How do translators retain the rhyming quality of text?

[Buddha Frog]

I don't have a good example to hand, I'll try to find one later and post it, but I always what the process entailed. In many novels, I have seen a short verse, which presumably adheres to the original meaning, yet somehow ends up rhyming in the English translation. I wonder how liberally the original meaning is observed, in a bid to come up with a rhyming English equivalent.

[togre]

It takes a talent that is nearly equal to that of the original author to translate verse so that it retains the feeling and content of the original and rhymes well. Often there is some sacrifice either to the exact wording or to the feel.

My background makes hymns an example that immediately springs to mind. Look at Silent Night for example. The English translation that is most well known is beautiful, fits the meter and all that.

Silent night! Holy night!
All is calm, all is bright,
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child!
Holy Infant, so tender and mild,
Sleep in heavenly peace!
Sleep in heavenly peace!

So is the German original:


Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht,
Alles schläft; einsam wacht
Nur das traute hochheilige Paar.
Holder Knabe im lockigen Haar,
Schlaf in himmlischer Ruh!
Schlaf in himmlischer Ruh!

My German is somewhat rusty, but this literal translation by Hyde Flippo (some guy) seems to translate each word.

Silent night, holy night
All is sleeping, alone watches
Only the close, most holy couple.
Blessed boy in curly hair,
Sleep in heavenly peace!
Sleep in heavenly peace!

I think this is an example of greatness in translating verse. Yes, some words are not translated and some meaning is shifted, but the...ambiance, the feel, is captured very well. It's an art, not a science, I guess.

Here's an article (http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/Notes_On_Carols/silent_night_holy_night_notes.htm) about various translations of Silent Night that weren't adopted by the English speaking world. It shows there is no one right way and always a lot of sacrifice and give and take between beauty and faithfulness.

[sithkittie]

I don't know about European languages, but at least for things translated from Japanese, if they rhyme it was completely forced and almost always has lost the feel and meaning of the original text. Actually, most things translated from Japanese are poorly done. It's also next to impossible to keep the syllables or beat the same, for example in haiku, and still retain the meaning and feel. I would imagine it's a bit easier with languages that are at least somewhat related to English, but as togre said, one or the other, style or literal accuracy, has to be sacrificed in translating.

[YesNo]

Some people write metrical language better than others and they would be the ones who would do a better job of accurately translating a work that originally rhymed into a rhyming English poem.

I don't think it makes sense to translate a poem that wasn't metrical into an English metrical poem. However, if the original was written metrically, it is worth the effort to try to make a metrical translation. This is not an impossible task if the translator can write metrically. The reason for making this effort is that part of the original enjoyment of the poem was its sound.

[stlukesguild]

I don't know about European languages, but at least for things translated from Japanese, if they rhyme it was completely forced and almost always has lost the feel and meaning of the original text. Actually, most things translated from Japanese are poorly done. It's also next to impossible to keep the syllables or beat the same, for example in haiku, and still retain the meaning and feel. I would imagine it's a bit easier with languages that are at least somewhat related to English

Dante Gabriel Rossetti... no mean translator himself (his translation of Dante and the early Italian Poets is quite masterful)... declared that the only reason to translate any poem is to bring a work of beauty to an audience lacking the ability to read the original. Thus his rule of thumb: no good poem in French or Italian (or whatever language) shall be turned into a bad poem in English. Rossetti suggested that the literal translation was of a secondary concern, of greater importance was a fidelity to the overall intent. Languages are not like mathematics. There are no exact equivalents in each and every language for each and every word and phrase... let alone equivalents with matching syllables that rhyme. Translating Ronsard or Verlaine or Racine or Mallarme from French to English can be just as difficult as translating Basho, Issa, Buson or Akiko Yosano. Many translations from French avoid French poetic forms such as the Alexandrines... which are often thought to sound awkward to English-language speakers used to Iambic Pentameter. Italian, to use another example, is far more rich in rhyme with all the vowel-endings. As such, the terza-rima of Dante becomes a near impossibility in English. Eugenio Montale, the great 20th century Italian poet, noted that Italian was so musical that it made for lazy poets... and an overly effete poetry... as opposed to the Englsih who had to struggle more... but had a greater variety of hard-sounding and soft-sounding words.

Honestly, there are few really good translations from the Japanese for political reasons. Japan was a largely isolated nation... at least from the West... until the 20th century. As such there were few Western writers even aware of Japanese literature... let alone fluent in Japanese. Japan's politics in the 20th century did not make Japanese Studies a likely favorite of American, Australian, or English writers/translators. This has changed greatly as trade between Japan and the West has escalated. It is not surprising that many of the poet/translators most interested in Japanese literature and the Japanese aesthetic are from the West Coast where the US has the largest Japanese population. Seriously, and I think JBI would concur, Chinese is far more difficult to translate effectively because of the monosyllabic nature of the language, the use of rhyme as well as internal visual rhymes of the calligraphic language.

By the way... returning to the original question... I would note that rhyme is not the sole... nor even the most important element in the music of a poem. Surely the meter and even the sound or musicality of the words is of equal importance.

[Alexander III]

"By the way... returning to the original question... I would note that rhyme is not the sole... nor even the most important element in the music of a poem. Surely the meter and even the sound or musicality of the words is of equal importance."

That is exactly why some poets like racine, leopardi, shelley and D'Annunzio are quite literally impossible to translate without massacring the poem. And why some authors like Shakespeare, Virgil and Dostoyevsky have a larger world popularity as they relly upon different things to create beautiful works, images and metaphors which can be translated unlike racine's music for example.

[sithkittie]

I've done a lot of translating from Japanese to English and English to Japanese. I'm a bit of a rarity in that I'm from the Midwestern US and fluent in Japanese, but there are quite a lot of us out there. Part of the problem is those of us most fluent in the language are pretty well disgusted with the companies that do a lot of the translating or blocked from getting work translating in Japan, so translations done here are done by people who, for the most part, only "somewhat" know English. (On that note, most of the English-Japanese translations are just as bad as the other way around, sometimes worse. Disney usually does okay translating things... they're the actually the only ones.)

You mentioned Chinese's visual rhymes, and it's funny cause, you probably know, Japanese uses a lot of the same characters, and in a lot of things, lyrics mostly as I tend to read those far far more than traditional poetry, Japanese really plays on those characters too. Every time I come across something like that translating, I always feel the need to add a footnote to explain it, but it still feels like it's losing something.

I see your point about Rossetti. I'm definitely not the person to translate poetry. I have a lot of trouble appreciating the style of most poems, so generally, if I like a poem, it's because of the content. I can definitely see it as needing a poet to translate another poem.

[stlukesguild]

That is exactly why some poets like racine, leopardi, shelley and D'Annunzio are quite literally impossible to translate without massacring the poem...

Alex.. interesting that you should include Leopardi in that number. I quite found the recent Earnon Grennan translations of selected works good, but I'm truly looking forward to Jonathan Galassi's translations of the whole Canti. Galassi, if you recall, is an excellent translator of Italian poetry having made the highly-esteemed translations of the whole of Eugenio Montale. Ultimately we are dependent upon luck... the right translator with the right sensibilities taking on the right poet. I only wish there were more projects or publications like New Directions Marthiel and Jackson Mathews edition of Baudelaire's Fleurs du Mal in which the editors collected what they believed to be the best translations available for each of Baudelaire's poems. Some of the translators were older, some newer. As a whole the book gave a great insight into Baudelaire as some translators captured this side of his work and others captured another side. MortalTerror didn't like Richard Wilbur's translations of Racine, although he is masterful with Moliere. I can't speak to that as I read the one Wilbur translation years ago. There are also two translations by Robert Lowell... but considering his Imitations they may be more Lowell than Racine. Too bad Donald Frame didn't make an attempt.

[stlukesguild]

Part of the problem is those of us most fluent in the language are pretty well disgusted with the companies that do a lot of the translating or blocked from getting work translating in Japan, so translations done here are done by people who, for the most part, only "somewhat" know English.

What is the reason behind this? It would also seem this would only effect translations of work not in the public domain as no company holds the copyright to any older works.

[togre]

By the way... returning to the original question... I would note that rhyme is not the sole... nor even the most important element in the music of a poem. Surely the meter and even the sound or musicality of the words is of equal importance.


That brings up an intriguing question: What is the value of poetry? When translating poetry what is the valuable, desirable kernel that you desire to reproduce for readers in the translated language?

I think answers to that are on a continuum. One extreme says the sheer beauty of the poem, the aesthetic pleasure it inspires with the combination of meaning, meter, rhyme, etc., is the quality to be captured. The other extreme takes the meaning to be the supreme value, with word choice, poetic form and beauty valuable only to the extent that they are a vehicle for the meaning or perhaps express the intensity or nuance of the words themselves.

Reality is obviously somewhere between these too. Indeed different translators and readers may be able to stake out and adequately defend differing positions along this spectrum. I'd even suggest that individual pieces of poetry demand a different standard and goal when translating. The awkward puns and irregular meter of Hebrew poetry in the Psalms can be sacrificed by a faithful translator because in this specific case the meaning clearly overshadows form. While I am treading on less familiar ground, I suspect the importance of form is much greater if the essence of a haiku is to be captured.

[Wilde woman]

I think the average English-speaking Joe on the street puts too much stress on rhyming in poetry, when there are other equally affecting poetic effects a good poet can use. Personally, I don't care for translations in which the English translator tries to keep the rhyme from the original language; I simply don't think rhyme translates well across languages.

I ran across a nineteenth-century translation of Beowulf which was written completely in rhyming couplets and was simultaneously intrigued and revolted, but mostly revolted. It gave this very stately Old English poem a singsongy quality that utterly ruined it. No matter how good a poet you are, when you try to fit a verse of another language into some artificial English rhyme scheme, you inevitably sacrifice more nuance in meaning than, I think, is wise.

And I cannot imagine how one could begin to translate Dante's terza rima into English rhymes.

[sithkittie]

What is the reason behind this? It would also seem this would only effect translations of work not in the public domain as no company holds the copyright to any older works.

That is a very good question, and I have no idea as to the answer. I gave up trying to figure that one out. I really don't understand how copyright works here, what is and isn't in public domain. It does effect works that are copyrighted, but a lot of the really old pieces have to be translated into modern Japanese first since the vast majority of people can't read them. The language has changed a lot in the two centuries. I don't know if that changes the copyright or what. Most of the stuff that gets translated is newer though.

[kiki1982]

Probably, that's only in my head though, the modern Japanese translation of the original old Japanese text, is already copyrighted because it has been made now (the same, for example, goes for modern translations of let's War and Peace. Under no circumstances is it allowed to reprint the book in that translation, or make copies, or whatever, without asking permission of the company or translator). So, as the new Japanese text is copyrighted, the English translation is too, despite the old text being in the public domain, naturally.

[sithkittie]

That would make sense.

[YesNo]

I think the average English-speaking Joe on the street puts too much stress on rhyming in poetry, when there are other equally affecting poetic effects a good poet can use. Personally, I don't care for translations in which the English translator tries to keep the rhyme from the original language; I simply don't think rhyme translates well across languages.

I ran across a nineteenth-century translation of Beowulf which was written completely in rhyming couplets and was simultaneously intrigued and revolted, but mostly revolted. It gave this very stately Old English poem a singsongy quality that utterly ruined it. No matter how good a poet you are, when you try to fit a verse of another language into some artificial English rhyme scheme, you inevitably sacrifice more nuance in meaning than, I think, is wise.

And I cannot imagine how one could begin to translate Dante's terza rima into English rhymes.
I agree that rhyme is over-emphasized.

With Beowulf, the original meter was "alliterative". It did not use rhyme but alliteration and had a more unusual meter than what I would expect to see in modern metrical poetry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliterative_verse

So, making a translation of Beowulf that rhymed seems inappropriate. It would be more interesting to try to translate using the original alliterative meter. I think that might still appeal to native English speakers.

The "singsongy quality" likely comes more from the iambic meter that I suspect the translator also used. I don't know Italian, but I think Dante's terza rima could be translated into some iambic, rhymed English poetry. It would be a better fit for that meter than Beowulf.

[blazeofglory]

I don't have a good example to hand, I'll try to find one later and post it, but I always what the process entailed. In many novels, I have seen a short verse, which presumably adheres to the original meaning, yet somehow ends up rhyming in the English translation. I wonder how liberally the original meaning is observed, in a bid to come up with a rhyming English equivalent.


Rhymes are untranslatable; no matter how savvied a translator is all he can do is hit upon the outer realities.

I do not think Tolstoy, Voltaire, Victor Hugo's woks can be easily translatable.

[stlukesguild]

What is so hard to translate in Tolstoy, Voltaire, or Victor Hugo... outside of their poems (and Hugo's poems have been well translated by E.M. and H.M. Blackmore)? Prose does not present the same degree of challenge to the translator in terms of trying to maintain a balance between fidelity to the form, the structure, the music, and the sound of the actual words with the "meaning". Certainly there are bad translations of prose, but I honestly never read Tolstoy, Voltaire, Hugo... or Proust, Kafka, Dostoevsky, Thomas Mann, or Cervantes for that matter... and found myself wondering why they were even considered "classics". This is, however, something I have experienced more than a few time when confronted with a dead translation of poetry.

[Emil Miller]

I do not think Tolstoy, Voltaire, Victor Hugo's woks can be easily translatable.

I have read a number of books in their original language and in their translation into English and I have found that good translations have been very acceptable, even though it is obviously better to read them in the original.