Yet Another 'Translation' Thread--Homer's Iliad and Odyssey

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

It pains me to make yet another one of these, but take it as a compliment fellow LitNetters--I value your advice very much.

So, you know how it goes. I want to get a verse translation of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey. What do you recommend?

[Veho]

Why don't you do your own research instead of cluttering the forum?

Joke (I know, not a very funny one). I second this question. I have a prose translation of The Odyssey but would prefer to read it in verse form first.

[mortalterror]

Fitzgerald or Fagles, same as the Aeneid.

[Seasider]

Alexander Pope translated both The Iliad and The Odyssey and since he is one of my favourite poets, I love it. Dryden translated Book 6 of The Iliad in which Hector says farewell to his wife and son and it is a real tear-jerker.
Fagles' version is a good,faithful and competent translation but it does not move me in the way that AP and JD do.

[TheFifthElement]

I read the Fitzgerald translation of The Odyssey earlier this year and found it both enjoyable and accessible. I think you might find your experience depends on personal preference - I downloaded some sample pages of the three major translations (Pope, Fagles & Fitgerald) and found that I preferred Fitzgerald so opted for that one. It might be an idea to try the same thing, that way you'd know which one appealed to you the most.

[Seasider]

What a sensible person. Shop around for best results.:hurray:

[dfloyd]

Pope was only about 4'7" tall but he was a giant in the Greek classics. He suffered a spine injury and never grew past it. His was a remarkable intellect even though he had to wear a painful back brace his waking hours.

Another early translator, Chapman, had high marks. I think Keats wrote a tribute called 'On Viewing Chapman's Iliad'.

Remember that the modern translators, such as Fagles, did not tranlate in rhyming verse, but in English free verse. For rhyming verse, Pope is the most enjoyable. I have read Fagles' The Iliad, but it is just not as enjoyable as Pope. T. E. Lawrence, of Lawrence of Arabia fame, did a prose translation of The Odyssey, but again Pope wins hands down. For the Aeneid, I like John Dryden.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I'm always weary of translations that maintain a rhyme scheme, because it seems like those texts would be a lot less faithful to the original text, essentially forcing or making up rhymes where they shouldn't be just to make the English version "sound" more like the original.

[Seasider]

Why not stick with a prose rendering then? EV Rieu for example.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Because I think a prose rendering makes it too much unlike the original. I still like a poetic feel, and I don't think it needs rhyme to maintain that feel (when reading long poems, I usually prefer no rhyming, anyways. It usually distracts me).

[wessexgirl]

I read the Fitzgerald translation of The Odyssey earlier this year and found it both enjoyable and accessible. I think you might find your experience depends on personal preference - I downloaded some sample pages of the three major translations (Pope, Fagles & Fitgerald) and found that I preferred Fitzgerald so opted for that one. It might be an idea to try the same thing, that way you'd know which one appealed to you the most.

I have the Fitzgerald version of The Iliad, and Walter Shewring for The Odyssey. I have to say I haven't read them yet, but I went for them primarily because I like the series, (Oxford World Classics), but I had read good things of them. The Shewring is told in prose, and has its supporters, including the late Anthony Burgess, but I won't know until I read them! Scanning the pages of both, I don't foresee that they will be a bad read, but as I'm not an ancient Greek, (only an ancient Brit), what do I know? :smile5:

[ladderandbucket]

I enjoyed the Fagles translation of both. I don't know how they match up to the originals but they were relatively easy to read. I think you would describe his style as 'muscular' or 'dynamic'.

Also they come in nice big editions with lots of notes. The books felt good in my hands while I was reading.

[mortalterror]

Cowper, Chapman, and Pope are the most noted pre-modern translations. Pope's is the most famous for it's finesse and beauty and also the most infamous for the liberties it takes.

[Veho]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Richmond Lattimore translation? I've read good reviews but no one has mentioned it on here.

Fitzgerald's and Pope's sound the most promising so far.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Cowper, Chapman, and Pope are the most noted pre-modern translations. Pope's is the most famous for it's finesse and beauty and also the most infamous for the liberties it takes.
I always prefer trueness to the original over changing it for aesthetic purposes, to a point.

[JCamilo]

It is always arguable if it is true or not, the thing is that Pope and Chapman translations are somehow classics of english language on their own.

[mortalterror]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Richmond Lattimore translation? I've read good reviews but no one has mentioned it on here.

It's accurate, and the guy is a good academic, but his translations are just flat and lifeless. I looked at his Iliad and his translation of Pindar's Odes last week. They're just boring. Same with his partner David Grene and that series of Greek tragedies they translated together. The are everywhere you go and they're second rate translators. When you see the names Fagles, Fitzgerald, Arrowsmith, or Murray you know you're in good hands.

[Veho]

It's accurate, and the guy is a good academic, but his translations are just flat and lifeless. I looked at his Iliad and his translation of Pindar's Odes last week. They're just boring. Same with his partner David Grene and that series of Greek tragedies they translated together. The are everywhere you go and they're second rate translators. When you see the names Fagles, Fitzgerald, Arrowsmith, or Murray you know you're in good hands.

Thanks for the advice; you could've just saved me from some very unwelcome dreariness. I ordered Fitzgerald's translation of The Iliad instead.

[mal4mac]

... second rate translators. When you see the names Fagles, Fitzgerald, Arrowsmith, or Murray you know you're in good hands.

I didn't like Fagles translation of the Iliad, finding it overblown and wordy. I gave up, looked at others, and ended by reading Rieu's clear, restrained and (reasonably) concise prose translation.

[Gilliatt Gurgle]

I just took a look at my copies.
My Odyssey is a Palmer translation and my copy of the Iliad is a modern translation (1963) by Ennis Rees. Palmer and Rees are the only translations I have read and was satisfied. Who knows, in time I may try another for comparison.

.

[mortalterror]

Chapman(1614):
Achilles’ bane full wrath resound, O Goddesse, that imposd
Infinite sorrowes on the Greekes, and many brave soules losd
From breasts Heroique—sent them farre, to that invisible cave
That no light comforts; and their lims to dogs and vultures gave.
To all which Jove’s will gave effect;

Pope(1720):
Achilles’ wrath, to Greece the direful spring
Of woes unnumber’d, heavenly goddess, sing!
That wrath which hurl’d to Pluto’s gloomy reign
The souls of mighty chiefs untimely slain;
Whose limbs unburied on the naked shore,
Devouring dogs and hungry vultures tore.
Since great Achilles and Atrides strove,
Such was the sovereign doom, and such the will of Jove!

Cowper(1791):
Achilles sing, O Goddess! Peleus’ son;
His wrath pernicious, who ten thousand woes
Caused to Achaia’s host, sent many a soul
Illustrious into Ades premature,
And Heroes gave (so stood the will of Jove)
To dogs and to all ravening fowls a prey,
When fierce dispute had separated once
The noble Chief Achilles from the son
Of Atreus, Agamemnon, King of men.

Butler(1888):
Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans. Many a brave soul did it send hurrying down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and vultures, for so were the counsels of Jove fulfilled....

E.V. Rieu(1950):
Anger- sing, goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that accursed anger, which brought the Greeks endless sufferings and sent the mighty souls of many warriors to Hades, leaving their bodies as carrion for the dogs and a feast for the birds; and Zeus' purpose was fulfilled.

Lattimore(1951):
Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilles
and its devastation, which put pains thousand-fold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished....

Fitzgerald(1963):
Anger be now your song, immortal one,
Akhilleus' anger, doomed and ruinous,
that caused the Akhaians loss on bitter loss
and crowded brave souls into the undergloom,
leaving so many dead men-carrion
for dogs and birds; and the will of Zeus was done.

Fagles(1990):
Rage—Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles,
murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,
hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,
great fighters' souls, but made their bodies carrion,
feasts for the dogs and birds,
and the will of Zeus was moving toward its end....

[mortalterror]

Now the Odyssey.

Chapman(1616):
THE man, O Muse, inform, that many a way
Wound with his wisdom to his wished stay;
That wandered wondrous far, when he the town
Of sacred Troy had sack'd and shivered down;
The cities of a world of nations,
With all their manners, minds, and fashions,
He saw and knew; at sea felt many woes,
Much care sustained, to save from overthrows
Himself and friends in their retreat for home;
But so their fates he could not overcome,
Though much he thirsted it. O men unwise,
They perish'd by their own impieties,
That in their hunger's rapine would not shun
The oxen of the lofty-going Sun,
Who therefore from their eyes the day bereft
Of safe return.

Pope(1725):
The man for wisdom’s various arts renown’d,
Long exercised in woes, O Muse! resound;
Who, when his arms had wrought the destined fall
Of sacred Troy, and razed her heaven-built wall,
Wandering from clime to clime, observant stray’d,
Their manners noted, and their states survey’d,
On stormy seas unnumber’d toils he bore,
Safe with his friends to gain his natal shore:
Vain toils! their impious folly dared to prey
On herds devoted to the god of day;
The god vindictive doom’d them never more
(Ah, men unbless’d!) to touch that natal shore.

Cowper(1791):
Muse make the man thy theme, for shrewdness famed
And genius versatile, who far and wide
A Wand’rer, after Ilium overthrown,
Discover’d various cities, and the mind
And manners learn’d of men, in lands remote.
He num’rous woes on Ocean toss’d, endured,
Anxious to save himself, and to conduct
His followers to their home; yet all his care
Preserved them not; they perish’d self-destroy’d
By their own fault; infatuate! who devoured
The oxen of the all-o’erseeing Sun,
And, punish’d for that crime, return’d no more.

Palmer(1886):
SPEAK TO me, Muse, of the adventurous man who wandered long after he sacked the sacred citadel of Troy. Many the men whose towns he saw, whose ways he proved; and many a pang he bore in his own breast at sea while struggling for his life and his men’s safe return. Yet even so, by all his zeal, he did not save his men; for through their own perversity they perished—fools! who devoured the kine of the exalted Sun. Wherefore he took away the day of their return.

Morris(1887):
Tell me, O Muse, of the Shifty, the man who wandered afar,
After the Holy Burg, Troy-town, he had wasted with war;
He saw the towns of menfolk, and the mind of men did he learn;
As he warded his life in the world, and his fellow-farers’ return,
Many a grief of heart on the deep-sea flood he bore,
Nor yet might he save his fellows, for all that he longed for it sore.
They died of their own souls’ folly, for witless as they were
They ate up the beasts of the Sun, the Rider of the Air,
And he took away from them all their dear returning day;

Butler(1900):
Tell me, O muse, of that ingenious hero who travelled far and wide after he had sacked the famous town of Troy. Many cities did he visit, and many were the nations with whose manners and customs he was acquainted; moreover he suffered much by sea while trying to save his own life and bring his men safely home; but do what he might he could not save his men, for they perished through their own sheer folly in eating the cattle of the Sun-god Hyperion; so the god prevented them from ever reaching home.

Rieu(1945):
Tell me, Muse, the story of that resourceful man who was driven to wander far and wide after he had sacked the holy citadel of Troy. He saw the cities of many people and he learnt their ways. He suffered great anguish on the high seas in his struggles to preserve his life and bring his comrades home. But he failed to save those comrades, in spite of all his efforts. It was their own transgression that brought them to their doom, for in their folly they devoured the oxen of Hyperion the Sun-god and he saw to it that they would never return.

Fitzgerald(1961):
Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story
of that man skilled in all ways of contending,
the wanderer, harried for years on end,
after he plundered the stronghold
on the proud height of Troy.
He saw the townlands
and learned the minds of many distant men,
and weathered many bitter nights and days
in his deep heart at sea, while he fought only
to save his life, to bring his shipmates home.
But not by will nor valor could he save them,
for their own recklessness destroyed them all —
children and fools, they killed and feasted on
the cattle of Lord Hêlios, the Sun,
and he who moves all day through the heaven
took from their eyes the dawn of their return. . . .

Lattimore(1965):
Tell me, Muse, of the man of many ways, who was driven
far journeys, after he had sacked Troy’s sacred citadel.
Many were they whose cities he saw, whose minds he learned of,
many the pains he suffered in his spirit on the wide sea,
struggling for his own life and the homecoming of his companions.
Even so he could not save his companions, hard though
he strove to; they were destroyed by their own wild recklessness,
fools, who devoured the oxen of Helios, the Sun God,
and he took away the day of their homecoming. . . .

Fagles(1996):
Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns
driven time and again off course, once he had plundered
the hallowed heights of Troy.
Many cities of men he saw and learned their minds,
many pains he suffered, heartsick on the open sea,
fighting to save his life and bring his comrades home.
But he could not save them from disaster, hard as he strove –
the recklessness of their own ways destroyed them all,
the blind fools, they devoured the cattle of the Sun
and the Sungod blotted out the day of their return. . . .

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Wow, thanks for going through all the trouble, mortalterror. I think I prefer Fagles. And this was quite useful, because I was going to get the Fitzgerald translation.

[Rores28]

If its between Fagles and Fitzgerald go with Fitzgerald. I have no idea about the "accuracy" of the translation but Fitzgerald's poetry comes alive and seems to embody what I think of when I hear epic. This is not so with Fagles, whose poetry is pretty lifeless.

Especially if its your first time I'd say go with the greatest aesthetic appeal. If you really find it interesting and want to slog through a more academic translation where you can savor all of Homer's linguistic wit, you can revisit it later.

I've read both from Fagles and was deeply unmoved. I'm now reading the Aeneid by Fitzgerald and am much more satisfied. (Yes I know different authors and languages)

[laymonite]

I just finished the Fagles translation of The Iliad a couples day ago, and it was the most "powerfully poetic" version of the three I've read: Butler (prose), some translation I had to read in high school, and Fagles. There is also a whopper of an introduction (~77 pages) in the Penguin Deluxe Fagles version that is very good. Enjoy!

[mortalterror]

Wow, thanks for going through all the trouble, mortalterror. I think I prefer Fagles. And this was quite useful, because I was going to get the Fitzgerald translation.

No problem, man. I love this stuff.

[mal4mac]

The "Oxford Guide" says "all of these modern versions require a good deal of effort from the reader: they present enough of the original to us to guess how much better Homer must be."

Sound about right.

So don't expect too much :)

I found Fagles and Rieu a lot less fun, a lot less of an aesthetic experience, than reading Dickens or Shakespeare.

OG recommends two shortened versions, which it thinks preserves the energy of the original better: I.A. Richards Iliad, in a version aimed at foreign readers of English. And Picard's Odyssey, aimed at children. I'll probably read these when/if I re-read. Can't see any reason to do the heavy lifting more than once (at most!)

OG picks out Rieu as 'tolerable to read at length', which was my overall impression. At least I managed to finish it, and felt it was probably good for me, like bran flakes...

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Hmmm. Maybe I will go with Fitzgerald. I just can't decide! :lol: