Theology 101

[PrinceMyshkin]

There is no religion in heaven,
I think, nor any prayers
other than breath
and breathing.

[jajdude]

Interesting what you've done here with just a few words.

[Jack of Hearts]

Even the untrained eye can see the poetry in your work.



J

[Bar22do]

Nicely put, Prince, though conjecturing is based upon incomplete information, while in this case we have none. However, dragged along your thread of thought: perhaps once "in heaven", we don't hurry that much to return among the living... I always imagined we had to be kicked off this or another cosy cloud to join again the swarming humanity... One wonders why.
Still, I'm always full of praise for whoever prioritizes earthly life over any other, so hen, hen to you. And prosper and live long, to borrow Hawk's, here so appropriate, a greeting (for doing which I hope I'll be excused!) Bar

[Haunted]

Heaven as a place AND a state of mind and you married the two in such a short graceful ceremony, but in the end you chose to focus on living. Thought provoking and affirmative at the same time. I definitely see a bit of heaven in these four lines.

[hillwalker]

The first line was certainly reassuring - if a little contradictory - and following the same line of thought, a prayer for breath is probably the last one most of us will utter.....

H

[AuntShecky]

Hmm. Six brief lines embodying three denials of what "we" believe heaven to have:-

No religion, you say -- but when you think about it, religion might merely be an earthly means to achieve the next world.

No praying, your speaker says, which comes as a surprise to our concept of several hierarchies of angels whose sole (sou?) duty is adoration. One would think that prayers of thanksgiving would be common among heaven's new inhabitants who'd never think they get there. But the speaker is 100% correct in stating there would be absolutely no need for prayers of petition, for if heaven is all that it's cracked up to be, nobody would have to ask for anything.

But there will be breathing? How so, since respiration isstrictly speaking essential for the physical self but not the spiritual one?

One might think that the narrator is stating that there is no heaven at all! You must be the LitNet's counterpart to Ricky Gervais.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Many thanks to you Jajdude, Jack of Hearts, Haunted and Hillwalker:


The first line was certainly reassuring - if a little contradictory - and following the same line of thought, a prayer for breath is probably the last one most of us will utter.....


although the contradictory aspect you see in it must be in opposition to traditional religious concepts of heaven, according to which there is virtually nothing BUT religion in heaven! I did not mean that there were prayers for breath but that breaths and breathing were all the praying we were required or expected to do.


Nicely put, Prince, though conjecturing is based upon incomplete information, while in this case we have none. However, dragged along your thread of thought: perhaps once "in heaven", we don't hurry that much to return among the living... I always imagined we had to be kicked off this or another cosy cloud to join again the swarming humanity... One wonders why.
Still, I'm always full of praise for whoever prioritizes earthly life over any other, so hen, hen to you. And prosper and live long, to borrow Hawk's, here so appropriate, a greeting (for doing which I hope I'll be excused!) Bar

Conjecturing, in my use of it here, was in part hypothesis in part wishful thinking.

Aunt Shecky: I will tackle your several points as best I can shortly...

[Delta40]

I interpreted breath and breathing as ease of mind at having reached one's hoped for destination.

I think conjecture sticks out like an elbow in the ribs. Is it intentional?

You have a knack at producing a world of wisdom into several short lines Prince!

[PrinceMyshkin]

Hmm. Six brief lines embodying three denials of what "we" believe heaven to have:-

No religion, you say -- but when you think about it, religion might merely be an earthly means to achieve the next world.
It might indeed be that but no one (a far as I know) has yet to report back from the 'afterlife' as to whether they got there on the religion train or otherwise...


No praying, your speaker says, which comes as a surprise to our concept of several hierarchies of angels whose sole (sou?) duty is adoration. One would think that prayers of thanksgiving would be common among heaven's new inhabitants who'd never think they get there. But the speaker is 100% correct in stating there would be absolutely no need for prayers of petition, for if heaven is all that it's cracked up to be, nobody would have to ask for anything.
Indeed everything you say about the received notions of heaven is conjecture...

But there will be breathing? How so, since respiration is strictly speaking essential for the physical self but not the spiritual one?

One might think that the narrator is stating that there is no heaven at all! You must be the LitNet's counterpart to Ricky Gervais.

Mightn't there be breathing of some sort other than as we know it?


I interpreted breath and breathing as ease of mind at having reached one's hoped for destination.
I meant it, rather, as the simple experience of being.

I think conjecture sticks out like an elbow in the ribs. Is it intentional?
Intentional only inasmuch as there was no other word I could think of that would do the job. You're not the only one who objected to something cacophonous about it, but since the rest of the language is plain enough, I didn't think it would be that much of a problem.


You have a knack at producing a world of wisdom into several short lines Prince!

Thank you very much but may I confess, I had hoped that this would be the door to a longer poem and I was somewhat disappointed when it turned out (for now, anyway) that the door was all there was of the room.

[Delta40]

conjecture
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: speculate
Synonyms: assume, believe, conceive, conclude, deem, estimate, expect, fancy, feel*, figure, gather, glean, guess, guesstimate, hazard a guess, hypothesize, imagine, infer, judge, presume, pretend, suppose, surmise, suspect, take a shot, take a stab, take for granted, theorize, think

would any of these help?

[Hawkman]

An interesting train of thought, Prince. Surely Heaven is a construct of religion which seeks to impose a way of living which guarantees it as the reward for living a good and pious life? Once in heaven, what is there left to look forward to? On this plane of exisitance all we have is conjecture.

Or can it be that those who lived a good and pious life enjoyed living it so much that they pray for another ride on the carousel, or is Heaven so boring that the eternal human spirit would rather walk the earth in repeating cycles, like a child climbing a ladder on a playground slide, just to enjoy the ride back down?

Perhaps Heaven should remain the preserve of gods and angels, who amuse themselves by watching our antics as we clamber over and around the obstacles which they place in our path. This is, more or less, what the Ancient Greeks believed. Maybe they were right...

Live and be well - H

[PrinceMyshkin]

conjecture
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: speculate
Synonyms: assume, believe, conceive, conclude, deem, estimate, expect, fancy, feel*, figure, gather, glean, guess, guesstimate, hazard a guess, hypothesize, imagine, infer, judge, presume, pretend, suppose, surmise, suspect, take a shot, take a stab, take for granted, theorize, think

would any of these help?

Thank you for taking the trouble. As you will see, I've changed it.

[PrinceMyshkin]

The first line was certainly reassuring - if a little contradictory - and following the same line of thought, a prayer for breath is probably the last one most of us will utter.....

H

I was astonished at first at your apparent misreading of "no prayers / except for breath" &c., but I see now that the fault was in my ambiguous use of "for". I meant the phrase "except for" in the sense of other than, and I intended that there were no prayers of supplication but only of adulation or thanksgiving.

[Delta40]

wow! I feel like you've been persecuted over this poem (in a nice critiquey way) I hope there is none of that in heaven either Prince!

[Bar22do]

A good change, Prince, reads better and expresses better what you wanted to say.

Be well,

Bar

[PrinceMyshkin]

wow! I feel like you've been persecuted over this poem (in a nice critiquey way) I hope there is none of that in heaven either Prince!

Not in the least, my friend! I feel that this little poem - hardly a poem, really - has received nothing but respectful attention even when some may have disagreed as to the assertions it made


An interesting train of thought, Prince. Surely Heaven is a construct of religion which seeks to impose a way of living which guarantees it as the reward for living a good and pious life? Once in heaven, what is there left to look forward to? On this plane of exisitance all we have is conjecture.

Or can it be that those who lived a good and pious life enjoyed living it so much that they pray for another ride on the carousel, or is Heaven so boring that the eternal human spirit would rather walk the earth in repeating cycles, like a child climbing a ladder on a playground slide, just to enjoy the ride back down?

Perhaps Heaven should remain the preserve of gods and angels, who amuse themselves by watching our antics as we clamber over and around the obstacles which they place in our path. This is, more or less, what the Ancient Greeks believed. Maybe they were right...

Live and be well - H

I conceived of it as a place where the most bitter of acrimonies - e.g. your religion vs his or her religion vs those who oppose religion - were laid aside.

[blank|verse]

In the words of Michael Donaghy, this poem is 'passing weighty for a work so short'! Good to see you back, Prince. Controversial as always! :)

The title suggests Orwell's Room 101 from '1984', as if the narrator has had the viewpoint tortured out of him; something the casually conversational 'I think' in the second line goes against somewhat. I'm not sure that adds to the poem; I think I prefer the 'conjecture' or even something more prosaic but still suggesting a dialogue, like 'I say', perhaps.

'Breath AND breathing' is an odd phrase (a hendiadys, I think, technically). Why the distinction, particularly in such a short piece? It does serve to reinforce the physical aspect of the argument though and makes me reflect on the words of the great C20th existentialist philosopher Belinda Carlisle: 'Ooh, heaven is a place on earth'. :smilewinkgrin:

A typically thought-provoking piece.

[AuntShecky]

.

Or can it be that those who lived a good and pious life enjoyed living it so much that they pray for another ride on the carousel, or is Heaven so boring that the eternal human spirit would rather walk the earth in repeating cycles, like a child climbing a ladder on a playground slide, just to enjoy the ride back down?

Perhaps Heaven should remain the preserve of gods and angels, who amuse themselves by watching our antics as we clamber over and around the obstacles which they place in our path. This is, more or less, what the Ancient Greeks believed. Maybe they were right...

Live and be well - H

Oh, gosh, Hawkman, both you (and the Prince) humble me sometimes with your intellects. The first paragraph in your quote above ^ is very Shavian, in fact describes the plot of Don Juan in Hell, the third act of Man and Supermanwhich is often performed/printed separately. (Yours fooly has read the entire play, though, and it's a hoot.)

Anyway, the second paragraph reminds me of Twain's oft-quoted line that he prefers "Heaven for the climate and Hell for the company." Who wants to hang around the likes of Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite and company with their titantic egos and petty jealousies? On the other hand, it might be fun to sit around with Athena for the conversation and a pint.

Prince, see how provocative your postings are? They stimulate all kinds of speculation and cogitation.

[PrinceMyshkin]

In the words of Michael Donaghy, this poem is 'passing weighty for a work so short'! Good to see you back, Prince. Controversial as always! :)

The title suggests Orwell's Room 101 from '1984', as if the narrator has had the viewpoint tortured out of him; something the casually conversational 'I think' in the second line goes against somewhat. I'm not sure that adds to the poem; I think I prefer the 'conjecture' or even something more prosaic but still suggesting a dialogue, like 'I say', perhaps.
I've used the "101" phrase in other titles but should perhaps allow it to disappear, as a cliche. Certainly I had nothing of '1984' in mind.


'Breath AND breathing' is an odd phrase (a hendiadys, I think, technically). Why the distinction, particularly in such a short piece? It does serve to reinforce the physical aspect of the argument though and makes me reflect on the words of the great C20th existentialist philosopher Belinda Carlisle: 'Ooh, heaven is a place on earth'. :smilewinkgrin:
Precisely in order to give it emphasis but also to honour its two distinct attributes, i.e., a thing that exists for a short period of time, that might be said to be distinguished from all others of its kind and, 2ndly, as an activity...

As for the Carlisle quote, may I refer you to Mr. Golightly's Holiday by Salley Vickers. A d/ed good read.


A typically thought-provoking piece.

[qimissung]

What a beautiful silence that would be, my friend.

[Jerrybaldy]

Good to see nicotine withdrawal hasn't silenced you for good Prince. I read the whole thing as earth bound with heaven being used as an adjective, as in a cigaratte and a coffee at this moment, I would guess, my friend.

[firefangled]

Let us pray there is no religion in heaven as you propose. I've had all I can stand while on earth of its ill effects.

I never questioned the thought of breath and breathing. I've thought of heaven as a state of mind/body since I was old enough to really think.

Of course, there is the clinical way of thinking about the aspects of breath, but there is something equally ethereal about breathing IMHO.

Your poems often live along the edge of things. It is why they are so provocative.

[jajdude]

I liked the use of "conjecture" though it sounds a bit mathematical.

Anyway, interesting use of few words.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Many thanks Qimissung, JerryB, Jajdude and

Firefangled: apropos your "living on the edge" remark, I felt maybe a bit too much so in this case, and that I should - if I could - have expanded the thought somewhat.