .....This point I'll need to give more consideration to. Somewhat related to this idea... I think one reason some governments go so ballistic about abortion is they are encouraging the population growth for these ulterior reasons, and not just because they are Godly. (... not saying this as an abortion advocate, so no one go ballistic!)

[ralfyman]

I'm reminded of Ligotti's Conspiracy Against the Human Race and antinatalism.

[Bluehound]

Yes I think it is fair to say that I might have been having a little revaluation here, the result of which is that nothing has changed.
I also didn't believe in marriage when I was young, partly I guess because of my mum getting married three times (that kind of cheapens it a bit) but also because it seemed tied to the whole babies thing.
As for the religious overtones, they only have to be there if you want them. The concept of bonding two (or more) people is probly older than religion anyway or at the very least older than modern organised religion.
But as I say I was lucky enough to end up with a wonderful man who like me has no interest in procreating. When he suggested we got married , one day out of the blue, I just said yes without the slightest hesitation . We got married for all the right reasons I think, we didn't have to , we didn't need to, we wanted to and a fine old knees up it was too.

A funny thing Vonny is that I have two dogs that I spoil rotten, maybe there is something in that?

Sorry about your situation Pip, I do feel a little guilty sometimes when I think that I am rejecting something that other people have no choice about for whatever reason.

[Delta40]

Since I read your post this morning, I've been accosted several times by work colleagues waffling on about their kids....What a pain.

You can't reject what you have never had so don't worry about it!

[Bluehound]

Hehe thanks Delta, unfortunatly a Roman Catholic Grandmother instilled guilt in me at a genetic level :)


Natalism is a bit out of touch now that we are advanced enough to choose alternatives, procreating is no longer the bee all and end all of our existence.
But I am not antinatalist I very much admire people who have children and are good at it. There are some terrible parents which make me despair a little for the future of our species but I don't think we can pick and choose who is allowed to do it and who isn't. Can we?

[Delta40]

One is required to have a license to drive but not to parent...

[Propter W.]

There's too many people already. Kudos to you!

[The Atheist]

One is required to have a license to drive but not to parent...

Much worse is that you have to have a licence for a dog but not a child.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Much worse is that you have to have a licence for a dog but not a child.

And a fishing rod???

Having said that I think it would cause a little fuss if a government imposed the need to get a licence to have children. Don't give them any ideas anyway.


I don't blame you - it means nothing outside of religious context, and with current laws in most places, it doesn't have any legal advantages either. My wife wanted to sign the paper, so I did, because I don't care enough not to.

My, you're a romantic one.

[The Atheist]

And a fishing rod???

No. You need a licence to catch some types of fish, which is a bit different.



Having said that I think it would cause a little fuss if a government imposed the need to get a licence to have children. Don't give them any ideas anyway.

I agree, but it's a shame there isn't some kind of scumbag index where we can sterilise them. There are some truly horrible parents out there.



My, you're a romantic one.

No, you're just confusing marriage with romance and love. Marriage is irrelevant to both, as divorce statistics show quite starkly.

[Delta40]

I agree, but it's a shame there isn't some kind of scumbag index where we can sterilise them. There are some truly horrible parents out there.
There are some truly horrible kids too. I'm not sure if there is a correlation here....

[LitNetIsGreat]

No. You need a licence to catch some types of fish, which is a bit different.

Negative. Unless the laws have changed in the last 15 years, in the UK you need or needed a licence to fish. It was called a rod licence, but was really money for the upkeep of the rivers etc.



I agree, but it's a shame there isn't some kind of scumbag index where we can sterilise them. There are some truly horrible parents out there.

There are and:


There are some truly horrible kids too. I'm not sure if there is a correlation here....

Without reservation I would say yes.


No, you're just confusing marriage with romance and love. Marriage is irrelevant to both, as divorce statistics show quite starkly.

True, I'm not saying that marriage is a necessity for love/lust of course. I was just amused by your enthusiasm. I had this mental image of you far from fussing over cakes and seating plans etc, never mind.

-----------------
Sorry, yes to the OP as others have said certainly you should try not to feel the pressure of mass opinion and attempt to follow your individual calling, though it is never easy, try not to be too mad at friends though perhaps.

[Delta40]

Without reservation I would say yes.


lol. Are you sure awful kids are not a result of ADD, ADHD, fast food, computer games and tv?

[LitNetIsGreat]

lol. Are you sure awful kids are not a result of ADD, ADHD, fast food, computer games and tv?

Ha, ha, it's a contributing factor, but most things are OK in moderation. However, when you get parents allowing kids to say up while 6.00am playing Xbox - regularly, is it any wonder that they are falling asleep in English and refusing to listen to Mr Neely's wise words?

[Delta40]

Ha, ha, it's a contributing factor, but most things are OK in moderation. However, when you get parents allowing kids to say up while 6.00am playing Xbox - regularly, is it any wonder that they are falling asleep in English and refusing to listen to Mr Neely's wise words?

I agree with all things in moderation. As a parent I am puzzled at the increase in bizarre child behaviour, obesity, sexualization etc and I can't help but ask what responsibility collective society takes or is it really all down to one or two sets of shoulders?

[The Atheist]

There are some truly horrible kids too. I'm not sure if there is a correlation here....

Yep, most of 'em have crap parents. I make a study of it.


Negative. Unless the laws have changed in the last 15 years, in the UK you need or needed a licence to fish. It was called a rod licence, but was really money for the upkeep of the rivers etc.

Over there, sure, but it doesn't work that way in many places. Most of the world, you can pick up a rod and walk to the sea and chuck it in without a licence of any kind.


True, I'm not saying that marriage is a necessity for love/lust of course. I was just amused by your enthusiasm. I had this mental image of you far from fussing over cakes and seating plans etc, never mind.

Never an issue - only Mrs Atheist's family were invited and they thought they were just going out to dinner until the celebrant turned up and started talking.


lol. Are you sure awful kids are not a result of ADD, ADHD, fast food, computer games and tv?

The vast majority, absolutely. ADD/ADHD are sufficiently poorly-explained, diagnosed and treated that I think it's a handy excuse more than a real reason. Sometimes, it may cause issues, but far less than experts* would have us believe.

Fast food, computer games and tv may indeed cause problems, but since they are there for the parents to monitor, it's going straight back on parents.

*Expert being someone who makes their living out of ADD/ADHD.


I agree with all things in moderation. As a parent I am puzzled at the increase in bizarre child behaviour, obesity, sexualization etc and I can't help but ask what responsibility collective society takes or is it really all down to one or two sets of shoulders?

Behaviour, we've done; obesity is apparently all down to mum during pregnancy (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8459271/Obesity-DNA-triggered-by-poor-pregnancy-diet.html), sexualisation is again down to parents who dress their little girls like $2 hookers and pretty much all the bizarre behaviour is due to kids not being taught manners or self-discipline.

As Jeremiah notes (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2032:18&version=NIV), the sins of the parents shall be visited upon the children. (paraphrased)

This probably a good time to suggest Philip Larkin's This be the Verse poem. It contains extremely profane language so I won't link or quote it, but it's relevant.

These are all reasons why people should really think about what having kids mean before they go and create one. Parenting is extremely difficult; while some past experience by others can be useful, individual kids come with individual needs but not a user manual. Not hard to get wrong.

[Vonny]

I think there's blame to go around for why the kids are such a mess. There are children growing up in some awfully gross homes. Many children are not even taught to brush their teeth nowadays.

I think it's good to home-school children or send them to a private school, which here is mainly Christian school, (and spendy.)

Parents today try to teach their children right from wrong, and then all of the sudden they are lying and stealing because they learned it at school from their friends. A boy I know who just graduated from a public high school said that kids aren't falling asleep in English class anymore. Now the girls go to school in short skirts with no underwear on and expose themselves to the boys in class. He said that, as a Christian, it was rather distracting for him.

I hear women all the time saying, "I want a baby, I want a baby." I think the consideration should be, "Am I doing a child a favor by bringing it into the world? Will it have a father? (Yeah, that's important, in spite of this new fad of single parenting.) Can I afford to educate this and provide healthcare?" You should have a child if it's good for the child, rather than just because you feel a drive to reproduce. ...My own personal idiosyncrasy is that the mother should be at home with the child at least until it begins first grade. That's how my mom did it. I think to have a baby and dump it in childcare to go off to work sucks. This isn't to make any mom feel bad who's been forced into that situation, but to have a child with the plan to dump it off in childcare for 10 or 12 hours per day sucks.

I'm the type that if I had a child I would be fretting and fretting about his/her safety and giving it a decent life. I would worry about things like pesticides in foods, and the environment that the kid will inherit, and those concerns would drive me nuts.

And then, once you have kids the worry and struggle never ends. I know middle-aged people who finally get their kids raised and breathe a sigh of relief, and then before they know it, their kids are having kids. And the young adults are not responsible enough to raise their children, so that becomes the grandparents' responsibility.

I tend to worry about over-population, global warming, corporate evils, and so forth, and one day a man I know (who is also childless) said to me, "Isn't it wonderful that when we die we won't be leaving anyone behind?" I've thought about that, and one of the things I'm most thankful for is that when ever I'm gone I won't be leaving my children on this planet and generations of grandchildren into this future, which I don't feel at all confident about. My own feeling is that we really are at the End Times, only I'm not so sure Jesus is going to save us from this disaster that humans have created. For me it is a comforting thought that when my lifetime is over, my gene pool is gone.

My older brothers, before me, made the decision not to have children, so I have no nieces or nephews, and I'm glad. I'd never even breed an animal, I just take in those that are homeless.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Since I read your post this morning, I've been accosted several times by work colleagues waffling on about their kids....What a pain.
Reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTY_fJXZtcw).

[The Atheist]

I think there's blame to go around for why the kids are such a mess. There are children growing up in some awfully gross homes. Many children are not even taught to brush their teeth nowadays.

Or count to 10, recite the alphabet and many other simple tasks.


Parents today try to teach their children right from wrong, and then all of the sudden they are lying and stealing because they learned it at school from their friends.

I don't buy that. Peer pressure to commit crime just doesn't really exist in any degree - the kids learn dishonesty from their parents long before they learn it from their peers, plus, the fact that still only a small percentage actually break the law pretty well shows it's not as widespread as you might think.


A boy I know who just graduated from a public high school said that kids aren't falling asleep in English class anymore. Now the girls go to school in short skirts with no underwear on and expose themselves to the boys in class. He said that, as a Christian, it was rather distracting for him.

Pics or it didn't happen!

:D

No, seriously though; again, I doubt this. Most girls are just not that exhibitionist and it smacks of fantasy.


I think to have a baby and dump it in childcare to go off to work sucks. This isn't to make any mom feel bad who's been forced into that situation, but to have a child with the plan to dump it off in childcare for 10 or 12 hours per day sucks.

Couldn't agree more, and the number of kids starting daycare at weeks old is increasing as the pressure for money mounts.


I know middle-aged people who finally get their kids raised and breathe a sigh of relief, and then before they know it, their kids are having kids. And the young adults are not responsible enough to raise their children, so that becomes the grandparents' responsibility.

Yes, that has become common. Hard on the grandparents, but maybe if they'd taught their kids those life-lessons, they wouldn't be in that situation?


My own feeling is that we really are at the End Times, only I'm not so sure Jesus is going to save us from this disaster that humans have created.

Well, I'm very sure Jesus won't save us, but I don't think we're living in the end of times either. There's plenty of life in the species and planet just yet.

[ClaesGefvenberg]

A long time ago I decided that I wasn’t going to have any children.I can relate to that. Not that I ever decided not to become a father, but my wife and I took a very long time deciding whether to become parents or not. In the end, after more than 10 years together we finally went for it because we wanted to, and our daughter is now approaching her sweet 16.

Until then, however, lots of people who should have known better pestered us with questions like if it wasn't about time, and so on. I found that highly unsensitive. It was none of their business, and what if we had not been able to reproduce? I can imagine how it would have felt to get those questions then. Besides, they will never be satisfied anyway: As soon as our daughter had seen the light of day they started hounding us about our plans for the next one. We had no such plans, and still don't.


Am I weird?
Not a bit of it. You made your choice and marched to the sound of your own drum, which is more than can be said about many people: You sound perfectly sound to me. :thumbsup:

/Claes

[Vonny]

First, I think *Claas* rather weird, but there's such a thing as *good weird.* My dad abandoned me when I was 6, so I know *good weird* when I see it. If I find one like *Claas*, and he's consistent for 10 years, maybe I'll reconsider my stance. And that goes even if I can't pronounce the guy's name. (But I'd still adopt a child, and hopefully it would turn out as cute as the guy who had the "Wild West" party.)

Atheist, it's quite possible that the Christian boy got confused. He's been taught delusion and doesn't know reality from fantasy, afterall. However, I've heard there are pics. Ever heard of the cell phone texting known as "sexting"? A woman I work with put her phone in my face with a pic of her brother's-in-law privates on it. (Her sister's husband had sent it to his wife where she works as a dental hygenist and then she had forwarded it to her sister at work, and then it was shared with me.)

Now that I think about it, the one woman I have in mind who has "taught her child right from wrong," does lead a trashy life that she tries to put a lovely face on. ...It's funny, you made me think more deeply on this point... I know of this woman being secretly unethical at work, (takes things she shouldn't.) I know that the father of her child, who is not present in their home, is a methamphetamine addict and she refers to him as "merely a sperm donor."

Gosh, I do hope you're right about there being more life in the planet. My brother tries to tell me that.

And I think that if a person can't reproduce for some reason, so what? There are those who are blind and those who can't walk, and people who don't know their "you know what" from a hole in the ground. There's people so dumb they think we can trash the planet and when it gets bad enough, God will give us a brand new heaven and earth, so the thing to do is facilitate the devastation and hurry it along.

[The Atheist]

It was none of their business, and what if we had not been able to reproduce?

Excellent point!


Atheist, it's quite possible that the Christian boy got confused. He's been taught delusion and doesn't know reality from fantasy, afterall.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s97/TheAtheist/funny.gif


However, I've heard there are pics. Ever heard of the cell phone texting known as "sexting"? A woman I work with put her phone in my face with a pic of her brother's-in-law privates on it. (Her sister's husband had sent it to his wife where she works as a dental hygenist and then she had forwarded it to her sister at work, and then it was shared with me.)

I have no doubt it happens, but as Chat Roulette showed, males are a lot more exhibitionist than females! There will be the odd really messed-up girl that displays herself in front of all and sundry, but they will be rare.

What's going on doesn't seem to be all that different to what went on at school 40 years ago, but it was usually behind a shed rather than on a camera.


Now that I think about it, the one woman I have in mind who has "taught her child right from wrong," does lead a trashy life that she tries to put a lovely face on.

That is tragic, and again, there's plenty of evidence that some truly excellent parents turn out monsters. Genetics, see. Sometimes humans just cannot overcome whatever genetic defect it is that makes them rapists/muderers/etc.

To me, the problem seems to be that we're getting worse at parenting. Not that we were brilliant at it 60 or 600 years ago, but I think parenting in reality lags an enormous amount compared to parenting as a science.

[Vonny]

Well Atheist, any man making a good faith effort at fathering has my vote, even if he's an Atheist.

That little red animal gets me every time! :smile5: I think one reason I'm drawn to this site is that there's a lot of rolling around on the floor and laughing that goes on here. Like *Claas* does it when he's at work and somebody brings in books that he's excited about. And the dashing Valhalla guy at the Wild West party does it, too. It's more fun here than the anorexia recovery forum that I sometimes frequented before I stumbled onto this place. :lol:

There's not a lot of good examples being set for children. I was at the library waiting to check out a book, standing back a bit to give the woman in front of me a chance to finish. As soon as the woman in front of me was done, a young teenage girl darted from no where right in front of me to the counter to check out! The librarian went right ahead and checked out that girl. I felt like saying, "Excuse me, it's my turn," but I would have sounded rude. I think the librarian would've done that little girl a favor to tell her to wait her turn, because children need to be taught some manners somewhere. If not at home, then somewhere.

[Delta40]

Vonny I think bad manners should not be reinforced. If you are worried that you will sound rude if you speak up then you have tacitly endorsed that young woman's behaviour. Yet you expect someone else to say something, so I'm not sure why you are mentioning it. ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil (or rudeness) is that good men do nothing’

[Vonny]

Delta, I said that someone should teach the girl something. If the librarian had corrected the girl the mother would probably have made such a fuss that she would have had the librarian fired.

And I do believe that evil triumphs where I live. My small town is a stronghold of the Aryan Nations. The official headquarters used to be here, until some of the leaders went to prison for murdering minorities. Until just a few years ago, they held an annual parade through our main street. Though slightly more under wraps now, the Aryan Nations presence is still very much alive here, and particularly in my neighborhood. One of their meeting places is a cafe across from my home. Minorities are few and far between. If you are different in any way, you keep it under your hat. For instance, the homosexuals here are very much closeted. One of my brothers is gay, and I really do worry about him. I am not an outspoken person in any way. I just blend in. Actually, I am half minority, on my father's side, though no one can tell from my appearance, and my name was changed many years ago, so few people know. I have a neighbor, a man, who often approaches me when I step out of my house, and begins to rant about Jews, though none live here. There are people here (such as minority-rights advocates) who wake in the morning to nooses hanging outside their front doors; the story is in the newspaper, but no effort is made to find the perpetrator, because there is a nonverbal agreement among the vast majority of residents that it's well and good. And everyone knows who did it. A lot of these threatening people are publicly known. But generally, even if you are different, you can coexist here as long as you're discreet about what you are, and as long as you don't look different, such as black.

I'm a single woman. I'm not one of the good men who is going to stop evil from triumphing. I mean, they'd just kill me and be done with me.

But I do wish someone (a cooperation of parents and society) would teach the children some manners, for their own sake. Many children here actually are well-mannered because they learn to behave in church, but many have "meth" moms.

Children are like dogs, they thrive with a little training and some boundaries set for them.

And get a load of this Delta...I know a woman who is a social worker who goes into unfit homes. She sees the most hideous scenes. If meth is present in the home, as long as it is on the table, and the child cannot reach the table, the social worker isn't allowed to report it and bring in the authorities without losing her job with the agency. This woman has a master's degree and is very well qualified, but there are not many jobs available to her. She would like to be out of this job, but she has a house payment to make. Another thing sad about this situation is that this woman would love to have a baby but she doesn't because she can't find a decent man and she doesn't earn enough money to have a child, and she's too responsible to go ahead and have a child herself. But every day she witnesses these meth moms who shouldn't have children, and she says she can do nothing about it.

[Delta40]

I'm a single woman. I'm not one of the good men who is going to stop evil from triumphing.

Fair enough. Now stop complaining about the so-called wrongs comitted against you.

Since it is safe to assume that someone, other than yourself should take it upon themselves to teach children better manners due to the fact that you have excused yourself from this responsibility, you ought to be happy with the consequences of your inaction.

I only take issue when you complain about a situation you freely choose to remain silent on then have the audactity to complain that nobody is doing anything about it. You aren't either. You are accountable for not saying anything.

You made no impression on that girls rudeness other than 'It's ok for you to push in like that. Please, feel welcome to do it to others because it yields results' She has no reason to change! What is it about you that you might change? Why put her rude action on the shoulders of anyone else to deal with as long as it isn't you?

Nobody likes to responds to wrongs committed against them, yet they have plenty to say when out of earshot and amongst sympathizers.

The bottom line is, you either speak up or suck it up. You don't get both.

[Vonny]

Well I love all animals, so I'll just leave it at that.

However, there is at least one other avatar on this site that is cuter than yours so I'll go take a look at that one now. :smile5:

[JuniperWoolf]

Since I read your post this morning, I've been accosted several times by work colleagues waffling on about their kids....What a pain.


You have no idea how much I hate that. I often tell people that I'll never be a parent because I'm not a breeder, and that I don't want to waste the best years of my life because I still want to "actually accomplish things with my twenties," but to be honest it's just so that I can see the look on their face (heh, I'm bad). I don't really mean any of it.

I'm twenty-three years old, and people have been pressuring me to have kids and get married since I was eighteen. In my town, girls are expected to graduate from highschool (or not, you don't get much **** for dropping out here) and then get married and start producing children right away. Men are expected to graduate (or not) and then start working at the mine, mill or prison then get married and start impregnating her right away. This happens because people can make so much money at the mill, mine or prison. Alberta just-so-happens to have a lot of money, which you would think is a good thing, but it means that on top of people having fancy hemi-trucks that shine like the sun itself and owning your own home at age twenty-one, they also never have to consider bettering themselves or getting a further education. Once I'm done with my degree, I'll be making as much money as a ranger working for the government of Canada as an eighteen-year-old miner in Alberta who started working straight out of highschool. So, the men work and the women who marry them need to feel like they're doing something so they get knocked up.

It never turns out well. There are a lot of bad parents in this town (and not just the indulgent parents who produce spoiled drone children that The Atheist mentioned earlier, I'm talking about bad parents). As for the women who can't work in the mill, mine or prison (and not many women can handle that kind of work - hell, not many men can handle that work, it sucks so much ***, but they plug on through for their entire miserable lives because they get big pay cheques), these women use their children as to inform you that their kids are their reason for existing and that anyone who doesn't have kids is living an empty half-life while at the same time those kids often don't get dinner at night, they go to school dirty because their parents are still in their friggin' partying years and drink or stay out all night having sex with random strangers instead of taking care of their own children that are "so amazing, I've never felt like I had a purpose in life until I had a baby." Keep in mind that these people are between eighteen and twenty six. Then they turn to the few people in town who are like me who didn't start producing at age eighteen and who are maybe picking up a degree or trade and they treat us like freaks. They say "so, are you ever going to have children?" Once their nineteen year old "husbands" (and I use the term loosly, I'd feel a lot more comfortable calling them "temporary meal tickets" or "sperm donors") leave them, they don't have enough money to provide for themselves or their three or four children and they have to get a crappy job (one that doesn't pay well, ie. not the mine, mill or jail - usually they waitress or work at the bank or one of the stores or gas stations) and live out the rest of their lives overworked and full of bitterness. Almost every single one of my mother's friends have lived this life (my mom has lived here since 1971, when she was one years old), and now that I'm out of highschool the majority of the women in my year are doing the exact same thing that their mothers did. The men live out the rest of their lives working a dangerous, difficult job that takes up most of their time and energy, seeing their kids on weekends and drinking way too much beer/smoking way too much weed/buying expensive toys that they don't have time to use. It's such a joke.

It's out of disgust for these people that I have so much contempt for the idea of parenthood. Actually, I don't mean parenthood, I really just mean having kids in your late teens, early twenties. If these girls would just wait a damn minute, go get a degree or a trade to fall back on so that they can make sure that no matter what happens they can take care of their own kids, let themselves mature and party during the early years without anyone who depends on them for their survival, they could still have kids later on when they're in a better position to take care of them. As it is, everyone suffers, themselves and their kids.

/rantover

[Delta40]

Lol. Although I must say, alot of non-producers tend to believe they have a greater insight into parenting than breeders. Coffee breaks with them is more painful....

[JuniperWoolf]

I'm not talking so much about parenting as I am the decision to become a parent in the first place (specifically, when you're still a child yourself).

[ClaesGefvenberg]

As soon as the woman in front of me was done, a young teenage girl darted from no where right in front of me to the counter to check out!To balance things up a bit, I have experienced similar situations many times... When I was a kid. The only difference was that the grown-ups were the culprits: Customers would barge in right in front of me when I was waiting for my turn, or clerks would ignore me and serve adults ahead of me. I silently vowed not to treat children like that when I grew up myself.

Today, with my youth behind me, I still do my level best to live up to that vow, and it works out very well: Treat people (children and adults alike) with respect and you get respect in turn. My point is that leading by example is the best way to lead. It is also very rewarding.

Maybe we have the beginnings of a new thread here?

/Claes

[Vonny]

That's a good point Claes. (Hope I spelled that right.) Actually, I think the reason why this issue is an irritant to me is that I'm not big. I'm smaller probably than that kid that darted in front of me. I also have always looked younger than my age! So everyone goes in front of me, and men especially get waited on before me, although some men are gentlemanly and will remind the waiter or checker (whatever) that I was there first.

Hey, I'm definitely ready for a new thread, so why not start one?! This thread has gotten worn frazzled. Only I may not be back to it for a little bit, since I've got some company coming and I have to get ready.

[ClaesGefvenberg]

Hey, I'm definitely ready for a new thread, so why not start one?! This thread has gotten worn frazzled. Only I may not be back to it for a little bit, since I've got some company coming and I have to get ready.Let's cobble something together tonight then. Right now I'm off to work, and judging from the way urgent tasks poured in yesterday I won't be back home until late.

/Claes

[Vonny]

Hi Claes, I'm not sure when "tonight" is. I think we have different night times.

I don't think I would be good at starting a thread. It's not really like me to initiate much of anything. It's not much like me to post in a forum at all. What I've discovered, suddenly, is that there's something I'm getting wrong with it, like I'm socially awkward. I have an odd sense of humor that looks different when typed! I think I've inadvertently offended some people. And then some things I've said have simply come out differently than I intended, such as recently comparing someone to a puppy or kitten, Ackk, it came out wrong!! I didn't mean that. It's just that I'm an animal person... cats, horses, just about any animal... so I think in animal terms a lot. I'm seeing that writing in a forum requires some practice, so I'll take this a bit slower and let you cobble together another thread when you have time!

Well, that's off topic, but one thing I think about often, actually one of the determinants in my decision not to have children, is what if you ended up with a Down's Syndrome child, or an otherwise horrendously disabled child? It would be nightmare to think of him/her outliving the parent and there being no one to look out for him/her. It would be very difficult to watch a child suffer from a condition such as juvenile diabetes. Plus, in my country, many people lack healthcare, and what healthcare we do have is being dismantled, so who will take care of the kids? (This woman I know who has a master's degree and works full-time as a social worker, has no healthcare at all, and she is not unusual!) I think about, what if my child was abducted or killed in a car accident? I don't think I could handle any of it.

I've heard there are some good marriages out there. But if you get it wrong, it can drain the life from you. With relationships where you share contracts... buying a house with someone, combining bank accounts... ug, it can be so difficult to untwist that! My brother, who was never going to make this mistake, finally found the *right* woman, married her and then spent the next ten years trying to extricate himself. To separate they sold their house after the housing market had crashed and took a huge loss. They had no children but he almost lost custody of one of his dogs to her.

Growing up, I was dragged through 4 marriages of my mom's, plus she had 4 kids that she really couldn't raise. I think, life is short and I won't have all of these things to encumber me! It's better to travel light and have more fun. :smile5:

[Bluehound]

It's better to travel light and have more fun. :smile5:




Indeed :thumbsup:

[ClaesGefvenberg]

Hi Claes, I'm not sure when "tonight" is. I think we have different night times. Errrr.... "Tonight" ought to have been a couple of nights ago, but as usual life happened, so I am a wee bit overdue here... :rolleyes: Sorry about that. As for times, I am at GMT +1 (or +2 now that DST is in effect). I'll do something about that other thread later (Hopefully today :smilewinkgrin: )


I don't think I would be good at starting a thread. It's not really like me to initiate much of anything. It's not much like me to post in a forum at all.Why ever not? Tell you what, Vonny: Just a few years back few of us were any good at starting any threads any old where... Because there were no forums to start them in. That is how new this forum thing really is, and the fact is that we are all still learning how to deal with the new opportunity. I wonder if you are not being much to hard on yourself?


What I've discovered, suddenly, is that there's something I'm getting wrong with it, like I'm socially awkward. I have an odd sense of humor that looks different when typed!Well... Join the club. We all get it wrong every now and then, and not only in forums, but that should not stop us. Besides, from what I've seen thus far you are doing just as well as anyone else in that respect, and forget about the socially awkward bit. If you feel that way it is probably just because you demand too much from yourself.


I think I've inadvertently offended some people. And then some things I've said have simply come out differently than I intended, such as recently comparing someone to a puppy or kitten, Ackk, it came out wrong!! I didn't mean that.Like I said, it happens to all of us, and I'm sure it wasn't all that bad. You can take that from yours truly: I regularly put my foot in my mouth, so I should know.


one thing I think about often, actually one of the determinants in my decision not to have children, is what if ...Yes, what if? Believe me when i say that we all worry to some extent. Anyone even vaguely contemplating getting children are asking themselves those questions, but in the vast majority of cases our worries are unfounded. I cannot offer any advice in that respect. We all have to make our individual decisions.


I've heard there are some good marriages out there.Yes there are. There are even some fantastic and some abysmal ones, but again, most of them are somewhere in between those extremes. Once more I have no advice to offer, but I can say that I myself am not complaining.


Growing up, I was dragged through 4 marriages of my mom's, plus she had 4 kids that she really couldn't raise. I think, life is short and I won't have all of these things to encumber me! It's better to travel light and have more fun. :smile5:Four...? Small wonder then, that you have your doubts, but remember that this is not the norm. I think we should learn from the past but try not to let it hem us in (easier said than done, I know).

/Claes

[Vonny]

Hi Claes,

Thank you for replying, and thank you for the encouragement. Don't feel bad that you were busy. I get overwhelmed too.

I guess as practice, I will, one time only, write a very long-winded post that I'll feel a little odd about later.

Um, one reason I feel that I'll make a mistake (like right now!) is that I sometimes go through spells when I don't sleep for 36 hours. Then I sleep for 5 hours, or less, and get up and go to work. And then I repeat this. I'm not sure how I function! There's no reason for it. I mean, no drugs or anything. I've just always had a lot of energy and I walk around my house all night cleaning and stuff. After a while, things go haywire, like my balance is off and my head is ditzy.

Well, I couldn't start a thread. I know that sounds silly, but I have an irrational fear of doing that; I simply couldn't force myself to do it. I've used the computer of course for school and work, shopping, emailing, and then one other forum that I read without posting in too much, but I haven't ventured out much online. I also have watched hardly any TV in my life. Often (every day) I think that I appear retarded because someone will start to talk about something from TV that is obvious to everyone else, but I'm oblivious. Concerning our culture, I'm mostly at a loss. I have a TV for DVDs, but no TV channels. Once in a while I watch a movie. All that I know about network TV is what people tell me. With TV, for one thing, I can't deal with advertising, and the way it constantly jumps from one thing to another because it makes static in my head. I don't have a cell phone or a camera. It's not that I can't afford those items. Mostly, I don't have the patience for pushing all of those buttons. (Other than for business) I only talk on the landline phone once a week, to one person, because most people's conversing bores me. I do have an MP3 because I like music, but mostly not vocals. I don't know why, but only in the last few months have I sat down with the computer, browsing, for any length of time. Oh yeah, I just remembered that I also don't have a car. I can drive and I have a licence, but I don't like to drive. I walk or let other people drive me. Gee, I never realized how backwards I was until just now, as I make this list. ...It's just like I never thought of myself as a "nonbreeder" until this thread. ...And one of the reasons I don't want kids is that I couldn't take the chattering. If people jabber at me a lot, my brain short circuits.

A few more observations. I realized over the last few days that children are often more pleasant than adults. Old ladies are often absolutely horrible.

Yesterday was the first day of beautiful weather we've had since about last September, so I went with my brother and his dogs for a run. The park has a grassy area, and the rest is wooded with trails. I thought there might be many people in the park, but when we got there, no one was there. I said to my brother, can you believe that no one is here, on a day like today?" He said, "This shows just how messed up this world is. There's not a family, not an animal, nothing." It was good, but it was strange. I mean, why aren't people outside on a beautiful day, especially when we've had snow and rain forever? For a while we threw toys for the dogs to chase. Finally, a group of people showed up there. They held an Easter egg hunt, and it lasted for all of about 15 frantic minutes. The mothers arrived wearing high heels. All of the parents took out cameras to photograph their children. Then they were gone. The parents will carry those photos of their children at the park for an Easter egg hunt, no doubt slapping each other in the face until they fall down, but no one will ever admit, (or even realize themselves) that mainly what they had was a photo op, staged "family values." ...Oh, I'm not saying that real families don't exist.

I love to watch the dogs' eyes when we throw the sticks for them. They FOCUS. Their eyes are so keen and so focused. They wait for the stick to be thrown for them, and their eyes are focused on that stick every second, if you go a little to the right with it or to the left, their eyes are there. They also know which stick belongs to which, so each dog will wait for its respective stick to be thrown and will not chase the other dog's stick, even though they are so excited to chase it that they can barely contain themselves. They have that "zen" thing mastered. They don't get bored after 15 minutes; they will keep that up for as long as we play with them. No attention deficit disorder there. I find that my own mind begins to calm down and focus as I'm watching the dogs. I'm always thinking, wow, I wish I could focus like that!


Anyways this forum is fun. It's different. Claes it's a good thing you're a speed reader if you read this!

[Vonny]

Well, at least the days are getting longer... though it's raining again. I think eventually spring will be here. With climate change, who knows? We now get 1/4 the snow in winter that we used to get, and then in the spring we're drowning in rain. I will pray for the gray to end before I lose my mind, so we can get out to run more with the dogs in that nice empty park (except for some deer) and then I can sleep more.

It is so funny that the dogs know all the important things. They concentrate like a laser, but it is reality they read. In the winter I wish I could read books more. I have trouble reading books, but looking into the dogs' eyes is a reading experience really. Getting out with them for one sunny day reminded me. Hmm, maybe Easter is real afterall. god...dog...god...dog...god...all you have to do is reverse it.