Is There a Truth?

[IceM]

I'm 17. I'm a kid. I write Slam poetry, am trying to write a sequence of sonnets in hopes of publishing, experiment with free verse, almost have a girlfriend, love frisbee, play it everyday and practice my trombone once a week. I log onto this website looking for truth: about literature, philosophy, life, love, experience, whatever ethereal substance lies beyond the confines of my vocabulary and the even larger confine of the English language.

Every day my life is different, very literally. My music intonation changes. I write different poetry, and lines I write the day before are forgotten, sound vastly different or just don't seem like poetry. The weather changes in correlation to my mood. Everyday my girlfriend looks different; sometimes beautiful, sometimes not, sometimes amazing, sometimes shocked that she came to school wearing the same clothes as she did the night before, indicating she may have slept in them. But the eyes I look at her with are always the same.

There are a lot of constants to my changing life. My eyes for my girlfriend are the same, as are my tastes. My love of poetry and nervousness when writing, inertia when attempting to motivate myself to write, and dreams for publishing burning brightly. I read everyday, text my girlfriend, still have two parents, always love frisbee and seafood and get a total kick out of big band jazz.

I get it. I'm a kid. I'm still naive to the "Real world" and to all metaphysical experience parents have that adolescents inherently don't. But the world around us is changing, globally and locally, almost with every second, both scientifically and metaphysically. Given the opportunity to relive any day of my life at random ten times, I'd probably experience that same day ten different ways, always feeling different sensations.

Finding truth amongst a changing world isn't easy. How do I know it's even there? How do I know my rationalizations create a false pretense, ascribing a truth when nothing may exist? How do I know there is a beautiful system within the physical system that binds us to scientific, moral and emotional law? How will I know if I find it? And is it subjective? Is my truth any different from your truth?

Is there a truth at all?

[Cunninglinguist]

As someone who grounds himself in theoretical philosophy I'm tempted to talk about those necessary truths and a priori knowledge. Albeit that there are but a handful of these "necessary truths" they sufficiently bind the universe--or at least the human race--together as one coherent whole, giving it some consistency. These things include the logical principles, etc. etc.

But that's probably not the kind of answer you're looking for. I guess there are a number of ways one could go about replying to this. What is this truth? It sounds like you're looking for something stable and immutable to hold on to. Being 17 generally means that many of your convictions about the world are based on fluctuating moods, which, in short, can get you into a lot of trouble. Personally, I have looked upon my moods as facetious and have taken them as such, as if they were drugs altering my consciousness. In a sense, I have distanced myself from them, and in distancing myself they have become less of an inconvenience. But they nonetheless ought to be accepted and felt lest repression warps the soul.

Her eyes will not always be the same. We all become sick and grow old, and we all will die. In our ignorance we view a changing world, and with it the mind that does not understand will forever be in suffering. These are the Buddhist truths. Understand that the glass holding water is already broken; when it falls and breaks then nothing has changed.

To me, most of your questions seem beside a larger point here. In the realm of metaphysics few things can be said with any certainty - but, more to the point, you're asking these questions and, moreover, looking for answers to them because you're dissatisfied. With what? This is the source, I believe. When you are genuinely content the answers to these questions don't matter, and, in my experience, that's the best way around them.

[IceM]

Doesn't being content suggest finding a truth and becoming self-satisfied with knowing that truth?

[Cunninglinguist]

Yes - but if you spend you life looking for answers to impossible questions you'll only find disappointment. Many decide to appeal to faith when asked the big questions about God, freedom, the afterlife, etc., which usually doesn't fully satisfy.

For me, a more or less Buddhist attitude has satisfied me, which recognizes the truth of change and seeks to understand the real nature of things. The glass is beautiful, but it's already broken in its nature, as said, so there is no tragedy when it falls off the table and breaks. When we expunge this ignorance about the nature of the world we reach nirvana.

[Panglossian]

If you're writing slam poetry what you need is some truth slogans that can easily be slam-dunked in ...

Eternity Now !
I Am That I Am !
Love without Motive !
The Now Is Key !
Unknow Thyself, fool !
Nowhere - Now Here !
Truth is a Pathless Land !
Everything Flows !
You cannot step twice into the same mutha****in' stream !
All Truths are Half-truths !
All in THE ALL, and THE ALL in All !

Word.

[G L Wilson]

What is truth? - Life is too short to be without ambition.

[G L Wilson]

Science is my truth.

[Panglossian]

Doesn't that make your truth second-hand - in that you rely on others to inform you what it is?

[G L Wilson]

Most knowledge comes second-hand, even still science is an investigation of your own resources if it is anything at all after one commits one's thought to analysis.

[Panglossian]

Okay. Science concerns itself with objective truth: facts, provable actualities, empirical knowledge - yes? What about subjective truth, psychological truth? What about the mind? Where does the mind fit in with your statement "science is my truth"?

[G L Wilson]

Okay. Science concerns itself with objective truth: facts, provable actualities, empirical knowledge - yes? What about subjective truth, psychological truth? What about the mind? Where does the mind fit in with your statement "science is my truth"?

Mind proceeds from the brain.

[Panglossian]

So this mind - whatever it is - (perhaps I can call it consciousness) - the question is: can it be changed, can it be transformed? or is it on a set evolutionary course determined by preceding causes … Are the thoughts and sensitivities that arise in it predestined, so to speak. Am I a biological robot? If not, why not?

[G L Wilson]

So this mind - whatever it is - (perhaps I can call it consciousness) - the question is: can it be changed, can it be transformed? or is it on a set evolutionary course determined by preceding causes … Are the thoughts and sensitivities that arise in it predestined, so to speak. Am I a biological robot? If not, why not?

You are an organic, homegrown, dinky-di original!

[ShoutGrace]

I'd think that whatever changes or transformations the "mind" undergoes could be quantified in chemical, electrical, purely physical brain changes (if we had the tools to observe and describe them). Whatever the "mind" is is entirely dependent on the physical brain on the materialistic view.

[Panglossian]

You are an organic, homegrown, dinky-di original!

I knew it. Thanks for the clarification.

[Panglossian]

I'd think that whatever changes or transformations the "mind" undergoes could be quantified in chemical, electrical, purely physical brain changes (if we had the tools to observe and describe them). Whatever the "mind" is is entirely dependent on the physical brain on the materialistic view.

So you're a biological robot?

[ShoutGrace]

Well, I don't take the materialistic view myself, actually.

I think that the general consensus of biologists is, however, that human beings aren't free to take or refrain from taking an action. "Free will" as we conceive it is an illusion.

[G L Wilson]

So you're a biological robot?

Man is no more a machine than the next animal.

[Panglossian]

Man is no more a machine than the next animal.

My two cats both do very similar things though in slightly different ways ... but the result is predictably the same: eat, sleep, stalk territory, defecate, eat, sleep, etc. And believe or not, I do the same. However, there is one crucial difference between they and I. One crucial distinguishing thing ... My mind uses language to go round and round in circles which, it could be said, makes them (my cats) purer than I. Furthermore, my thoughts are constantly lifted from yesterday, and guess what, they are not even mine.

[G L Wilson]

My two cats both do very similar things though in slightly different ways ... but the result is predictably the same: eat, sleep, stalk territory, defecate, eat, sleep, etc. And believe or not, I do the same. However, there is one crucial difference between they and I. One crucial distinguishing thing ... My mind uses language to go round and round in circles which, it could be said, makes them (my cats) purer than I. Furthermore, my thoughts are constantly lifted from yesterday, and guess what, they are not even mine.

If your thoughts are not your own, whose are they?

[lauditus]

If we all are anxious about the same question so I guess there is a truth and this truth is universal !

[Panglossian]

If your thoughts are not your own, whose are they?

My benighted mind is uncertain, but I'll say this …

Thoughts are inherited. Thoughts are adopted. Thoughts are borrowed. Most thoughts are repeated/imitated from others who have done likewise. New thought is extremely rare. Most people go through their entire lives never having an original thought. It’s not really our fault, but it kind of makes us secondhand people: repeaters and imitators of what has gone before, and what has gone before has created division and conflict. Similar thoughts to these have doubtless been thought at one time or another. Surely they are not my thoughts. The thinker is trapped in a neverending plagarism, arriving at considerations and conclusions which have been mulled over in the past ad nauseum, be they frivolous or profound. Can you think of an original thought? If we come into contact with what we believe is a new way of thinking, how new is it in actual fact? …


Well, I don't take the materialistic view myself, actually.

I think that the general consensus of biologists is, however, that human beings aren't free to take or refrain from taking an action. "Free will" as we conceive it is an illusion.

Understood. My take on the freedom of will is as follows: The will can only direct its flow freely when the mind is devoid of authority.

[MatthewLee1959]

The first debate is answering the question of is there such a thing as Truth. Is there a single unifying concept that we seek to discover. Is there something that is revealed through the study of religion, science, history and math? My belief as a Christian is that this truth does exist. In fact John 1:1 makes the assertion that this divine truth took on human flesh. From my perspective the historian, scientist, philosopher and theologian are all looking for the same thing from different perspectives. Unfortunately, most suffer from the same fatal flaw, they look to prove their preconceived dogmas instead of expanding themselves into new discoveries. It takes courage to move out of one's comfort zone and into new unexplored areas, but without that courage you can never be more than you already are.

[Bessie11]

Hello Everyone,
Your Believe is your truth.

[Panglossian]

Hello Everyone,
Your Believe is your truth.

What about Truth that doesn't involve belief?

[IceM]

I'm glad a thread I had posted a few months ago received so much attention. I hadn't been through here for a couple months.

I'm thankful for the discussion that has taken place. I just hope you all know I essentially rescind my OP. I don't hold those sentiments anymore.

Allow your discussion to continue.

[dwdean]

Is there a truth at all?

there is truth in the fact that one cannot intellectually define "truth."
i know that to be true.

[dwdean]

Hello Everyone,
Your Believe is your truth.

relativism is hopeless, sorry. that suggestion will be quickly shot down.

[G L Wilson]

relativism is hopeless, sorry. that suggestion will be quickly shot down.

Cultural relativism is hopeless, therefore I suppose all relativism is hopeless except for the fact that no truth is universal.

[libernaut]

truth   
[trooth] Show IPA
–noun, plural truths  
[troothz, trooths] Show IPA
.
1.
the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2.
conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3.
a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4.
the state or character of being true.
5.
actuality or actual existence.
6.
an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7.
honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8.
( often initial capital letter ) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9.
agreement with a standard or original.
10.
accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11.
Archaic . fidelity or constancy.

—Idiom
12.
in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.


Origin:
before 900; Middle English treuthe, Old English trēowth (cognate with Old Norse tryggth faith). See true, -th1

—Related forms
truth·less, adjective
truth·less·ness, noun
mis·truth, noun
non·truth, noun

—Can be confused:  truism, truth .

—Synonyms
1. fact. 2. veracity. 7. sincerity, candor, frankness. 10. precision, exactness.

—Antonyms
1. falsehood. 2, 4, 7. falsity.

[G L Wilson]

Truth is a surprise, lies shock.

[usman.khawar]

If your thoughts are not your own, whose are they?

Quran asnwer this question that Lord is giving thoughts of good and bad. our work is to differentiate between the two. the best part in doing so is to seek help from Lord.Who says if you read quran you will come to know what is right and what is wrong.

There is exam in both of two, good and bad.
some time good becomes more worse than bad. its example is like if someone do a good deed and in the end he gets proudier. think others cheap than this good end up at bad. Lord says proud is only for me. each n everything I gives you. than how can you be proudier ?? sometime bad becomes at the end good. like someone did bad thing, come to conclusion and saw the result of bad and select good. so the end result is more important.

in quran there is a verse who shows the absotue command of God " you cant even think or wish if I dont wish" do the experiment for sometime someday. sit calm and decide not to think anything.
this is also the blessing of God as we see if we take mind like a computer. we can have only those things which we feed in the computer. but mind gave a lot of things which was not feed in mind. if thoughts are our own than there could not be possible any new creation, verse, etc. our work is only consider, differentiate, understand and than pick the best one. which will decide our action and leads us to the result.

[usman.khawar]

i dont remember exactly the experiments name. its was actually did by some westerns who were surprised by some poetics verses who says like when i see rainbow my heart jumps. they were surprise about the heart functioning. there are different meanings of heart by different people. like science student will explain it just pumping blood organ.

that very research which tells that there are very fine and sophisticated receptors at heart which recieve signals. Same as in mind there are two kind of thoughts good and bad. same there are two lines coming from heart to mind and within seconds it happens. mind gives words and sentences to those lines.
kindly share the name of experiments if someone read about it. the poet was william wordsworth i think.
accept my apology to share incomplete work. i read it very carefully but long ago !

[usman.khawar]

Finding truth amongst a changing world isn't easy. How do I know it's even there? How do I know my rationalizations create a false pretense, ascribing a truth when nothing may exist? How do I know there is a beautiful system within the physical system that binds us to scientific, moral and emotional law? How will I know if I find it? And is it subjective? Is my truth any different from your truth?

Is there a truth at all?

yes there is truth. a reality. also there is a path leading to that reality and truth with open eyes.

[G L Wilson]

Quran asnwer this question that Lord is giving thoughts of good and bad. our work is to differentiate between the two. the best part in doing so is to seek help from Lord.Who says if you read quran you will come to know what is right and what is wrong.

There is exam in both of two, good and bad.
some time good becomes more worse than bad. its example is like if someone do a good deed and in the end he gets proudier. think others cheap than this good end up at bad. Lord says proud is only for me. each n everything I gives you. than how can you be proudier ?? sometime bad becomes at the end good. like someone did bad thing, come to conclusion and saw the result of bad and select good. so the end result is more important.

in quran there is a verse who shows the absotue command of God " you cant even think or wish if I dont wish" do the experiment for sometime someday. sit calm and decide not to think anything.
this is also the blessing of God as we see if we take mind like a computer. we can have only those things which we feed in the computer. but mind gave a lot of things which was not feed in mind. if thoughts are our own than there could not be possible any new creation, verse, etc. our work is only consider, differentiate, understand and than pick the best one. which will decide our action and leads us to the result.

Mohammed was a man. If he made no mistakes, he would be God. Would he not?

[usman.khawar]

my simple anwer is No.

i like to ask a counter question. angels also dont mistake. would you give them the status of God ? can God make a person who doesnt made any mistake ? do u think one dont make mistake is God than what about angels ?

well i read a thread in which u wrote same words"Muhammad was a man" and in reply someone quote a beautiful poem about Mohammad. did u read that ? ..

[G L Wilson]

my simple anwer is No.

i like to ask a counter question. angels also dont mistake. would you give them the status of God ? can God make a person who doesnt made any mistake ? do u think one dont make mistake is God than what about angels ?

well i read a thread in which u wrote same words"Muhammad was a man" and in reply someone quote a beautiful poem about Mohammad. did u read that ? ..

I read the poem.

In answer to your counter question, the Koran must be imperfect; for Mohammed was a man, was he not?

[usman.khawar]

I read the poem.

In answer to your counter question, the Koran must be imperfect; for Mohammed was a man, was he not?

you didnt read what i wrote "why i beleive in God" about Quran ? in short its perfect. no one can point out even a single mistake but some so called intellectuals tried to do that without knowledge. i dont like to explain it again n again. wanna read than read my posts in different threads, tc

[G L Wilson]

you didnt read what i wrote "why i beleive in God" about Quran ? in short its perfect. no one can point out even a single mistake but some so called intellectuals tried to do that without knowledge. i dont like to explain it again n again. wanna read than read my posts in different threads, tc

How could any holy book be perfect when men are mortal? is what I mean.

[usman.khawar]

Mortal ! well i know one thing that even me is not mortal even athiest, jews, chiristians, hindus etc too.everyone is immortal once created. no one dies. for me death is the start of new life. for me death is the death of worldy troubles, sorrows etc only. death is for me is the key to come out from this prison(world). one of my great teacher when he was dying, his son asked him how u r feeling? he replied, nothing just converting from one state to another!! . we can decieve ourselves, like a pigion who close his eyes to ignore the truth, like a peacock who hide his head in sand to disregard the reality. the danger which is coming. We, human, are not from the start but we live always. for unlimited time towards infinity. :)

[G L Wilson]

Mortal ! well i know one thing that even me is not mortal even athiest, jews, chiristians, hindus etc too.everyone is immortal once created. no one dies. for me death is the start of new life. for me death is the death of worldy troubles, sorrows etc only. death is for me is the key to come out from this prison(world). one of my great teacher when he was dying, his son asked him how u r feeling? he replied, nothing just converting from one state to another!! . we can decieve ourselves, like a pigion who close his eyes to ignore the truth, like a peacock who hide his head in sand to disregard the reality. the danger which is coming. We, human, are not from the start but we live always. for unlimited time towards infinity. :)

Okay, I will play your game. If men are not mortal, what is the need of a holy book?

[usman.khawar]

Okay, I will play your game. If men are not mortal, what is the need of a holy book?

what i'll get if you play my game ?
let me tell you about an incident. my teacher said once that a western person came here and said i was fond of truth. i studied jews, than christians than he named some other reilgions. and finally said i couldnt find the truth with argument, my teacher simply refused him by saying that you cant get the truth with having prejudice in heart n mind. why didnt u give a chance to islam, why didnt you give the chance to Muhammad why didnt you give the chance to quran??. He got ashamed. and after few months came back having a heart without prejudice and got the way. there is gift promissed by God in quran. that He gives his freinds on earth the state of mind " where there is no fear, greif and frustration". the western guy also confirmed this.

anyway ur inquiry " If men are not mortal, what is the need of a holy book? " well this is indeed a very good question. and the simple asnwer is to have know how. what is good and what is bad. what was the truth n lies. straight way. how to live on earth so that you can live in unimaginable comfort n pleasure for ever. as immortal.

[G L Wilson]

what i'll get if you play my game ?

Damnation, probably.


anyway ur inquiry " If men are not mortal, what is the need of a holy book? " well this is indeed a very good question. and the simple asnwer is to have know how. what is good and what is bad. what was the truth n lies. straight way. how to live on earth so that you can live in unimaginable comfort n pleasure for ever. as immortal.

Then men are mortal.

[cl154576]

I think all religious, artistic, and philosophical works (and possibly others) are searches for truth. The perfection lies in the attempt but not the result. I look to them as examples left by others, sometimes as guides for my own search, but not definitive truth (if definitive truth exists).

[Crass the head]

Read some Plato. He'll clear up everything.

[BienvenuJDC]

IceM, you're not the first to question this.

John 18:38, Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”

[G L Wilson]

IceM, you're not the first to question this.

John 18:38, Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”

In other words, who lies?

[Panglossian]

Perhaps the truth is this: all being is on a predetermined course.

[Junglord]

Perhaps the truth is this: all being is on a predetermined course.

That would be a boring truth.

To adress the original post, the things you describe in your daily life and the way you percieve it are really no different from anothers, as is your questionings of truth. I myself related to a lot of what you said. Though to question what is truth is like asking what is beyond a blackhole.

The only truths which we see as certain are ones which we create, science is not certain nor is religion nor is self belief.

Can't argue with Descartes though: "Cogito ergo sum".

[Junglord]

my simple anwer is No.

i like to ask a counter question. angels also dont mistake. would you give them the status of God ? can God make a person who doesnt made any mistake ? do u think one dont make mistake is God than what about angels ?

well i read a thread in which u wrote same words"Muhammad was a man" and in reply someone quote a beautiful poem about Mohammad. did u read that ? ..

Angels do make mistakes, they have freewill like us.
"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment" - 2 Peter 2:4

[G L Wilson]

Can't argue with Descartes though: "Cogito ergo sum".

I can. But when you have argued the point for the umpteenth time, it gets tiring.

[usman.khawar]

Angels do make mistakes, they have freewill like us.
"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment" - 2 Peter 2:4

well according to your argument provided by your holy book, its not mentioned that angels have freewill.

well if i accept it for a while that they sinned just becoz they have free will. than i ask "what do you think about all the systems in and outer world are running in perfect way or in balanced way?

if you say yes than it will against ur statement coz if angels have free will and they can chose bad things as well and can do sins than its impossible for a perfect system. and we see for a long long time everything is running in most balanced way.
if you say No than obviously its wrong answer as we see the universe is in perfect balance.

what i beleive or muslims believe that angles are like robots. they have been assigned the duties to run all the systems. they do what they have been asked/ordered to do. they are far away from wishes and wants or exams of selection between right and wrong. infact, they are all innocent.

its only human in all the universes who has been given this gift (in islam its "amant e ilm", if some one translate it in english that would be help i m not getting the exact translation of "amanat").

Mind which actual work is to distinguish btw right and wrong, find the truth, recogonize the ultimate reality. mind selects its way among so many well actually from two i.g good and bad. due to this gift human is superior from other creations if human uses it in right way, if human uses it in search of Lord, in remembrance of Lord, and declare that my life's 1st priority is God. whole life priority. with the passage of time priorities change like for students its studies, than job, than childrens etc but what about the whole life's prioirty? on which next unlimited life depends upon. the ist step is to understand mentally that my ist priority is Lord coz He created me for Himself and i have to move in next world into next life. everyone dies so i'll do. no one live on earth forever. i have to give explanation what i did with the gift. whether i recogonize Lord or ignore Him? whether i accept Him or deny Him? whether i try to get nearer to Him?

Some people can give a cheaper argument against the perfect system like force mejure, like floods, famines, earthquacks etc only on earth. they cant/couldnt find any flaw or faults in outer world. there vision doent allow them to look ahead or see in wider scope.
We see there are billions of systems are running on earth as well. For me its like punishment. punishment for good so that whole humankind think about Lord. Who can do everything against your precautions. for those who think themselves as god. who want to run the world from their order. they dont even bother to think that Lord is the owner of the earth.
At individual level as well, God sometimes gives punishments on earth so that one stop for a while and think and consider about Him and correct himself so for me this kind of punishment is actually the blessiing of God as well.

[IceM]

I have come to the conclusion in my life that Christ Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I have become an evangelical Christian, and Christ is the embodiment of truth.

[ssubterranean]

So, anything can be concluded so far?

[tonywalt]

Naa, let's start over again

[newby]

What do you define as ''truth''?