Newbie needs help with "Gravity's Rainbow"

[zzjing]

Hi! I am new here. And I need some help with Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. Specifically, I have several questions about the paragraph on page 13 (Penguin 2006 Deluxe Edition):

1. What is the meaning of "...you're apt now and then to get a bit of lime-green in with your rose, as they say"? Is this an idiom of some sort? Google found no reference except to the novel itself. :(

2. What does "...and goes back to when he was carrying, everywhere he went, the mark of Youthful Folly growing in an unmistakable Mongoloid point, right out of the middle of his head" mean? The mark of Youthful Folly is explained in many places, but what is a Mongoloid point? Again, no reference can be found.

3. What about "...your sound will be the sizzling night..."? Is it supposed to be poetic? Out of the mouth of a bum?

4. And lastly, "...they'd been part of the usual list of prizes in a Competition grown crowded and perilous, out of some indoor intervention of charcoal streets...". I cannot make sense of this at all. What is he talking about?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I haven't read it, but plan to in a few weeks or so, and I plan to utilize this site. (http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_gr.html) Maybe it will be helpful to you.

[My2cents]

I'm sure there's someone who might know, but they beat the crap out of me.

I think Pynchon was quoted as saying that upon finishing Gravity's Rainbow that he himself was mystified with portions of the book.

[billl]

3. "Mongoloid point in the middle of the head" this is a reference to a chromosonal condition/birth defect now known as Down Syndrome. I don't know the whole origin of this use of the word Mongoloid for this, but I'm pretty sure that the scientists or doctors that came up with the word felt that the children that had the condition looked like they were from a different race. I can personally tell you that Mongolian people don't look like Down Syndrome people, but I guess the early researchers (19th Century) maybe hadn't actually seen many of them or something.

Anyhow, nobody uses the term Mongoloid anymore. It's a reference to Down Syndrome, and the pointed head is a result of the condition.

EDIT: I am not a doctor or expert on Down Syndrome or anything, by the way. The "pointed head" might be the result of some other genetic disorder, and maybe Pynchon (or his character) is getting things a bit wrong, or using the term to refer to the mentally disabled in general; maybe it isn't *actually* Down Syndrome.

[zzjing]

Anyhow, nobody uses the term Mongoloid anymore. It's a reference to Down Syndrome, and the pointed head is a result of the condition.


I think you are right. i have found a reference to something called "Mongoloid fold" that's related to Down Syndrome. Mongoloid point should be the same kind of usage.

So does this mean Pirate actually had a pointy head when he was young? Or is this just an elaborate figure of speech?

[billl]

Since he's a Captain in the U.S. military, it must be a figure of speech. If you're looking at the thing thematically, I guess the pointy-head is meant to resemble a rocket, and the idea that his Youthful Folly is compared to a mental development disorder (and is visibly recognizable) is all maybe shorthand for how one begins as being simple, inexperienced, and easy to read, but then becomes more complex (and dangerous? nearer to a conclusion/death?) or something. The range of his history of memories is suggested to have a trajectory (rocket-like) through time.

I never finished the book, I don't really remember the character's introduction, and I have no idea about what would be going on with him when he is reintroduced much later in the book (which I gather happens).

[My2cents]

Since he's a Captain in the U.S. military

Actually Pirate Prentice is British. That much I know.

[billl]

I stand corrected.

[KilgoreT]

I read the book recently...but don't have it in front of me, the library wanted it back. Even if I did, I don't think I could answer your questions. I think I managed to get the gist of the book, but there were so many little things like this that stumped me.

[zzjing]

Thanks, billl. That was a very nice summary. It makes a lot more sense now.

KilgoreT, a Vonnegut fan, I presume? I love Vonnegut as well. As for GR, I too borrowed it from the library the first time and wasn't able to finish reading it. Now I have bought my own copy, as well as the Companion. As a matter of fact, I am trying to translate it into Chinese so that my mother can enjoy it as well, since she doesn't know any English. There is already a published Chinese edition available, but as you might imagine, it's full of errors of every kind.

[billl]

That sounds like a great project zzjing! You really must love the book if you're going to translate the whole thing. Depending on how good your Chinese is (in particular at doing the difficult job of carrying over metaphors and cultural specifics, and the general 'gist' of this sort of book in as similar language as possible), you might end up doing a particular service to whatever interested Chinese readership there is and will be.

Since you're a big fan, I'd think there'd be a good chance you're better placed to make the difficult choices than the previous translator was. At the very least, your mother must be having an interesting time with you on this. Best of luck, and keep us posted on your progress.

[KilgoreT]

I am indeed a Vonnegut fan, and it's always great to talk to another, zzjing. I agree with billl, it does sound like a great project you are working on, very challenging I would imagine. I had the book long overdue because it took me so long to read, and I had to request it from another library because mine doesn't have a copy, but I am going to request it again because I want to take a look and see if I can possibly help you a out a little here. I thought the book was great and it would be good to help others be able to access it.

[zzjing]

billl and KilgoreT, it is indeed a very challenging project. So I guess I shouldn't be too hard on the translators of the presumably authorized Chinese edition. But they did make a lot of rudimentary mistakes, let alone doing a reasonable job on the more subtle and obscure parts of the text. My Chinese should be OK, since I was born and raised in China, although it was not my strongest subject while I was in school. :redface: Unfortunately, something is always lost in translation, but I am trying to get as much across as I can.

I have just finished translating the first two episodes of Part 1 of the book. It was tough going at spots, but I am enjoying it more and more. More importantly, now I actually understand what Pynchon is talking about, since translating it forces me to actually try to understand what I might just gloss over during a normal casual reading session. And believe me, the book is much more enjoyable once you know what it is actually talking about. :)

KilgoreT: email me at mikezjing on gmail to receive a surprise gift. ;)