Find More Important than Dead Sea Scrolls

[KillCarneyKlans]

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2011/04/02
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/70-metal-books-Jordan-cave-change-view-Biblical-history.html
Seventy metal books found in cave in Jordan could change our view of Biblical history
Could this be the biggest find since the Dead Sea Scrolls?
[Paleo-Hebrew-Hasmonean-Dialect-Encoded- It would conform Gospel Accounts]

An ancient collection of 70 tiny books, lead pages bound with wire, could unlock some of the secrets of the earliest days of Christianity.
Academics are divided as to their authenticity but say that if verified, they could prove as pivotal as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947.

On pages not much bigger than a credit card, are images, symbols and words that appear to refer to the Messiah and, possibly even, to the Crucifixion and Resurrection.
Adding to the intrigue, many of the books are sealed, prompting academics to speculate they are actually the lost collection of codices mentioned in the Bible’s Book Of Revelation.

If the dating is verified, the books would be among the earliest Christian documents, predating the writings of St Paul. Contemporary accounts of the final years of Jesus’s life has excited scholars – although their enthusiasm is tempered by the fact that experts have previously been fooled by sophisticated fakes. David Elkington, a British scholar of ancient religious history and archeology, and one of the few to have examined the books, says they could be ‘the major discovery of Christian history’.

The Jordanian Government is now working at the highest levels to repatriate and safeguard the collection. Philip Davies, emeritus professor of biblical studies at Sheffield University, said there was powerful evidence that the books have a Christian origin in plates cast into a picture map of the holy city of Jerusalem.There is a cross in the foreground, and behind it is what has to be the tomb [of Jesus], a small building with an opening, and behind that the walls of the city.
‘There are walls depicted on other pages of these books too and they almost certainly refer to Jerusalem. It is a Christian crucifixion taking place outside the city walls.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/70-metal-books-Jordan-cave-change-view-Biblical-history.html#ixzz1IRPpEqYl
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/30/article-1371290-002672F900000258-425_634x385.jpg

[The Atheist]

Probably a little early to tell what significance the find might mean.

The Mail article is telling:

could unlock some of the secrets

if verified, they could prove

appear to refer to

could contain contemporary accounts

they could be ‘the major discovery of Christian history’

[prendrelemick]

In what way were the Dead Sea Scrolls pivotal? apart from in the closed world of acedemia that is. I can't see any affect they have had on Christianity. Will it be any different with these booklets?

[togre]

The very fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls changed nothing is important. While there will never be sufficient evidence to convince doubters or skeptics, the Dead Sea Scrolls disproved a number of the wilder claims about the format and age of the Old Testament and Jewish thought around the time of Christ. Nothing terribly exciting, but it limits the ways you can say the Bible is wrong and still have at least silence backing you.

I suspect these documents will be digested over 5-10 years if they are legit. There will be scholarly publications about them and popular publications. There will be Dateline specials and tabloid pieces, but in the end nothing we know will be significantly changed except a few geeky details most people don't know or care about.

Or they will be fake.

[OrphanPip]

The very fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls changed nothing is important. While there will never be sufficient evidence to convince doubters or skeptics, the Dead Sea Scrolls disproved a number of the wilder claims about the format and age of the Old Testament and Jewish thought around the time of Christ. Nothing terribly exciting, but it limits the ways you can say the Bible is wrong and still have at least silence backing you.


What wilder claims? The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that Biblical texts were regularly revised...

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

If they're fake, they look pretty damn good.

[togre]

What wilder claims? The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that Biblical texts were regularly revised...

Bull. Examples or it didn't happen.

Seriously.

[OrphanPip]

Bull. Examples or it didn't happen.

Seriously.

The Dead Sea scrolls omit the Book of Esther, and seemed to have considered several currently apocryphal text as canonical. There was clearly debate, for centuries mind you, between Hebrew sects over what should or should not be included, it's a bit absurd to think that these people always picked the divinely inspired books to keep around.

Moreover, the Dead Sea Scrolls were part of a library, and they contained multiple copies of the Biblical books, actual variant copies which were different from each other. Several differences in minor word choice, or phrases are made, so much that it's tedious to read about them. There are also numerous corrections and rewrites present in the scrolls.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=RBSO35k25_YC&pg=PA323&dq=%22dead+sea+scrolls+and+the+septuagint%22,+%22p eter+flint%22&lr=&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Besides that, here is a breakdown of ways the DSS differs and agrees generally with the Masoretic Text and the Greek translation.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/sources/deadseascrolls.htm

What this tells us is that a notion of a fixed divinely inspired canon that had to be dutifully and masterfully preserved because it was God's direct word, did not come into being until after the DSS. Multiple version of Biblical text have existed likely since the first days it was written down from oral stories.

[Gladys]

Since the metal plates were discovered in Jordan five years ago, it's odd there's so little on the internet about them. I did find: metal-books-found-in-cave-in-jordan.html (http://www.yahwehyeshua.com/2011/03/metal-books-found-in-cave-in-jordan.html)



Besides that, here is a breakdown of ways the DSS differs and agrees generally with the Masoretic Text and the Greek translation.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible...seascrolls.htm

Regarding the Dead Sea Scrolls, I'm fascinated by the proposition: Now Scholars think the LXX has important readings that are superior to the MT. The LXX is now very important in textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible..

Wiki states that the Dead Sea Scrolls are a millennium older than the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible and half a millennium older than the Greek!

[OrphanPip]

I think it's because they used to think the Masoretic text, which is the current basis for the Hebrew Bible, was better preserved and more accurate than the Greek translation, which was generally regarded as loosely done and embellished. However, the fact that some parts from the Greek translation that disagreed with the Masoretic text, but agree with the DSS suggest that there were multiple version of Hebrew Bibles hanging around 2000 years ago.

I think the scholarly consensus is that a concept of a divine text as unchangeable is later than late antiquity. The Hebrews of the 2nd Temple likely had a different conception of divine inspiration, they didn't perceive edits or "improvements" of the text as being wrong in the same way current Christians and Jews tend to treat the text.

Edit: I think this only really challenges the religious conviction of literalist sects though.

[KillCarneyKlans]

Sorry been away, and thought no-one was paying attention to the Newb (Me) ?!?

The very fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls changed nothing is important. While there will never be sufficient evidence to convince doubters or skeptics, the Dead Sea Scrolls disproved a number of the wilder claims about the format and age of the Old Testament and Jewish thought around the time of Christ. Nothing terribly exciting, but it limits the ways you can say the Bible is wrong and still have at least silence backing you.

I pretty much agree with you on that Togra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah
The oldest surviving manuscript of Isaiah was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls: dating from about a century before the time of Jesus, it is substantially identical with the Masoretic version.

Maybe recopied, later exile and post exile writing added or expanded to round out the prophecies ... in the beginnings of the rabbinical age. OrphanPip (Can you tell me more about this)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Lead_Codices
http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_03_27_archive.html#7454369078247746754
http://curiouspresbyterian.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/the-jordanian-fake-metal-codices-who-is-david-elkington-and-what-are-his-motives/

This article supports the skeptics view, the thing that puzzles me the most is that this is a 5 year old find, but surely all 70 couldn't be faked, could they? That seems to me like a lot of work, material, manpower, secrecy ... and for what? Why not just 1 or 2, why 70?

[Gladys]

Why not just 1 or 2, why 70?

Maybe:


Hence 7 x 10 signifies perfect spiritual order carried out with all spiritual power and significance. Both spirit and order are greatly emphasised.


From http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/70.html

[The Atheist]

Are there actually 70?

Aunty Beeb (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421) says "A group of 70 or so..."

The Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Lead_Codices) given says "Elkington stated that the find was of up to 70 ring-bound books."

Possibly a little early to speculate on what the final number may mean.

[Drkshadow03]

The very fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls changed nothing is important. While there will never be sufficient evidence to convince doubters or skeptics, the Dead Sea Scrolls disproved a number of the wilder claims about the format and age of the Old Testament and Jewish thought around the time of Christ. Nothing terribly exciting, but it limits the ways you can say the Bible is wrong and still have at least silence backing you.

I suspect these documents will be digested over 5-10 years if they are legit. There will be scholarly publications about them and popular publications. There will be Dateline specials and tabloid pieces, but in the end nothing we know will be significantly changed except a few geeky details most people don't know or care about.

Or they will be fake.

So far the quick cursory evidence from qualified scholars is that it's fake. Here from Paleobabble (http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2011/04/lead-codices-update/) quoting other Biblical scholars on the reasons the codices seem to be a fraud.

[KillCarneyKlans]

Yes, I understand 70(-74) nations as the Hebrews classified the table of nations. Yes, that is significant, as well as gematriacally.

[Gladys]

Here from Paleobabble quoting other Biblical scholars on the reasons the codices seem to be a fraud.

From http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_04_03_archive.html#3389491554050729684


One can hardly blame the newspapers: no editor could reasonably be expected to resist the combination of Jesus, the Kabbalah, mysterious death threats and a secret code. But it is a bit depressing that no one thought to consult any one of the dozens of British specialists in the field. As the Jewish Chronicle made clear when it originally reported on the find back in early March, those professional scholars who have had sight of these objects have dismissed them as obvious fakes. There are various reasons why we bother to fund research in the arts and humanities and this episode could have been one of them.

Much ado about nothing?

[The Atheist]

So far the quick cursory evidence from qualified scholars is that it's fake.

I was just about to come back and say that!

Here's another site with extensive evidence:

http://rogueleaf.com/biblioblog-library/current-issues/archaeology/jordinian-lead-codices/

And it looks very much like a publicity stunt from here:

http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/