The Bible as Literature: The Book of Jonah

[The Comedian]

Okay, we'll get the Bible as Literature thread going with the book of Jonah. As the moderators have noted, we'll start a new thread for each book that is selected. Speaking of "selected" -- I basically chose this book to start with. Once the conversation halts of fizzles out, then some other member is free to start a new thread on a different book. This way the topic of the conversation can be focused and directed.

Just a reminder that we'll be discussing the book of Jonah as literature and not as part of the doctrine of the Christian or Jewish tradition. Arguments against those traditions are equally discouraged.

Note regarding translation: I don't feel that there should be any common translation. I know that Drkshadow03 has suggested a couple and those versions are fine with me. Personally, I'm using my New Oxford Annotated Bible that I purchased in 1993 as an undergraduate.

. . . . . .
The Book of Jonah
Just to get things started, I'll lead with a quotation from my Bible's introduction to the text:


The book of Jonah is unique among the prophetic books [the second part of the Hebrew Bible, following the Torah]. It contains no collection of oracles in verse against Israel and foreign nations, but presents a prose narrative about the prophet himself. Instead of portraying a prophet who is an obedient servant of the Lord, calling his people to repentance, it features a recalcitrant prophet who flees from his mission and sulks when his hearers are present.

I'll read this book through tonight and post some reactions shortly thereafter.

[Drkshadow03]

. . . . . .
The Book of Jonah
Just to get things started, I'll lead with a quotation from my Bible's introduction to the text:

The book of Jonah is unique among the prophetic books [the second part of the Hebrew Bible, following the Torah]. It contains no collection of oracles in verse against Israel and foreign nations, but presents a prose narrative about the prophet himself. Instead of portraying a prophet who is an obedient servant of the Lord, calling his people to repentance, it features a recalcitrant prophet who flees from his mission and sulks when his hearers are present.

I'll read this book through tonight and post some reactions shortly thereafter.

I think your introduction is a good starting point. One element that stuck out to me was how different the narrative is from the other prophetic books. The other prophetic books read like we're reading the pronouncement of a real flesh and blood prophet. Whereas this book reads like a writer constructing a legend about a fictional prophet named Jonah. I think we might say the difference in the two narrative types is between an internal view versus an external view.

I think there are parallels for these stylistic differences in Jonah that can be found in the stories about the prophets Samuel and Elijah who appear in non-prophetic books, and therefore become caught up in larger narratives and become part of the story, not just what they have to say.

The main themes of the story seem to be:

1) God is everywhere and rules over everyone: you can't run from God.

2) the importance of responsibility: both God's and Jonah's.

3) prophecy and God as a medium towards wisdom.

Jonah tries to run from God and his responsibility at the beginning, possibly thinking and hoping on some level that God literally is only the God of Israel, and can't reach him outside of the land. Although Jonah states the nature of his God to the sailors, he doesn't act like he truly believes that his God created the world and could destroy him at any moment.

Of course, since the Hebrew conception is of an omnipotent monotheistic deity, this doesn't work out so well for Jonah. This God is everywhere and controls everything; you can't escape him by boarding a ship and simply crossing boundaries. Likewise, this a God for everybody. Since there is only one God, he is not only the God of the Hebrews, but the God of all people, even those who don't believe in Him or know His ways. This seems to be one of the major points of the story.

The beginning and the end form a symmetry. God could have easily sinked the entire ship to get a Jonah, but like the city of Ninevites at the end, they are ignorant of God's laws. It would be wrong to sink them just to get at Jonah. And they repent of their crimes after throwing Jonah overboard. Due to their ignorance of God's commandments and their repentance for their misdeeds, the sailors are meant to be read as counterparts to the Ninevites.

God renounces the punishment on the Ninevites because the citizens repent. This is supposed to show God's mercy and contrasts well with the other prophetic books. If you genuinely repent and actually listen to the prophets, God will hold back his judgement and punishment.

Jonah's motivations are interesting as well. This is around the time when the Assyrians are threatening Israel. With this in mind, God is asking Jonah to help his own country's enemy by delivering this prophetic warning and allowing the chance at repentance. Jonah also implies after God grants repentance that he is embarrassed that the prophecy that came out of his mouth didn't come true. He would rather die than be known for speaking lies and false prophecies that don't come to pass. The book posits and hints at a couple of reasons for Jonah's reluctance. There also seems to be a lingering question of how much Jonah understands God. He walks a good walk, but doesn't always completely understand the God he is supposed to believe in; I think this evidence at the beginning where he tries to flee God.

God creates a plant to shade Jonah and give him comfort as a way of teaching him a lesson that will hopefully make him wiser in the future because Jonah is so distressed about Nineveh being spared judgement. The next day God sends a worm/maggot to devour the plant, grieving Jonah to the point of him melodramatically declaring he wants to die again because he suffers from the heat.

God tries to give him perspective. Jonah cares more about a plant and his own comfort than the lives of innocent people in this enemy city, which suggests Jonah's priorities are all messed up. Instead he should be helping other people and care more for their welfare than his own comfort, even if it comes at the expense of your own personal comfort, even if it comes at the expense of your own people's welfare and safety. It conforms with the repeated reminder in other sections of the Bible to care for the stranger. I think this final section also draws our attention to the real thrust of the narrative; this was never really been about Nineveh repenting and learning its lesson, but about Jonah repenting and learning his lesson. The reason God puts up with all this disrespect from Jonah is the same reason he gives the people of Nineveh the chance to repent. Jonah has a lesson to learn here as well. This is a God who cares about all people and has a duty towards all people, even the enemies of the Hebrews.

[stlukesguild]

I'll grab by KJV and give Jonah a good reading tonight under the electric blanket. Just some thoughts coming from the visual arts side of the story:

Jonah, whose name means "dove" was often seen as a precursor of Christ. In Michelangelo's Sistine murals he is the most important, explosive, and dynamic figure of the whole painting... his muscular body virtually bursts out of its architectural frame as he... the prophet... looks back in awe across the whole ceiling at the unfolding wonders of the creation narratives of Genesis.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5121/5230286795_ef992756a5_b.jpg

His placement by Michelangelo... undoubtedly developed with the input of one of the Papal scholars who was an expert on iconography... is in no way accidental. He towers over the altar and over the figure of Christ (again prefiguring him) in the Last Judgment immediately below:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5049/5230286853_90807c1a8e_z.jpg

Of course, early Christian theologians could not help but recognize an analogy between Jonah who spent three days in the stomach of the whale, and Christ who spent three days interred before the Resurrection.

[papayahed]

IJonah's motivations are interesting as well. This is around the time when the Assyrians are threatening Israel. With this in mind, God is asking Jonah to help his own country's enemy by delivering this prophetic warning and allowing the chance at repentance. Jonah also implies after God grants repentance that he is embarrassed that the prophecy that came out of his mouth didn't come true. He would rather die than be known for speaking lies and false prophecies that don't come to pass.

The version I read said Jonah was angry that the Ninevites weren't destroyed, that they did not get what they deserved.

[Drkshadow03]

The version I read said Jonah was angry that the Ninevites weren't destroyed, that they did not get what they deserved.

Yeah, I think probably the main motivation is his frustration that God didn't carry out the prophecy and destroy the city, especially since I believe the background is the wartime situation between the Hebrew kingdoms and Assyria (of which Nineveh was one of the main cities of the growing Assyrian empire).

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I was thinking about the Biblical story's relationship to Melville's Moby Dick. It seems to me that Moby Dick is an inversion of this story. If we identify Ahab with Jonah--whereas Jonah runs away from his fate--Ahab runs obsessively towards it; instead of the sailors that repent in the Jonah story and are spared by God, we have sailors who are dragged along to their death with our Jonah figure (Ahab). Instead of a protective fish, we have a monstrous whale (who I would also identify with Leviathan from Genesis 1).

[YesNo]

The story starts in the middle of the action between the Lord and Jonah. It seems to me they have been at each other for years and things have come to a head with the most recent request to go to Nineveh.

Jonah tries to escape. At first he thinks physical distance will set him free. Then he sees the Lord chasing him with a storm and he prefers death to being overtaken. He encourages the other people on the boat to kill him by throwing him into the water. And finally they do.

Perhaps he actually drowned? Whatever physically happened he next finds himself in an unusual situation. He is conscious inside what appears to be a big fish. He waits for annihilation, but nothing happens. He is like someone in a casket, sealed in a crypt below 6 feet of dirt who finds he is still alive, but doesn't need air or food. Death is no longer an escape plan. And he will be there "forever" (2:7).

It takes Jonah 3 days to come to his senses. It would probably take most of us less than 3 minutes. He realizes that he cannot die unless the Lord specifically annihilates him. He prays and the Lord delivers him from "Sheol" (2:3).

Back on earth Jonah continues his normal ways. Like most of us, he pursues pleasure and avoids pain. He grudging tells the Ninevites that they will be destroyed, but anticipates their destruction with pleasure. When they repent, he is annoyed and this disappointment gives him pain. So much pain that he wants to die, but he remembers from his experience with the fish that only the Lord can truly annihilate him. So he asks the Lord to kill him (4:3). The Lord doesn't.

Just to show that this game with the Lord has been going on for some time, the book ends with the Lord again teasing Jonah with a plant that gives Jonah shade. Jonah clearly likes this plant (4:6). But then the Lord destroys the plant and this annoys Jonah so much he asks for death from the Lord once again (4:8).

Jonah longs to get away from the game of pleasure and pain that the Lord is playing with him. He would prefer only pleasure, but if he has to have both, he would prefer death (or better annihilation). But the Lord won't kill him. So Jonah can't die, and that is the problem from Jonah's perspective.

From the Lord's perspective, Jonah is selfish. He didn't care about the people on the boat but slept when they were in fear. He didn't care about their guilt when he asked them to kill him. He didn't care about the Ninevites, but wanted to watch the butt-kicking the Lord was supposed to provide. He didn't care about the plant except that it provided him with shade.

From the Lord's perspective, Jonah doesn't know how to die and the only thing that needs to die in Jonah is his selfishness. And then it's game over.

(Quotes are from The Jewish Study Bible.)

[The Comedian]

I really enjoyed the posts thus far -- Drkshadow03, you really hit on several compelling issues of the story. The first one that struck me is the idea of responsibility. Jonah's flight from God's command to help his (Jonah's) enemy (the people of Nineveh). In this flight, we see that Jonah recognizes neither his responsibility as a prophet nor God's responsibility as the one God of all people.

Jonah's repeated failures as a prophet makes me wonder if the readers and listeners of the story were meant to associate themselves with Jonah -- I mean, his failures as a prophet suggest that he does not understand the big G very well, and that his relationship with him is one of constant learning and forgiveness.

One thing leads to another, I guess. When I finished reading this book, I wondered why we were never told what Jonah said/did to turn the city of Nineveh. I mean -- it must have been astonishing. But we never see/hear/or read it. We only get the story of Jonah's failures.

Aside: Does this old testament God seem incredibly forgiving to you? He protects and pardons Jonah's many transgressions then sets out to save the Assyrians, the enemies of Israel. Maybe if we read a more, I'll refine this idea.


Jonah tries to run from God and his responsibility at the beginning, possibly thinking and hoping on some level that God literally is only the God of Israel, and can't reach him outside of the land. Although Jonah states the nature of his God to the sailors, he doesn't act like he truly believes that his God created the world and could destroy him at any moment.

Of course, since the Hebrew conception is of an omnipotent monotheistic deity, this doesn't work out so well for Jonah. This God is everywhere and controls everything; you can't escape him by boarding a ship and simply crossing boundaries. Likewise, this a God for everybody. Since there is only one God, he is not only the God of the Hebrews, but the God of all people, even those who don't believe in Him or know His ways. This seems to be one of the major points of the story.

You're totally right -- I can't believe that I didn't think of this before, but one element of the story is clearly to demonstrate the boundaries of God's authority and to illustrate that human territories are not those recognized by the big G.

There's more to come. . . but my kids woke up from nap and I have to go. Oh, one more thing, I found this neat map of Jonah's trip. Sometimes images like this help me visualize the events of the story:

http://www.esv.org/assets/blog/2007.03.jonah.jpg

[BienvenuJDC]

Jonah, whose name means "dove" was often seen as a precursor of Christ.

I was not aware that this was the meaning of his name. This is quite ironic (in addition to the rest of the information that you presented about being a "type" to Christ.


The version I read said Jonah was angry that the Ninevites weren't destroyed, that they did not get what they deserved.

I think that your interpretation is right on the money, papaya. The Jews thought of themselves as "God's chosen people", as well they were...in certain respects. I think that Jonah demonstrates the "arrogant" attitude (if I may say so), that the Jews has against the Gentiles (non-Jews) at that time. I think that Chapter 4 shows quite well that Jonah was looking for a "front row seat" to watch the destruction of a nation. He was greatly disappointed.

This is where such great irony comes in. If he was a "dove" of peace (which it doesn't seem that he was...and if he was to be "Christ-like", then where was the "mercy" and "peaceful" attitude? We often hear so much about "Jonah and the Whale", which is a lesson focusing on Jonah's faithfulness to God. I like the lesson of "Jonah and the Worm", which has a much different focus of Jonah's merciful attitude (or lack thereof).

[stlukesguild]

One of the great discoveries that one makes upon reading the Bible (as with some other literature) is how it surprisingly differs from our expectations. With the Bible, this is especially true because of the voluminous wealth of theological commentary and interpretation... which often ran quite contrary to what exists in the actual texts. By way of an example, I think of the theological interpretations that sought to reduce the Song of Solomon into a symbolic expression of the love of Christ (The Bridegroom) for his church (the Bride/Shulamite). Obviously, the song of love and eros was not acceptable as it stood.

[Drkshadow03]

I think that your interpretation is right on the money, papaya. The Jews thought of themselves as "God's chosen people", as well they were...in certain respects. I think that Jonah demonstrates the "arrogant" attitude (if I may say so), that the Jews has against the Gentiles (non-Jews) at that time. I think that Chapter 4 shows quite well that Jonah was looking for a "front row seat" to watch the destruction of a nation. He was greatly disappointed.


The original author(s) of this text and the original audience was most likely a Jewish or Hebrew one. It doesn't really make much sense, therefore, to suggest that the author was attempting to depict the arrogant attitude of the Jew towards the gentile given this fact. Instead the Hebrew author of the text seems to have had the goal to point out that God is a universal one who has power over all and cares for all peoples, which is not only part of modern mainstream Judaism today, but clearly an idea circulating during the "Jews" of the time since they're the ones writing the text and reading it.

Since I've been glib with language up to this point, I'd also point out there were no Jews at the time. There were no Jews until the return from the Babylonian exile. There were only Hebrews, and Jonah refers to himself as such.

I don't think Jonah's attitude is so much arrogance towards gentiles (or at least his attitude isn't something uniquely Jewish, but most of the ancient cultures of Mediterranean showed similar attitudes and hostility towards their enemies), but the issue is that Jonah's nation is currently being threatened by the Assyrian nation, and Nineveh is a major Assyrian city. He doesn't want to aid an enemy with his prophecy. It's less, "I hope these outsiders suffer because I don't like people like them" than "I hope these bastards who are killing our women and children suffer so we aren't all wiped out by them."

[BienvenuJDC]

The original author(s) of this text and the original audience was most likely a Jewish or Hebrew one. It doesn't really make much sense, therefore, to suggest that the author was attempting to depict the arrogant attitude of the Jew towards the gentile given this fact. Instead the Hebrew author of the text seems to have had the goal to point out that God is a universal one who has power over all and cares for all peoples, which is not only part of modern mainstream Judaism today, but clearly an idea circulating during the "Jews" of the time since they're the ones writing the text and reading it.

Since I've been glib with language up to this point, I'd also point out there were no Jews at the time. There were no Jews until the return from the Babylonian exile. There were only Hebrews, and Jonah refers to himself as such.

I don't think Jonah's attitude is so much arrogance towards gentiles (or at least his attitude isn't something uniquely Jewish, but most of the ancient cultures of Mediterranean showed similar attitudes and hostility towards their enemies), but the issue is that Jonah's nation is currently being threatened by the Assyrian nation, and Nineveh is a major Assyrian city. He doesn't want to aid an enemy with his prophecy. It's less, "I hope these outsiders suffer because I don't like people like them" than "I hope these bastards who are killing our women and children suffer so we aren't all wiped out by them."

I can definitely agree with the comments about "hating the enemy", but from the general attitude that the Israelites* is carried out even through the New Testament times. When Peter was told to go to the house of Cornelius (not a violent enemy per se, but an enemy as a Roman officer), Peter wanted to resist due to his "Gentile" status. The Jews (Hebrews) were not supposed to eat with or socialize with ANY Gentiles. Therefore, my assessment of the cultural attitudes, even ethnic prejudices, of Hebrews to non-Hebrews is legitimate. Even Abraham sent his servant to find a wife for his son Isaac (Rebekah), from his won people, as to not defile the bloodline with the Canaanite people.

*(Jews, Hebrews, or however we refer them...and I agree that the term Jew was a post-exhilic term derived from "Judah", but I used it in a generic reference from New Testament cultural attitudes)

[YesNo]

Jonah's repeated failures as a prophet makes me wonder if the readers and listeners of the story were meant to associate themselves with Jonah -- I mean, his failures as a prophet suggest that he does not understand the big G very well, and that his relationship with him is one of constant learning and forgiveness.

I suspect you are saying this, but as a prophet, Jonah "is the most successful in the Bible" to quote Ehud Ben Zvi's introduction to the book in The Jewish Study Bible. Everyone, including beasts, fasted, put on sackcloth and sat in ashes (3:6). It seems absurd that this should happen, but it just emphasizes the point that the book is clearly intended as a fanciful story with an important moral message.

As a human being Jonah has character faults that most of us have to some degree. I suspect the intent of the author is that Jonah represents every one of us.



One thing leads to another, I guess. When I finished reading this book, I wondered why we were never told what Jonah said/did to turn the city of Nineveh. I mean -- it must have been astonishing. But we never see/hear/or read it. We only get the story of Jonah's failures.


The only thing that Jonah says is "Forty days more, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" (3:4)

I think the author intended the reader to understand that Jonah said nothing besides this. This makes Jonah's success with the Ninevites even more astounding. He didn't have to do much to convince them.

I don't know when the book was originally written, but if I understand Ehud Ben Avi correctly, the earliest readers knew that Nineveh "had long been totally destroyed and never rebuilt". This would mean that Nineveh was not a threat to them at the time and they could focus on the moral message rather than any prophecy in the book.

[JBI]

One of the great discoveries that one makes upon reading the Bible (as with some other literature) is how it surprisingly differs from our expectations. With the Bible, this is especially true because of the voluminous wealth of theological commentary and interpretation... which often ran quite contrary to what exists in the actual texts. By way of an example, I think of the theological interpretations that sought to reduce the Song of Solomon into a symbolic expression of the love of Christ (The Bridegroom) for his church (the Bride/Shulamite). Obviously, the song of love and eros was not acceptable as it stood.

No, but the allegorical reading of it as a relationship between God and the People is perhaps a little bit interesting to humor - it certainly makes a lot more sense than anything dealing with Christ.

[Drkshadow03]

I don't know when the book was originally written, but if I understand Ehud Ben Avi correctly, the earliest readers knew that Nineveh "had long been totally destroyed and never rebuilt". This would mean that Nineveh was not a threat to them at the time and they could focus on the moral message rather than any prophecy in the book.

Produced: Late fifth to fourth century BC, but the story's background is in the 8th century when Assyria was threatening Israel.


I can definitely agree with the comments about "hating the enemy", but from the general attitude that the Israelites* is carried out even through the New Testament times. When Peter was told to go to the house of Cornelius (not a violent enemy per se, but an enemy as a Roman officer), Peter wanted to resist due to his "Gentile" status. The Jews (Hebrews) were not supposed to eat with or socialize with ANY Gentiles. Therefore, my assessment of the cultural attitudes, even ethnic prejudices, of Hebrews to non-Hebrews is legitimate. Even Abraham sent his servant to find a wife for his son Isaac (Rebekah), from his won people, as to not defile the bloodline with the Canaanite people.

*(Jews, Hebrews, or however we refer them...and I agree that the term Jew was a post-exhilic term derived from "Judah", but I used it in a generic reference from New Testament cultural attitudes)

But, of course, the Israelites themselves probably were Canaanites. So there is really more going on in that story. Marrying gentiles very rarely is an issue of "mixing blood" and almost always an issue of adopting pagan ways and abandoning your own cultural and religious practices from the perspective of the Bible, which is what invariably shown to happen with the characters who do marry outside their own people.

As for the New Testament, once again when we consider audience and the writer(s) we always need to keep in mind the producers was one Jewish sect trying to score points over other Jewish sects rather than an actual realistic depiction of the other side's thoughts.

In other words, you don't know if you're dealing with an accurate portrait of Jews of the times and particularly other Jewish sects or a literary Strawman: "See how these Jews act towards other people, it's wrong, but we Christians who practice the correct form of Judaism don't do this, so therefore you should join us."

[BienvenuJDC]

But, of course, the Israelites themselves probably were Canaanites.

Well, I don't think that the historical records reflect that, but I'm not going to make it an item of contention.


In other words, you don't know if you're dealing with an accurate portrait of Jews of the times and particularly other Jewish sects or a literary Strawman: "See how these Jews act towards other people, it's wrong, but we Christians who practice the correct form of Judaism shouldn't do this, so we can recruit more people to our cause."

I think that many of the Jewish/Hebrew works paint the Israelite nation as being equally "bad." Of the literary works and cultural/historical records, the Jewish Scriptures depict it's own culture just as much in a good light as it does a bad light. This would make me believe that it is probably more accurate, rather than a culture that only records the "best of times." This is also reflected in many aspects of the Christian writings. Many of the followers are depicted in their struggles as well as their strengths, but probably more so in their struggles.

[L.M. The Third]

I too saw Jonah as a type of Christ. There are certain similarities between Jonah's prayer, in chapter two, and Psalms which have often been applied as Messianic prophecies. And, as Stlukes mentioned, Jesus in the New Testament refers to Jonah's experience as symbolic of his arrest, trial, death and burial.

Obviously, Jonah diverges from that pattern in his attitudes and flight. So I saw the primary theme as being God's relationship with man. We have Jonah, the prophet who decides he knows better than God about the fate of this great, apparently notoriously evil, city of his nation's enemies. Why should they deserve to be warned? And then God gives him an experience he describes as "hell". So God offers mercy to the Ninevites and to the sailors, who could be considered less responsible than Jonah, who is reproved and chastised for deciding what God should and should not do. Jonah, under the gourd, asks to die, for both his idea of God and his word as a prophet have been placed in a changed position.

I see a God who lays the glory of man in the dust, yet still shows mercy and cares for all. It's the very opposite of human nature.

[papayahed]

I too saw Jonah as a type of Christ. There are certain similarities between Jonah's prayer, in chapter two, and Psalms which have often been applied as Messianic prophecies. And, as Stlukes mentioned, Jesus in the New Testament refers to Jonah's experience as symbolic of his arrest, trial, death and burial.


How so?




I took the whole thing to be about not worrying about your enemies and not to wish bad onto others.

[L.M. The Third]

How so?


You mean how does Jesus use Jonah's experience symbolically? The verse is Matthew 12:40. Because Jesus was not in the tomb for three days and three nights, I've understood it to mean that time during which the sins of the world were laid upon Him and He went through the experiences of mental and spiritual anguish and "hell" described in the Psalms. (But maybe that's waxing too spiritual for this thread.)
I think I worded that wrong. Jonah is an antithetical type of Christ. He is given a mission to go to a dangerous, wicked, enemy people, but rather than sacrificing himself in obedience, he does his own will, rather than that of Him who sent him.

[YesNo]

I took the whole thing to be about not worrying about your enemies and not to wish bad onto others.
As I think about it that sounds like a good way to describe the message of the story.

I was trying to get more information about the relationship between the Lord and Jonah out of the story and how it transcended death when Jonah was in the fish, but the author may not have cared about that as much as the message you described.

[Drkshadow03]

As I think about it that sounds like a good way to describe the message of the story.

I was trying to get more information about the relationship between the Lord and Jonah out of the story and how it transcended death when Jonah was in the fish, but the author may not have cared about that as much as the message you described.

Also: the story functions as a sort of commentary on the other prophetic books. It contrasts the Hebrew's reception of the prophetic message in other books with Nineveh's reception of that message.

Nineveh repents and is spared because they believe the prophetic message, while the Hebrews ignored their prophets and their warnings of doom; all of which is brought home with a wonderful sense of irony by the fact that its one of the enemies who is the subject of quite a few of the other prophet's prophecies that threatens to annihilate Israel since the Hebrews chose not to repent.

[papayahed]

You mean how does Jesus use Jonah's experience symbolically? The verse is Matthew 12:40. Because Jesus was not in the tomb for three days and three nights, I've understood it to mean that time during which the sins of the world were laid upon Him and He went through the experiences of mental and spiritual anguish and "hell" described in the Psalms. (But maybe that's waxing too spiritual for this thread.)
I think I worded that wrong. Jonah is an antithetical type of Christ. He is given a mission to go to a dangerous, wicked, enemy people, but rather than sacrificing himself in obedience, he does his own will, rather than that of Him who sent him.

Thanks, I get where you are coming from now. Other then the three days I couldn't see the connection. Well that, and that I've never read the bible.


As I think about it that sounds like a good way to describe the message of the story.

I was trying to get more information about the relationship between the Lord and Jonah out of the story and how it transcended death when Jonah was in the fish, but the author may not have cared about that as much as the message you described.

I'm sure there's more to it then that, it's just the most glaring lesson that jumped out at me.

[OrphanPip]

I've always thought that it was exceedingly fortunate for the people of Nineveh that they had such a large supply of excess sackcloth to go around.

[papayahed]

I've always thought that it was exceedingly fortunate for the people of Nineveh that they had such a large supply of excess sackcloth to go around.

And the animals. Don't forget the animals.

[YesNo]

I too saw Jonah as a type of Christ. There are certain similarities between Jonah's prayer, in chapter two, and Psalms which have often been applied as Messianic prophecies.
According to the notes from the text I'm using (The Jewish Study Bible), Jonah's prayer was "a pastiche of different verses taken from Psalms". In checking out a few of these, it looks like he was rambling, repeating what came to his mind. Were I in his situation, I doubt I could do better.

This could have been the intent of the author to present Jonah as someone who finally gave up his resistance and tried to pray, but all he could come up with were bits and pieces of the psalms he had more or less memorized. The author might have been mocking Jonah with the prayer the author constructed.

The note, however, says: "Jonah is thereby presented as a person well versed in the language of Psalms and able to compose a sophisticated prayer on their basis." But, I would add, not versed enough to quote these passages correctly.


And the animals. Don't forget the animals.
Yes, I did find this amusing in Jonah (3:8): "They shall be covered with sackcloth--man and beast--and shall cry mightily to God."

I guess the beasts finally got a chance to get dressed up.

[Drkshadow03]

According to the notes from the text I'm using (The Jewish Study Bible), Jonah's prayer was "a pastiche of different verses taken from Psalms". In checking out a few of these, it looks like he was rambling, repeating what came to his mind. Were I in his situation, I doubt I could do better.

This could have been the intent of the author to present Jonah as someone who finally gave up his resistance and tried to pray, but all he could come up with were bits and pieces of the psalms he had more or less memorized. The author might have been mocking Jonah with the prayer the author constructed.

The note, however, says: "Jonah is thereby presented as a person well versed in the language of Psalms and able to compose a sophisticated prayer on their basis." But, I would add, not versed enough to quote these passages correctly.


Yes, I did find this amusing in Jonah (3:8): "They shall be covered with sackcloth--man and beast--and shall cry mightily to God."

I guess the beasts finally got a chance to get dressed up.

I was using the Jewish Publication Society translation, but I opened up my Soncino Edition of Penteuch and Haftorahs since it's well foot-noted and also has the Hebrew.

One note says about Jonah's Psalm: "There are many resemblances in thought and expression between Jonah's psalm and the Psalter; but it should not therefore be assumed that the Book of Psalms is being consciously quoted. 'The words of the Psalter are not exactly and literally quoted, but its idioms and phrases are freely wrought into the prayer, as if drawn from the well-stored memory of a pious Israelite familiar with its contents and naturally giving vent to his feelings in the cherished form' (Perowne)
.

And the animals. Don't forget the animals.

The same edition also has the note: "The practice of making beasts join in mourning is not unusual. A parallel can be found in the Apocryphal Book of Judith, IV, 10, and Herodotus reports it of the Persians. The reason is not that the animals, too, are in need of forgiveness, but that the withholding of food from beasts is an added grief and penance for their owners" (Metzudath David).

[YesNo]

The same edition also has the note: "The practice of making beasts join in mourning is not unusual. A parallel can be found in the Apocryphal Book of Judith, IV, 10, and Herodotus reports it of the Persians. The reason is not that the animals, too, are in need of forgiveness, but that the withholding of food from beasts is an added grief and penance for their owners" (Metzudath David).
I can see how that could cause their owners additional pain.

[L.M. The Third]

The same edition also has the note: "The practice of making beasts join in mourning is not unusual. A parallel can be found in the Apocryphal Book of Judith, IV, 10, and Herodotus reports it of the Persians. The reason is not that the animals, too, are in need of forgiveness, but that the withholding of food from beasts is an added grief and penance for their owners" (Metzudath David).

That's interesting. After all, the cattle were not to be underestimated, as seen in the book's closing words. Whether that was from God's concern for the poor beasts or from an economic standpoint I'm not so sure as I once was. :biggrin5:

But I think it's also meant, almost as a trope, to emphasize the seriousness of the situation, like the mandate in Exodus that a beast touching Mount Sinai was to be put to death. But to our minds it certainly brings up ridiculous images.

[YesNo]

Was Jonah written as a fictional work or an historical, non-fictional work?

At one level, the question involves whether Jonah was actually swallowed by something that might be viewed as a "fish" or that he actually went to Nineveh. It is convenient for sacred books to be viewed as histories for then one can view them as huge axiom systems handed down by God on which one can try to draw conclusions. If the work is fictional where the benefit is based on allegory this use of the text is not as clear.

Personally, I think the book is fictional, but the author intends it to have an important message about how people should behave in relation to the Lord.

At a deeper level, the question is whether Jonah's faults are historical descriptions of Hebrew or Jewish personality issues or whether the author is talking about all people.

Here, I also think the author means for Jonah, with all his faults, to be about ALL people who could come into a relationship with the Lord and not just Jewish people, although the audience available to the author was limited at the time to those who were Jewish. That is, the author is not trying to historically portray Hebrew or Jewish people. Jonah represents all of us.

Am I getting this right about the text?

[Haunted]

Me too, I see it as fiction, they read like fables. The drowning is a rich symbolism as water is always significant in literature: sea change, baptism, etc. And being swallowed by a fish is also symbolic: fish and fishing is a key theme in Christianity. I don't think the Bible is supposed to be taken literally.

[Drkshadow03]

I don't want to rush anyone since this conversation is still going on, not to mention this is the Comedian's project, but I was curious when people wanted to start deciding what the next book will be?

[papayahed]

I don't see how it can be anything but fiction. Seriously, it's a little far fetched to believe Jonah was in a fish for three days but even more unbelievable, He went to the town of his enemies and all of them down to the beasts listened to him.

[BienvenuJDC]

I don't see how it can be anything but fiction. Seriously, it's a little far fetched to believe Jonah was in a fish for three days but even more unbelievable, He went to the town of his enemies and all of them down to the beasts listened to him.

Unless there truly was Divine intervention...it does say that God "prepared" a great fish.

[papayahed]

Unless there truly was Divine intervention...it does say that God "prepared" a great fish.

"preparing" a great fish makes less sense, what does that mean?

[BienvenuJDC]

Making a sea creature that would be inhabitable (not comfortable) for a human. If God can make the heavens and the earth and all that is in it, then why couldn't He?

[YesNo]

Making a sea creature that would be inhabitable (not comfortable) for a human. If God can make the heavens and the earth and all that is in it, then why couldn't He?
The fish is the only part of the events in the story that could possibly be true since it could have been a hellish near-death experience.

However, I don't think the author intended the story to be a NDE account nor for any part of the story to be true except for the kind of relationship that could exist between Jonah and the Lord. The author was describing a relationship that appeared hostile to Jonah who was not getting what he wanted from the Lord, but may well have been a loving relationship from the Lord's perspective who was trying to get Jonah to change his ways.

From a spiritual perspective, the story is more powerful as fiction than as non-fiction since as fiction it becomes direct a message to all of us.

[The Comedian]

From a spiritual perspective, the story is more powerful as fiction than as non-fiction since as fiction it becomes direct a message to all of us.

This is a good point YesNo. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy reading the Biblical texts.

I just wanted to add a few more discussion points before we move on to another part of the Bible. Drkshadow03 suggested Melville's inversion of the Jonah story to structure the characters and plot of Moby-Dick. I thought it was an excellent point, one that I did not have time to comment upon until now.

It seemed to me that Melville uses an inverted Jonah to structure Ahab -- an openly blasphemous prophet who is seeking for a communication with G-d. Additionally, I think Jonah also helps to give shape to Ishmael as well. He's a hasty traveler who seems to be running from something (boredom, an existential crisis. . . .) who participates in events much more grand than what he's expecting. In some ways he, like Jonah is a reluctant prophet, though the tone of Moby-Dick is much more grim. . .the story of Jonah is that G-d is more compassionate and forgiving than humans can understand and in Moby-Dick, G-d seems to be more menacing than we can understand.

I'm reminded of "The Sermon" chapter from Moby-Dick. In that chapter Ishmael attends a Sunday service before setting out. In that sermon, the minister narrates the Jonah story in a way to remind the listeners that God is harsh and often puts people in conflict with themselves:


But all the things that God would have us do are hard for us to do- remember that- and hence, he oftener commands us than endeavors to persuade. And if we obey God, we must disobey ourselves; and it is in this disobeying ourselves, wherein the hardness of obeying God consists. (Moby-Dick Chapter IX)

And later in the sermon, when the minister is wrapping up his narration of Jonah, one message becomes clear: that God is terrifying. Not only that, but our proper reaction to the divine is one of humble & obedient terror.

From the same chapter,



I am a Hebrew,' he cries- and then- 'I fear the Lord the God of Heaven who hath made the sea and the dry land!' Fear him, O Jonah? Aye, well mightest thou fear the Lord God then!

But I think that, for Melville at least, this terror doesn't necessarily come from God. . . that God isn't terrible (this is Ahab's blasphemy) but that God is so vast and so unhuman that it's our human reaction to his presence that's terrible. To illustrate this Melville often has Ishmael draw comparisons between God and the sea, while Ahab compares God with the white whale.

. . . . . . .

Anyway, getting back to the Biblical story of Jonah, and thought that this look at Moby-Dick helped me see Jonah's struggles a little better: that one could see the story as demonstrating the variety of ways that a Hebrew could fear G-d: one could fear his commands (as Jonah does in the beginning when he flees to Joppa), one could fear his manifestations (as Jonah does when he witnesses the storm at sea), and one could fear one's own relationship with G-d (which he, arguably, does when he pouts by the shade-bush because G-d's he cannot understand forgiveness).

. . . . .

[The Comedian]

So the conversation around this book has slowed. Any suggestions of another Biblical selection?

[The Atheist]

So the conversation around this book has slowed. Any suggestions of another Biblical selection?

I have been watching this thread, and no doubt there have been expectations of my entry into it. Well, here I am - I'd been waiting for the discussion on Jonah's literary value to start.

Thus far, I can't find a single reference to literature in the thread. It seems to be more a bible discussion of the book, so maybe the threads should just be entitled "Bible study: The Book of ............."?

For what it's worth, in literary terms, Jonah is a nice fable, reasonably well-written, but in comparison to similar contemporary works, falls well short of excellence. Many Greek legends, Aesop and even some Latin literature do the job far better, in my view.

I would actually be quite interested in the literary perspective of others, because Jonah is often held as a strong example of the bible's literary worth and I have difficulty figuring what's so good about it.

[Drkshadow03]

So the conversation around this book has slowed. Any suggestions of another Biblical selection?

How about Genesis 6 -8 the Noah flood story?

[Haunted]

How about Genesis 6 -8 the Noah flood story?

That's a good one!

[YesNo]

Yes, Genesis 6-8 sounds relevant.

I just read the Sermon chapter from Moby Dick that The Comedian referenced. Repentance without expectation of deliverance seemed to be one of the messages in that sermon that I hadn't really considered from reading Jonah itself.

[Drkshadow03]

So does that mean basically everyone agrees the Flood story is next? Comedian?

[YesNo]

So does that mean basically everyone agrees the Flood story is next? Comedian?

I'm in favor of anything in Genesis, including the Flood. I think the stories there are as fascinating as those in the Hindu Bhagavatam.

I started re-reading The Book of J (translated by David Rosenberg with commentary by Harold Bloom) as an alternate source to the text and commentary provided by The Jewish Study Bible.

From what I understand J's version is the original and the other texts are revisions of her original work. But I'm no scholar in any of this and I'm looking for other perspectives.

[stlukesguild]

Well... somebody post the start of the next book/section to be discussed.

[The Comedian]

So does that mean basically everyone agrees the Flood story is next? Comedian?

Sounds great -- I like the watery theme of the first couple of selections.