Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison Discussion

[Dark Muse]

I have been wanting to read this book for a while now, and it has been up for nomination a couple of times in our Book Club, but has not been able to quite get enough to win, yet it seems there is an interest in this book, so I thought I would see if anyone else would be interesting in reading and discussing this book with me.

I plan on starting it in January, but there is no time line for the discussion, anyone can join at any time. I only ask for those who have already read the book, or finish early to please use spoiler warnings when speaking of anything relating to the ending of the book, or any other significant changes, twists, surprises in the plot which other readers may not have got to yet.

[kasie]

It has been sitting on my Unread shelf for too long, DM - I'll join you if I may?

[Dark Muse]

I will be glad to have you!

[country doctor]

the doc read it years ago, but he'd be interested on the various takes on this one...in a similar vein, has anybody read the ellison bio that came out a few years ago? very, very interesting...

the ellison story is fascinating...

[Greta Kin]

I read it after hearing much hype and was unmoved. It just didn't connect on any level. Go figure.

One thing that struck me most about it was the invisible women.

[country doctor]

probably no one ever rode so high in the literary community on the basis of just one book as ellison...although he continued to be esteemed and admired and put in the upper echelon literary circles, he spent the rest of his life trying to write a follow-up and never could do it...but he got alot of juice out of 'invisible man'...

[KilgoreT]

I read Invisible Man recently...would be happy to discuss and hear other readers' take on it.

[arrytus]

i read it after hearing much hype and was unmoved. It just didn't connect on any level. Go figure.



+1...

[the facade]

it is absolutely brilliant. changed my life.

[Jozanny]

Invisible Man is an accessible novel that happens to also be perplexing. I do not think calling it one of the top 100 novels in the English language is an exaggeration. From what I know about Ellison's life, I understand how some critics argue it is a marvel that the novel was written at all. I am confident in kasie's skills to do the text some justice.

[Virgil]

One of the great American novels. Definitely worth your time to read.

[_Shannon_]

I came on here looking for a book to read--and well, I think I found my winner. So I'll join in!

[Dark Muse]

I have just started reading the book, and I haven't got that far yet, but I have to say thus far I am really enjoying the prose of the book. I really like the way in which it is written and I am finding it to be quite engaging and look forward to reading more.

[Dark Muse]

I love the way in which there is such a dream-like quality to how he describes his life before he became the "invisible" man. The first chapter has an almost surreal feeling to it, and you can really feel the absolute madness of what is happening. In a way it almost reminded me of the last chapters of Steppenwolf, with the senseless brutality of violence, and you can visualize in your head the swirl of faces of the jeering and taunting audience.

And than in contrast the second chapter begins to unravel such an idyllic scenes. I loved his opening paragraphs in the way in which he describes the college, and I particularly enjoyed the moon imagery and references.

One thing which tends to annoy me in authors is when they become too verbose in describing the scenery and the landscape, to the point where it just seems to drone on and on. What I really enjoy in Ellison's writing is the way in which he can paint such a vivid picture in the readers mind without having to spend 20 pages talking about hills, grass, fields. To me, he is able to use less words, more effectively to give the reader that visual image without bringing the whole story to a screeching halt.

I am really enjoying now the car ride in which the narrator is driving the founder of the college.

[country doctor]

if the doc's recollecting clearly, he really enjoyed the 'first half' of the book alot better than the second half...of course those halves are approximate, but it does start out quite strong...

[Dark Muse]

The book certainly is starting off quite well. I find the writing to be very powerful and I am captivated thus far, so I shall see how things progress.

The whole "invisible man" concept I am curious to see just how it develops as the story continued, as I did find some of the results of his coming to this belief about himself as stated in the prologue to the story to be a bit improbable and somewhat contradictory. So I am looking forward to delving into a more detailed account of that.

[KilgoreT]

The first chapter, along with the prologue, certainly provides interesting imagery that is important to the whole book. Light, darkness, and color are all prominent and highly symbolic. The Battle Royale is a wonderful metaphor for the predicament black people found themselves in during that time period (first half of the twentieth century), even and especially for intelligent, motivated young people like the narrator. His scholarship, given by old white men, is surely devalued because he had to be humiliated and hurt by them before they would give it to him. The first chapter is very powerful, among the most powerful in the book in my opinion.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I agree with you about the power of the first chapter, it truly was quite a profound moment within the book which helps set the backdrop of the story, and highlights the humiliation of the narrator as well as the African-American population in general. He was so proud of himself with the speech in which he had to deliver and had such expectations, when he was thrown into that circus of madness in which he became to them nothing more than an object of mockery. This does help to build up to the moment in which he comes to his realization of himself as being an invisible man.

I like the point you make about the importance of the dark and light imagery particuarly, as this certainly does play a very prominent role within the prologue. I found those scenes quite interesting in which he felt such a driving need to fill his own room up with light.

[ScribbleScribe]

I'm on page 88 right now. It's sort of modern in...how it doesnt make much sense. The old white rich guy was a bit nonsensical in how he acted and, so far it seems very surreal. I like the prose though.

Oh and I was afraid to read this thread because I thought there might be spoilers. :D

[Dark Muse]

We try to avoid being being exposed to spoilers by requesting the use of spoiler warnings thus giving you a heads up to avoid reading such posts.

I myself quite enjoy the surreal aspect of it. I admit I am a bit uncertain about the meaning of the old man's speech about his dystiny being tied into the school and what happens with the school and how it is his fate.

I did find it quite interesting the way in which the scene in The Golden Day seemed almost to mirror the Battle Royal, and this theme of madness seems to be a reoccurring theme within the book, though I am still working on figuring out the meaning of this and role it plays in the greater scheme of things in the story.

[Dark Muse]

>>>>>>>>SPOILER CH 9 <<<<<<<<<<<



It seems to me as if Dr. Bledsoe (sp?) is overeating a bit to the incident with Mr. Norton and the Golden Day. It seems he is trying to make some sort of point, but I am not quite sure why his ultimate goal is in his rather elaborate scheme of giving the narrator a false impression that he will be allowed back into the school and telling him he would helping him find a job just to send him off with letters declaring that he had been expelled from the school and that they (the founders) should keep stringing him along. Is this meant to teach the narrator a lesson in someway? Is it purely to punish him? Or is there something within this seemingly cruel treatment that is meant to cure him of his naivety?

[kasie]

Sorry to have been so long starting this - I have been somewhat preoccupied with things lately.

My edition (Penguin Classics 2001) has an Introduction by John Callahan (I'm not sure who he is or why he was chosen to write the Introduction - can anyone help me here?) and an Author's Introduction dated 1981. I have skipped both of these though will probably go back and read them after I have read the book itself. There's another Thread running on this subject at the moment - I felt I want to come to the text as a reader would have come to it originally, with no fore-knowledge or pre-digested assessment. Then I realised this is probably not possible: I chose the book in the first place because having read some discussion of the book, some of it in this Forum, I thought it covered a subject which might interest me. Now, knowing a little of what the book is about, I wonder how much hindsight is getting in the way.

There again, reading the almost poetic Prologue, I wondered if I was going to need to ask for help with the background, coming to it as I do as a white, middle-class British woman. I found it compelling that, in reading the Prologue, it only gradually dawns on the reader that the narrator is black. It is not spelled out clearly but by the time the section closes, the reader is in no doubt of the situation - ***SPOILER***I have not yet quite worked out at what point this becomes clear: I think it is the juxtaposition of the Louis Armstrong music and the reefer-induced dream of the Sermon. I was a bit concerned that I would not be able to cope with a book filled with this highly charged prose so full of images but the narrative proper is rather more down-to-earth and the story moves along at a swift pace. Already (I'm on Chapter 3) some of the images in the Prologue have surfaced in the main narrative, the prize fighter, the white slave and the slave-owners. The Battle Royale is horrific, both as a piece of narrative and as a metaphor - I'm beginning to be angry on behalf of the protagonist already!

I look forward to reading further comments from you all.

[Jozanny]

kasie, Callahan was Ellison's literary executor, thus it is fitting that his introduction precedes Ellison's; he is also an African American Lit specialist, sort of like Zadie Smith getting a dept chair at Cam. Most major US universities have AA chairs, and contemporary black authors keep the tuition cash flow going. Europe is not so conscious of this identity agenda, I believe.

That said, I don't think Ellison himself would have been happy with this identity blossom in American academics, and if you are on the Battle Royale chapter, I think it is one of the most remarkable metaphors I've ever read on the quarrel between black & white in the US, and still beats out Morrison's tendency toward melodramatic guilt, even by current standards.

I am not going to reread the entire novel with Buddies, but I may stop in from time to time, as this remarkable book deserves some justice, even from my weary and strained powers :)

[kasie]

Thanks for the background info, Jozanny. Please forgive me if I ask obvious questions - as I said I come to the book from a somewhat different background.

I've got as far as the narrator going to the Principal's office after Chapel - skipping ahead into the next chapter (I can't put it down but I really must go and do a few other things for the moment!) it seems to me that this chapter ties in with the previous few chapters to make a unit of the story so I will refrain from making comments/asking further questions until I have read that.

[Jozanny]

Thanks for the background info, Jozanny. Please forgive me if I ask obvious questions - as I said I come to the book from a somewhat different background.

I've got as far as the narrator going to the Principal's office after Chapel - skipping ahead into the next chapter (I can't put it down but I really must go and do a few other things for the moment!) it seems to me that this chapter ties in with the previous few chapters to make a unit of the story so I will refrain from making comments/asking further questions until I have read that.

Nothing to forgive kasie, not to worry. You have enlightened me on more than one occasion, and unless I am like really off, I think European/Canadian sensibilities are baffled by the entrenched socio-economic divisions in the States. Ellison's American readers are not, and *get* what the narrator critiques or upholds. I too have time constraints, but I may reread a few chapters, annoyed that I can't put my hard copy in the kindle so I could just call up the Big Moments :)

I may come back after midnight to actually take a closer look at the Battle Royale chapter. It is nearly the mainframe that opens the novel, and I am willing to violate polite convention, (as always) to take a closer look at what Ellison achieves here, or doesn't.

[Jozanny]

Let me make some general observations before I select specific examples from the novel, gritting my teeth as I go. For those of you having trouble with the text, I do not know if I can help you by reminding you that Ellison freely moves from BVE to standard English over the course of the novel. I hear the BVE cadence every day and so had no trouble hearing the southern dialect that opens the book-- the dream sequence with the women in the prologue is a reminder to the Negro community as it existed in the 1950's that liberation (the freedom of the female voices) without social foundation is not much of anything at all.

Ellison's diction will become increasingly intricate during the protagonist's progression through the course of the narrative, and said protagonist will never name himself. There is a reason for this.
**
I am entertaining the idea of making a fool of myself and asking John McWhorter if he'd care to stop by the forum and crack a few eggs with me about Ellison; I doubt I have that kind of street cred, but he and I have sparred in the past and maybe he should be illuminating Invisible Man, as one of Ellison's rather powerful inheritors; I feel this strongly about it because this is one of the greatest novels ever written, and deserves a bit of vigor. We'll see.

[kasie]

BVE? Elucidate, please, if you would be so kind, Jozanny.

The 'voice' doeas not give me too much trouble, except I want to read it aloud to hear those musical cadences. We have extensive West Indian (or should I say African-American communities in UK so I have heard many kinds of rhythmic voice over the years.

[Dark Muse]

I found the namelessness of the narrator to be quite interesting, and it seems to be reflective of the way in which the narrator does not really have an identity of his own, and in fact does not know just who he really is, or where he is going. He has not had the opportunity of the ability to define himself upon his own terms, but is being torn in so many different directions by others, that he does take on all these different masks, personas to match the perceptions and expectations of others, but he does not have any real construct of who he truly is, only of what he feels he should be, or what he thinks others want him to be.

He is in a conflict along racial lines torn between racial lines, caught in the middle of wanting to do right by his own people and uplifting the race and filled with Bledsoe's ideas and his aspirations, at the same time, he is haunted by the words of his grandfather, and he has the struggle to have to try and appear in the way in which he thinks white people want, and what they would expect of him and how to make the African-American race seem positive in their eyes, and so he is forced into shame about aspects of his own culture.

His identity is also becomes torn between the North and the South, once he reaches New York and he suffers a bit of culture shock and he becomes caught between his past self and his Southern identity and trying to move forward into the future and develop a new Northern identity for himself and at this point it is also when he becomes disillusioned as the truth about Bledsoe is revealed, in which he is left completely lost without a direction to go in, since he had built up so much revolved around that one idea, that he has no more sense of himself once that was taken away from him.

One of the things which I find interesting is the way in which it seems Ellison intentionally points out to the reader the namelessness/identity loss of the narrator. As exampled when he was in the hospital and the doctor asked him who he was and he could not produce an answer to the question and was too disoriented to know his own name. Than later when he meets what I presume to be a communist, and he tells him to give him a call and than says "You don't have to give me your name." The fact that the narrator has no name within the story is being directly pointed out.

[Jozanny]

BVE? Elucidate, please, if you would be so kind, Jozanny.

The 'voice' doeas not give me too much trouble, except I want to read it aloud to hear those musical cadences. We have extensive West Indian (or should I say African-American communities in UK so I have heard many kinds of rhythmic voice over the years.

BVE = Black Vernacular English, also Black Eubonics I think, and this is McWhorter's field, as he is a linguist, and can parse Shakespeare's diction and hip hop in the same paragraph.

[kasie]

Thanks, Jozanny.

[Jozanny]

If my posts read tersely it is only due to my internal warfare. I'd like to really post in depth about this novel, but don't have the time to do so, and hence one disabled writer with a huge chip on her shoulder even daring to consider McWhorter is a kind of love and run cut out-- but just as a dare I may email him and see if he hurls his chip back :)

I thrive on adversaries, real or manufactured.

**
And I apologize to Dark Muse for butting in, but it is partly due to the fact that Ellison's voice does not leave me alone, and I struggle with it, turning it in my mind, biting off more than I can realistically handle, and this is my fault. I think I'm Super Woman, whereas I will be beating very long odds if Harvard's modernism blog actually takes an article from me, give or take five years and considering my health.

I will dig up this thread or start something else when I really want to tackle Ellison and the rich flowering that produced him.

Sorry, again.

[kasie]

I do hope this discussion has not died.

As I progress with the story I find myself becoming more and more distressed on behalf of the narrator. The scenes in the hospital are truly horrific - I'm sure my pulse raced and my blood pressure went up as I became as distressed as the Man (isn't it awkward trying to discuss him with no name?) - it's a long time since I came upon writing that has had such a powerful effect on me. I had to put the book aside for a while to let my feelings settle a little. Such appalling cruelty.

It seems that everyone he meets is using him for their own purpose whilst pretending to work on his behalf and to his good. So far the only congenial character (apart from the Man himself) is Mary. I would not trust the 'Brothers' as far as I could throw them.

So far, this is striking me as a Tragedy in the Classical sense - I am moved to Pity and Terror on the Man's behalf, Pity in that I am grieving for his treatment, Terror in that I suspect even worse is about to befall him. I am drawn to him in sympathy and at the same time I want to turn away in horror at the things that are happening to him. He is at the mercy of forces that seem intent on destroying him,all the while smiling and smiling and deceiving him.

I can see that the text would admit of almost line by line analysis and, despite wielding a pencil freely over the page (something I have not felt moved to do for years!), I do not feel equal to doing this without considerable re-reading. But I would be very interested in what others make of it.

[Dark Muse]

If my posts read tersely it is only due to my internal warfare. I'd like to really post in depth about this novel, but don't have the time to do so, and hence one disabled writer with a huge chip on her shoulder even daring to consider McWhorter is a kind of love and run cut out-- but just as a dare I may email him and see if he hurls his chip back :)

I thrive on adversaries, real or manufactured.

**
And I apologize to Dark Muse for butting in, but it is partly due to the fact that Ellison's voice does not leave me alone, and I struggle with it, turning it in my mind, biting off more than I can realistically handle, and this is my fault. I think I'm Super Woman, whereas I will be beating very long odds if Harvard's modernism blog actually takes an article from me, give or take five years and considering my health.

I will dig up this thread or start something else when I really want to tackle Ellison and the rich flowering that produced him.

Sorry, again.

No apologies are needed, all comments of any nature relating to the text are quite welcome, and you are welcome to pop in whenever you like with whatever you feel fit to offer to the discussion.

[Dark Muse]

I do hope this discussion has not died.

I hope it has not! And I am still here and reading along.


As I progress with the story I find myself becoming more and more distressed on behalf of the narrator. The scenes in the hospital are truly horrific - I'm sure my pulse raced and my blood pressure went up as I became as distressed as the Man (isn't it awkward trying to discuss him with no name?) - it's a long time since I came upon writing that has had such a powerful effect on me. I had to put the book aside for a while to let my feelings settle a little. Such appalling cruelty.

It is an interesting point upon the difficulties of trying to discuss a man whom has no name as indeed the very difficulties of trying to speak of him, while having nothing to refer to him by but as "the man" or as "the narrator" does reflect the very themes within the book, and in a way place the reader into that same position as viewing him as he imagines himself being viewed by society. He is left without an identity.

I also wonder if the way in which he is given no name is also a way of making him stand for something greater than himself. The story told is truly not the story of the plight of a single individual, but rather many of the things which he experiences many people of a variety of different backgrounds can relate to in so many different ways. It is a story I think that can go beyond both "the man" himself and can even go beyond the boundaries of race.

It is also interesting how particularly in today's current economy, thinking of the incident of the evictions, many of the difficulties which he faces within the book and comes across can still be seen as relevant today.


It seems that everyone he meets is using him for their own purpose whilst pretending to work on his behalf and to his good. So far the only congenial character (apart from the Man himself) is Mary. I would not trust the 'Brothers' as far as I could throw them.


So far, this is striking me as a Tragedy in the Classical sense - I am moved to Pity and Terror on the Man's behalf, Pity in that I am grieving for his treatment, Terror in that I suspect even worse is about to befall him. I am drawn to him in sympathy and at the same time I want to turn away in horror at the things that are happening to him. He is at the mercy of forces that seem intent on destroying him,all the while smiling and smiling and deceiving him.

I have mixed feelings about the Brotherhood, and the narrators role there. In some ways it seems of be a positive force for the narrator. It gave him a direction and focus in his life where he previously did not have one. After the discovery of the betrayal of Bledsoe, he was cast adrift, with no real sense of direction or purpose, and left stranded within this city alone with no where to go. It seems that he is naturally gifted as a speaker and the Brotherhood gives him an outlet for some of that pent up anger which resides within him, as well as allows him to use his natural talents.

Yet at the same time there is the undercurrent of an ominous feeling which runs through the background of it, that makes the reader feel as if things are mounting up to lead the narrator into a fall of some kind. And there is the fact of his own naivety in which he is sort of following blind into the brotherhood, and does not fully understand what he is venturing into and what the ultimate consequences of it may be. He is left in their hands and can do nothing but trust and follow their guidance, and it is true that there have been subtle warnings and suggestions to the narrator about the dangers of his using up his usefulness to the brotherhood.

[Jozanny]

Okay DM-- but my conflict as stated was genuine: Ellison, to me, is a tough nut to crack, unlike, say, Morrison-- and as such, it is not just rereading, but finding the right key to unlock what drives me crazy about the novel's position.

Ellison plummeted in popularity in the 60's as the black power movement took hold, and Malcolm X and King eclipsed all else; his star rose again in the 90's, with Obama, and for me it is a great deal to filter, which raises more questions. When I have time to give this man's vision its due, I'll let you know.

What was he actually encased in in the hospital, any thoughts there? I never could figure out if it was a real medical device or Ellison's invention.

[country doctor]

what's more interesting from the doc's perspective than ellison going in and out of popularity w/ the civil rights mover and shakers is his inability to produce a second novel while still being able to really create a brand and literary career off of basically just this one book...

he had literary positions,won numerous awards, and was elected to the american academy of arts and letters basically on the strength of this one book...there were essays and lectures and discussing many a topic w/ the literary giants of the time...

and, still, he was never able to produce that second book...

[Jozanny]

what's more interesting from the doc's perspective than ellison going in and out of popularity w/ the civil rights mover and shakers is his inability to produce a second novel while still being able to really create a brand and literary career off of basically just this one book...

he had literary positions,won numerous awards, and was elected to the american academy of arts and letters basically on the strength of this one book...there were essays and lectures and discussing many a topic w/ the literary giants of the time...

and, still, he was never able to produce that second book...

Technically, he completed a manuscript, but much like Musil, died before abandoning it, and I wear those hats, actually. If an editor assigns then I know how to shot gun an article; my own projects are hell, and never good enough, but it is a balance.

To defend Ellison, however, he created a masterpiece out of the gate; that is difficult and rare, and as a novel it is nearly perfectly written. Can't claim that about Anna Karenina, or Les Miserables.

[country doctor]

nobody's denying that he wrote a masterful work right out of the box...he did...but what's just as interesting from a view of ellison the writer is his attempt to bring something to the page for novel number two that he really couldn't do for a myriad of reasons it seems...maybe only one reason: he only had one novel in him...and it hardly seems fair to count what came after his death as something that he would have approved of, knowing how much time he put into trying to write the damn thing...

read the bio if you get a chance...a great companion piece to the book, really...

[Razeus]

Just finished the book.

WOW. Just wow. The metaphors (literally and figurative) are top notch. The story is excellent. I really felt sorry for the narrator at few parts, especially when he got to read the letter from the school. Talk about betrayal. I can relate to this story in many ways (I'm AA, btw). I loved how he didn't really blame others and just accepted what has happened to him and decided to get back into society. This is a great book and I highly recommend this. How this book doesn't get mention when people rattle of the Top 5 American literature is really doing people a disservice.

[keilj]

and, still, he was never able to produce that second book...

He did write it, but the manuscript burned up in a house fire

But it is a shame that we never got to see that second book

[kelby_lake]

To defend Ellison, however, he created a masterpiece out of the gate; that is difficult and rare, and as a novel it is nearly perfectly written. Can't claim that about Anna Karenina, or Les Miserables.

What?! I haven't read Les Mis but Anna Karenina is nearly perfectly written. Don't get me wrong, Invisible Man is a well-written novel but it is by no means perfectly written.

I am nearing the end of the novel and I enjoy it. The symbolism is all very obvious but it moves quite briskly and I'm happy to call it a modern classic.

[Jason Cardona]

Invisible Man is great, one of my favorites. The chapter "Battle Royal" is amazing. Ellison was a great writer.