Remorse of Soldiers

[Ace]

I have returned. With my return, I give you a poem that was begun on one afternoon and only worked on then, only to be worked upon 8 months later and finished in one more sitting.

Without further ado, my poem, Remorse of Soldiers:



How far these men have come
Guns in hand and backpacks slung
Crossing fields and trudging streams
Living every young boys' dreams

To know the lull is temporary
At any moment strike and parry
Nervous glances, sighs of relief
To hide hard beating hearts beneath

Both brave men and cowards alike
Will fall down if caught by strike
Luck decides who lives, not skill
Not fear of death nor strong will

Cowering under helmets, lowering eyes
All men naive yet all too wise
Death as a child seemed so unreal
Now proven by sight, by sound, by feel

Rest for the wicked, dead sleep for the weary
Leaving innocent eyes all bleary
The crack of gunshots all drown out
Whimpering wounded and deaths shrill shout

Look down the sights, what is seen
Two bright orbs that quickly gleam
Put aside all and any doubt
Squeeze of a trigger and the orbs go out

No time for any hesitation
You simply did so for your nation
Yet when that plane lands back at home
Unsettled minds left free to roam

At night when lay they toss and turn
For simple closure all will yearn
When finally eyes close and minds wander
Thoughts of happiness, of joy, are squandered

And when it's time to say goodbye
They'll kiss their loves yet still won't cry
For they will know the reason why
That it's their turn for them to die

[hillwalker]

Any 'message' you were trying to get across was completely undermined by that feeble conclusion and the rhyme that has taken over the entire poem -

For they will know the reason why
That it's their turn for them to die

is such a fatuous statement - how is it meant to be interpreted?

But it's the blind reliance on rhyme that kills this stone dead - as soon as you begin to examine something vaguely original that suggests this might be going somewhere you come in with a follow-up line that destroys what came before it, but at least it rhymes.

My suggestion would be to start from scratch - forget about rhyme. What's the poem supposed to be about? Decide that first then just write your thoughts down - because I'm guessing at least half of this wasn't what came into your head when you first sat down to write the poem.

H

[Ace]

Any 'message' you were trying to get across was completely undermined by that feeble conclusion and the rhyme that has taken over the entire poem -

For they will know the reason why
That it's their turn for them to die

is such a fatuous statement - how is it meant to be interpreted?

But it's the blind reliance on rhyme that kills this stone dead - as soon as you begin to examine something vaguely original that suggests this might be going somewhere you come in with a follow-up line that destroys what came before it, but at least it rhymes.

My suggestion would be to start from scratch - forget about rhyme. What's the poem supposed to be about? Decide that first then just write your thoughts down - because I'm guessing at least half of this wasn't what came into your head when you first sat down to write the poem.

H

The idea of the poem is for the reader to reflect on their own past and maybe realize they have done things they regret doing; it isn't about the poem itself, it's about what the poem incites in a person.

Most of my writing is for the reader to decide exactly what is going on and to fill in the blanks for themselves, so for you to ask "What's the poem supposed to be about?" means that I have accomplished my goal, just you were reading too much into the technical side of the poem then searching inside yourself for the answers to your questions.

Again, asking for interpretation of a specific part of the poem COMPLETELY undermines the entire concept of poetry itself. Giving the reader a chance to think about themselves rather than just absorb a straight-forward story is much more appealing to me then just flat out telling them what it is about.

:)

[hillwalker]

The idea of the poem is for the reader to reflect on their own past and maybe realize they have done things they regret doing; it isn't about the poem itself, it's about what the poem incites in a person.

But it is about the poem itself, because all this piece incited in me was a wish that it were better written.

Where is there anything in this poem inviting me to reflect on my past? There are a number of references to soldiers in battle that don't really give any fresh insight regarding the effects war or conflict have on the combatants. Then they return home and for some reason realise it's their turn to die.

There's certainly nothing here to suggest that the reader should pause and gaze into his own soul. So expecting your readers to 'fill in the blanks' is asking a bit much without taking the trouble to supply one or two clues.

The poet surely has a duty to express his thoughts or observations clearly in order to share his unique view of the world with the reader before demanding that the reader responds by coming to some deeper understanding of the poem's inner meaning. Otherwise you could jot down absolutely anything that comes into your head, call it a poem and say "I've done my bit - work it out for yourself now." And if the reader still comes up empty-handed it's his failing not yours.


Again, asking for interpretation of a specific part of the poem COMPLETELY undermines the entire concept of poetry itself.

I wasn't seeking your assistance to enable me to interpret this poem. I was merely observing how it keeps getting sidetracked by a series of weak lines (and the occasional random cliche) as a result of your strict adherence to end-rhyme regardless of sense.

And as for the 'concept of poetry' - it sounds wonderful but what is it exactly? And how does this poem promote better understanding?

H

[Ace]

It's the reiteration of concepts most people have already read or seen and relate to chaos and internal struggle, which I hoped most people would understand considering how straight forward the concept of war and indecision is.

The poem is a reminder of something more and uses a much more dramatic and perhaps heroic setting and story to help the readers realize how much decisions truly affect themselves mentally until they finally die.

Eh, oh well.

[PrinceMyshkin]

It's the reiteration of concepts most people have already read or seen and relate to chaos and internal struggle, which I hoped most people would understand considering how straight forward the concept of war and indecision is.

The poem is a reminder of something more and uses a much more dramatic and perhaps heroic setting and story to help the readers realize how much decisions truly affect themselves mentally until they finally die.

Eh, oh well.

Whether or not the poem asserts the elevated message you claim for it, the message sinks virtually without a trace beneath the laboured rhymes and syntax mangled to achieve those rhymes.

[Delta40]

I think rhyming poetry has to be well placed, according to what one is writing about. I think rhyming is the key feature of the poem coupled with generalities concerning war. There are some good lines but rhyming has forced you to shorten the power of the statement so it keeps in tempo. For example: Unsettled minds left free to roam would read better as: Unsettled minds are left free to roam (in search of simple closure) I think you could edit what you have - expand upon and cut/paste but most of all remove the rhyming effect and then your poem will achieve better results

[hillwalker]

The poem is a reminder of something more and uses a much more dramatic and perhaps heroic setting and story to help the readers realize how much decisions truly affect themselves mentally until they finally die.

Maybe so (!) - but as Prince explains so succinctly, the way you wrote this poem achieves none of the above because of the dreadfully awkward way you have expressed yourself.

H

[inbetween]

I like it ... it even works without taking it metaphorically. it works as a simple descripiton of what happens in war and what happens back home. and I like the rhyme... if you don't want any melody you should read prose. it is a simple rhyme, as simple as the facts..
people always argue that the message is killed by the rhyme but most of the times the rhyme or the melody is simply a way to help the reader get through and a way to help the writer to get things out... without this carrying melody poe's raven would be unberable but it got this melody that carries you throug...
why do they all hate melody?
"I don't wanna live in a world wihtout a melody..."
whatsoever
I like your poem
makes me sad
I like it

[Ace]

Maybe the true meaning is hidden when read by random strangers.

I showed this to a confidant (ex-teacher) who knows I have no military experience, and he figured out exactly what I was going for right away. If it wasn't for him, I would not have posted this on this website.

So whatever, I really don't care. Even if you don't want to search into your own soul after reading it, if rhymes nice and does exactly what I want it to do, soooooooooooooooooooo.....

[hillwalker]

So whatever, I really don't care. Even if you don't want to search into your own soul after reading it, if rhymes nice and does exactly what I want it to do, soooooooooooooooooooo.....

sooooooooooo..... good for you for sticking to your guns. If you don't have belief in your own work then you will find it difficult to motivate yourself to continue writing.

It's still a dreadful poem but as long as you like it then as you say, why should you care about what the rest of us think?

H

[Ace]

sooooooooooo..... good for you for sticking to your guns. If you don't have belief in your own work then you will find it difficult to motivate yourself to continue writing.

It's still a dreadful poem but as long as you like it then as you say, why should you care about what the rest of us think?

H

Because everyone who reads my material wants me to get published and I would like to do so myself. Can't get published if people think your writing is **** (unless you're Stephanie Meyer, that is).

Read my other poem called "Currently Untitled". Let me know what you think of that one.

BTW, "Dreadful" seems to be a word that should only be used by Legendary writers... that's a very powerful word that can kill a writer/poets' spirit, and I won't lie when I say I was surprised to see that in a forum that is supposed to promote self-growth as a writer...

[hillwalker]

Because everyone who reads my material wants me to get published...

in which case - go for it. And those who think your poetry is ***** (myself included I regret to say) will be forced to eat their words.

H

[everyadventure]

My goodness, this poem has incited a riot! I have to take the middle road on this one... I liked some of your rhymes:


Cowering under helmets, lowering eyes
All men naive yet all too wise

Look down the sights, what is seen
Two bright orbs that quickly gleam

When finally eyes close and minds wander
Thoughts of happiness, of joy, are squandered

And others I thought were a bit forced:


Rest for the wicked, dead sleep for the weary
Leaving innocent eyes all bleary

For they will know the reason why
That it's their turn for them to die

The last line in particular was awkward, when traditionally the final line should be the most powerful. I understand what you're getting at, that they've finally come to terms with their own inevitable mortality... but you could pack so much more oomph in it if you didn't have to rhyme.

I'd actually like to see a mix in this poem, with a few of those well placed rhymes to move the poem along.

(And Hillwalker, go grab a coffee or something!) :chillpill:

[the facade]

I am with EA on this one and I, too, will take the middle-ground.

You often resolve to cliches and frankly - you don't bring much that feels new or that sparks much.

What interested me was the singsong rhythm and some word-choices that shed an almost juvenile perspective of war - as if a father is lulling his son to sleep with war stories, rendered intelligible to a child (basic sense of morals).

I don't know if these were your intentions but I liked that.

[hillwalker]

(And Hillwalker, go grab a coffee or something!) :chillpill:

Have done - and it had the desired effect. You may now address me as Chillwalker.

H

[everyadventure]

Have done - and it had the desired effect. You may now address me as Chillwalker.
Phew! Everybody, it's safe to post your poems now!
:hurray:

[Ace]

in which case - go for it. And those who think your poetry is ***** (myself included I regret to say) will be forced to eat their words.

H

Wow, basing your perception of ALL of my poetry from one poem I mostly wrote at a graduation party then finished later?

What a PRICK a thorn might bring...

[Jerrybaldy]

Blimey. I would just like to say well done ace. There is no bad publicity :)

[everyadventure]

Yeah, I never get two pages worth of comments :(

[PrinceMyshkin]

What a PRICK a thorn might bring...

That is unacceptable, or ought to be, even though any one of us can understand how painful it must be to have one of your poems spoken of so critically. However, Hillwalker did not intend to hurt you personally, or so I read his comments, and the first thing you need to do to become a better poet is to get the hell out of your own way. I guess we all write in the hope of being at least understood or better still appreciated, but unless we put our love of language and form on a par with our hope for attention, we will never advance.

[Ace]

That is unacceptable, or ought to be, even though any one of can understand how painful it must be to have one of your poems spoken of so critically. However, Hillwalker did not intend to hurt you personally, or so I read his comments, and the first thing you need to do to become a better poet is to get the hell out of your own way. I guess we all write in the hope of being at least understood or better still appreciated, but unless we put our love of language and form on a par with our hope for attention, we will never advance.

Critically speaking of a poem is one thing, but saying "And those who think your poetry is ***** (myself included I regret to say)" is NOT acceptable.

That is NOT Constructive Criticism of this individual poem, that is a statement saying that ALL my poetry is "sh!t" (or whatever) to him, essentially saying, "Screw you, don't even consider posting here anymore because all you will post is utter crap."

How does that NOT warrant a response such as mine?

[hillwalker]

Critically speaking of a poem is one thing, but saying "And those who think your poetry is ***** (myself included I regret to say)" is NOT acceptable.How does that NOT warrant a response such as mine?

I was merely quoting your sentence :
Can't get published if people think your writing is **** (unless you're Stephanie Meyer, that is).

I am in no position to critique ALL of your poetry - how can I? But on the basis of this one you have a long way to go before anyone would consider publishing it. As Prince says - get over yourself.

H

[Ace]

I was merely quoting your sentence :
Can't get published if people think your writing is **** (unless you're Stephanie Meyer, that is).

I am in no position to critique ALL of your poetry - how can I? But on the basis of this one you have a long way to go before anyone would consider publishing it. As Prince says - get over yourself.

H

If you can't tell this is a simple poem.

Maybe I am the only way who works this way, but I only post experiments and the simplest of written ideas. This is one poem I posted due to it's simplicity and I showed a more complex form of poetry with my "Currently Untitled" poem.

So hearing that the poem is crap is no problem, it seems like we just had another mis-communication (you quoting me without using quotes made me generalize what you meant).

So once again, apologies.

[qimissung]

It has a good message, Ace, and it's good for a first effort.

[Jassy Melson]

I liked some of the poem; some of it dragged; some of the rhymes were forced; I got the feeling from some of the lines that the poet was talking down to me. Overall I give this poem a C

[AuntShecky]

Before reading this reply please do two things:
1. Read Prince Myshkin's reply #21 and the last sentence of Jerrybaldy's reply #19 about "publicity" and memorize it.
2. Take what I am about to say with the proverbial grain of salt.

Part of this reply is the same as the one I posted about a month ago to another's work and I'm posting again not as a criticism, but as something perhaps, maybe, you could consider as a suggestion.

When writing verse, remember that what makes a poem a poem is not just what the poem is about, but how it takes shape. The form and content are married to each other, so to speak, and let's hope it's a happy marriage.

If you're going to use end rhyme, try to remember that the meter and the stresses of each rhymed line have to match up exactly. A familiarity with the guidelines for meter and rhyme would help you the next time you want to write something. Reading up on poetic techniques will provide a method for expressing yourself more effectively and artfully. You can obtain several modern books on the craft of verse-writing in any public library, and even by doing an on-line search.

While you're at it, you might want to refresh your memory on the use of punctuation, which doesn't appear in the poem, even though the first word in each one of your lines begins with a capital letter, as in a sentence. Punctuation, rather than a random marks, is, like words away of clarifying meaning.

Abandoning punctuation completely is the domain of free verse which, because your piece attempts to rhyme, is not. In that case, line breaks do the job of punctuation, though I do not discern any deliberate use of line breaks in this particular piece.

I can't argue strongly enough that beginning versifiers should familiarize themselves with exemplary poems from the past five centuries as well as our own. That's the only way you'll know that what you want to say has already been said several times before, and many times better.

I'm sorry, but there is no easy way or fast track to writing good poetry. It took me four decades to realize that.


Again, take this w. a grain of salt, and remember what Jerry said (but just his last line.)

[everyadventure]

Those are some great tips, Aunt Shecky, and should be placed somewhere permanent along with Jassy's poem he posted earlier today...

Thanks for sharing, as I can use the advice myself...

[Ace]

Those are some great tips, Aunt Shecky, and should be placed somewhere permanent along with Jassy's poem he posted earlier today...

Thanks for sharing, as I can use the advice myself...

Yes, thank you Aunt Shecky, great advice.

Once again though, I will remark it was a simplistic piece and if I truly cared about it, I would have shown it to close friends and not posted it in a forum...

Notice how many posts I have in how many years I'm here. 78 (this the 79th) since June 26th, 2006. Only 25 were threads I made containing my writing. Really think I've only written like 30 things in four years? Helllllls nah.

I just thought it was a simplistic poem this forum might have some fun reading. Nobody has FUN reading anymore, they just read then focus on what they absolutely hate.

And apparently poems don't/can't have duel meanings anymore, regardless of their simplicity. Both poems that I have most recently posted have duel meanings, one much more subtle and hard-thought than the other though.

Thanks again, Aunt.

[Delta40]

Once again though, I will remark it was a simplistic piece and if I truly cared about it, I would have shown it to close friends and not posted it in a forum...

Notice how many posts I have in how many years I'm here. 78 (this the 79th) since June 26th, 2006. Some of those were replies. Really think I've only written like 30 things in four years? Helllllls nah.

I just thought it was a simplistic poem this forum might have some fun reading. Nobody has FUN reading anymore, they just read then focus on what they absolutely hate

In all fairness to you I seldom see subtle double meanings.

I do have fun reading and to make that statement is presumptious, especially as I notice you are yet to critique anyone else's work. this suggests to me that YOU don't have much fun!

This situation has been pulled out of proportion by reactiveness to a poem you claim to not care about so I am loathe to critique something which might be important.

I would love to read your comments on our contributions here because as far as I see, you have your own angle on poetry which could benefit others.

[Ace]

I do have fun reading and to make that statement is presumptious, especially as I notice you are yet to critique anyone else's work. this suggests to me that YOU don't have much fun!

This situation has been pulled out of proportion by reactiveness to a poem you claim to not care about so I am loathe to critique something which might be important.

I would love to read your comments on our contributions here because as far as I see, you have your own angle on poetry which could benefit others.

I used to read a LOT of other peoples work, but I never felt worthy of commenting on them. The occasional positive comment, but that was it on these forums. I just read. I lurked. That's why I have (now 80) posts in 4 years.

I lost my fun for reading in late 2009. I don't believe I made a single post in 2010- I know I didn't make a thread. In this thread, it even says, "I have returned.". It's the first thing in the first post.

Maybe things on these forums have just changed a lot. I remember a lot of positive vibes and GREAT feedback (good and constructive criticism) when I first started posting in 2007 up until early 2009.

There's something I want to post as it's one of the few things I let my friends IFL read and they all loved... but I'm not sure if the 2011 Lit-Net board would enjoy reading it, or just enjoy saying it isn't up to par.

[hillwalker]

Lashing out the way you have in the last day or so is perhaps a symptom of your lack of faith in what you have written here (dismissing it as unimportant yet holding it close to your breast like a wounded child is another sign of your frustration).

+90% of the regulars on here love to read poetry (and short stories) and similarly +90% of feedback is helpful and constructive criticism. It's how writers respond to our comments that decides how we follow up - you have every right to question why we don't find your work to our liking. And you have every right to ignore advice and crits. But stating that everybody else likes it so we must be misguided is not the way to go about making friends and influencing people.

As for dual meanings - I reckon 75% of my poetry posted on here has been written so it can be read at least one of two ways. And the same goes for many others who post on here. The point being - if a poem can stand up on the merits of a cursory read it matters not whether or not the hidden message has been discovered or understood. Poetry is not just about confusing the reader.

You say you did not feel worthy to comment on other people's work. Yet you feel worthy enough to dismiss the LitNet Class of '10-'11 as not a patch on earlier ones who found your work more to their liking. What's that all about? Ahem.....

H

[Ace]

You say you did not feel worthy to comment on other people's work. Yet you feel worthy enough to dismiss the LitNet Class of '10-'11 as not a patch on earlier ones who found your work more to their liking. What's that all about? Ahem.....

H

Or perhaps they just weren't a$$holes about every post they made. Like I said, I used to READ a lot here, and it was a MUCH more positive vibe. This past week, everything I read seems to spew out negativity.

I'm done with Lit-Net. Joined in 2006, and now I am done.

Thank you for bringing me to my senses: Online is not the place to post your poetry, I know this now.

See y'all.

[Mojtaba-Iraqi]

hi Ace.
buddy, from the beginnig, u misunderstood hill..it is a normal matter if u undergo the questions of the critics..i think it is a positive point to develope ur writings...actually, i envy u for getting this much comments..i think u have to employ these valuable comments in a positive direction...anyhow, it was nice and we are waiting for the others

hillwalker..consider me as a student of u, but i think Ace was right in his point that we should not focus just on the weak side of the poem, but i do like ur suggestions.

the most lovable comment was Aunt's. Ace, u r lucky for getting these golden suggestions.

[MystyrMystyry]

Have you read any Wilfred Owen?

The thing with verse
Is that it taketh time
For there is nothing worse
Than sacrificing sense for rhyme

You have to be prepared to rewrite it to make every line count - seriously

This isn't the worstest poem I've ever come across by any means, actually I rather like it because it reminded me of W.O. whom I also like


Anthem for Doomed Youth by Wilfred Owen

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons
No mockeries now for them; no prayers nor bells;
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, –
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires
What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds


To leave your poem exactly as it is is to do yourself a disservice - it has the potential to be as good as the above

Actually I noticed that your very first rhyme wasn't a true rhyme anyway, if you stick with that form it lends a lot more freedom within the stanzas and you can still use the occasional 'actual rhymes'

But the content (which is what really counts) is almost complete anyway - just consider it a first draft, no shame in that around here, and the time it takes to write something is irrelevant to the end product