When is a poem complete?

[Armel P]

Does anyone else have a problem deciding that a poem is finished? I find myself revisiting, reading them month after month to think of changing, eliminating and adding elements. Am I supposed to do that until it feels right or am I supposed to just walk away after a while and concede that I'm no longer contributing any improvements to the poems? It's frustrating me. I don't have many poems as I only started to write them again recently, but those that I have I consider "done-ish."

[blank|verse]

Paul Valery said: 'A poem is never finished, only abandoned.' I would suggest when you know you can abandon a poem, or rather, cut the apron strings that tie it to you, then it's ready. Only you can know when this is. Elizabeth Bishop is famous (in poetry terms!) for leaving poems unfinished for years until she felt able to complete it. Wordsworth was an inveterate tinkerer and would amend poems long after they were first published (eg. 'I wandered lonely as a cloud'; 'The Prelude'). For what it's worth, I abandon my poems when I get bored! Not very professional, I know, but then, neither am I.

[Armel P]

It feels like I need to feel that it's done before I, say, show people or submit for publication. I guess I'll need to try to not feel so bad about tinkering. I'm not in bad company afterall.

[Paulclem]

Keep the various versions, and then decide which is the best at a later, more objective time. I'm tempted to revisit old poems to see if I can improve on them, but then they would be instilled with a different sense reflecting my different perspective. The answer is to keep each version.

[Armel P]

Keep the various versions, and then decide which is the best at a later, more objective time. I'm tempted to revisit old poems to see if I can improve on them, but then they would be instilled with a different sense reflecting my different perspective. The answer is to keep each version.

I haven't tried that. I'll give it a whirl. Thanks for your response.

[Jassy Melson]

Paulclem is right. Keep all the versions one does with a poem. Then in the future go back and choose the best--or combine all of them into one poem.. The versions are one's poetic and inspirational endeavors. The revisions are one's critical faculties at work. There is a big difference between the two. But a poem to be complete needs both inspiration and revision.

[byronhbrown]

Most poem are open-ended. They're like movies. There's an option of putting a sequel to it.

[efdaney]

I recently read Sylvia Plath's Ariel: The Restored edition. The book features all her corrections of many of the poems therein. She, in fact, editted those poems several times over.

I do the same thing with poems I wrote even 5 or so years ago. Sometimes I just read over them and find them stupid. so I just change them then. I think when you read over something that you wrote some time ago, you are somehow getting a fresher impression of the work. It is easier to tell if something might not make sense to another person.

[Paulclem]

I tried to revise one of my attempts at a poem a cuple of years ago. I had become more interested in form, and wanted to experiement with a free form poem I had conceived years before but was not completely happy with. In fact the endeavour took me far away from where the poem started until I had a completely different poem developing.

I was just thinking tonight that it may be better to go back to the free form again, as in that form it reflected my impressions better. I think it was a useful exercise though, and I may end up with two poems..

[JamesRhodes]

The only poems that can ever be complete are the ones that aren't worth revising. Generally I consider a poem complete once is so good that I enjoy reading it to other people (rather than shrinking in dread). I've been writing for twenty years and I think I have two of those now.

[Mr. Bergstrom]

James, that's a good point! I suppose I could consider a poem to be finished if I was confident enough to read it aloud to people. I actually enjoy the whole revising and revisiting of poems, I can just sit there for hours tweaking poems. I haven't got a single poem that I consider to be finished. I do want to draw a line on a lot of my poems though!

[Armel P]

Well, you have to draw that line somewhere if you plan to at least try to publish, no? I'm sure it would never happen for me but I think it's worth a try. But I constantly second guess myself. That's the issue. I guess one just needs to accept that it takes a very long time to complete a poem.

[Mr. Bergstrom]

I might be ruthless and try to finish at least one poem this weekend... haha let's see if I can actually manage it!

[blank|verse]

Well, you have to draw that line somewhere if you plan to at least try to publish, no?
Yes, you do, Armel. It's a very good point. It's all well and good privileging process over product, but there has to be a point where you finish a poem and move to the next. That point comes when you feel comfortable with what you've written, and if there are minor niggles, they are outweighed by the strengths of the poem.

If you haven't written much poetry, I would say it is more valuable to write new poems, rather than dwell for too long on exisiting ones. Give them due attention, of course - it's how you learn and develop as a writer - but writing more also gives you a better sense of which poems are stronger and worth dedicating more time to, and which ones aren't worth the effort.

Also, write in different forms (or at least familiarize yourself with them) so you build up the knowledge of how to express yourself. Don't be afraid of ripping off other poets' styles, either. I've found it a good way to learn! And keep reading, particularly contemporary poetry.

If you've got some poems, why not post them on the Personal Poetry section of the forum for others to comment on? That'll give you a good idea of what others think of your writing, and gives you the chance to discuss your work, your intentions, strengths and weaknesses, etc. It also opens you to criticism, which is invaluable if you're going to develop. If you're not critically aware of what and how you're writing, then you could struggle to be an effective writer.

[JBI]

When they die.

[Armel P]

Yes, you do, Armel. It's a very good point. It's all well and good privileging process over product, but there has to be a point where you finish a poem and move to the next. That point comes when you feel comfortable with what you've written, and if there are minor niggles, they are outweighed by the strengths of the poem.

Sometimes I feel comfortable with it but say to myself, "what if you're wrong?" That gets annoying.



If you haven't written much poetry, I would say it is more valuable to write new poems, rather than dwell for too long on exisiting ones. Give them due attention, of course - it's how you learn and develop as a writer - but writing more also gives you a better sense of which poems are stronger and worth dedicating more time to, and which ones aren't worth the effort.

I don't really let old ones get in the way of starting new ones but I get what you mean.



Also, write in different forms (or at least familiarize yourself with them) so you build up the knowledge of how to express yourself. Don't be afraid of ripping off other poets' styles, either. I've found it a good way to learn! And keep reading, particularly contemporary poetry.

Oh I do.



If you've got some poems, why not post them on the Personal Poetry section of the forum for others to comment on? That'll give you a good idea of what others think of your writing, and gives you the chance to discuss your work, your intentions, strengths and weaknesses, etc. It also opens you to criticism, which is invaluable if you're going to develop. If you're not critically aware of what and how you're writing, then you could struggle to be an effective writer.

I recognize that it would be valuable but I'm not comfortable posting my work on the internet. It's... creepy.

[Delta40]

The only poems that can ever be complete are the ones that aren't worth revising. Generally I consider a poem complete once is so good that I enjoy reading it to other people (rather than shrinking in dread). I've been writing for twenty years and I think I have two of those now.

lol. So if I think I have many poems which I don't shrink in dread from reading out loud, could I just be insensitive to the ears of others :smilielol5:

[IceM]

When I find myself satisfied with all that has been said, both in stylistic development and pertinence to the subject.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Wonderful question, Armel - to judge from the interesting responses it has provoked.

There was a period when I wasn’t writing poems and hadn’t come up with anything that looked like it might become a poem. Then, one day as I was driving somewhere I sensed the rhythm or metrics of a poetic line and was eager to pull over and see what it was. When I did, however, and began to reach for the words to correspond to that rhythm, it was


INTIMATIONS


A shiver of something quick
goes through us now and then,
as if
the misaligned heart


were about to fracture under bone
or, far off in outer space,
a silent planet thinned itself
against the dark, unknown.


and to my severe disappointment, I couldn’t write it - because I already had, 15 or more years before. So I guess that was one poem that was indeed finished - for me.

[Armel P]

Wonderful question, Armel - to judge from the interesting responses it has provoked.

There was a period when I wasn’t writing poems and hadn’t come up with anything that looked like it might become a poem. Then, one day as I was driving somewhere I sensed the rhythm or metrics of a poetic line and was eager to pull over and see what it was. When I did, however, and began to reach for the words to correspond to that rhythm, it was


INTIMATIONS


A shiver of something quick
goes through us now and then,
as if
the misaligned heart


were about to fracture under bone
or, far off in outer space,
a silent planet thinned itself
against the dark, unknown.


and to my severe disappointment, I couldn’t write it - because I already had, 15 or more years before. So I guess that was one poem that was indeed finished - for me.

That's a pretty funny story of disappointment. And a nice poem. So what did you think of it when you accidentally rediscovered it?

[Perandorrrr]

Great question. I've looked over some of my past work to see what may need revising, but I can't help but enjoy the flaws if they are minor. Some of my poems end when I feel as though there is nothing else to contribute; others end when I feel my brain (literally) saying "move on". Again, it is a great question. I wonder what the great writers over time felt about their endings.

[YesNo]

I don't write a lot of poetry. If I do, it is a stanza or two of common measure, a limerick or some other brief form. Basically, it is something short and sweet so I can move on with my life.

So I thought I didn't have anything to add to this thread (and probably don't), but it occurred to me that I sort of know when I'm done with a poem. To take one example, if the limerick I'm writing has 5 lines with the appropriate meter and rhyme scheme--and it doesn't embarrass me too much to let others look at it--I'm done.

[blank|verse]

Thanks for the reply, Armel.

Sometimes I feel comfortable with it but say to myself, "what if you're wrong?" That gets annoying.
Well, this is where you need to know what you're doing critically, so you can become your own editor and spot weaknesses and improve them. But you can't be expected to know everything, particularly if you've just started out, and one of the best ways to improve is to allow others to comment on your work. Which brings me to...

I recognize that it would be valuable but I'm not comfortable posting my work on the internet. It's... creepy.
Creepy... or scary? :) Go on, we won't bite!

[Armel P]

Thanks for the reply, Armel.

Well, this is where you need to know what you're doing critically, so you can become your own editor and spot weaknesses and improve them. But you can't be expected to know everything, particularly if you've just started out, and one of the best ways to improve is to allow others to comment on your work. Which brings me to...

Creepy... or scary? :) Go on, we won't bite!

I prefer the word creepy. I like that word. :cool:
Don't get me wrong. I don't fear criticism at all.

[blank|verse]

Don't get me wrong. I don't fear criticism at all.
Then I look forward to reading some of your work... :)

[Armel P]

Then I look forward to reading some of your work... :)

I should have continued... but I'm protective.

[PSRemeshChandra]

Emotions are what constitute poetry chiefly even though there are other essential components also. When the emotions from which those poems and lines sprang up dries up or fades, the essential component that constituted the poem also vanishes. So generally speaking, a poem is well made when the basic emotion which caused the poem is livid. A good and wise poet will make most use of that precious time by nearly or totally completing the poem then. But there are talents among poets who can rekindle at their will those original emotions and benefit from revisiting and internally editing them. But one question remains: How can the poet know his poem is complete? It is exactly like asking the question: When is the birth and growth of a child complete?

Like all others, the poet also is an appreciator and enjoyer of his poems. Only that he is the first appreciator. Appreciation and enjoyment of a poem becomes complete only when it can successfully and easily be sung. So long as the poet has not equipped and edited the poem enough to be sung easily by himself and by others, the poem is not complete. He cannot skip and escape by saying that his poem is not one to be sung but one to be read, for why leave something unfinished for the disappointment of others and one's self.

[AuntShecky]

The idea of putting a poem away for a while and then coming back to it later for assessment is a good one. The Paul Valery line is apt; you might have read that Auden had a habit of revising his poems and re-revising them years after they had been published.

My advice to you (and yours fooly would do well to remember it herself) is two-fold:

1: Sometimes we write with the notion "Now I am going to write a poem. This can either stifle the creative process or more likely produce a result that is pretentious and ponderous. Remember what Eliot's "Tradition and the Individual Talent" says about the difference between bad poets and good ones: the former is "conscious when he should be unconscious and unconscious when he should be conscious."

2. It's always a good idea to take the work itself seriously, but when writing it, it's never a good idea to take ourselves seriously.